Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
hakan, When we talk about oil prices, we are talking on the prices and trading on the spot market trading on the market means trade on the international exchanges. Most large supplies are contracted and not bought on the spot market, but the contractual prices are regulated by the spot market, This means that the prices are dependent on demand and supply, at the ultimate levels and margins. Before the war, the total Iraq production was near the swing (extra) production capacity. . .By taking out the swing capacity, the oil price get truly dependent on demand, since there are no more cushions, other than US purchases to its strategic inventory reserves. If the demand rises more than expected, as the non foreseeable demands from China and India, the market get very sensitive and without extra production capacity, the price will be the only regulating factor. i don't argue that the iraqui war hasn't had an impact on oil prices. but what you are saying still only underscores my point: there are certain market forces which influence oil prices, and which have been conspicuously unaffected by the u.s. invasion. in the markets, demand is a highly speculative thing. it's what the traders *think* demand is or will be. so they look at this storm two or three days from the gulf of mexico and they think hmmm, *if* this storm continues moving towards the gulf, and *if* it damages any of the oil installations or runs a tanker aground, then supply will be ever so little bit tighter, so i better put in more buy orders now before prices start to climb. this of course drives up prices overnight by ~10% when in reality nothing has changed that should cause this i.e. there has been no change in supply. yet somehow, the same traders didn't look at the impending invasion and say wow, iraqui production is equivalent to the swing production; an invasion could disrupt the flow from iraq, which would *really* tighten up supply so i better start buying now before prices start to climb. given the impact the tro pical storm had, you'd expect the prospect of invasion to have caused an immediate leap of at least 35% to 50%, with continued dramatic spikes as the iraqui situation became increasingly unstable. anyway, it seems we are talking about the same thing from slightly different angles, and perhaps merely differ on the importance of the trading markets. -chris b. In a message dated 7/7/05 7:16:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When we talk about oil prices, we are talking on the prices and trading on the spot market, which are relatively small volumes. Most large supplies are contracted and not bought on the spot market, but the contractual prices are regulated by the spot market, This means that the prices are dependent on demand and supply, at the ultimate levels and margins. Before the war, the total Iraq production was near the swing (extra) production capacity, which is what was needed to maintain a low oil price. There are only two price regulating factors, the swing production and the US purchases to its strategic inventory reserves. The latter was introduced after the first oil crises, 35 years ago, to give US a pricing tool for managing any new crises. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
In the diamond industry, DeBeers Diamonds owns about 90% of the diamond mines in the world. They do this, and it is no secret. They give out a vry limited number ofcontracts to diamond cutters and suppliers. Furthermore, they restrict the number of diamonds and quality put onto the market in order to control price. Of course the people who win a contract with them want another one next year, so they pay well to get it, then they charge well to keep it. It would be absolutely incomprehensible if the oil industry didn't do this. how do people swallow this bunk? by the same reasoning, oil should have surpassed $75/bbl the very day we invaded iraq. Good point. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 7:29 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future i've never heard this term of 'the bilderbergers' before, butidon't find teh notion too farfetched. more likely to me that their idea of safeguarding supply is simply to make it more expensive, regardless of whether it provokes economic downturn or depression. take the fact that oil prices spiked again simply because of this tropical storm in the gulf right now; the rationale being that it could disrupt supply. how do people swallow this bunk? by the same reasoning, oil should have surpassed $75/bbl the very day we invaded iraq. as far as your last comment is concerned, isn't it interesting that left wing parties and labor movements were far more widespread and mainstream *prior to (and during)* the great depression than *after* (this is especially true of the situation in the u.s.a.).? -chris b. -Original Message-From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:52:06 -0700Subject: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future From the latest ASPO Newsletter: http://www.peakoil.net/ Expect a severe downturn in the world's economy over the next two years as Bilderbergers try to safeguard the remaining oil supply by taking money out of people's hands. In a recession or, at worst, a depression, the population will be forced to dramatically cut down their spending habits, thus ensuring a longer supply of oil to the world's rich as they try to figure out what to do. I know, your eyes glaze over when you hear anything about the Bilderbergers :-) Interesting idea, tho. My Dad was poor enough in the Great Depression that hey traded with their Polish neighbors for sauerkraut and potatoes. OTOH, my Mom was sort of aristocracy, and the same event hardly even broke their stride! Funny how economic downturn may even be in the best interest of the world's richest -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
Hello Ryan
In the diamond industry, DeBeers Diamonds owns about 90% of the
diamond mines in the world.
De Beers controls about 60 per cent of the world diamond trade, but
your point stands nonetheless.
They do this, and it is no secret. They give out a vry limited
number of contracts to diamond cutters and suppliers. Furthermore,
they restrict the number of diamonds and quality put onto the market
in order to control price. Of course the people who win a contract
with them want another one next year, so they pay well to get it,
then they charge well to keep it.
And, for a lo-ong time, national governments involved have kept in
step by making it illegal to own or trade any diamonds that didn't go
through their official channels. In South Africa, IDB - Illicit
Diamond Buying - lands you in jail.
The laws were tough, but there was no social stigma to breaking
them. Honest tradesmen and other pillars of society would get caught
with uncut diamonds, go to jail, serve their terms and pick up their
lives again where they'd left off. Nobody thought they'd done
anything bad, or even dishonest, only illegal. A mayor of a small
town in the Northern Cape got caught, went to jail, did his term, and
was elected mayor again.
http://journeytoforever.org/keith_pocket.html
Put it in Your Pocket
There's another side to diamonds that in Africa at any rate give them
much in common with oil: many of Africa's wars are financed by the
lucrative trade in illegal diamonds.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3230627.stm
BBC NEWS
31 October, 2003
'Blood diamonds' deal under fire
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3581799.stm
BBC NEWS
30 March, 2004
Conflict diamonds 'still on sale'
http://www.publici.org/dtaweb/icij_bow.asp?Section=ChapterChapNum=6
The Center for Public Integrity
Conflict Diamonds are Forever
Best wishes
Keith
It would be absolutely incomprehensible if the oil industry didn't do this.
how do people swallow this bunk? by the same reasoning, oil should
have surpassed $75/bbl the very day we invaded iraq.
Good point.
- Original Message -
From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
i've never heard this term of 'the bilderbergers' before,
but i don't find teh notion too farfetched. more likely to me that
their idea of safeguarding supply is simply to make it more
expensive, regardless of whether it provokes economic downturn or
depression. take the fact that oil prices spiked again simply
because of this tropical storm in the gulf right now; the rationale
being that it could disrupt supply.
how do people swallow this bunk? by the same reasoning, oil should
have surpassed $75/bbl the very day we invaded iraq.
as far as your last comment is concerned, isn't it interesting that
left wing parties and labor movements were far more widespread and
mainstream *prior to (and during)* the great depression than *after*
(this is especially true of the situation in the u.s.a.).?
-chris b.
-Original Message-
From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:52:06 -0700
Subject: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
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From the latest ASPO Newsletter:
http://www.peakoil.net/http://www.peakoil.net/
Expect a severe downturn in the world's economy over
the next two years as Bilderbergers try to safeguard
the remaining oil supply by taking money out of people's
hands. In a recession or, at worst, a depression, the
population will be forced to dramatically cut down their
spending habits, thus ensuring a longer supply of oil to
the world's rich as they try to figure out what to do.
I know, your eyes glaze over when you hear anything about
the Bilderbergers :-) Interesting idea, tho. My Dad was
poor enough in the Great Depression that hey traded with
their Polish neighbors for sauerkraut and potatoes. OTOH,
my Mom was sort of aristocracy, and the same event hardly
even broke their stride! Funny how economic downturn may
even be in the best interest of the world's richest
-K
Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
hi hakan. i don't know the figures, but the oil production in iraq since desert storm has been a very small piece of the pie, much diminished from what it had been. i can't argue, though, with the impactof bothincreased demand from emerging economies and the decline in the value of the $u.s. but in my view, this only underscores my point. becauseadding a major military conflict (it doesn't matter how brief or easy they thought it would be: an invasion of a country by a force in excess of 15 personnel is a major conflict, no matter how you care to dissect it) smack in the midst of the world's primary oil production area, to this already volatile economic situation should only have had a much greater impact on oil prices than a single storm. a storm which *might* afffect one of the lesser oil-producing areas by disruptingsome of its production. the point i'm trying to make is that they--those who control the oil/energy industry--will stubbornly refuse to view the iraq situation as putting a large part of world supply at risk.if you were to apply this rationale, the price of oil would spike in a manner that would provoke public outrage and a dramatic change of the american public's attitude regarding the iraq war. chris b. -Original Message-From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:43:31 +0200Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future Chris b,The fact is that the oil price has gone up very much thanks to the Iraq venture. The oil production in Iraq, before the occupation, was almost as large as what they call the "swing production", or with other words the cushion that evened out production and demand. The biggest problem andreason, has also been the US filling up their strategic storage, which was going down due to the war. Bush has been filling up, independent of the price of the day.With the "swing production" gone and higher demand from China and India, the price have moved up in a steady way and will continue to do so. It is also interesting to note that the high oil price is mainly a US problem and countries that pegged their currencies to the greenback. In many other currencies, the oil price has not gone up that much. This because the dollar lost significantly in value, 0.89 dollar for one Euro, before the war, has changed to 1.25 to 1.35. This mean that EU is less effected by the higher oil price in dollar.One reason for the low response at the time of the war, was the general opinion that US would gain and be able to stabilize the oil supplies rapidly. This has not happened and in combination with that, it was discovered that a large part of the "general oil reserves" was paperwork. It is much worse times to come and maybe a serious US lead depression will be necessary to establish lower oil demand levels. On the other hand, it might nor help, since the growth in China and India, will outstrip the effects of a depression. A depression will probably hit US, but it has more to do with adjustments to a new world economic balance.The forgiveness of the African debts, is necessary and sound adjustments of the books, not our leaders sudden rebirth and alter egoistic mood.HakanAt 03:29 AM 7/6/2005, you wrote:i've never heard this term of 'the bilderbergers' before, but i don't find teh notion too farfetched. more likely to me that their idea of safeguarding supply is simply to make it more expensive, regardless of whether it provokes economic downturn or depression. take the fact that oil prices spiked again simply because of this tropical storm in the gulf right now; the rationale being that it could disrupt supply.how do people swallow this bunk? by the same reasoning, oil should have surpassed $75/bbl the very day we invaded iraq.as far as your last comment is concerned, isn't it interesting that left wing parties and labor movements were far more widespread and mainstream *prior to (and during)* the great depression than *after* (this is especially true of the situation in the u.s.a.).?-chris b.-Original Message-From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:52:06 -0700Subject: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future From the latest ASPO Newsletter:http://www.peakoil.net/http://www.peakoil.net/ Expect a severe downturn in the world's economy over the next two years as Bilderbergers try to safeguard the remaining oil supply by taking money out of people's hands. In a recession or, at worst, a depression, the population will be forced to dramatically cut down their spending habits, thus ensuring a longer supply of oil to the world's rich as they try to figure out what to do.I know, your eyes glaze over when you hear anything aboutthe Bilderbergers :-) Interesting idea, tho. My Dad waspoor enough in the Great Depression that hey traded withtheir Polish neighbors for sauerkraut and potatoes. OTOH,my Mom was sort of aristocracy,
Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
Chris b, When we talk about oil prices, we are talking on the prices and trading on the spot market, which are relatively small volumes. Most large supplies are contracted and not bought on the spot market, but the contractual prices are regulated by the spot market, This means that the prices are dependent on demand and supply, at the ultimate levels and margins. Before the war, the total Iraq production was near the swing (extra) production capacity, which is what was needed to maintain a low oil price. There are only two price regulating factors, the swing production and the US purchases to its strategic inventory reserves. The latter was introduced after the first oil crises, 35 years ago, to give US a pricing tool for managing any new crises. By taking out the swing capacity, the oil price get truly dependent on demand, since there are no more cushions, other than US purchases to its strategic inventory reserves. If the demand rises more than expected, as the non foreseeable demands from China and India, the market get very sensitive and without extra production capacity, the price will be the only regulating factor. It does not help that US continued to fill up their reserves at higher price, which are larger volumes than the rises from China and India together. Bush did in fact completely control the price with the purchases to the inventory reserve and by that guaranteed a high price and large profits for his buddies. Despite this, he has the nerve to blame China and India for the high prices. It seems to be no limits on how you can fool the American public with a little propaganda. I do not in any way want to claim that the American public is stupid, I know better than making that kind of generalizations. That many are a bit naive and still belive in the tooth fairy, is an other issue. It seems however that the American public already are in the process of changing the attitude to the Iraq war, if one should belive the recent polls. Bush is aware of it and has admitted that he has to do more explaining in public appearances, so the American people will understand him. -:) Hakan At 01:55 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: hi hakan. i don't know the figures, but the oil production in iraq since desert storm has been a very small piece of the pie, much diminished from what it had been. i can't argue, though, with the impact of both increased demand from emerging economies and the decline in the value of the $u.s. but in my view, this only underscores my point. because adding a major military conflict (it doesn't matter how brief or easy they thought it would be: an invasion of a country by a force in excess of 15 personnel is a major conflict, no matter how you care to dissect it) smack in the midst of the world's primary oil production area, to this already volatile economic situation should only have had a much greater impact on oil prices than a single storm. a storm which *might* afffect one of the lesser oil-producing areas by disrupting some of its production. the point i'm trying to make is that they--those who control the oil/energy industry--will stubbornly refuse to view the iraq situation as putting a large part of world supply at risk. if you were to apply this rationale, the price of oil would spike in a manner that would provoke public outrage and a dramatic change of the american public's attitude regarding the iraq war. chris b. -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:43:31 +0200 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future Chris b, The fact is that the oil price has gone up very much thanks to the Iraq venture. The oil production in Iraq, before the occupation, was almost as large as what they call the swing production, or with other words the cushion that evened out production and demand. The biggest problem and reason, has also been the US filling up their strategic storage, which was going down due to the war. Bush has been filling up, independent of the price of the day. With the swing production gone and higher demand from China and India, the price have moved up in a steady way and will continue to do so. It is also interesting to note that the high oil price is mainly a US problem and countries that pegged their currencies to the greenback. In many other currencies, the oil price has not gone up that much. This because the dollar lost significantly in value! , 0.89 dollar for one Euro, before the war, has changed to 1.25 to 1.35. This mean that EU is less effected by the higher oil price in dollar. One reason for the low response at the time of the war, was the general opinion that US would gain and be able to stabilize the oil supplies rapidly. This has not happened and in combination with that, it was discovered that a large part of the general oil reserves was paperwork. It is much worse times to come
Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
on 7/7/05 6:15 PM, Hakan Falk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bush did in fact completely control the price with the purchases to the inventory reserve and by that guaranteed a high price and large profits for his buddies. Despite this, he has the nerve to blame China and India for the high prices. It seems to be no limits on how you can fool the American public with a little propaganda. I do not in any way want to claim that the American public is stupid, I know better than making that kind of generalizations. I don't consider MYSELF stupid, of course :), but I've never heard before that Bush's additions to the strategic petroleum reserve exceed the consumption of China + India. I do read many accounts of how those two nations' increased consumption is a main cause of the high prices, and I don't mean TV news and my local paper. I get my news from AlterNet, CommonDreams, Smirking Chimp, Energy Bulletin.net, AlJazeera (english version), and HuffingtonPost. Still, you can only make so much effort to be informed, and if even THOSE sources are tainted (ie, controlled), then the propaganda efforts are successful. Where shall we Google next? -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
Ken, My English is bad. I know that and I am sorry if it was not clear. What I thought I said, was that the rise of the consumption in China or India, was comparable to the Bush purchases to the strategic petroleum reserve and I also thought that I was safe in this statement. US uses 25.4 (2003) and 25.1% (2004) of the total yearly oil production in the world and if I am not wrong, the strategic reserve has a capacity of 6 month of US petroleum use, or 12% of the world's yearly production. If Bush has replenish 20+% of the reserve, he must have bought around 1.2% of the world production for this purpose. China uses 7.0% of world production and India 2.8% in 2003 and 7.6% and 3.1% in 2004. The rise is 0.6% and 0.3% and together 0.9%. Together they have around 8 times the population of USA and use 60% less total energy. This means that Bush purchases to the strategic reserve, which according to the rules should be done in times of low prices, had larger effect on prices, than the rise of use in China and India. Bush have continued in 2005, to aggressively buy to the reserves. I can however understand that it had to be slower, to pick up the slack of the rise in China and India, this is probably one of the reasons behind his aggravations and fixations on them. What rights do they have to buy US oil? -:) Hakan At 03:46 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: on 7/7/05 6:15 PM, Hakan Falk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bush did in fact completely control the price with the purchases to the inventory reserve and by that guaranteed a high price and large profits for his buddies. Despite this, he has the nerve to blame China and India for the high prices. It seems to be no limits on how you can fool the American public with a little propaganda. I do not in any way want to claim that the American public is stupid, I know better than making that kind of generalizations. I don't consider MYSELF stupid, of course :), but I've never heard before that Bush's additions to the strategic petroleum reserve exceed the consumption of China + India. I do read many accounts of how those two nations' increased consumption is a main cause of the high prices, and I don't mean TV news and my local paper. I get my news from AlterNet, CommonDreams, Smirking Chimp, Energy Bulletin.net, AlJazeera (english version), and HuffingtonPost. Still, you can only make so much effort to be informed, and if even THOSE sources are tainted (ie, controlled), then the propaganda efforts are successful. Where shall we Google next? -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
i've never heard this term of 'the bilderbergers' before, butidon't find teh notion too farfetched. more likely to me that their idea of safeguarding supply is simply to make it more expensive, regardless of whether it provokes economic downturn or depression. take the fact that oil prices spiked again simply because of this tropical storm in the gulf right now; the rationale being that it could disrupt supply. how do people swallow this bunk? by the same reasoning, oil should have surpassed $75/bbl the very day we invaded iraq. as far as your last comment is concerned, isn't it interesting that left wing parties and labor movements were far more widespread and mainstream *prior to (and during)* the great depression than *after* (this is especially true of the situation in the u.s.a.).? -chris b. -Original Message-From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:52:06 -0700Subject: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future From the latest ASPO Newsletter: http://www.peakoil.net/ Expect a severe downturn in the world's economy over the next two years as Bilderbergers try to safeguard the remaining oil supply by taking money out of people's hands. In a recession or, at worst, a depression, the population will be forced to dramatically cut down their spending habits, thus ensuring a longer supply of oil to the world's rich as they try to figure out what to do. I know, your eyes glaze over when you hear anything about the Bilderbergers :-) Interesting idea, tho. My Dad was poor enough in the Great Depression that hey traded with their Polish neighbors for sauerkraut and potatoes. OTOH, my Mom was sort of aristocracy, and the same event hardly even broke their stride! Funny how economic downturn may even be in the best interest of the world's richest -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
on 7/5/05 6:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: isn't it interesting that left wing parties and labor movements were far more widespread and mainstream *prior to (and during)* the great depression than *after* (this is especially true of the situation in the u.s.a.).? -chris b. As they say, it has to get worse before it gets better! Our own Decl. of Indep. talks about how people will put up with much $%@ before finally pushing back. Oil price is a good example. England now pays something like $8 USD per gallon for petrol -- I'm still only paying $2.50 for dinodiesel. Will US wake up at $6? Probly not. 15$ ?? Maybe.-K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
"left wing parties and labor movements were far more widespread and mainstream *prior to (and during)* the great depression" Eugene Debs: Socialist andPresidential Candidate Debs ran in 1900,1904,1908,1912 and 1920, the last race from Atlanta Prison. The slogan on a campaign poster in 1920 read: From Atlanta Prison to the Whitehouse, 1920, and a popular campaign button showed Debs in prison garb, standing outside the prison gates, with the caption: For President Convict No. 9653, Debs received nearly one million votes that year! http://www.eugenevdebs.com/pages/polit.html Mike Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 7/5/05 6:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: isn't it interesting that left wing parties and labor movements were far more widespread and mainstream *prior to (and during)* the great depression than *after* (this is especially true of the situation in the u.s.a.).? -chris b.As they say, "it has to get worse before it gets better!" Our ownDecl. of Indep. talks about how people will put up with much $%@before finally pushing back. Oil price is a good example. Englandnow pays something like $8 USD per gallon for petrol -- I'm stillonly paying $2.50 for dinodiesel. Will US wake up at $6? Probly not.15$ ?? Maybe. -K ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
Chris b, The fact is that the oil price has gone up very much thanks to the Iraq venture. The oil production in Iraq, before the occupation, was almost as large as what they call the swing production, or with other words the cushion that evened out production and demand. The biggest problem and reason, has also been the US filling up their strategic storage, which was going down due to the war. Bush has been filling up, independent of the price of the day. With the swing production gone and higher demand from China and India, the price have moved up in a steady way and will continue to do so. It is also interesting to note that the high oil price is mainly a US problem and countries that pegged their currencies to the greenback. In many other currencies, the oil price has not gone up that much. This because the dollar lost significantly in value, 0.89 dollar for one Euro, before the war, has changed to 1.25 to 1.35. This mean that EU is less effected by the higher oil price in dollar. One reason for the low response at the time of the war, was the general opinion that US would gain and be able to stabilize the oil supplies rapidly. This has not happened and in combination with that, it was discovered that a large part of the general oil reserves was paperwork. It is much worse times to come and maybe a serious US lead depression will be necessary to establish lower oil demand levels. On the other hand, it might nor help, since the growth in China and India, will outstrip the effects of a depression. A depression will probably hit US, but it has more to do with adjustments to a new world economic balance. The forgiveness of the African debts, is necessary and sound adjustments of the books, not our leaders sudden rebirth and alter egoistic mood. Hakan At 03:29 AM 7/6/2005, you wrote: i've never heard this term of 'the bilderbergers' before, but i don't find teh notion too farfetched. more likely to me that their idea of safeguarding supply is simply to make it more expensive, regardless of whether it provokes economic downturn or depression. take the fact that oil prices spiked again simply because of this tropical storm in the gulf right now; the rationale being that it could disrupt supply. how do people swallow this bunk? by the same reasoning, oil should have surpassed $75/bbl the very day we invaded iraq. as far as your last comment is concerned, isn't it interesting that left wing parties and labor movements were far more widespread and mainstream *prior to (and during)* the great depression than *after* (this is especially true of the situation in the u.s.a.).? -chris b. -Original Message- From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:52:06 -0700 Subject: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future From the latest ASPO Newsletter: http://www.peakoil.net/http://www.peakoil.net/ Expect a severe downturn in the world's economy over the next two years as Bilderbergers try to safeguard the remaining oil supply by taking money out of people's hands. In a recession or, at worst, a depression, the population will be forced to dramatically cut down their spending habits, thus ensuring a longer supply of oil to the world's rich as they try to figure out what to do. I know, your eyes glaze over when you hear anything about the Bilderbergers :-) Interesting idea, tho. My Dad was poor enough in the Great Depression that hey traded with their Polish neighbors for sauerkraut and potatoes. OTOH, my Mom was sort of aristocracy, and the same event hardly even broke their stride! Funny how economic downturn may even be in the best interest of the world's richest -K ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel%40sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail
[Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
From the latest ASPO Newsletter: http://www.peakoil.net/ Expect a severe downturn in the world's economy over the next two years as Bilderbergers try to safeguard the remaining oil supply by taking money out of people's hands. In a recession or, at worst, a depression, the population will be forced to dramatically cut down their spending habits, thus ensuring a longer supply of oil to the world's rich as they try to figure out what to do. I know, your eyes glaze over when you hear anything about the Bilderbergers :-) Interesting idea, tho. My Dad was poor enough in the Great Depression that hey traded with their Polish neighbors for sauerkraut and potatoes. OTOH, my Mom was sort of aristocracy, and the same event hardly even broke their stride! Funny how economic downturn may even be in the best interest of the world's richest -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
