Wow Gustl!
That was quite a comprehensive response. I see logic and reason in all of it and I agree with nearly all of it.
You mentioned Mein Kampf. To my knowledge, I had at least one distant relative executed by the Nazis (he was German and not Jewish) and another who hid a Jew until the end of the war (They later married). My strong dislike of Nazism and the ignorance of some who wear the hackenkreuz without fully understanding what it means, is very disturbing. I only read the first 300 pages of the book (my paperback copy) before losing interest and becoming disgusted with the 600+ page rant which (IMO) just recycled the same crap over and over again. Jews, Czechs, Poles, bla, bla bla. He hated everyone!
You wrote: "The United States cannot be compared to post WWI Germany in any way."
...in any way? I think that the
Weimar Republic was an early redistribution of power for which the powerful (or those with ambitions of being powerful) did not stand. Although the events at the end of the Weimar republic does not exactly match our own, the US government actively seeks ways to keep down public participation in a true democracy. I concede that the similarities end there.
Mike
Gustl Steiner-Zehender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hallo Michael,
Again, as I said to you privately, sorry to take so long to answer
this. Things have been somewhat difficult in many different areas
here and I have not been able to attend to this until now. And my
mail was meant to point out what I have witnessed in the past and was
not aimed at you or yours in any manner.
Sunday, 16 April, 2006, 19:35:57, you wrote:
MR> Hallo Gustl,
MR> Well, after participating in peaceful protests for the past three
MR> or four years in Connecticut and New York, I have to strongly
MR> disagree with you assessment.
MR> Neither me or anyone of my brothers and sisters demonstrating with
MR> me would see any gain in becoming violent. Ironically, it's for
MR> the reasons you mention that violence is not part of the strategy.
MR> Every intervention I've participated in ended in outnumbering and
MR> embarrassing our opponents by singing, chanting and leafleting (if
MR> permitted) and generally exposing them and the twisted
MR> interpretation of the issues they represent.
You misunderstand me perhaps. This was a general statement of what I
have witnessed in the past, quite recent past as concerns Toledo, and
not about you and yours at all.
MR> If you want to know who's violent, follow the rhetoric and pay
MR> close attention to those provoking violent conflict. If you want
MR> to know who's interested in social change through peaceful
MR> demonstrations, follow the picket signs, leaflets and leaders of
MR> those who believe in the power of public consensus.
Yes, pay attention to who is provoking violent conflict, but rhetoric
is not what provokes folks to violence. We are free, in this land of
liberty and freedom (sarcasm here), to say anything we want, call
anyone anything we want, so long as we don't urge people to do
violence or break the law. People lacking self-discipline,
self-restraint and acting irresponsibly may initiate violent acts, but
it was not generally the rhetoric which incited the violence. Most
folks going to these things generally have a certain mindset and when
the people at the podium start speaking they follow that mindset.
Then, when all is said and done and the violence has happened they say
something like, "Well, I was only there to listen but then they said,
(place the magic word or phrase here), and I just COULDN'T let them
get away with saying that." Why not? Hot air is still just hot air.
MR> The agitators ARE NOT PEACEFUL demonstrators who oppose war and
MR> racism. However, if I get attacked by a NAZI (for example), that
MR> person can expect an effective self defense.
The agitators can only agitate those willing to be agitated brother.
I have watched these neo-Nazi gatherings and the Nazi's stand up there
and spout their stuff and stand around like little wooden soldiers and
then are generally attacked by some of those in the listening crowd
which gives the Nazi's the absolute right to say that they were only
defending themselves. I have seen half a dozen of these gatherings
personally and it has ALWAYS been the Nazi's who have been attacked in
the first place. All they were doing was exercising their right to
peaceful assembly and free speech no matter how odious we may consider
the speech to be. It is not just the people with whom we agree who
have the right to assemble and speak.
What kind of weak minded person would allow the speech of another to
"cause" them to do violence and then offer up the excuse of being
provoked by the others words, particularly when they were not forced
to be at that place and listen in the first place? It just doesn't
make sense.
MR> The press "reports" the violence of PEACEFUL demonstrations, as
MR> represented by the "authorities".
MR> Your wrote (not what you think): "You see what those people are
MR> like? Just like we told you."
MR> We've had numerous threads on the so called "main stream media".
MR> They are part of the problem to which the educated (liberal
MR> definition of "educated") and conscientious should not yield. Let
MR> them report what they want. The opposition will use other means to
MR> spread the truth.
Yes, unless folks are willing to be unwitting or willing tools.
MR> You wrote: "The smart thing to do would be to give the Nazis their
MR> permit and allow them their little march and stay away from them
MR> and ignore them"
MR> I find this surprising from you Gustl. It's precisely how people
MR> responded to Mein Kampf, Hitlers rant at the Hoffbrau Haus and
MR> what finally lead to Kristallnacht and the rise of the Nazi party.
Mike, when I went into the military I was chosen to be placed in a
field which required a background check for a security clearance which
required access to certain material. I nearly didn't get the
clearance because a shirt-tail relation in Germany was an
SS-Brigadeführer and commanded a division in Hungary. The only reason
I got the clearance is because his entire division was wiped out by
the Soviets before I was born and both my father and step-father had
served in the Army during the war. This was in 1962. Seventeen years
after the end of the war.
I asked my Oma about this relative and she told me he was a "really
nice guy" but she hadn't seen him or had any contact with him since
she had come to this country when she was 12. Having a curious nature
I began a pretty intensive study of history to see what these folks
were all about, why the war happened in the first place and what had
happened since. Now I'm not sure how anyone else analyzes their data,
but I attempt (and am generally successful) to do so with an open mind
and without prejudice one way or the other and draw my conclusions
from that analysis while remaining open to new evidence.
The United States cannot be compared to post WWI Germany in any way.
The conditions here do not correspond to those in Germany at that time
and making comparisons based on that data will and does lead to false
conclusions. Apples and oranges brother.
MR> I will persist in standing along side my friends and being heard.
MR> I will continue to do what I can for organizers with the prospect
MR> of some day becoming an organizers (if I am needed in that roll).
Peace would be better served by holding a peaceful rally away from the
location of the Nazi's and drawing as many folks as possible to that
rally which emphasizes positive and peaceful action rather than giving
attention to the negative vibes coming from those others.
MR> My motivation comes from people like MLK, Gandhi, the Freedom
MR> Riders and Reverend Martin Neimoller (among others) who speak,
MR> even from beyond the grave, of their experience and who stress the
MR> importance of NOT LEAVING THEM ALONE.
But of whom are you speaking here? Responsible, restrained,
disciplined and peaceful people and organizations which would not be
provoked to return violence for violence. No hate speech coming from
their mouths. No returning tit for tat. They just kept coming and
turning the other cheek until their goals had been peacefully reached.
I have a sheet of paper on my cork board in fron of my desk on which I
have copied from somewhere (those not liking references to God please
stop reading):
"What does it do for the human soul? Does it bring God to man and man
to God?"
"Never hesitate to embrace truth no matter where it appears to come
from."
"Be positive in your exhortations. Do not emphasize evil by forbidding
it."
This seems to me to be good advice. For the first proposition folks
could replace "God" and "soul" with something which suits their
particular system of belief or philosophy (if it is peaceful and
positive) and it still works.
For the second proposition read the Koran or Das Kapital or Mein Kampf
and you will find truth there as well. Pick the flowers out of the
manure and leave the manure lay. The same goes for the Old and New
Testament of the Christian scriptures. If one can only find flowers
and no manure there then one does not comprehend completely what they
read. It also probably means that they lack faith and have a need for
the concrete assurances of a signed contract which can be upheld by
law. Sad.
As concerns the third proposition, the carrot is always better than
the stick. The stick may bring about the desired results sooner, but
it also brings with it resentment and the possibility of the stick
changing hands and being used on oneself.
Anyhow brother, this is what I meant in my mail. I hope this mail
better suits than the last one. Clarity and understanding are
important. You may not agree with me, but that is fine with me as
well. We need not agree on everything to be friends. Disagreement
and debate definitely has its place. If it does nothing else it
causes one to examine their own position and gives them the
opportunity to adjust themselves to be in accord with what is right
and true if they are shown to be lacking or to show them that they are
headed in the right direction. We should welcome honest debate and
criticism from any direction. It is or can be a very helpful tool.
Take care brother. Stay well and happy.
Happy Happy,
Gustl
[snip]
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