date:20060807

Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies.However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick "fill up" and puts into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies (i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy schemebeing discussed is now a possibility sincefast electrical storage could turn ourattention to stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle.- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  But it would add a huge degree of efficiency,If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back
 and include capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker.Here's one person's expiriment: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.phpKirk McLoren wrote: The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non  concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the  hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology  such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have  to muddle through. Kirk */Ron Peacetree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on
 the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this "diesel/electric w/ PV assist" power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the "standard": the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in.
 For applications not as economically constrained, the "exotics" like Li-ion are of course an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of. PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it. With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the amount of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce the biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any of
 the current estimates. Doing this would not only be "green" and conserve our petro-diesel resources for uses that so far they are the only unique source for, such as certain plastics and medical products,  It might also help Us avert the continuing escalation of violence in the Middle East that seems to be at the moment the most likely cause of WWIII. Where do I sign? And how do We get "our leaders" to pursue what seems to be an eminently logical course of action for anyone who loves their children and their planet? Ron Peacetree___
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Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous

2006-08-07 Thread Guag Meister

Hi Keith ;

   -cut-
 These critical remarks should be read in light of
 growing evidence of 
 extremely serious impacts on health, environment and
 the livelihoods 
 of Third World farmers. A European regulatory
 requirement for genetic 
 safety testing, which is not required in Canada or
 the US, has 
 revealed genetic instability in many GM crop
 varieties.
 
 Scientists are finding harmful impacts on soil
 micro-organisms, 
 beneficial insects and laboratory animals exposed to
 genetically 
 modified crops and GE food. Farmers in India are
 committing suicide 
 by the hundreds in Andra Pradesh and other states
 because of GM crop 
 failures.
 (www.navdanya.org/articles/seeds_suicide.htm)
 
 People and animals have become ill and even died
 after consumption or 
 exposure to products containing genetically modified
 organisms. 
 Unlike traditional plant breeding, in genetic
 engineering of crops, 
 unrelated organisms, such as bacteria, are snipped
 apart and sections 
 of their genes inserted into plants with
 unpredictable results. 
  -cut--

While I agree wholeheartedly with the basis of the
post, these types of posts seem to suggest that GM
would be OK if all the problems with the environment
and harmful effects could be solved.

Sorry for repeating myself ad nausium, but GM is still
incredibly dangerous even if there were NO harmful
effects at all and they actually did produce bumper
crops.  Why?

Answer : By purchasing and using GM products, we are
supporting and allowing the GM industry to proliferate
in knowledge, equipment, and people who know how to
use it.  And there has never been a single instance
where a new technology has not been siezed by the
military (and ordinary people as well) and examined
for every possible method to harm and kill people.  In
addition to the military, sadly some people have bad
intentions.  For a small example, consider how many
computer viruses there are. Who writes a computer
virus and for what purpose?  Some are for marketing
and some are solely destructive.  These poeple have
taken a positive force (computers) and turned it into
a highly negative and destructive force.

These posts worry about accidental side effects.  I am
talking about deliberately designing an organism whose
effect will be to kill people (either through disease
or starvation or some other mechanism).

So don't worry so much about the accidental side
effects (which undoubtedly can be significant).  Worry
much more about the deliberate side effects from
militaty usage where the goal is to kill people.  If
the accidental side effects of GM are disastrous, how
much more so will the results of deliberate harmful
and destructive actions by individuals or the
military?

BR
Peter G.
Thailand


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Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?

I don't know as I'd throw out either one.  Even one high eff. PV on a 
sunny day would help.

Man, I almost called you in Conn./NY.  You should have seen me in the 
parking lot at Shaws making fuel!

-Weaver

Michael Redler wrote:


 Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially 
 with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies.

 However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap 
 technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick fill up and puts into 
 question the need for any other on-board energy conversion 
 technologies (i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).

 I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy 
 scheme being discussed is now a possibility since fast electrical 
 storage could turn our attention to stationary sources and not those 
 which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle.

 - Redler

 */Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 But it would add a huge degree of efficiency,

 If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back and include
 capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of
 room up
 top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker.

 Here's one person's expiriment:
 http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.php

 Kirk McLoren wrote:

  The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that
 non
  concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source.
  The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd
 the
  hybrids are gasoline.
  The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology
  such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we
 will have
  to muddle through.
  Kirk
 
  */Ron Peacetree /* wrote:
 
  Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread...
 
  A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/
  photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the
  basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional
  gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at
  acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc.
 
  (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that
  I'm not sure this diesel/electric w/ PV assist power supply idea
  could satisfy.)
 
  A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps
  more if optimized for constant rpm.
 
  The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since
  they provide far more energy per unit weight.
  Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for
  increasing even the efficiency of the standard: the lead-acid
  battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the
  power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in.
  For applications not as economically constrained, the exotics
  like Li-ion are of course an option.
  However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've
 heard of.
 
  PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm
  told by people in the that business that mass production would
  _significantly_ reduce their costs.
 
  This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a
  normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it.
 
  With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as
  to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I
  would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for
  bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the amount
  of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce the
  biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any of the
  current estimates.
 
  Doing this would not only be green and conserve our petro-diesel
  resources for uses that so far they are the only unique source
  for, such as certain plastics and medical products, 
 
  It might also help Us avert the continuing escalation of violence
  in the Middle East that seems to be at the moment the most likely
  cause of WWIII.
 
  Where do I sign? And how do We get our leaders to pursue what
  seems to be an eminently logical course of action for anyone who
  loves their children and their planet?
 
  Ron Peacetree



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Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

Or, it takes a certain degree of madness to be sane in this world.  You 
have to be a touch crazy to be able to be happy and go on with your life 
given what's going on.

-Weaver

Kirk McLoren wrote:

 Of course there is a distribution but there is demarcation. A criteria 
 is set and 4%  +- some deviation qualify as full blown nutters.
 We arent injection molded thermoplastic caricatures. There is a living 
 dynamic. But the author builds a good case that there is a 4% you 
 wouldnt leave alone with your children. Nor should you leave them in 
 office. Or on a board of directors etc etc. poor perception and slow 
 learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit 
 psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath. On their own they 
 are somewhat inhibited. The 4% are worse. Much worse. These 4% are 
 destroying civilization while the sheep look for the good in man. 
 The sheep better deal with the wolves. It isnt getting better on its own.
 http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF
 Read the classic, and the article. Then decide if the author is 
 chicken little and the sky is falling.
  
 Kirk

 */[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 While I haven't read the books, I would be inclined to suspect that
 the population is not divided into a small minority who are 100%
 sociopathic plus a majority who are not at all sociopathic, but
 that there
 is something like a continuum with the pure sociopaths at one end.

 I suspect further that there might be several factors involved,
 perhaps

 * slow social learning; Eysenck's extraversion

 * poor perception of other peoples' feelings

 * indifference to other peoples' feelings


 Doug Woodard
 St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

 On Sat, 5 Aug 2006, Kirk McLoren wrote:

  http://cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm
  Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all.
  If you are born at the right time, with some access to family
 fortune, and you have a special talent for whipping up other
 people's hatred and sense of deprivation, you can arrange to kill
 large numbers of unsuspecting people. With enough money, you can
 accomplish this from far away, and you can sit back safely and
 watch in satisfaction. [...]
  Crazy and frightening - and real, in about 4 percent of the
 population

 [snip]

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Re: [Biofuel] Permits and lots of other problems

also look up reportable quantities in municode

Gary Plencner wrote:

 Theo, I am also in the region you mentioned, here is a link that 
 should help http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca/http://www.biodiesel.org/ 
  the handling and use sections on the .org site should give you lots 
 of help. There is also an excise tax form there that you may want to 
 note the due date and fill out if you have not already.

  I believe that the local bio producers / retailers listed there would 
 be more than happy to give some verbal help too.

 Gary

  

  

 

 *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Theo 
 Chadzichristos
 *Sent:* Sunday, August 06, 2006 1:05 PM
 *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 *Subject:* [Biofuel] Permits and lots of other problems

  

 Hi everyone,



 I am currently in the process of helping to start up a 
 biodiesel production faculty on the border of Wisconsin and Illinois. 
  We were making good progress to setting up to a capacity of 
 1000gallons a day. Unfortunately we have had a recent run in with the 
 cities inspector. They have automatically assumed that biodiesel 
 production it is a very dangerous affair and have sealed our building 
 off in addition to mentioning that we have lack of several permits 
 (which we actually have). What make the situation very difficult is 
 the fact that either the inspector or the town we are in has any 
 knowledge of biodiesel and its production. In addition the inspector 
 himself is a very unfriendly and difficult person to work with 
 especially when I comes to the site at which we are located. I was 
 hoping that someone might have some knowledge of where I can find 
 information with regards guild lines or laws and regulations on 
 running a biodiesel production facility. By that I mean information on 
 a federal or state level that directly addresses things like methanol 
 storage (which we have only a very small amount of), biodiesel 
 storage, and any other information on things like the use of certain 
 processing equipment to fire safety. I have been looking the last two 
 days almost all day and have been very limited partially because it is 
 the weekend and the fact that I cant get a hold of anyone and because 
 of the fact that everything I find has no relation to biodiesel. Any 
 help would be greatly appreciated. THANKS!



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Re: [Biofuel] Permits and lots of other problems

Dunno whether you are commercial or not, but I can tell you that if you 
are, 1000 gallons a day won't sustain you.
Your fuel must meet ASTM standards or you can't sell it.  The ASTM test 
is very expensive.

Piedmont biofuels provides fuel to its members, and buys what it sells 
commercially.

I would second what Keith says - you can contact Piedmont Biofules for a 
consultant.

-Mike

Keith Addison wrote:

Mr Chadzichristos

  

Hi everyone,

   I am currently in the process of helping to start up a 
biodiesel production faculty on the border of Wisconsin and 
Illinois.  We were making good progress to setting up to a capacity 
of 1000gallons a day. Unfortunately we have had a recent run in with 
the cities inspector. They have automatically assumed that biodiesel 
production it is a very dangerous affair and have sealed our 
building off in addition to mentioning that we have lack of several 
permits (which we actually have). What make the situation very 
difficult is the fact that either the inspector or the town we are 
in has any knowledge of biodiesel and its production. In addition 
the inspector himself is a very unfriendly and difficult person to 
work with especially when I comes to the site at which we are 
located. I was hoping that someone might have some knowledge of 
where I can find information with regards guild lines or laws and 
regulations on running a biodiesel production facility. By that I 
mean information on a federal or state level that directly addresses 
things like methanol storage (which we have only a very small amount 
of), biodiesel storage, and any other information on things like the 
use of certain processing equipment to fire safety. I have been 
looking the last two days almost all day and have been very limited 
partially because it is the weekend and the fact that I cant get a 
hold of anyone and because of the fact that everything I find has no 
relation to biodiesel. Any help would be greatly appreciated. THANKS!



1000 gallons a day is a commercial operation, no?

We're not here to provide free consultancy services for commercial 
operations. Of course we're not against commercial operations either, 
but the focus here is small-scale, local community level or 
individual projects, using an Appropriate Technology approach and 
Open-Source development, with the emphasis on sharing and 
collaboration.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think your 
1000-gallon-a-day operation fits that description, in which case you 
should either do your own homework or hire a consultant.

Thankyou.

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner

 



 


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Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous

2006-08-07 Thread lres1

Why not look at removing all left hands and genetically installing all right
arms as most use right arms and thus they are stronger and more use in the
work force. Why not remove and replace the nose so it does not pick up bad
smells, surely the technology is there to GE the body of each individual?
Now who is going to volunteer? Once the money to support GE and GM gets
rolling the ball will not stop.

GE, GM or any other such is just another road to the dark pit no matter how
the picture is painted the abuse is inherent already. Sadly we now have
China into export of GE to very poor countries in the form of
aid/trials/experiments with promises of enormous increases in crop
gains?
Doug

- Original Message - 
From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous


 Hi Keith ;

-cut-
  These critical remarks should be read in light of
  growing evidence of
  extremely serious impacts on health, environment and
  the livelihoods
  of Third World farmers. A European regulatory
  requirement for genetic
  safety testing, which is not required in Canada or
  the US, has
  revealed genetic instability in many GM crop
  varieties.
 
  Scientists are finding harmful impacts on soil
  micro-organisms,
  beneficial insects and laboratory animals exposed to
  genetically
  modified crops and GE food. Farmers in India are
  committing suicide
  by the hundreds in Andra Pradesh and other states
  because of GM crop
  failures.
  (www.navdanya.org/articles/seeds_suicide.htm)
 
  People and animals have become ill and even died
  after consumption or
  exposure to products containing genetically modified
  organisms.
  Unlike traditional plant breeding, in genetic
  engineering of crops,
  unrelated organisms, such as bacteria, are snipped
  apart and sections
  of their genes inserted into plants with
  unpredictable results.
   -cut--

 While I agree wholeheartedly with the basis of the
 post, these types of posts seem to suggest that GM
 would be OK if all the problems with the environment
 and harmful effects could be solved.

 Sorry for repeating myself ad nausium, but GM is still
 incredibly dangerous even if there were NO harmful
 effects at all and they actually did produce bumper
 crops.  Why?

 Answer : By purchasing and using GM products, we are
 supporting and allowing the GM industry to proliferate
 in knowledge, equipment, and people who know how to
 use it.  And there has never been a single instance
 where a new technology has not been siezed by the
 military (and ordinary people as well) and examined
 for every possible method to harm and kill people.  In
 addition to the military, sadly some people have bad
 intentions.  For a small example, consider how many
 computer viruses there are. Who writes a computer
 virus and for what purpose?  Some are for marketing
 and some are solely destructive.  These poeple have
 taken a positive force (computers) and turned it into
 a highly negative and destructive force.

 These posts worry about accidental side effects.  I am
 talking about deliberately designing an organism whose
 effect will be to kill people (either through disease
 or starvation or some other mechanism).

 So don't worry so much about the accidental side
 effects (which undoubtedly can be significant).  Worry
 much more about the deliberate side effects from
 militaty usage where the goal is to kill people.  If
 the accidental side effects of GM are disastrous, how
 much more so will the results of deliberate harmful
 and destructive actions by individuals or the
 military?

 BR
 Peter G.
 Thailand


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Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?

2006-08-07 Thread lres1




Can anyone remember in the mid tolate sixties 
a conversion to flywheel energy in motor bikes and cars?

The test bike was a tad hard to corner due to the 
Gyroscopic effects and did not "lay over" as a standard bike in cornering. 
Needed a hand brake to park as it would not lean onto a stand, again due to the 
gyroscopic effects. Just stood there in the parking lot up right and looking 
real strange with no stand down or visible sign of support.

The car proto was a different kettle of fish with 
many types of rotors available.

Can any one remember these as they were easy to 
re-charge just run onto a dyna tune set up so the rollers ran the rear wheel 
which put power back into the flywheel. The same as the car and bike on braking 
the power went back into the flywheels. Seems battery storage to produce a 
controlled rotary motion via various means is a slight loss comparedto 
maybe a rotary system already running just needing the control which the 
batteries would need as well. Not sure how far the idea got or why it was 
scrapped but seems not to beabout any more.

The concept of the stored energy seemed good at the 
time. No PV cells needed.

Doug 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 10:55 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What 
  will you be driving?
  
  Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially 
  with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent 
  efficiencies.However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the 
  supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick "fill up" and puts 
  into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies 
  (i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).I'd imagine that nearly 
  every renewable and alternative energy schemebeing discussed is now a 
  possibility sincefast electrical storage could turn ourattention 
  to stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated 
  into the vehicle.- RedlerMike Weaver 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  But 
it would add a huge degree of efficiency,If the funds were there I'd 
enhance the battery back and include capacitors. My noodling was with an 
old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre 
room to tinker.Here's one person's expiriment: 
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.phpKirk 
McLoren wrote: The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it 
is arguable that non  concentrating cells are not a viable renewable 
enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and 
it is odd the  hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would 
be better replaced with supercap technology  such as Skeltons (in 
prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have  to muddle 
through. Kirk */Ron Peacetree 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Back on the actual subject 
listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has 
convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on 
the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that 
could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based 
ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of 
performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate 
under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this 
"diesel/electric w/ PV assist" power supply idea could 
satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP 
/ liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. 
The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they 
provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are 
available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the 
efficiency of the "standard": the lead-acid battery (spin off 
company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of 
lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in. For applications not 
as economically constrained, the "exotics" like Li-ion are of course 
an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology 
I've heard of. PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now 
reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass 
production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. 
This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a 
normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing 
it. With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common 
sense as to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately 
I would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized 
for bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the 
amount of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce 
the biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any of 
the current estimates. Doing this would not only be

Re: [Biofuel] FFA Recovery

2006-08-07 Thread Thomas Kelly




Jan,
 Is one of the layers the mineral 
precipitate?
 
Tom

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Jan Lieuwe 
  Bolding 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 5:50 
  PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] FFA Recovery
  
  I have tried to seperate the FFA and Glycerine in the way as Todd 
  Swearingen has described It.
  
  I only get two layers instead of three, can anyone explan this?
  
  When I want to recycle the FFA in the first step of my Two Stage Acid 
  Base proces do I have to add extra Methanol?
  
  
  With kind regards,
  
  
  
  Jan Lieuwe Bolding
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous

2006-08-07 Thread Doug Foskey

On Monday 07 August 2006 8:39, Guag Meister wrote:
I tend to agree with you. Imagine a simple molecule such as caused 
Thalidomide. Even worse imagine a molecule that affected a gene contained in 
a single racial type. (Maybe we should start looking for a distinct gene in 
crooked pollies! ..known as the greed gene.)

regards Doug

 While I agree wholeheartedly with the basis of the
 post, these types of posts seem to suggest that GM
 would be OK if all the problems with the environment
 and harmful effects could be solved.

 Sorry for repeating myself ad nausium, but GM is still
 incredibly dangerous even if there were NO harmful
 effects at all and they actually did produce bumper
 crops.  Why?

 Answer : By purchasing and using GM products, we are
 supporting and allowing the GM industry to proliferate
 in knowledge, equipment, and people who know how to
 use it.  And there has never been a single instance
 where a new technology has not been siezed by the
 military (and ordinary people as well) and examined
 for every possible method to harm and kill people.  In
 addition to the military, sadly some people have bad
 intentions.  For a small example, consider how many
 computer viruses there are. Who writes a computer
 virus and for what purpose?  Some are for marketing
 and some are solely destructive.  These poeple have
 taken a positive force (computers) and turned it into
 a highly negative and destructive force.

 These posts worry about accidental side effects.  I am
 talking about deliberately designing an organism whose
 effect will be to kill people (either through disease
 or starvation or some other mechanism).

 So don't worry so much about the accidental side
 effects (which undoubtedly can be significant).  Worry
 much more about the deliberate side effects from
 militaty usage where the goal is to kill people.  If
 the accidental side effects of GM are disastrous, how
 much more so will the results of deliberate harmful
 and destructive actions by individuals or the
 military?

 BR
 Peter G.
 Thailand


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Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?

2006-08-07 Thread Tom Irwin





Hello Doug and all,

I remember looking into that technology years ago. The concept itself has a lot of merit but itwas a safety and materials nightmare. Imagine a very heavy flywheel spinning at very high RPM's. The energy storage capacity is great but what happens if something breaks. You get lots of high energy parts flying about capable of causing great damage or injury. Does anyone know if they have come up with new shielding. I imagine the bearings are much better today.

Tom



From: lres1 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 07:55:40 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Can anyone remember in the mid tolate sixties a conversion to flywheel energy in motor bikes and cars?

The test bike was a tad hard to corner due to the Gyroscopic effects and did not "lay over" as a standard bike in cornering. Needed a hand brake to park as it would not lean onto a stand, again due to the gyroscopic effects. Just stood there in the parking lot up right and looking real strange with no stand down or visible sign of support.

The car proto was a different kettle of fish with many types of rotors available.

Can any one remember these as they were easy to re-charge just run onto a dyna tune set up so the rollers ran the rear wheel which put power back into the flywheel. The same as the car and bike on braking the power went back into the flywheels. Seems battery storage to produce a controlled rotary motion via various means is a slight loss comparedto maybe a rotary system already running just needing the control which the batteries would need as well. Not sure how far the idea got or why it was scrapped but seems not to beabout any more.

The concept of the stored energy seemed good at the time. No PV cells needed.

Doug 

- Original Message - 
From: Michael Redler 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?

Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies.However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick "fill up" and puts into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies (i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy schemebeing discussed is now a possibility sincefast electrical storage could turn ourattention to stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle.- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But it would add a huge degree of efficiency,If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back and include capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker.Here's one person's expiriment: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.phpKirk McLoren wrote: The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non  concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the  hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology  such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have  to muddle through. Kirk */Ron Peacetree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this "diesel/electric w/ PV assist" power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the "standard": the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in. For applications not as economically constrained, the "exotics" like Li-ion are of course an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of. PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it. With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense

[Biofuel] BD at the pump

2006-08-07 Thread Thomas Kelly




 A little help would be 
appreciated.
 I'm in the US and going 
from NY to Hendersonville, North Carolina. I'm leaving tomorrow (Tues 
8/8).
 I'm trying to locate 
service stations that sell BD at the pump. I will be travelling West on Rt 78 
past Allentown, PA.
Rt 81 S past Harrisburh and Carlisle, PA. Through 
Virginia on Rt 81 S and then Rt 77 S. into NC.
 I've googled "biodiesel 
map" and found what appears to be a locationin North Carolina that is 
described as "private with public access". It sells B100. The map is small, will 
not print, and last updated 2004. Could this be Piedmont?. I seem to remember 
passing an exit for Piedmont College on my last trip. Mike Weaver has referred 
to Piedmont BD in a few of his posts.
 There is also a source in 
Jacksonville, Florida (First Coast Fuels) for the second leg of the 
trip.
 Any info about stations 
that sell BD along the route would be appreciated. I'm going to visit family and 
friends that I don't see enough. Part of the adventure is to make it there and 
back on BD. Don't make me load up the trunk with cubies of 
homebrew.
 
Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?

The best PV cells you can buy commercially (at a reasonable price) are about 20% efficient... The 42% efficient ones are only that efficient under concentration, and I think they currently cost about 100 times as much as the commercial ones. It'll be a few years (Probably still sooner than we get cold fusion going though). Even the 20% efficient ones are still more feasible to include on a car than a full field of canola plants and necessary oil processors to power a diesel engine, I still think that offboard energy collection is more feasible for the current time, whether we're talking about PV or biofuels. Your garage or your yard just has alot more surface area than your car. Consider that there are no natural living organisms that are directly solar powered that also move very fast. There just isn't enough power density in sunlight to support quick movement. Animals are able to move quickly via eating plants which have concentrated the energy in the sun. In the same way, if we want to create movement from sunlight, we have to concentrate it, either via batteries storing PV energy, or biofuels storing photosynthetic energy. Or by greatly reducing the power required to move, like the solar powered race cars. Perhaps we can develop cars like these, but consider that these are only about 1 or 2 horsepower, in a 400 lb car -- and most electric cars are at least 30HP in a 2,500lbs car...
And as to the topic of this thread I think that bicycles is going to be the answer for everything except heavy hauling, which will revert back to biofueled rail. Anything else is just too energy intensive to be kept up long term from either a emissions, technological, or geopolitical perspective. Even if we get super quick charge long range electric cars which are charged from stationary sources, the energy use for cars as we know them is so insanely high (most people use more energy for their car than their entire house) that it just doesn't make much sense.  The question is how long it will take us to be reduced to this carless state. Ironically, I think we will be carless sooner if we stick with SUV's, than if we did invest alot of energy into developing superefficient biodiesel/PV/plug in hybrids.
ZekeOn 8/7/06, Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 
 


Hello Doug and all,

I remember looking into that technology years ago. The concept itself has a lot of merit but itwas a safety and materials nightmare. Imagine a very heavy flywheel spinning at very high RPM's. The energy storage capacity is great but what happens if something breaks. You get lots of high energy parts flying about capable of causing great damage or injury. Does anyone know if they have come up with new shielding. I imagine the bearings are much better today.


Tom



From: lres1 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]To: 
biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 07:55:40 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?

Can anyone remember in the mid tolate sixties a conversion to flywheel energy in motor bikes and cars?

The test bike was a tad hard to corner due to the Gyroscopic effects and did not lay over as a standard bike in cornering. Needed a hand brake to park as it would not lean onto a stand, again due to the gyroscopic effects. Just stood there in the parking lot up right and looking real strange with no stand down or visible sign of support.


The car proto was a different kettle of fish with many types of rotors available.

Can any one remember these as they were easy to re-charge just run onto a dyna tune set up so the rollers ran the rear wheel which put power back into the flywheel. The same as the car and bike on braking the power went back into the flywheels. Seems battery storage to produce a controlled rotary motion via various means is a slight loss comparedto maybe a rotary system already running just needing the control which the batteries would need as well. Not sure how far the idea got or why it was scrapped but seems not to beabout any more.


The concept of the stored energy seemed good at the time. No PV cells needed.

Doug 

- Original Message - 

From: Michael Redler 
To: 
biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 10:55 AM

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?


Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies.However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick fill up and puts into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies (
i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy schemebeing discussed is now a possibility sincefast electrical storage could turn ourattention to stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle.
- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But it

Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: Using biodiesel in newer truck-cars

A fuel dealer sound pretty unbiased. not. I had a diesel mechanic tell me that using biodiesel would ruin my injectors due to lack of lubricity... Uhhh?What US manufactures are you asking about specificially? I think Cummins is the only one left? Or is International still a US company? Jeep uses italian engines, and GM uses Isuzu engines in their diesels.
On 8/6/06, Will Kelleher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello,I met a man the other night who said he knows a fuel dealer in Champagne, IL who says that biodiesel ruins the fuel system in new vehicles and consequently will not recommend its use. I was under the impression that most new vehicles use biodiesel-resistant Viton components. Is it just manufacturer dependent? Does anyone know if the US auto manufacturers use Viton? Is Viton even completely resistant to biodiesel? Lots of questions, but thanks.
Will On 8/2/06, Andres Secco 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:







Dear Steve,
I have been testing biodiesel in newer Hyundai and 
Kia diesel vehicles and have some findings.
First of all the base RPM increases up to 1500 RPM. 
After a week using B50 (50% biodiesel) the normal range comes back. I guess is 
because the computermodifies the air or fuel intake, but it 
happens.
Over 3500 RPM the torque or power of the engine 
seems to decrease, since the engine reacts slowly than when use petroleoum 
diesel, but after one week this changes to the old behaviour.
I have no noticed any change in the milleage per 
gallon. I have noted a subtancial reduction in opacity and the whole emission 
gas pack, which is very strict in my country.
The only problem is the natural rubber in the fuel 
pump and piping of the engine which is deteriorated with biodiesel, but takes a 
time to happen and with a 20% blend takes months, but happens. I have heard that 
newer vehicles comes equipped with Viton rubber and resistant to Biodiesel but I 
am not sure which ones were changed because the technical depts. of the dealers 
do not give much info. Actually none of them have answered my 
e-mails.

Regards


  - Original Message - 
  

From: 
  Steve 
  Barton 
  To: 

biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:15 
  AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Using biodiesel in 
  newer truck-cars
  
  Hello to all
  I'm new to all of this and have read and studied 
  the makeing of biodiesel and have planed out a plane to produce it as well 
  But befor diving into to deep of water I have not found much info about runing 
  home made biodiesel in newer engines. I have a 2005 chevy diesel truck with 
  the 6.6lly engine in it. Any links on the net or info about problems that I 
  might have running biodiesel that I have made myself in a newer computer 
  controled diesels would be nice. Thanks for the help.
  
  Frist post to the list, Steve
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap

Nice.I'd be curious to see any documented changes in efficiency.- RedlerThomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike,When I installed an air conditioner a few weeks ago, I noticed that it didn't drip, and from outside I could hear a bubbling-popping sound. My father-in-law told me that a lot of the new air conditioners use the water they condense to "cool themeselves".Tom- Original Message - From: "Mike Redler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:15 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap "...I just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on the
condenser." Brilliant! I like it. -Redler Juan Boveda wrote: Hello Mike Redler. I did have the same idea by observing big air conditioner units that uses a spray of water on a cooling tower for evaporation of the hot water and recycle the fresh water for cooling the hot side heat exchanger or condenser. In my home air conditioner, I just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on the condenser. Humidity here during summer time seldom drops from 50% and it usually is around 70% if it is not raining. I send the condensed water from the evaporator to be used in hot condenser, the spray was produced by the ac fan usually this happened
after ? hour of working time of the ac unit. If you need more water from start and if your house has running water with enough pressure it is just as simple as put a perforated hose on top of the condenser and adjust the water flow as to almost all the water is evaporated. Just let the water coming out the ac unit to be not more than a few drops per minute. It is better not to waste a lot of running water. It is much efficient to use Water Evaporation. If my memory does not fool me (here I do not have the water humidity psychometric chart) the evaporation of water needs about 520 Kilocalories/Kg of heat to evaporated 1 Kg of water, this means as cooling effect. Consider that the heat capacity of only 1 Kilocalorie for each Kg of water in the
change of 1 degree Celsius. Best Regards. Juan Paraguay___
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[Biofuel] Fwd: UK Observer - Israeli pilots 'deliberately miss' targets

I rec'd this on Sunday and thought some of you might be interested in it. I think it ties into an earlier thread "Israel Guilty of War Crimes" and how the Israeli government has their own version of "The Decider".- RedlerCraig Berman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [iso-discuss] UK Observer - Israeli pilots 'deliberately miss'targetsDate: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 18:41:46 -0400It seems that just as Suzanne Swift and Ehran Watada are refusing to serve in Iraq, some Israeli soldiers are starting to question their orders! We'll have to see if this can become a trend and help end this brutal assault on Lebanon immediately. Interestingly, none of the US media will touch this story (or follow the continued persecution of US war resisters). 
   CraigIsraeli pilots 'deliberately miss' targets  Fliers admit aborting raids on civilian targets as concern grows over the reliability of intelligence  Inigo Gilmore at Hatzor Air Base, Israel  Sunday August 6, 2006  Observer  At least two Israeli fighter pilots have deliberately missed civilian targets in Lebanon as disquiet grows in the military about flawed intelligence, The Observer has learnt. Sources say the pilots were worried that targets had been wrongly identified as Hizbollah facilities.Voices expressing concern over the armed forces' failures are getting louder. One Israeli cabinet minister said last week: 'We gave the army so much money. Why are we getting
 these results?' Last week saw Hizbollah's guerrilla force, dismissed by senior Israeli military officials as 'ragtag', inflict further casualties on one of the world's most powerful armies in southern Lebanon. At least 12 elite troops, the equivalent of Britain's SAS, have already been killed, and by yesterday afternoon Israel's military death toll had climbed to 45.As the bodies pile up, so the Israeli media has begun to turn, accusing the military of lacking the proper equipment, training and intelligence to fight a guerrilla war in Lebanon. Israel's Defence Minister, Amir Peretz, on a tour of the front lines, was confronted by troubled reserve soldiers who told him they
 lacked proper equipment and training.Israel's chief of staff, Major-General Dan Halutz, had vowed to wipe out Hizbollah's missile threat within 10 days. These claims are now being mocked as rockets rain down on Israel's north with ever greater intensity, despite an intense and highly destructive air bombardment.  As one well-connected Israeli expert put it: 'If we have such good information in Lebanon, how come we still don't know the hideout of missiles and launchers?... If we don't know the location of their weapons, why should we
 know which house is a Hizbollah house?'  As international outrage over civilian deaths grows, the spotlight is increasingly turning on Israeli air operations. The Observer has learnt that one senior commander who has been involved in the air attacks in Lebanon has already raised concerns that some of the air force's actions might be considered 'war crimes'.Yonatan Shapiro, a former Blackhawk helicopter pilot dismissed from reserve duty after signing a 'refusenik' letter in 2004, said he had spoken with Israeli F-16 pilots in recent
 days and learnt that some had aborted missions because of concerns about the reliability of intelligence information. According to Shapiro, some pilots justified aborting missions out of 'common sense' and in the context of the Israeli Defence Force's moral code of conduct, which says every effort should be made to avoiding harming civilians.Shapiro said: 'Some pilots told me they have shot at the side of targets because they're afraid people will be there, and they don't trust any more those who give them the coordinates and targets.'  He added: 'One pilot told me he was asked to hit a house on a hill, which was supposed to be a place from where Hizbollah was launching Katyusha missiles. But he was afraid civilians were in the house, so he shot next to the house ...'Pilots are always being told they will be judged on results, but if the results are hundreds of dead civilians while Hizbollah is still able to fire all these rockets, then something is very wrong.'So far none of the pilots has publicly refused to fly missions but some are wobbling, according to Shapiro. He said: 'Their target could be a house firing a cannon at Israel and it could be a house full of children, so it's a real dilemma; it's not black and white. But ... I'm calling on them to refuse, in order save our country from self-destruction.'Meron Rappoport, a former editor at the Israeli daily Haaretz and military analyst, criticised the air force's methods for selecting targets: 'The impression is that information is sometimes lacking. One squadron leader admitted the evidence used to determine attacks on
 cars is sometimes circumstantial - meaning that if people are in an area after Israeli forces warned them to leave, the assumption is that those left

Re: [Biofuel] Permits and lots of other problems

You might check with a race track operator on the methanol storage. Since they are the sources where many people buy 55 gallon drums of methanol for making biodiesel, they obviously have to store 1,000's of gallons of methanol, or at least 100's.
Is the location zoned for industrial/manufacturing use, or what? If it's zoned for retail or residential, you might be out of luck, since it it pretty logical to define your operation as manufacturing. But if it is industrial, I can think of alot of other small industrial shops that involve similar danger. Tanks of acid for paint stripping, solvents for electronics manufactur or plastics molding, etc Heck, even an auto mechanics shop with a big tank of gasoline contaminated used engine oil
On 8/7/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
also look up reportable quantities in municodeGary Plencner wrote: Theo, I am also in the region you mentioned, here is a link that should help 
http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca/http://www.biodiesel.org/the handling and use sections on the .org site should give you lots of help. There is also an excise tax form there that you may want to
 note the due date and fill out if you have not already.I believe that the local bio producers / retailers listed there would be more than happy to give some verbal help too. Gary
  *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *On Behalf Of *Theo Chadzichristos *Sent:* Sunday, August 06, 2006 1:05 PM *To:* 
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Subject:* [Biofuel] Permits and lots of other problems Hi everyone, I am currently in the process of helping to start up a
 biodiesel production faculty on the border of Wisconsin and Illinois.We were making good progress to setting up to a capacity of 1000gallons a day. Unfortunately we have had a recent run in with the
 cities inspector. They have automatically assumed that biodiesel production it is a very dangerous affair and have sealed our building off in addition to mentioning that we have lack of several permits
 (which we actually have). What make the situation very difficult is the fact that either the inspector or the town we are in has any knowledge of biodiesel and its production. In addition the inspector
 himself is a very unfriendly and difficult person to work with especially when I comes to the site at which we are located. I was hoping that someone might have some knowledge of where I can find
 information with regards guild lines or laws and regulations on running a biodiesel production facility. By that I mean information on a federal or state level that directly addresses things like methanol
 storage (which we have only a very small amount of), biodiesel storage, and any other information on things like the use of certain processing equipment to fire safety. I have been looking the last two
 days almost all day and have been very limited partially because it is the weekend and the fact that I cant get a hold of anyone and because of the fact that everything I find has no relation to biodiesel. Any
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Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous

Ah, the absolute Luddite.  First we figure out how to use a rock, then 
somebody wants to kill us by clubbing us with a rock.  We were better 
off running down the gazelles and ripping their throats out with our 
teeth.  ;-




Guag Meister wrote:
 Hi Keith ;
 
-cut-
 These critical remarks should be read in light of
 growing evidence of 
 extremely serious impacts on health, environment and
 the livelihoods 
 of Third World farmers. A European regulatory
 requirement for genetic 
 safety testing, which is not required in Canada or
 the US, has 
 revealed genetic instability in many GM crop
 varieties.

 Scientists are finding harmful impacts on soil
 micro-organisms, 
 beneficial insects and laboratory animals exposed to
 genetically 
 modified crops and GE food. Farmers in India are
 committing suicide 
 by the hundreds in Andra Pradesh and other states
 because of GM crop 
 failures.
 (www.navdanya.org/articles/seeds_suicide.htm)

 People and animals have become ill and even died
 after consumption or 
 exposure to products containing genetically modified
 organisms. 
 Unlike traditional plant breeding, in genetic
 engineering of crops, 
 unrelated organisms, such as bacteria, are snipped
 apart and sections 
 of their genes inserted into plants with
 unpredictable results. 
   -cut--
 
 While I agree wholeheartedly with the basis of the
 post, these types of posts seem to suggest that GM
 would be OK if all the problems with the environment
 and harmful effects could be solved.
 
 Sorry for repeating myself ad nausium, but GM is still
 incredibly dangerous even if there were NO harmful
 effects at all and they actually did produce bumper
 crops.  Why?
 
 Answer : By purchasing and using GM products, we are
 supporting and allowing the GM industry to proliferate
 in knowledge, equipment, and people who know how to
 use it.  And there has never been a single instance
 where a new technology has not been siezed by the
 military (and ordinary people as well) and examined
 for every possible method to harm and kill people.  In
 addition to the military, sadly some people have bad
 intentions.  For a small example, consider how many
 computer viruses there are. Who writes a computer
 virus and for what purpose?  Some are for marketing
 and some are solely destructive.  These poeple have
 taken a positive force (computers) and turned it into
 a highly negative and destructive force.
 
 These posts worry about accidental side effects.  I am
 talking about deliberately designing an organism whose
 effect will be to kill people (either through disease
 or starvation or some other mechanism).
 
 So don't worry so much about the accidental side
 effects (which undoubtedly can be significant).  Worry
 much more about the deliberate side effects from
 militaty usage where the goal is to kill people.  If
 the accidental side effects of GM are disastrous, how
 much more so will the results of deliberate harmful
 and destructive actions by individuals or the
 military?
 
 BR
 Peter G.
 Thailand
 
 
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-- 
--
Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
--
-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness  JKG
 


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Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

Crrraaazy!? What's that?Remember the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? It was actually dangerous to have your emotions (relatively) in balance.- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or, it takes a certain degree of madness to be sane in this world. You have to be a touch crazy to be able to be happy and go on with your life given what's going on.-WeaverKirk McLoren wrote: Of course there is a distribution but there is demarcation. A criteria is set and 4% +- some deviation qualify as full blown nutters. We arent injection molded thermoplastic caricatures. There is a living dynamic. But the author builds a good case that there is a 4% you wouldnt leave alone
with your children. Nor should you leave them in office. Or on a board of directors etc etc. poor perception and slow learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath. On their own they are somewhat inhibited. The 4% are worse. Much worse. These 4% are destroying civilization while the "sheep" look for the good in man. The sheep better deal with the wolves. It isnt getting better on its own. http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF Read the classic, and the article. Then decide if the author is chicken little and the sky is falling. Kirk */[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: While I haven't read the books, I would be inclined to suspect that the population is not divided into a small minority who are 100% sociopathic plus a majority who are not at all sociopathic,
but that there is something like a continuum with the "pure" sociopaths at one end. I suspect further that there might be several factors involved, perhaps * slow social learning; Eysenck's "extraversion" * poor perception of other peoples' feelings * indifference to other peoples' feelings Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Sat, 5 Aug 2006, Kirk McLoren wrote: http://cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all. If you are born at the right time, with some access to family fortune, and you have a special talent for whipping up other people's hatred and sense of deprivation, you can arrange to kill large numbers of unsuspecting people. With enough money, you can accomplish this from far
away, and you can sit back safely and watch in satisfaction. [...] Crazy and frightening - and real, in about 4 percent of the population [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

2006-08-07 Thread Keith Addison

Crrraaazy!? What's that?

Remember the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? It was actually 
dangerous to have your emotions (relatively) in balance.

- Redler

Emotional imbalance is not at all the same as being a 
psycho/sociopath. Psychopaths can't be described as emotionally 
imbalanced.

Anyway, 4% of the population is way too high an estimate, IMHO. This 
is one distortion:

  learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit
  psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath.

I've asked this question before: Is Warren Anderson a psychopathic killer? See:
http://snipurl.com/oxks
[Biofuel] More about Bhopal

In effect yes, but in fact he's just a corporate slave. If you allow 
corporations to behave as theyd like (?), they'll be sociopathic. 
Their nature (?) is to subordinate everything to the bottom line, 
which is inevitably sociopathic. See eg.:

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg62040.html
Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless

Think I'll post this again:

That said, part of my point is that corporations are a reflection 
of those humans
making the big decisions at the top of the corporation.

Not so. That's where we diverge. It's the other way round, but it's 
worse than a reflection. This isn't just my opinion or conjecture, 
it's solidly grounded and well established. It's an important 
subject here, often discussed, there are very good resources in the 
list archives on corporate nature and behaviour.

Did you read the post about Leopold Kohr etc? If not have a read, if you will:
http://snipurl.com/ox8m
[Biofuel] the end of big biodiesel?

Anyway, here's some info on a, um, retired CEO named Warren Anderson 
and a CEO named Michael Parker:
http://snipurl.com/oxks
[Biofuel] More about Bhopal

Please give it a read, it's important to get the background 
straight. The bit about Anderson is towards the end.

Do you think Bhopal was (is) an exception? There are those who 
present a substantial case for the Bhopal disaster being 
business-as-usual, it's a symbol of our times, not an exception. 
There's more in the archives about that too. Union Carbide knowingly 
and deliberately put the lives of an entire Indian city at risk in 
order to save $37.68 per day. The Ford Pinto was $10 each, wasn't 
it? That's all history now? Dream on!

This is what it says about UC CEO Warren Anderson, after describing 
his role in it:

#1 corporate criminal, ex-UC CEO Warren Anderson, an international 
fugitive from charges of culpable homicide and an extradition order 
from the government of India for the past 12 years after jumping 
bail there, was unearthed in 2002 by a UK newspaper and Greenpeace 
living a life of luxury in New York State. American authorities had 
always insisted they did not know his whereabouts. If a team of 
journalists and Greenpeace managed to track down India's most 
wanted man in a matter of days, how seriously have the U.S. 
authorities tried to find him all these years? asked Greenpeace 
campaigner Casey Harrell in the U.S. Greenpeace videotaped Anderson 
and handed him a warrant for his arrest. He denied who he was and 
then ran inside the house. The journalists discovered that 
Anderson's local golf club subscription costs $2700 a year, more 
than five times what Union Carbide's victims in Bhopal got for a 
lifetime of illness and suffering.

Do you think his pals at the golf club think he's a brutal and 
remorseless mass-killer? Or that his wife and kids think that? I'm 
sure they all think he was just doing his job and got a raw deal, 
and so does he.

So who's true nature is he reflecting, Mike? Human nature? His own 
nature? I'm sure he wouldn't poison his own kids. But check out the 
resources at the end of the message above to see what he did to 
other people's kids. Thousands of them, and it's still happening 
right now. Did he do it, or did Union Carbide do it? Is it Dow CEO 
Michael Parker who's continuing the atrocity, or is it Dow - who 
brought us Agent Orange, after all, among other things?

http://www.safe2use.com/ca-ipm/01-05-05.htm
Dow Chemical's Nasty Little Secret - Agent Orange Dump found under 
New Zealand Town

Having read the whole Bhopal post, would you class this particular 
ongoing corporate behaviour as in any way sane by any human 
standards? It's totally psychopathic, right?

But I very much doubt that Warren Anderson is a psychopath. And he 
didn't poison his own children. How about these CEOs though?

http://snipurl.com/oxkx
Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Mercury Levels Rising: Report Release

... across the US, industrial wastes laden with heavy metals and 
other dangerous materials are being used in fertilizers and spread 
over farmland. The process, which is legal, saves dirty industries 
the high costs of disposing of hazardous wastes. Between 1990 and 
1995, 600 companies from 44 different states sent 270 million pounds 
of toxic waste to farms and fertilizer companies across the country.

What's

Re: [Biofuel] Stuck in Connecticut with no Diesel - impromptu blending

sorry, pushed send too soon. The problem that I've heard of from using the RUG/veggie oil mix is that over time is can lead to wax buildup in the tank, because the gasoline doesn't completely dissolve all components of the oil, but can leave the heaviest portions of it behind. This can also occur in SVO setups if you don't have the return and inlets close enough in the diesel tank, and purge the filter to the diesel tank when switching -- a blob of cold congealed veggie oil can form near the return line in the diesel tank in the winter, till the entire tank fills up this actually happened to someone in a F250 diesel truck.
On 8/7/06, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That's basically what DSE is -- well, aside from being a pyramid scam too. I knew someone who ran his VW jetta (old one) for a year or more on a mixture of waste veggie oil and 15% unleaded gas, till he got a proper SVO setup.
On 8/5/06, Mike Weaver 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
YupMarty Phee wrote:What's RUG? (regular unleaded?)Mike Weaver wrote:Had an interesting experience in Conn. on Rte 95 coming home from Mainethis year.I was trying to make New Jersey, where diesel was 
2.79, butfinally got so on fuel low I decided to just go ahead and buy a tankfulin Conn.Pulled into two places advertising diesel and found one closedand one out.Next stop same story.Car was well into the red and the
fuel light had been on for a while.As I didn't fancy being stuck in100 degree heat with no fuel, I pulled into a Shaw's, bought 2 gallonsof cheap veg. oil and poured it in the tank.I added about 15% RUG and
5% pure Isoprop. to the oil.I figure there may have been anywhere fromhalf a gallon to a gallon and a half of diesel in left in the tank.This brought the gauge back up to 1/8th full, and by slowing down to
around 60 mph I got to NJ and filled it.The car ran fine - couldn'tsee any difference.I'd read quite a bit about blending but had been leery of trying it -especially on a new car.I've though about trying it on a used MB 5
banger, or running a 50-50 mix.Anyone else have any experience with it?-Weaver___
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Re: [Biofuel] Stuck in Connecticut with no Diesel - impromptu blending

That's basically what DSE is -- well, aside from being a pyramid scam too. I knew someone who ran his VW jetta (old one) for a year or more on a mixture of waste veggie oil and 15% unleaded gas, till he got a proper SVO setup.
On 8/5/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
YupMarty Phee wrote:What's RUG? (regular unleaded?)Mike Weaver wrote:Had an interesting experience in Conn. on Rte 95 coming home from Mainethis year.I was trying to make New Jersey, where diesel was 
2.79, butfinally got so on fuel low I decided to just go ahead and buy a tankfulin Conn.Pulled into two places advertising diesel and found one closedand one out.Next stop same story.Car was well into the red and the
fuel light had been on for a while.As I didn't fancy being stuck in100 degree heat with no fuel, I pulled into a Shaw's, bought 2 gallonsof cheap veg. oil and poured it in the tank.I added about 15% RUG and
5% pure Isoprop. to the oil.I figure there may have been anywhere fromhalf a gallon to a gallon and a half of diesel in left in the tank.This brought the gauge back up to 1/8th full, and by slowing down to
around 60 mph I got to NJ and filled it.The car ran fine - couldn'tsee any difference.I'd read quite a bit about blending but had been leery of trying it -especially on a new car.I've though about trying it on a used MB 5
banger, or running a 50-50 mix.Anyone else have any experience with it?-Weaver___
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Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?

The state of the art in flywheel storage is I think U of Texas. They have a railgun project there and have developed a "compulsator"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Gun  The United States military is funding railgun experiments. At the University of Texas at Austin Institute for Advanced Technology, military railguns capable of delivering tungsten armor piercing bullets with kinetic energies of nine million joules have been developed [1]. Nine million joules is enough energy to deliver 2 kg of projectile at 3 km/s - at that velocity a tungsten or other dense metal rod could penetrate a tank.  the US Navy plans to deploy railguns with ranges over 250 miles (400 km) on naval vessels as early as 2011.(1)  http://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/Railgun%20Pulsed%20Power%20Program.html  the compulsator stores 40 MJ and can deliver 15 shots without recharging the rotor. The earlier contractual goal , which they met, was 10 shots in 1 second.(mid 1980's)  As you see inertial storage has come a long ways.  http://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/images/PR277.pdf#search='compulsator%20kg.'Still inadequate to power a car though 40 megajoules is only about 11 kilowatt hours.  Kirklres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 Can anyone remember in the mid tolate sixties a conversion to flywheel energy in motor bikes and cars?The test bike was a tad hard to corner due to the Gyroscopic effects and did not "lay over" as a standard bike in cornering. Needed a hand brake to park as it would not lean onto a stand, again due to the gyroscopic effects. Just stood there in the parking lot up right and looking real strange with no stand down or visible sign of support.The car proto was a different kettle of fish with many types of rotors available.Can any one remember these as they were easy to re-charge just run onto a dyna tune set up so the rollers ran the rear wheel which put power back into the flywheel. The same as
 the car and bike on braking the power went back into the flywheels. Seems battery storage to produce a controlled rotary motion via various means is a slight loss comparedto maybe a rotary system already running just needing the control which the batteries would need as well. Not sure how far the idea got or why it was scrapped but seems not to beabout any more.The concept of the stored energy seemed good at the time. No PV cells needed.Doug - Original Message -   From: Michael
 Redler   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 10:55 AM  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies.However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick "fill up" and puts into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies (i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy schemebeing discussed is now a possibility sincefast electrical storage could turn ourattention to
 stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle.- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  But it would add a huge degree of efficiency,If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back and include capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker.Here's one person's expiriment: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.phpKirk McLoren wrote: The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non  concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the  hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap
 technology  such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have  to muddle through. Kirk */Ron Peacetree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this "diesel/electric w/ PV assist" power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should
 be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the "standard": the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the

[Biofuel] interesting page

http://theend.blog.hr/  They start out with an article re building your own H bomb but the video at  (control F this and look for the youtube screen) Evo dajem vam video  its just above the blackhawk comments. Mercedes Sedan -OMGKirkWashington DC is a little too small to be a state,but too large to be an asylum for the mentally deranged. 
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Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap

2006-08-07 Thread Thomas Kelly

Mike,
At the time I thought he
was just kidding.
Icouldn't find the
owner's manual . but it's real hot in my attic right now,
so I didn't look for long.
I got a great deal on the
AC. Someone had returned it to the store no box. They probably didn't like
the sound it made "cooling itself" ... thought it was
broken.

Tom
- Original Message -

From:
Michael Redler

To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 10:26
AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on
the cheap

Nice.

I'd be curious to see any documented changes in efficiency.

- RedlerThomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Mike,When
I installed an air conditioner a few weeks ago, I noticed that it didn't
drip, and from outside I could hear a bubbling-popping sound. My
father-in-law told me that a lot of the new air conditioners use the
water they condense to "cool themeselves".Tom- Original
Message - From: "Mike Redler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To:
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:15
AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap "...I
just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window style ac
unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on the
condenser." Brilliant! I like it.
-Redler Juan Boveda wrote: Hello Mike
Redler. I did have the same idea by observing big
air conditioner units that uses a spray of water on
a cooling tower for evaporation of the hot water and recycle the
fresh water for cooling the hot side heat exchanger or
condenser. In my home air conditioner, I just put a
plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window
style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water
on the condenser. Humidity here during summer time seldom drops
from 50% and it usually is around 70% if it is not
raining. I send the condensed water from the
evaporator to be used in hot condenser, the spray
was produced by the ac fan usually this happened after ? hour
of working time of the ac unit. If you
need more water from start and if your house has running water
with enough pressure it is just as simple as put a perforated
hose on top of the condenser and adjust the water
flow as to almost all the water is evaporated. Just let the
water coming out the ac unit to be not more than a
few drops per minute. It is better not to waste a
lot of running water. It is much efficient to use Water
Evaporation. If my memory does not fool me (here I do not have
the water humidity psychometric chart) the evaporation of water needs
about 520 Kilocalories/Kg of heat to evaporated 1
Kg of water, this means as cooling effect. Consider that the
heat capacity of only 1 Kilocalorie for each Kg of water in the
change of 1 degree Celsius. Best
Regards. Juan Paraguay

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Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap

The SEER should show whether it's more efficient or not. In general, current air conditioners are almost twice as efficient as ones from 10 or 15 years ago, so perhaps that's one thing they did to achieve that.
On 8/7/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:







Mike,
 At the time I thought he 
was just kidding. 
 Icouldn't find the 
owner's manual . but it's real hot in my attic right now, 
so I didn't look for long.
 I got a great deal on the 
AC. Someone had returned it to the store  no box. They probably didn't like 
the sound it made cooling itself ... thought it was 
broken.

 
Tom
- Original Message - 

  
From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: 
biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 10:26 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on 
  the cheap
  
  Nice.
  
  I'd be curious to see any documented changes in efficiency.
  
  - RedlerThomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  Mike,When 
I installed an air conditioner a few weeks ago, I noticed that it didn't 
drip, and from outside I could hear a bubbling-popping sound. My 
father-in-law told me that a lot of the new air conditioners use the 
water they condense to cool themeselves.Tom- Original 
Message - From: Mike Redler To: 
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:15 
AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap ...I 
just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window style ac 
unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on the 
condenser. Brilliant! I like it. 
-Redler Juan Boveda wrote: Hello Mike 
Redler. I did have the same idea by observing big 
air conditioner units that uses  a spray of water on 
a cooling tower for evaporation of the hot water and recycle the 
fresh water for cooling the hot side heat exchanger or 
condenser. In my home air conditioner, I just put a 
plug on the exit hole of the  tray of my window 
style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water  
on the condenser. Humidity here during summer time seldom drops 
from 50% and it usually is around 70% if it is not 
raining. I send the condensed water from the 
evaporator to be used in hot  condenser, the spray 
was produced by the ac fan usually this happened after ? hour  
of working time of the ac unit. If you 
need more water from start and if your house has running water  
with enough pressure it is just as simple as put a perforated 
hose on top of  the condenser and adjust the water 
flow as to almost all the water is evaporated. Just let the 
water coming out the ac unit to be not more than  a 
few drops per minute. It is better not to waste a 
lot of running water. It is much efficient to use Water 
Evaporation. If my memory does not fool me (here I do not have 
the water humidity psychometric chart) the evaporation of water needs 
 about 520 Kilocalories/Kg of heat to evaporated 1 
Kg of water, this means as cooling effect. Consider that the 
heat capacity of only 1 Kilocalorie for each Kg of water in the 
change of 1 degree Celsius. Best 
Regards. Juan Paraguay
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous

So don't worry so much about the accidental sideeffects (which undoubtedly can be significant).Worry
much more about the deliberate side effects frommilitaty usage where the goal is to kill people.Ifthe accidental side effects of GM are disastrous, howmuch more so will the results of deliberate harmful
and destructive actions by individuals or themilitary?Imagine a time when instead of dropping bombs, our military drops genetically modified food aid that induces chemical phsychosis of the entire population of a country with no need to even step foot in it to bring down the government.  One only need look at they current US proxy war with Iran, in which neither US nor Iranian troops are dying, but thousands of lebanese (and also israeli) civillians are being killed, to see that there are people in world who might like such a weapon
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Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

Thats what the author said - that as a result American society has to be somewhat psychotic. Thus we will travel halfway round the world to kill someone but not across the street to vote.KirkMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or, it takes a certain degree of madness to be sane in this world. You have to be a touch crazy to be able to be happy and go on with your life given what's going on.-WeaverKirk McLoren wrote: Of course there is a distribution but there is demarcation. A criteria is set and 4% +- some deviation qualify as full blown nutters. We arent injection molded thermoplastic caricatures. There is a living dynamic. But the author builds a good case that there is a 4% you wouldnt leave alone with your
children. Nor should you leave them in office. Or on a board of directors etc etc. poor perception and slow learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath. On their own they are somewhat inhibited. The 4% are worse. Much worse. These 4% are destroying civilization while the "sheep" look for the good in man. The sheep better deal with the wolves. It isnt getting better on its own. http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF Read the classic, and the article. Then decide if the author is chicken little and the sky is falling. Kirk */[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: While I haven't read the books, I would be inclined to suspect that the population is not divided into a small minority who are 100% sociopathic plus a majority who are not at all sociopathic, but that
there is something like a continuum with the "pure" sociopaths at one end. I suspect further that there might be several factors involved, perhaps * slow social learning; Eysenck's "extraversion" * poor perception of other peoples' feelings * indifference to other peoples' feelings Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
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[Biofuel] was...worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

2006-08-07 Thread AltEnergyNetwork


I've met and had work relations with 4 certifiable
phycopaths in the corporate world as well, even scarier
in non profit co's.  A couple of classic signs;

feigned empathy,
skillfully manipulative using the old divide, conquer
and allienating co workers,
 starting unfounded gossip, public humiliations,
 suspicions and do anything to get to the top
that far exceeds the worse kind of office politics.

They can be charming and quite nice in person, charismatic and seemingly popular
but they have NO ONE's interest at heart but their own. Phycopaths exist in 
every
walk of life, occupy many professions and are often very successful.
I would agree that we all have to be a little crazy to cope with how the world 
is going
but there are more of these people around than one might think.


Just my 2 cents observations from having, had to work with a few
 of them over the years.







regards
tallex




  ---Original Message---
  From: Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and   
 corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic
  Sent: 07 Aug '06 13:40
  
  Crrraaazy!? What's that?
  
  
  Remember the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? It was actually
  dangerous to have your emotions (relatively) in balance.
  
  
  - Redler
  
  
  _MIKE WEAVER [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Or, it takes a certain
  degree of madness to be sane in this world. You
  have to be a touch crazy to be able to be happy and go on with your life
  given what's going on.
  
  -Weaver
  
  Kirk McLoren wrote:
  
   Of course there is a distribution but there is demarcation. A criteria
   is set and 4% +- some deviation qualify as full blown nutters.
   We arent injection molded thermoplastic caricatures. There is a living
   dynamic. But the author builds a good case that there is a 4% you
   wouldnt leave alone  with your children. Nor should you leave them in
   office. Or on a board of directors etc etc. poor perception and slow
   learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit
   psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath. On their own they
   are somewhat inhibited. The 4% are worse. Much worse. These 4% are
   destroying civilization while the sheep look for the good in man.
   The sheep better deal with the wolves. It isnt getting better on its
  own.
   http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF
   Read the classic, and the article. Then decide if the author is
   chicken little and the sky is falling.
  
   Kirk
  
   */[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:
  
   While I haven't read the books, I would be inclined to suspect that
   the population is not divided into a small minority who are 100%
   sociopathic plus a majority who are not at all sociopathic,  but
   that there
   is something like a continuum with the pure sociopaths at one end.
  
   I suspect further that there might be several factors involved,
   perhaps
  
   * slow social learning; Eysenck's extraversion
  
   * poor perception of other peoples' feelings
  
   * indifference to other peoples' feelings
  
  
   Doug Woodard
   St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
  
   On Sat, 5 Aug 2006, Kirk McLoren wrote:
  
http://cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm
Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all.
If you are born at the right time, with some access to family
   fortune, and you have a special talent for whipping up other
   people's hatred and sense of deprivation, you can arrange to kill
   large numbers of unsuspecting people. With enough money, you can
   accomplish this from far  away, and you can sit back safely and
   watch in satisfaction. [...]
Crazy and frightening - and real, in about 4 percent of the
   population
  
   [snip]
  
  
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[Biofuel] power in Queens was out for almost 2 weeks last month - not newsworthy I guess lol

The World's Largest Machine is Breaking Downby Tom Dyson Rikers Island home to 15,000 inmates - is running off back-up generators Hundreds of elderly receive meals-on-wheels. Workers distribute ice at the corner of Ditmars Boulevard and Steinway Street. And pinned to the steel shutter on a non-descript small business, a cardboard sign reads, Closed. No power. Power in Queens was out for almost two weeks last month. Political leaders wanted Governor Pataki to declare a federal disaster area. Mayor Bloomberg visited.
Angry residents mingled with 500 electricians, dozens of ConEd vans, and a pile of spoiled groceries. The power outage in Queens is not an exception. Power outages across the USA are becoming more and more frequent. Power quality is going down dramatically at the utilities, says Barry Papermaster, vice president of strategic marketing at Best Power. In many cities, there is no longer excess capacity on the grid, and customers are seeing brown-outs and black-outs with increasing frequency. Its no secret. The electric grid is based on 1950s-era technology, and new investment in the grid is at levels not seen since the depths of the Great Depression. What engineers call the worlds largest machine is breaking
down There has been no significant investment in the North American transmission grid for three decades, writes Kiril Sokoloff at 13D Research. The Department of Energy calculates that 70% of transmission lines are 25 years or older; 70% of transformers are 25 years or older; and 60% of circuit breakers are over 30 years old. Meanwhile, electricity is more important to America than ever. The digital economy sucks up electricity in ever-greater amounts and power outages cost more money.Electricity is the oxygen of our economy, said one utility CEO. Even President Bush recognizes it: We have modern interstate grids for our phone lines and our highways, he said. Its time for America to build a modern electricity grid. This is all about to become reality thanks to a small piece of government legislation repealing the Public Utility Holding Company Act. The act was signed into law by the President in 2005 and became effective on February 8, 2006. Early investors in this trend stand to make very handsome profits. Before I go any further, Id like to give credit to 13D Research for bringing this story to my attention. Kiril Sokoloff, 13Ds founder, is ultimately responsible for introducing me to many of the investment stories I think about. I read
his reports every week without fail. Check out their website at www.13d.com. Between 1929 and 1936, according to 13D, 53 utility holding companies went bankrupt. Corruption was the problem. Utilities were using their earnings to speculate in diverse and risky businesses. The Feds wanted to stop this. The enactment of PUHCA in 1935 made it illegal for utilities to become involved with businesses from other sectors. Not one utility has filed for bankruptcy since 1935. The new legislation makes it possible for anyone to own a utility again. And it allows utilities to invest in sectors beyond electricity. Guess whos jumping in with both legs? Thats right Warren Buffet. He said hes prepared to spend up to $10 billion shopping for utilities. He also said that he is looking to acquire energy assets around the world and that there is no limit to the money we have to spend. Buffet doesnt like to waste time. This year hes already spent $5.1 billion in cash and assumed $4.3 billion in debt to close a deal on the second-largest electricity provider in Oregon. MacQuarie bank is another example. They agreed to buy Dusquesne Light Holdings of Pittsburg in July. MacQuarie Bank is known for buying income-producing assets like airports and toll roads. 13D Research even thinks cash-rich companies like ExxonMobil, Microsoft, Wal-Mart or GE could enter the sector. Investment implication: The utility industry is about to consolidate and go on a massive spending spree using the new capital now available from outside companies. Right now, the grid is more fragmented than a smashed car window. As I read in 13D, In addition to the 2,000 municipal utilities, there are about 900 electric cooperatives, approximately 200 shareholder-owned utilities, and roughly 840 power marketers, collectively operating about 6,000 power plants. In a few years, says one expert, the whole industry could boil down to less than a dozen major players. Plus, huge amounts of money will be spent on capital investment and infrastructure. Were talking TRILLIONS. PriceWaterhouseCoopers estimates $12.7 trillion will be invested over the next 25 years as electricity consumption doubles. The Energy Information Agency says $10 trillion.
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Re: [Biofuel] was...worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

Tallex knows my old boss?On 8/7/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:I've met and had work relations with 4 certifiablephycopaths in the corporate world as well, even scarier
in non profit co's.A couple of classic signs;feigned empathy,skillfully manipulative using the old divide, conquerand allienating co workers, starting unfounded gossip, public humiliations, suspicions and do anything to get to the top
that far exceeds the worse kind of office politics.They can be charming and quite nice in person, charismatic and seemingly popularbut they have NO ONE's interest at heart but their own. Phycopaths exist in every
walk of life, occupy many professions and are often very successful.I would agree that we all have to be a little crazy to cope with how the world is goingbut there are more of these people around than one might think.
Just my 2 cents observations from having, had to work with a few of them over the years.regardstallex---Original Message---From: Michael Redler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathicSent: 07 Aug '06 13:40
Crrraaazy!? What's that?Remember the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? It was actuallydangerous to have your emotions (relatively) in balance.- Redler
_MIKE WEAVER [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Or, it takes a certaindegree of madness to be sane in this world. Youhave to be a touch crazy to be able to be happy and go on with your life
given what's going on.-WeaverKirk McLoren wrote: Of course there is a distribution but there is demarcation. A criteria is set and 4% +- some deviation qualify as full blown nutters.
We arent injection molded thermoplastic caricatures. There is a living dynamic. But the author builds a good case that there is a 4% you wouldnt leave alonewith your children. Nor should you leave them in
office. Or on a board of directors etc etc. poor perception and slow learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath. On their own they
are somewhat inhibited. The 4% are worse. Much worse. These 4% are destroying civilization while the sheep look for the good in man. The sheep better deal with the wolves. It isnt getting better on its
own. http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF Read the classic, and the article. Then decide if the author is chicken little and the sky is falling.
Kirk */dwoodard@becon.org/* wrote: While I haven't read the books, I would be inclined to suspect that
the population is not divided into a small minority who are 100% sociopathic plus a majority who are not at all sociopathic,but that there is something like a continuum with the pure sociopaths at one end.
I suspect further that there might be several factors involved, perhaps * slow social learning; Eysenck's extraversion * poor perception of other peoples' feelings
* indifference to other peoples' feelings Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Sat, 5 Aug 2006, Kirk McLoren wrote:
http://cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all.
If you are born at the right time, with some access to family fortune, and you have a special talent for whipping up other people's hatred and sense of deprivation, you can arrange to kill
large numbers of unsuspecting people. With enough money, you can accomplish this from faraway, and you can sit back safely and watch in satisfaction. [...] Crazy and frightening - and real, in about 4 percent of the
population [snip]___Biofuel mailing list[LINK: compose.php?to=
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Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap

2006-08-07 Thread Paul S Cantrell

Enthalpy, enthalpy, ENTHALPY!Water is often used to cool Condensers in industrial and commercial chillers. At the college I work for, we have several water-cooled and several air-cooled chillers. Water-cooled are more efficient at larger tonnages (100 tons) than air-cooled. (see
http://www.aceee.org/ogeece/ch3_index.htm ) Of course, water cost has to be taken into account and the cool condensate drains should be redirected to the water cooling towers make-up water supply. That water is 50-60 degees F and generally requires less chemical treatment than city water.
As an aside, we have an air-cooled chiller that is 'circling the drain' in terms of life cycle and we spray water on the condenser coils to 'help' it along a bit until we can fund a new chiller. At home, whenever I use the hose, I spray the remaining pressure in the hose on our condensing unit rather than 'waste' it. A clean condenser works better anyway. I try to keep the leaves out of there and vines and plants away so it can get proper airflow. Also, it is in the shade, which is an important point that most people overlook. The units sitting in the sun have to work longer and harder to expell the heat. My unit sits on the north side of the house and is further shaded by a Holly bush and a birch tree. I also keep a small gallon tub right next to the unit that the condensate drain runs into. When the RH% is low enough, the fan evaporates water off of the tub.
If you live in a heavy-A/C climate like us, you can add a desuperheater to the unit, which pulls off heat for pre-heating the domestic hot water going into your water heater.Mike, as for low-tech, as long as humidity isn't a concern indoors (it is here in coastal South Carolina) the bath tub idea isn't all bad. My concern is 'wasting' 50 gallons of potable water with its embodied energy and chemicals down the sewer drain. I'd much rather use that water for irrigation or pour it/pipe it onto a hot roof for evaporative cooling there. Or, use it as wash water for your BD. You could use rain water and/or greywater, too, so your water company won't have anything to complain or bill you for.
In the wintertime, I always plug up the bathtub when I take a shower and let it sit until it is nearly ambient. Warms the air and adds humidity.I'm going to look into the attic heat pump idea some more. I found
http://www.solarattic.com already. Looks like the radiator from an 84 Ford pickup with a fan attached to the pool pump.On 8/4/06,
Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Yea. Juan's idea got my attention too.

The inefficiencies due to the latent heat of vaporization go poof!
since the final phase of that H2O is...humidity, right? That is to say,
in a perfect world, vapor turned to condensation then back to vapor
again after throwing it on the condenser (understanding that that there
is no free lunch - 2nd law of thermo.).

Re: Does that mean that the list is closed to the bourgeois?

:-)

-Redler-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switchThe genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them which we are missing. - Gamal Abdel Nasser
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Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap

The big thing they did was add some coil. They used to act like it was made of gold. But then - who pays the electric bill? Most people just look at the cost of acquisition. Years ago I found the only people who bought efficiency were business people. Few exceptions. Now consumers look at it. So we are making progress but too slowly to suit me. KirkZeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The SEER should show whether it's more efficient or not. In general, current air conditioners are almost twice as efficient as ones from 10 or 15 years ago, so perhaps that's one thing they did to achieve that. On 8/7/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Mike, At the time I thought he was just kidding.Icouldn't find the owner's manual . but it's real hot in my attic right now, so I didn't look for long. I got a great deal on the AC. Someone had returned it to the store no box. They probably didn't like the sound it made "cooling itself" ... thought it was broken. Tom - Original
Message - From: Michael Redler To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheapNice.I'd be curious to see any documented changes in efficiency.- RedlerThomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.
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Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: Using biodiesel in newer truck-cars

2006-08-07 Thread Will Kelleher

Zeke,By US manufacturers I was referring to auto manufacturers, not just diesel engines. I have an old Ford with an International engine. I'm sure the fuel system would dissolve after a few months of biodiesel.
WillOn 8/7/06, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A fuel dealer sound pretty unbiased. not. I had a diesel mechanic tell me that using biodiesel would ruin my injectors due to lack of lubricity... Uhhh?What US manufactures are you asking about specificially? I think Cummins is the only one left? Or is International still a US company? Jeep uses italian engines, and GM uses Isuzu engines in their diesels.
On 8/6/06, Will Kelleher 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello,I met a man the other night who said he knows a fuel dealer in Champagne, IL who says that biodiesel ruins the fuel system in new vehicles and consequently will not recommend its use. I was under the impression that most new vehicles use biodiesel-resistant Viton components. Is it just manufacturer dependent? Does anyone know if the US auto manufacturers use Viton? Is Viton even completely resistant to biodiesel? Lots of questions, but thanks.
Will On 8/2/06, Andres Secco 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:







Dear Steve,
I have been testing biodiesel in newer Hyundai and 
Kia diesel vehicles and have some findings.
First of all the base RPM increases up to 1500 RPM. 
After a week using B50 (50% biodiesel) the normal range comes back. I guess is 
because the computermodifies the air or fuel intake, but it 
happens.
Over 3500 RPM the torque or power of the engine 
seems to decrease, since the engine reacts slowly than when use petroleoum 
diesel, but after one week this changes to the old behaviour.
I have no noticed any change in the milleage per 
gallon. I have noted a subtancial reduction in opacity and the whole emission 
gas pack, which is very strict in my country.
The only problem is the natural rubber in the fuel 
pump and piping of the engine which is deteriorated with biodiesel, but takes a 
time to happen and with a 20% blend takes months, but happens. I have heard that 
newer vehicles comes equipped with Viton rubber and resistant to Biodiesel but I 
am not sure which ones were changed because the technical depts. of the dealers 
do not give much info. Actually none of them have answered my 
e-mails.

Regards


  - Original Message - 
  


From: 
  Steve 
  Barton 
  To: 


biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:15 
  AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Using biodiesel in 
  newer truck-cars
  
  Hello to all
  I'm new to all of this and have read and studied 
  the makeing of biodiesel and have planed out a plane to produce it as well 
  But befor diving into to deep of water I have not found much info about runing 
  home made biodiesel in newer engines. I have a 2005 chevy diesel truck with 
  the 6.6lly engine in it. Any links on the net or info about problems that I 
  might have running biodiesel that I have made myself in a newer computer 
  controled diesels would be nice. Thanks for the help.
  
  Frist post to the list, Steve
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: Using biodiesel in newer truck-cars

Don't know about international, but I have a friend running biodiesel in a 1985 GM 6.5 liter diesel, haven't heard of any problems yet. He did have international before that, but it was too hard to work on. glow plugs hidden inside the valve covers or something... My old VW fuel system is rapidly dissolving under B100. Blew two of the injector return lines yesterday afternoon, the rubber is more like sticky black goo now. guess it's time to buy some viton.
On 8/7/06, Will Kelleher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Zeke,By US manufacturers I was referring to auto manufacturers, not just diesel engines. I have an old Ford with an International engine. I'm sure the fuel system would dissolve after a few months of biodiesel.

WillOn 8/7/06, Zeke Yewdall 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A fuel dealer sound pretty unbiased. not. I had a diesel mechanic tell me that using biodiesel would ruin my injectors due to lack of lubricity... Uhhh?What US manufactures are you asking about specificially? I think Cummins is the only one left? Or is International still a US company? Jeep uses italian engines, and GM uses Isuzu engines in their diesels.
On 8/6/06, Will Kelleher 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello,I met a man the other night who said he knows a fuel dealer in Champagne, IL who says that biodiesel ruins the fuel system in new vehicles and consequently will not recommend its use. I was under the impression that most new vehicles use biodiesel-resistant Viton components. Is it just manufacturer dependent? Does anyone know if the US auto manufacturers use Viton? Is Viton even completely resistant to biodiesel? Lots of questions, but thanks.
Will On 8/2/06, Andres Secco 


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:







Dear Steve,
I have been testing biodiesel in newer Hyundai and 
Kia diesel vehicles and have some findings.
First of all the base RPM increases up to 1500 RPM. 
After a week using B50 (50% biodiesel) the normal range comes back. I guess is 
because the computermodifies the air or fuel intake, but it 
happens.
Over 3500 RPM the torque or power of the engine 
seems to decrease, since the engine reacts slowly than when use petroleoum 
diesel, but after one week this changes to the old behaviour.
I have no noticed any change in the milleage per 
gallon. I have noted a subtancial reduction in opacity and the whole emission 
gas pack, which is very strict in my country.
The only problem is the natural rubber in the fuel 
pump and piping of the engine which is deteriorated with biodiesel, but takes a 
time to happen and with a 20% blend takes months, but happens. I have heard that 
newer vehicles comes equipped with Viton rubber and resistant to Biodiesel but I 
am not sure which ones were changed because the technical depts. of the dealers 
do not give much info. Actually none of them have answered my 
e-mails.

Regards


  - Original Message - 
  



From: 
  Steve 
  Barton 
  To: 



biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:15 
  AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Using biodiesel in 
  newer truck-cars
  
  Hello to all
  I'm new to all of this and have read and studied 
  the makeing of biodiesel and have planed out a plane to produce it as well 
  But befor diving into to deep of water I have not found much info about runing 
  home made biodiesel in newer engines. I have a 2005 chevy diesel truck with 
  the 6.6lly engine in it. Any links on the net or info about problems that I 
  might have running biodiesel that I have made myself in a newer computer 
  controled diesels would be nice. Thanks for the help.
  
  Frist post to the list, Steve
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] was...worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

Amen brother. And they tend to gravitate to the top because they are free to do some cold blooded stuff. They need to be exposed, recognized and excluded. That means the sheeple have to open their eyes.KirkAltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've met and had work relations with 4 certifiablephycopaths in the corporate world as well, even scarierin non profit co's. A couple of classic signs;feigned empathy,skillfully manipulative using the old divide, conquerand allienating co workers,starting unfounded gossip, public humiliations,suspicions and do anything to get to the topthat far exceeds the worse kind of office politics.They can be charming and quite nice in person, charismatic and seemingly
popularbut they have NO ONE's interest at heart but their own. Phycopaths exist in everywalk of life, occupy many professions and are often very successful.I would agree that we all have to be a little crazy to cope with how the world is goingbut there are more of these people around than one might think.Just my 2 cents observations from having, had to work with a fewof them over the years.regardstallex ---Original Message--- From: Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic Sent: 07 Aug '06 13:40 Crrraaazy!? What's that? Remember the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? It was actually dangerous to have your emotions (relatively) in balance. - Redler
_MIKE WEAVER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>_ wrote: Or, it takes a certain degree of madness to be sane in this world. You have to be a touch crazy to be able to be happy and go on with your life given what's going on. -Weaver Kirk McLoren wrote: Of course there is a distribution but there is demarcation. A criteria is set and 4% +- some deviation qualify as full blown nutters. We arent injection molded thermoplastic caricatures. There is a living dynamic. But the author builds a good case that there is a 4% you wouldnt leave alone with your children. Nor should you leave them in office. Or on a board of directors etc etc. poor perception and slow learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath. On their own they are somewhat
inhibited. The 4% are worse. Much worse. These 4% are destroying civilization while the "sheep" look for the good in man. The sheep better deal with the wolves. It isnt getting better on its own. http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF Read the classic, and the article. Then decide if the author is chicken little and the sky is falling. Kirk */[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: While I haven't read the books, I would be inclined to suspect that the population is not divided into a small minority who are 100% sociopathic plus a majority who are not at all sociopathic, but that there is something like a continuum with the "pure" sociopaths at one end. I suspect further that there might be several factors involved, perhaps
* slow social learning; Eysenck's "extraversion" * poor perception of other peoples' feelings * indifference to other peoples' feelingsDoug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Sat, 5 Aug 2006, Kirk McLoren wrote:http://cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all. If you are born at the right time, with some access to family fortune, and you have a special talent for whipping up other people's hatred and sense of deprivation, you can arrange to kill large numbers of unsuspecting people. With enough money, you can accomplish this from far away, and you can sit back safely and watch in satisfaction. [...] Crazy
and frightening - and real, in about 4 percent of the population [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list [LINK: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel@sustainablelists.org [LINK: http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: [LINK: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html] http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): [LINK: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/] http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Get your daily alternative energy newsAlternate
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Re: [Biofuel] was.. was...worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

2006-08-07 Thread AltEnergyNetwork



Hey..funny..;-) Seriously, even if the percentage is 2 percent or even one 
percent
it stands to reason that there are phycopaths that work in government and 
pretty well every
other profession. You can't lock them up unless they commit crimes (or get 
caught), and most
are very skillfull at hiding their ways.

regards
tallex

  ---Original Message---
  From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] was...worth reading -an insight into politics and 
 corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic
  Sent: 07 Aug '06 16:56
  
  Tallex knows my old boss?
  
  
  On 8/7/06, ALTENERGYNETWORK [LINK:
  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:
  I've met and had work relations with 4 certifiable
  phycopaths in the corporate world as well, even scarier
  in non profit co's.  A couple of classic signs;
  
  feigned empathy,
  skillfully manipulative using the old divide, conquer
  and allienating co workers,
  starting unfounded gossip, public humiliations,
  suspicions and do anything to get to the top
  that far exceeds the worse kind of office politics.
  
  They can be charming and quite nice in person, charismatic and seemingly
  popular
  but they have NO ONE's interest at heart but their own. Phycopaths exist
  in every
  walk of life, occupy many professions and are often very successful.
  I would agree that we all have to be a little crazy to cope with how the
  world is going
  but there are more of these people around than one might think.
  
  
  Just my 2 cents observations from having, had to work with a few
  of them over the years.
  
  
  regards
  tallex
  
  
---Original Message---
From: Michael Redler  [LINK: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and
  corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic
Sent: 07 Aug '06 13:40
  
Crrraaazy!? What's that?
  
  
Remember the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? It was actually
dangerous to have your emotions (relatively) in balance.
  
  
- Redler
  
  
_MIKE WEAVER [LINK: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_
  wrote: Or, it takes a certain
degree of madness to be sane in this world. You
have to be a touch crazy to be able to be happy and go on with your
  life
given what's going on.
  
-Weaver
  
Kirk McLoren wrote:
  
 Of course there is a distribution but there is demarcation. A
  criteria
 is set and 4% +- some deviation qualify as full blown nutters.
 We arent injection molded thermoplastic caricatures. There is a
  living
 dynamic. But the author builds a good case that there is a 4% you
 wouldnt leave alone  with your children. Nor should you leave them in
  
 office. Or on a board of directors etc etc. poor perception and slow
 learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit
 psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath. On their own
  they
 are somewhat inhibited. The 4% are worse. Much worse. These 4% are
 destroying civilization while the sheep look for the good in man.
 The sheep better deal with the wolves. It isnt getting better on its
own.
 [LINK: http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF]
  http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF
 Read the classic, and the article. Then decide if the author is
 chicken little and the sky is falling.

 Kirk

 */[EMAIL PROTECTED]: http://becon.org/*] becon.org/* wrote:

 While I haven't read the books, I would be inclined to suspect that
 the population is not divided into a small minority who are 100%
 sociopathic plus a majority who are not at all sociopathic,  but
 that there
 is something like a continuum with the pure sociopaths at one end.

 I suspect further that there might be several factors involved,
 perhaps

 * slow social learning; Eysenck's extraversion

 * poor perception of other peoples' feelings

 * indifference to other peoples' feelings


 Doug Woodard
 St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

 On Sat, 5 Aug 2006, Kirk McLoren wrote:

  [LINK: http://cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm]
  http://cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm
  Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all.
  If you are born at the right time, with some access to family
 fortune, and you have a special talent for whipping up other
 people's hatred and sense of deprivation, you can arrange to kill
 large numbers of unsuspecting people. With enough money, you can
 accomplish this from far  away, and you can sit back safely and
 watch in satisfaction. [...]
  Crazy and frightening - and real, in about 4 percent of the
 population

 [snip]
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Stuck in Connecticut with no Diesel - impromptu blending

as it was close to 100 f that day I doubt I even needed much RUG!

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

 sorry, pushed send too soon. 

 The problem that I've heard of from using the RUG/veggie oil mix is 
 that over time is can lead to wax buildup in the tank, because the 
 gasoline doesn't completely dissolve all components of the oil, but 
 can leave the heaviest portions of it behind.  This can also occur in 
 SVO setups if you don't have the return and inlets close enough in the 
 diesel tank, and purge the filter to the diesel tank when switching -- 
 a blob of cold congealed veggie oil can form near the return line in 
 the diesel tank in the winter, till the entire tank fills up  this 
 actually happened to someone in a F250 diesel truck.

 On 8/7/06, *Zeke Yewdall* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 That's basically what DSE is -- well, aside from being a pyramid
 scam too.   I knew someone who ran his VW jetta (old one) for a
 year or more on a mixture of waste veggie oil and 15% unleaded
 gas, till he got a proper SVO setup.


 On 8/5/06, *Mike Weaver*  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Yup

 Marty Phee wrote:

What's RUG? (regular unleaded?)

Mike Weaver wrote:


Had an interesting experience in Conn. on Rte 95 coming home
 from Maine
this year.  I was trying to make New Jersey, where diesel was
 2.79, but
finally got so on fuel low I decided to just go ahead and buy
 a tankful
in Conn.  Pulled into two places advertising diesel and found
 one closed
and one out.  Next stop same story.  Car was well into the
 red and the
fuel light had been on for a while.  As I didn't fancy being
 stuck in
100 degree heat with no fuel, I pulled into a Shaw's, bought
 2 gallons
of cheap veg. oil and poured it in the tank.  I added about
 15% RUG and
5% pure Isoprop. to the oil.  I figure there may have been
 anywhere from
half a gallon to a gallon and a half of diesel in left in the
 tank.
This brought the gauge back up to 1/8th full, and by slowing
 down to
around 60 mph I got to NJ and filled it.  The car ran fine -
 couldn't
see any difference.

I'd read quite a bit about blending but had been leery of
 trying it -
especially on a new car.  I've though about trying it on a
 used MB 5
banger, or running a 50-50 mix.


Anyone else have any experience with it?

-Weaver

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[Biofuel] was...was...worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

2006-08-07 Thread AltEnergyNetwork







There was a Canadian phycologist or prison phychiatrist, I don't remember his 
name
but he developed a standard test for evaluating prisoners that could be deemed
phycopaths. It is now used as a standard test in many Canadian and most U. S. 
prisons to
determine risk assessment of prisoners. A slightly different version of the 
test is being
 considered for use in schools.
It has been pretty contraversial after having labeled a couple of prisoners 
unfairly.
Being labeled a phycopath certainly doesn't look good on a job application
 though many of the real ones slip through
the process undetected and rise through the ranks.





regards
tallex


  ---Original Message---
  From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] was...worth reading -an insight into politics and 
 corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic
  Sent: 07 Aug '06 17:07
  
  Amen brother. And they tend to gravitate to the top because they are free
  to do some cold blooded stuff.
  
  They need to be exposed, recognized and excluded.
  
  That means the sheeple have to open their eyes.
  
  
  Kirk
  
  _ALTENERGYNETWORK [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote:
  I've met and had work relations with 4 certifiable
  phycopaths in the corporate world as well, even scarier
  in non profit co's. A couple of classic signs;
  
  feigned empathy,
  skillfully manipulative using the old divide, conquer
  and allienating co workers,
  starting unfounded gossip, public humiliations,
  suspicions and do anything to get to the top
  that far exceeds the worse kind of office politics.
  
  They can be charming and quite nice in person, charismatic and seemingly
  popular
  but they have NO ONE's interest at heart but their own. Phycopaths exist
  in every
  walk of life, occupy many professions and are often very successful.
  I would agree that we all have to be a little crazy to cope with how the
  world is going
  but there are more of these people around than one might think.
  
  
  Just my 2 cents observations from having, had to work with a few
  of them over the years.
  
  
  regards
  tallex
  
  
   ---Original Message---
   From: Michael Redler
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and
  corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic
   Sent: 07 Aug '06 13:40
  
   Crrraaazy!? What's that?
  
  
   Remember the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? It was actually
   dangerous to have your emotions (relatively) in balance.
  
  
   - Redler
  
  
   _MIKE WEAVER _ wrote: Or, it takes a certain
   degree of madness to be sane in this world. You
   have to be a touch crazy to be able to be happy and go on with your life
   given what's going on.
  
   -Weaver
  
   Kirk McLoren wrote:
  
Of course there is a distribution but there is demarcation. A criteria
is set and 4% +- some deviation qualify as full blown nutters.
We arent injection molded thermoplastic caricatures. There is a living
dynamic. But the author builds a good case that there is a 4% you
wouldnt leave alone with your children. Nor should you leave them in
office. Or on a board of directors etc etc. poor perception and slow
learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit
psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath. On their own they
are somewhat  inhibited. The 4% are worse. Much worse. These 4% are
destroying civilization while the sheep look for the good in man.
The sheep better deal with the wolves. It isnt getting better on its
   own.
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF
Read the classic, and the article. Then decide if the author is
chicken little and the sky is falling.
   
Kirk
   
*/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:
   
While I haven't read the books, I would be inclined to suspect that
the population is not divided into a small minority who are 100%
sociopathic plus a majority who are not at all sociopathic, but
that there
is something like a continuum with the pure sociopaths at one end.
   
I suspect further that there might be several factors involved,
perhaps

* slow social learning; Eysenck's extraversion
   
* poor perception of other peoples' feelings
   
* indifference to other peoples' feelings
   
   
Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
   
On Sat, 5 Aug 2006, Kirk McLoren wrote:
   
 http://cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm
 Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all.
 If you are born at the right time, with some access to family
fortune, and you have a special talent for whipping up other
people's hatred and sense of deprivation, you can arrange to kill
large numbers of unsuspecting people. With enough money, you can
accomplish this from far away, and you can sit back safely and
watch in satisfaction. [...]
 Crazy  and frightening - and real, in about 4 percent of the

[Biofuel] Astroturf

Not new though see Kuwait comment.The gvt isnt concerned about what you think. They have created what you think.Kirk++| PR Firm Behind Al Gore YouTube Spoof? || from the new-intarweb-trolls dept. || posted by ScuttleMonkey on Sunday August 06, @18:11 (Republicans)|| http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/06/209244 |++mytrip writes to tell us ABC News is reporting that a supposed amateurvideo posted
to YouTube.com may have actually been designed and posted bya Republican [0]public relations firm called DCI. From the article:"Public relations firms have long used computer technology to createbogus grassroots campaigns, which are called 'Astroturf.' Now these firmsare being hired to push illusions on the Internet to create the falseimpression of real people blogging, e-mailing and making films."Discuss this story at: http://politics.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=06/08/06/209244Links: 0. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2273111page=1 In fact, the most emotionally moving testimony on October 10 came from a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl, known only by her first name of Nayirah. According to the Caucus, Nayirah's full name was being kept confidential to prevent Iraqi reprisals against her family in occupied Kuwait. Sobbing, she described what she had seen with her own eyes in a hospital in Kuwait City. Her written testimony was passed out in a media kit prepared by Citizens for a Free Kuwait. "I volunteered at the al-Addan hospital," Nayirah said. "While I was there, I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns, and go into the room where . . . babies were in incubators. They took the babies out of the incubators, took the incubators, and left the babies on the cold floor to die."83Three months passed between Nayirah's testimony and the start of the
war. During those months, the story of babies torn from their incubators was repeated over and over again. President Bush told the story. It was recited as fact in Congressional testimony, on TV and radio talk shows, and at the UN Security Council. "Of all the accusations made against the dictator," MacArthur observed, "none had more impact on American public opinion than the one about Iraqi soldiers removing 312 babies from their incubators and leaving them to die on the cold hospital floors of Kuwait City."84At the Human Rights Caucus, however, Hill Knowlton and Congressman Lantos had failed to reveal that Nayirah was a member of the Kuwaiti Royal Family. Her father, in fact, was Saud Nasir al-Sabah, Kuwait's Ambassador to the US, who sat listening in the hearing room during her testimony. The Caucus also failed to reveal that HK vice-president Lauri Fitz-Pegado had coached Nayirah in what even the Kuwaitis' own investigators later
confirmed was false testimony.
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Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

2006-08-07 Thread Keith Addison

Hi Kirk

Thats what the author said - that as a result American society has 
to be somewhat psychotic.

There's never been a phenomenon such as American society before, no 
society has ever been subjected to such intense manipulation as 
Americans have been especially over the last 30 years:

More money was spent on advertising in 2005 than ever before -- 
$570 billion, about half of which was spent in the United States. 
The global figure is 11 times more than was spent in 1950, measured 
in constant dollars.

Tip of the iceberg, it's not just the budgets, nor even the invisible 
part of the budgets - the scope, spread and reach of the opinion 
manufacturing industry is unprecedented, it's massively focused on 
the US, and most Americans are unaware of it, and of the dissonance 
between what they *know* and the reality. That's one definition of 
being nuts. How many Americans still think the WMDs were found, is it 
still a majority? I think so:

A Harris Poll released July 21 found that a full 50 percent of U.S. 
respondents - up from 36 percent last year - said they believe Iraq 
did have the forbidden arms when U.S. troops invaded in March 2003, 
an attack whose stated purpose was elimination of supposed WMD. Other 
polls also have found an enduring American faith in the WMD story.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060806/ap_on_re_us/iraq_believing_wmd;_yl 
t=Alb.B3Q3w34T_AVb3V7thKis0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-
Half of U.S. still believes Iraq had WMD - Yahoo! News

Faith. Hm. It says: People tend to become independent of reality 
in these circumstances, says opinion analyst Steven Kull.

You said a few days ago most of the population is hypnotized - I am 
not sure how you would deprogram them. I have to agree.

Thus we will travel halfway round the world to kill someone but not 
across the street to vote.

Vote? In the US? Wouldn't that be another kind of madness? Einstein 
defined insanity as the belief that doing the same thing over and 
over and over again will yield different results. Wouldn't that apply 
to voting in the US these days? I mean, even it worked, vote for 
whom, the other business party? Vote for change? Not on the menu. 
Rather than face realities Americans say the voter turn-outs are so 
low because people are apathetic, but it's more likely the non-voters 
are simply being realistic.

Remember this?

People of the lie:
http://www.amasci.com/maglev/levbill1.html
The Pathological Dishonesty Disease

And this?

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/Mass-Delusion-Neurobiology11jan05.htm
JASON BRADFORD / Energy Bulletin 11jan05
The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion

The role model perhaps, or one of them:

http://www.counterpunch.org/castro07302004.html
Fidel Castro: The Pathology of George Bush
Someone Should Give Lil' Caesar a Drink
July 30, 2004

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=3 
3num=5141
Capitol Hill Blue: Bush Taking Anti-Depressants to Control Mood Swings
Jul 28, 2004, 08:09

http://www.infowars.com/print/Bush/bush_delusiona.htm
New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional
Capitol Hill Blue
Jun 17, 2004

Cause or symptom, who can tell.

Best

Keith


Kirk

Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Or, it takes a certain degree of madness to be sane in this world. You
have to be a touch crazy to be able to be happy and go on with your life
given what's going on.

-Weaver

Kirk McLoren wrote:

  Of course there is a distribution but there is demarcation. A criteria
  is set and 4% +- some deviation qualify as full blown nutters.
  We arent injection molded thermoplastic caricatures. There is a living
  dynamic. But the author builds a good case that there is a 4% you
  wouldnt leave alone with your children. Nor should you leave them in
  office. Or on a board of directors etc etc. poor perception and slow
  learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit
  psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath. On their own they
  are somewhat inhibited. The 4% are worse. Much worse. These 4% are
  destroying civilization while the sheep look for the good in man.
  The sheep better deal with the wolves. It isnt getting better on its own.
  http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF
  Read the classic, and the article. Then decide if the author is
  chicken little and the sky is falling.
 
  Kirk
 
  */[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:
 
  While I haven't read the books, I would be inclined to suspect that
  the population is not divided into a small minority who are 100%
  sociopathic plus a majority who are not at all sociopathic, but
  that there
  is something like a continuum with the pure sociopaths at one end.
 
  I suspect further that there might be several factors involved,
  perhaps
 
  * slow social learning; Eysenck's extraversion
 
  * poor perception of other peoples' feelings
 
  * indifference to other peoples' feelings
 
 
  Doug Woodard
  St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

[Biofuel] Production Trailer

2006-08-07 Thread Will Kelleher

Hello everyone,I'm starting college this August at the University of Illinois. I've been playing around with biodiesel for the past year and now I'm trying to set up a 200 gallon batch reactor. The only problem is, I have nowhere to do it. I've been collecting parts for a couple of months. I already have a great reaction tank and a bunch of 55 gallon drums to use for washing. I have recently started thinking about putting everything on a trailer and just taking it to school with me. I know somebody who has a large parking lot near campus and is willing to let me use a few spaces. Does anyone have any ideas?
Will
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Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

"Psychopaths can't be described as emotionally imbalanced."Sure. That makes sense. I think of a psychopath assomeone having a personality disorder which doesn't necessarily need to show any particular kind of emotion at all. Emotions aren't a prerequisite for amoral behavior (for example). Am I right?Anyway, I think the social commentaryin that film seems very fitting in many conversations about corporate behavior. Maybe the word I should have used in my observation is "compassion" rather than emotion.Although the story takes place in a mental institution, it doesn't exactly fit in this thread and I apologize if it's too far off topic. It's just that Nurse Ratched reminds me of some of the characters we see runningbig corporations.- RedlerKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Crrraaazy!? What's that?Remember the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? It was actually dangerous to have your emotions (relatively) in balance.- RedlerEmotional imbalance is not at all the same as being a psycho/sociopath. Psychopaths can't be described as emotionally imbalanced.Anyway, 4% of the population is way too high an estimate, IMHO. This is one distortion: learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath.I've asked this question before: Is Warren Anderson a psychopathic killer? See:http://snipurl.com/oxks[Biofuel] More about BhopalIn effect yes, but in fact he's just a corporate slave. If you allow corporations to behave as theyd like (?), they'll be sociopathic.
Their nature (?) is to subordinate everything to the bottom line, which is inevitably sociopathic. See eg.:http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg62040.htmlRe: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthlessThink I'll post this again:That said, part of my point is that corporations are a reflection of those humansmaking the big decisions at the top of the corporation.Not so. That's where we diverge. It's the other way round, but it's worse than a reflection. This isn't just my opinion or conjecture, it's solidly grounded and well established. It's an important subject here, often discussed, there are very good resources in the list archives on corporate nature and behaviour.Did you read the post about Leopold Kohr etc? If not have a read, if you will:http://snipurl.com/ox8m[Biofuel] the end of big
biodiesel?Anyway, here's some info on a, um, retired CEO named Warren Anderson and a CEO named Michael Parker:http://snipurl.com/oxks[Biofuel] More about BhopalPlease give it a read, it's important to get the background straight. The bit about Anderson is towards the end.Do you think Bhopal was (is) an exception? There are those who present a substantial case for the Bhopal disaster being business-as-usual, it's a symbol of our times, not an exception. There's more in the archives about that too. Union Carbide knowingly and deliberately put the lives of an entire Indian city at risk in order to save $37.68 per day. The Ford Pinto was $10 each, wasn't it? That's all history now? Dream on!This is what it says about UC CEO Warren Anderson, after describing his role in it:#1 corporate criminal, ex-UC CEO
Warren Anderson, an international fugitive from charges of culpable homicide and an extradition order from the government of India for the past 12 years after jumping bail there, was unearthed in 2002 by a UK newspaper and Greenpeace living a life of luxury in New York State. American authorities had always insisted they did not know his whereabouts. "If a team of journalists and Greenpeace managed to track down India's most wanted man in a matter of days, how seriously have the U.S. authorities tried to find him all these years?" asked Greenpeace campaigner Casey Harrell in the U.S. Greenpeace videotaped Anderson and handed him a warrant for his arrest. He denied who he was and then ran inside the house. The journalists discovered that Anderson's local golf club subscription costs $2700 a year, more than five times
what Union Carbide's victims in Bhopal got for a lifetime of illness and suffering.Do you think his pals at the golf club think he's a brutal and remorseless mass-killer? Or that his wife and kids think that? I'm sure they all think he was just doing his job and got a raw deal, and so does he.So who's true nature is he reflecting, Mike? Human nature? His own nature? I'm sure he wouldn't poison his own kids. But check out the resources at the end of the message above to see what he did to other people's kids. Thousands of them, and it's still happening right now. Did he do it, or did Union Carbide do it? Is it Dow CEO Michael Parker who's continuing the atrocity, or is it Dow - who brought us Agent Orange, after all, among other things?http://www.safe2use.com/ca-ipm/01-05-05.htmDow Chemical's Nasty Little Secret - Agent Orange Dump
found under New Zealand TownHaving read the whole Bhopal post, would you class this particular ongoing corporate behaviour

[Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8 steers in one night. So much for "they only kill for food". They started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.Kirk "Lady and Blackey: Cry WolfBy Scott Richard Hi, my name is Scott Richards and I have lived in Grangeville, Idaho for the last 17 years. I have enjoyed training my hunting dogs for the past 34 years. To do this it takes a great deal of love for your dogs and for the great outdoors. I have always prided myself in the manner of which I train my dogs and take care of them. When I choose a new pup he or she spends the first 6 months of their life in my house. They are loved and a bond is there forever. I do not believe there are bad dogs, just inexperienced owners. I have spent
the last 4 years trying to introduce this sport to as many young people as I could. My photo albums are full of pictures with children setting under a tree with the dogs telling them good job. That has all changed now! The reason I am writing this story is not to debate whether the Canadian gray wolf should be or should not be here. I am not going to debate anyone about how many wolfs are really in the state of Idaho. I will say our Elk, Moose and Deer populations are in serious trouble now! The real reason I am telling this story is that I have a conscience, and what happened to my dogs and me last Wednesday 5/25/2006 at 9:45 in the morning. Its been a few days now and the shock has turned from fear to disbelief to anger and now the major concern for the safety of anyone who lives in or visits are state. My life that I have loved raising and training these special working dogs is now
over. Crying wolf!! This Wednesday morning started like most days when I am training dogs. I was a few miles from my house and turned up the hill on the Service Flats Road. I let my dogs out of the box; jumped into my truck and followed them up the road for a mile letting them clean out. I had 8 dogs with me and 7 of them were very experienced 2, 3, and 4 year olds. I had one 5 month old pup. I loaded 4 dogs on the top of the box and 4 inside the box. I did not have to drive far and the dogs
sounded off letting me know a bear had crossed the road. My friend Bryon had driven up from Lewiston to train some of his young dogs. I turned out a 4 year old named Jasper, he left the road and let me know the track was fresh. I told Bryon turn his dogs loose as I did. They quickly dropped into a canyon where bears hang in the brushy bottoms in daylight hours. When all the dogs reached the bottom 5 dogs went up the other side of the canyon headed toward Fish Creek campground. The other group of dogs came right back up the hill to us. They put the bears in a tree 20 minutes later. The other group of dogs treed about the same time about 1- 1/2 miles away. Bryon and I went to the nearest dogs first. When we were under the tree we found they had a mature sow and a 2-year-old cub. We took a few pictures and we were back in the trucks ready to go to the other dogs. We drove back up to where we heard the group of 5
dogs top over and shortly there after tree the bear. When we checked where the dogs still had the bear treed. We drove as close as we could stopped and listened, they were about 4 hundred yards away treeing solid. I made the decision to move the truck 200 yards to the low side of the saddle; this would be an easy way back with the dogs. When Bryon and I crested the hill instead of hearing a roar of barking dogs treeing we heard nothing. We were looking at each other like where did they go; we just heard them there 5 minutes ago. Then one dog barked in one place another barked 50 yards away. I said to Bryon that neither dog that we heard sounded like any of our dogs. He agreed. Then I heard a dog bark that I new was mine, but at the end of his bark there was a sharp yelp. Bryon and I headed down the hill in a hurry about 75 yards apart. About 300 yards down the hill I was stopped dead in my tracks by a big dark colored wolf. My Blackey dog was getting attacked, I was
20 yards away now and closing fast, screaming and yelling as I ran. I stopped at about 12 feet from the wolf and even though I was screaming and waving my arms the wolf did not break from the attack. Every time Blackey tried to run the wolf would sink his teeth into Blackeys hindquarters. All the while I was screaming louder than I ever screamed in my life. Without any thought I picked up a 4-foot stick, stepped toward the wolf swung and hit a tree. When the branch went crack and the tree went thud the wolf instantly lunged at me. I remember thinking I was going to die. I ran from tree to tree straight up hill towards my truck. When that wolf lunged at me I believed I would have been seriously hurt or dead

Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: Using biodiesel in newer truck-cars

2006-08-07 Thread Will Kelleher

When I was bubble washing a test batch I used a rubber band to tie something heavy to the end of the air house. When I took the hose out a few days later, the rubber band had basically melted. If I have problems with my Ford's fuel system, how difficult would it be to replace myself. I'm fairly handy.
On 8/7/06, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Don't know about international, but I have a friend running biodiesel in a 1985 GM 6.5 liter diesel, haven't heard of any problems yet. He did have international before that, but it was too hard to work on. glow plugs hidden inside the valve covers or something... My old VW fuel system is rapidly dissolving under B100. Blew two of the injector return lines yesterday afternoon, the rubber is more like sticky black goo now. guess it's time to buy some viton.
On 8/7/06, Will Kelleher 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Zeke,By US manufacturers I was referring to auto manufacturers, not just diesel engines. I have an old Ford with an International engine. I'm sure the fuel system would dissolve after a few months of biodiesel.

WillOn 8/7/06, Zeke Yewdall 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A fuel dealer sound pretty unbiased. not. I had a diesel mechanic tell me that using biodiesel would ruin my injectors due to lack of lubricity... Uhhh?What US manufactures are you asking about specificially? I think Cummins is the only one left? Or is International still a US company? Jeep uses italian engines, and GM uses Isuzu engines in their diesels.
On 8/6/06, Will Kelleher 


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello,I met a man the other night who said he knows a fuel dealer in Champagne, IL who says that biodiesel ruins the fuel system in new vehicles and consequently will not recommend its use. I was under the impression that most new vehicles use biodiesel-resistant Viton components. Is it just manufacturer dependent? Does anyone know if the US auto manufacturers use Viton? Is Viton even completely resistant to biodiesel? Lots of questions, but thanks.
Will On 8/2/06, Andres Secco 



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:







Dear Steve,
I have been testing biodiesel in newer Hyundai and 
Kia diesel vehicles and have some findings.
First of all the base RPM increases up to 1500 RPM. 
After a week using B50 (50% biodiesel) the normal range comes back. I guess is 
because the computermodifies the air or fuel intake, but it 
happens.
Over 3500 RPM the torque or power of the engine 
seems to decrease, since the engine reacts slowly than when use petroleoum 
diesel, but after one week this changes to the old behaviour.
I have no noticed any change in the milleage per 
gallon. I have noted a subtancial reduction in opacity and the whole emission 
gas pack, which is very strict in my country.
The only problem is the natural rubber in the fuel 
pump and piping of the engine which is deteriorated with biodiesel, but takes a 
time to happen and with a 20% blend takes months, but happens. I have heard that 
newer vehicles comes equipped with Viton rubber and resistant to Biodiesel but I 
am not sure which ones were changed because the technical depts. of the dealers 
do not give much info. Actually none of them have answered my 
e-mails.

Regards


  - Original Message - 
  




From: 
  Steve 
  Barton 
  To: 




biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:15 
  AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Using biodiesel in 
  newer truck-cars
  
  Hello to all
  I'm new to all of this and have read and studied 
  the makeing of biodiesel and have planed out a plane to produce it as well 
  But befor diving into to deep of water I have not found much info about runing 
  home made biodiesel in newer engines. I have a 2005 chevy diesel truck with 
  the 6.6lly engine in it. Any links on the net or info about problems that I 
  might have running biodiesel that I have made myself in a newer computer 
  controled diesels would be nice. Thanks for the help.
  
  Frist post to the list, Steve
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap

2006-08-07 Thread Jason Katie

collect the condenser water in a bucket or start a bucket from the water 
mains , and put a small pump (wiper pump or other handy pumping device) and 
spill the collected water back over the exchanger coil, doesnt matter how 
much boils off or how hot it gets in the bucket, it will just evaporate 
faster releasing heat into the outside air and not your house. you might 
have to re-load the bucket once in a while, but  that would be better than 
having a continuous flow of mains water.

Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap


 ...I just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window
 style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on
 the condenser.

 Brilliant! I like it.

 -Redler


 Juan Boveda wrote:
 Hello Mike Redler.

 I did have the same idea by observing big air conditioner units that uses 
 a
 spray of water on a cooling tower for evaporation of the hot water and
 recycle the fresh water for cooling the hot side heat exchanger or
 condenser.

 In my home air conditioner, I just put a plug on the exit hole of the 
 tray
 of my window style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water 
 on
 the condenser. Humidity here during summer time seldom drops from 50% and
 it usually is around 70% if it is not raining.

 I send the condensed water from the evaporator to be used in hot 
 condenser,
 the spray was produced by the ac fan usually this happened after ? hour 
 of
 working time of the ac unit.

 If you need more water from start and if your house has running water 
 with
 enough pressure it is just as simple as put a perforated hose on top of 
 the
 condenser and adjust the water flow as to almost all the water is
 evaporated. Just let the water coming out the ac unit to be not more than 
 a
 few drops per minute.

 It is better not to waste a lot of running water. It is much efficient to
 use Water Evaporation. If my memory does not fool me (here I do not have
 the water humidity psychometric chart) the evaporation of water needs 
 about
 520 Kilocalories/Kg of heat to evaporated 1 Kg of water, this means as
 cooling effect. Consider that the heat capacity of only 1 Kilocalorie for
 each Kg of water in the change of 1 degree Celsius.

 Best Regards.

 Juan
 Paraguay



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Re: [Biofuel] Astroturf

2006-08-07 Thread Logan vilas









I dont think Astroturf will work
for biofuell production



Logan Vilas











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006
12:43 PM
To: biofuel
Subject: [Biofuel] Astroturf





Not new though see Kuwait comment.The gvt isnt concerned about what you think. They have created what you think.Kirk++| PR Firm Behind Al Gore YouTube Spoof? || from the new-intarweb-trolls dept. || posted by ScuttleMonkey on Sunday August 06, @18:11 (Republicans)|| http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/06/209244 |++mytrip writes to tell us ABC News is reporting that a supposed amateurvideo posted to YouTube.com may have actually been designed and posted bya Republican [0]public relations firm called DCI. From the article:Public relations firms have long used computer technology to createbogus grassroots campaigns, which are called 'Astroturf.' Now these firmsare being hired to push illusions on the Internet to create the falseimpression of real people blogging, e-mailing and making films.Discuss this story at: http://politics.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=06/08/06/209244Links: 0. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2273111page=1









In fact, the most emotionally moving testimony on
October 10 came from a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl, known only by her first name
of Nayirah. According to the Caucus, Nayirah's full name was being kept
confidential to prevent Iraqi reprisals against her family in occupied Kuwait.
Sobbing, she described what she had seen with her own eyes in a hospital in Kuwait City.
Her written testimony was passed out in a media kit prepared by Citizens for a
Free Kuwait.
I volunteered at the al-Addan hospital, Nayirah said. While I
was there, I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns, and go
into the room where . . . babies were in incubators. They took the babies out
of the incubators, took the incubators, and left the babies on the cold floor
to die.83

Three months passed between Nayirah's
testimony and the start of the war. During those months, the story of babies
torn from their incubators was repeated over and over again. President Bush
told the story. It was recited as fact in Congressional testimony, on TV and
radio talk shows, and at the UN Security Council. Of all the accusations
made against the dictator, MacArthur observed, none had more impact
on American public opinion than the one about Iraqi soldiers removing 312
babies from their incubators and leaving them to die on the cold hospital
floors of Kuwait City.84

At the Human Rights Caucus, however,
Hill  Knowlton and Congressman Lantos had failed to reveal that Nayirah
was a member of the Kuwaiti Royal Family. Her father, in fact, was Saud Nasir
al-Sabah, Kuwait's
Ambassador to the US,
who sat listening in the hearing room during her testimony. The Caucus also
failed to reveal that HK vice-president Lauri Fitz-Pegado had coached
Nayirah in what even the Kuwaitis' own investigators later confirmed was false
testimony.



 







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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

2006-08-07 Thread DHAJOGLO

Kirk,
   I can't tell from your comment on this article whether you feel issues with 
wolves are dealt with improperly or if you feel the meat industry is going to 
take a real beating from them.  We have wolves here in Minnesota and the 
farmers truly  hate them.  However, seeing as how the northern states make up a 
smaller percentage of beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be 
negligible.  Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef populations 
would have to take a significant hit (in the order of hundreds of thousands) to 
really be impacted.  Also, reading the post by Richard, he seems more concerned 
about the game populations and our safety.

Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our cattle industry: 
http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm

Regards,
-dave

Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kirk McLoren
To: biofuel Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start
hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
steers in one night. So much for they only kill for food. They
started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business
soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.
Kirk




Lady and Blackey: Cry Wolf

By Scott Richard

  Hi, my name is Scott Richards and


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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: HSI e-Alert - On January 1st, the Area 181 oil boom begins...

To put the AREA 181 in perspective, the estimated 1.3 billion barrels of oil 
represent about two 
months supply in the US, based on current consumption of about 20 million 
barrels of oil per day. 
Reality doesn't square with the statement below that



Kirk McLoren wrote:

snip

 There’s enough oil there, according to the U.S. Commerce Department,
 to fuel every bus, van, car and SUV in the entire United States for
 at least the next 17 years. And enough gas, according to/ The/
 /Washington Post/, “to heat every home in the United States for the
 next 80 years.”
 In Area 181 alone, the /Washington Post/ estimates there are 1.3
 billion barrels of oil and 5.8 trillion cubic feet of natural gas.
 That’s why, according to the U.S. Minerals and Management Service
 (MMS), Area 181 “received more than twice as many expressions of
 interest from the [energy] industry of any other area...”
 Anadarko Oil chairman Robert Allison said of Area 181: “We’ve been
 peering over the fence for the past 13 years -- and at last we’re
 being allowed inside.”
 The geological analysis has been done. The companies involved know
 exactly where the oil is...
 And when these bans expire, Area 181 will become the most profitable
 oil property in the U.S. for decades to come.
 Anadarko is one of three major U.S. oil companies that won
 government bids for drilling leases in Area 181.
 
 
 Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. 
 http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=41244/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
 
 
 
 
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=
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philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info as we sold our home back there. When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in that transition now. So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen much re control. I think it reasonable they will become the problem they once were. They are still wolves and do what wolves do. Predators are predators. KirkDHAJOGLO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk,I can't
tell from your comment on this article whether you feel issues with wolves are dealt with improperly or if you feel the meat industry is going to take a real beating from them. We have wolves here in Minnesota and the farmers truly hate them. However, seeing as how the northern states make up a smaller percentage of beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be negligible. Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef populations would have to take a significant hit (in the order of hundreds of thousands) to really be impacted. Also, reading the post by Richard, he seems more concerned about the game populations and our safety.Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our cattle industry: http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htmRegards,-daveDate: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuel Subject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near
GrangevilleIf you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them starthunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8steers in one night. So much for "they only kill for food". Theystarted on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of businesssoon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.Kirk"Lady and Blackey: Cry WolfBy Scott Richard Hi, my name is Scott Richards and___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
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Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous - technology.

Howdy Peter, I am sorry if I came off as flippant. I just was pointing out the 
obvious- technology 
is a double-edged sword. It is not technology itself that gets us in trouble, 
but rather the 
application.

Guag Meister wrote:
 Hi Bob ;
 
 We were better 
 off running down the gazelles and ripping their
 throats out with our 
 teeth.  ;-
 
 Ha, don't laugh.  Where I have my farm in Cambodia,
 the local poeple have no running water, no
 electricity, almost no roads.  They manage to live
 without most of the modern conveniences and most
 appear to be happy people.
 
 Yet many are deformed physically (not to mention 
 dead) due to a long war and landmines.  If I asked
 them what has science and technology done for them,
 almost all the answers would be negative. A few good
 things are the creation of sensitive mine detectors
 and decent prosthetic limbs.
 
 Technology and medicine is great but these things 
 matter little when the Americans are carpet bombing
 your country out of existence, and the Russians are
 planting landmines at a furious pace with no record
 keeping.  In Thailand there is a saying : When
 elephants fight, ants die.
 
 All things considered I believe the net effect of
 technology is negative.  Taken to it's logical
 conclusion, the best course for mankind would be to
 live like we lived long ago.  There once was a
 prominent leader who advocated living this way.  His
 name was Jesus.
 
 BR
 Peter G.
 Thailand
 
 
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=
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philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous - technology.

2006-08-07 Thread Guag Meister

Hi Bob ;

 We were better 
 off running down the gazelles and ripping their
 throats out with our 
 teeth.  ;-

Ha, don't laugh.  Where I have my farm in Cambodia,
the local poeple have no running water, no
electricity, almost no roads.  They manage to live
without most of the modern conveniences and most
appear to be happy people.

Yet many are deformed physically (not to mention 
dead) due to a long war and landmines.  If I asked
them what has science and technology done for them,
almost all the answers would be negative. A few good
things are the creation of sensitive mine detectors
and decent prosthetic limbs.

Technology and medicine is great but these things 
matter little when the Americans are carpet bombing
your country out of existence, and the Russians are
planting landmines at a furious pace with no record
keeping.  In Thailand there is a saying : When
elephants fight, ants die.

All things considered I believe the net effect of
technology is negative.  Taken to it's logical
conclusion, the best course for mankind would be to
live like we lived long ago.  There once was a
prominent leader who advocated living this way.  His
name was Jesus.

BR
Peter G.
Thailand


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[Biofuel] the tax man cometh

I recently received a letter from the Arkansas Department of finance.  I am to 
herewith submit 22.5 
cents per gallon of biodiesel produced.  I guess that this happened because of 
an article that 
appeared in a statewide newspaper, concerning my manufacture of biodiesel as a 
student project. 
(Some pin-headed commercial producer felt that I should be paying my fair share 
of taxes), which I 
don't mind.

Now if I can just figure out how to get the 50 cent-a-gallon produce tax credit.

-- 
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and deer populations long term, as they evolved together. They weren't a problem for thousands and thousands of years. Putting domestic animals that were relatively easy to kill, and that we owned in place of the native game was when the problem began. It's sort of like leaving all your food out on the ground in bear country, and then claiming the bears are the problem. We've compounded it by reducing habitat for the wild game, so the wolves learn to eat other prey that they normally wouldn't. It a classic case of overpopulation of an atypical food species, which is usually kept in check by an increase in predators that can eat them, but normally don't. It's just rather uncomfortable to find that we and our livestock are the food species in this equation, instead of some hapless field mice or such.
That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that killing wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would probably be a good idea. Long term, it's not going to solve anything since we've caused the situation. But long term, it wouldnt be good for wolves to learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native game back.
On 8/7/06, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info as we sold our home back there.
When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in that transition now. So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen much re control. I think it reasonable they will become the problem they once were. They are still wolves and do what wolves do.
Predators are predators. KirkDHAJOGLO [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: Kirk,I can't
tell from your comment on this article whether you feel issues with wolves are dealt with improperly or if you feel the meat industry is going to take a real beating from them. We have wolves here in Minnesota and the farmers truly hate them. However, seeing as how the northern states make up a smaller percentage of beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be negligible. Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef populations would have to take a significant hit (in the order of hundreds of thousands) to really be impacted. Also, reading the post by Richard, he seems more concerned about the game populations and our safety.
Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our cattle industry: http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm
Regards,-daveDate: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuel Subject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near
GrangevilleIf you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them starthunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8steers in one night. So much for they only kill for food. They
started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of businesssoon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.Kirk
Lady and Blackey: Cry WolfBy Scott Richard Hi, my name is Scott Richards and___Biofuel mailing list
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Re: [Biofuel] Astroturf

well, I bet you could melt it down into fuel, but it's probably petroleum based to begin with, so it wouldn;t really be a biofuelOn 8/7/06, Logan vilas
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


















I don't think Astroturf will work
for biofuell production



Logan
 Vilas











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006
12:43 PM
To: biofuel
Subject: [Biofuel] Astroturf





Not new though see Kuwait comment.
The gvt isnt concerned about what you think. They have created what you think.
Kirk
++
| PR Firm Behind Al Gore YouTube Spoof? |
| from the new-intarweb-trolls dept. |
| posted by ScuttleMonkey on Sunday August 06, @18:11 (Republicans)|
| 
http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/06/209244 |
++
mytrip writes to tell us ABC News is reporting that a supposed amateur
video posted
 to YouTube.com may have actually been designed and posted 
by
a Republican [0]public relations firm called DCI. From the article:
Public relations firms have long used computer technology to create
bogus grassroots campaigns, which are called 'Astroturf.' Now these 
firms
are being hired to push illusions on the Internet to create the false
impression of real people blogging, e-mailing and making films.
Discuss this story at:
 
http://politics.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=06/08/06/209244
Links:
 0. 
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2273111page=1










In fact, the most emotionally moving testimony on
October 10 came from a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl, known only by her first name
of Nayirah. According to the Caucus, Nayirah's full name was being kept
confidential to prevent Iraqi reprisals against her family in occupied Kuwait.
Sobbing, she described what she had seen with her own eyes in a hospital in Kuwait City.
Her written testimony was passed out in a media kit prepared by Citizens for a
Free Kuwait.
I volunteered at the al-Addan hospital, Nayirah said. While I
was there, I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns, and go
into the room where . . . babies were in incubators. They took the babies out
of the incubators, took the incubators, and left the babies on the cold floor
to die.83

Three months passed between Nayirah's
testimony and the start of the war. During those months, the story of babies
torn from their incubators was repeated over and over again. President Bush
told the story. It was recited as fact in Congressional testimony, on TV and
radio talk shows, and at the UN Security Council. Of all the accusations
made against the dictator, MacArthur observed, none had more impact
on American public opinion than the one about Iraqi soldiers removing 312
babies from their incubators and leaving them to die on the cold hospital
floors of Kuwait City.84

At the Human Rights Caucus, however,
Hill  Knowlton and Congressman Lantos had failed to reveal that Nayirah
was a member of the Kuwaiti Royal Family. Her father, in fact, was Saud Nasir
al-Sabah, Kuwait's
Ambassador to the US,
who sat listening in the hearing room during her testimony. The Caucus also
failed to reveal that HK vice-president Lauri Fitz-Pegado had coached
Nayirah in what even the Kuwaitis' own investigators later confirmed was false
testimony.



 







Why keep checking for Mail? The 
all-new
Yahoo! Mail Beta shows you when there are new messages.







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Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous - technology.

2006-08-07 Thread Guag Meister

Hi Bob ;

No problem at all.  

 It is not technology itself
 that gets us in trouble, but rather the 
 application.

Yes this is true.  You know when I am editing a Word
document I am amazed at how long it takes to create
the document from scratch, but I can delete it almost
instantly.  The point is that destroying is so much
easier than creating.  A single match can destroy a
house, but nothing similar to a match could create a
house.

Even if 99 people out of one hundred are good, the one
bad can cause so much destuction that the balance can
be shifted enough so that the net effect is negative
for all.  If we could weed out the 1 bad guy out of
100, then I would be all for technology.

But even so there is always the cumulative effect of
technology which is not so easy to identify.  If we
lived simply, yes we would have leprosy (but probably
a lot less cancer), we wouldn't have open heart
surgery (but probably less heart disease), we would
have to walk to work (but we wouldn't have global
warming or Peak Oil or obesity problems), we wouldn't
have electricity (but no low level uranium dumps or
acid rain or the atom bomb or Depleted Uranium
munitions), general sickness, even plagues (but not
anti-biotic resistant organsms, the jury is still out
on plagues, we still have HIV, H5N1, TB), etc.

IMHO, it is not at all clear that the net effect of
technology is a positive one.  My recommendation is
approach with caution.

Keep up the good work.  I have yet to make my first
test batch (sorry Keith), but I'm working on it.

BR
Peter G.
Thailand


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Re: [Biofuel] the tax man cometh

2006-08-07 Thread Ken Provost


On Aug 7, 2006, at 2:13 PM, bob allen wrote:

 I recently received a letter from the Arkansas Department of  
 finance.  I am to herewith submit 22.5
 cents per gallon of biodiesel produced.  I guess that this happened  
 because of an article that
 appeared in a statewide newspaper, concerning my manufacture of  
 biodiesel as a student project.


Hard call -- do you keep your head down in the trench, or tell the  
world? Or tell a few

-K

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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

2006-08-07 Thread JJJN

We had a single (or pair of them, the feds could not be sure) Wolf Kill 
well over 100 Sheep. Over 50 in one night. When the Federal Fish and 
Wildlife finally authorized Federal trappers to Kill one Wolf They 
hunted it for 6 months in the badlands using an airplane and 4X4 with no 
success. Another confirmed sheep kill by wolf was reported in Dawson 
county 2 Months ago. Local trappers are sure from what they see that it 
is a mating pair not a Lobo. But then what do locals know about 
anything. Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with 
how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. Whats worse 
is the pathetic slow pace the Feds take and the arrogance they display 
to the State Fish Wildlife and Parks.

Just venting,
Jim

Kirk McLoren wrote:

 If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start
 hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
 steers in one night. So much for they only kill for food. They
 started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business
 soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
 I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.
 Kirk


  * Lady and Blackey: Cry Wolf
 *
 */ By Scott Richard
 /*
 Hi, my name is Scott Richards and I have lived in Grangeville ,
 Idaho for the last 17 years. I have enjoyed training my hunting
 dogs for the past 34 years. To do this it takes a great deal of
 love for your dogs and for the great outdoors. I have always
 prided myself in the manner of which I train my dogs and take care
 of them. When I choose a new pup he or she spends the first 6
 months of their life in my house. They are loved and a bond is
 there forever. I do not believe there are bad dog’s, just
 inexperienced owners. I have spent the last 4 years trying to
 introduce this sport to as many young people as I could. My photo
 albums are full of pictures with children setting under a tree
 with the dogs telling them good job. That has all changed now! The
 reason I am writing this story is not to debate whether the
 Canadian gray wolf should be or should not be here. I am not going
 to debate anyone about how many wolfs are really in the state of
 Idaho . I will say our Elk, Moose and Deer populations are in
 serious trouble now! The real reason I am telling this story is
 that I have a conscience, and what happened to my dogs and me last
 Wednesday 5/25/2006 at 9:45 in the morning. It’s been a few days
 now and the shock has turned from fear to disbelief to anger and
 now the major concern for the safety of anyone who lives in or
 visits are state. My life that I have loved raising and training
 these special working dogs is now over.

 Crying wolf!!

 This Wednesday morning started like most days when I am training
 dogs. I was a few miles from my house and turned up the hill on
 the Service Flats Road . I let my dogs out of the box; jumped into
 my truck and followed them up the road for a mile letting them
 clean out. I had 8 dogs with me and 7 of them were very
 experienced 2, 3, and 4 year olds. I had one 5 month old pup. I
 loaded 4 dogs on the top of the box and 4 inside the box. I did
 not have to drive far and the dogs sounded off letting me know a
 bear had crossed the road. My friend Bryon had driven up from
 Lewiston to train some of his young dogs. I turned out a 4 year
 old named Jasper, he left the road and let me know the track was
 fresh. I told Bryon turn his dogs loose as I did. They quickly
 dropped into a canyon where bears hang in the brushy bottoms in
 daylight hours. When all the dogs reached the bottom 5 dogs went
 up the other side of the canyon headed toward Fish Creek
 campground. The other group of dogs came right back up the hill to
 us. They put the bears in a tree 20 minutes later. The other group
 of dogs treed about the same time about 1- 1/2 miles away. Bryon
 and I went to the nearest dogs first. When we were under the tree
 we found they had a mature sow and a 2-year-old cub. We took a few
 pictures and we were back in the trucks ready to go to the other
 dogs. We drove back up to where we heard the group of 5 dogs top
 over and shortly there after tree the bear. When we checked where
 the dogs still had the bear treed. We drove as close as we could 
 stopped and listened, they were about 4 hundred yards away treeing
 solid. I made the decision to move the truck 200 yards to the low
 side of the saddle; this would be an easy way back with the dogs.
 When Bryon and I crested the hill instead of hearing a roar of
 barking dogs treeing we heard nothing. We were looking at each
 other like where did they go; we just heard them there 5 minutes
 ago. Then one dog barked in one place another barked 50 yards
 away.

Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

Just out of curiosity, was this on public or private land?

JJJN wrote:

We had a single (or pair of them, the feds could not be sure) Wolf Kill 
well over 100 Sheep. Over 50 in one night. When the Federal Fish and 
Wildlife finally authorized Federal trappers to Kill one Wolf They 
hunted it for 6 months in the badlands using an airplane and 4X4 with no 
success. Another confirmed sheep kill by wolf was reported in Dawson 
county 2 Months ago. Local trappers are sure from what they see that it 
is a mating pair not a Lobo. But then what do locals know about 
anything. Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with 
how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. Whats worse 
is the pathetic slow pace the Feds take and the arrogance they display 
to the State Fish Wildlife and Parks.

Just venting,
Jim

Kirk McLoren wrote:

  

If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start
hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
steers in one night. So much for they only kill for food. They
started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business
soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.
Kirk


 * Lady and Blackey: Cry Wolf
*
*/ By Scott Richard
/*
Hi, my name is Scott Richards and I have lived in Grangeville ,
Idaho for the last 17 years. I have enjoyed training my hunting
dogs for the past 34 years. To do this it takes a great deal of
love for your dogs and for the great outdoors. I have always
prided myself in the manner of which I train my dogs and take care
of them. When I choose a new pup he or she spends the first 6
months of their life in my house. They are loved and a bond is
there forever. I do not believe there are bad dog’s, just
inexperienced owners. I have spent the last 4 years trying to
introduce this sport to as many young people as I could. My photo
albums are full of pictures with children setting under a tree
with the dogs telling them good job. That has all changed now! The
reason I am writing this story is not to debate whether the
Canadian gray wolf should be or should not be here. I am not going
to debate anyone about how many wolfs are really in the state of
Idaho . I will say our Elk, Moose and Deer populations are in
serious trouble now! The real reason I am telling this story is
that I have a conscience, and what happened to my dogs and me last
Wednesday 5/25/2006 at 9:45 in the morning. It’s been a few days
now and the shock has turned from fear to disbelief to anger and
now the major concern for the safety of anyone who lives in or
visits are state. My life that I have loved raising and training
these special working dogs is now over.

Crying wolf!!

This Wednesday morning started like most days when I am training
dogs. I was a few miles from my house and turned up the hill on
the Service Flats Road . I let my dogs out of the box; jumped into
my truck and followed them up the road for a mile letting them
clean out. I had 8 dogs with me and 7 of them were very
experienced 2, 3, and 4 year olds. I had one 5 month old pup. I
loaded 4 dogs on the top of the box and 4 inside the box. I did
not have to drive far and the dogs sounded off letting me know a
bear had crossed the road. My friend Bryon had driven up from
Lewiston to train some of his young dogs. I turned out a 4 year
old named Jasper, he left the road and let me know the track was
fresh. I told Bryon turn his dogs loose as I did. They quickly
dropped into a canyon where bears hang in the brushy bottoms in
daylight hours. When all the dogs reached the bottom 5 dogs went
up the other side of the canyon headed toward Fish Creek
campground. The other group of dogs came right back up the hill to
us. They put the bears in a tree 20 minutes later. The other group
of dogs treed about the same time about 1- 1/2 miles away. Bryon
and I went to the nearest dogs first. When we were under the tree
we found they had a mature sow and a 2-year-old cub. We took a few
pictures and we were back in the trucks ready to go to the other
dogs. We drove back up to where we heard the group of 5 dogs top
over and shortly there after tree the bear. When we checked where
the dogs still had the bear treed. We drove as close as we could 
stopped and listened, they were about 4 hundred yards away treeing
solid. I made the decision to move the truck 200 yards to the low
side of the saddle; this would be an easy way back with the dogs.
When Bryon and I crested the hill instead of hearing a roar of
barking dogs treeing we heard nothing. We were looking at each
other like where did they go; we just heard them there 5 minutes
ago. Then one dog barked in one place another barked 50 yards

Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous

2006-08-07 Thread Juan Carlos Aguilar

We must stop de use of GM products now not tomorrow,
and promove the ecological agriculture, here in south
america (Argentina) the people have a lot of problems
with GM soja, the fields of the owner´s don´t produce
any more when GM soja is used. its a great problem.
peace 
Juan Carlos
from lima Peru.

--- Doug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Monday 07 August 2006 8:39, Guag Meister wrote:
 I tend to agree with you. Imagine a simple molecule
 such as caused 
 Thalidomide. Even worse imagine a molecule that
 affected a gene contained in 
 a single racial type. (Maybe we should start looking
 for a distinct gene in 
 crooked pollies! ..known as the greed gene.)
 
 regards Doug
 
  While I agree wholeheartedly with the basis of the
  post, these types of posts seem to suggest that GM
  would be OK if all the problems with the
 environment
  and harmful effects could be solved.
 
  Sorry for repeating myself ad nausium, but GM is
 still
  incredibly dangerous even if there were NO harmful
  effects at all and they actually did produce
 bumper
  crops.  Why?
 
  Answer : By purchasing and using GM products, we
 are
  supporting and allowing the GM industry to
 proliferate
  in knowledge, equipment, and people who know how
 to
  use it.  And there has never been a single
 instance
  where a new technology has not been siezed by the
  military (and ordinary people as well) and
 examined
  for every possible method to harm and kill people.
  In
  addition to the military, sadly some people have
 bad
  intentions.  For a small example, consider how
 many
  computer viruses there are. Who writes a computer
  virus and for what purpose?  Some are for
 marketing
  and some are solely destructive.  These poeple
 have
  taken a positive force (computers) and turned it
 into
  a highly negative and destructive force.
 
  These posts worry about accidental side effects. 
 I am
  talking about deliberately designing an organism
 whose
  effect will be to kill people (either through
 disease
  or starvation or some other mechanism).
 
  So don't worry so much about the accidental side
  effects (which undoubtedly can be significant). 
 Worry
  much more about the deliberate side effects from
  militaty usage where the goal is to kill people. 
 If
  the accidental side effects of GM are disastrous,
 how
  much more so will the results of deliberate
 harmful
  and destructive actions by individuals or the
  military?
 
  BR
  Peter G.
  Thailand
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap

2006-08-07 Thread Mike Redler

Agreed.

Good idea.

- Redler

Jason Katie wrote:
 collect the condenser water in a bucket or start a bucket from the water 
 mains , and put a small pump (wiper pump or other handy pumping device) and 
 spill the collected water back over the exchanger coil, doesnt matter how 
 much boils off or how hot it gets in the bucket, it will just evaporate 
 faster releasing heat into the outside air and not your house. you might 
 have to re-load the bucket once in a while, but  that would be better than 
 having a continuous flow of mains water.

 Jason
 ICQ#:  154998177
 MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 - Original Message - 
 From: Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 6:15 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap


   
 ...I just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window
 style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on
 the condenser.

 Brilliant! I like it.

 -Redler


 Juan Boveda wrote:
 
 Hello Mike Redler.

 I did have the same idea by observing big air conditioner units that uses 
 a
 spray of water on a cooling tower for evaporation of the hot water and
 recycle the fresh water for cooling the hot side heat exchanger or
 condenser.

 In my home air conditioner, I just put a plug on the exit hole of the 
 tray
 of my window style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water 
 on
 the condenser. Humidity here during summer time seldom drops from 50% and
 it usually is around 70% if it is not raining.

 I send the condensed water from the evaporator to be used in hot 
 condenser,
 the spray was produced by the ac fan usually this happened after ? hour 
 of
 working time of the ac unit.

 If you need more water from start and if your house has running water 
 with
 enough pressure it is just as simple as put a perforated hose on top of 
 the
 condenser and adjust the water flow as to almost all the water is
 evaporated. Just let the water coming out the ac unit to be not more than 
 a
 few drops per minute.

 It is better not to waste a lot of running water. It is much efficient to
 use Water Evaporation. If my memory does not fool me (here I do not have
 the water humidity psychometric chart) the evaporation of water needs 
 about
 520 Kilocalories/Kg of heat to evaporated 1 Kg of water, this means as
 cooling effect. Consider that the heat capacity of only 1 Kilocalorie for
 each Kg of water in the change of 1 degree Celsius.

 Best Regards.

 Juan
 Paraguay


   

   


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Re: [Biofuel] Production Trailer

2006-08-07 Thread Thor Burfine


		
Watch your DOT regs.Any fuel container that has a total weight of 600 pounds or more including the storage vessel is required to have plackards and you have to have a hazmat on your license to move it unless it is hooked into your primary fuel system.In other words, Diesel at 7.0 to 7.3 lb/US gallon in a 100 gallon fuel transfer tank (700 to 730 pounds) in the bed of a pickup is required to have the plackards and a hazmat endorsement, same goes for your idea of a trailer.Other than that the City might have a problem with the storage of hazardous materials.Make a few phone calls to the city.Also your friends Insurance on the property could be dropped or at least his rates will go through the roof.Good luck
		

From: "Will Kelleher" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 11:02 AMTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] Production Trailer
		
		Hello everyone,I'm starting college this August at the University of Illinois.  I've been playing around with biodiesel for the past year and now I'm trying to set up a 200 gallon batch reactor.  The only problem is, I have nowhere to do it.  I've been collecting parts for a couple of months.  I already have a great reaction tank and a bunch of 55 gallon drums to use for washing.  I have recently started thinking about putting everything on a trailer and just taking it to school with me.  I know somebody who has a large parking lot near campus and is willing to let me use a few spaces.  Does anyone have any ideas? Will
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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville


Yeah, whatever.  Can you make biodiesel out of them?

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

 Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and deer 
 populations long term, as they evolved together.  They weren't a 
 problem for thousands and thousands of years.  Putting domestic 
 animals that were relatively easy to kill, and that we owned in 
 place of the native game was when the problem began.  It's sort of 
 like leaving all your food out on the ground in bear country, and then 
 claiming the bears are the problem.  We've compounded it by reducing 
 habitat for the wild game, so the wolves learn to eat other prey that 
 they normally wouldn't.  It a classic case of overpopulation of an 
 atypical food species, which is usually kept in check by an increase 
 in predators that can eat them, but normally don't.  It's just rather 
 uncomfortable to find that we and our livestock are the food species 
 in this equation, instead of some hapless field mice or such.

 That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that killing 
 wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would probably be a 
 good idea.  Long term, it's not going to solve anything since we've 
 caused the situation.  But long term, it wouldnt be good for wolves to 
 learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native game back.

 On 8/7/06, *Kirk McLoren* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember
 the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember
 those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota
 Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without
 those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That
 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info
 as we sold our home back there.
 When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in
 that transition now.
 So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen
 much re control.
 I think it reasonable they will become the problem they once were.
 They are still wolves and do what wolves do.
 Predators are predators.
 Kirk


 */DHAJOGLO [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:
 Kirk,
 I can't tell from your comment on this article whether you feel
 issues with wolves are dealt with improperly or if you feel the
 meat industry is going to take a real beating from them. We have
 wolves here in Minnesota and the farmers truly hate them. However,
 seeing as how the northern states make up a smaller percentage of
 beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be negligible.
 Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef populations
 would have to take a significant hit (in the order of hundreds of
 thousands) to really be impacted. Also, reading the post by
 Richard, he seems more concerned about the game populations and
 our safety.

 Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our
 cattle industry: http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm
 http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm

 Regards,
 -dave

Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kirk McLoren
To: biofuel
Subject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start
hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
steers in one night. So much for they only kill for food. They
started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business
soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.
Kirk




Lady and Blackey: Cry Wolf

By Scott Richard

 Hi, my name is Scott Richards and


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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: HSI e-Alert - On January 1st, the Area 181 oil boom begins...

2006-08-07 Thread Mike Redler


(IMO) it looks like a numbers game. They mention the number of barrels 
and how long it would power every bus, van, car and SUV but neglected 
to mention everything that consumes that 20 million barrels.

Is this possible or are they just lying?

- Redler


bob allen wrote:
 To put the AREA 181 in perspective, the estimated 1.3 billion barrels of oil 
 represent about two 
 months supply in the US, based on current consumption of about 20 million 
 barrels of oil per day. 
 Reality doesn't square with the statement below that



 Kirk McLoren wrote:

 snip

   
 There’s enough oil there, according to the U.S. Commerce Department,
 to fuel every bus, van, car and SUV in the entire United States for
 at least the next 17 years. And enough gas, according to/ The/
 /Washington Post/, “to heat every home in the United States for the
 next 80 years.”
 In Area 181 alone, the /Washington Post/ estimates there are 1.3
 billion barrels of oil and 5.8 trillion cubic feet of natural gas.
 That’s why, according to the U.S. Minerals and Management Service
 (MMS), Area 181 “received more than twice as many expressions of
 interest from the [energy] industry of any other area...”
 Anadarko Oil chairman Robert Allison said of Area 181: “We’ve been
 peering over the fence for the past 13 years -- and at last we’re
 being allowed inside.”
 The geological analysis has been done. The companies involved know
 exactly where the oil is...
 And when these bans expire, Area 181 will become the most profitable
 oil property in the U.S. for decades to come.
 Anadarko is one of three major U.S. oil companies that won
 government bids for drilling leases in Area 181.

 


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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

2006-08-07 Thread JJJN

There were several kill sites in this the two Counties invloved. at the 
time I understand the killing was on Private land. but that is not to 
say that there is not some public land involved.
Jim

Mike Weaver wrote:

Just out of curiosity, was this on public or private land?

JJJN wrote:

  

We had a single (or pair of them, the feds could not be sure) Wolf Kill 
well over 100 Sheep. Over 50 in one night. When the Federal Fish and 
Wildlife finally authorized Federal trappers to Kill one Wolf They 
hunted it for 6 months in the badlands using an airplane and 4X4 with no 
success. Another confirmed sheep kill by wolf was reported in Dawson 
county 2 Months ago. Local trappers are sure from what they see that it 
is a mating pair not a Lobo. But then what do locals know about 
anything. Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with 
how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. Whats worse 
is the pathetic slow pace the Feds take and the arrogance they display 
to the State Fish Wildlife and Parks.

Just venting,
Jim

Kirk McLoren wrote:

 



If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start
hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
steers in one night. So much for they only kill for food. They
started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business
soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.
Kirk


* Lady and Blackey: Cry Wolf
   *
   */ By Scott Richard
   /*
   Hi, my name is Scott Richards and I have lived in Grangeville ,
   Idaho for the last 17 years. I have enjoyed training my hunting
   dogs for the past 34 years. To do this it takes a great deal of
   love for your dogs and for the great outdoors. I have always
   prided myself in the manner of which I train my dogs and take care
   of them. When I choose a new pup he or she spends the first 6
   months of their life in my house. They are loved and a bond is
   there forever. I do not believe there are bad dog’s, just
   inexperienced owners. I have spent the last 4 years trying to
   introduce this sport to as many young people as I could. My photo
   albums are full of pictures with children setting under a tree
   with the dogs telling them good job. That has all changed now! The
   reason I am writing this story is not to debate whether the
   Canadian gray wolf should be or should not be here. I am not going
   to debate anyone about how many wolfs are really in the state of
   Idaho . I will say our Elk, Moose and Deer populations are in
   serious trouble now! The real reason I am telling this story is
   that I have a conscience, and what happened to my dogs and me last
   Wednesday 5/25/2006 at 9:45 in the morning. It’s been a few days
   now and the shock has turned from fear to disbelief to anger and
   now the major concern for the safety of anyone who lives in or
   visits are state. My life that I have loved raising and training
   these special working dogs is now over.

   Crying wolf!!

   This Wednesday morning started like most days when I am training
   dogs. I was a few miles from my house and turned up the hill on
   the Service Flats Road . I let my dogs out of the box; jumped into
   my truck and followed them up the road for a mile letting them
   clean out. I had 8 dogs with me and 7 of them were very
   experienced 2, 3, and 4 year olds. I had one 5 month old pup. I
   loaded 4 dogs on the top of the box and 4 inside the box. I did
   not have to drive far and the dogs sounded off letting me know a
   bear had crossed the road. My friend Bryon had driven up from
   Lewiston to train some of his young dogs. I turned out a 4 year
   old named Jasper, he left the road and let me know the track was
   fresh. I told Bryon turn his dogs loose as I did. They quickly
   dropped into a canyon where bears hang in the brushy bottoms in
   daylight hours. When all the dogs reached the bottom 5 dogs went
   up the other side of the canyon headed toward Fish Creek
   campground. The other group of dogs came right back up the hill to
   us. They put the bears in a tree 20 minutes later. The other group
   of dogs treed about the same time about 1- 1/2 miles away. Bryon
   and I went to the nearest dogs first. When we were under the tree
   we found they had a mature sow and a 2-year-old cub. We took a few
   pictures and we were back in the trucks ready to go to the other
   dogs. We drove back up to where we heard the group of 5 dogs top
   over and shortly there after tree the bear. When we checked where
   the dogs still had the bear treed. We drove as close as we could 
   stopped and listened, they were about 4 hundred yards away treeing
   solid. I made the decision to move the truck 200 yards to the low
   side of the saddle; this would be an easy way back with the dogs.
   When Bryon and I crested the hill instead of hearing a roar of
   barking dogs treeing we

Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

2006-08-07 Thread JJJN



Zeke Yewdall wrote:

 Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and deer 
 populations long term,

Actually they help restore balance to the areas, to a more natural 
existence when they evolved together this is true, But when you take 
wolves away for a hundred years then spring them back in you put the 
ungulates at a terrible disadvantage and as a result you have some areas 
that are now void of them as a result - No that does not mean they will 
kill them all or will it stay that way,but now we are asking ungulates 
to catch up on 100 years of evolution that the wolves never missed out 
on. What it means is change for everything concerned.  I think in 
another 100 years the balance will return and in places like Yellowstone 
we will see many benefits and some benefits are happening right now.

 as they evolved together.  They weren't a problem for thousands and 
 thousands of years.  Putting domestic animals that were relatively 
 easy to kill, and that we owned in place of the native game was when 
 the problem began.  It's sort of like leaving all your food out on the 
 ground in bear country, and then claiming the bears are the problem.  
 We've compounded it by reducing habitat for the wild game, so the 
 wolves learn to eat other prey that they normally wouldn't.

Actually the biggest problem is not the Wolf eating Cows and Sheep, That 
will put many of the poor and small farmers out of business in time but 
the Monforts will afford protection.  The BIG problem is how they can re 
distribute the Ungulate populations as they leave areas they once fled 
to for protection. The opposite is now happening , Ungulates are fleeing 
to the agricultural areas as they are protected now from hunters most of 
the year there.This affords them temporary protection from Wolves.  It 
is on these crop lands that the Elk and Deer find ample food and 
protection, at least until the Wolf expands his range.  So then we plan 
to hunt the wolf.  That plan just affords the elk protection to 
overpopulate and we have Millions of dollars in damages on crop lands, 
And wolves forced into the Badlands by hunters, will survive  just fine 
on ample grazing livestock. So it is a loose loose situation for the 
Livestock or crop producer.  The Feds provide no relief to the producers 
for the damages and only the big corporate producers will survive this 
human inflicted mess. We hunters will kill wolves as we are allowed, but 
until you understand how much damage one wolf can do, you will never 
understand that hunting as a control is to little to late.  It took 
Hunters, trappers, and cyanide getter guns 70 years to push the wolf 
back in the early days.  It is just humorous to think that the that the 
plan is to hunt them for a control measure.  When the wolf gets 
established in the badlands, that control will be about as effective as 
a fly swatter for mosquitoes.

 It a classic case of overpopulation of an atypical food species, which 
 is usually kept in check by an increase in predators that can eat 
 them, but normally don't.  It's just rather uncomfortable to find that 
 we and our livestock are the food species in this equation, instead of 
 some hapless field mice or such.

When you take an Equation eliminate 7 variables, add 10 new ones, 
eliminate 2 that can never be restored, because of the first 7 then add 
back 5 of the first,  the equation will never return the results it did 
before the original intervention. As a result we will never know the 
land as Lewis and Clark did. 

Global Warming will probably wipe out these folks much faster so it is a 
moot point anyway.


 That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that killing 
 wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would probably be a 
 good idea.  Long term, it's not going to solve anything since we've 
 caused the situation.  But long term, it wouldnt be good for wolves to 
 learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native game back.

Yes I agree,  Thats why I carry a BIG stick.  I hope I don't sound 
scorching or preaching, I don't intend it if I do, I simply want to make 
the point this is not a simple problem we have created for ourselves.

Jim


 On 8/7/06, *Kirk McLoren* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember
 the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember
 those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota
 Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without
 those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That
 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info
 as we sold our home back there.
 When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in
 that transition now.
 So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen
 much re control.
 I think it reasonable they will become the

Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

pyrolytic distillation. Drive the steam off and cap it.KirkMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, whatever. Can you make biodiesel out of them?Zeke Yewdall wrote: Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and deer populations long term, as they evolved together. They weren't a "problem" for thousands and thousands of years. Putting domestic animals that were relatively easy to kill, and that we "owned" in place of the native game was when the problem began. It's sort of like leaving all your food out on the ground in bear country, and then claiming the bears are the problem. We've compounded it by reducing habitat for the wild game, so the wolves learn to eat other prey that
they normally wouldn't. It a classic case of overpopulation of an atypical food species, which is usually kept in check by an increase in predators that can eat them, but normally don't. It's just rather uncomfortable to find that we and our livestock are the food species in this equation, instead of some hapless field mice or such. That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that killing wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would probably be a good idea. Long term, it's not going to solve anything since we've caused the situation. But long term, it wouldnt be good for wolves to learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native game back. On 8/7/06, *Kirk McLoren* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember the effort
and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info as we sold our home back there. When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in that transition now. So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen much re control. I think it reasonable they will become the problem they once were. They are still wolves and do what wolves do. Predators are predators. Kirk
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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

well there was the thread a while ago about making biodiesel from cats, and I recall we were going to turn Keith into biodiesel, so I imagine you could use wolves too.On 8/7/06, 
Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yeah, whatever.Can you make biodiesel out of them?Zeke Yewdall wrote: Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and deer populations long term, as they evolved together.They weren't a
 problem for thousands and thousands of years.Putting domestic animals that were relatively easy to kill, and that we owned in place of the native game was when the problem began.It's sort of
 like leaving all your food out on the ground in bear country, and then claiming the bears are the problem.We've compounded it by reducing habitat for the wild game, so the wolves learn to eat other prey that
 they normally wouldn't.It a classic case of overpopulation of an atypical food species, which is usually kept in check by an increase in predators that can eat them, but normally don't.It's just rather
 uncomfortable to find that we and our livestock are the food species in this equation, instead of some hapless field mice or such. That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that killing
 wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would probably be a good idea.Long term, it's not going to solve anything since we've caused the situation.But long term, it wouldnt be good for wolves to
 learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native game back. On 8/7/06, *Kirk McLoren* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota
 Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info
 as we sold our home back there. When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in that transition now. So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen
 much re control. I think it reasonable they will become the problem they once were. They are still wolves and do what wolves do. Predators are predators. Kirk
 */DHAJOGLO [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Kirk, I can't tell from your comment on this article whether you feel
 issues with wolves are dealt with improperly or if you feel the meat industry is going to take a real beating from them. We have wolves here in Minnesota and the farmers truly hate them. However,
 seeing as how the northern states make up a smaller percentage of beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be negligible. Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef populations
 would have to take a significant hit (in the order of hundreds of thousands) to really be impacted. Also, reading the post by Richard, he seems more concerned about the game populations and
 our safety. Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our cattle industry: http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm
 http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm Regards, -daveDate: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuelSubject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near GrangevilleIf you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them starthunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
steers in one night. So much for they only kill for food. Theystarted on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of businesssoon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.KirkLady and Blackey: Cry WolfBy Scott Richard
 Hi, my name is Scott Richards and ___ Biofuel mailing list 
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

2006-08-07 Thread Paul S Cantrell

Oh wait, now I'm confused...I thought you were making BD from the sheep, but now it is the wolves??? Little Red Riding Hood couldn't keep up.On 8/7/06, Zeke Yewdall
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:well there was the thread a while ago about making biodiesel from cats, and I recall we were going to turn Keith into biodiesel, so I imagine you could use wolves too.
On 8/7/06, 
Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Yeah, whatever.Can you make biodiesel out of them?Zeke Yewdall wrote: Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and deer populations long term, as they evolved together.They weren't a
 problem for thousands and thousands of years.Putting domestic animals that were relatively easy to kill, and that we owned in place of the native game was when the problem began.It's sort of
 like leaving all your food out on the ground in bear country, and then claiming the bears are the problem.We've compounded it by reducing habitat for the wild game, so the wolves learn to eat other prey that
 they normally wouldn't.It a classic case of overpopulation of an atypical food species, which is usually kept in check by an increase in predators that can eat them, but normally don't.It's just rather
 uncomfortable to find that we and our livestock are the food species in this equation, instead of some hapless field mice or such. That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that killing
 wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would probably be a good idea.Long term, it's not going to solve anything since we've caused the situation.But long term, it wouldnt be good for wolves to
 learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native game back. On 8/7/06, *Kirk McLoren* 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota
 Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info
 as we sold our home back there. When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in that transition now. So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen
 much re control. I think it reasonable they will become the problem they once were. They are still wolves and do what wolves do. Predators are predators. Kirk

 */DHAJOGLO [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Kirk, I can't tell from your comment on this article whether you feel
 issues with wolves are dealt with improperly or if you feel the meat industry is going to take a real beating from them. We have wolves here in Minnesota and the farmers truly hate them. However,
 seeing as how the northern states make up a smaller percentage of beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be negligible. Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef populations
 would have to take a significant hit (in the order of hundreds of thousands) to really be impacted. Also, reading the post by Richard, he seems more concerned about the game populations and
 our safety. Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our cattle industry: 
http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm
 http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm Regards,
 -daveDate: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuelSubject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near GrangevilleIf you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them starthunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
steers in one night. So much for they only kill for food. Theystarted on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of businesssoon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.KirkLady and Blackey: Cry WolfBy Scott Richard
 Hi, my name is Scott Richards and ___ Biofuel mailing list 

Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 

http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: 
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): 
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
  Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups. 
http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=41144/*http://groups.yahoo.com/local/newemail.html

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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville