subject:"\[Biofuel\] Fw\: Car runs on water"




Hi Jason and Katie...thanks 
for writing.  Are you new to the area?  Haven't ever heard anyone talk 
about their "township" or "land taxes."  Have lived in the area pretty much 
all of my life, except for brief time in England in the service and many years 
later for a couple of years in Charlotte, North Carolina.  Anyway, good to 
know JtF folks close by.  Mike DuPree
 
- Original Message - 
From: "Jason& Katie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 6:47 
PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on 
water and Other Nonsense
> aye, i read your post, and i live between 
Gladstone and NKC. not exactly > sure what township this is, but i rent, 
so land taxes arent a problem.> - Original Message - > 
From: "M&K DuPree" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:58 PM> Subject: Re: 
[Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense> > >> 
LOL...amen brother...have to use the whole coin.  The List is helping me 
>> do>> so.  I've also printed out and am keeping in 
front of the Credo for JtF.>> Also keeping on my desktop a shortcut to 
the words of the song and the >> song>> itself.  
Ok...so now more fatheadedness...what is "Namaste"?  Also, I 
want>> to be sure Jason and Weaver read my post to Jesse that included 
my>> excitement about the three of us either living near or having 
ties near>> where each of us live.  Any suggestions?  
Thanks.  Mike D>>>> ----- Original Message - 
>> From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>> To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:13 PM>> Subject: 
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other 
Nonsense>>>>>>> >Hi Keith...and List...thank 
you.  I had read, but forgotten (shame>>>>on me), the Credo 
before I asked to join.  It gave me the confidence>>>>to 
ask to join.  Wonderful to be reminded of, wake up with and 
read>>>>this morning.  Is that sunshine I see peaking 
through the clouds?!!!>>>>Getting ready to Look on the Bright 
Side of LIFE!!!  Mike DuPree>>>>>> Hey Mike, you 
just made my day. Not only it helped but you read it >>> 
before.>>> :-)>>>>>> You mean that crazy 
song actually works?? LOL!>>>>>> This thread has 
covered a lot of ground from where it started to>>> where it is 
now. Interesting. Interesting last few posts from you>>> too, and 
nicely put, both sides of the coin, the bright and the dark.>>> One 
side of a coin doesn't buy you much, does it, you have to use 
the>>> whole coin.>>>>>> 
Namaste.>>>>>> 
Keith>>>>>>>>>>- Original Message 
->>>>From: "Keith 
Addison">>>><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>>>>To: <<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>>>>Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 
2:38 AM>>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and 
Other Nonsense>>>>>>>> > Hi 
Mike>>>> >>>>> >>- Original Message 
->>>> >>From:>>>><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mark>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mark>>>>manchester>>>> 
>>To:>>>><<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>mai>>>>lto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>>> 
>>Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:22 PM>>>> 
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other 
Nonsense>>>> >>>>>> >>Hi 
Jesse...thanks for writing. You wrote: This is surely the 
most>>>> >>depressing post I've ever seen.  A sign of 
the times???  You>>>> >>wrote: Mike!  What sort 
of response were you thinking you'd get?  I>>>> 
>>wasn't thinking, at least about what response I might get.  I 
felt>>>> >>frustrated, perhaps mostly by my own 
illusions.  You wrote: How can>>>> >>anyone respond 
to this.  One way is how you have responded. You>>>> 
>>wrote:  No dream no agriculture no biodiesel no...  
simple>>>> >>answer.  It depends on the 
question.  For me in my post the question>>>> >>deals 
with how do I personally deal with the madness on the>>>> 
>>planet that appears to be becoming more so everyday.  Biodiesel is 
a>>>

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense

Thanks Keith...very respectful.  Thank you.  Mike DuPree

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense


> >LOL...amen brother...have to use the whole coin.  The List is helping me 
> >do
>>so.  I've also printed out and am keeping in front of the Credo for JtF.
>>Also keeping on my desktop a shortcut to the words of the song and the 
>>song
>>itself.
>
> Golly, Mike. I do hope it helps.
>
>>Ok...so now more fatheadedness...what is "Namaste"?
>
> Literally "I bow to you." Other people say it here too.
>
> I've said "O kage samade" here a couple of times. It's because
> smileys don't do Japanese bows. It means "Thankyou", a certain kind
> of thankyou, literally: "In your shadow I thrive."
>
> I have some reservations about the following, on Namaste. For one
> thing, I don't think India or the East have a sole franchise on
> spiritual wisdom any more than "the West" has a sole franchise on
> crass materialism.
>
> But it explains what Namaste means. Its use seems to be spreading on
> the Internet, and elsewhere. A useful addition, IMHO.
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> Copyright 1993 by Himalayan Academy.
>
> "Shake hands  and  come out fighting."  It's the referee's
> final counsel to two pugilists about to beat each other's
> brains out with clenched fists.  Even outside the ring, a
> handshake can be  a little off-putting.  When one returns
> to  the  West  from  an  extended  sojourn  in  Bharat or
> elsewhere  in  Asia, the hand suddenly thrust forward can
> seem more ominous than friendly, especially  if  the hand
> offered is that  of  a  stranger.  Of  course,  one  soon
> acclimates and the menacing aspect of this salutation subsides.
>
> Perhaps that  moment of intimidation derives  from the history of
> the  handshake. According  to one  anthropologist, the  handshake
> evolved in medieval Europe, during the times of knights. It seems
> not all were laudable Lancelots or gallant Gallahads. More than a
> few  would approach  opponents  with  concealed weapons  and when
> within  striking  distance  do  the  needful,  driving  dagger or
> striking sword into the unguarded paladin.
>
> To  fend off  the fear  of  a  foe's foul  foil, knights  took to
> offering their open and visibly empty  hand to each other. It was
> a kind  of surety,  a gesture  of trust  which said,  "See, I  am
> unarmed, so you  may safely let me approach."  As the story goes,
> soon the gesture itself took on  meaning and the less noble, less
> lethal man on the street adopted  the handshake as the proper way
> to greet others.
>
> In much of  the world today, people do not  shake hands when they
> meet. They may hug formally or  kiss one another on the cheek, as
> in  eastern Europe  and Arab  states. They  may bow  softly, eyes
> turned  to  the  ground,  as  in  Japan  and  China. The Hawaiian
> greeting, termed  "honi," consists of placing  the nostril gently
> beside that of  the person greeted, a kind  of sharing of breath,
> which is life and Pran(a).
>
> For, Hindu(s),  of course, the  greeting of choice  is "Namaste,"
> the two hands  pressed together and held near  the heart with the
> head  gently bowed  as one  says, "Namaste."  Thus it  is both  a
> spoken  greeting and  a gesture,  a Mantr(a)  and a  Mudr(a). The
> prayerful hand position is a Mudr(a) called Anjali, from the root
> Anj, "to  adorn, honor, celebrate  or anoint." The  hands held in
> union  signify  the  oneness  of  an  apparently dual cosmos, the
> bringing together of  spirit and matter, or the  self meeting the
> Self. It has been said that  the right hand represents the higher
> nature  or  that  which  is  divine  in  us,  while the left hand
> represents the lower, worldly nature.
>
> In   Sanskrit   "Namas"   means,   "bow,  obeisance,  reverential
> salutation." It  comes from the root  Nam, which carries meanings
> of bending,  bowing, humbly submitting and  becoming silent. "Te"
> means "to you."  Thus "namaste" means "I bow to  you." the act of
> greeting  is called  "Namaskaram," "Namaskara"  and "Namaskar" in
> the varied languages of the subcontinent.
>
> Namaste has become a veritable icon of what is Bharatiye. Indeed,
> there  must  be  a  Bharatiye  law  which  requires  every travel
> brochure. calendar and poster to include an image of someone with
> p

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense

2006-05-21 Thread Jason& Katie

aye, i read your post, and i live between Gladstone and NKC. not exactly 
sure what township this is, but i rent, so land taxes arent a problem.
- Original Message - 
From: "M&K DuPree" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense


> LOL...amen brother...have to use the whole coin.  The List is helping me 
> do
> so.  I've also printed out and am keeping in front of the Credo for JtF.
> Also keeping on my desktop a shortcut to the words of the song and the 
> song
> itself.  Ok...so now more fatheadedness...what is "Namaste"?  Also, I want
> to be sure Jason and Weaver read my post to Jesse that included my
> excitement about the three of us either living near or having ties near
> where each of us live.  Any suggestions?  Thanks.  Mike D
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
>
>
>> >Hi Keith...and List...thank you.  I had read, but forgotten (shame
>>>on me), the Credo before I asked to join.  It gave me the confidence
>>>to ask to join.  Wonderful to be reminded of, wake up with and read
>>>this morning.  Is that sunshine I see peaking through the clouds?!!!
>>>Getting ready to Look on the Bright Side of LIFE!!!  Mike DuPree
>>
>> Hey Mike, you just made my day. Not only it helped but you read it 
>> before.
>> :-)
>>
>> You mean that crazy song actually works?? LOL!
>>
>> This thread has covered a lot of ground from where it started to
>> where it is now. Interesting. Interesting last few posts from you
>> too, and nicely put, both sides of the coin, the bright and the dark.
>> One side of a coin doesn't buy you much, does it, you have to use the
>> whole coin.
>>
>> Namaste.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>>
>>>- Original Message -
>>>From: "Keith Addison"
>>><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: <<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>>>Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:38 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
>>>
>>> > Hi Mike
>>> >
>>> >>- Original Message -
>>> >>From:
>>><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mark>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mark
>>>manchester
>>> >>To:
>>><<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>mai
>>>lto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>> >>Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:22 PM
>>> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
>>> >>
>>> >>Hi Jesse...thanks for writing. You wrote: This is surely the most
>>> >>depressing post I've ever seen.  A sign of the times???  You
>>> >>wrote: Mike!  What sort of response were you thinking you'd get?  I
>>> >>wasn't thinking, at least about what response I might get.  I felt
>>> >>frustrated, perhaps mostly by my own illusions.  You wrote: How can
>>> >>anyone respond to this.  One way is how you have responded. You
>>> >>wrote:  No dream no agriculture no biodiesel no...  simple
>>> >>answer.  It depends on the question.  For me in my post the question
>>> >>deals with how do I personally deal with the madness on the
>>> >>planet that appears to be becoming more so everyday.  Biodiesel is a
>>> >>way.  And I'm excited to see it develop.  But I feel overwhelmed by
>>> >>something much bigger.  I could call it Big Energy, Big Gov't.  Big
>>> >>whatever.  But I'm afraid it has something more to do with me than
>>> >>with anything outside of me.  But then it's not just me...it's the
>>> >>sheer size and weight of humanity on the planet (and growing growing
>>> >>growing).
>>> >
>>> > Plenty of room to spare, no room for dogs in the manger.
>>> >
>>> >>So I could do as you said:   Leave!!   But you and I both know
>>> >>it isn't that simple.  For you it is your reasons.  For me, I'll try
>>> >>to explain in answer to your question: What are you there for?
>>> >> Jesse  I've thought about writing to Keith personally and asking
>>> >>him to remove me from t

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense

ess.

 Here are some insights into Namaste from a number of Hindu(s):

 o  Namaste elevates  one's consciousness, reminding  one that all
beings,   all  existence   is  holy,   is  the   Almighty.  It
communicates, "I  honor or worship  the Divinity within  you."
Also  it draws  the individual  inward for  a moment, inspires
reflection  on the  deeper realities,  softening the interface
between  people.  It  would  be  difficult  or  offend or feel
animosity toward any one you greet as Paramatma.

 o  Namaste  is  a  gesture  of  friendship  and kindness, also of
thanks  or  special  recognition.   Mystically  it  is  called
"Namaskara Mudra" in the Agami(c)  Pooja, and it centers one's
energy within the spine.

 o  I've heard  it means "I  salute the Almighty  within you." The
true Namaste gesture is is  accompanied by bowing the head and
shoulders slightly.  This is a gesture  that lessens our sense
of ego and self-centeredness, requiring some humility to do it
well -- whereas shaking hands can be quite an arrogant event.

 o  Touching  the  hands  together  puts  you  in  touch with your
center, your soul. namaste puts you  forward as a soul, not an
outer personality.

 o  The gesture has a subtle effect  on the aura and nerve system.
bringing focused  attention and a collection  of one's forces,
so  to speak.  It  also  protects against  unnecessary psychic
connections which are fostered by shaking hands. This might be
called a form of purity also -- protecting one's energies.

  This form  of acknowledgment is  so lovely, so  graceful. Just
look at two  people in Namaste and you will  see so much human
    beauty and refinement.

>Also, I want
>to be sure Jason and Weaver read my post to Jesse that included my
>excitement about the three of us either living near or having ties near
>where each of us live.  Any suggestions?  Thanks.  Mike D
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:13 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
>
>
> > >Hi Keith...and List...thank you.  I had read, but forgotten (shame
> >>on me), the Credo before I asked to join.  It gave me the confidence
> >>to ask to join.  Wonderful to be reminded of, wake up with and read
> >>this morning.  Is that sunshine I see peaking through the clouds?!!!
> >>Getting ready to Look on the Bright Side of LIFE!!!  Mike DuPree
> >
> > Hey Mike, you just made my day. Not only it helped but you read it before.
> > :-)
> >
> > You mean that crazy song actually works?? LOL!
> >
> > This thread has covered a lot of ground from where it started to
> > where it is now. Interesting. Interesting last few posts from you
> > too, and nicely put, both sides of the coin, the bright and the dark.
> > One side of a coin doesn't buy you much, does it, you have to use the
> > whole coin.
> >
> > Namaste.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >>- Original Message -
> >>From: "Keith Addison"
> >><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>To: <<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> >>Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:38 AM
> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
> >>
> >> > Hi Mike
> >> >
> >> >>- Original Message -
> >> >>From:
> >><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mark>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mark
> >>manchester
> >> >>To:
> >><<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>mai
> >>lto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> >>Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:22 PM
> >> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
> >> >>
> >> >>Hi Jesse...thanks for writing. You wrote: This is surely the most
> >> >>depressing post I've ever seen.  A sign of the times???  You
> >> >>wrote: Mike!  What sort of response were you thinking you'd get?  I
> >> >>wasn't thinking, at least about what response I might get.  I felt
> >> >>frustrated, perhaps mostly by my own illusions.  You wrote: How can
> >> >>anyone respond to this.  One way is how you have responded. You
> >> >>wrote:  No dream no agriculture no biodiesel no...  simple
> >> >>answer.  It depends on the question.  For me in my post the question
> >> >>deals with h

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense

LOL...amen brother...have to use the whole coin.  The List is helping me do 
so.  I've also printed out and am keeping in front of the Credo for JtF. 
Also keeping on my desktop a shortcut to the words of the song and the song 
itself.  Ok...so now more fatheadedness...what is "Namaste"?  Also, I want 
to be sure Jason and Weaver read my post to Jesse that included my 
excitement about the three of us either living near or having ties near 
where each of us live.  Any suggestions?  Thanks.  Mike D

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense


> >Hi Keith...and List...thank you.  I had read, but forgotten (shame
>>on me), the Credo before I asked to join.  It gave me the confidence
>>to ask to join.  Wonderful to be reminded of, wake up with and read
>>this morning.  Is that sunshine I see peaking through the clouds?!!!
>>Getting ready to Look on the Bright Side of LIFE!!!  Mike DuPree
>
> Hey Mike, you just made my day. Not only it helped but you read it before. 
> :-)
>
> You mean that crazy song actually works?? LOL!
>
> This thread has covered a lot of ground from where it started to
> where it is now. Interesting. Interesting last few posts from you
> too, and nicely put, both sides of the coin, the bright and the dark.
> One side of a coin doesn't buy you much, does it, you have to use the
> whole coin.
>
> Namaste.
>
> Keith
>
>
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "Keith Addison"
>><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: <<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:38 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
>>
>> > Hi Mike
>> >
>> >>- Original Message -
>> >>From:
>><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mark>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mark
>>manchester
>> >>To:
>><<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>mai
>>lto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> >>Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:22 PM
>> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
>> >>
>> >>Hi Jesse...thanks for writing. You wrote: This is surely the most
>> >>depressing post I've ever seen.  A sign of the times???  You
>> >>wrote: Mike!  What sort of response were you thinking you'd get?  I
>> >>wasn't thinking, at least about what response I might get.  I felt
>> >>frustrated, perhaps mostly by my own illusions.  You wrote: How can
>> >>anyone respond to this.  One way is how you have responded. You
>> >>wrote:  No dream no agriculture no biodiesel no...  simple
>> >>answer.  It depends on the question.  For me in my post the question
>> >>deals with how do I personally deal with the madness on the
>> >>planet that appears to be becoming more so everyday.  Biodiesel is a
>> >>way.  And I'm excited to see it develop.  But I feel overwhelmed by
>> >>something much bigger.  I could call it Big Energy, Big Gov't.  Big
>> >>whatever.  But I'm afraid it has something more to do with me than
>> >>with anything outside of me.  But then it's not just me...it's the
>> >>sheer size and weight of humanity on the planet (and growing growing
>> >>growing).
>> >
>> > Plenty of room to spare, no room for dogs in the manger.
>> >
>> >>So I could do as you said:   Leave!!   But you and I both know
>> >>it isn't that simple.  For you it is your reasons.  For me, I'll try
>> >>to explain in answer to your question: What are you there for?
>> >> Jesse  I've thought about writing to Keith personally and asking
>> >>him to remove me from the List since my original intention of
>> >>joining the List has changed.
>> >
>> > You're welcome to change your intentions. It's not like a contract
>> > you're not allowed to break or something. A lot of people like the
>> > diversity of the list. There are these message snippets from various
>> > members at the website list subscription section, for instance:
>> >
>> > - "I came to the list strictly interested in getting my biodiesel
>> > project off the ground. Following the various postings I have
>> > discovered that I see the world as if from the bottom of a w

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense

>Hi Keith...and List...thank you.  I had read, but forgotten (shame 
>on me), the Credo before I asked to join.  It gave me the confidence 
>to ask to join.  Wonderful to be reminded of, wake up with and read 
>this morning.  Is that sunshine I see peaking through the clouds?!!! 
>Getting ready to Look on the Bright Side of LIFE!!!  Mike DuPree

Hey Mike, you just made my day. Not only it helped but you read it before. :-)

You mean that crazy song actually works?? LOL!

This thread has covered a lot of ground from where it started to 
where it is now. Interesting. Interesting last few posts from you 
too, and nicely put, both sides of the coin, the bright and the dark. 
One side of a coin doesn't buy you much, does it, you have to use the 
whole coin.

Namaste.

Keith


>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" 
><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:38 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
>
> > Hi Mike
> >
> >>- Original Message -
> >>From: 
><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mark>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mark 
>manchester
> >>To: 
><<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>mai 
>lto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >>Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:22 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
> >>
> >>Hi Jesse...thanks for writing. You wrote: This is surely the most
> >>depressing post I've ever seen.  A sign of the times???  You
> >>wrote: Mike!  What sort of response were you thinking you'd get?  I
> >>wasn't thinking, at least about what response I might get.  I felt
> >>frustrated, perhaps mostly by my own illusions.  You wrote: How can
> >>anyone respond to this.  One way is how you have responded. You
> >>wrote:  No dream no agriculture no biodiesel no...  simple
> >>answer.  It depends on the question.  For me in my post the question
> >>deals with how do I personally deal with the madness on the
> >>planet that appears to be becoming more so everyday.  Biodiesel is a
> >>way.  And I'm excited to see it develop.  But I feel overwhelmed by
> >>something much bigger.  I could call it Big Energy, Big Gov't.  Big
> >>whatever.  But I'm afraid it has something more to do with me than
> >>with anything outside of me.  But then it's not just me...it's the
> >>sheer size and weight of humanity on the planet (and growing growing
> >>growing).
> >
> > Plenty of room to spare, no room for dogs in the manger.
> >
> >>So I could do as you said:   Leave!!   But you and I both know
> >>it isn't that simple.  For you it is your reasons.  For me, I'll try
> >>to explain in answer to your question: What are you there for?
> >> Jesse  I've thought about writing to Keith personally and asking
> >>him to remove me from the List since my original intention of
> >>joining the List has changed. 
> >
> > You're welcome to change your intentions. It's not like a contract
> > you're not allowed to break or something. A lot of people like the
> > diversity of the list. There are these message snippets from various
> > members at the website list subscription section, for instance:
> >
> > - "I came to the list strictly interested in getting my biodiesel
> > project off the ground. Following the various postings I have
> > discovered that I see the world as if from the bottom of a well. The
> > view is expanding ever so slightly, ever so slowly. Thanks to all."
> >
> > - "The Biofuel list has awakened me to many ways I can directly help
> > make a difference. The knowledge I have gained from reading the list
> > in a few short months has encouraged me to try again."
> >
> > - "I benefit very much personally from the list, and I have yet to
> > make one drop of biofuel! But the insights that I get from the list
> > are amazing."
> >
> > - "I like the global view. It's good to have your beliefs challenged."
> >
> > - "This list has proven to me how little I know, so many times."
> >
> > The only time I'd remove you is if your intentions changed to those
> > of a dog in the manger and you couldn't be reasoned with.
> >
> > Otherwise, if you want out, you'd have to do it yourself, it's none
> > o

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense

2006-05-21 Thread mark manchester

Title: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense

Yay! 
Jesse

From: "M&K DuPree" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 06:54:00 -0500
To: 
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense

Hi Keith...and List...thank you.  I had read, but forgotten (shame on me), the Credo before I asked to join.  It gave me the confidence to ask to join.  Wonderful to be reminded of, wake up with and read this morning.  Is that sunshine I see peaking through the clouds?!!!  Getting ready to Look on the Bright Side of LIFE!!!  Mike DuPree

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense

2006-05-21 Thread mark manchester

Title: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense



Hi Mike,
Nuts, I forgot to put anything on the subject line in my response to you and to Keith.  Sorry!  Maybe you will find it anyway.
Thanks for your thoughtful response.  I appreciate your frustration!

From: "M&K DuPree" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 23:17:24 -0500
To: 
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense


     
- Original Message - 
From: mark manchester   
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
Hi Jesse...thanks for writing. You wrote: This is surely the most depressing post I've ever seen.  A sign of the times???  You wrote: Mike!  What sort of response were you thinking you'd get?  I wasn't thinking, at least about what response I might get.  I felt frustrated, perhaps mostly by my own illusions.  You wrote: How can anyone respond to this.  One way is how you have responded. You wrote:  No dream no agriculture no biodiesel no...  simple answer.  It depends on the question.  For me in my post the question deals with how do I personally deal with the madness on the planet that appears to be becoming more so everyday.  Biodiesel is a way.  And I'm excited to see it develop.  But I feel overwhelmed by something much bigger.  I could call it Big Energy, Big Gov't.  Big whatever.  But I'm afraid it has something more to do with me than with anything outside of me.  But then it's not just me...it's the sheer size and weight of humanity on the planet (and growing growing growing).  So I could do as you said:   Leave!!   But you and I both know it isn't that simple.  For you it is your reasons.  For me, I'll try to explain in answer to your question: What are you there for?  
Jesse  I've thought about writing to Keith personally and asking him to remove me from the List since my original intention of joining the List has changed.  I came here with the intention of learning how to make biodiesel and having a support group while doing so.  I have since decided for a multitude of reasons to not go this path.  But the List, as you know, is about more than just biodiesel.  


Mike, I can only hope that you realize I meant geographically.  If you have locusts and poisoned fish and no agriculture and hopelessness maybe a change of scenery might help.  This list is extremely supportive for many who are feeling your frustration, trying to live off the grid, make their lives better, protect the planet,  "survive the madness".

It is...hmm...well, I guess that depends on who you are and I am and any one of us is and especially who Keith lets it be.  So I haven't written to Keith, because for me, what I have observed and come to look for in my email, is someone else trying, just like me, to survive the madness...not to Leave!!...but to Live!!!  Or maybe I misjudged what I have been reading.  Consequently, if this List is not the place for me to have expressed what I have how I have, then it isn't.  
 Ah well, the glaciers are fading (check out pics in June, 2006, Men's Journal...staggering...we're fried folks!) as the planet heats up, BushCo not only not helpful but profoundly hurtful, US debt and the decline of the US dollar are poised to reveal to Americans the slaves all of us really are, even as jobs are disappearing for many here to many, many more Wall Street will pay less (actually the same according to some variations of the SOLVE act if it is passed) and conscript into its Death Machine, etc etc etc, apparently AD INFINITUM.  So let me tell ya...I'm smilin babeee...I mean "It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine"  Toto?!! Toto?!! Oh TOTO  "And I feel fine..."   
 Mike DuPree

Don't give up, dammit.  Change needs as many participants as possible.
Jesse

From: "M&K DuPree" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 11:30:57 -0500
To: 
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense


Hi D and List...Looking forward to watching What The Bleep Do We Know?  Checked out the website, synopsis, and trailer.  Wow.  Thanks D.
    Big Energy, Big Government, Big Religion, Big Bad...why do I feel so sad?  Just ain't no hope for the little guy...probably never was.  David vs Goliath just another fairy tale.  "I HAVE A DREAM..."  Sorry pops, just a dream.  The mountain of insolvency just too Big too overcome.  "Dang me, dang me, guess I'll take a rope and hang me."  No hope anywhere...oh!...build myself a biodiesel plant...but wait...my neighbor's doin same.  Last one to the WVO loses!!!  Another dream defiled.  Where's my bicycle...gotta be a problem there too...frame made in China???  Go buy

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense




Hi Keith...and List...thank 
you.  I had read, but forgotten (shame on me), the Credo 
before I asked to join.  It gave me the confidence to ask to 
join.  Wonderful to be reminded of, wake up with and read 
this morning.  Is that sunshine I see peaking through the clouds?!!!  
Getting ready to Look on the Bright Side of LIFE!!!  Mike 
DuPree
 
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:38 
AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on 
water and Other Nonsense
> Hi Mike> >>- Original 
Message ->>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mark manchester>>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:22 
PM>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other 
Nonsense>>>>Hi Jesse...thanks for writing. You wrote: This 
is surely the most >>depressing post I've ever seen.  A sign of 
the times???  You >>wrote: Mike!  What sort of response were 
you thinking you'd get?  I >>wasn't thinking, at least about what 
response I might get.  I felt >>frustrated, perhaps mostly by my 
own illusions.  You wrote: How can >>anyone respond to 
this.  One way is how you have responded. You >>wrote:  No 
dream no agriculture no biodiesel no...  simple >>answer.  
It depends on the question.  For me in my post the question 
>>deals with how do I personally deal with the madness on the 
>>planet that appears to be becoming more so everyday.  Biodiesel 
is a >>way.  And I'm excited to see it develop.  But I feel 
overwhelmed by >>something much bigger.  I could call it Big 
Energy, Big Gov't.  Big >>whatever.  But I'm afraid it has 
something more to do with me than >>with anything outside of me.  
But then it's not just me...it's the >>sheer size and weight of 
humanity on the planet (and growing growing >>growing).> 
> Plenty of room to spare, no room for dogs in the manger.> 
>>So I could do as you said:   Leave!!   But you 
and I both know >>it isn't that simple.  For you it is your 
reasons.  For me, I'll try >>to explain in answer to your 
question: What are you there for? >> Jesse  I've thought about 
writing to Keith personally and asking >>him to remove me from the 
List since my original intention of >>joining the List has 
changed.  > > You're welcome to change your intentions. It's 
not like a contract > you're not allowed to break or something. A lot of 
people like the > diversity of the list. There are these message snippets 
from various > members at the website list subscription section, for 
instance:> > - "I came to the list strictly interested in getting 
my biodiesel > project off the ground. Following the various postings I 
have > discovered that I see the world as if from the bottom of a well. 
The > view is expanding ever so slightly, ever so slowly. Thanks to 
all."> > - "The Biofuel list has awakened me to many ways I can 
directly help > make a difference. The knowledge I have gained from 
reading the list > in a few short months has encouraged me to try 
again."> > - "I benefit very much personally from the list, and I 
have yet to > make one drop of biofuel! But the insights that I get from 
the list > are amazing."> > - "I like the global view. It's 
good to have your beliefs challenged."> > - "This list has proven 
to me how little I know, so many times."> > The only time I'd 
remove you is if your intentions changed to those > of a dog in the 
manger and you couldn't be reasoned with.> > Otherwise, if you 
want out, you'd have to do it yourself, it's none > of my 
business.> > I guess this is the background to the way the list 
runs, have a look, > it might hearten you:> http://journeytoforever.org/community.html#credo> >>I came here with the intention of 
learning how to make biodiesel and >>having a support group while 
doing so.  I have since decided for a >>multitude of reasons to 
not go this path.  But the List, as you >>know, is about more 
than just biodiesel.  It is...hmm...well, I >>guess that depends 
on who you are and I am and any one of us is and >>especially who 
Keith lets it be.> > It has a mind of its own. I'm just the 
skivvy.> >>So I haven't written to Keith, because for me, what 
I have observed >>and come to look for in my email, is someone else 
trying, just like >>me, to survive the madness...not to Leave!!...but 
to Live!!!  Or >>maybe I misjudged what I have been 
reading.> > I don

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense/ YESmagazine.org

2006-05-21 Thread Martin Kemple

Check out YESmagazine.org

The Summer, '06 Issue, articles including:
-"The Great Turning: From Empire to Earth Community" by David Korten
-"North Korea and Cuba: Peak Oil Preview"
-"The Perfect Economic Storm"
-"Indigenous Prophecies" by John Mohawk-
-"Neighborhoods Prepare for the Worst - and the Best"

"5000 years of Empire - Ready for a Change?"

(Note: The Summer Issue is not yet on-line, I see, but all previous  
issues are.
  Surely Summer is just around the corner.)

It's not everything.  But nothing is everything.

-Martin K.


On May 21, 2006, at 3:38 AM, Keith Addison wrote:

> Hi Jesse, Mike
>
>> This is surely the most depressing post I've ever seen.  Mike!  What
>> sort of response were you thinking you'd get?  How can anyone
>> respond to this.  No dream no agriculture no biodiesel no...  simple
>> answer.  Leave!!  What are you there for?  Jesse
>
> Leave for where? Where is it not the case?
>
> On the other hand, where is it *only* the case?
>
> "Abandon hope all ye who enter here" is what it says on the Gates of
> Hell, and we're not there yet. I don't think we're even headed in
> that direction, appearances to the contrary.
>
> Did you read Mike's previous message Jesse, below?
>
> Keith
>
>
>> From: "M&K DuPree" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 11:30:57 -0500
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
>>
>>
>> Hi D and List...Looking forward to watching What The Bleep Do We
>> Know?  Checked out the website, synopsis, and trailer.  Wow.  Thanks
>> D.
>>Big Energy, Big Government, Big Religion, Big Bad...why do I
>> feel so sad?  Just ain't no hope for the little guy...probably never
>> was.  David vs Goliath just another fairy tale.  "I HAVE A DREAM..."
>> Sorry pops, just a dream.  The mountain of insolvency just too Big
>> too overcome.  "Dang me, dang me, guess I'll take a rope and hang
>> me."  No hope anywhere...oh!...build myself a biodiesel plant...but
>> wait...my neighbor's doin same.  Last one to the WVO loses!!!
>> Another dream defiled.  Where's my bicycle...gotta be a problem
>> there too...frame made in China???  Go buy some food...too stupid,
>> poor, lazy, or just simply born at the wrong time in the wrong place
>> to grow my own, to say nothing of the locust invasion last year that
>> kept me out of the fields and meant me needing to buy from who knows
>> where on the planet...DANG ME  What a rotten Reality.  Oh, I
>> see, not supposed to SEE...just dream..."Imagine"...and take four
>> bullets in the back.  Lovely.  Good morning, WORLD!!! I LOVE YOU!!!
>> PEACE!!! Hey, give me back the shirt off my back.  Ah well...takin
>> my can of worms and goin fishin in that polluted water over
>> there...and dream...with my gun by my side.  Mike DuPree
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: D. Mindock <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 4:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>
>> Mike,
>>   Just want to add my 2 cents on this subject. If BlackLight, or
>> anyone else, comes up
>> with a solid system to create vast amounts of energy from
>> water/hydrogen, it will be
>> snatched up by Big Energy and then controlled by them. Not much will
>> change. Our
>> monthly energy bills won't go away.
>> I think we can rely on the gov to allow Big Energy to parcel out
>> energy to we wee folks and keep their
>> profits in the 100's of billions of dollars per year. Congress
>> writes the laws that Big Energy dictates.
>> It is Big Energy that is gluttonous.
>>  The masses are bombarded with propaganda and hardly realize how
>> they're all being manipulated.
>> I am still waking up from this soup of B.S. we've been immersed in
>> here in the U$A.
>> Peace to all, D. Mindock   P.S. I agree that we are all
>> inter-connected, more than we can imagine.
>> I saw the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know?" a couple years ago, and
>> nothing's been the same
>> since.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: M&K DuPree <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>
>> Thanks Bob...it's all new to me, and I'm thankful I h

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense

Hi Jesse, Mike

>This is surely the most depressing post I've ever seen.  Mike!  What 
>sort of response were you thinking you'd get?  How can anyone 
>respond to this.  No dream no agriculture no biodiesel no...  simple 
>answer.  Leave!!  What are you there for?  Jesse

Leave for where? Where is it not the case?

On the other hand, where is it *only* the case?

"Abandon hope all ye who enter here" is what it says on the Gates of 
Hell, and we're not there yet. I don't think we're even headed in 
that direction, appearances to the contrary.

Did you read Mike's previous message Jesse, below?

Keith


>From: "M&K DuPree" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 11:30:57 -0500
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
>
>
>Hi D and List...Looking forward to watching What The Bleep Do We 
>Know?  Checked out the website, synopsis, and trailer.  Wow.  Thanks 
>D.
>Big Energy, Big Government, Big Religion, Big Bad...why do I 
>feel so sad?  Just ain't no hope for the little guy...probably never 
>was.  David vs Goliath just another fairy tale.  "I HAVE A DREAM..." 
> Sorry pops, just a dream.  The mountain of insolvency just too Big 
>too overcome.  "Dang me, dang me, guess I'll take a rope and hang 
>me."  No hope anywhere...oh!...build myself a biodiesel plant...but 
>wait...my neighbor's doin same.  Last one to the WVO loses!!! 
> Another dream defiled.  Where's my bicycle...gotta be a problem 
>there too...frame made in China???  Go buy some food...too stupid, 
>poor, lazy, or just simply born at the wrong time in the wrong place 
>to grow my own, to say nothing of the locust invasion last year that 
>kept me out of the fields and meant me needing to buy from who knows 
>where on the planet...DANG ME  What a rotten Reality.  Oh, I 
>see, not supposed to SEE...just dream..."Imagine"...and take four 
>bullets in the back.  Lovely.  Good morning, WORLD!!! I LOVE YOU!!! 
>PEACE!!! Hey, give me back the shirt off my back.  Ah well...takin 
>my can of worms and goin fishin in that polluted water over 
>there...and dream...with my gun by my side.  Mike DuPree  
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: D. Mindock <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 4:52 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>
>Mike,
>   Just want to add my 2 cents on this subject. If BlackLight, or 
>anyone else, comes up
>with a solid system to create vast amounts of energy from 
>water/hydrogen, it will be
>snatched up by Big Energy and then controlled by them. Not much will 
>change. Our
>monthly energy bills won't go away.
> I think we can rely on the gov to allow Big Energy to parcel out 
>energy to we wee folks and keep their
>profits in the 100's of billions of dollars per year. Congress 
>writes the laws that Big Energy dictates.
>It is Big Energy that is gluttonous.
>  The masses are bombarded with propaganda and hardly realize how 
>they're all being manipulated.
>I am still waking up from this soup of B.S. we've been immersed in 
>here in the U$A.
>Peace to all, D. Mindock   P.S. I agree that we are all 
>inter-connected, more than we can imagine.
>I saw the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know?" a couple years ago, and 
>nothing's been the same
>since.
>
>- Original Message -
>From: M&K DuPree <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:28 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>
>Thanks Bob...it's all new to me, and I'm thankful I have the List to 
>present my inquiries.  PS You noted earlier and Joe Street agreed, 
>"In my mind, infinite energy is the worst case scenario I can think 
>of- energy to spare, energy to drive the gluttonous behavior of 
>everybody on the planet.  NO THANKS"  LOL...well...yes, I kind of 
>agree, because I know way too many fatheads who would take advantage 
>of ulimited energy in just such a manner.  But then I also disagree. 
> What WOULD unlimited energy mean for the planet and its' peoples??? 
> To me, that question seems to point to a question of human nature, 
>which your statement indicates you believe is utterly without hope 
>for a true social consciousness and conscience.  Maybe you disagree, 
>but I'm just citing your words.  Contrarily, I witness something 
>very different present.  Please hang with me for a moment while I 
>try to explain.  "Independence" is an illusion.  Let me say that 
>again, "Independence" is an illusio

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense

Hi Mike

>- Original Message -
>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mark manchester
>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:22 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
>
>Hi Jesse...thanks for writing. You wrote: This is surely the most 
>depressing post I've ever seen.  A sign of the times???  You 
>wrote: Mike!  What sort of response were you thinking you'd get?  I 
>wasn't thinking, at least about what response I might get.  I felt 
>frustrated, perhaps mostly by my own illusions.  You wrote: How can 
>anyone respond to this.  One way is how you have responded. You 
>wrote:  No dream no agriculture no biodiesel no...  simple 
>answer.  It depends on the question.  For me in my post the question 
>deals with how do I personally deal with the madness on the 
>planet that appears to be becoming more so everyday.  Biodiesel is a 
>way.  And I'm excited to see it develop.  But I feel overwhelmed by 
>something much bigger.  I could call it Big Energy, Big Gov't.  Big 
>whatever.  But I'm afraid it has something more to do with me than 
>with anything outside of me.  But then it's not just me...it's the 
>sheer size and weight of humanity on the planet (and growing growing 
>growing).

Plenty of room to spare, no room for dogs in the manger.

>So I could do as you said:   Leave!!   But you and I both know 
>it isn't that simple.  For you it is your reasons.  For me, I'll try 
>to explain in answer to your question: What are you there for? 
> Jesse  I've thought about writing to Keith personally and asking 
>him to remove me from the List since my original intention of 
>joining the List has changed.  

You're welcome to change your intentions. It's not like a contract 
you're not allowed to break or something. A lot of people like the 
diversity of the list. There are these message snippets from various 
members at the website list subscription section, for instance:

- "I came to the list strictly interested in getting my biodiesel 
project off the ground. Following the various postings I have 
discovered that I see the world as if from the bottom of a well. The 
view is expanding ever so slightly, ever so slowly. Thanks to all."

- "The Biofuel list has awakened me to many ways I can directly help 
make a difference. The knowledge I have gained from reading the list 
in a few short months has encouraged me to try again."

- "I benefit very much personally from the list, and I have yet to 
make one drop of biofuel! But the insights that I get from the list 
are amazing."

- "I like the global view. It's good to have your beliefs challenged."

- "This list has proven to me how little I know, so many times."

The only time I'd remove you is if your intentions changed to those 
of a dog in the manger and you couldn't be reasoned with.

Otherwise, if you want out, you'd have to do it yourself, it's none 
of my business.

I guess this is the background to the way the list runs, have a look, 
it might hearten you:
http://journeytoforever.org/community.html#credo

>I came here with the intention of learning how to make biodiesel and 
>having a support group while doing so.  I have since decided for a 
>multitude of reasons to not go this path.  But the List, as you 
>know, is about more than just biodiesel.  It is...hmm...well, I 
>guess that depends on who you are and I am and any one of us is and 
>especially who Keith lets it be.

It has a mind of its own. I'm just the skivvy.

>So I haven't written to Keith, because for me, what I have observed 
>and come to look for in my email, is someone else trying, just like 
>me, to survive the madness...not to Leave!!...but to Live!!!  Or 
>maybe I misjudged what I have been reading.

I don't think so. I do think there are better options around than 
just surviving it though.

>Consequently, if this List is not the place for me to have expressed 
>what I have how I have, then it isn't.

Some might think it is, some might think it isn't, but if you think 
it's the place then it is the place, just as long as you're not being 
a dog in the manger.

> Ah well, the glaciers are fading (check out pics in June, 
>2006, Men's Journal...staggering...we're fried folks!)

Too soon to tell. Definitely not too early to be wide awake and up 
and doing about it though, among other things. A lot of people think 
the Biofuel list is the right place for that too.

> as the planet heats up, BushCo not only not helpful but profoundly 
>hurtful, US debt and the decline of the US dollar are poised to 
>reveal to Americans the slaves all of us really are, even as

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-19 Thread JJJN

Oh boy I see where this is going just trying to avoid the temptation 
need help need help phew wok it'll be good.

Jim

Joe Street wrote:

>I wish I had a wife that ran on B100!  Talk about low maintenance!!
>
>J
>
>Keith Addison wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Bob Allen said:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>In my mind, infinite energy is the worst case scenario I can think 
>>>of- energy to spare, energy to
>>>drive the gluttonous behavior of everybody on the planet.  NO THANKS
>>>  
>>>
>>BRAVO!!!
>>
>>But Ryan aims to switch even his wife to biodiesel:
>>
>>
>>
>>
OK now, I'm not looking for finacial gain, but rather prevention of 
financial loss.  Where I am in my life right now means I am driving 
90+ miles a day for work.  I'm dropping $80 a week on diesel. 
PLUS, I LVE driving.  I'm a driver; pack up the wife and 
daughter in the truck, and take a nice long trip down the 
unexplored backroads for a week.  If I have to even CONSIDER not 
taking a vacation like this because of the fuel cost, then that is 
just beyond horrible.  Once I switch to B100, no concerns.  Once I 
switch my wife to B100, even better.


>>:-)
>>
>>Best
>>
>>Keith
>>
>>
>>___
>>Biofuel mailing list
>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>  
>

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
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http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-19 Thread Joe Street

I wish I had a wife that ran on B100!  Talk about low maintenance!!

J

Keith Addison wrote:

> Bob Allen said:
> 
> 
>>In my mind, infinite energy is the worst case scenario I can think 
>>of- energy to spare, energy to
>>drive the gluttonous behavior of everybody on the planet.  NO THANKS
> 
> 
> BRAVO!!!
> 
> But Ryan aims to switch even his wife to biodiesel:
> 
> 
>>>OK now, I'm not looking for finacial gain, but rather prevention of 
>>>financial loss.  Where I am in my life right now means I am driving 
>>>90+ miles a day for work.  I'm dropping $80 a week on diesel. 
>>>PLUS, I LVE driving.  I'm a driver; pack up the wife and 
>>>daughter in the truck, and take a nice long trip down the 
>>>unexplored backroads for a week.  If I have to even CONSIDER not 
>>>taking a vacation like this because of the fuel cost, then that is 
>>>just beyond horrible.  Once I switch to B100, no concerns.  Once I 
>>>switch my wife to B100, even better.
> 
> 
> :-)
> 
> Best
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-19 Thread Keith Addison

Bob Allen said:

>In my mind, infinite energy is the worst case scenario I can think 
>of- energy to spare, energy to
>drive the gluttonous behavior of everybody on the planet.  NO THANKS

BRAVO!!!

But Ryan aims to switch even his wife to biodiesel:

>>OK now, I'm not looking for finacial gain, but rather prevention of 
>>financial loss.  Where I am in my life right now means I am driving 
>>90+ miles a day for work.  I'm dropping $80 a week on diesel. 
>>PLUS, I LVE driving.  I'm a driver; pack up the wife and 
>>daughter in the truck, and take a nice long trip down the 
>>unexplored backroads for a week.  If I have to even CONSIDER not 
>>taking a vacation like this because of the fuel cost, then that is 
>>just beyond horrible.  Once I switch to B100, no concerns.  Once I 
>>switch my wife to B100, even better.

:-)

Best

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-18 Thread JJJN

Joe and Bob,
Whats wrong with you guys? Just imagine all that energy . if Bush co 
got a hold of that he could spread his glitter all over the galaxies, we 
could bring them dang ET's into line out there yes just 
think wow we may just need the space ship to find a decent planet. No 
thanks for me either.

Jim

Joe Street wrote:

>YES!  Thank you for saying that Bob!
>I agree completely.  I wish more people could see it that way.
>
>Small is beautifulless is more.
>
>Joe
>
>bob allen wrote:
>  
>
>>In my mind, infinite energy is the worst case scenario I can think of- energy 
>>to spare, energy to 
>>drive the gluttonous behavior of everybody on the planet.  NO THANKS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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>
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>
>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-18 Thread bob allen

ight for a year in 1996 on behalf 
> of Oregon electric utility Pacificorp.
> 
> 'We were convinced there was excess energy being produced by what he was 
> then calling 'hydrocatalysis,'' Mears said. So convinced that the team 
> leader left to work for Black Light for a year before moving on to the 
> International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, he added. Pacificorp signed 
> on, and was followed by the Mid-Atlantic utility Conectiv. Now Morgan 
> Stanley Dean Witter wants to usher BlackLight to an initial public 
> offering."
> 
> Mike DuPree
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
> 
> 
>> Howdy Mike, I am singularly unimpressed. all the patents (I agree with 
>> park that the patent office
>> has given up trying to define what is real and what is not) and all the 
>> math-o-babble are not going
>> to convince me as easily as simple proof of efficacy: start selling power 
>> which one extracts from
>> what-ever previously unheard of source, and I will believe.
>>
>> the author of the article, tom bearden claims to have built a replicable 
>> "overunity" device which
>> "extracts energy from the vacuum" whatever that means.  But I am left to 
>> wonder, does his electric
>> meter run backwards? in fact, why isn't he producing all sorts of 
>> products, smelting iron, reducing
>> bauxite,  producing any number of goods which require energy? If his 
>> device is real, we should see
>> huge transformers out side his bedroom window to take all the power away.
>>
>> the same is true for Mills device. 100 man-years to develop a heat source? 
>> give me a break.
>>
>>   "Science is what we have learned about how to keep
>> from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman
>>
>>
>> somebody is fooling themselves...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> M&K DuPree wrote:
>>> Bob, what do you think after reading this:
>>> http://www.cheniere.org/misc/mills.htm ??? Mike DuPree
>>>
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:32 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>>
>>>
>>>> Howdy D, you seem to accept that the "hydrino" is real; that is, that
>>>> Mills has discovered a new
>>>> form of matter- hydrogen with a never before seen energy state below the
>>>> know ground state. Well I'm
>>>> going to hold my breath in anticipation. what is your prediction as to
>>>> when we will be powering the
>>>> world? or even making the meter at his lab run backwards?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I automatically reject anything which
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
>>>>> I think you should be more open, but that's just my opinion. Appearing 
>>>>> to
>>>>> violate the laws does
>>>>> not imply that the laws were indeed violated. Sometimes closer 
>>>>> inspection
>>>>> is needed. BTW, the
>>>>> Fluctuation Theorem (extension/replacement of the 2nd Law) of Denis 
>>>>> Evans
>>>>> allows, in nanoscale
>>>>> systems, violations of the 2nd Law.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
>>>>> Inventors are always afraid of someone stealing their ideas. Even the
>>>>> patent process can be
>>>>> intercepted by special interests. It is a Catch-22.
>>>> yes, but a catch-22 that charlatans have hidden behind for centuries.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Dr Randell Mills though has got his system of energy creation via
>>>>> hydrinos patented. He invites
>>>>> any scientist to come to his facility and examine his prototypes. He
>>>>> offers unfettered access.
>>>>> Some sceptics have stayed as long as a year and came away believers.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. doesn't currently sell power to the grid with the device, even 
>>>>>> though
>>>>>> claims are made of
>>>&g

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-18 Thread Joe Street

YES!  Thank you for saying that Bob!
I agree completely.  I wish more people could see it that way.

Small is beautifulless is more.

Joe

bob allen wrote:
> 
> 
> In my mind, infinite energy is the worst case scenario I can think of- energy 
> to spare, energy to 
> drive the gluttonous behavior of everybody on the planet.  NO THANKS
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-18 Thread M&K DuPree

Hi Bob and List...here's something else: 
http://prorev.com/2005/11/harvard-doctor-claims-to-have-found.htm An excerpt 
from the article reads, "Rick Maas, a chemist at the University of North 
Carolina at Asheville who specialises in sustainable energy sources, was 
allowed unfettered access to Blacklight's laboratories this year. (2005) 'We 
went in with a healthy amount of scepticism. While it would certainly be 
nice if this were true, in my position as head of a research institution, I 
really wouldn't want to make a mistake. The last thing I want is to be 
remembered as the person who derailed a lot of sustainable energy investment 
into something that wasn't real.'

"But Prof Maas and Randy Booker, a UNC physicist, left under no doubt about 
Dr Mill's claims. 'All of us who are not quantum physicists are looking at 
Dr Mills's data and we find it very compelling,' said Prof Maas. 'Dr Booker 
and I have both put our professional reputations on the line as far as that 
goes.'

ERIK BAARD, SPACE - 'Something real is generating energy there,' said Dan 
Mears, president of Technology Insights, an energy technology consulting 
group in San Diego that investigated BlackLight for a year in 1996 on behalf 
of Oregon electric utility Pacificorp.

'We were convinced there was excess energy being produced by what he was 
then calling 'hydrocatalysis,'' Mears said. So convinced that the team 
leader left to work for Black Light for a year before moving on to the 
International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, he added. Pacificorp signed 
on, and was followed by the Mid-Atlantic utility Conectiv. Now Morgan 
Stanley Dean Witter wants to usher BlackLight to an initial public 
offering."

Mike DuPree

- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

> Howdy Mike, I am singularly unimpressed. all the patents (I agree with 
> park that the patent office
> has given up trying to define what is real and what is not) and all the 
> math-o-babble are not going
> to convince me as easily as simple proof of efficacy: start selling power 
> which one extracts from
> what-ever previously unheard of source, and I will believe.
>
> the author of the article, tom bearden claims to have built a replicable 
> "overunity" device which
> "extracts energy from the vacuum" whatever that means.  But I am left to 
> wonder, does his electric
> meter run backwards? in fact, why isn't he producing all sorts of 
> products, smelting iron, reducing
> bauxite,  producing any number of goods which require energy? If his 
> device is real, we should see
> huge transformers out side his bedroom window to take all the power away.
>
> the same is true for Mills device. 100 man-years to develop a heat source? 
> give me a break.
>
>   "Science is what we have learned about how to keep
> from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman
>
>
> somebody is fooling themselves...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> M&K DuPree wrote:
>> Bob, what do you think after reading this:
>> http://www.cheniere.org/misc/mills.htm ??? Mike DuPree
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>
>>
>>> Howdy D, you seem to accept that the "hydrino" is real; that is, that
>>> Mills has discovered a new
>>> form of matter- hydrogen with a never before seen energy state below the
>>> know ground state. Well I'm
>>> going to hold my breath in anticipation. what is your prediction as to
>>> when we will be powering the
>>> world? or even making the meter at his lab run backwards?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I automatically reject anything which
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
>>>> I think you should be more open, but that's just my opinion. Appearing 
>>>> to
>>>> violate the laws does
>>>> not imply that the laws were indeed violated. Sometimes closer 
>>>> inspection
>>>> is needed. BTW, the
>>>> Fluctuation Theorem (extension/replacement of the 2nd Law) of Denis 
>>>> Evans
>>>> allows, in nanoscale
>>>> systems, violations of the 2nd Law.
>>>>
>>>>> 2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
>>>

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-17 Thread D. Mindock

Hi Bob,

> D. Mindock wrote:
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> I do know that science is not a "done deal". Anyway, I have gone 
>> through
>> his website and it seems
>>  coherent. There is no hint that he is trying to hide anything. He lays 
>> it
>> all out with animations,
>> white papers, etc. He is not the Lone Ranger wrt hydrinos, other 
>> scientists
>> have duplicated his results.
>>  I will wait, anxiously, and see how this drama plays out. If he's able 
>> to
>> do as he claims, well, the world
>> will be a lot better place.
>
> In my mind, infinite energy is the worst case scenario I can think of- 
> energy to spare, energy to
> drive the gluttonous behavior of everybody on the planet.  NO THANKS

That's an interesting comment. I do think Mills will be bought out, if his 
tech is solid enough
to produce a real world device that puts out many thousands of continous 
watts using hydrogen
from electrolysis.
Then it, the energy, will be parceled out over the grid as now. No more 
pollution from power
generation, but electric bills will be there every month. Private ownership 
likely would
be banned. Big Biz controls our government and the govenment would come up 
with
some excuse to keep private ownership illegal. (Maybe they'd use the reason 
you give
above?  Anyhow, I hope I we're both wrong.) But looking at our history, I 
think it's the most likely scenario.
The government does want to control us, as much as possible. That is 
certain. The idea
of government being the servant of the people is given lip service, at best.

>
>
>
>
>  We'll be free of the control of Big Energy. I
>> believe
>> that he will have to eventually overcome considerable outside 
>> interference
>
> and that would be just what? he has his patent, what is holding things up?

I don't know. He does have prototypes working. But getting from prototype to
a marketable system is a huge step. He talks about this on his radio 
interview.
I don't know how many scientists and engineers he has working on this 
project.
This info could be on the website, but I don't recall seeing it. Also I 
don't think
he said anything about this on the radio interview, except for the 100 
man-year
figure. He said this equates to one year if he had 100 men. So he implies he 
has less
than a 100.

>
>
>> to get his vision to the stage of actual
>> implementation.
>
> >As far as I know, he is the only one who has made
>> "extraordinary claims" to have gotten
>> as far he has with his technology.
>
> if he is not selling power, he has gotten no where.

Well, there are some preliminary steps to accomplish first. He does
more than ready & willing to bring his tech to the world.

>
>
>
>  I do wish him and his colleagues all the
>> best.
>
> sorry, I can't be so positive. either he is naive or crooked.  I have been 
> arguing over these
> "something for nothing energy schemes" since I was an undergraduate in the 
> sixties.  Nobody has
> proved me wrong yet.

You are right to be skeptical. No argument there. He appears to violate 
quantum theory which has been
pretty reliable so far, although it is well known to be incomplete. Thus we 
have the search for the Theory
of Everything which will explain all phenomena from sub-atomic to cosmic in 
size. Einstein tried but he was
well past his prime when he was working on it.

Peace, D. Mindock

>
>
>
>
>>
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>
>>
>>> Howdy D, you seem to accept that the "hydrino" is real; that is, that
>>> Mills has discovered a new
>>> form of matter- hydrogen with a never before seen energy state below the
>>> know ground state. Well I'm
>>> going to hold my breath in anticipation. what is your prediction as to
>>> when we will be powering the
>>> world? or even making the meter at his lab run backwards?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I automatically reject anything which
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
>>>> I think you should be more open, but that's just my opinion. Appearing 
>>>> to
>>>> violate the laws does
>>>> not imply that the laws were indeed violated. Sometimes closer 
>>>> inspection
>>>> i

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-17 Thread D. Mindock

Hi Bob,
 The Bohr model of electron orbits is a probability distribution of 
where the
electron most likely will settle when observed. What prohibits the electron 
from going lower
than 13.6 eV?, the so-called ground state.  I don't see any reason why it 
can't.
See: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hyde.html
100 man-years is needed for a marketable hydrino device. This is not 
such a long
time. 25 men could get it to market in four years. This is very reasonable. 
Look
at the man-years that Bill Gates is expending on the new version of Windows
XP called Vista. It must be something like 2000 man-years. And it was 
recently announced
that it will be delayed, again, till early 2007. Vista is always on the 
horizon. Anyway, I for
one, hope Mills surmounts all the nay-sayers and especially people who'd 
like to sabotage
his efforts. Tom Bearden said that skeptics can be useful. They make you
tighten up your explanation of how your invention works.
 Dr Mills was not given a patent. They made him jump through hoops to 
get it,
for almost a decade, I think it was. It was a long struggle. And he did get 
a scientist, independently, to reproduce
his results with hydrinos. This is a keystone of a valid new technology, 
reproducibility.
Bob, there are many skeptics wrt hydrinos. Dr Park is a well-known 
critic. He deplores/attacks
anything except hot fusion, which shows great promise. How long have we 
heard that?
For the good of all of us, I hope Dr Mills gets his tech ready for prime 
time soon. I want
my meter running backwards and to get a monthly check from my power company.
   Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

> Howdy Mike, I am singularly unimpressed. all the patents (I agree with 
> park that the patent office
> has given up trying to define what is real and what is not) and all the 
> math-o-babble are not going
> to convince me as easily as simple proof of efficacy: start selling power 
> which one extracts from
> what-ever previously unheard of source, and I will believe.
>
> the author of the article, tom bearden claims to have built a replicable 
> "overunity" device which
> "extracts energy from the vacuum" whatever that means.  But I am left to 
> wonder, does his electric
> meter run backwards? in fact, why isn't he producing all sorts of 
> products, smelting iron, reducing
> bauxite,  producing any number of goods which require energy? If his 
> device is real, we should see
> huge transformers out side his bedroom window to take all the power away.
>
> the same is true for Mills device. 100 man-years to develop a heat source? 
> give me a break.
>
>   "Science is what we have learned about how to keep
> from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman
>
>
> somebody is fooling themselves...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> M&K DuPree wrote:
>> Bob, what do you think after reading this:
>> http://www.cheniere.org/misc/mills.htm ??? Mike DuPree
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>
>>
>>> Howdy D, you seem to accept that the "hydrino" is real; that is, that
>>> Mills has discovered a new
>>> form of matter- hydrogen with a never before seen energy state below the
>>> know ground state. Well I'm
>>> going to hold my breath in anticipation. what is your prediction as to
>>> when we will be powering the
>>> world? or even making the meter at his lab run backwards?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I automatically reject anything which
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
>>>> I think you should be more open, but that's just my opinion. Appearing 
>>>> to
>>>> violate the laws does
>>>> not imply that the laws were indeed violated. Sometimes closer 
>>>> inspection
>>>> is needed. BTW, the
>>>> Fluctuation Theorem (extension/replacement of the 2nd Law) of Denis 
>>>> Evans
>>>> allows, in nanoscale
>>>> systems, violations of the 2nd Law.
>>>>
>>>>> 2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
>>>> Inventors are always afraid of someone stealing their ideas. Even the
>>>> patent process can be
>>>> intercepted by special interests. It

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-17 Thread bob allen

D. Mindock wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> I do know that science is not a "done deal". Anyway, I have gone through 
> his website and it seems
>  coherent. There is no hint that he is trying to hide anything. He lays it 
> all out with animations,
> white papers, etc. He is not the Lone Ranger wrt hydrinos, other scientists 
> have duplicated his results.
>  I will wait, anxiously, and see how this drama plays out. If he's able to 
> do as he claims, well, the world
> will be a lot better place.

In my mind, infinite energy is the worst case scenario I can think of- energy 
to spare, energy to 
drive the gluttonous behavior of everybody on the planet.  NO THANKS




  We'll be free of the control of Big Energy. I
> believe
> that he will have to eventually overcome considerable outside interference

and that would be just what? he has his patent, what is holding things up?


> to get his vision to the stage of actual
> implementation.

 >As far as I know, he is the only one who has made
> "extraordinary claims" to have gotten
> as far he has with his technology.

if he is not selling power, he has gotten no where.



  I do wish him and his colleagues all the
> best.

sorry, I can't be so positive. either he is naive or crooked.  I have been 
arguing over these 
"something for nothing energy schemes" since I was an undergraduate in the 
sixties.  Nobody has 
proved me wrong yet.




> 
> Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> 
> - Original Message ----- 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
> 
> 
>> Howdy D, you seem to accept that the "hydrino" is real; that is, that 
>> Mills has discovered a new
>> form of matter- hydrogen with a never before seen energy state below the 
>> know ground state. Well I'm
>> going to hold my breath in anticipation. what is your prediction as to 
>> when we will be powering the
>> world? or even making the meter at his lab run backwards?
>>
>>
>>
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>>
>>>> I automatically reject anything which
>>>>
>>>> 1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
>>> I think you should be more open, but that's just my opinion. Appearing to 
>>> violate the laws does
>>> not imply that the laws were indeed violated. Sometimes closer inspection 
>>> is needed. BTW, the
>>> Fluctuation Theorem (extension/replacement of the 2nd Law) of Denis Evans 
>>> allows, in nanoscale
>>> systems, violations of the 2nd Law.
>>>
>>>> 2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
>>> Inventors are always afraid of someone stealing their ideas. Even the 
>>> patent process can be
>>> intercepted by special interests. It is a Catch-22.
>> yes, but a catch-22 that charlatans have hidden behind for centuries.
>>
>>
>>> Dr Randell Mills though has got his system of energy creation via 
>>> hydrinos patented. He invites
>>> any scientist to come to his facility and examine his prototypes. He 
>>> offers unfettered access.
>>> Some sceptics have stayed as long as a year and came away believers.
>>>
>>>> 3. doesn't currently sell power to the grid with the device, even though 
>>>> claims are made of
>>>> power production.
>>  when he starts  selling power, I'll believe it. All it would take is to 
>> build the mousetrap in a
>> secret box, then connect it to the grid. From his discription I can't 
>> imagine why a 100-man years of
>> work are necessary- all he is doing is getting more energy out than put 
>> in.  He heats a hydrogen
>> plasma in the presence of a catalyst and claims he gets more out than in - 
>> it should be a nobrainer,
>> use the excess heat to boil water, turn a turbine and sell power.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Dr Mills wants to do that, put power on the grid. As to whether his 
>>> hydrinos can power a car, he
>>> is working on that. He's confident that it is possible.
>>>
>>>> I guess I just have a lower tolerance for fraud, or at least a higher 
>>>> standard for proof.
>>> Well, why don't you go out to visit his facility? It could be an eye 
>>> opener.
>>
>> no,no he is making extraordinary claims, so he is going to have a lot more 
>> proof before I cross the
>> street.  Have you invested in this miracle? here is the link:
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTE

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-17 Thread bob allen

Howdy Mike, I am singularly unimpressed. all the patents (I agree with park 
that the patent office 
has given up trying to define what is real and what is not) and all the 
math-o-babble are not going 
to convince me as easily as simple proof of efficacy: start selling power which 
one extracts from 
what-ever previously unheard of source, and I will believe.

the author of the article, tom bearden claims to have built a replicable 
"overunity" device which 
"extracts energy from the vacuum" whatever that means.  But I am left to 
wonder, does his electric 
meter run backwards? in fact, why isn't he producing all sorts of products, 
smelting iron, reducing 
bauxite,  producing any number of goods which require energy? If his device is 
real, we should see 
huge transformers out side his bedroom window to take all the power away.

the same is true for Mills device. 100 man-years to develop a heat source?  
give me a break.

   "Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman


somebody is fooling themselves...






M&K DuPree wrote:
> Bob, what do you think after reading this: 
> http://www.cheniere.org/misc/mills.htm ??? Mike DuPree
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
> 
> 
>> Howdy D, you seem to accept that the "hydrino" is real; that is, that 
>> Mills has discovered a new
>> form of matter- hydrogen with a never before seen energy state below the 
>> know ground state. Well I'm
>> going to hold my breath in anticipation. what is your prediction as to 
>> when we will be powering the
>> world? or even making the meter at his lab run backwards?
>>
>>
>>
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>>
>>>> I automatically reject anything which
>>>>
>>>> 1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
>>> I think you should be more open, but that's just my opinion. Appearing to 
>>> violate the laws does
>>> not imply that the laws were indeed violated. Sometimes closer inspection 
>>> is needed. BTW, the
>>> Fluctuation Theorem (extension/replacement of the 2nd Law) of Denis Evans 
>>> allows, in nanoscale
>>> systems, violations of the 2nd Law.
>>>
>>>> 2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
>>> Inventors are always afraid of someone stealing their ideas. Even the 
>>> patent process can be
>>> intercepted by special interests. It is a Catch-22.
>> yes, but a catch-22 that charlatans have hidden behind for centuries.
>>
>>
>>> Dr Randell Mills though has got his system of energy creation via 
>>> hydrinos patented. He invites
>>> any scientist to come to his facility and examine his prototypes. He 
>>> offers unfettered access.
>>> Some sceptics have stayed as long as a year and came away believers.
>>>
>>>> 3. doesn't currently sell power to the grid with the device, even though 
>>>> claims are made of
>>>> power production.
>>  when he starts  selling power, I'll believe it. All it would take is to 
>> build the mousetrap in a
>> secret box, then connect it to the grid. From his discription I can't 
>> imagine why a 100-man years of
>> work are necessary- all he is doing is getting more energy out than put 
>> in.  He heats a hydrogen
>> plasma in the presence of a catalyst and claims he gets more out than in - 
>> it should be a nobrainer,
>> use the excess heat to boil water, turn a turbine and sell power.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Dr Mills wants to do that, put power on the grid. As to whether his 
>>> hydrinos can power a car, he
>>> is working on that. He's confident that it is possible.
>>>
>>>> I guess I just have a lower tolerance for fraud, or at least a higher 
>>>> standard for proof.
>>> Well, why don't you go out to visit his facility? It could be an eye 
>>> opener.
>>
>> no,no he is making extraordinary claims, so he is going to have a lot more 
>> proof before I cross the
>> street.  Have you invested in this miracle? here is the link:
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>> "Science is what we have learned about how to keep
>> from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman
>>
>>> www.blacklightpower.org
>>>
>>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>>>
>>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-16 Thread D. Mindock

Hi Bob,

I do know that science is not a "done deal". Anyway, I have gone through 
his website and it seems
 coherent. There is no hint that he is trying to hide anything. He lays it 
all out with animations,
white papers, etc. He is not the Lone Ranger wrt hydrinos, other scientists 
have duplicated his results.
 I will wait, anxiously, and see how this drama plays out. If he's able to 
do as he claims, well, the world
will be a lot better place. We'll be free of the control of Big Energy. I 
believe
that he will have to eventually overcome considerable outside interference 
to get his vision to the stage of actual
implementation. As far as I know, he is the only one who has made 
"extraordinary claims" to have gotten
as far he has with his technology. I do wish him and his colleagues all the 
best.

Peace, D. Mindock


- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water


> Howdy D, you seem to accept that the "hydrino" is real; that is, that 
> Mills has discovered a new
> form of matter- hydrogen with a never before seen energy state below the 
> know ground state. Well I'm
> going to hold my breath in anticipation. what is your prediction as to 
> when we will be powering the
> world? or even making the meter at his lab run backwards?
>
>
>
> D. Mindock wrote:
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>>
>>> I automatically reject anything which
>>>
>>> 1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
>>
>> I think you should be more open, but that's just my opinion. Appearing to 
>> violate the laws does
>> not imply that the laws were indeed violated. Sometimes closer inspection 
>> is needed. BTW, the
>> Fluctuation Theorem (extension/replacement of the 2nd Law) of Denis Evans 
>> allows, in nanoscale
>> systems, violations of the 2nd Law.
>>
>>> 2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
>>
>> Inventors are always afraid of someone stealing their ideas. Even the 
>> patent process can be
>> intercepted by special interests. It is a Catch-22.
>
> yes, but a catch-22 that charlatans have hidden behind for centuries.
>
>
>> Dr Randell Mills though has got his system of energy creation via 
>> hydrinos patented. He invites
>> any scientist to come to his facility and examine his prototypes. He 
>> offers unfettered access.
>> Some sceptics have stayed as long as a year and came away believers.
>>
>>> 3. doesn't currently sell power to the grid with the device, even though 
>>> claims are made of
>>> power production.
>
>  when he starts  selling power, I'll believe it. All it would take is to 
> build the mousetrap in a
> secret box, then connect it to the grid. From his discription I can't 
> imagine why a 100-man years of
> work are necessary- all he is doing is getting more energy out than put 
> in.  He heats a hydrogen
> plasma in the presence of a catalyst and claims he gets more out than in - 
> it should be a nobrainer,
> use the excess heat to boil water, turn a turbine and sell power.
>
>
>
>> Dr Mills wants to do that, put power on the grid. As to whether his 
>> hydrinos can power a car, he
>> is working on that. He's confident that it is possible.
>>
>>> I guess I just have a lower tolerance for fraud, or at least a higher 
>>> standard for proof.
>>
>> Well, why don't you go out to visit his facility? It could be an eye 
>> opener.
>
>
> no,no he is making extraordinary claims, so he is going to have a lot more 
> proof before I cross the
> street.  Have you invested in this miracle? here is the link:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> "Science is what we have learned about how to keep
> from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman
>
>> www.blacklightpower.org
>>
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>>
>>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>> Bob, You have your mind set already to reject this. This guy is a 
>>>> successful inventor and
>>>> businessman. Did you bother to read the wikipedia reference? I think 
>>>> not. You already know
>>>> it, right? If you did you'd have seen that energies are created that 
>>>> are not readily
>>>> explained. Things have changed from the 1970's, new discoveries are 
>>>> being made.
>>> sure, but the laws of thermodynamics is not one of those things that 
>>> have changed. toodles.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Peace, D. Mindock
&

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-16 Thread Paul S Cantrell

Marty,It's Ebay versus MercExchange:http://tinyurl.com/rc56kOn 5/16/06, Marty Phee <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:It's just a press release.  Doesn't mean anything.  Just something to
get people to invest in the company.Brigid Quinn, replying to Park for the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office,said, "We do not give patents on perpetual motion machines.  That thispatent was granted means it met the criteria that it is new, useful, and
non-obvious, and fully disclosed as to how it works."Never said that it's true and it works.  Just because it meets thepatent offices requirements doesn't mean anything.  Hell, what was thecompany that "invented" the "Buy It Now" button that Amazon is getting
sued over.-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switchWe don't know a millionth of one percent about anything. - Thomas A Edison
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-16 Thread Marty Phee

It's just a press release.  Doesn't mean anything.  Just something to
get people to invest in the company.  

Brigid Quinn, replying to Park for the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office,
said, "We do not give patents on perpetual motion machines.  That this
patent was granted means it met the criteria that it is new, useful, and
non-obvious, and fully disclosed as to how it works."

Never said that it's true and it works.  Just because it meets the
patent offices requirements doesn't mean anything.  Hell, what was the
company that "invented" the "Buy It Now" button that Amazon is getting
sued over.

M&K DuPree wrote:
> Bob, what do you think after reading this: 
> http://www.cheniere.org/misc/mills.htm ??? Mike DuPree
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>
>
>   
>> Howdy D, you seem to accept that the "hydrino" is real; that is, that 
>> Mills has discovered a new
>> form of matter- hydrogen with a never before seen energy state below the 
>> know ground state. Well I'm
>> going to hold my breath in anticipation. what is your prediction as to 
>> when we will be powering the
>> world? or even making the meter at his lab run backwards?
>>
>> 
>   

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-16 Thread Paul S Cantrell

The article is REALLY one-sided.  I'd like to know Stephen W. Hawking's opinion...Full text of the patent:http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6024935.html
or PDFhttp://www.freepatentsonline.com/6024935.pdfOn 5/16/06, M&K DuPree <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Bob, what do you think after reading this:
http://www.cheniere.org/misc/mills.htm ??? Mike DuPree-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch
We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything. - Thomas A Edison
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-16 Thread M&K DuPree

Bob, what do you think after reading this: 
http://www.cheniere.org/misc/mills.htm ??? Mike DuPree

- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water


> Howdy D, you seem to accept that the "hydrino" is real; that is, that 
> Mills has discovered a new
> form of matter- hydrogen with a never before seen energy state below the 
> know ground state. Well I'm
> going to hold my breath in anticipation. what is your prediction as to 
> when we will be powering the
> world? or even making the meter at his lab run backwards?
>
>
>
> D. Mindock wrote:
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>>
>>> I automatically reject anything which
>>>
>>> 1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
>>
>> I think you should be more open, but that's just my opinion. Appearing to 
>> violate the laws does
>> not imply that the laws were indeed violated. Sometimes closer inspection 
>> is needed. BTW, the
>> Fluctuation Theorem (extension/replacement of the 2nd Law) of Denis Evans 
>> allows, in nanoscale
>> systems, violations of the 2nd Law.
>>
>>> 2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
>>
>> Inventors are always afraid of someone stealing their ideas. Even the 
>> patent process can be
>> intercepted by special interests. It is a Catch-22.
>
> yes, but a catch-22 that charlatans have hidden behind for centuries.
>
>
>> Dr Randell Mills though has got his system of energy creation via 
>> hydrinos patented. He invites
>> any scientist to come to his facility and examine his prototypes. He 
>> offers unfettered access.
>> Some sceptics have stayed as long as a year and came away believers.
>>
>>> 3. doesn't currently sell power to the grid with the device, even though 
>>> claims are made of
>>> power production.
>
>  when he starts  selling power, I'll believe it. All it would take is to 
> build the mousetrap in a
> secret box, then connect it to the grid. From his discription I can't 
> imagine why a 100-man years of
> work are necessary- all he is doing is getting more energy out than put 
> in.  He heats a hydrogen
> plasma in the presence of a catalyst and claims he gets more out than in - 
> it should be a nobrainer,
> use the excess heat to boil water, turn a turbine and sell power.
>
>
>
>> Dr Mills wants to do that, put power on the grid. As to whether his 
>> hydrinos can power a car, he
>> is working on that. He's confident that it is possible.
>>
>>> I guess I just have a lower tolerance for fraud, or at least a higher 
>>> standard for proof.
>>
>> Well, why don't you go out to visit his facility? It could be an eye 
>> opener.
>
>
> no,no he is making extraordinary claims, so he is going to have a lot more 
> proof before I cross the
> street.  Have you invested in this miracle? here is the link:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> "Science is what we have learned about how to keep
> from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman
>
>> www.blacklightpower.org
>>
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>>
>>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>> Bob, You have your mind set already to reject this. This guy is a 
>>>> successful inventor and
>>>> businessman. Did you bother to read the wikipedia reference? I think 
>>>> not. You already know
>>>> it, right? If you did you'd have seen that energies are created that 
>>>> are not readily
>>>> explained. Things have changed from the 1970's, new discoveries are 
>>>> being made.
>>> sure, but the laws of thermodynamics is not one of those things that 
>>> have changed. toodles.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message - From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
>>>>  Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:26 AM 
>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw:
>>>> Car runs on water
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>>>> Bob, The inventor was quite adamant that over unity was being 
>>>>>> achieved in the early years
>>>>>> of development.
>>>>> overunity implies (to me anyway) that you get more energy out than you 
>>>>> put in.  If that is
>>>>> the case, why isn't this guy a bazzillionare?  why isn't he selling 
>>>&g

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-16 Thread bob allen

Howdy D, you seem to accept that the "hydrino" is real; that is, that Mills has 
discovered a new
form of matter- hydrogen with a never before seen energy state below the know 
ground state. Well I'm
going to hold my breath in anticipation. what is your prediction as to when we 
will be powering the
world? or even making the meter at his lab run backwards?



D. Mindock wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> 
>> I automatically reject anything which
>> 
>> 1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
> 
> I think you should be more open, but that's just my opinion. Appearing to 
> violate the laws does
> not imply that the laws were indeed violated. Sometimes closer inspection is 
> needed. BTW, the
> Fluctuation Theorem (extension/replacement of the 2nd Law) of Denis Evans 
> allows, in nanoscale
> systems, violations of the 2nd Law.
> 
>> 2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
> 
> Inventors are always afraid of someone stealing their ideas. Even the patent 
> process can be
> intercepted by special interests. It is a Catch-22.

yes, but a catch-22 that charlatans have hidden behind for centuries.


> Dr Randell Mills though has got his system of energy creation via hydrinos 
> patented. He invites
> any scientist to come to his facility and examine his prototypes. He offers 
> unfettered access.
> Some sceptics have stayed as long as a year and came away believers.
> 
>> 3. doesn't currently sell power to the grid with the device, even though 
>> claims are made of
>> power production.

  when he starts  selling power, I'll believe it. All it would take is to build 
the mousetrap in a
secret box, then connect it to the grid. From his discription I can't imagine 
why a 100-man years of 
work are necessary- all he is doing is getting more energy out than put in.  He 
heats a hydrogen 
plasma in the presence of a catalyst and claims he gets more out than in - it 
should be a nobrainer, 
use the excess heat to boil water, turn a turbine and sell power.



> Dr Mills wants to do that, put power on the grid. As to whether his hydrinos 
> can power a car, he 
> is working on that. He's confident that it is possible.
> 
>> I guess I just have a lower tolerance for fraud, or at least a higher 
>> standard for proof.
> 
> Well, why don't you go out to visit his facility? It could be an eye opener. 


no,no he is making extraordinary claims, so he is going to have a lot more 
proof before I cross the 
street.  Have you invested in this miracle? here is the link:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]


"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

> www.blacklightpower.org
> 
> Peace, D. Mindock
>> 
>> 
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>> Bob, You have your mind set already to reject this. This guy is a 
>>> successful inventor and
>>> businessman. Did you bother to read the wikipedia reference? I think not. 
>>> You already know
>>> it, right? If you did you'd have seen that energies are created that are 
>>> not readily
>>> explained. Things have changed from the 1970's, new discoveries are being 
>>> made.
>> sure, but the laws of thermodynamics is not one of those things that have 
>> changed. toodles.
>> 
>> 
>>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>> 
>>> 
>>> - Original Message - From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
>>>  Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:26 AM Subject: 
>>> Re: [Biofuel] Fw:
>>> Car runs on water
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>>> Bob, The inventor was quite adamant that over unity was being achieved in 
>>>>> the early years
>>>>> of development.
>>>> overunity implies (to me anyway) that you get more energy out than you put 
>>>> in.  If that is
>>>> the case, why isn't this guy a bazzillionare?  why isn't he selling power 
>>>> all over the
>>>> globe? I'll tell you why, 'cause it ain't so.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I think he stopped using this phrase so as not to be seen
>>>>> as a whacko (all breakthrough inventors are seen as such).
>>>> no, he stopped using it because he couldn't support the claim with real 
>>>> data.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> He was getting
>>>>> a lot of people interested but that was all. Anyway, some scientists have 
>>>>> found
>>>>> temperatures being generated through cavitation to be "off the charts". 
>>

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-15 Thread D. Mindock


Hi Bob,


>I automatically reject anything which
>
> 1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics

I think you should be more open, but that's just my opinion. Appearing to 
violate the laws does not imply
that the laws were indeed violated. Sometimes closer inspection is needed.
BTW, the Fluctuation Theorem (extension/replacement of the 2nd Law) of Denis 
Evans
allows, in nanoscale systems, violations of the 2nd Law.

> 2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.

Inventors are always afraid of someone stealing their ideas. Even the patent 
process can
be intercepted by special interests. It is a Catch-22.
Dr Randell Mills though has got his system of energy creation via hydrinos 
patented. He
invites any scientist to come to his facility and examine his prototypes. He 
offers unfettered
access. Some sceptics have stayed as long as a year and came away believers.

> 3. doesn't currently sell power to the grid with the device, even though 
> claims are made of power
>production.

Dr Mills wants to do that, put power on the grid. As to whether his hydrinos 
can power a car, he
is working on that. He's confident that it is possible.

>
> I guess I just have a lower tolerance for fraud, or at least a higher 
> standard for proof.

Well, why don't you go out to visit his facility? It could be an eye opener. 
www.blacklightpower.org

Peace, D. Mindock
>
>
>
> D. Mindock wrote:
>> Bob,
>>You have your mind set already to reject this. This guy
>> is a successful inventor and businessman.
>>   Did you bother to read the wikipedia reference? I think
>> not. You already know it, right? If you did you'd have seen
>> that energies are created that are not readily explained. Things
>> have changed from the 1970's, new discoveries are being
>> made.
>
> sure, but the laws of thermodynamics is not one of those things that have 
> changed.
> toodles.
>
>
>>   Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message - 
>> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:26 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>
>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>> Bob,
>>>> The inventor was
>>>> quite adamant that over unity was being achieved in the early years of
>>>> development.
>>> overunity implies (to me anyway) that you get more energy out than you 
>>> put
>>> in.  If that is the case,
>>> why isn't this guy a bazzillionare?  why isn't he selling power all over
>>> the globe? I'll tell you
>>> why, 'cause it ain't so.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think he stopped using this phrase so as not to be seen
>>>> as a whacko (all breakthrough inventors are seen as such).
>>> no, he stopped using it because he couldn't support the claim with real
>>> data.
>>>
>>>
>>>  He was getting
>>>> a lot of people interested but that was all.
>>>> Anyway, some
>>>> scientists have found temperatures being generated through cavitation 
>>>> to
>>>> be "off the charts". Something strange is going on.
>>> I don't see anything strange.  I say a lecture on the subject of the use
>>> sonoluminesence in the 70's
>>> up put energy in, and you get work -light and heat.
>>>
>>>  Everytime there is a
>>>> a dramatic change in physics, there are always those that think it is
>>>> blasphemy, for awhile. (Cold fusion is still under a dark cloud, but it
>>>> refuses
>>>> to go away. Wonder why?)
>>> because people want to believe that endless energy abounds just around 
>>> the
>>> corner?
>>>
>>>  Then as the science behind it becomes more widely
>>>> accepted, there is a rapid change towards acceptance. Sonoluminescence
>>>> is such a thing.
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminesence
>>> yes, but there is nothing magical or which violates any physical laws
>>> involved here.
>>>
>>>>   Temperatures of over a million degrees K. have been found inside
>>>> collapsing bubbles. Excerpt from wikipedia:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation
>>>>
>>>> Cavitating water purification devices have also been designed, in which
>>>> the
>>>> extreme conditions of cavitation can break down pollutants and organic
>>>> molecules. Spectral analysis of light emitted in sonochemical reactions
>>

[Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-15 Thread Keith Addison

Hello Chris

Discussed before, when it appeared:
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg55366.html
[Biofuel] Fuel can be made from dead cats
15 Sep 2005

And debunked - he didn't say it:
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg55439.html
[Biofuel] pussy makes car Purr - was a theoritical point
16 Sep 2005

Best

Keith


>Sorry Richard, but your cat usefulness law doesn't "hold water". 
>Here's evidence to the contrary:
>
>
>September 14, 2005
>
>FORGET DRILLING ANWR! HERE KITTY, KITTY...:
>
>index.html>Inventor fuels car with dead cats (Wednesday, September 
>14, 2005, Reuters via CNN)
>
>A German inventor has angered animal rights activists with his 
>answer to fighting the soaring cost of fuel -- dead cats.
>
>Christian Koch, 55, from the eastern county of Saxony, told Bild 
>newspaper that his organic diesel fuel -- a homemade blend of 
>garbage, run-over cats and other ingredients -- is a proven 
>alternative to normal consumer diesel.
>
>"I drive my normal diesel-powered car with this mixture," Koch said. 
>"I have gone 170,000 km (106,000 miles) without a problem."
>
>The best two-fer yet: Eliminate any need for higher gas taxes AND 
>the annoyance of cats in one fell swoop? Pinch me.
>
>Posted by John Resnick at September 14, 2005 06:25 PM


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[Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-15 Thread Chris Troeh




Sorry Richard, but your cat usefulness law doesn't 
"hold water".  Here's evidence to the contrary:
 

September 14, 2005

FORGET DRILLING ANWR! HERE KITTY, KITTY...:
Inventor fuels car with dead cats (Wednesday, September 
14, 2005, Reuters via CNN)

A German inventor has angered animal rights activists with his 
  answer to fighting the soaring cost of fuel -- dead cats. 
  
  Christian Koch, 55, from the eastern county of Saxony, told Bild newspaper 
  that his organic diesel fuel -- a homemade blend of garbage, run-over cats and 
  other ingredients -- is a proven alternative to normal consumer diesel.
  "I drive my normal diesel-powered car with this mixture," Koch said. "I 
  have gone 170,000 km (106,000 miles) without a problem." 

The best two-fer yet: Eliminate any need for higher gas taxes AND the 
annoyance of cats in one fell swoop? Pinch me.Posted by John Resnick at September 14, 2005 06:25 PM 

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-14 Thread Richard Littrell





Dear John,

Your cat powered car violates an even more basic law than
thermodynamics.  This is the law that states that a cat will never do
anything even remotely useful to humans unless it wants to and that
such occasions are both never predicable and very rare. 

Rick

John Beale wrote:

  Oh, and another thing:

There was an episode of Chip 'N Dale Rescue Rangers that I remember  
from my childhood where the villain, an evil genius (of course), plots  
to take over the city using a device that is powered by static  
electricity that he derives from cats' fur. He captured the cats and  
used gigantic mechanical arms equipped with brushes that functioned in  
a sort of scrubbing motion to charge up the static electricity. Perhaps  
someone should try to make a car run off cat fur.

I'd like to hear what Daniel Dingel has to say about this idea.

hah
-John





On May 13, 2006, at 10:13 AM, bob allen wrote:

  
  
I automatically reject anything which

1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
3. doesn't currently sell power to the grid with the device, even  
though claims are made of power

production.

I guess I just have a lower tolerance for fraud, or at least a higher  
standard for proof.



D. Mindock wrote:


  Bob,
   You have your mind set already to reject this. This guy
is a successful inventor and businessman.
  Did you bother to read the wikipedia reference? I think
not. You already know it, right? If you did you'd have seen
that energies are created that are not readily explained. Things
have changed from the 1970's, new discoveries are being
made.
  

sure, but the laws of thermodynamics is not one of those things that  
have changed.
toodles.




Peace, D. Mindock


- Original Message -
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water


  
  
D. Mindock wrote:


  Bob,
The inventor was
quite adamant that over unity was being achieved in the early years  
of
development.
  

overunity implies (to me anyway) that you get more energy out than  
you put
in.  If that is the case,
why isn't this guy a bazzillionare?  why isn't he selling power all  
over
the globe? I'll tell you
why, 'cause it ain't so.


I think he stopped using this phrase so as not to be seen


  as a whacko (all breakthrough inventors are seen as such).
  

no, he stopped using it because he couldn't support the claim with  
real
data.


 He was getting


  a lot of people interested but that was all.
Anyway, some
scientists have found temperatures being generated through  
cavitation to
be "off the charts". Something strange is going on.
  

I don't see anything strange.  I say a lecture on the subject of the  
use
sonoluminesence in the 70's
up put energy in, and you get work -light and heat.

 Everytime there is a


  a dramatic change in physics, there are always those that think it  
is
blasphemy, for awhile. (Cold fusion is still under a dark cloud,  
but it
refuses
to go away. Wonder why?)
  

because people want to believe that endless energy abounds just  
around the
corner?

 Then as the science behind it becomes more widely


  accepted, there is a rapid change towards acceptance.  
Sonoluminescence
is such a thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminesence
  

yes, but there is nothing magical or which violates any physical laws
involved here.



Temperatures of over a million degrees K. have been found inside
collapsing bubbles. Excerpt from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation

Cavitating water purification devices have also been designed, in  
which
the
extreme conditions of cavitation can break down pollutants and  
organic
molecules. Spectral analysis of light emitted in sonochemical  
reactions
reveal chemical and plasma based mechanisms of energy transfer. The  
light
emitted from cavitation bubbles is termed sonoluminesence.
  

sonochemistry and sonoluminesence have been around for years, big  
deal



  Peace, D. Mindock  P.S. Now the term "bubble fusion" is entering the
lexicon
of physics.
  

along with N-rays, polywater, over-unity devices?



  - Original Message -----
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water


  
  
there is a big difference in the process of

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-13 Thread John Beale

I want to put in my two cents before this topic is lost forever...

Okay, first of all, I think this car is bunk. Completely bunk.

It obviously violates the laws of thermodynamics. The first issue here 
is that people will believe that water can be dumped into an engine and 
run a car because they want to believe it. They don't want to go to the 
pump and pay $50 to drive to work a few times. The other issue is that 
most people couldn't tell you what thermodynamics is. Seriously, go to 
Wal-Mart and walk up to someone and ask them to explain thermodynamics 
to you. If they bother to pay attention to you, they'll either respond 
with a resounding "huh?!" or tell you to get lost.

One person a couple of days ago said that they had thought of this idea 
when they were in 6th grade and then learned that it was impossible. I 
was one of those 6th graders also and my engineer father was the bearer 
of bad news. For the case of other people who don't have an engineer 
for a father and a scientist mother, see the previous paragraph.

Now, I agree with this:
"I automatically reject anything which:
1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
3. doesn't currently sell power to the grid with the device, even 
though claims are made of power production. I guess I just have a lower 
tolerance for fraud, or at least a higher standard for proof."
My kudos go to Bob Allen.

Next, not only will this water require electrolysis, but it would also 
have to be distilled! Sea water is not just NaCl and water. It contains 
all kinds of plankton and fish parts and whatnot. It would have to be 
filtered, then distilled -- then comes the electrolysis. Thus, if he 
didn't maintain a constant pressure of hydrogen in the car, it would 
take much more than his 5 seconds that he claims it takes to start the 
car. In fact, it would be wise to distill even the tap water, because 
it is likely to contain flouride (in the USA, anyway), chloride, lead 
(hopefully not), iron, copper, bacteria, etc etc etc. So his claim that 
he can just do the electrolysis of any water is very shortsighted 
indeed.

My girlfriend is calling me to bed. Good night folks.
-John

On May 13, 2006, at 10:13 AM, bob allen wrote:

> I automatically reject anything which
>
> 1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
> 2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
> 3. doesn't currently sell power to the grid with the device, even 
> though claims are made of power
>
> production.
>
> I guess I just have a lower tolerance for fraud, or at least a higher 
> standard for proof.

___
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-13 Thread John Beale

Oh, and another thing:

There was an episode of Chip 'N Dale Rescue Rangers that I remember  
from my childhood where the villain, an evil genius (of course), plots  
to take over the city using a device that is powered by static  
electricity that he derives from cats' fur. He captured the cats and  
used gigantic mechanical arms equipped with brushes that functioned in  
a sort of scrubbing motion to charge up the static electricity. Perhaps  
someone should try to make a car run off cat fur.

I'd like to hear what Daniel Dingel has to say about this idea.

hah
-John





On May 13, 2006, at 10:13 AM, bob allen wrote:

> I automatically reject anything which
>
> 1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
> 2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
> 3. doesn't currently sell power to the grid with the device, even  
> though claims are made of power
>
> production.
>
> I guess I just have a lower tolerance for fraud, or at least a higher  
> standard for proof.
>
>
>
> D. Mindock wrote:
>> Bob,
>>You have your mind set already to reject this. This guy
>> is a successful inventor and businessman.
>>   Did you bother to read the wikipedia reference? I think
>> not. You already know it, right? If you did you'd have seen
>> that energies are created that are not readily explained. Things
>> have changed from the 1970's, new discoveries are being
>> made.
>
> sure, but the laws of thermodynamics is not one of those things that  
> have changed.
> toodles.
>
>
>>   Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:26 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>
>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>> Bob,
>>>> The inventor was
>>>> quite adamant that over unity was being achieved in the early years  
>>>> of
>>>> development.
>>> overunity implies (to me anyway) that you get more energy out than  
>>> you put
>>> in.  If that is the case,
>>> why isn't this guy a bazzillionare?  why isn't he selling power all  
>>> over
>>> the globe? I'll tell you
>>> why, 'cause it ain't so.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think he stopped using this phrase so as not to be seen
>>>> as a whacko (all breakthrough inventors are seen as such).
>>> no, he stopped using it because he couldn't support the claim with  
>>> real
>>> data.
>>>
>>>
>>>  He was getting
>>>> a lot of people interested but that was all.
>>>> Anyway, some
>>>> scientists have found temperatures being generated through  
>>>> cavitation to
>>>> be "off the charts". Something strange is going on.
>>> I don't see anything strange.  I say a lecture on the subject of the  
>>> use
>>> sonoluminesence in the 70's
>>> up put energy in, and you get work -light and heat.
>>>
>>>  Everytime there is a
>>>> a dramatic change in physics, there are always those that think it  
>>>> is
>>>> blasphemy, for awhile. (Cold fusion is still under a dark cloud,  
>>>> but it
>>>> refuses
>>>> to go away. Wonder why?)
>>> because people want to believe that endless energy abounds just  
>>> around the
>>> corner?
>>>
>>>  Then as the science behind it becomes more widely
>>>> accepted, there is a rapid change towards acceptance.  
>>>> Sonoluminescence
>>>> is such a thing.
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminesence
>>> yes, but there is nothing magical or which violates any physical laws
>>> involved here.
>>>
>>>>   Temperatures of over a million degrees K. have been found inside
>>>> collapsing bubbles. Excerpt from wikipedia:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation
>>>>
>>>> Cavitating water purification devices have also been designed, in  
>>>> which
>>>> the
>>>> extreme conditions of cavitation can break down pollutants and  
>>>> organic
>>>> molecules. Spectral analysis of light emitted in sonochemical  
>>>> reactions
>>>> reveal chemical and plasma based mechanisms of energy transfer. The  
>>>> light
>>>> emitted from cavitation bubbles is termed sonoluminesence.
>>> sonochemistry a

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-13 Thread bob allen

I automatically reject anything which

1. appears to violate extremely simple laws of thermodynamics
2. is supported by testimonial, rather than hard data.
3. doesn't currently sell power to the grid with the device, even though claims 
are made of power 

production.

I guess I just have a lower tolerance for fraud, or at least a higher standard 
for proof.



D. Mindock wrote:
> Bob,
>You have your mind set already to reject this. This guy
> is a successful inventor and businessman.
>   Did you bother to read the wikipedia reference? I think
> not. You already know it, right? If you did you'd have seen
> that energies are created that are not readily explained. Things
> have changed from the 1970's, new discoveries are being
> made.

sure, but the laws of thermodynamics is not one of those things that have 
changed.
toodles.


>   Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
> 
> 
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>> Bob,
>>> The inventor was
>>> quite adamant that over unity was being achieved in the early years of
>>> development.
>> overunity implies (to me anyway) that you get more energy out than you put 
>> in.  If that is the case,
>> why isn't this guy a bazzillionare?  why isn't he selling power all over 
>> the globe? I'll tell you
>> why, 'cause it ain't so.
>>
>>
>> I think he stopped using this phrase so as not to be seen
>>> as a whacko (all breakthrough inventors are seen as such).
>> no, he stopped using it because he couldn't support the claim with real 
>> data.
>>
>>
>>  He was getting
>>> a lot of people interested but that was all.
>>> Anyway, some
>>> scientists have found temperatures being generated through cavitation to
>>> be "off the charts". Something strange is going on.
>> I don't see anything strange.  I say a lecture on the subject of the use 
>> sonoluminesence in the 70's
>> up put energy in, and you get work -light and heat.
>>
>>  Everytime there is a
>>> a dramatic change in physics, there are always those that think it is
>>> blasphemy, for awhile. (Cold fusion is still under a dark cloud, but it
>>> refuses
>>> to go away. Wonder why?)
>> because people want to believe that endless energy abounds just around the 
>> corner?
>>
>>  Then as the science behind it becomes more widely
>>> accepted, there is a rapid change towards acceptance. Sonoluminescence
>>> is such a thing.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminesence
>> yes, but there is nothing magical or which violates any physical laws 
>> involved here.
>>
>>>   Temperatures of over a million degrees K. have been found inside
>>> collapsing bubbles. Excerpt from wikipedia:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation
>>>
>>> Cavitating water purification devices have also been designed, in which 
>>> the
>>> extreme conditions of cavitation can break down pollutants and organic
>>> molecules. Spectral analysis of light emitted in sonochemical reactions
>>> reveal chemical and plasma based mechanisms of energy transfer. The light
>>> emitted from cavitation bubbles is termed sonoluminesence.
>> sonochemistry and sonoluminesence have been around for years, big deal
>>
>>> Peace, D. Mindock  P.S. Now the term "bubble fusion" is entering the 
>>> lexicon
>>> of physics.
>> along with N-rays, polywater, over-unity devices?
>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:52 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>>
>>>
>>>> there is a big difference in the process of heating a liquid via
>>>> ultrasonic energy input (NOTE
>>>> ENERGY INPUT) and claiming to extract energy from nowhere.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>>> Dingel says he wants the money from his inventions to go directly
>>>>> to the people of the Phillipines. If he were a charlatan he would want
>>>>> the money for himself and then disappear with it. IMO, I think he's
>>>>> got something and I hope he finds a foundation, investor, etc., he
>>>>> trusts enough to get his technology tweaked & mass pro

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-13 Thread chris davidson

it seems sea water (or possibly even grey water) could possibly leave behind evaporite deposits.i don't know how these systems work though, or whether the water is actually evaporated, but i had assumed that clean water would be needed. salt water could be theway to go...?-chris Message: 2Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 22:48:12 +From: "Terry Dyck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on waterTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgMessage-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowedIf you can use grey water or
 salt water there would not be a problem.  If the water used has to be clean drinkable water there is a problem.Terry Dyck>From: chris davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water>Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:14:57 -0700 (PDT)>>Another issue concerning the Car Powered by Water: Even if the  invention >works as he claims it does, i don't think water is the answer  for a fuel >source for cars. Yeah, it has basically no pollution and  all, but what >would happen
 to the water supply when everbody and their  mom wants to >"fill up"? I think most of us know what a valuable  resource water is, and >the pressing concerns for its availability in  the coming years. Irrigation >for crops and feed crops already consumes  approx 85%-90% of the industrial >water usage of the water supply (40%  of that comes from groundwater >tables) -and a lot of that is lost to  evaporation/transpiration. Just a >thought...>   -Chris  ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-12 Thread JJJN

Hmmm,  I don't think we have much to worry about from a car that breaks 
natural laws... but if we did and we all converted to the 
rascals and they did work - what would all that water vapor do in 
the atmosphere? more rain?  I think the fueling stations should be down 
stream of the waste water treatment plants that discharge water into the 
river for the next town to enjoy.  Ok now what happens when all the coal 
is converted to Electricity to convert water to hydrogen for fill 
stations for fuel cells and they all produce H2O into the air as a vapor 
- will that mean muggy for Arizona? Any chance that the coal smoke 
combining with the water vapor would make acid rain?  I think I like 
Vodka better than water. (but negawatts is better yet)

Sorry but I just don't buy the whole idea of this car and somthing for 
nothing.

Chris makes a good point and I like to see people thinking  into the  
"what happens when zone" before grasping at something for nothing.  
Ghandi said it all when he said "Live simply so that others may simply live"

My best,
Jim


Terry Dyck wrote:

>If you can use grey water or salt water there would not be a problem.  If 
>the water used has to be clean drinkable water there is a problem.
>
>Terry Dyck
>
>
>  
>
>>From: chris davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:14:57 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>Another issue concerning the Car Powered by Water: Even if the  invention 
>>works as he claims it does, i don't think water is the answer  for a fuel 
>>source for cars. Yeah, it has basically no pollution and  all, but what 
>>would happen to the water supply when everbody and their  mom wants to 
>>"fill up"? I think most of us know what a valuable  resource water is, and 
>>the pressing concerns for its availability in  the coming years. Irrigation 
>>for crops and feed crops already consumes  approx 85%-90% of the industrial 
>>water usage of the water supply (40%  of that comes from groundwater 
>>tables) -and a lot of that is lost to  evaporation/transpiration. Just a 
>>thought...
>>  -Chris
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>  
>
>>___
>>Biofuel mailing list
>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>>messages):
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
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>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>  
>

___
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-12 Thread Terry Dyck

If you can use grey water or salt water there would not be a problem.  If 
the water used has to be clean drinkable water there is a problem.

Terry Dyck


>From: chris davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:14:57 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Another issue concerning the Car Powered by Water: Even if the  invention 
>works as he claims it does, i don't think water is the answer  for a fuel 
>source for cars. Yeah, it has basically no pollution and  all, but what 
>would happen to the water supply when everbody and their  mom wants to 
>"fill up"? I think most of us know what a valuable  resource water is, and 
>the pressing concerns for its availability in  the coming years. Irrigation 
>for crops and feed crops already consumes  approx 85%-90% of the industrial 
>water usage of the water supply (40%  of that comes from groundwater 
>tables) -and a lot of that is lost to  evaporation/transpiration. Just a 
>thought...
>   -Chris
>


>___
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>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
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>
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-12 Thread Joe Street

Nobody since the '70's has broken the laws of physics as far as I know. 
There is always an explanation. Even those dudes that made light go 
faster than the speed of lightwell it IS the speed of light in a 
medium with a refractive index less than one, so no law was actually 
violated. New technologies can allow exploitation of those laws in 
different ways to be sure and there should always be a sense of optimism 
but I believe it is and always will be true that there is no free lunch.

Joe

D. Mindock wrote:
> Bob,
>You have your mind set already to reject this. This guy
> is a successful inventor and businessman.
>   Did you bother to read the wikipedia reference? I think
> not. You already know it, right? If you did you'd have seen
> that energies are created that are not readily explained. Things
> have changed from the 1970's, new discoveries are being
> made.
>   Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
> 
> 
> 
>>D. Mindock wrote:
>>
>>>Bob,
>>>The inventor was
>>>quite adamant that over unity was being achieved in the early years of
>>>development.
>>
>>overunity implies (to me anyway) that you get more energy out than you put 
>>in.  If that is the case,
>>why isn't this guy a bazzillionare?  why isn't he selling power all over 
>>the globe? I'll tell you
>>why, 'cause it ain't so.
>>
>>
>>I think he stopped using this phrase so as not to be seen
>>
>>>as a whacko (all breakthrough inventors are seen as such).
>>
>>no, he stopped using it because he couldn't support the claim with real 
>>data.
>>
>>
>> He was getting
>>
>>>a lot of people interested but that was all.
>>>Anyway, some
>>>scientists have found temperatures being generated through cavitation to
>>>be "off the charts". Something strange is going on.
>>
>>I don't see anything strange.  I say a lecture on the subject of the use 
>>sonoluminesence in the 70's
>>up put energy in, and you get work -light and heat.
>>
>> Everytime there is a
>>
>>>a dramatic change in physics, there are always those that think it is
>>>blasphemy, for awhile. (Cold fusion is still under a dark cloud, but it
>>>refuses
>>>to go away. Wonder why?)
>>
>>because people want to believe that endless energy abounds just around the 
>>corner?
>>
>> Then as the science behind it becomes more widely
>>
>>>accepted, there is a rapid change towards acceptance. Sonoluminescence
>>>is such a thing.
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminesence
>>
>>yes, but there is nothing magical or which violates any physical laws 
>>involved here.
>>
>>
>>>  Temperatures of over a million degrees K. have been found inside
>>>collapsing bubbles. Excerpt from wikipedia:
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation
>>>
>>>Cavitating water purification devices have also been designed, in which 
>>>the
>>>extreme conditions of cavitation can break down pollutants and organic
>>>molecules. Spectral analysis of light emitted in sonochemical reactions
>>>reveal chemical and plasma based mechanisms of energy transfer. The light
>>>emitted from cavitation bubbles is termed sonoluminesence.
>>
>>sonochemistry and sonoluminesence have been around for years, big deal
>>
>>
>>>Peace, D. Mindock  P.S. Now the term "bubble fusion" is entering the 
>>>lexicon
>>>of physics.
>>
>>along with N-rays, polywater, over-unity devices?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>- Original Message - 
>>>From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: 
>>>Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:52 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>there is a big difference in the process of heating a liquid via
>>>>ultrasonic energy input (NOTE
>>>>ENERGY INPUT) and claiming to extract energy from nowhere.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>D. Mindock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Dingel says he wants the money from his inventions to go directly
>>>>>to the people of the Phillipines. If he were a charlatan he would want
>>>>>the money for himself and then disappear with it. IMO, I think he's
>>>&

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-12 Thread D. Mindock

Bob,
   You have your mind set already to reject this. This guy
is a successful inventor and businessman.
  Did you bother to read the wikipedia reference? I think
not. You already know it, right? If you did you'd have seen
that energies are created that are not readily explained. Things
have changed from the 1970's, new discoveries are being
made.
  Peace, D. Mindock


- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water


> D. Mindock wrote:
>> Bob,
>> The inventor was
>> quite adamant that over unity was being achieved in the early years of
>> development.
>
> overunity implies (to me anyway) that you get more energy out than you put 
> in.  If that is the case,
> why isn't this guy a bazzillionare?  why isn't he selling power all over 
> the globe? I'll tell you
> why, 'cause it ain't so.
>
>
> I think he stopped using this phrase so as not to be seen
>> as a whacko (all breakthrough inventors are seen as such).
>
> no, he stopped using it because he couldn't support the claim with real 
> data.
>
>
>  He was getting
>> a lot of people interested but that was all.
>> Anyway, some
>> scientists have found temperatures being generated through cavitation to
>> be "off the charts". Something strange is going on.
>
> I don't see anything strange.  I say a lecture on the subject of the use 
> sonoluminesence in the 70's
> up put energy in, and you get work -light and heat.
>
>  Everytime there is a
>> a dramatic change in physics, there are always those that think it is
>> blasphemy, for awhile. (Cold fusion is still under a dark cloud, but it
>> refuses
>> to go away. Wonder why?)
>
> because people want to believe that endless energy abounds just around the 
> corner?
>
>  Then as the science behind it becomes more widely
>> accepted, there is a rapid change towards acceptance. Sonoluminescence
>> is such a thing.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminesence
>
> yes, but there is nothing magical or which violates any physical laws 
> involved here.
>
>>
>>   Temperatures of over a million degrees K. have been found inside
>> collapsing bubbles. Excerpt from wikipedia:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation
>>
>> Cavitating water purification devices have also been designed, in which 
>> the
>> extreme conditions of cavitation can break down pollutants and organic
>> molecules. Spectral analysis of light emitted in sonochemical reactions
>> reveal chemical and plasma based mechanisms of energy transfer. The light
>> emitted from cavitation bubbles is termed sonoluminesence.
>
> sonochemistry and sonoluminesence have been around for years, big deal
>
>>
>> Peace, D. Mindock  P.S. Now the term "bubble fusion" is entering the 
>> lexicon
>> of physics.
>
> along with N-rays, polywater, over-unity devices?
>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>
>>
>>> there is a big difference in the process of heating a liquid via
>>> ultrasonic energy input (NOTE
>>> ENERGY INPUT) and claiming to extract energy from nowhere.
>>>
>>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>> Dingel says he wants the money from his inventions to go directly
>>>> to the people of the Phillipines. If he were a charlatan he would want
>>>> the money for himself and then disappear with it. IMO, I think he's
>>>> got something and I hope he finds a foundation, investor, etc., he
>>>> trusts enough to get his technology tweaked & mass produced. But the
>>>> chances
>>>> are slim at best. It is the same with other inventors like him. One
>>>> exception,
>>>> (there may be others?) from Rome, Georgia, stopped using the phrase 
>>>> "over
>>>> unity" and
>>>> was able to get his product which uses cavitation to heat up
>>>> water, to market. He's now got a successful business going.
>>>> But if he were using this to power cars, which he doesn't, I doubt
>>>> if he would be in business. See: http://www.hydrodynamics.com/
>>>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message - 
>>>> From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-12 Thread bob allen

D. Mindock wrote:
> Bob,
> The inventor was
> quite adamant that over unity was being achieved in the early years of
> development. 

overunity implies (to me anyway) that you get more energy out than you put in.  
If that is the case, 
why isn't this guy a bazzillionare?  why isn't he selling power all over the 
globe? I'll tell you 
why, 'cause it ain't so.


I think he stopped using this phrase so as not to be seen
> as a whacko (all breakthrough inventors are seen as such).

no, he stopped using it because he couldn't support the claim with real data.


  He was getting
> a lot of people interested but that was all.
> Anyway, some
> scientists have found temperatures being generated through cavitation to
> be "off the charts". Something strange is going on.

I don't see anything strange.  I say a lecture on the subject of the use 
sonoluminesence in the 70's
up put energy in, and you get work -light and heat.

  Everytime there is a
> a dramatic change in physics, there are always those that think it is
> blasphemy, for awhile. (Cold fusion is still under a dark cloud, but it 
> refuses
> to go away. Wonder why?)

because people want to believe that endless energy abounds just around the 
corner?

  Then as the science behind it becomes more widely
> accepted, there is a rapid change towards acceptance. Sonoluminescence
> is such a thing.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminesence

yes, but there is nothing magical or which violates any physical laws involved 
here.

> 
>   Temperatures of over a million degrees K. have been found inside
> collapsing bubbles. Excerpt from wikipedia: 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation
> 
> Cavitating water purification devices have also been designed, in which the 
> extreme conditions of cavitation can break down pollutants and organic 
> molecules. Spectral analysis of light emitted in sonochemical reactions 
> reveal chemical and plasma based mechanisms of energy transfer. The light 
> emitted from cavitation bubbles is termed sonoluminesence.

sonochemistry and sonoluminesence have been around for years, big deal

> 
> Peace, D. Mindock  P.S. Now the term "bubble fusion" is entering the lexicon 
> of physics.

along with N-rays, polywater, over-unity devices?

> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
> 
> 
>> there is a big difference in the process of heating a liquid via 
>> ultrasonic energy input (NOTE
>> ENERGY INPUT) and claiming to extract energy from nowhere.
>>
>>
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>> Dingel says he wants the money from his inventions to go directly
>>> to the people of the Phillipines. If he were a charlatan he would want
>>> the money for himself and then disappear with it. IMO, I think he's
>>> got something and I hope he finds a foundation, investor, etc., he
>>> trusts enough to get his technology tweaked & mass produced. But the 
>>> chances
>>> are slim at best. It is the same with other inventors like him. One
>>> exception,
>>> (there may be others?) from Rome, Georgia, stopped using the phrase "over
>>> unity" and
>>> was able to get his product which uses cavitation to heat up
>>> water, to market. He's now got a successful business going.
>>> But if he were using this to power cars, which he doesn't, I doubt
>>> if he would be in business. See: http://www.hydrodynamics.com/
>>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:48 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>>
>>>
>>>> miki de mla wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I guess we just have to see the gadget to believe his claims...
>>>> Be skeptical.  Eyes can be deceived.
>>>>
>>>> robert luis rabello
>>>> "The Edge of Justice"
>>>> Adventure for Your Mind
>>>> http://www.newadventure.ca
>>>>
>>>> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
>>>> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ___
>>> Biofuel mailing list
>>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>>
>>> Biofuel at Journe

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-12 Thread Frantz DESPREZ

aquafuel : 13 % water added to diesel or biodiesel:
works in every diesel engine.

i.e:
http://www.aquazole.com/en/index.htm

up to 75 % water in a pantone engine ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Pantone


frantz

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-12 Thread lres1

Be skeptical with a very open mind, the mind and eyes can all be deceived.

Patent office closing due to lack of patents early last century.

Ships at sea can only get to 28Knots, "the stone wall effect" limit until
multi hulls came along and other variances. Now we get 80 + knots

The sound barrier can't be broken.

Saw a lawn mower running on oxygen, turned out to be acting similar to
compressed air to run like a steam engine. No pollution from the engine
though? Bit of a loss though as the oxygen had to be compressed as
industrial oxygen into heavy bottles.

The list goes on, me I try to figure and experiment to see what is possible
when a new idea comes up. Be skeptical with an open mind and thought
processing. There are many fronts in a scientific and industrial world that
could never be broken that over time have.

Be durned sure interesting to see a fair evaluation by an independent
skeptic with an open mind.

Doug.

- Original Message - 
From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

> miki de mla wrote:
>
>
> > I guess we just have to see the gadget to believe his claims...
>
> Be skeptical.  Eyes can be deceived.
>
> robert luis rabello
> "The Edge of Justice"
> Adventure for Your Mind
> http://www.newadventure.ca
>
> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>
>
>
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messages):
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>
>
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> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by Lao Telecom MailScanner with NOD32, and is
> believed to be clean.

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-12 Thread D. Mindock

Chris,
Dingel claims his car can
use sea water, so no problem.
I'd like to say that Dingel isn't worth
the effort but can't
since he just might have something. It'd
be better to find
other inventors that only want help to
get their tech tweaked
and to the masses and bypass
Dingel.
What the problem is
that there are those
that want the status quo and will stop
those that have radical
devices that will free people from
dependence on Big Energy.
Even our earth friendly home-brew
biodiesel would be stopped
if it ever reaches a threshold where it
can't be tolerated. Big
Oil has way too much power over
governments.
I wish Dingel well, but his tech might be
just a parlor trick.
We won't know for sure till it is checked
by real
scientists in an in-depth
way.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message -
From:
chris
davidson
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:14
AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on
water
Another issue concerning the Car Powered by Water: Even if the
invention works as he claims it does, i don't think water is the answer for a
fuel source for cars. Yeah, it has basically no pollution and all, but what
would happen to the water supply when everbody and their mom wants to "fill
up"? I think most of us know what a valuable resource water is, and the
pressing concerns for its availability in the coming years. Irrigation for
crops and feed crops already consumes approx 85%-90% of the industrial water
usage of the water supply (40% of that comes from groundwater tables) -and a
lot of that is lost to evaporation/transpiration. Just a
thought...-Chris

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-12 Thread D. Mindock

Dingel needs to get some open minded, no agenda except truth,
scientists to examine his technology, once and for all.
He's being too cautious & secretive. Patience will run out with him. He
could be someone who likes the limelight but has nothing
real to offer. Anyway there are others who do have promising
technology and are much more forthcoming than Dingel. Some have
no aim to gain wealth for themselves or anyone else and have self-developed 
their technology.
It is offered to all interested. Is it ready for prime time? I
can't say. The info is scattered all over the web. I am not really
set up to do experimentation. My knowledge of physics/math has faded.
I do have a B.S. in Atmospheric Science but it was largely never
used. Heck, my wife won't allow me to
do the tried and true biodiesel chemistry in the garage, the only
place I can do it. I need a place out in the boonies, not in suburbia.
   If interested in alt energy, google:
Joe Cell  (energy cell developed by Joe X of Australia. Joe is 
incognito because of threats)
hydrino, (hydrogen whose electron has moved to a lower ground state 
than predicted by quantum mechanics(QM),
  which is different from the classical quantum 
mechanics (CQM) used by Blacklight to explain the
  existence of the hydrino whose electron can exist at 
1/20th of QM's ground state orbit.)
blacklight (Blacklight is a company developing products based on 
hydrinos)
Tom Bearden (inventor, scientist)
 Robert Adams inventor
for starters.
  As far as I can tell, Lutec, remember them?, has run into major
hurdles and are stopped in their tracks. An inventor named Robert Adams
from New Zealand has claimed that they infringed heavily on his
patents, for one thing.
Peace to all, D. Mindock  P.S. Also see:
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/Nov62005/index210262005115.asp
about the hydrino, the inventor Dr. Randy Mills, and his company called 
Blacklight Power.

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

> "Some feedback about my visit to Daniel Dingel"
> http://2oo5.free.fr/dd/
>
> "Personnally, from what I was able to see, I'm sad to say that the
> car of Daniel DINGEL doesn't run on water."
>
>
>>there is a big difference in the process of heating a liquid via
>>ultrasonic energy input (NOTE
>>ENERGY INPUT) and claiming to extract energy from nowhere.
>>
>>
>>D. Mindock wrote:
>> > Dingel says he wants the money from his inventions to go directly
>> > to the people of the Phillipines. If he were a charlatan he would want
>> > the money for himself and then disappear with it. IMO, I think he's
>> > got something and I hope he finds a foundation, investor, etc., he
>> > trusts enough to get his technology tweaked & mass produced. But
>>the chances
>> > are slim at best. It is the same with other inventors like him. One
>> > exception,
>> > (there may be others?) from Rome, Georgia, stopped using the phrase 
>> > "over
>> > unity" and
>> > was able to get his product which uses cavitation to heat up
>> > water, to market. He's now got a successful business going.
>> > But if he were using this to power cars, which he doesn't, I doubt
>> > if he would be in business. See: http://www.hydrodynamics.com/
>> > Peace, D. Mindock
>> >
>> >
>> > - Original Message -
>> > From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: 
>> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:48 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>> >
>> >
>> >> miki de mla wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> I guess we just have to see the gadget to believe his claims...
>> >> Be skeptical.  Eyes can be deceived.
>> >>
>> >> robert luis rabello
>> >> "The Edge of Justice"
>> >> Adventure for Your Mind
>> >> http://www.newadventure.ca
>> >>
>> >> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
>> >> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>> >>
>>--
>>Bob Allen
>>http://ozarker.org/bob
>>
>>"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
>>from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-12 Thread Keith Addison

>An item I read of late that turned up on my PC suggests figures, 
>"Only about 1.6 percent of the water on Earth is fresh. Most of it 
>is locked, unusable for living things, in snow and the ice at the 
>poles and on the peaks of the highest mountains."
>
>Doug.

http://snipurl.com/qcpd
Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste
"Water is a vast, wordwide crisis. It's killing lots of people."

Next message:

"This was a great summary.  Takes a lot of work.  I forwarded it to
several people who have expressed interest to me in water-specific
issues.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the people I
forwarded it to, an editor of an online mag, would want to publish it,
in effect."

Lots of info, from a few years ago, it's worse now.

Best

Keith

>Another issue concerning the Car Powered by Water: Even if the 
>invention works as he claims it does, i don't think water is the 
>answer for a fuel source for cars. Yeah, it has basically no 
>pollution and all, but what would happen to the water supply when 
>everbody and their mom wants to "fill up"? I think most of us know 
>what a valuable resource water is, and the pressing concerns for its 
>availability in the coming years. Irrigation for crops and feed 
>crops already consumes approx 85%-90% of the industrial water usage 
>of the water supply (40% of that comes from groundwater tables) -and 
>a lot of that is lost to evaporation/transpiration. Just a thought...
>-Chris
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-11 Thread D. Mindock

Bob,
The inventor was
quite adamant that over unity was being achieved in the early years of
development. I think he stopped using this phrase so as not to be seen
as a whacko (all breakthrough inventors are seen as such). He was getting
a lot of people interested but that was all.
Anyway, some
scientists have found temperatures being generated through cavitation to
be "off the charts". Something strange is going on. Everytime there is a
a dramatic change in physics, there are always those that think it is
blasphemy, for awhile. (Cold fusion is still under a dark cloud, but it 
refuses
to go away. Wonder why?) Then as the science behind it becomes more widely
accepted, there is a rapid change towards acceptance. Sonoluminescence
is such a thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminesence

  Temperatures of over a million degrees K. have been found inside
collapsing bubbles. Excerpt from wikipedia: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation

Cavitating water purification devices have also been designed, in which the 
extreme conditions of cavitation can break down pollutants and organic 
molecules. Spectral analysis of light emitted in sonochemical reactions 
reveal chemical and plasma based mechanisms of energy transfer. The light 
emitted from cavitation bubbles is termed sonoluminesence.

Peace, D. Mindock  P.S. Now the term "bubble fusion" is entering the lexicon 
of physics.

- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

> there is a big difference in the process of heating a liquid via 
> ultrasonic energy input (NOTE
> ENERGY INPUT) and claiming to extract energy from nowhere.
>
>
> D. Mindock wrote:
>> Dingel says he wants the money from his inventions to go directly
>> to the people of the Phillipines. If he were a charlatan he would want
>> the money for himself and then disappear with it. IMO, I think he's
>> got something and I hope he finds a foundation, investor, etc., he
>> trusts enough to get his technology tweaked & mass produced. But the 
>> chances
>> are slim at best. It is the same with other inventors like him. One
>> exception,
>> (there may be others?) from Rome, Georgia, stopped using the phrase "over
>> unity" and
>> was able to get his product which uses cavitation to heat up
>> water, to market. He's now got a successful business going.
>> But if he were using this to power cars, which he doesn't, I doubt
>> if he would be in business. See: http://www.hydrodynamics.com/
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
>>
>>
>>> miki de mla wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I guess we just have to see the gadget to believe his claims...
>>> Be skeptical.  Eyes can be deceived.
>>>
>>> robert luis rabello
>>> "The Edge of Justice"
>>> Adventure for Your Mind
>>> http://www.newadventure.ca
>>>
>>> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
>>> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
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>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
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>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Bob Allen
> http://ozarker.org/bob
>
> "Science is what we have learned about how to keep
> from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-11 Thread lres1




An item I read of late that turned up on my PC 
suggests figures, "Only about 1.6 percent of the water on Earth is fresh. Most 
of it is locked, unusable for living things, in snow and the ice at the poles 
and on the peaks of the highest mountains."
 
Doug.
 

  
  Another issue concerning the Car Powered by Water: Even if the invention 
  works as he claims it does, i don't think water is the answer for a fuel 
  source for cars. Yeah, it has basically no pollution and all, but what would 
  happen to the water supply when everbody and their mom wants to "fill up"? I 
  think most of us know what a valuable resource water is, and the pressing 
  concerns for its availability in the coming years. Irrigation for crops and 
  feed crops already consumes approx 85%-90% of the industrial water usage of 
  the water supply (40% of that comes from groundwater tables) -and a lot of 
  that is lost to evaporation/transpiration. Just a 
  thought...-Chris
  -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous 
  content by Lao Telecom MailScanner with NOD32, and is 
  believed to be clean. 
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-11 Thread Kirk McLoren

I was at JPL when the lab ran a 2 year project re hydrogen enrichment and Ford and Chevy attended meetings.  project was abandoned when Honda brought out the wedge. The old engines wasted fuel and hydrogen enabled leaner mix. So did Honda design and no hydrogen needed.     Kirkmagic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  This is too weird. Just today an associate sent me an wmv file of a Fox news report about HHO gas & a company called Hydrogen Technology that is promoting something like this (I can forward the clip off list per request) - but in mean time, found their homepage and another link:http://www.hytechapps.com/applications/HHOS.htmhttp://tampatrib.com/Business/MGBKD7YQIGE.htmlEnjoy!SD. Mindock wrote:> Here is a Philippine
 inventor who first started running cars on only> water almost 30 years ago. He has 100 engines he has converted that> will run on just tap or sea water. Needless to say all the car> companies have tried to steal his technology so he is going to share> it with anybody and everybody in a partnership with profits going to> the Philippine people, but not the government. Watch this video at:>>> http://www.mysticfamilycircus.com/Pages/Community/Projects/h2oh29MB.mov>> 1 liter of water will run the car for an hour. Very efficient electrolysis > is used to get the hydrogen> from the water while the car's in operation. Peace, D. Mindock >> ___> Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:>
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>> ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-11 Thread chris davidson

Another issue concerning the Car Powered by Water: Even if the  invention works as he claims it does, i don't think water is the answer  for a fuel source for cars. Yeah, it has basically no pollution and  all, but what would happen to the water supply when everbody and their  mom wants to "fill up"? I think most of us know what a valuable  resource water is, and the pressing concerns for its availability in  the coming years. Irrigation for crops and feed crops already consumes  approx 85%-90% of the industrial water usage of the water supply (40%  of that comes from groundwater tables) -and a lot of that is lost to  evaporation/transpiration. Just a thought...  -Chris  ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-11 Thread Keith Addison

"Some feedback about my visit to Daniel Dingel"
http://2oo5.free.fr/dd/

"Personnally, from what I was able to see, I'm sad to say that the 
car of Daniel DINGEL doesn't run on water."


>there is a big difference in the process of heating a liquid via 
>ultrasonic energy input (NOTE
>ENERGY INPUT) and claiming to extract energy from nowhere.
>
>
>D. Mindock wrote:
> > Dingel says he wants the money from his inventions to go directly
> > to the people of the Phillipines. If he were a charlatan he would want
> > the money for himself and then disappear with it. IMO, I think he's
> > got something and I hope he finds a foundation, investor, etc., he
> > trusts enough to get his technology tweaked & mass produced. But 
>the chances
> > are slim at best. It is the same with other inventors like him. One
> > exception,
> > (there may be others?) from Rome, Georgia, stopped using the phrase "over
> > unity" and
> > was able to get his product which uses cavitation to heat up
> > water, to market. He's now got a successful business going.
> > But if he were using this to power cars, which he doesn't, I doubt
> > if he would be in business. See: http://www.hydrodynamics.com/
> > Peace, D. Mindock
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
> >
> >
> >> miki de mla wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> I guess we just have to see the gadget to believe his claims...
> >> Be skeptical.  Eyes can be deceived.
> >>
> >> robert luis rabello
> >> "The Edge of Justice"
> >> Adventure for Your Mind
> >> http://www.newadventure.ca
> >>
> >> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
> >> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
> >>
>--
>Bob Allen
>http://ozarker.org/bob
>
>"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
>from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman


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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-11 Thread robert luis rabello

D. Mindock wrote:
> Dingel says he wants the money from his inventions to go directly
> to the people of the Phillipines.

Getting money from "investors" for a product that won't work as 
claimed, and selling that worthless product to gullible people is a 
scam, no matter where the funds end up going.  I know it sounds noble, 
but there is NO possibility of water functioning as a fuel.  Water is 
an ash.  Hydrogen is an energy carrier for electrical power.  It takes 
a well known amount of energy to electrolyze water into hydrogen and 
oxygen, but even at better than 100% current efficiency (electrolysis 
below thermoneutral voltage CAN be endothermic), the energy to split 
the water molecule HAS to come from somewhere.

So this guy claims that an internal combustion engine, which is 
widely known to discard most of its fuel's energy as WASTE heat, can 
produce enough power to run itself AND electrolyze water.  The maths 
don't work.

While I have no doubt that an engine can run on hydrogen, the 
evidence of people doing so often falls short on examination.  What 
Mr. Dingle is proposing runs against a vast, verified body of 
knowledge that has accumulated since the first electrolysis 
experiments back in the 1800's.  I don't believe him, and I think you 
ought not believe him either.

But if you want to take his word on faith, that's your concern.  The 
rest of us should hang onto our wallets.

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-11 Thread bob allen

there is a big difference in the process of heating a liquid via ultrasonic 
energy input (NOTE 
ENERGY INPUT) and claiming to extract energy from nowhere.


D. Mindock wrote:
> Dingel says he wants the money from his inventions to go directly
> to the people of the Phillipines. If he were a charlatan he would want
> the money for himself and then disappear with it. IMO, I think he's
> got something and I hope he finds a foundation, investor, etc., he
> trusts enough to get his technology tweaked & mass produced. But the chances
> are slim at best. It is the same with other inventors like him. One 
> exception,
> (there may be others?) from Rome, Georgia, stopped using the phrase "over 
> unity" and
> was able to get his product which uses cavitation to heat up
> water, to market. He's now got a successful business going.
> But if he were using this to power cars, which he doesn't, I doubt
> if he would be in business. See: http://www.hydrodynamics.com/
> Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water
> 
> 
>> miki de mla wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I guess we just have to see the gadget to believe his claims...
>> Be skeptical.  Eyes can be deceived.
>>
>> robert luis rabello
>> "The Edge of Justice"
>> Adventure for Your Mind
>> http://www.newadventure.ca
>>
>> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
>> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>>
>>
>>
> 
> ___
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> 
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-11 Thread bob allen


no, the problem is not economics, its thermodynamics.  The first couple of laws 
of thermodynamics 
say "you don't get something for nothing, and you can't even break even".  you 
have to have an 
energy source if you want to do work.  this is right up there with Newmans free 
energy energy machine.

miki de mla wrote:
> Dingel lives about a kilometer away from my house and i have observed his 
> activities with
> interest all these years. His problem is NOT his invention but rather 
> ECONOMICS. The fossil fuel
> suppliers dont want competition. Last night, I saw on TV representatives of a 
> car manufacturer
> and of a fossil fuel supplier, highlighting the negative aspects of ethanol 
> and biodiesel. In
> other words, they dont want ethanol or biodiesel to replace fossil fuel!
> 
> They say ethanol might contain moisture that can damage vehicles. they also 
> say that carburetors
> of cars contain materials that can "expand", thereby choking the fuel line! 
> They never mention
> the benefits of ethanol and biodiesel.
> 
> I heard Dingel say that he busted several engines in his quest to improve his 
> gadget, but instead
> of being discouraged, he plodded on, even without help from outside. I 
> believe he now has a
> working model and he just have to compete with fossil fuel suppliers to be 
> able to commercialize
> his gadget.
> 
> As an inventor, he is fully aware of inventions being taken away from them if 
> they are not
> vigilant. He looks for a partner that will grow with him.
> 
> I guess we just have to see the gadget to believe his claims...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> */JJJN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> Hmmm, How nice Lets see my calculations may be of just a bit but the liter of 
> water takes
> somewhere around 300Kw hrs of electric energy to split the water into 
> Hydrogen and oxygen at 100%
> conversion, then put this into any heat engine and reassemble getting back 
> 100 Kw hrs of 
> mechanical energy that is used to propel it. The question is where did he get 
> the original 300Kw
> hrs and why the hell didn't he just use the electric energy in a motor to 
> retain all 300 Kw hrs
> hmm Dang it I musta missed something again I think I like vodka better than 
> water anyway.
> 
> Jim
> 
> D. Mindock wrote:
> 
>> Here is a Philippine inventor who first started running cars on only water 
>> almost 30 years ago.
>> He has 100 engines he has converted that will run on just tap or sea water. 
>> Needless to say all
>> the car companies have tried to steal his technology so he is going to share 
>> it with anybody
>> and everybody in a partnership with profits going to the Philippine people, 
>> but not the
>> government. Watch this video at:
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.mysticfamilycircus.com/Pages/Community/Projects/h2oh29MB.mov
>> 
>> 1 liter of water will run the car for an hour. Very efficient
> electrolysis
>> is used to get the hydrogen from the water while the car's in operation. 
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>> 
>> ___ Biofuel mailing list 
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>> 
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>> 
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> ___ Biofuel mailing list 
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> 
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> cheap thrills?
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> 
>  for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
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-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

__

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-11 Thread Angelito Abaoag

there are several issues which i think makes mr.
dingle's invention unacceptable to many

1. his invention was first announced in the late 1960s
and for 40 years he can not properly explain a
coherent technical explanation of major issues of his
inventions. it is not even patented (last time i
heard). an example would be the initial energy
requirement to start the system. there are so many
inventions around the world that can be explained
properly without revealing the critical things. he may
not have the technical education to do so in the
beginning but for 40 years he must at least come up
with a good technical explanation.

2. his reluctance to open up his gadget is
understandable but he also do not want to let his
engines be subjected to a standard tests. an example
an engineer suggested to place a white blank paper
near the exhaust and let his engine run. if you dont
see black soot in the paper then it might really be
running on water because even the cleanest fuel can
emit certain amount of carbon gases.

3. whenever he is engaged in a discussion on technical
matters he counters with the story that he is
prevented by multiunationals, PhDs are jealous, etc.
that story was heard time and time again for 30 years.
its time to change the storyline

4. he is looking for investors? who can invest on
something that doesn't have a guarantee. many
companies, groups and individuals who offered him and
talk to him thru the years and a number of them are
really good and morally upright people with the means
to make his invention be propagated and yet he can not
find one. is his standard that high? if you are smart
enough you can make your investments without
sacrificing your principles or without loosing your
invention.

let us just remember that it took hundreds of years
before man accepted that the earth is round. before
that the pronouncement that the earth is flat is
considered true. in the absence of a verifiable fact
any claim remains a claim, no more no less

lito abaoag

--- miki de mla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dingel lives about a kilometer away from my house
> and i have observed his activities with interest all
> these years. His problem is NOT his invention but
> rather ECONOMICS. The fossil fuel suppliers dont
> want competition. Last night, I saw on TV
> representatives of a car manufacturer and of a
> fossil fuel supplier, highlighting the negative
> aspects of ethanol and biodiesel. In other words,
> they dont want ethanol or biodiesel to replace
> fossil fuel!
>
>   They say ethanol might contain moisture that can
> damage vehicles. they also say that carburetors of
> cars contain materials that can "expand", thereby
> choking the fuel line! They never mention the
> benefits of ethanol and biodiesel.
>
>   I heard Dingel say that he busted several engines
> in his quest to improve his gadget, but instead of
> being discouraged, he plodded on, even without help
> from outside. I believe he now has a working model
> and he just have to compete with fossil fuel
> suppliers to be able to commercialize his gadget. 
>
>   As an inventor, he is fully aware of inventions
> being taken away from them if they are not vigilant.
> He looks for a partner that will grow with him.
>
>   I guess we just have to see the gadget to believe
> his claims...
>
>
>
>   
> 
> JJJN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   Hmmm, How nice Lets see my calculations may be of
> just a bit but the 
> liter of water takes somewhere around 300Kw hrs of
> electric energy to 
> split the water into Hydrogen and oxygen at 100%
> conversion, then put 
> this into any heat engine and reassemble getting
> back 100 Kw hrs of 
> mechanical energy that is used to propel it. The
> question is where did 
> he get the original 300Kw hrs and why the hell
> didn't he just use the 
> electric energy in a motor to retain all 300 Kw hrs
> hmm Dang it I musta 
> missed something again I think I like vodka better
> than water anyway.
> 
> Jim
> 
> D. Mindock wrote:
> 
> >Here is a Philippine inventor who first started
> running cars on only
> >water almost 30 years ago. He has 100 engines he
> has converted that
> >will run on just tap or sea water. Needless to say
> all the car
> >companies have tried to steal his technology so he
> is going to share
> >it with anybody and everybody in a partnership with
> profits going to
> >the Philippine people, but not the government.
> Watch this video at:
> >
> >
>
>http://www.mysticfamilycircus.com/Pages/Community/Projects/h2oh29MB.mov
> >
> >1 liter of water will run the car for an hour. Very
> efficient electrolysis 
> >is used to get the hydrogen
> >from the water while the car's in operation. Peace,
> D. Mindock 
> >
> >___
> >Biofuel mailing list
> >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-10 Thread D. Mindock

Dingel says he wants the money from his inventions to go directly
to the people of the Phillipines. If he were a charlatan he would want
the money for himself and then disappear with it. IMO, I think he's
got something and I hope he finds a foundation, investor, etc., he
trusts enough to get his technology tweaked & mass produced. But the chances
are slim at best. It is the same with other inventors like him. One 
exception,
(there may be others?) from Rome, Georgia, stopped using the phrase "over 
unity" and
was able to get his product which uses cavitation to heat up
water, to market. He's now got a successful business going.
But if he were using this to power cars, which he doesn't, I doubt
if he would be in business. See: http://www.hydrodynamics.com/
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

> miki de mla wrote:
>
>
>> I guess we just have to see the gadget to believe his claims...
>
> Be skeptical.  Eyes can be deceived.
>
> robert luis rabello
> "The Edge of Justice"
> Adventure for Your Mind
> http://www.newadventure.ca
>
> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>
>
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-10 Thread robert luis rabello

miki de mla wrote:


> I guess we just have to see the gadget to believe his claims...

Be skeptical.  Eyes can be deceived.

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-10 Thread miki de mla

Dingel lives about a kilometer away from my house and i have observed his activities with interest all these years. His problem is NOT his invention but rather ECONOMICS. The fossil fuel suppliers dont want competition. Last night, I saw on TV representatives of a car manufacturer and of a fossil fuel supplier, highlighting the negative aspects of ethanol and biodiesel. In other words, they dont want ethanol or biodiesel to replace fossil fuel! They say ethanol might contain moisture that can damage vehicles. they also say that carburetors of cars contain materials that can "expand", thereby choking the fuel line! They never mention the benefits of ethanol and biodiesel. I heard Dingel say that he busted several engines in his quest to improve his gadget, but instead of being discouraged, he plodded on, even without help from outside. I believe he now has a working model and he just have to compete with
fossil fuel suppliers to be able to commercialize his gadget. As an inventor, he is fully aware of inventions being taken away from them if they are not vigilant. He looks for a partner that will grow with him. I guess we just have to see the gadget to believe his claims... JJJN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hmmm, How nice Lets see my calculations may be of just a bit but the liter of water takes somewhere around 300Kw hrs of electric energy to split the water into Hydrogen and oxygen at 100% conversion, then put this into any heat engine and reassemble getting back 100 Kw hrs of mechanical energy that is used to propel it. The question is where did he get the original 300Kw hrs and why the
hell didn't he just use the electric energy in a motor to retain all 300 Kw hrs hmm Dang it I musta missed something again I think I like vodka better than water anyway.JimD. Mindock wrote:>Here is a Philippine inventor who first started running cars on only>water almost 30 years ago. He has 100 engines he has converted that>will run on just tap or sea water. Needless to say all the car>companies have tried to steal his technology so he is going to share>it with anybody and everybody in a partnership with profits going to>the Philippine people, but not the government. Watch this video at:>>>http://www.mysticfamilycircus.com/Pages/Community/Projects/h2oh29MB.mov>>1 liter of water will run the car for an hour. Very efficient electrolysis >is used to get the hydrogen>from the water while the car's in operation. Peace, D. Mindock
>>___>Biofuel mailing list>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>> >___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-09 Thread magic


This is too weird. Just today an associate sent me an wmv file of a Fox 
news report about HHO gas & a company called Hydrogen Technology that is 
promoting something like this (I can forward the clip off list per 
request) - but in mean time, found their homepage and another link:

http://www.hytechapps.com/applications/HHOS.htm
http://tampatrib.com/Business/MGBKD7YQIGE.html


Enjoy!

   S


D. Mindock wrote:
> Here is a Philippine inventor who first started running cars on only
> water almost 30 years ago. He has 100 engines he has converted that
> will run on just tap or sea water. Needless to say all the car
> companies have tried to steal his technology so he is going to share
> it with anybody and everybody in a partnership with profits going to
> the Philippine people, but not the government. Watch this video at:
>
>
> http://www.mysticfamilycircus.com/Pages/Community/Projects/h2oh29MB.mov
>
> 1 liter of water will run the car for an hour. Very efficient electrolysis 
> is used to get the hydrogen
> from the water while the car's in operation.  Peace, D. Mindock 
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-09 Thread Aaron Wagner

will they call it a Mercury outboard?
 
On 5/8/06, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ha.  I've already supercharged that car.  Now it goes TWICE as fast on aglass of water.robert luis rabello wrote:
>D. Mindock wrote:>Here is a Philippine inventor who first started running cars on only>>water almost 30 years ago. He has 100 engines he has converted that>>will run on just tap or sea water.
>>   Uh huh . . .>Needless to say all the car>>companies have tried to steal his technology so he is going to share>>it with anybody and everybody in a partnership with profits going to
>>the Philippine people, but not the government.>>   A little hocus pocus electrolysis is WORTH stealing?  I did>electrolysis in 8th grade!>>>
>>Watch this video at:>>http://www.mysticfamilycircus.com/Pages/Community/Projects/h2oh29MB.mov
>>   Been there.  Seen that grainy video.  Please forgive me for yawning.1 liter of water will run the car for an hour. Very efficient electrolysis
>>is used to get the hydrogen>>from the water while the car's in operation.  Peace, D. Mindock>>   Even IF the electrolysis were 100% efficient, it takes 31.6 kWh of
>electrical power to evolve a kilogram of hydrogen, which has roughly>the same energy as a US gallon of gasoline.  He claims he does this>from batteries and the car's alternator.  (It would be far more
>efficient to use the batteries to power an electric motor directly!)>Give me an hour with one of his machines and I'll figure out where the>hydrogen is REALLY coming from!>>   Having written this, with gasoline in my area consistently running
>above $1.10 per liter, it's now officially CHEAPER for me to>electrolyze hydrogen from water, using grid power, and burn it in my>vehicle, than to power the same vehicle on gasoline.  Go figure!>
>>robert luis rabello>"The Edge of Justice">Adventure for Your Mind>http://www.newadventure.ca>>Ranger Supercharger Project Page
>http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___>Biofuel mailing list>
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):>
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>>>___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-09 Thread Marlowe Inoferio

About this Car runs on water. I saw this a few years back on our local Philippine news. It was only a few times he was featured. But never the less not much believed him. But i would love to believe him. Some say he had investments pouring in from different countries. Some of his inventions was really publicized. I think the media was paid to stop on advertising his invention.Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: PaddlesKen Provost wrote:>On May 8, 2006, at 4:06 PM, D. Mindock wrote:>>>  >>>1 liter of water will run the car for an hour. Very efficient>>electrolysis  is used to get the hydrogen from the water>>while the car's in operation.>>>No time to read the details just now -- I'm guessing
 the>electricity comes from a wind turbine on top of the car,>which is turned by the wind from the car's motion down>the road! :-)>>>-K>>___>Biofuel mailing list>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>>  >___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-09 Thread Aaron Wagner

I always said the day we run out of gas they would say that they JUST figured out how to run a car off of H20
 
 
On 5/8/06, David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
D. Mindock wrote:> Here is a Philippine inventor who first started running cars on only> water almost 30 years ago. He has 100 engines he has converted that
> will run on just tap or sea water. Needless to say all the car> companies have tried to steal his technology so he is going to share> it with anybody and everybody in a partnership with profits going to
> the Philippine people, but not the government. Watch this video at:>>> http://www.mysticfamilycircus.com/Pages/Community/Projects/h2oh29MB.mov
>> 1 liter of water will run the car for an hour. Very efficient electrolysis> is used to get the hydrogen> from the water while the car's in operation.  Peace, D. Mindock>To be the first of many, I'm sure, but
You don't really believe this do you?  I mean I had this very idea whenI was in the sixth grade, but I did grow up.Basic physics so I'm not accused of ad-hominem attacks"very efficient electrolysis" from a physics point of view means that
you get most of the energy out of the cell that you put in inelectricity.  100% efficient would mean that you've got a perpetualmotion machine - just keep electrolyzing the water and running an engineon it.
It would be cool if it were otherwise - the energy crisis would be overand we wouldn't even need to make biofuels.  Generators could run onwater, electricity could be produced and we'd only have water vapor for
emissions.Only it can't happen.  A liter of water isn't going to electrolyzeitself and produce useful energy.  It's the result of an energyproducing chemical reaction and it's going to take energy to reverse it.
Sorry,--- David___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-08 Thread JJJN

Hmmm, How nice Lets see my calculations may be of just a bit but the 
liter of water takes somewhere around 300Kw hrs of electric energy to 
split  the water into  Hydrogen and oxygen at 100% conversion, then put 
this into any heat engine and reassemble  getting back 100 Kw hrs of 
mechanical energy that is used to propel it.  The question is where did 
he get the original 300Kw hrs and why the hell didn't he just use the 
electric energy in a motor to retain all 300 Kw hrs hmm Dang it I musta 
missed something again I think I like vodka better than water anyway.

Jim

D. Mindock wrote:

>Here is a Philippine inventor who first started running cars on only
>water almost 30 years ago. He has 100 engines he has converted that
>will run on just tap or sea water. Needless to say all the car
>companies have tried to steal his technology so he is going to share
>it with anybody and everybody in a partnership with profits going to
>the Philippine people, but not the government. Watch this video at:
>
>
>http://www.mysticfamilycircus.com/Pages/Community/Projects/h2oh29MB.mov
>
>1 liter of water will run the car for an hour. Very efficient electrolysis 
>is used to get the hydrogen
>from the water while the car's in operation.  Peace, D. Mindock 
>
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>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

Solar panels on a Prius?

Andrew Netherton wrote:

>On 5/8/06, Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>No time to read the details just now -- I'm guessing the
>>electricity comes from a wind turbine on top of the car,
>>which is turned by the wind from the car's motion down
>>the road! :-)
>>
>>
>>-K
>>
>>
>
>Don't laugh.  I actually had some discussions with someone involved in
>alternative fuels suggest that adding a small wind turbine to the top
>of an electric car would improve its range.  Otherwise a successful
>entrepreneur with some great ideas, he just had no concept of the laws
>of thermodynamics.
>
>Andrew
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-08 Thread Andrew Netherton

On 5/8/06, Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> No time to read the details just now -- I'm guessing the
> electricity comes from a wind turbine on top of the car,
> which is turned by the wind from the car's motion down
> the road! :-)
>
>
> -K

Don't laugh.  I actually had some discussions with someone involved in
alternative fuels suggest that adding a small wind turbine to the top
of an electric car would improve its range.  Otherwise a successful
entrepreneur with some great ideas, he just had no concept of the laws
of thermodynamics.

Andrew

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

Ha.  I've already supercharged that car.  Now it goes TWICE as fast on a 
glass of water.

robert luis rabello wrote:

>D. Mindock wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Here is a Philippine inventor who first started running cars on only
>>water almost 30 years ago. He has 100 engines he has converted that
>>will run on just tap or sea water.
>>
>>
>
>   Uh huh . . .
>
>  
>
>>Needless to say all the car
>>companies have tried to steal his technology so he is going to share
>>it with anybody and everybody in a partnership with profits going to
>>the Philippine people, but not the government. 
>>
>>
>
>   A little hocus pocus electrolysis is WORTH stealing?  I did 
>electrolysis in 8th grade!
>
>  
>
>>Watch this video at:
>>
>>
>>http://www.mysticfamilycircus.com/Pages/Community/Projects/h2oh29MB.mov
>>
>>
>
>   Been there.  Seen that grainy video.  Please forgive me for yawning.
>  
>
>>1 liter of water will run the car for an hour. Very efficient electrolysis 
>>is used to get the hydrogen
>>from the water while the car's in operation.  Peace, D. Mindock 
>>
>>
>
>   Even IF the electrolysis were 100% efficient, it takes 31.6 kWh of 
>electrical power to evolve a kilogram of hydrogen, which has roughly 
>the same energy as a US gallon of gasoline.  He claims he does this 
>from batteries and the car's alternator.  (It would be far more 
>efficient to use the batteries to power an electric motor directly!) 
>Give me an hour with one of his machines and I'll figure out where the 
>hydrogen is REALLY coming from!
>
>   Having written this, with gasoline in my area consistently running 
>above $1.10 per liter, it's now officially CHEAPER for me to 
>electrolyze hydrogen from water, using grid power, and burn it in my 
>vehicle, than to power the same vehicle on gasoline.  Go figure!
>
>
>robert luis rabello
>"The Edge of Justice"
>Adventure for Your Mind
>http://www.newadventure.ca
>
>Ranger Supercharger Project Page
>http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>
>
>
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>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

Guess I shouldn't have sent that investment check - darn, he seemed so 
nice, too.

David Miller wrote:

>D. Mindock wrote:
>  
>
>>Here is a Philippine inventor who first started running cars on only
>>water almost 30 years ago. He has 100 engines he has converted that
>>will run on just tap or sea water. Needless to say all the car
>>companies have tried to steal his technology so he is going to share
>>it with anybody and everybody in a partnership with profits going to
>>the Philippine people, but not the government. Watch this video at:
>>
>>
>>http://www.mysticfamilycircus.com/Pages/Community/Projects/h2oh29MB.mov
>>
>>1 liter of water will run the car for an hour. Very efficient electrolysis 
>>is used to get the hydrogen
>>from the water while the car's in operation.  Peace, D. Mindock 
>>  
>>
>>
>
>To be the first of many, I'm sure, but
>
>You don't really believe this do you?  I mean I had this very idea when 
>I was in the sixth grade, but I did grow up.
>
>Basic physics so I'm not accused of ad-hominem attacks
>
>"very efficient electrolysis" from a physics point of view means that 
>you get most of the energy out of the cell that you put in in 
>electricity.  100% efficient would mean that you've got a perpetual 
>motion machine - just keep electrolyzing the water and running an engine 
>on it.
>
>It would be cool if it were otherwise - the energy crisis would be over 
>and we wouldn't even need to make biofuels.  Generators could run on 
>water, electricity could be produced and we'd only have water vapor for 
>emissions.
>
>Only it can't happen.  A liter of water isn't going to electrolyze 
>itself and produce useful energy.  It's the result of an energy 
>producing chemical reaction and it's going to take energy to reverse it.
>
>Sorry,
>
>--- David
>
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>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water

2006-05-08 Thread robert luis rabello

D. Mindock wrote:

> Here is a Philippine inventor who first started running cars on only
> water almost 30 years ago. He has 100 engines he has converted that
> will run on just tap or sea water.

Uh huh . . .

> Needless to say all the car
> companies have tried to steal his technology so he is going to share
> it with anybody and everybody in a partnership with profits going to
> the Philippine people, but not the government. 

A little hocus pocus electrolysis is WORTH stealing?  I did 
electrolysis in 8th grade!

>Watch this video at:
> 
> 
> http://www.mysticfamilycircus.com/Pages/Community/Projects/h2oh29MB.mov

Been there.  Seen that grainy video.  Please forgive me for yawning.
> 
> 1 liter of water will run the car for an hour. Very efficient electrolysis 
> is used to get the hydrogen
> from the water while the car's in operation.  Peace, D. Mindock 

Even IF the electrolysis were 100% efficient, it takes 31.6 kWh of 
electrical power to evolve a kilogram of hydrogen, which has roughly 
the same energy as a US gallon of gasoline.  He claims he does this 
from batteries and the car's alternator.  (It would be far more 
efficient to use the batteries to power an electric motor directly!) 
Give me an hour with one of his machines and I'll figure out where the 
hydrogen is REALLY coming from!

Having written this, with gasoline in my area consistently running 
above $1.10 per liter, it's now officially CHEAPER for me to 
electrolyze hydrogen from water, using grid power, and burn it in my 
vehicle, than to power the same vehicle on gasoline.  Go figure!

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water