Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
We are trying to scale the batteries and inverter for maximum efficiency. I will investigate the inverter options further if 48v battery charging is more efficient. You mention that battery inefficiency isn't that bad if charge/discharge is done at sane rates. Can you elaborate on this? We expect about 5-10Kw/day use. Perhaps the number of batteries will affect the rate of charge. We do not intend to run 12v loads off this system, so it seems to follow from your recommendation that 48v is most advisable to run. -What is the effect of emission reduction technologies backpressure on genset function (compression)? Is this a concern? Can anything be done? -Another question: are gensets are less sensitive than auto engines to the unknowns associated with long term WVO use? -How should the power be conditioned coming into the house to protect computers and appliances? Thanks in advance for any replies. Jai Haissman On Dec 26, 2004, at 7:10 AM, Martin K wrote: Jai Haissman wrote: greetings... great thread! I just found this after several weeks of election related decline. I am in NorCal, USA with an Elliot Systems genset ready to green our local neighborhood. It is a 19Kw/21Kw peak set for 3 households: 2 neighbors and ourselves. We intend to use B100 for engine longevity, but are considering WVO. The reason we considered this is we cannot utilize the more efficient solar PV systems and rebates. We are committed to getting out of our oil/dirty power dependency. Given our situation on a hill with northern exposure, solar, hydro and wind are not an option. Therefore, it seems liquid sun is our best alternative. We are trying to get grid tied using a solar system, since our local utility only recognizes solar, methane, wind, and hydro for net metering purposes and rebates. We are strategically setting up our genset as a backup system. This complicates matters, since instead of a direct intertie, we must employ batteries to support the generator's position. The minimum (inefficient given our solar exposure) solar setup is the basis for the intertie, but the genset, when run, will charge the same batteries as the solar, and I believe we can use the same inverter. You mention that you battery pack is setup for 12v This means that at 100 amps of charging you will only be loading the generator to 1.2kW. How many watt-hours is your battery pack? There is an automatic disconnect to prevent loads from backcharging the powerlines when the utility is down. The batteries allow us to run the genset for several hours every other day, charging the batteries, then working off those until the next cycle. There are inherent inefficiencies: power loss in conversion from 120v to 12v batteries, then back again. If you are not running any 12v loads off of this battery pack, you should run at 48v to provide better efficiency in charging and the inverter. If this is not possible because you already have the inverter, all is not lost. It's just a way of getting better efficiency. Moving hundreds of amps around at 12v gets much more efficient if you switch to 48v. heat can be recycled in our hot water heater and appleseed reactor. We would prefer not to use the batteries because of the inefficiencies, and led disposal issues, although led is recycled these days. Because of our local conditions, this is the only green option. The relative efficiency is still greater than anything our local utility is providing. And your system won't go down if the utility does. Lead is recycled pretty well these days. Batteries aren't all that inefficient if charged at sane rates and discharged at sane rates. They will also last a long time if kept at reasonable temperatures. A couple of unresolved questions: - What distance should the genset be from our house for ventilation safety (regardless of prevailing winds)? 15-30 feet. Are you putting your batteries out here too? If not: you may find that you absolutely need to run at a higher voltage if you want any sort of efficiency, or you will have to buy a large amount of 4/0 welding cable for your battery pack leads. I'd put a car muffler on the exhaust and insulate the shed that you put it in, to make it as quiet as possible. - Is there any exhaust technology yet out that can treat NOx/PCH content? I heard a catalytic converter was in development for this (very expensive last I heard). You can run a catalytic converter on a diesel if it is running biodiesel or no-sulfur diesel (not available in the US) Good luck, please keep us informed of what you do, and please ask any questions you have. A lot of people here have done things like this before and may have a lot of advice for your group. -- Martin K http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Jai Haissman wrote: Thanks for the reply Martin! We are trying to scale the batteries and inverter for maximum efficiency. I will investigate the inverter options further if 48v battery charging is more efficient. You mention that battery inefficiency isn't that bad if charge/discharge is done at sane rates. Can you elaborate on this? We expect about 5-10Kw/day use. Perhaps the number of batteries will affect the rate of charge. We do not intend to run 12v loads off this system, so it seems to follow from your recommendation that 48v is most advisable to run. You should have a charge controlling device on your battery pack. Batteries are mysterious devices, you most certainly don't want to just guess to see if they're charged correctly. By 'sane rates' I mean don't run 500 amp discharges too often, and don't charge them at that rate either, just common sense type stuff. I don't know how big the capacity of your batteries are either, so I can't really say. This webpage will become very helpful if you would like to know how to preserve your batteries: http://www.batteryfaq.org/ In my original email I said 15-30 feet from the house for the gen-set. You mention now that you aren't going to use any low voltage loads. If this is the case, you can move your battery pack to the same shed with your generator, but the batteries will last longer if they are kept at a constant temperature around 60-70 degrees F. It is possible to keep a generator in a basement with the appropriate venting, though keeping the noise down would be difficult. -What is the effect of emission reduction technologies backpressure on genset function (compression)? Is this a concern? Can anything be done? If you use car or truck components on a generator there will be minimal back-pressure. The downside is that something such as a catalytic converter may not reach its ideal operating temperature. -Another question: are gensets are less sensitive than auto engines to the unknowns associated with long term WVO use? Depends on the gen-set but generally I would say it's about the same. Car engines may be more picky because of new injection technology, but in general I would say that they are also made more cheaply - this all depends on what engine your gen-set has. -How should the power be conditioned coming into the house to protect computers and appliances? If you purchase an inverter that costs you $2000 you will not need any extra protection, it will probably be better electricity than you get from your utility company. Thanks in advance for any replies. Jai Haissman -- Martin K http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Jai Haissman wrote: greetings... great thread! I just found this after several weeks of election related decline. I am in NorCal, USA with an Elliot Systems genset ready to green our local neighborhood. It is a 19Kw/21Kw peak set for 3 households: 2 neighbors and ourselves. We intend to use B100 for engine longevity, but are considering WVO. The reason we considered this is we cannot utilize the more efficient solar PV systems and rebates. We are committed to getting out of our oil/dirty power dependency. Given our situation on a hill with northern exposure, solar, hydro and wind are not an option. Therefore, it seems liquid sun is our best alternative. We are trying to get grid tied using a solar system, since our local utility only recognizes solar, methane, wind, and hydro for net metering purposes and rebates. We are strategically setting up our genset as a backup system. This complicates matters, since instead of a direct intertie, we must employ batteries to support the generator's position. The minimum (inefficient given our solar exposure) solar setup is the basis for the intertie, but the genset, when run, will charge the same batteries as the solar, and I believe we can use the same inverter. You mention that you battery pack is setup for 12v This means that at 100 amps of charging you will only be loading the generator to 1.2kW. How many watt-hours is your battery pack? There is an automatic disconnect to prevent loads from backcharging the powerlines when the utility is down. The batteries allow us to run the genset for several hours every other day, charging the batteries, then working off those until the next cycle. There are inherent inefficiencies: power loss in conversion from 120v to 12v batteries, then back again. If you are not running any 12v loads off of this battery pack, you should run at 48v to provide better efficiency in charging and the inverter. If this is not possible because you already have the inverter, all is not lost. It's just a way of getting better efficiency. Moving hundreds of amps around at 12v gets much more efficient if you switch to 48v. heat can be recycled in our hot water heater and appleseed reactor. We would prefer not to use the batteries because of the inefficiencies, and led disposal issues, although led is recycled these days. Because of our local conditions, this is the only green option. The relative efficiency is still greater than anything our local utility is providing. And your system won't go down if the utility does. Lead is recycled pretty well these days. Batteries aren't all that inefficient if charged at sane rates and discharged at sane rates. They will also last a long time if kept at reasonable temperatures. A couple of unresolved questions: - What distance should the genset be from our house for ventilation safety (regardless of prevailing winds)? 15-30 feet. Are you putting your batteries out here too? If not: you may find that you absolutely need to run at a higher voltage if you want any sort of efficiency, or you will have to buy a large amount of 4/0 welding cable for your battery pack leads. I'd put a car muffler on the exhaust and insulate the shed that you put it in, to make it as quiet as possible. - Is there any exhaust technology yet out that can treat NOx/PCH content? I heard a catalytic converter was in development for this (very expensive last I heard). You can run a catalytic converter on a diesel if it is running biodiesel or no-sulfur diesel (not available in the US) Good luck, please keep us informed of what you do, and please ask any questions you have. A lot of people here have done things like this before and may have a lot of advice for your group. -- Martin K http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
I just found this after several weeks of election related decline. I am in NorCal, USA with an Elliot Systems genset ready to green our local neighborhood. It is a 19Kw/21Kw peak set for 3 households: 2 neighbors and ourselves. We intend to use B100 for engine longevity, but are considering WVO. The reason we considered this is we cannot utilize the more efficient solar PV systems and rebates. We are committed to getting out of our oil/dirty power dependency. Given our situation on a hill with northern exposure, solar, hydro and wind are not an option. Therefore, it seems liquid sun is our best alternative. We are trying to get grid tied using a solar system, since our local utility only recognizes solar, methane, wind, and hydro for net metering purposes and rebates. We are strategically setting up our genset as a backup system. This complicates matters, since instead of a direct intertie, we must employ batteries to support the generator's position. The minimum (inefficient given our solar exposure) solar setup is the basis for the intertie, but the genset, when run, will charge the same batteries as the solar, and I believe we can use the same inverter. There is an automatic disconnect to prevent loads from backcharging the powerlines when the utility is down. The batteries allow us to run the genset for several hours every other day, charging the batteries, then working off those until the next cycle. There are inherent inefficiencies: power loss in conversion from 120v to 12v batteries, then back again. heat can be recycled in our hot water heater and appleseed reactor. We would prefer not to use the batteries because of the inefficiencies, and led disposal issues, although led is recycled these days. Because of our local conditions, this is the only green option. The relative efficiency is still greater than anything our local utility is providing. A couple of unresolved questions: - What distance should the genset be from our house for ventilation safety (regardless of prevailing winds)? - Is there any exhaust technology yet out that can treat NOx/PCH content? I heard a catalytic converter was in development for this (very expensive last I heard). Happy Holidays! ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Mel: It would not be worth Robs effort to run his genset only 3-4 hours per day. You're right he would only offset during those few hours under a net metering system. As for your dilema with your farm equipment running 24/7/365, here's the way I handled this problem on my Fathers fish farm with all of his circ and aeration pumps. I installed an 8KW genset and am supplying the power for most of his loads. I installed an automatic transfer switch but installed it with reversed logic so that the loads go to the grid during oil changes and any other down time with my genset. I also make use of the waste heat from the genset to heat the water for the fingerling fish so that they continue to feed and grow right through the winter. I reduced his monthly electric bill from $800 down to $125. Because of the success of this experiment I am now constructing a larger cogen system to be able to handle all of the fish farm loads as well as the house loads. I've been running the 8KW China Diesel genset since February. I now have logged 4,400 hours with minimal mechanical problems. The whole system is run on wvo. Good luck Gene Chaffin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mel Riser Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset You are assuming you will run the meter backwards. They dont allow mass inputs of power usually. But you could offset you bill during that 2.5 hours it's running. I'm in the same boat and I have a server farm at my house that uses about 2000 watts an hour 24/7/365 and I am trying to figure out how to cut energy costs, cooling, servers etc. mel -Original Message- From: Robert Del Bueno [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Dear Gene: Congratulations for your success and please keep us posted on your further experiments and developments. In exchange we will throw in our two cents from time to time. With warmest regards, Luis R. Calzadilla Fundacion Sugar Cane Research Organization Cali, colombia [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Steve, sorry not to respond earlier. I am revealing my lack of knowledge of biofuels,and in this case WVO, and now take your point that WVO actually cleans away such deposits, so this is one aspect of KD420 which would have little, or no appeal to biofuelers. I was speaking in 'general' terms of 'doubling' engine life. I note that you say that 'those deposits do not reduce engine life by 50%'. I suspect that how such deposits influence engine life might well be related to how the engine is used and could well be worse in the UK where some vehicles might well be used for short distance, low speed, cold mileage. But none theless let us accept that I over-generalised. With standard fuels in the UK our engines do get carbon deposits over time which must accelerate engine wear, especially if they build up at the edge of the piston rings and end up scoring the cylinder walls. KD 420 removes this, in addition to varnishes and gums. It can also be used @ 1:200 in the engine oil to perform a similar purpose in the lower engine. Over time, especially if used with high quality modern oils, this must considerably extend engine life, although I grossly 'over generalise' by stating 'doubling'. In truth I do not know by how long, and it would vary for each engine application one would imagine. A taxi driver here tried it on an engine which had already achieved nearly 250k miles. He accepted that the engine was 'knackered'. It is likely that it was carbon deposits on the piston rings that was helping with some form of compression. The engine was using a fair amount of oil. The driver agreed that after several weeks he had measured fuel savings of approx 8%, but that his oil consumption had soared, and the increased oil costs offset the fuel savings. I believe that compression was partly achieved by carbon accumulations on the rings and when this carbon was cleaned away, compression was reduced, and there were clearer 'gaps' between the rings and the cylinder walls to reduce compression and increase loss of oil. it just gets me wondering how many miles such a taxi might achieve if they used KD from new in comjunction with special lubricants. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 October 2004 19:20 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Because I'm already removing such deposits by using a oxygenated solvent for fuel. See the subject line, WVO, not diesel. Eliminating such items still won't double engine life, as those deposits do not reduce engine life by 50% .. = = = Original message = = = Steve, why not ? Especially if it also reduces engine wear by preventing the formation of varnish, gum,soot and carbon deposits? Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Steve Spence Sent: 08 October 2004 16:41 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I suspect that expecting a fuel additive to double the life of an engine is not such a good idea. Steve Spence IT Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] (315) 393-3573 x.242 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Johnston, Don Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 6:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I suspect and believe that one could double that to 40,000 hours with kd420, 0R ep4 combustion enhancing technology. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kirk McLoren Sent: 08 October 2004 02:26 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
from svo, or wvo? Steve Spence http://www.green-trust.org - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 9:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Ok. Let's leave the same proposition out there. Creating electricity from svo is a monumental waste of energy. On Oct 8, 2004, at 2:54 PM, Robert Del Bueno wrote: I never intended the use of biodiesel. The idea is for reclaimed waste vegetable oils. I am curious on if anyone has given thought to the emissions per kWh of such a setup versus coal fired plant (...who in our area are successful in avoiding EPA New Source Review regulations, and continue to spew). Also considering the addition of a pre-combustion fuel catalyst, and additional after treament (because of dedicated veg use). At 01:28 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote: Lyle, Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? I don't know about that. Do you think that an approximate 65% loss in energy from fuel source to your duplex outlet is very efficient? That's the loss achieved by the grid that provides electrical service to you. You may be right about a fairly needless waste of biodiesel, however. Especially when gensets operate under constant load and for the most part are capable of running on WVO/SVO. The inclusion of more energy inputs by making biodiesel might be unnecessary in many instances. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Gang, I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
would be a better choice, 65% energy loss from end to end? To deliver electrons to Rob's guitar? That strikes me as a bargain compared to creating biodiesel and combusting it for electrons. I just figured the energy loss from end to end would be much worse with a little generator compared to the grid. On Oct 8, 2004, at 1:28 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Lyle, Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? I don't know about that. Do you think that an approximate 65% loss in energy from fuel source to your duplex outlet is very efficient? That's the loss achieved by the grid that provides electrical service to you. You may be right about a fairly needless waste of biodiesel, however. Especially when gensets operate under constant load and for the most part are capable of running on WVO/SVO. The inclusion of more energy inputs by making biodiesel might be unnecessary in many instances. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Gang, I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
from svo is a monumental waste of energy. On Oct 8, 2004, at 2:54 PM, Robert Del Bueno wrote: I never intended the use of biodiesel. The idea is for reclaimed waste vegetable oils. I am curious on if anyone has given thought to the emissions per kWh of such a setup versus coal fired plant (...who in our area are successful in avoiding EPA New Source Review regulations, and continue to spew). Also considering the addition of a pre-combustion fuel catalyst, and additional after treament (because of dedicated veg use). At 01:28 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote: Lyle, Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? I don't know about that. Do you think that an approximate 65% loss in energy from fuel source to your duplex outlet is very efficient? That's the loss achieved by the grid that provides electrical service to you. You may be right about a fairly needless waste of biodiesel, however. Especially when gensets operate under constant load and for the most part are capable of running on WVO/SVO. The inclusion of more energy inputs by making biodiesel might be unnecessary in many instances. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Gang, I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
And this is based on what theory? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 19:17 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Ok. Let's leave the same proposition out there. Creating electricity from svo is a monumental waste of energy. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Based on what? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 19:12 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset You are right. Efficient might be the wrong word. Perhaps bargain would be a better choice, 65% energy loss from end to end? To deliver electrons to Rob's guitar? That strikes me as a bargain compared to creating biodiesel and combusting it for electrons. I just figured the energy loss from end to end would be much worse with a little generator compared to the grid. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Start Here: Vegetable oil has the potential to be 100% carbon neutral and is probably already ~90% carbon neutral despite fossil fuels used in its production, refining and transportation. Fossil fuel is 100% carbon negative right out of the chute and if you include mining, refining and transportation the negative numbers escalate well beyond that. No or almost no SOx, no heavy metals and a few dozen other benefits in comparison. If you want to labor on the math go ahead. But you're banging your head against the wall if you think that you'll come up with any disbenefit that comes anywhere close to the disbenefits of fossil fuels. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I never intended the use of biodiesel. The idea is for reclaimed waste vegetable oils. I am curious on if anyone has given thought to the emissions per kWh of such a setup versus coal fired plant (...who in our area are successful in avoiding EPA New Source Review regulations, and continue to spew). Also considering the addition of a pre-combustion fuel catalyst, and additional after treament (because of dedicated veg use). At 01:28 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote: Lyle, Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? I don't know about that. Do you think that an approximate 65% loss in energy from fuel source to your duplex outlet is very efficient? That's the loss achieved by the grid that provides electrical service to you. You may be right about a fairly needless waste of biodiesel, however. Especially when gensets operate under constant load and for the most part are capable of running on WVO/SVO. The inclusion of more energy inputs by making biodiesel might be unnecessary in many instances. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Gang, I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
What point are you trying to convey when you say this Lyle? That strikes me as a bargain compared to creating biodiesel and combusting it for electrons. You don't even have the numbers relative to production efficiencies for biodiesel to electricity and you draw such a conclusion? Much less construction/manufacturing cradle-to-grave energy inputs for both options (inclusive of mining, smelting, kilns, transport, labor transportation, etc, etc, etc.) Maybe if you worked both equations you could come up with a definitive opinion. But to do so based upon a feeling? That doesn't fly. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 8:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset You are right. Efficient might be the wrong word. Perhaps bargain would be a better choice, 65% energy loss from end to end? To deliver electrons to Rob's guitar? That strikes me as a bargain compared to creating biodiesel and combusting it for electrons. I just figured the energy loss from end to end would be much worse with a little generator compared to the grid. On Oct 8, 2004, at 1:28 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Lyle, Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? I don't know about that. Do you think that an approximate 65% loss in energy from fuel source to your duplex outlet is very efficient? That's the loss achieved by the grid that provides electrical service to you. You may be right about a fairly needless waste of biodiesel, however. Especially when gensets operate under constant load and for the most part are capable of running on WVO/SVO. The inclusion of more energy inputs by making biodiesel might be unnecessary in many instances. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Gang, I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Where in the world do you come up with this conclusion Lyle? Creating electricity from svo is a monumental waste of energy. - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Ok. Let's leave the same proposition out there. Creating electricity from svo is a monumental waste of energy. On Oct 8, 2004, at 2:54 PM, Robert Del Bueno wrote: I never intended the use of biodiesel. The idea is for reclaimed waste vegetable oils. I am curious on if anyone has given thought to the emissions per kWh of such a setup versus coal fired plant (...who in our area are successful in avoiding EPA New Source Review regulations, and continue to spew). Also considering the addition of a pre-combustion fuel catalyst, and additional after treament (because of dedicated veg use). At 01:28 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote: Lyle, Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? I don't know about that. Do you think that an approximate 65% loss in energy from fuel source to your duplex outlet is very efficient? That's the loss achieved by the grid that provides electrical service to you. You may be right about a fairly needless waste of biodiesel, however. Especially when gensets operate under constant load and for the most part are capable of running on WVO/SVO. The inclusion of more energy inputs by making biodiesel might be unnecessary in many instances. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Gang, I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
The impossibility to use it worldwide? if we plant for it , there's no more space for food... From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:29:29 -0500 Start Here: Vegetable oil has the potential to be 100% carbon neutral and is probably already ~90% carbon neutral despite fossil fuels used in its production, refining and transportation. Fossil fuel is 100% carbon negative right out of the chute and if you include mining, refining and transportation the negative numbers escalate well beyond that. No or almost no SOx, no heavy metals and a few dozen other benefits in comparison. If you want to labor on the math go ahead. But you're banging your head against the wall if you think that you'll come up with any disbenefit that comes anywhere close to the disbenefits of fossil fuels. _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Lyle Estill wrote: Ok. Let's leave the same proposition out there. Creating electricity from svo is a monumental waste of energy. If it takes three train cars of coal to make one train car of electricity how many train cars are necessary using wind turbines? Is there any added benefit to capturing the heat? Environmentally, what is more friendly? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
I'll plead ignorance right off the bat. But is fossil fuel truely carbon negative? The plants and animals they are derived from were living and breathing albeit a few million years ago. It's just been held in escrow for a while :) It's just the human virus that's releasing it all in a short 100 years. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Appal Energy Sent: October 9, 2004 12:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Start Here: Vegetable oil has the potential to be 100% carbon neutral and is probably already ~90% carbon neutral despite fossil fuels used in its production, refining and transportation. Fossil fuel is 100% carbon negative right out of the chute and if you include mining, refining and transportation the negative numbers escalate well beyond that. No or almost no SOx, no heavy metals and a few dozen other benefits in comparison. If you want to labor on the math go ahead. But you're banging your head against the wall if you think that you'll come up with any disbenefit that comes anywhere close to the disbenefits of fossil fuels. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I never intended the use of biodiesel. The idea is for reclaimed waste vegetable oils. I am curious on if anyone has given thought to the emissions per kWh of such a setup versus coal fired plant (...who in our area are successful in avoiding EPA New Source Review regulations, and continue to spew). Also considering the addition of a pre-combustion fuel catalyst, and additional after treament (because of dedicated veg use). At 01:28 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote: Lyle, Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? I don't know about that. Do you think that an approximate 65% loss in energy from fuel source to your duplex outlet is very efficient? That's the loss achieved by the grid that provides electrical service to you. You may be right about a fairly needless waste of biodiesel, however. Especially when gensets operate under constant load and for the most part are capable of running on WVO/SVO. The inclusion of more energy inputs by making biodiesel might be unnecessary in many instances. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Gang, I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
here's one . The impossibility to use it worldwide? if we plant for it , there's no more space for food... Nonsense - what a tired old non-argument that is. If you ask the wrong question you get the wrong answer. How much biofuels will it take... How much land will it take... For what? To substitute biofuels/renewables for the amount of fossil fuels used now? That's not an option - continuing the current rate/growth of energy use (ie energy waste) isn't an option either. A rational and sustainable energy future means great reductions in energy use, great improvements in energy efficiency, and, most important, decentralisation of energy supply to the local level, where all the ready-for-use alternatives can be used in combination as best fits the circumstances. Sustainable farms can produce enough energy as a by-product to provide their own energy needs and more, with the dedicated use of no land at all. Jeff Welter was discussing that yesterday, or aspects of it. It's often been discussed here. http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUELS-BIZ/1395/ How much fuel can we grow? http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUELS-BIZ/1801/ Re: Biofuels hold key to future of British farming ... how much fossil-energy, in fuel, fertilizers and pesticides, would be required to produce enough food to feed 900 million people? Answer: none. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html Biofuels - Food or Fuel? On a related issue, or rather non-issue, see Is ethanol energy-efficient? http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Keith From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:29:29 -0500 Start Here: Vegetable oil has the potential to be 100% carbon neutral and is probably already ~90% carbon neutral despite fossil fuels used in its production, refining and transportation. Fossil fuel is 100% carbon negative right out of the chute and if you include mining, refining and transportation the negative numbers escalate well beyond that. No or almost no SOx, no heavy metals and a few dozen other benefits in comparison. If you want to labor on the math go ahead. But you're banging your head against the wall if you think that you'll come up with any disbenefit that comes anywhere close to the disbenefits of fossil fuels. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
- Original Message - From: frag lag [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 02:42 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset here's one . The impossibility to use it worldwide? if we plant for it , there's no more space for food... Very Incorrect.Although that is what the anti BioDiesel groups and so called experts would have you believe. 1)Seed that is pressed for oil can still be used as stock and/or human food, depending on the seed. For example: Corn oil can be extracted for BD use, the meal can then be used to prepared to make alcohol, and the spent mash ( which at this point is high in protein ), can be used as food. Soybeans are actualy made more palatable for stock by the extraction of most of the oil. Cotton seed ( to my knowledge ) has no real use except as an oil source, and the left over meal is a source of organic nitrogen for the ground, an Avocado, once the edible part is eaten, the seed contains more than 50% of all the oil in the fruit. 2)Many plants ( that have usable oil ) will grow were, normal food items for consumption ( humans or stock ) will not - Chinese Tallow tree will grow in arid areas. In allot of cases the oil is has already been used, for deep frying, at your local fast food, and can still be made into BD, this takes nothing away from food production at all, and as some have already said, can be used after filtering with slightly modified diesel engines. Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
- Original Message - From: John Mullan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 04:56 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I'll plead ignorance right off the bat. But is fossil fuel truely carbon negative? The plants and animals they are derived from were living and breathing albeit a few million years ago. It's just been held in escrow for a while :) It's just the human virus that's releasing it all in a short 100 years. Think of how much energy it takes to transform 1 barrel of crude oil into it's end products. I have heard that by the time that just transporting 1 barrel of crude oil to the refinery, cost is at least 1 1/2 barrels of oil, then you have to heat it up ( and that takes more oil ) to refine it, then transport ( again more oil ) the products to processing plants, and/or fuel stations ( and that takes more fuel ).Allot of oil is used just making the oil usable to the final consumer, because it is not being used to do anything other than to transport oil and oil products. On the other hand using WVO, to make BioDiesel ( or as is ), your using a product that have already seen the normal the end of it's normal usage, and putting it to work. The amount of energy used to make it available for use is minimal, because it has already been transported to the general vicinity were it is going to be used. Many time it can be had for next to nothing, other than the work to recover it from the fryer vats.The carbon in the ground in sequestered, and when it is used it puts it into the air, where it is unhealthy.In the ground it contains various elements that are bound up, that become toxic ( or otherwise unhealthy to one degree or another ) when released into the air.To say that it is in escrow is wrong, because by binding the elements up out of reach in the ground were they are less 'toxic' then it is actualy doing us a favor by being ( staying ) in the ground. I will give you this.There was a time when crude petroleum and it's products was necessary to get mankind started down the road of technology, but, now we are technologically at point that they are becoming more problematic than a necessity. Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
This is absolutely false. here's one . The impossibility to use it worldwide? if we plant for it , there's no more space for food... To fill in the blanks, you're saying that if we grow biomass for fuel then the resulting consequence is that we'll starve. Feedlot cattle consume 16#s of grain and soybeans for every one pound of meat. http://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/invest/meat.html If correlating that 16 pounds to only soybeans, that's approximately 3.3 acres if the yield is 40 bushels of soybeans per acre, or approximately 6,960 pounds of feedmeal and approximately 40 gallons of oil. How many people could be fed off 3.3 acres or with 6,960 pounds of soy flour in comparison to the approximate 550 pounds of edible beef that will come off that feedlot animal? Couple that with the number of pounds of grass it takes to get them to a feedlot for fattening. A grassfed calf consumes 8,210 pounds of grass to increase its weight from 500 to 1,000 pounds. It takes 15,750 pounds of grass to raise that calf to 500 pounds and maintain its 1,200-pound mother for 12 months. http://texasgrassfedbeef.com/improving_the_margin.htm With a cutout percentage of 55%, that equates to 44 pounds of grass for every one pound of edible grass-fed beef. (That number may be slightly skewed due to the fact that the mother will eventually be slaughtered. But whether or not she becomes human food rather than animal feed is debateable.) No one is going to say that the exchange ratio for grass to grain is 1:1. But a great deal of biomass/food can be grown for human consumption on the same land. What can also be said is that if the global population altered its diet considerably to become an enormously less meat centered, and then coupled that reaccessed biomass/land with savings achieved from doubled, tripled or even quadrupled liquid fuel economy (easy enough to do considering the ratio of 10-15 mpg SUVs to 50+ mpg automobiles), there would be none of the starvation that you declare to be inevitable by switching to biomass. And none of the above begins to touch the enormous amount of waste that goes into pork, chicken, egg and milk production. You're also not considering the burden that could be taken off the liquid fuel sector by widely implementing wind and solar and supplanting liquid fuels with renewably derived electricity. All said? Your categorical statement is grossly in error and only approaches any degree of correctness if humans continue their wasteful mindsets and grossly stretched wastelines. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: frag lag [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 3:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset here's one . The impossibility to use it worldwide? if we plant for it , there's no more space for food... From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:29:29 -0500 Start Here: Vegetable oil has the potential to be 100% carbon neutral and is probably already ~90% carbon neutral despite fossil fuels used in its production, refining and transportation. Fossil fuel is 100% carbon negative right out of the chute and if you include mining, refining and transportation the negative numbers escalate well beyond that. No or almost no SOx, no heavy metals and a few dozen other benefits in comparison. If you want to labor on the math go ahead. But you're banging your head against the wall if you think that you'll come up with any disbenefit that comes anywhere close to the disbenefits of fossil fuels. _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Sure. Fossil fuels are carbon neutral. But only until they're combusted. It's the human demand and the geologic time required to resequester the emissons that wipes out their neutrality. Large difference between millions of years for sequestration and one year for biofuels. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Mullan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 5:56 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I'll plead ignorance right off the bat. But is fossil fuel truely carbon negative? The plants and animals they are derived from were living and breathing albeit a few million years ago. It's just been held in escrow for a while :) It's just the human virus that's releasing it all in a short 100 years. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Appal Energy Sent: October 9, 2004 12:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Start Here: Vegetable oil has the potential to be 100% carbon neutral and is probably already ~90% carbon neutral despite fossil fuels used in its production, refining and transportation. Fossil fuel is 100% carbon negative right out of the chute and if you include mining, refining and transportation the negative numbers escalate well beyond that. No or almost no SOx, no heavy metals and a few dozen other benefits in comparison. If you want to labor on the math go ahead. But you're banging your head against the wall if you think that you'll come up with any disbenefit that comes anywhere close to the disbenefits of fossil fuels. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I never intended the use of biodiesel. The idea is for reclaimed waste vegetable oils. I am curious on if anyone has given thought to the emissions per kWh of such a setup versus coal fired plant (...who in our area are successful in avoiding EPA New Source Review regulations, and continue to spew). Also considering the addition of a pre-combustion fuel catalyst, and additional after treament (because of dedicated veg use). At 01:28 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote: Lyle, Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? I don't know about that. Do you think that an approximate 65% loss in energy from fuel source to your duplex outlet is very efficient? That's the loss achieved by the grid that provides electrical service to you. You may be right about a fairly needless waste of biodiesel, however. Especially when gensets operate under constant load and for the most part are capable of running on WVO/SVO. The inclusion of more energy inputs by making biodiesel might be unnecessary in many instances. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Gang, I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 10:50:43 -0500 This is absolutely false. here's one . The impossibility to use it worldwide? if we plant for it , there's no more space for food... To fill in the blanks, you're saying that if we grow biomass for fuel then the resulting consequence is that we'll starve. Feedlot cattle consume 16#s of grain and soybeans for every one pound of meat. http://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/invest/meat.html If correlating that 16 pounds to only soybeans, that's approximately 3.3 acres if the yield is 40 bushels of soybeans per acre, or approximately 6,960 pounds of feedmeal and approximately 40 gallons of oil. How many people could be fed off 3.3 acres or with 6,960 pounds of soy flour in comparison to the approximate 550 pounds of edible beef that will come off that feedlot animal? Couple that with the number of pounds of grass it takes to get them to a feedlot for fattening. A grassfed calf consumes 8,210 pounds of grass to increase its weight from 500 to 1,000 pounds. It takes 15,750 pounds of grass to raise that calf to 500 pounds and maintain its 1,200-pound mother for 12 months. http://texasgrassfedbeef.com/improving_the_margin.htm With a cutout percentage of 55%, that equates to 44 pounds of grass for every one pound of edible grass-fed beef. (That number may be slightly skewed due to the fact that the mother will eventually be slaughtered. But whether or not she becomes human food rather than animal feed is debateable.) No one is going to say that the exchange ratio for grass to grain is 1:1. But a great deal of biomass/food can be grown for human consumption on the same land. What can also be said is that if the global population altered its diet considerably to become an enormously less meat centered, and then coupled that reaccessed biomass/land with savings achieved from doubled, tripled or even quadrupled liquid fuel economy (easy enough to do considering the ratio of 10-15 mpg SUVs to 50+ mpg automobiles), there would be none of the starvation that you declare to be inevitable by switching to biomass. And none of the above begins to touch the enormous amount of waste that goes into pork, chicken, egg and milk production. You're also not considering the burden that could be taken off the liquid fuel sector by widely implementing wind and solar and supplanting liquid fuels with renewably derived electricity. All said? Your categorical statement is grossly in error and only approaches any degree of correctness if humans continue their wasteful mindsets and grossly stretched wastelines. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: frag lag [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 3:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset here's one . The impossibility to use it worldwide? if we plant for it , there's no more space for food... From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:29:29 -0500 Start Here: Vegetable oil has the potential to be 100% carbon neutral and is probably already ~90% carbon neutral despite fossil fuels used in its production, refining and transportation. Fossil fuel is 100% carbon negative right out of the chute and if you include mining, refining and transportation the negative numbers escalate well beyond that. No or almost no SOx, no heavy metals and a few dozen other benefits in comparison. If you want to labor on the math go ahead. But you're banging your head against the wall if you think that you'll come up with any disbenefit that comes anywhere close to the disbenefits of fossil fuels. _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ _ Talk with your online friends with MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
the circumstances. Sustainable farms can produce enough energy as a by-product to provide their own energy needs and more, with the dedicated use of no land at all. Jeff Welter was discussing that yesterday, or aspects of it. It's often been discussed here. http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUELS-BIZ/1395/ How much fuel can we grow? http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUELS-BIZ/1801/ Re: Biofuels hold key to future of British farming ... how much fossil-energy, in fuel, fertilizers and pesticides, would be required to produce enough food to feed 900 million people? Answer: none. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html Biofuels - Food or Fuel? On a related issue, or rather non-issue, see Is ethanol energy-efficient? http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Keith From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:29:29 -0500 Start Here: Vegetable oil has the potential to be 100% carbon neutral and is probably already ~90% carbon neutral despite fossil fuels used in its production, refining and transportation. Fossil fuel is 100% carbon negative right out of the chute and if you include mining, refining and transportation the negative numbers escalate well beyond that. No or almost no SOx, no heavy metals and a few dozen other benefits in comparison. If you want to labor on the math go ahead. But you're banging your head against the wall if you think that you'll come up with any disbenefit that comes anywhere close to the disbenefits of fossil fuels. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Then we have centralized power plants utilizing part of the generated power to run pumps and fans to cool the bottom end of the cycle instead of the heat being available as process heat, hot water or space heat. Then we have right of ways and condemnation of private property to route transmission lines which leak energy and utilize steel and aluminum. Another lovely property they have is to conduct lightning into your house and kill appliances. I've lost several. Then there is rf noise and how it ruins shortwave reception. The biological effects of hv are still under debate. Need I go on? Distributed generation is more reliable but it breaks the hold a few have on energy. Energy, like food and banking are monopolies and the owners won't give them up easily. Kirk Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: John Mullan To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 04:56 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I'll plead ignorance right off the bat. But is fossil fuel truely carbon negative? The plants and animals they are derived from were living and breathing albeit a few million years ago. It's just been held in escrow for a while :) It's just the human virus that's releasing it all in a short 100 years. Think of how much energy it takes to transform 1 barrel of crude oil into it's end products. I have heard that by the time that just transporting 1 barrel of crude oil to the refinery, cost is at least 1 1/2 barrels of oil, then you have to heat it up ( and that takes more oil ) to refine it, then transport ( again more oil ) the products to processing plants, and/or fuel stations ( and that takes more fuel ). Allot of oil is used just making the oil usable to the final consumer, because it is not being used to do anything other than to transport oil and oil products. On the other hand using WVO, to make BioDiesel ( or as is ), your using a product that have already seen the normal the end of it's normal usage, and putting it to work. The amount of energy used to make it available for use is minimal, because it has already been transported to the general vicinity were it is going to be used. Many time it can be had for next to nothing, other than the work to recover it from the fryer vats. The carbon in the ground in sequestered, and when it is used it puts it into the air, where it is unhealthy. In the ground it contains various elements that are bound up, that become toxic ( or otherwise unhealthy to one degree or another ) when released into the air. To say that it is in escrow is wrong, because by binding the elements up out of reach in the ground were they are less 'toxic' then it is actualy doing us a favor by being ( staying ) in the ground. I will give you this. There was a time when crude petroleum and it's products was necessary to get mankind started down the road of technology, but, now we are technologically at point that they are becoming more problematic than a necessity. Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
My Detroit Diesel is rated for 40k hours between rebuilds. Steve Spence http://www.green-trust.org - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
between overhauls they are also under extreme load most of that time, whereas the gen is not pulling near as hard which therefore lends itself to less wear and tear and therefore less need for more frequent rebuilds. One can even go so far as to say that it will do much better than that as the specs are based upon regular fuels and oils and by using BD instead of dino there is less wear still so it is a good bet that it will go better than the industry specs of 40K. Just my nickel's worth Luc - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset My Detroit Diesel is rated for 40k hours between rebuilds. Steve Spence http://www.green-trust.org - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Lyle Estill V.P. Stuff Piedmont Biofuels www.biofuels.coop 919-545-2551 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Lyle, You are wrong (forget full explanation), in partial because, http://energysavingnow.com/plugin/hvacpump.shtml Because you are looking on narrow and partial efficiency numbers with your statement. Hakan At 04:34 AM 10/8/2004, you wrote: Gang, I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
I suspect and believe that one could double that to 40,000 hours with kd420, 0R ep4 combustion enhancing technology. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kirk McLoren Sent: 08 October 2004 02:26 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
I suspect that expecting a fuel additive to double the life of an engine is not such a good idea. Steve Spence IT Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] (315) 393-3573 x.242 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Johnston, Don Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 6:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I suspect and believe that one could double that to 40,000 hours with kd420, 0R ep4 combustion enhancing technology. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kirk McLoren Sent: 08 October 2004 02:26 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Steve, why not ? Especially if it also reduces engine wear by preventing the formation of varnish, gum,soot and carbon deposits? Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Steve Spence Sent: 08 October 2004 16:41 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I suspect that expecting a fuel additive to double the life of an engine is not such a good idea. Steve Spence IT Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] (315) 393-3573 x.242 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Johnston, Don Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 6:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I suspect and believe that one could double that to 40,000 hours with kd420, 0R ep4 combustion enhancing technology. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kirk McLoren Sent: 08 October 2004 02:26 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Lyle, Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? I don't know about that. Do you think that an approximate 65% loss in energy from fuel source to your duplex outlet is very efficient? That's the loss achieved by the grid that provides electrical service to you. You may be right about a fairly needless waste of biodiesel, however. Especially when gensets operate under constant load and for the most part are capable of running on WVO/SVO. The inclusion of more energy inputs by making biodiesel might be unnecessary in many instances. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Gang, I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL
RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Because I'm already removing such deposits by using a oxygenated solvent for fuel. See the subject line, WVO, not diesel. Eliminating such items still won't double engine life, as those deposits do not reduce engine life by 50% .. = = = Original message = = = Steve, why not ? Especially if it also reduces engine wear by preventing the formation of varnish, gum,soot and carbon deposits? Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Steve Spence Sent: 08 October 2004 16:41 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I suspect that expecting a fuel additive to double the life of an engine is not such a good idea. Steve Spence IT Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] (315) 393-3573 x.242 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Johnston, Don Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 6:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset I suspect and believe that one could double that to 40,000 hours with kd420, 0R ep4 combustion enhancing technology. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kirk McLoren Sent: 08 October 2004 02:26 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ~~ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
The idea is for reclaimed waste vegetable oils. I am curious on if anyone has given thought to the emissions per kWh of such a setup versus coal fired plant (...who in our area are successful in avoiding EPA New Source Review regulations, and continue to spew). Also considering the addition of a pre-combustion fuel catalyst, and additional after treament (because of dedicated veg use). At 01:28 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote: Lyle, Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? I don't know about that. Do you think that an approximate 65% loss in energy from fuel source to your duplex outlet is very efficient? That's the loss achieved by the grid that provides electrical service to you. You may be right about a fairly needless waste of biodiesel, however. Especially when gensets operate under constant load and for the most part are capable of running on WVO/SVO. The inclusion of more energy inputs by making biodiesel might be unnecessary in many instances. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Gang, I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
You should consider biodiesel for startup and shutdown, instead of diesel. Also considering the addition of a pre-combustion fuel catalyst, and additional after treament (because of dedicated veg use). unnecessary with bio-d startup/shutdown. See the VeggieGen project, as it's exactly what you are considering, without the back to grid option. www.green-trust.org = = = Original message = = = I never intended the use of biodiesel. The idea is for reclaimed waste vegetable oils. I am curious on if anyone has given thought to the emissions per kWh of such a setup versus coal fired plant (...who in our area are successful in avoiding EPA New Source Review regulations, and continue to spew). Also considering the addition of a pre-combustion fuel catalyst, and additional after treament (because of dedicated veg use). At 01:28 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote: Lyle, Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? I don't know about that. Do you think that an approximate 65% loss in energy from fuel source to your duplex outlet is very efficient? That's the loss achieved by the grid that provides electrical service to you. You may be right about a fairly needless waste of biodiesel, however. Especially when gensets operate under constant load and for the most part are capable of running on WVO/SVO. The inclusion of more energy inputs by making biodiesel might be unnecessary in many instances. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset Gang, I've enjoyed this thread for awhile now, and have finally found the courage to post. Is it not true that the grid is so much more efficient than Rob's generator that making electricity from biodiesel is a waste of perfectly good fuel? From a conservation standpoint (strictly BTUs--forget geopolitical arguments for a moment), he is better off running his studio on grid. On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Appal Energy wrote: Kirk, Did that fellow say that every China diesel owner achieved in excess of 10,000 hours? Or was he only pointing to the exceptions? It would also be a rather rare truck that got one million miles before it had to have the top end and rings done. 300-500,000 is a more real breaking point there. You're also speaking of relatively small horsepower and not a great deal of engine mass. Don't think you can compare the odd duck of a truck to the whole roost. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset That fellow Skip who wrote More Power to You said he knew China diesel owners that had in excess of 10,000 hours without a rebuild. We know trucks go 100 miles and at an avg of 50mph that is 20.000 hours Kirk Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey
[Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Robert, What is the flaw I am missing? You don't use all 2,000 kWh in 2-3 hour blocks. To make your idea work without a storage system you would have to conduct all your energy consuming activities within that narrow time window. You'd probably be best served by installing a battery bank and converter and cycle your gennie as required. You've also got to depreciate your gennie. Check the manufacturer's estimated life cycle. Usually they're only 2-3 thousand hours before a rebuild is necessary, meaning that you'll be buying a new gennie or paying the rebuild costs every second or third year. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Robert: Good idea you have and not missing too much but for smaller applications usually the cost of standby charges and the electrical switchgear cost make for an expensive proposition with unanticipated costs. I know this because of my previous fomer career in energy for both small and large co-generation applications. But it doesn't hurt to try! From a purely investment decision: My recommendation is you need to identify your usage during on-peak hours, partial-peak, and off-peak utility periods and find both the real tariff rate for each period and the average. The key is the peak rate. Therefore, let's say your average is 15 cents per kwh. 2,000 kWh/month X .15 $/kwh (avg?)= $300 per mo bill For a retail site the net-metering also means a different set of electrical switchgear at your metering box along with proper circuit protection and circuit breakers. For commercial applications by a registered electric contractor I would budget at minimum $6,000 for this work. You need to consider the cost of Diesel fuel and also you will need the Permits necessary to operate the generator. You will also need to consider the hours of operation and downtime for maintenence. Also, if you have a recording studio, the power generator will most likely generate signal noise which may impact the fidelity of your recording equipment and you will need to consider the Power Quality aspects of your decision. You need to conduct a Return on Investement calculation and also consider the amortization of your equipment if done for a business, along with the environmental costs of using traditional diesel. What impact will your decision have on your local environment? How about noise pollution? Do you need to inform you neighbors? How does your investment affect your cost of capital and revenue for your business? When all that is done you can calculate simple payback calculation by using Cost of Project divided by Savings in One Year. Regards, P. Wolfe --- Robert Del Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
Sounds good to me. Check out micro cogeneration at Yahoo groups Kirk Robert Del Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
You are assuming you will run the meter backwards. They dont allow mass inputs of power usually. But you could offset you bill during that 2.5 hours it's running. I'm in the same boat and I have a server farm at my house that uses about 2000 watts an hour 24/7/365 and I am trying to figure out how to cut energy costs, cooling, servers etc. mel -Original Message- From: Robert Del Bueno [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset
At 11:51 AM 10/7/2004, you wrote: You are assuming you will run the meter backwards. They don't allow mass inputs of power usually. But you could offset you bill during that 2.5 hours it's running. I'm in the same boat and I have a server farm at my house that uses about 2000 watts an hour 24/7/365 and I am trying to figure out how to cut energy costs, cooling, servers etc. mel -Original Message- From: Robert Del Bueno [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Back to grid via WVO genset So looking at my power bill for my recording studio business, we use on average about 2000kWH per month. If I were to run a 30kW diesel genset on SVO for 2.5 hours a day, 30 days a month... 75Hx30kW=2250kWH ... I know that net-metering in Georgia does not pay retail rates for intertie power, but hell, even if I had to run for 3-4 hours a day, seems like I could do well. Of course using a water cooled genset, I would also use the hot water for heating applications. I have a steady supply of good SVO. And 30kw diesel genset available very affordable. I know the intertie/net metering equipment costs a fair amount, but will be applicable for future solar pv use as well. What is the flaw I am missing? -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
