Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...
Mike Weaver wrote: There is an old old ranch house in the extended family with a Swastika on one of the walls - it way predates Hitler and I was told it came from a Native American artist. The light posts in my home town are adorned in swastikas to this day. I had to take a photo in order to prove it, because people up here thought it wasn't true! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...
Hallo Michael, Again, as I said to you privately, sorry to take so long to answer this. Things have been somewhat difficult in many different areas here and I have not been able to attend to this until now. And my mail was meant to point out what I have witnessed in the past and was not aimed at you or yours in any manner. Sunday, 16 April, 2006, 19:35:57, you wrote: MR Hallo Gustl, MR Well, after participating in peaceful protests for the past three MR or four years in Connecticut and New York, I have to strongly MR disagree with you assessment. MR Neither me or anyone of my brothers and sisters demonstrating with MR me would see any gain in becoming violent. Ironically, it's for MR the reasons you mention that violence is not part of the strategy. MR Every intervention I've participated in ended in outnumbering and MR embarrassing our opponents by singing, chanting and leafleting (if MR permitted) and generally exposing them and the twisted MR interpretation of the issues they represent. You misunderstand me perhaps. This was a general statement of what I have witnessed in the past, quite recent past as concerns Toledo, and not about you and yours at all. MR If you want to know who's violent, follow the rhetoric and pay MR close attention to those provoking violent conflict. If you want MR to know who's interested in social change through peaceful MR demonstrations, follow the picket signs, leaflets and leaders of MR those who believe in the power of public consensus. Yes, pay attention to who is provoking violent conflict, but rhetoric is not what provokes folks to violence. We are free, in this land of liberty and freedom (sarcasm here), to say anything we want, call anyone anything we want, so long as we don't urge people to do violence or break the law.People lacking self-discipline, self-restraint and acting irresponsibly may initiate violent acts, but it was not generally the rhetoric which incited the violence. Most folks going to these things generally have a certain mindset and when the people at the podium start speaking they follow that mindset. Then, when all is said and done and the violence has happened they say something like, Well, I was only there to listen but then they said, (place the magic word or phrase here), and I just COULDN'T let them get away with saying that. Why not? Hot air is still just hot air. MR The agitators ARE NOT PEACEFUL demonstrators who oppose war and MR racism. However, if I get attacked by a NAZI (for example), that MR person can expect an effective self defense. The agitators can only agitate those willing to be agitated brother. I have watched these neo-Nazi gatherings and the Nazi's stand up there and spout their stuff and stand around like little wooden soldiers and then are generally attacked by some of those in the listening crowd which gives the Nazi's the absolute right to say that they were only defending themselves. I have seen half a dozen of these gatherings personally and it has ALWAYS been the Nazi's who have been attacked in the first place. All they were doing was exercising their right to peaceful assembly and free speech no matter how odious we may consider the speech to be. It is not just the people with whom we agree who have the right to assemble and speak. What kind of weak minded person would allow the speech of another to cause them to do violence and then offer up the excuse of being provoked by the others words, particularly when they were not forced to be at that place and listen in the first place? It just doesn't make sense. MR The press reports the violence of PEACEFUL demonstrations, as MR represented by the authorities. MR Your wrote (not what you think): You see what those people are MR like? Just like we told you. MR We've had numerous threads on the so called main stream media. MR They are part of the problem to which the educated (liberal MR definition of educated) and conscientious should not yield. Let MR them report what they want. The opposition will use other means to MR spread the truth. Yes, unless folks are willing to be unwitting or willing tools. MR You wrote: The smart thing to do would be to give the Nazis their MR permit and allow them their little march and stay away from them MR and ignore them MR I find this surprising from you Gustl. It's precisely how people MR responded to Mein Kampf, Hitlers rant at the Hoffbrau Haus and MR what finally lead to Kristallnacht and the rise of the Nazi party. Mike, when I went into the military I was chosen to be placed in a field which required a background check for a security clearance which required access to certain material. I nearly didn't get the clearance because a shirt-tailrelation in Germany was an SS-Brigadeführer and commanded a division in
Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...
Wow Gustl!That was quite a comprehensive response. I see logic and reason in all of it and I agree with nearly all of it.You mentioned Mein Kampf. To my knowledge, I had at least one distant relative executed by the Nazis (he was German and not Jewish) and another who hid a Jewuntil the end of the war (They later married). My strong dislike of Nazism and the ignorance of some who wear the hackenkreuz without fully understanding what it means, is very disturbing. I only read the first 300 pages of the book (my paperback copy) before losing interest and becoming disgusted with the 600+ page rant which (IMO) just recycled the same crap over and over again. Jews, Czechs, Poles, bla, bla bla. He hated everyone!You wrote: "The United States cannot be compared to post WWI Germany in any way."...in any way? I think that the Weimar Republic was an earlyredistribution of power for which the powerful (or those with ambitions of being powerful)did not stand. Although the events at the end of the Weimar republicdoes not exactly match our own,the US government actively seeks ways to keep downpublic participation in a true democracy. I concede that the similarities end there.MikeGustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hallo Michael,Again, as I said to you privately, sorry to take so long to answerthis. Things have been somewhat difficult in many different areashere and I have not been able to attend to this until now. And mymail was meant to point out what I have witnessed in the past and wasnot aimed at you or yours in any manner.Sunday, 16 April, 2006, 19:35:57, you wrote:MR Hallo Gustl,MR Well, after participating in peaceful protests for the past threeMR or four years in Connecticut and New York, I have to stronglyMR disagree with you assessment.MR Neither me or anyone of my brothers and sisters demonstrating withMR me would see any gain in becoming violent. Ironically, it's forMR the reasons you mention that violence is not part of the strategy.MR Every intervention I've participated in ended in outnumbering andMR embarrassing our opponents by singing, chanting and leafleting (ifMR permitted) and generally exposing them and the twistedMR interpretation of the issues they represent.You misunderstand me perhaps. This was a general statement of what Ihave witnessed in the past, quite recent past as concerns Toledo, andnot about you and yours at all.MR If you want to know who's violent, follow the rhetoric and payMR close attention to those provoking violent conflict. If you wantMR to know who's interested in social change through peacefulMR demonstrations, follow the picket signs, leaflets and leaders ofMR those who believe in the power of public consensus.Yes, pay attention to who is provoking violent conflict, but rhetoricis not what provokes folks to violence. We are free, in this land ofliberty and freedom (sarcasm here), to say anything we want, callanyone anything we want, so long as we don't urge people to doviolence or break the law. People lacking self-discipline,self-restraint and acting irresponsibly may initiate violent acts, butit was not generally the rhetoric which incited the violence. Mostfolks going to these things generally have a certain mindset and whenthe people at the podium start speaking they follow that mindset.Then, when all is said and done and the violence has happened they saysomething like, "Well, I was only there to listen but then they said,(place the magic word or phrase here), and I just COULDN'T let themget away with saying that." Why not? Hot air is still just hot air.MR The agitators ARE NOT PEACEFUL demonstrators who oppose war andMR racism. However, if I get attacked by a NAZI (for example), thatMR person can expect an effective self defense.The agitators can only agitate those willing to be agitated brother.I have watched these neo-Nazi gatherings and the Nazi's stand up thereand spout their stuff and stand around like little wooden soldiers andthen are generally attacked by some of those in the listening crowdwhich gives the Nazi's the absolute right to say that they were onlydefending themselves. I have seen half a dozen of these gatheringspersonally and it has ALWAYS been the Nazi's who have been attacked inthe first place. All they were doing was exercising their right topeaceful assembly and free speech no matter how odious we may considerthe speech to be. It is not just the people with whom we agree whohave the right to assemble and speak.What kind of weak minded person would allow the speech of another to"cause" them to do violence and then offer up the excuse of beingprovoked by the others words, particularly when they were not forcedto be at that place and listen in the first place? It just doesn'tmake sense.MR The press "reports" the violence of PEACEFUL demonstrations, asMR represented by the "authorities".MR Your wrote (not what you think): "You see what those people areMR like? Just like we told you."MR We've had numerous
Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...
Hallo Mike, Saturday, 22 April, 2006, 11:14:02, you wrote: MR Wow Gustl! MR That was quite a comprehensive response. I see logic and reason in MR all of it and I agree with nearly all of it. Thank you. I try. Sometimes it works and sometimes not, but I do try. MR You mentioned Mein Kampf. To my knowledge, I had at least one MR distant relative executed by the Nazis (he was German and not MR Jewish) and another who hid a Jew until the end of the war (They MR later married). My strong dislike of Nazism and the ignorance of MR some who wear the hackenkreuz without fully understanding what it MR means, is very disturbing. I only read the first 300 pages of the MR book (my paperback copy) before losing interest and becoming MR disgusted with the 600+ page rant which (IMO) just recycled the MR same crap over and over again. Jews, Czechs, Poles, bla, bla bla. MR He hated everyone! This is something we could spend a long time on but it isn't worth the trouble. I personally have a strong dislike of all governments while understanding the need for them given our evolution as a society (worldwide, not just the US). Hitler certainly had a lot more to say about the Slavs than he did of the Jews and held a lot more hate for the Slavs. If the notion ever strikes you read a lot of Mircea Eliade, Joseph Cambell, Carl Jung and some Heinrich Zimmer just for drill and then keeping what you have learned in mind find and read The Young Hitler I Knew by August Kubizek and then re-read Mein Kampf and see what you come up with. I think you will be surprised how differently you look at things, but perhaps not. It won't justify Hitler and what he did but it will give you an understanding of how his mind worked and why he did what he did if you can remain dispassionate which is not easy to do. And a note about the swastika. It has been a positive religious symbol for millenia and it is a shame that we in the west have let the misuse of this symbol taint our way of thinking about it. It is still in wide use in the east as a respected religious symbol and it pops up in places one would not think it would be if their only experience with it is during the Hitlerzeit. There is a swastika border around the walls of the supreme court and there are swastikas in ancient temples in Israel. The swastika is the innocent victim of willful misuse and should not suffer because of that. It was also the first Christian symbol called the crux gammada and it symbolized the trinity. MR You wrote: The United States cannot be compared to post WWI MR Germany in any way. MR ...in any way? I think that the Weimar Republic was an early MR redistribution of power for which the powerful (or those with MR ambitions of being powerful) did not stand. Although the events at MR the end of the Weimar republic does not exactly match our own, the MR US government actively seeks ways to keep down public MR participation in a true democracy. I concede that the similarities MR end there. I believe I will stick by my statement for the most part. All governments do what you suggest. I have no argument there. But I would compare the Weimar Republic more to the situation of and government of Iraq. It was/is an imposed system from a foreign conqueror in both cases. Germany had the Kaiser and Iraq Sadaam and both had just lost a war. Just as in post war Germany there are warring factions which like neither the government nor each other and there is civil strife and unrest and war. We will have to hide and watch to see if Iraq ends up like Weimar. Good talking with you brother. Again, I apologize for the necessity of my late reply. Happy Happy, Gustl MR Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MR Hallo Michael, MR Again, as I said to you privately, sorry to take so long to answer MR this. Things have been somewhat difficult in many different areas MR here and I have not been able to attend to this until now. And my MR mail was meant to point out what I have witnessed in the past and was MR not aimed at you or yours in any manner. MR Sunday, 16 April, 2006, 19:35:57, you wrote: MR Hallo Gustl, MR Well, after participating in peaceful protests for the past three MR or four years in Connecticut and New York, I have to strongly MR disagree with you assessment. MR Neither me or anyone of my brothers and sisters demonstrating with MR me would see any gain in becoming violent. Ironically, it's for MR the reasons you mention that violence is not part of the strategy. MR Every intervention I've participated in ended in outnumbering and MR embarrassing our opponents by singing, chanting and leafleting (if MR permitted) and generally exposing them and the twisted MR interpretation of the issues they represent. MR You misunderstand me perhaps. This was a general statement of what I MR
Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...
There is an old old ranch house in the extended family with a Swastika on one of the walls - it way predates Hitler and I was told it came from a Native American artist. Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote: Hallo Mike, Saturday, 22 April, 2006, 11:14:02, you wrote: MR Wow Gustl! MR That was quite a comprehensive response. I see logic and reason in MR all of it and I agree with nearly all of it. Thank you. I try. Sometimes it works and sometimes not, but I do try. MR You mentioned Mein Kampf. To my knowledge, I had at least one MR distant relative executed by the Nazis (he was German and not MR Jewish) and another who hid a Jew until the end of the war (They MR later married). My strong dislike of Nazism and the ignorance of MR some who wear the hackenkreuz without fully understanding what it MR means, is very disturbing. I only read the first 300 pages of the MR book (my paperback copy) before losing interest and becoming MR disgusted with the 600+ page rant which (IMO) just recycled the MR same crap over and over again. Jews, Czechs, Poles, bla, bla bla. MR He hated everyone! This is something we could spend a long time on but it isn't worth the trouble. I personally have a strong dislike of all governments while understanding the need for them given our evolution as a society (worldwide, not just the US). Hitler certainly had a lot more to say about the Slavs than he did of the Jews and held a lot more hate for the Slavs. If the notion ever strikes you read a lot of Mircea Eliade, Joseph Cambell, Carl Jung and some Heinrich Zimmer just for drill and then keeping what you have learned in mind find and read The Young Hitler I Knew by August Kubizek and then re-read Mein Kampf and see what you come up with. I think you will be surprised how differently you look at things, but perhaps not. It won't justify Hitler and what he did but it will give you an understanding of how his mind worked and why he did what he did if you can remain dispassionate which is not easy to do. And a note about the swastika. It has been a positive religious symbol for millenia and it is a shame that we in the west have let the misuse of this symbol taint our way of thinking about it. It is still in wide use in the east as a respected religious symbol and it pops up in places one would not think it would be if their only experience with it is during the Hitlerzeit. There is a swastika border around the walls of the supreme court and there are swastikas in ancient temples in Israel. The swastika is the innocent victim of willful misuse and should not suffer because of that. It was also the first Christian symbol called the crux gammada and it symbolized the trinity. MR You wrote: The United States cannot be compared to post WWI MR Germany in any way. MR ...in any way? I think that the Weimar Republic was an early MR redistribution of power for which the powerful (or those with MR ambitions of being powerful) did not stand. Although the events at MR the end of the Weimar republic does not exactly match our own, the MR US government actively seeks ways to keep down public MR participation in a true democracy. I concede that the similarities MR end there. I believe I will stick by my statement for the most part. All governments do what you suggest. I have no argument there. But I would compare the Weimar Republic more to the situation of and government of Iraq. It was/is an imposed system from a foreign conqueror in both cases. Germany had the Kaiser and Iraq Sadaam and both had just lost a war. Just as in post war Germany there are warring factions which like neither the government nor each other and there is civil strife and unrest and war. We will have to hide and watch to see if Iraq ends up like Weimar. Good talking with you brother. Again, I apologize for the necessity of my late reply. Happy Happy, Gustl MR Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MR Hallo Michael, MR Again, as I said to you privately, sorry to take so long to answer MR this. Things have been somewhat difficult in many different areas MR here and I have not been able to attend to this until now. And my MR mail was meant to point out what I have witnessed in the past and was MR not aimed at you or yours in any manner. MR Sunday, 16 April, 2006, 19:35:57, you wrote: MR Hallo Gustl, MR Well, after participating in peaceful protests for the past three MR or four years in Connecticut and New York, I have to strongly MR disagree with you assessment. MR Neither me or anyone of my brothers and sisters demonstrating with MR me would see any gain in becoming violent. Ironically, it's for MR the reasons you mention that violence is not part of the strategy. MR Every intervention I've participated in ended in outnumbering and MR embarrassing our opponents by singing,
Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...
"The swastika was also used as an early symbol by the Boy Scouts in Britain, and worldwide. According to "Johnny" Walker, [3] the earliest Scouting use was on the first Thanks Badge introduced in 1911. Lord Baden-Powell's 1922 Medal of Merit design added a swastika to the Scout fleur-de-lis as good luck to the person receiving the medal. Like Rudyard Kipling, he would have come across this symbol in India. During 1934, many Scouters requested a change of design because of the use of the swastika by the National Socialist German Workers Party. A new British Medal of Merit was issued in 1935." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScoutingMike Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:There is an old old ranch house in the extended family with a Swastika on one of the walls - it way predates Hitler and I was told it came from a Native American artist.Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote:Hallo Mike,Saturday, 22 April, 2006, 11:14:02, you wrote:MR Wow Gustl! MR That was quite a comprehensive response. I see logic and reason inMR all of it and I agree with nearly all of it.Thank you. I try. Sometimes it works and sometimes not, but I dotry.MR You mentioned Mein Kampf. To my knowledge, I had at least oneMR distant relative executed by the Nazis (he was German and notMR Jewish) and another who hid a Jew until the end of the war (TheyMR later married). My strong dislike of Nazism and the ignorance ofMR some who wear the hackenkreuz without fully understanding what itMR means, is very disturbing. I only read the first 300 pages of theMR book (my paperback copy) before losing interest and becomingMR disgusted with the 600+ page rant which (IMO) just recycled theMR same crap over and over again. Jews, Czechs, Poles, bla, bla bla.MR He hated everyone!This is something we could spend a long time on but it isn't worth thetrouble. I personally have a strong dislike of all governments whileunderstanding the need for them given our evolution as a society(worldwide, not just the US). Hitler certainly had a lot more to sayabout the Slavs than he did of the Jews and held a lot more hate forthe Slavs. If the notion ever strikes you read a lot of MirceaEliade, Joseph Cambell, Carl Jung and some Heinrich Zimmer just fordrill and then keeping what you have learned in mind find and read"The Young Hitler I Knew" by August Kubizek and then re-read MeinKampf and see what you come up with. I think you will be surprisedhow differently you look at things, but perhaps not. It won't justifyHitler and what he did but it will give you an understanding of howhis mind worked and why he did what he did if you can remaindispassionate which is not easy to do.And a note about the swastika. It has been a positive religioussymbol for millenia and it is a shame that we in the west have let themisuse of this symbol taint our way of thinking about it. It is stillin wide use in the east as a respected religious symbol and it pops upin places one would not think it would be if their only experiencewith it is during the Hitlerzeit. There is a swastika border aroundthe walls of the supreme court and there are swastikas in ancienttemples in Israel. The swastika is the innocent victim of willfulmisuse and should not suffer because of that. It was also the firstChristian symbol called the crux gammada and it symbolized thetrinity.MR You wrote: "The United States cannot be compared to post WWIMR Germany in any way." MR ...in any way? I think that the Weimar Republic was an earlyMR redistribution of power for which the powerful (or those withMR ambitions of being powerful) did not stand. Although the events atMR the end of the Weimar republic does not exactly match our own, theMR US government actively seeks ways to keep down publicMR participation in a true democracy. I concede that the similaritiesMR end there. I believe I will stick by my statement for the most part. Allgovernments do what you suggest. I have no argument there. But I wouldcompare the Weimar Republic more to the situation of and government ofIraq. It was/is an imposed system from a foreign conqueror in bothcases. Germany had the Kaiser and Iraq Sadaam and both had just lost awar. Just as in post war Germany there are warring factions which likeneither the government nor each other and there is civil strife andunrest and war. We will have to hide and watch to see if Iraq ends uplike Weimar.Good talking with you brother. Again, I apologize for the necessityof my late reply. Happy Happy,Gustl<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [snip]___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...
Hallo Gustl,Well, after participating in peaceful protests for the past three or four years in Connecticut and New York, I have to strongly disagree with you assessment.Neither me or anyone of my brothers and sisters demonstrating with me would see any gain inbecoming violent. Ironically, it's for the reasons you mention that violence is not part of thestrategy.Every intervention I've participated in ended in outnumbering and embarrassing our opponents by singing, chanting and leafleting (if permitted) and generally exposing themand the twisted interpretation of the issues they represent.If you want to know who's violent, follow the rhetoric and pay close attention to those provoking violent conflict. If youwant to know who's interested in social change through peaceful demonstrations, follow the picket signs, leaflets and leaders of those who believein the power of public consensus.The agitators ARE NOT PEACEFUL demonstrators who oppose war and racism. However, if I get attacked by a NAZI (for example), that person can expect an effective self defense.The press "reports" the violence of PEACEFUL demonstrations, as represented by the "authorities".Your wrote (not what you think): "You see what those people are like? Just like we told you."We've had numerous threads on the so called "main stream media". They are part of the problem to which the educated (liberal definition of "educated") and conscientious should not yield. Let them report what they want. The opposition will use other means to spread the truth. You wrote: "The smart thing to do would be to give the Nazis their permit andallow them their little march and stay away from them and ignore them"I find this surprising from you Gustl. It's precisely how peopleresponded to Mein Kampf, Hitlersrant at the Hoffbrau Haus andwhat finally lead to Kristallnachtand the rise of the Nazi party.I will persist in standing along side my friends and being heard. I will continue to do what I can for organizers with the prospect of some day becoming an organizers (if I am needed in that roll).My motivation comes from people like MLK, Gandhi, the Freedom Riders and Reverend Martin Neimoller (among others)who speak, evenfrombeyond the grave, of their experienceand whostress the importance ofNOT LEAVING THEM ALONE. Mike Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hallo Mike,Well, Toledo, Ohio is close enough to me to call it my neck of thewoods. Oddly enough so are Detroit, Ann Arbor and Lansing, Michigan.The Nazis came to Toledo and applied for their permit and held theirrally and the people who didn't like the Nazis attacked them and gavethem a boatload of publicity and gave the Nazis the chance to say,"You see what those people are like? Just like we told you."Perhaps not oddly enough I have seen "right-to-lifers" attack thosebacking abortion who turned around and said about the same thing theNazis did and have seen "peace" demonstrators attack their opponentswho repeated virtually the same line.The smart thing to do would be to give the Nazis their permit andallow them their little march and stay away from them and ignore them,but you have the idiot press covering them and reporting every burp orfart and stirring up people so they can get some "news", maybe evenmake it into the national media.I would guess that you will have the same crap there as we did here inToledo. Ten, fifteen people marching for or against something and thepress coming in and stirring up a mess because they have nothingbetter to do. After all, nothing much going on anywhere. :o/Happy Happy,Gustl[snip]___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...
Since "peaceful demonstrations" have been a lively topic lately, here's what's happening in my neck of the woods.I'll let you know how it turns out.MikeNaveen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To: Chris T [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED], Al-Awda-CT [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED]From: Naveen [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 07:33:42 -0700 (PDT)Subject: [isoinfo] Re: [CTpeace-activists] Nazis coming to Danbury Tuesday When and where is the counter demonstration?We can't dismiss these people or ignore them and wish they go away. They are organizing to recruit people for genocide. Unite and Fight the Nazis! NaveenChris T [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I believe we should act - come out in force this Tuesday. These people are not welcome here. -Chris (203) 417-3590 ---Neo-Nazis say they're coming to Danbury By Elizabeth Putnam THE NEWS-TIMES The News-Times/Wendy Carlson Local clergy members Richard Kendall, left, Frank Caporale, Bob Cutting and Greg Russo will rally on the Danbury Green Tuesday against separation of church and state.A rally calling for an end to the separation of church and state is expected to draw hundreds to downtown Danbury on Tuesday, including members of a neo-Nazi group who plan to wear swastikas on their black jackets. Minutemen United, an Ohio-based Christian organization, is holding the rally Tuesday afternoon, because "the wall between the separation of church and state must be torn down," the group's leader and founder Dave Daubenmire said Wednesday. Minutemen United expects up to 300 people at the event on the Danbury Green, but that number could increase as word of the rally spreads. Members of other organizations that advocate unity between religion and government say they plan to attend. The Grey Wolves, a Northeast-based white supremacist group loosely affiliated with the Christian Identity Movement, will bring three busloads of people to the rally, Rick Renage, Grey Wolves spokesman, said Wednesday. Renage read about the rally at NewsTimesLive.com, The News-Times' Web site, which posted information Wednesday afternoon about the event. "We just want to show our solidarity with the churches who are sponsoring this activity," Renage said. The Southern Poverty Law Center, a civil rights organization known for its battles with white supremacists and its tracking of extremist groups across the country, could not confirm whether the Grey Wolves is a hate group. Still, Frank Caporale, a non-denominational Christian from Danbury who is helping to organize the rally, told Renage not to attend. "This is not a demonstration. This is a solemn assembly," Caporale said. "This is religious, not political. I want people from all walks of life to feel comfortable attending." Renage said his group will not cause any trouble. "I, personally, am not looking for any confrontations, but if we are provoked, we will react very strongly," he said in an e-mail to The News-Times. Danbury Police Detective Lt. Tom Michael said he would have more information today about how the police department will handle the rally. The Rev. Bob Cutting, pastor of Mountain Church of God in Brookfield and member of Minutemen United, said he was not aware of the Grey Wolves' participation, but he said all are welcome as long as they do not bring signs. "It's open to the public. We just don't want any disruption," Cutting said. "This is about the separation of church and state." Dozens of church-state issues test the bounds of the First Amendment every year. There is raging debate over whether government vouchers should be used to pay for parochial school tuition and whether students can pray or study Biblical theories of man's creation in public schools. President Bush has sparked controversy over whether the government should provide funding for faith-based social service organizations. Some Christian public officials have butted heads with the courts over the posting of the Ten Commandments in government buildings. Daubenmire said he wanted to spotlight these issues and decided to hold a rally in Danbury because of the city's historical significance. After the Revolutionary War, local government still had Congregationalist preachers on the payroll. In protest, the Danbury Baptist Association wrote a letter in 1801 to then-President Thomas Jefferson asking him to help, said Bob Young, a researcher at the Danbury Historical Society who helped Daubenmire study the city's history. In response, Jefferson wrote a letter that included the phrase "wall of separation between church and state." "Jefferson's intent was never to keep God out of government," said Daubenmire, who picked Tuesday for the rally because it's the 231st anniversary of Paul Revere's famous midnight ride. Jefferson's intentions and what the Founding Fathers saw for the new nation is the subject of much debate and the topic of many books. Western
Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...
Hallo Mike, Well, Toledo, Ohio is close enough to me to call it my neck of the woods. Oddly enough so are Detroit, Ann Arbor and Lansing, Michigan. The Nazis came to Toledo and applied for their permit and held their rally and the people who didn't like the Nazis attacked them and gave them a boatload of publicity and gave the Nazis the chance to say, You see what those people are like? Just like we told you. Perhaps not oddly enough I have seen right-to-lifers attack those backing abortion who turned around and said about the same thing the Nazis did and have seen peace demonstrators attack their opponents who repeated virtually the same line. The smart thing to do would be to give the Nazis their permit and allow them their little march and stay away from them and ignore them, but you have the idiot press covering them and reporting every burp or fart and stirring up people so they can get some news, maybe even make it into the national media. I would guess that you will have the same crap there as we did here in Toledo. Ten, fifteen people marching for or against something and the press coming in and stirring up a mess because they have nothing better to do. After all, nothing much going on anywhere. :o/ Happy Happy, Gustl Friday, 14 April, 2006, 16:55:02, you wrote: MR Since peaceful demonstrations have been a lively topic lately, MR here's what's happening in my neck of the woods. MR I'll let you know how it turns out. MR Mike ...large snip of article... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
