Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Also the Hunzas practice yoga, at least they used to. I wonder how they're doing these days as the ways of the western world spread everywhere. The way of life of the Hunzas and other long lived peoples show us a healthier way to live. I don't think we need to abandon technology, but we need to realize its limitations to giving us happier lives. IMO, we have too much dependence on technology with not enough wisdom used in its application. It seems nowadays technology as practised creates as many problems as it solves, thus we're getting nowhere wrt human fulfillment and evolution. Keith has the right idea, an ancient idea--stay close to the land and nature. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Hi Bob Nutrition and Health, by Sir Robert McCarrison -- McCarrison's Cantor Lectures, to the Royal Society of Arts in 1936, Faber and Faber, London, 1953. After joining the Indian Medical Service in 1901 Robert McCarrison spent his early years in the Northern Frontier region investigating the legendary Hunza tribe, mountain people who lived to a vigorous old age and never got sick. He discovered why, and proved it in a series of experiments at the Nutrition Research Laboratories at Coonoor in India. It was the food they ate -- and, just as important, not just what food, but how it was grown. Unless it was grown in fertile soil, it was not health-giving food. Most doctors study disease; McCarrison had the rare opportunity to study health instead, as well as the lack of health among other races in the southern part of India subsisting on a poor diet. His findings put the fledgling science of nutrition on a whole new footing. McCarrison's Cantor Lectures describe his experiments as Director of Nutrition Research in India, the results, and the implications for health and nutrition. With photographs. Full text online at the Small Farms Library. http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/McC/McCToC.html The Wheel of Health by G.T. Wrench, Daniel, 1938 Dr. Wrench's classic exploration of the Hunza, a mountain people renowned for their longevity and vigor. By approaching the problem of disease from the angle of a study of a perfectly healthy people, Wrench shows that health depends on environmental wholeness, of which a whole diet is the vital factor, and that a whole diet means not only the right sorts of foods, but their right cultivation as well. An examination of the agricultural technique of the most successful cultivators of East and West shows what an essential part of the wheel of health -- from man to soil, from soil to plant, from plant to man -- is the farmer's renewal and protection of the soil. Full text online. http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_WoH/WoHToC.html Lots more in the Small Farms Library if you care to look. http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html Small Farms Library - Journey to Forever Try Price, or Cleave - you'll HATE it! LOL! Especially since it's real science. Keith Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Hi Mike, I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the Harvard study would actually be better off. Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic. Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas drink their milk cultured, not straight up. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third world, disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
D. Mindock wrote: Hi Mike, I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful to the body. Can you explain how this happens? So those drinking less of the bad milk in the Harvard study would actually be better off. Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic. Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas drink their milk cultured, not straight up. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third world, disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
D. Mindock wrote: Hi Mike, I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the Harvard study would actually be better off. Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic. http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/10/13/food/0_03_1110_12_06.txt Raw organic milk that sickened California children now OK http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003280686_spinach29m.html Two children have been sickened in another episode of E. coli infection, this time from drinking raw milk from a Whatcom County dairy. A 5-year-old boy from Issaquah was still hospitalized with the illness Thursday, while an 8-year-old girl from Snohomish County was recovering at home, said state health officials and a spokeswoman for a store that sold the milk. http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=Sciencearticle=UPI-1-20061013-01412200-bc-britain-tb.xml Small TB outbreak traced to raw milk Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas drink their milk cultured, not straight up. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third world, disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Actually, I hate milk and am very allergic to it. I like cheese but rarely eat it. In Europe I prefer raw sheep's milk. I read anecdotally that that both raw (grass-fed) milk and beef are much better than cooked. I don't eat much meat at all. I sometimes buy sushi grade tuna and eat it raw to get my mercury allowance ;-) D. Mindock wrote: Hi Mike, I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the Harvard study would actually be better off. Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic. Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas drink their milk cultured, not straight up. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third world, disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
In Montreal this summer I tried steak tartar, as it was on the menu in several resturants. It was served as a little volcano of ground beef, with a raw egg in the cone. Mike Weaver wrote: Actually, I hate milk and am very allergic to it. I like cheese but rarely eat it. In Europe I prefer raw sheep's milk. I read anecdotally that that both raw (grass-fed) milk and beef are much better than cooked. I don't eat much meat at all. I sometimes buy sushi grade tuna and eat it raw to get my mercury allowance ;-) D. Mindock wrote: Hi Mike, I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the Harvard study would actually be better off. Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic. Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas drink their milk cultured, not straight up. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third world, disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
I grew up eating it - with raw egg and onion - I only eat grass-fed beef if any. bob allen wrote: In Montreal this summer I tried steak tartar, as it was on the menu in several resturants. It was served as a little volcano of ground beef, with a raw egg in the cone. Mike Weaver wrote: Actually, I hate milk and am very allergic to it. I like cheese but rarely eat it. In Europe I prefer raw sheep's milk. I read anecdotally that that both raw (grass-fed) milk and beef are much better than cooked. I don't eat much meat at all. I sometimes buy sushi grade tuna and eat it raw to get my mercury allowance ;-) D. Mindock wrote: Hi Mike, I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the Harvard study would actually be better off. Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic. Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas drink their milk cultured, not straight up. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third world, disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 16:20:36 -0500 Keith Addison wrote: The main edifice of conventional allopathic (cure-the-symptom) so-called Western medicine, ie industrialised medicine, is all the hospitals. interesting term allopath, none of which as far as I am aware use the term. It was coined by Hahnemann, the founder of the most ridiculous counter-intuitive form of medicine , homeopathy. But that is another discussion. Occupying very many of those hospital beds are patients suffering from iatrogenic illnesses, that is sickness caused by medical treatment (225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes - JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5). nocosomial infections are not surprising considering sick people are in the hospital. Could more be done to control secondary infections, sure. more space, more equipment, more personnel, and more money. And I doubt don't that there are yeast infections due to over prescribing of antibacterials. But whose fault? At least here in the US many, many folks expect some medicine even if it is called for or not. Or hospital visits could be reduced by diet and lifestyle modifications, but whose responsibility is that? The patient of course. Regardless, if my appendix ruptures then I will take my chances with western medicine and a hospital. I don't disagree with your general position. But I don't see how replacing western medicine with homeopathic nonsense or high colonics a la naturopathy would be the way to solve the problem. Nonetheless a fairly august medical practitioner once got angry with my questions and shouted: Of COURSE we're more healthy now, we've got so many more hospital beds! LOL! At another time, at a meeting of the steering committee of a primary health care group working on development projects in 3rd World countries, I mentioned that there's more to health than just the absence of disease. There was a polite pause, one of the doctors said, Of course there is, and the discussion continued as if I hadn't said anything. The Western doctor who shouted at me didn't know what I was talking about when I told him that. What's the difference? The glaring difference is that there's no market in 3rd World people who earn less than $2 a day, it's just not worth all the spin and corruption. There's no money in health anyway, maintaining disease is much more profitable, whether you're Big Pharma or a GP. Twenty-five years ago after I first started working with organic growing, a young doctor who was working with me got the idea that eating properly grown food might have something to do with it. He was working in a fishing community, quite poor people, and got very enthusiastic about the success he was having with this approach (nothing new - see, eg, The Medical Testament http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#medtest). But later he complained that healthy patients didn't visit the doctor very often. Eventually he moved back to the city and became a surgeon. Every health education council I've talked to has stressed that health maintenance is primarily the patient's responsibility. But the patients are seduced by the quick cure that makes the symptom go away, and who needs more responsibility anyway? That's what doctors are for. Especially in the industrialised countries, millions of people now suffer from systemic candida albicans yeast infections, and not many of them can get effective medical treatment for it. They're quite likely to be referred to a psychiatrist instead because when they report the large variety of symptoms candida produces it's assumed to be psychosomatic. Most of the medical profession is in denial about candida because it's brought on by overuse of antibiotics and steroids. So a lot of people just die, with whatever symptom did it on the death certificate. Again to name just one, a study published in the BMJ a while back reported that back pain was the fastest-growing and one of the biggest medical problems in Britain at the time, and that conventional medicine had a very poor track record in treating it. The authors reported that several alternative therapies achieved much better results. They called for the alternative treatments to be made available via Britain's National Health scheme. That
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Hi Bob Nutrition and Health, by Sir Robert McCarrison -- McCarrison's Cantor Lectures, to the Royal Society of Arts in 1936, Faber and Faber, London, 1953. After joining the Indian Medical Service in 1901 Robert McCarrison spent his early years in the Northern Frontier region investigating the legendary Hunza tribe, mountain people who lived to a vigorous old age and never got sick. He discovered why, and proved it in a series of experiments at the Nutrition Research Laboratories at Coonoor in India. It was the food they ate -- and, just as important, not just what food, but how it was grown. Unless it was grown in fertile soil, it was not health-giving food. Most doctors study disease; McCarrison had the rare opportunity to study health instead, as well as the lack of health among other races in the southern part of India subsisting on a poor diet. His findings put the fledgling science of nutrition on a whole new footing. McCarrison's Cantor Lectures describe his experiments as Director of Nutrition Research in India, the results, and the implications for health and nutrition. With photographs. Full text online at the Small Farms Library. http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/McC/McCToC.html The Wheel of Health by G.T. Wrench, Daniel, 1938 Dr. Wrench's classic exploration of the Hunza, a mountain people renowned for their longevity and vigor. By approaching the problem of disease from the angle of a study of a perfectly healthy people, Wrench shows that health depends on environmental wholeness, of which a whole diet is the vital factor, and that a whole diet means not only the right sorts of foods, but their right cultivation as well. An examination of the agricultural technique of the most successful cultivators of East and West shows what an essential part of the wheel of health -- from man to soil, from soil to plant, from plant to man -- is the farmer's renewal and protection of the soil. Full text online. http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_WoH/WoHToC.html Lots more in the Small Farms Library if you care to look. http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html Small Farms Library - Journey to Forever Try Price, or Cleave - you'll HATE it! LOL! Especially since it's real science. Keith Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third world, disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Mike, Keith, Amen. Ps. We all form opinions based on our experiences. These often lead to folly but just as often they can steer us in a good direction as well. One of the reasons we have so little hard evidence on many of these matters is there are only a few studies on health and nutrition vs. the reams done on sickness. (as Keith mentioned) I must agree that testimonials are worthless when sources are narrow, but when they come from voluntary non commercial separate sources from all over the world,- well - Where there is smoke is there not often Fire? My best to all, Jim - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third world, disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Health care today is industrialized medicine, driven by profit focused on treating the symptom rather preventing the disease. It is up to the individual to apply skepticism to the claims of this industry to protect both health pocketbook. We must take full responsibility for our health if we wish to be truly healthy; we cannot trust government or industry to do it for us. The best way to do this is to rely on both the most effective cheapest healthcare known to Man---prevention, along with the judicious use of only those treatments medicines whose efficacy undesired effects is backed by sufficient evidence. Neither conventional nor alternative medicine should be given a free ride, and while much of conventional medicine cannot be trusted, neither can most of the alternative. The safety of any treatment is completely depended upon proportional to the evidence we have regarding it. Until an alternative treatment is backed by sufficient evidence, and by more than testimonial evidence or hearsay, its use is dangerous to some degree. Education skepticism are both critical to good health in today's information-glutted profit-driven world. We can only act to protect ourselves by the quality of the knowledge we possess, and while we gain our knowledge through education, we determine its quality through skepticism. Mike - Original Message From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 7:58:29 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) The main edifice of conventional allopathic (cure-the-symptom) so-called Western medicine, ie industrialised medicine, is all the hospitals. Occupying very many of those hospital beds are patients suffering from iatrogenic illnesses, that is sickness caused by medical treatment (225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes - JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5). Nonetheless a fairly august medical practitioner once got angry with my questions and shouted: Of COURSE we're more healthy now, we've got so many more hospital beds! LOL! At another time, at a meeting of the steering committee of a primary health care group working on development projects in 3rd World countries, I mentioned that there's more to health than just the absence of disease. There was a polite pause, one of the doctors said, Of course there is, and the discussion continued as if I hadn't said anything. The Western doctor who shouted at me didn't know what I was talking about when I told him that. What's the difference? The glaring difference is that there's no market in 3rd World people who earn less than $2 a day, it's just not worth all the spin and corruption. There's no money in health anyway, maintaining disease is much more profitable, whether you're Big Pharma or a GP. Twenty-five years ago after I first started working with organic growing, a young doctor who was working with me got the idea that eating properly grown food might have something to do with it. He was working in a fishing community, quite poor people, and got very enthusiastic about the success he was having with this approach (nothing new - see, eg, The Medical Testament http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#medtest). But later he complained that healthy patients didn't visit the doctor very often. Eventually he moved back to the city and became a surgeon. Every health education council I've talked to has stressed that health maintenance is primarily the patient's responsibility. But the patients are seduced by the quick cure that makes the symptom go away, and who needs more responsibility anyway? That's what doctors are for. Especially in the industrialised countries, millions of people now suffer from systemic candida albicans yeast infections, and not many of them can get effective medical treatment for it. They're quite likely to be referred to a psychiatrist instead because when they report the large variety of symptoms candida produces it's assumed to be psychosomatic. Most of the medical profession is in denial about candida because it's brought on by overuse of antibiotics and steroids. So a lot of people just die, with whatever symptom did it on the death certificate. Again to name just one, a study published in the BMJ a while back reported that back pain was the fastest-growing and one of the biggest medical problems in Britain at the time, and that conventional medicine had a very poor track record in treating it. The authors reported that several alternative therapies achieved much better results. They called for the alternative treatments to be made available via Britain's National Health scheme. That proposal didn't get very far. Some time before that the US DoA reported finding a potent anti-cancer drug in ordinary cabbages. But the report stated that the drug was unlikely to become available as it
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Hello Mike Health care today is industrialized medicine, driven by profit focused on treating the symptom rather preventing the disease. It is up to the individual to apply skepticism to the claims of this industry to protect both health pocketbook. We must take full responsibility for our health if we wish to be truly healthy; we cannot trust government or industry to do it for us. The best way to do this is to rely on both the most effective cheapest healthcare known to Man---prevention, along with the judicious use of only those treatments medicines whose efficacy undesired effects is backed by sufficient evidence. Neither conventional nor alternative medicine should be given a free ride, and while much of conventional medicine cannot be trusted, neither can most of the alternative. I agree with you up to now, but a lot of people might argue that your much and most are the wrong way round. Actually none of it is to be trusted, in all cases you have to make your own judgment based on the best information you can gather. (And peer-reviewed journals isn't necessarily it, especially not these days.) The safety of any treatment is completely depended upon proportional to the evidence we have regarding it. Until an alternative treatment is backed by sufficient evidence, and by more than testimonial evidence or hearsay, its use is dangerous to some degree. Again, you could have left out the alternative, it's superfluous, it cuts both ways. Much also depends on what you regard as evidence. From your previous posts I think you may have a little too much reverence for the Western scientific method for your own good. Would you agree with Bob's definition: efficacy proven via reproducible double blind trials, and supported by statistically significant epidemiology? That's something of a keyhole view, IMHO, with all due respect. I've done quite a lot of work with Chinese traditional medicine, both as an investigator and a few times as a patient, and also to a lesser extent with Indian and African traditional medicine, and applying such narrow, culturally-biased criteria of evidence to these disciplines (yes indeed) will definitely mean losing quite a few babies along with the bathwater. There are other ways of looking at it which are just as valid, and their application to the healing arts is established beyond serious doubt. Education skepticism are both critical to good health in today's information-glutted profit-driven world. Add: spin and disinformation-ridden, since the spinmeisters are not much fazed by education and scepticism. We can only act to protect ourselves by the quality of the knowledge we possess, and while we gain our knowledge through education, As with health, so with knowledge: to rephrase what you said, we also have to take full responsibility for our education if we wish to be truly knowledgeable. But here we are in the thick of the brave new Information Age and nary a school to be found that teaches even the basic skills of handling and interpreting information, what a surprise (not!). Most people don't even realise such skills exist, and many just naturally assume they already have all the skills required and are themselves immune to disinformation (they're among the opinion industry's greatest successes). we determine its quality through skepticism. Mike Or anyway we try to. Best Keith - Original Message From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 7:58:29 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) The main edifice of conventional allopathic (cure-the-symptom) so-called Western medicine, ie industrialised medicine, is all the hospitals. Occupying very many of those hospital beds are patients suffering from iatrogenic illnesses, that is sickness caused by medical treatment (225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes - JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5). Nonetheless a fairly august medical practitioner once got angry with my questions and shouted: Of COURSE we're more healthy now, we've got so many more hospital beds! LOL! At another time, at a meeting of the steering committee of a primary health care group working on development projects in 3rd World countries, I mentioned that there's more to health than just the absence of disease. There was a polite pause, one of the doctors said, Of course there is, and the discussion continued as if I hadn't said anything. The Western doctor who shouted at me didn't know what I was talking about when I told him that. What's the difference? The glaring difference is that there's no market in 3rd World people who earn less than $2 a day, it's just not worth all the spin and corruption. There's no money in health anyway, maintaining disease is much more profitable, whether you're Big Pharma or a GP. Twenty-five years ago after I first
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Keith Addison wrote: The main edifice of conventional allopathic (cure-the-symptom) so-called Western medicine, ie industrialised medicine, is all the hospitals. interesting term allopath, none of which as far as I am aware use the term. It was coined by Hahnemann, the founder of the most ridiculous counter-intuitive form of medicine , homeopathy. But that is another discussion. Occupying very many of those hospital beds are patients suffering from iatrogenic illnesses, that is sickness caused by medical treatment (225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes - JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5). nocosomial infections are not surprising considering sick people are in the hospital. Could more be done to control secondary infections, sure. more space, more equipment, more personnel, and more money. And I doubt don't that there are yeast infections due to over prescribing of antibacterials. But whose fault? At least here in the US many, many folks expect some medicine even if it is called for or not. Or hospital visits could be reduced by diet and lifestyle modifications, but whose responsibility is that? The patient of course. Regardless, if my appendix ruptures then I will take my chances with western medicine and a hospital. I don't disagree with your general position. But I don't see how replacing western medicine with homeopathic nonsense or high colonics a la naturopathy would be the way to solve the problem. Nonetheless a fairly august medical practitioner once got angry with my questions and shouted: Of COURSE we're more healthy now, we've got so many more hospital beds! LOL! At another time, at a meeting of the steering committee of a primary health care group working on development projects in 3rd World countries, I mentioned that there's more to health than just the absence of disease. There was a polite pause, one of the doctors said, Of course there is, and the discussion continued as if I hadn't said anything. The Western doctor who shouted at me didn't know what I was talking about when I told him that. What's the difference? The glaring difference is that there's no market in 3rd World people who earn less than $2 a day, it's just not worth all the spin and corruption. There's no money in health anyway, maintaining disease is much more profitable, whether you're Big Pharma or a GP. Twenty-five years ago after I first started working with organic growing, a young doctor who was working with me got the idea that eating properly grown food might have something to do with it. He was working in a fishing community, quite poor people, and got very enthusiastic about the success he was having with this approach (nothing new - see, eg, The Medical Testament http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#medtest). But later he complained that healthy patients didn't visit the doctor very often. Eventually he moved back to the city and became a surgeon. Every health education council I've talked to has stressed that health maintenance is primarily the patient's responsibility. But the patients are seduced by the quick cure that makes the symptom go away, and who needs more responsibility anyway? That's what doctors are for. Especially in the industrialised countries, millions of people now suffer from systemic candida albicans yeast infections, and not many of them can get effective medical treatment for it. They're quite likely to be referred to a psychiatrist instead because when they report the large variety of symptoms candida produces it's assumed to be psychosomatic. Most of the medical profession is in denial about candida because it's brought on by overuse of antibiotics and steroids. So a lot of people just die, with whatever symptom did it on the death certificate. Again to name just one, a study published in the BMJ a while back reported that back pain was the fastest-growing and one of the biggest medical problems in Britain at the time, and that conventional medicine had a very poor track record in treating it. The authors reported that several alternative therapies achieved much better results. They called for the alternative treatments to be made available via Britain's National Health scheme. That proposal didn't get very far. Some time before that the US DoA reported finding a potent anti-cancer drug in ordinary cabbages. But the report stated that the drug was unlikely to become available as it wasn't worth commercialising it because cabbages were too common. These days I suppose we'd suddenly find that cabbages had become the exclusive property of Pfizer or Bayer. There's something rollickingly insane about what happens to people who eat the food approved by the Food and Drugs Administration, and then they get the approved healthcare too (eg the Seven Deadly Drugs approved by the FDA). It's become a very
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, This is a tough call; do I believe your website, which I know nothing about or do I consider the website to be similar to some rumors you needn't trust any web site. Federal convictions are a matter of public record. as are fines and fda cease and desist orders. He is a con(vict) and a con man. plain and simple. *Criminal history* 1990: Larceny prison Trudeau's legal problems are long-standing. In 1990, he posed as a doctor in order to deposit $80,000 in false checks, and in 1991 he pled guilty to larceny after he had provided false information to obtain credit cards which he used for his own purposes. He spent two years in prison because of this conviction.(Choi, 2005) Most people in opposition to Trudeau's claims point to this felony conviction as a good reason not to trust him. 1996: SEC Trudeau rebounded, making a small fortune working for Nutrition For Life, a multi-level marketing program. However, in 1996, his recruitment practices ran afoul of the states of Illinois and Michigan, as well as the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. Michigan went so far as to forbid him from operating in the state. 1998: FTC fine Then, in 1998, he was forced to pay $500,000 in consumer redress to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), relating to six infomercials he had produced and which the FTC determined he had made false or misleading claims. 2004: FTC ban, fines More recently, on September 7, 2004, the FTC announced that they were banning Trudeau from appearing in, producing, or disseminating any future infomercials that advertise any type of product because he repeatedly made fraudulent and unsubstantiated claims in them. [1] In addition, Trudeau paid $500,000 in cash and transferred ownership of a luxury vehicle and a piece of residential property in California to satisfy a $2 million fine against him. Lydia Parnes, Acting Director of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection stated that This ban is meant to shut down an infomercial empire that has misled American consumers for years. The charges arose from work Trudeau did on an infomercial featuring Bob Barefoot and British actress Debbie Flett advertising coral calcium, a dietary supplement. However, Trudeau's infomercial advertising his book still airs on a daily basis because he is still allowed to promote publications. Airings of these infomercials in 2005 have included a guest appearance by Tammy Faye Bakker. started by people who thought that the famous environmentalist, Dr. David Suzuki, was too dangerous for the commercial world. The rumors about Suzuki, were not good for the environment but they gave amunition to people who were non environmental types. Kevin Trudeau, I am sure, has made some enemies with the Pharmaceutical Corporations and therefore could be a target. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:32:09 -0500 no, Terry, you need to look outside the book he went to prison for larceny- he stole money from people. The only big company he has headed was is own larcenous enterprises. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0826051trudeau1.html he was 28 when he copped an April 1991 plea to two counts of credit card fraud. Trudeau's indictment, a copy of which you'll find below, was filed in Massachusetts and charged him with using unauthorized access devices to defraud American Express out of $122,735.68 (he also swindled about five grand from several banks, including Chemical and Citibank). Over five years, Trudeau, now 42, used false names and social security numbers to secure charge cards which he then ferociously milked. Trudeau was sentenced to two years in prison and ordered to make restitution on his credit card schemes. After serving 21 months in Uncle Sam's custody, Trudeau was released in August 1993 and placed on two years probation. did you happen to look at any of the reports from individuals at ripoffreport.com ? Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work for Pharmacitical corporations. That info is in his book. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:40:52 -0500 Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Bob, Your negativity is showing wrt alt medicine. You imply that once one is convicted of anything, then they're incapable of speaking the truth on anything. I am more forgiving, having realized my own numerous faults. There are many studies on alt therapies and they have been shown to be safe and effective. If you visit the Life Extension Foundation website you can see many studies there. Why are you so down on alt medicine? Especially when your beloved Big Pharma takes what they think are the active elements of a plant, like willow, and then derives a drug from it. The point is that BP was led to this plant by its being used as medicine for hundreds of years. You could say that Big Pharma is validating an herb by this approach. You seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech approach to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot and, imo, that's a fundamental error. Not only that, but they insist that only their way is science and we that disagree are goofy. Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the herbs, vitamins, and supplements on the shelves in today's health food store. That is the aim of Codex Alimentarius. Of course, it is to be done to protect the citizens of America, Australia, England, Germany, etc. It will be done with no public input and to harmonize our trade with all of our trade partners. So, instead of harmonizing upwards in access to potent herbs, supplements, vitamins, ets., we will all be dragged down to near RDA (recommmended daily allowance) levels with a lot of stuff simply disappearing. One example of alt medicine in action: http://www.cancerinform.org/aburzinterview.html Dr Burzynski uses antineoplastins to cure a lot of people who are in advanced stages of cancer. He has been thoroughly harassed in spite of his successes by a bully FDA. Dr Julian Whitaker stuck up for him, mounting petition campaigns. It worked, it seems that today the FDA is leaving him be. Cancer is a huge business and there little incentive to find real cures that are safe and effective. Burzynski represents a threat but he held his ground. My hat is off to him. The German Commission E (similar to our FDA but studies herbs only) has done studies on hundreds of herbs and found most to be useful. The monographs are available in book form. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:44 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) D. Mindock wrote: I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired. no, the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he only sells books about health care products. I got his last two books. They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says. keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud. He stole peoples money. what makes you think he's telling the truth now? did you read any of the comments at ripoffreport.com ? he is a scam artist I have seen too many people, friends and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with drugs, and as long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them exclusively. a commendable notion, but where do you get reliable information on efficacy? from a con artist? It is a fact that all alt practioners are under attack. The more successful they are, the more they're stymied in their work by the FDA. how do you measure success? The reason they are under attack as you call it not because of success, but because they make unsubstantiated claims. For example mercola -- Mercola gets second warning letter. The FDA has ordered Joseph Mercola, DO and his Optimal Wellness Center to stop making illegal claims for four products. The order was based on product labels collected during an inspection at his facility and on claims made on the Optimum Wellness Center Web site. The objectionable claims include: **Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, claimed to help to virtually eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future. **Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of heart disease, cancer, and degenerative diseases. **Momentum Health Products Vitamin K2, possibly useful in treating certain kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease. **Momentum Health Products Cardio Essentials Nattokinase NSK-SD, claimed to be a much safer and effective option than aspirin and other pharmaceutical agents to treating heart disease. --- This is one of the primary functions of the AMA. It has no enforcement powers so it calls on the FDA. It is called protecting thy turf. Alt medicine is growing by leaps and bounds and is the wave of the future,
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
D. Mindock wrote: Bob, Your negativity is showing wrt alt medicine. You imply that once one is convicted of anything, then they're incapable of speaking the truth on anything. the problem is that he appears to still be offering up less than the truth. see for example http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Health/story?id=1527774 I am more forgiving, having realized my own numerous faults. There are many studies on alt therapies and they have been shown to be safe and effective. and many which have shown to do nothing. If you visit the Life Extension Foundation website you can see many studies there. Why are you so down on alt medicine? Especially when your beloved Big Pharma my beloved big pharma? those are your words not mine, so be careful about what you attribute to who. takes what they think are the active elements of a plant, like willow, and then derives a drug from it. The point is that BP was led to this plant by its being used as medicine for hundreds of years. were going in circles here, I said just the same previously- pharmacognosy You could say that Big Pharma is validating an herb by this approach. I agree You seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech approach if by western medicine you mean efficacy proven via reproducible double blind trials, and supported by statistically significant epidemiology then yes I am held it its sway. to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot this seems to be somewhat meaningless. so how does alt medicine differ in its treatment of the body? and, imo, that's a fundamental error. Not only that, but they insist that only their way is science and we that disagree are goofy. your words not mine. My gripe is with people who couch there arguments about efficacy in science like terminology without any real scientific support. For example at the life extension site, which is there to make money after all, are a lot of questionable and/ or way overpriced nostrums for sale. Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the herbs, vitamins, and supplements on the shelves in today's health food store. I keep asking for examples of this. Give me one good example for us to discuss. That is the aim of Codex Alimentarius. Of course, it is to be done to protect the citizens of America, Australia, England, Germany, etc. It will be done with no public input and to harmonize our trade with all of our trade partners. so you think the World Health Organization and the UN are out the keep you from getting herbs? So, instead of harmonizing upwards in access to potent herbs, supplements, vitamins, ets., we will all be dragged down to near RDA (recommmended daily allowance) levels with a lot of stuff simply disappearing. One example of alt medicine in action: http://www.cancerinform.org/aburzinterview.html Dr Burzynski uses antineoplastins to cure a lot of people who are in advanced stages of cancer. He has been thoroughly harassed in spite of his successes actually I find little evidence of success, at least as published in peer reviewed journals. Here is another example of a treatment that is wrapped in science so to speak, but has generated scant evidence, other than a few case histories. And these frequently involved other treatments so it is not clear just what is going on. by a bully FDA. Dr Julian Whitaker stuck up for him, mounting petition campaigns. It worked, it seems that today the FDA is leaving him be. Cancer is a huge business And I bet Burzynski is doing quite well at treating it. whether he is curing it is another matter altogether. and there little incentive to find real cures that are safe and effective. Burzynski represents a threat but he held his ground. and his income My hat is off to him. The German Commission E (similar to our FDA but studies herbs only) has done studies on hundreds of herbs and found most to be useful. The monographs are available in book form. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:44 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) D. Mindock wrote: I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired. no, the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he only sells books about health care products. I got his last two books. They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says. keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud. He stole peoples money. what makes you think he's telling the truth now? did you read any of the comments at ripoffreport.com ? he is a scam artist I have seen too many people, friends and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with drugs, and as long
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
The main edifice of conventional allopathic (cure-the-symptom) so-called Western medicine, ie industrialised medicine, is all the hospitals. Occupying very many of those hospital beds are patients suffering from iatrogenic illnesses, that is sickness caused by medical treatment (225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes - JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5). Nonetheless a fairly august medical practitioner once got angry with my questions and shouted: Of COURSE we're more healthy now, we've got so many more hospital beds! LOL! At another time, at a meeting of the steering committee of a primary health care group working on development projects in 3rd World countries, I mentioned that there's more to health than just the absence of disease. There was a polite pause, one of the doctors said, Of course there is, and the discussion continued as if I hadn't said anything. The Western doctor who shouted at me didn't know what I was talking about when I told him that. What's the difference? The glaring difference is that there's no market in 3rd World people who earn less than $2 a day, it's just not worth all the spin and corruption. There's no money in health anyway, maintaining disease is much more profitable, whether you're Big Pharma or a GP. Twenty-five years ago after I first started working with organic growing, a young doctor who was working with me got the idea that eating properly grown food might have something to do with it. He was working in a fishing community, quite poor people, and got very enthusiastic about the success he was having with this approach (nothing new - see, eg, The Medical Testament http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#medtest). But later he complained that healthy patients didn't visit the doctor very often. Eventually he moved back to the city and became a surgeon. Every health education council I've talked to has stressed that health maintenance is primarily the patient's responsibility. But the patients are seduced by the quick cure that makes the symptom go away, and who needs more responsibility anyway? That's what doctors are for. Especially in the industrialised countries, millions of people now suffer from systemic candida albicans yeast infections, and not many of them can get effective medical treatment for it. They're quite likely to be referred to a psychiatrist instead because when they report the large variety of symptoms candida produces it's assumed to be psychosomatic. Most of the medical profession is in denial about candida because it's brought on by overuse of antibiotics and steroids. So a lot of people just die, with whatever symptom did it on the death certificate. Again to name just one, a study published in the BMJ a while back reported that back pain was the fastest-growing and one of the biggest medical problems in Britain at the time, and that conventional medicine had a very poor track record in treating it. The authors reported that several alternative therapies achieved much better results. They called for the alternative treatments to be made available via Britain's National Health scheme. That proposal didn't get very far. Some time before that the US DoA reported finding a potent anti-cancer drug in ordinary cabbages. But the report stated that the drug was unlikely to become available as it wasn't worth commercialising it because cabbages were too common. These days I suppose we'd suddenly find that cabbages had become the exclusive property of Pfizer or Bayer. There's something rollickingly insane about what happens to people who eat the food approved by the Food and Drugs Administration, and then they get the approved healthcare too (eg the Seven Deadly Drugs approved by the FDA). It's become a very Orwellian word, healthcare has. Things are indeed much as D. describes them, sad to say. Best Keith Bob, Your negativity is showing wrt alt medicine. You imply that once one is convicted of anything, then they're incapable of speaking the truth on anything. I am more forgiving, having realized my own numerous faults. There are many studies on alt therapies and they have been shown to be safe and effective. If you visit the Life Extension Foundation website you can see many studies there. Why are you so down on alt medicine? Especially when your beloved Big Pharma takes what they think are the active elements of a plant, like willow, and then derives a drug from it. The point is that BP was led to this plant by its being used as medicine for hundreds of years. You could say that Big Pharma is validating an herb by this approach. You seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech approach to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot and, imo, that's a fundamental error. Not only that, but they insist that only their way is science and we that disagree are goofy. Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
I don't think conventional western medicine has all the answers, anymore than I think the alternatives do. Like Bob, I like to see unbiased evidence of efficacy before putting my faith into things that will affect my health directly. I am very suspicious of the western medical-industrial complex. Clearly, we need to fix things, the system is breaking at a lot of levels. We prescribe too many antibiotics. We also get too many via our food produced by the agrifood industry. They even show up in quantity in our water systems. We don't focus enough on wellness and prevention, and too much on disease treatment. About a decade ago, I was having health problems that stymied my doctor and a wealth of specialists. In an attempt to deal with one of the symptoms, I visited a chiropractor for the first time. He took my history, and quizzed me on symptoms. After all that, he took an x-ray on my spine with an antique machine. I worried about the radiation exposure. On my second visit, he told me the problem was in my sixth or seventh cervical vertebra. On my next visit, I mentioned this to my doctor. Predictably, she scoffed. However, this time she sent me to a neurologist (if you can't fix 'em, refer 'em). He ordered an MRI. That took several months on a waiting list. During that period the chiropractor kept me mobile, although I resorted to using canes for stability. I finally got the MRI appointment. I could no longer stand with my eyes closed without the canes. I was becoming incontinent. The MRI revealed I had a tumour inside my spine, at the C7 vertebra. As it was growing, it was compressing the nerve bundle, shutting down my nervous system below C7. I saw the neuro-surgeon for the first time more than a year after the chiropractor's diagnosis. During this period, I became diabetic. My conventional doctors say there is no connection, and I would be on insulin within four years. The chiropractor says there absolutely is a connection - the automomic system connection to the pancreas is below C7. A decade later, I am still insulin-independent, though my sugars are not yet back in the normal range without medication. So, I may not trust big pharma, but so far they are still part of my daily life. I have tried some alternatives, but so far, exercise and prescription meds have produced the best results. Yes, this story is anecdotal. However, when we're talking about a schwanoma tumour in men, this is a less than one in a million occurrence, so conducting repeatable double blind trials may be a bit problematic. But I think it is indicative of why so many of us feel there is something to alternative medicine, and our distrust of conventional western medicine. I think both approaches have merits, and having them in an adversarial embrace does not address the fundamental issue of improving our health. There is good to be had from both approaches. There are charlatans residing in both camps. If there is an answer, it is to extract the best from both, and shed the baggage that each carries. Darryl McMahon Keith Addison wrote: The main edifice of conventional allopathic (cure-the-symptom) so-called Western medicine, ie industrialised medicine, is all the hospitals. Occupying very many of those hospital beds are patients suffering from iatrogenic illnesses, that is sickness caused by medical treatment (225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes - JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5). Nonetheless a fairly august medical practitioner once got angry with my questions and shouted: Of COURSE we're more healthy now, we've got so many more hospital beds! LOL! At another time, at a meeting of the steering committee of a primary health care group working on development projects in 3rd World countries, I mentioned that there's more to health than just the absence of disease. There was a polite pause, one of the doctors said, Of course there is, and the discussion continued as if I hadn't said anything. The Western doctor who shouted at me didn't know what I was talking about when I told him that. What's the difference? The glaring difference is that there's no market in 3rd World people who earn less than $2 a day, it's just not worth all the spin and corruption. There's no money in health anyway, maintaining disease is much more profitable, whether you're Big Pharma or a GP. Twenty-five years ago after I first started working with organic growing, a young doctor who was working with me got the idea that eating properly grown food might have something to do with it. He was working in a fishing community, quite poor people, and got very enthusiastic about the success he was having with this approach (nothing new - see, eg, The Medical Testament http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#medtest). But later he complained that healthy patients didn't visit the doctor very often. Eventually he moved back to the city and became a surgeon. Every health
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Hi Bob, This is a tough call; do I believe your website, which I know nothing about or do I consider the website to be similar to some rumors started by people who thought that the famous environmentalist, Dr. David Suzuki, was too dangerous for the commercial world. The rumors about Suzuki, were not good for the environment but they gave amunition to people who were non environmental types. Kevin Trudeau, I am sure, has made some enemies with the Pharmaceutical Corporations and therefore could be a target. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:32:09 -0500 no, Terry, you need to look outside the book he went to prison for larceny- he stole money from people. The only big company he has headed was is own larcenous enterprises. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0826051trudeau1.html he was 28 when he copped an April 1991 plea to two counts of credit card fraud. Trudeau's indictment, a copy of which you'll find below, was filed in Massachusetts and charged him with using unauthorized access devices to defraud American Express out of $122,735.68 (he also swindled about five grand from several banks, including Chemical and Citibank). Over five years, Trudeau, now 42, used false names and social security numbers to secure charge cards which he then ferociously milked. Trudeau was sentenced to two years in prison and ordered to make restitution on his credit card schemes. After serving 21 months in Uncle Sam's custody, Trudeau was released in August 1993 and placed on two years probation. did you happen to look at any of the reports from individuals at ripoffreport.com ? Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work for Pharmacitical corporations. That info is in his book. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:40:52 -0500 Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. here is the ftc statement http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been treated by the man. http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALLq5=kevin+trudeausubmit2=Search%21q4=q6=q3=q2=q7=searchtype=0 you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, The book titled Natural Cures they don't want you to know about, by Kevin Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world. Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt work to please the share holders of his company. then he is corrupt to do it. and just what company was that? I don't mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma. He was expected to do this corrupt work in order to keep his job. He also explains that the FDA quite often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of Drug companies profits. got a verifiable example? You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can influence information. Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc. now here we agree. From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500 That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily. Here is what I should have sent: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. Mindock in stating that I to believe in science. There is good science and bad science. bad science has little meaning in my mind. One can pursue information via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not.
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired. I got his last two books. They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says. I have seen too many people, friends and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with drugs, and as long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them exclusively. It is a fact that all alt practioners are under attack. The more successful they are, the more they're stymied in their work by the FDA. This is one of the primary functions of the AMA. It has no enforcement powers so it calls on the FDA. It is called protecting thy turf. Alt medicine is growing by leaps and bounds and is the wave of the future, if, a big if, it can survive the onslaught from the FDA, AMA, and Codex Alimentarius. Big Pharma is the creator/backer of the Codex and I have no doubt that many Repugs and a few key Dems are being primed to pass legislation to make it a done deal in the U$ of A. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. here is the ftc statement http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been treated by the man. http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALLq5=kevin+trudeausubmit2=Search%21q4=q6=q3=q2=q7=searchtype=0 you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, The book titled Natural Cures they don't want you to know about, by Kevin Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world. Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt work to please the share holders of his company. then he is corrupt to do it. and just what company was that? I don't mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma. He was expected to do this corrupt work in order to keep his job. He also explains that the FDA quite often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of Drug companies profits. got a verifiable example? You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can influence information. Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc. now here we agree. From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500 That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily. Here is what I should have sent: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. Mindock in stating that I to believe in science. There is good science and bad science. bad science has little meaning in my mind. One can pursue information via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not. There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science. When it comes to the western world and health money seems to be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations. or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless array of hucksters? So we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. not on this list, huh. But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma. This is not good for human health. Terry Dyck From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500 Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be bought to produce desired outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to run computer models of the atmosphere and to
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
D. Mindock wrote: I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired. no, the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he only sells books about health care products. I got his last two books. They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says. keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud. He stole peoples money. what makes you think he's telling the truth now? did you read any of the comments at ripoffreport.com ? he is a scam artist I have seen too many people, friends and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with drugs, and as long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them exclusively. a commendable notion, but where do you get reliable information on efficacy? from a con artist? It is a fact that all alt practioners are under attack. The more successful they are, the more they're stymied in their work by the FDA. how do you measure success? The reason they are under attack as you call it not because of success, but because they make unsubstantiated claims. For example mercola -- Mercola gets second warning letter. The FDA has ordered Joseph Mercola, DO and his Optimal Wellness Center to stop making illegal claims for four products. The order was based on product labels collected during an inspection at his facility and on claims made on the Optimum Wellness Center Web site. The objectionable claims include: **Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, claimed to help to virtually eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future. **Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of heart disease, cancer, and degenerative diseases. **Momentum Health Products Vitamin K2, possibly useful in treating certain kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease. **Momentum Health Products Cardio Essentials Nattokinase NSK-SD, claimed to be a much safer and effective option than aspirin and other pharmaceutical agents to treating heart disease. --- This is one of the primary functions of the AMA. It has no enforcement powers so it calls on the FDA. It is called protecting thy turf. Alt medicine is growing by leaps and bounds and is the wave of the future, if, a big if, it can survive the onslaught from the FDA, AMA, and Codex Alimentarius. and another big if is can it be proven to really do anything. Big Pharma is the creator/backer of the Codex and I have no doubt that many Repugs and a few key Dems are being primed to pass legislation to make it a done deal in the U$ of A. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. here is the ftc statement http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been treated by the man. http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALLq5=kevin+trudeausubmit2=Search%21q4=q6=q3=q2=q7=searchtype=0 you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, The book titled Natural Cures they don't want you to know about, by Kevin Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world. Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt work to please the share holders of his company. then he is corrupt to do it. and just what company was that? I don't mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma. He was expected to do this corrupt work in order to keep his job. He also explains that the FDA quite often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of Drug companies profits. got a verifiable example? You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can influence information. Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc. now here we agree. From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To:
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Hi Bob, The book titled Natural Cures they don't want you to know about, by Kevin Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world. Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt work to please the share holders of his company. He was expected to do this corrupt work in order to keep his job. He also explains that the FDA quite often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of Drug companies profits. You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can influence information. Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc. From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500 That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily. Here is what I should have sent: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. Mindock in stating that I to believe in science. There is good science and bad science. bad science has little meaning in my mind. One can pursue information via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not. There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science. When it comes to the western world and health money seems to be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations. or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless array of hucksters? So we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. not on this list, huh. But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma. This is not good for human health. Terry Dyck From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500 Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be bought to produce desired outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to run computer models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more closely to reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard. Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge into hung-over college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe inspiring at times. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence) Hi Kurt; Pardon my snipping style but. Kurt Nolte wrote: snip On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head. These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by synthetic processes just don't hack it. Actually I don't believe I ever said that! I am opposing Bob to some degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are saying about the others. I am very scientifically inclined, I run a university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the answers. I still have great respect for science and believe that one day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain. All I am suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be rejected. I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in dissagreement. I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed minded. Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. here is the ftc statement http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been treated by the man. http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALLq5=kevin+trudeausubmit2=Search%21q4=q6=q3=q2=q7=searchtype=0 you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, The book titled Natural Cures they don't want you to know about, by Kevin Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world. Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt work to please the share holders of his company. then he is corrupt to do it. and just what company was that? I don't mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma. He was expected to do this corrupt work in order to keep his job. He also explains that the FDA quite often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of Drug companies profits. got a verifiable example? You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can influence information. Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc. now here we agree. From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500 That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily. Here is what I should have sent: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. Mindock in stating that I to believe in science. There is good science and bad science. bad science has little meaning in my mind. One can pursue information via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not. There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science. When it comes to the western world and health money seems to be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations. or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless array of hucksters? So we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. not on this list, huh. But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma. This is not good for human health. Terry Dyck From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500 Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be bought to produce desired outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to run computer models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more closely to reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard. Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge into hung-over college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe inspiring at times. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence) Hi Kurt; Pardon my snipping style but. Kurt Nolte wrote: snip On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head. These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by synthetic processes just don't hack it. Actually I don't believe I ever said that! I am opposing Bob to some degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Hi Bob, Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work for Pharmacitical corporations. That info is in his book. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:40:52 -0500 Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. here is the ftc statement http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been treated by the man. http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALLq5=kevin+trudeausubmit2=Search%21q4=q6=q3=q2=q7=searchtype=0 you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, The book titled Natural Cures they don't want you to know about, by Kevin Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world. Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt work to please the share holders of his company. then he is corrupt to do it. and just what company was that? I don't mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma. He was expected to do this corrupt work in order to keep his job. He also explains that the FDA quite often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of Drug companies profits. got a verifiable example? You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can influence information. Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc. now here we agree. From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500 That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily. Here is what I should have sent: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. Mindock in stating that I to believe in science. There is good science and bad science. bad science has little meaning in my mind. One can pursue information via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not. There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science. When it comes to the western world and health money seems to be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations. or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless array of hucksters? So we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. not on this list, huh. But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma. This is not good for human health. Terry Dyck From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500 Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be bought to produce desired outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to run computer models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more closely to reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard. Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge into hung-over college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe inspiring at times. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence) Hi Kurt; Pardon my snipping style but. Kurt Nolte wrote: snip On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
no, Terry, you need to look outside the book he went to prison for larceny- he stole money from people. The only big company he has headed was is own larcenous enterprises. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0826051trudeau1.html he was 28 when he copped an April 1991 plea to two counts of credit card fraud. Trudeau's indictment, a copy of which you'll find below, was filed in Massachusetts and charged him with using unauthorized access devices to defraud American Express out of $122,735.68 (he also swindled about five grand from several banks, including Chemical and Citibank). Over five years, Trudeau, now 42, used false names and social security numbers to secure charge cards which he then ferociously milked. Trudeau was sentenced to two years in prison and ordered to make restitution on his credit card schemes. After serving 21 months in Uncle Sam's custody, Trudeau was released in August 1993 and placed on two years probation. did you happen to look at any of the reports from individuals at ripoffreport.com ? Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work for Pharmacitical corporations. That info is in his book. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:40:52 -0500 Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. here is the ftc statement http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been treated by the man. http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALLq5=kevin+trudeausubmit2=Search%21q4=q6=q3=q2=q7=searchtype=0 you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, The book titled Natural Cures they don't want you to know about, by Kevin Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world. Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt work to please the share holders of his company. then he is corrupt to do it. and just what company was that? I don't mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma. He was expected to do this corrupt work in order to keep his job. He also explains that the FDA quite often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of Drug companies profits. got a verifiable example? You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can influence information. Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc. now here we agree. From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500 That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily. Here is what I should have sent: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. Mindock in stating that I to believe in science. There is good science and bad science. bad science has little meaning in my mind. One can pursue information via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not. There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science. When it comes to the western world and health money seems to be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations. or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless array of hucksters? So we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. not on this list, huh. But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma. This is not good for human health. Terry Dyck From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date:
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. Mindock in stating that I to believe in science. There is good science and bad science. When it comes to the western world and health money seems to be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations. So we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. This is not good for human health. Terry Dyck From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500 Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be bought to produce desired outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to run computer models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more closely to reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard. Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge into hung-over college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe inspiring at times. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence) Hi Kurt; Pardon my snipping style but. Kurt Nolte wrote: snip On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head. These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by synthetic processes just don't hack it. Actually I don't believe I ever said that! I am opposing Bob to some degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are saying about the others. I am very scientifically inclined, I run a university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the answers. I still have great respect for science and believe that one day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain. All I am suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be rejected. I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in dissagreement. I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed minded. Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily. Here is what I should have sent: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. Mindock in stating that I to believe in science. There is good science and bad science. bad science has little meaning in my mind. One can pursue information via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not. There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science. When it comes to the western world and health money seems to be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations. or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless array of hucksters? So we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. not on this list, huh. But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma. This is not good for human health. Terry Dyck From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500 Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be bought to produce desired outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to run computer models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more closely to reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard. Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge into hung-over college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe inspiring at times. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence) Hi Kurt; Pardon my snipping style but. Kurt Nolte wrote: snip On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head. These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by synthetic processes just don't hack it. Actually I don't believe I ever said that! I am opposing Bob to some degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are saying about the others. I am very scientifically inclined, I run a university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the answers. I still have great respect for science and believe that one day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain. All I am suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be rejected. I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in dissagreement. I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed minded. Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://www.ozarker.org/bob - Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves. Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Good Day to All, Gustl wrote: And again, mystical experience can be verified if one has enough interest to take the time (and it is a long process) to investigate. In August of 1973 I was standing atop a Mountain at an elevation of about 14,000ft. I saw the plains stretching out as far as the eye could see. My bride of 4 days was about three feet away from me. We were expressing awe at what stretched out before us. When she said Mountains, mountains, as far as the eye can see I was jolted. I turned to see that she was behind me looking in the opposite direction at an apparently endless sea of mountains.. This was not so much a mystical experience, but it brought a big smile to my face. Viewpoint took on a whole new meaning. About a month later I was back at work. A social studies teacher had invited guests from a Zen Monastary (?) to visit his class and speak to the students. Out of curiosity, I stopped by the classroom on my way to lunch. Another teacher was also there. He was being rude and, I thought, insulting joking about mysticism mumbo-jumbo. The guests seemed to smile a lot. One finally asked him Who is coming down the hall? The rude teacher replied that he did not know. The visitor said Of course not. Sometimes one must take steps to see what others see. The rude teacher said Yeah, I'm taking steps. I'm going to lunch. The classroom teacher apologized for the rudeness. The visitors smiled and shrugged it off. It brought a big smile to my face. I think I understood what they meant. I know that one can change one's point of view simply by turning one's head. Sometimes it requires reading a book, visiting another culture, or actually listening to what another person is saying. Sometimes it takes a few months reading posts on a global mailing list. For some, it can be a life-long journey. Simply put, ones' point of view depends on the steps taken to produce it. .. mystical experience can be verified if one has enough interest to take the time (and it is a long process) to investigate. I believe the visitors to my friend's classroom had taken the steps that opened up a world that the rest of us occassional catch glimpses of, if at all. Thanks Gustl. I don't know if this applies to what you wrote. After reading your post these old, dust-covered memories rose to the surface along with the same smile each event produced. I hope your day is full of smiles. Tom - Original Message - From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Friebel biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Hallo Michael, I may be running on assumptions here and you appear to me to be running on some assumptions, but I do realize that assumptions are only that and nothing more and may be false. Perhaps it is just a matter of definitions or perception. I will give both of us the benefit of the doubt. :o) I was born into, raised as and am presently a member of a mystical religion, that being Friends (Quakers). We had a schism back in the early 1800's here in the states and my family ended up on the Hicksite side of the thing. Outwardly conservative and inwardly liberal. Hicks once stated the following: Now I want these things to sink deep into the heart of every age, sex and condition. Be willing to investigate for yourselves; don't mind what I say, or what any one else may say, but bring things home to the truth in your own bosoms; turn them over and over, and see if there is not something in them worthy of preservation--and if there is not, leave them. I say, I want you to investigate for yourselves; for we have that liberty, in this land of liberty. We have a right to think for ourselves, about what we know to be the truth in ourselves, and nothing but the truth...Oh! then, that we may become willing to turn inward to what the light makes manifest...Whatsoever is wrong is reproved by this light, and all things that are reproveable we know, for they are made manifest by the light; clearly so. And it is reasonable to conclude that without light, nothing can be made manifest. But when we come into the light of the Lord, all things will be made manifest, when the mind is willing, and the heart is disposed to receive God in the way of his coming. I feel earnest in my desires for us, that we may this evening lay these things properly to heart. I hope you will take these things home, my friends, and not be hasty in deciding, but turn them over in your minds, and if you can find any thing in them, well, and if not leave them. (Gould 1830) If this isn't the mystical equivalent of the scientific method then I will eat my hat (either
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Hi Mary; I've found curiosity in many things and have always enjoyed the wondering process my mind can take. Curiosity, wonderment, imagination are some of the most wonderful things that we experience, being not only productive but probably essential, and really add something of great beauty to life. I am not advocating the closure of doors; the possibilites are always there (in an ironic sense, our inability to know certainty keeps the wonder alive). What I am saying is that it is most beneficial to only ascribe a degree of truth to an idea that is warranted by the only objective measure we have: the evidence. Every idea must merit its status any idea must be allowed to fall accordingly. It's the only way we will be able to best understand our lives, which we must before we can best manage them. Your example of the pet behavior is a completely valid question that we should strive to understand to which we could easily apply science. And, you are right that outright dismissing such a phenomenon would be to discard some of that wonderment curiosity that is so important in our lives. The same goes for your description of the coastal animals who seemed to presage the Indian Ocean tsunami, which I had read wondered about. Reliable conclusions have existed through out our existence. That is the reason we survived. Those that reached unreliable conclusions can be counted among the extinct. That's exactly true well said. Science has it's place but equally the wonder of the mystics also need to be acknowledged. I don't think science can or does degrade wonder. It revels thrives in it, and it does slowly chip away at what exactly we can so easily wonder about, often to only reveal more mysteries than we began with, but it does not close doors to what it cannot or has not explained, or even to what it has explained. It is merely a method that allows us to choose the best explanations given our current knowledge. There will always be reason to wonder. Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Gustl...I'm not the "Michael" to whom you have addressed your words, but that doesn't matter. Your words ring true...true...with me nonetheless. Thank you. To "Michael" and "Bob" and whomever has decided to be strictly "scientific"in the sense thatthe "scientific"might exclude the "mystical" or, more specifically, what can only be verified subjectively: Will you doubt that everything is connected? If you will, enjoy your masturbation. If you will not, then what might be the implications? What might be not only the probabilities but also the possibilities? Our world is constantly subjected...subjected...to the objective for purely, I am convinced,selfish purposes. But, if you have accepted that all is connected, then the objective must be an illusion. So now what? I don't know...but I want to know. The objective path has led our world to ruin. Consequently, I am personally disinclined to allow my personal history to be a repeat of this unexamined history.Whether or not anyone else does, somehow I don't believe it really matters...because we are all connected, not just with each other, but with every star and the void that engulfs them, not just now, but forever now. Perhaps one day our schools will devote a portion of the curriculum to that whereby we are all connected. Classrooms of extreme quietude, whereby each individual is awakened in meditation. Perhaps these classrooms exist already, as I'm sure they must. When they become public, however, then we will know thatwhat is true has broken through the void in some fundamental way perhaps never known throughout the universe. Maybe that will happen here on planet earth...maybe it is happening alreadyelsewhere, although somehow I doubt it because when it does, the universe will have somehow fundamentally changed and become something it has never been before, another step in the real evolution, the evolutionof consciousness and curiosity. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: "Gustl Steiner-Zehender" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Michael Friebel" biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Hallo Michael, I may be running on assumptions here and you appear to me to be running on some assumptions, but I do realize that assumptions are only that and nothing more and may be false. Perhaps it is just a matter of definitions or perception. I will give both of us the benefit of the doubt. :o) I was born into, raised as and am presently a member of a mystical religion, that being Friends (Quakers). We had a schism back in the early 1800's here in the states and my family ended up on the "Hicksite" side of the thing. Outwardly conservative and inwardly liberal. Hicks once stated the following: "Now I want these things to sink deep into the heart of every age, sex and condition. Be willing to investigate for yourselves; don't mind what I say, or what any one else may say, but bring things home to the truth in your own bosoms; turn them over and over, and see if there is not something in them worthy of preservation--and if there is not, leave them. I say, I want you to investigate for yourselves; for we have that liberty, in this land of liberty. We have a right to think for ourselves, about what we know to be the truth in ourselves, and nothing but the truth...Oh! then, that we may become willing to turn inward to what the light makes manifest...Whatsoever is wrong is reproved by this light, and all things that are reproveable we know, for they are made manifest by the light; clearly so. And it is reasonable to conclude that without light, nothing can be made manifest. But when we come into the light of the Lord, all things will be made manifest, when the mind is willing, and the heart is disposed to receive God in the way of his coming. I feel earnest in my desires for us, that we may this evening lay these things properly to heart. I hope you will take these things home, my friends, and not be hasty in deciding, but turn them over in your minds, and if you can find any thing in them, well, and if not leave them." (Gould 1830) If this isn't the mystical equivalent of the scientific method then I will eat my hat (either straw or felt). It uses operational terms, allows for experimental duplication and repeatability, calls for emperical observation and induction, uses analytic-synthetic thinking, allows for prediction and falsification and the conclusions come from a "scientific" public consensus of truth. While all of this is not readily observable from the small paragraph above, it is if one takes the time to get acquainted with Friends beliefs (or those of other branches of mystics). You should be able to get the sense of it from the paragraph above though. But brother, we haven't defined out terms. You claim mystical experience is
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Love your sense of humor D, ie Bob's love of data etc at times being awe inspiring. But Bob might consider your comments awful. It's 4am as I write this, and I'm awfully tired. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 2:33 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be bought to produce desired outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to run computer models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more closely to reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard. Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge into hung-over college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe inspiring at times. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence) Hi Kurt; Pardon my snipping style but. Kurt Nolte wrote: snip On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head. These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by synthetic processes just don't hack it. Actually I don't believe I ever said that! I am opposing Bob to some degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are saying about the others. I am very scientifically inclined, I run a university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the answers. I still have great respect for science and believe that one day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain. All I am suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be rejected. I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in dissagreement. I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed minded. Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
I've found curiosity in many things and have always enjoyed the wondering process my mind can take. Anyone who has ever lived with a pet perhaps has wondered why the animal is always waiting at the door when they have returned home. There have been many varying answers down to and including sight, scent, feelings of physical vibrations relating to how the animal knows. There was a filmed test done that was televised. This test was repeated many times with many different people and their animals. Basically, the human was taken away by a controller .. This controller made all the decisions as to where they went, how long they stayed out, the route and method of returning home. This was filmed by a 3rd person with a camcorder. At the house, a second camcorder had been set up that gave a fairly wide view of the room and the approach to the front door. What the film showed was the animal sleeping, eating, drinking from it's water bowl .. doing what our animals do when we are not at home. At the exact moment (side by side timers on the 2 separate camcorders) when the controller announced that now we are going home, the animal would get up and go and sit by the front door. Now I can imagine that someone could very well be jumping up and down screaming that that isn't science .. and if that were to happen, I could only speculate that they would be missing a vital portion of what life has to offer. Shortly after the massive tsunami left thousands dead and lying on the beaches one of the things that was noted and announced but with very little (if any) follow up was the fact that there were no bodies of the wild animals .. and very few stray animals were found .. nor was there any harm done to those peoples who lived and followed their tribal ways .. these people had started moving inland and to higher ground as much as a week in advanced. Reliable conclusions have existed through out our existence. That is the reason we survived. Those that reached unreliable conclusions can be counted among the extinct. I have had the honor of knowing an individual who was given the technical writing job(s) of projects far beyond any technical writing abilities he had. He was given the jobs with unreasonable time frames and this was done, in my opinion, to discredit him and have him lose his devoted following with the clients. I understood what he was doing when he would have a 2 week time frame to complete a project for final review. If he had 2 weeks he would walk the halls for 1.5 of those weeks and sit down and write fairly straight for 3 days .. one time, no corrections, no revisions .. and it was done and it was done far beyond the clients hopes and/or expectations. Science has it's place but equally the wonder of the mystics also need to be acknowledged. Mary Lynn Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior Modification . Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy Practitioner . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity . The Animal Connection Healing Modalities http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/ http://allcreatureconnections.org From: Michael Friebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:15:28 -0700 (PDT) but I am also a sceptic of the idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the answers. So then, what other epistemic method do we have from which to form reliable conclusions? It may be that it is the definition/scope of science that is in question here. I claim that there is no epistemic method that does not rely upon verifiable experience. I also claim that the reliability of any conclusion is solely dependent upon proportional to the amount of empirical support garnered. What method is there that isnt empirical? How can the reliability of a proposition vary without regard to empirical support? It is an understatement that science does not have all the answers, but we have achieved grandly by it and there is no competition to be found. In that sense, it is the end-all, be-all. All I am suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be rejected. While it must be rejected as proven true, it does not need to be rejected outright and be considered false. Instead, it needs to be viewed as a possibly false unreliable proposition that could be dangerous if relied upon, depending on the evidence available the context. That brings up a critical point: context. I would not cross a street without looking regardless of unproven claims stating the lack of necessity. However, I only eat organic food despite possessing little evidence to show
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Marylynn, A friend recently told me of a book dealing with the very thing you are speaking about; he referred to morphic fields. The reason the book came up is because we were talking about my dog. I have a dog that gets very agitated several minutes before a particular person even comes into sight on her walk past my house. My dog's response to other people range from total indifference to barking with tail wagging. This happens when they are in the driveway, or at least in sight. Recently a young man stopped by to see my biodiesel setup. He is a veterinarian. As he played with my dog I told him about the walker as we call her. She thinks the dog is ferocious. He just laughed at the idea. He said the dog is friendly/playful, not ferocious. A few minutes later my dog began to pace and become agitated. We were outside. My visitor asked what's going on? I had seen this numerous times before. I said that the woman is coming. He looked up the road. There was nobody in sight. There was little/no breeze, and what little there was was blowing in the direction the woman was coming from. The vet. found it very interesting. My dog was getting agitated. When this happens I play with her to distract her; to calm her down. It was a full 5 minutes later that we saw the woman approaching, still more than a quarter of a mile away. By the time the woman passed in front of the house my dog was barking, and the fur on her back was up. The veterinarian, raised and trained in Europe, wanted to talk to the woman find out if she's on any medications/diagnosed with any psychological/emotional disorders, etc. I told him Not a good idea. We don't get along. He simply commented that the dog is saying a something about her. A woman in our town has a seizure dog. It lets her know before she has an epileptic siezure. She takes it into the market, post office, etc. the way a blind person may have a seeing eye dog. Dogs are able to detect certain cancers earlier than standard medical diagnosis. These may involve their sense of smell. I haven't gotten a good scientific explanation of my dog's behavior towards the walker. It happens whether the dog is inside or out. She (the dog) seems to be getting a bit less responsive as she gets older (turned 2 in June). To re-iterate a line from Mike D. I don't know. Tom - Original Message - From: Marylynn Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 11:36 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) I've found curiosity in many things and have always enjoyed the wondering process my mind can take. Anyone who has ever lived with a pet perhaps has wondered why the animal is always waiting at the door when they have returned home. There have been many varying answers down to and including sight, scent, feelings of physical vibrations relating to how the animal knows. There was a filmed test done that was televised. This test was repeated many times with many different people and their animals. Basically, the human was taken away by a controller .. This controller made all the decisions as to where they went, how long they stayed out, the route and method of returning home. This was filmed by a 3rd person with a camcorder. At the house, a second camcorder had been set up that gave a fairly wide view of the room and the approach to the front door. What the film showed was the animal sleeping, eating, drinking from it's water bowl .. doing what our animals do when we are not at home. At the exact moment (side by side timers on the 2 separate camcorders) when the controller announced that now we are going home, the animal would get up and go and sit by the front door. Now I can imagine that someone could very well be jumping up and down screaming that that isn't science .. and if that were to happen, I could only speculate that they would be missing a vital portion of what life has to offer. Shortly after the massive tsunami left thousands dead and lying on the beaches one of the things that was noted and announced but with very little (if any) follow up was the fact that there were no bodies of the wild animals .. and very few stray animals were found .. nor was there any harm done to those peoples who lived and followed their tribal ways .. these people had started moving inland and to higher ground as much as a week in advanced. Reliable conclusions have existed through out our existence. That is the reason we survived. Those that reached unreliable conclusions can be counted among the extinct. I have had the honor of knowing an individual who was given the technical writing job(s) of projects far beyond any technical writing abilities he had. He was given the jobs with unreasonable time frames and
