Re: [Biofuel] Lignin crop redidue breakdown
Hi Rich The use of compostingas the pre treatmenthave several disadvantages.Instead ofselective removal of lignin the hemicelluose and cellulose are significantly lost as well as the long processing time , the need for mixed inoculations and also as the problem of contamination.Surley yet this method can be apropriate for rural areas sdPannirselvam/18/05, Rich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I am looking at the second chapter of Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel -Raw materials chapter at http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh2.html#2_1.At the Crop Residue part, it says: The backbone of sugar and starch crops -- the stalks and leaves -- is composed mainly of cellulose. The individual six-carbon sugar units in cellulose are linked together in extremely long chains by a stronger chemical bond than exists in starch. As with starch, cellulose must be broken down into sugar units before it can be used by yeast to make ethanol. However, the breaking of the cellulose bonds is much more complex and costly than the breaking of the starch bonds. Breaking the cellulose into individual sugar units is complicated by the presence of lignin, a complex compound surrounding cellulose, which is even more resistant than cellulose to enzymatic or acidic pretreatment. Because of the high cost of converting liquefied cellulose into fermentable sugars, agricultural residues (as well as other crops having a high percentage of cellulose) are not yet a practical feedstock source for small ethanol plants. Current research may result in feasible cellulosic conversion processes in the future.I am alsolooking at Stu Campbell's book LET IT ROT!The gardener's guide to composting, Revised edition.My question is since composting does a good job of breaking down lignin, would it be possible to use composting as part ofthe ethanol creation process? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- Pagandai V PannirselvamUniversidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRNDepartamento de Engenharia Química - DEQCentro de Tecnologia - CTPrograma de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPECAv. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus UniversitárioCEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - BrasilResidence :AvOdilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 CapimMacioEP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - BrasilTelefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal21032171557Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557 Cellular8488145083 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [Biofuel] Lignin crop redidue breakdown
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Rich The use of compostingas the pre treatmenthave several disadvantages.Instead ofselective removal of lignin the hemicelluose and cellulose are significantly lost as well as the long processing time , the need for mixed inoculations and also as the problem of contamination. Surley yet this method can be apropriate for rural areas sd Pannirselvam /18/05, Rich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am looking at the second chapter of Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel -Raw materials chapter at http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh2.html#2_1. At the "Crop Residue" part, it says: "The "backbone" of sugar and starch crops -- the stalks and leaves -- is composed mainly of cellulose. The individual six-carbon sugar units in cellulose are linked together in extremely long chains by a stronger chemical bond than exists in starch. As with starch, cellulose must be broken down into sugar units before it can be used by yeast to make ethanol. However, the breaking of the cellulose bonds is much more complex and costly than the breaking of the starch bonds. Breaking the cellulose into individual sugar units is complicated by the presence of lignin, a complex compound surrounding cellulose, which is even more resistant than cellulose to enzymatic or acidic pretreatment. Because of the high cost of converting liquefied cellulose into fermentable sugars, agricultural residues (as well as other crops having a high percentage of cellulose) are not yet a practical feedstock source for small ethanol plants. Current research may result in feasible cellulosic conversion processes in the future."I am alsolooking at Stu Campbell's book "LET IT ROT!The gardener's guide to composting, Revised edition.My question is since composting does a good job of breaking down lignin, would it be possible to use composting as part ofthe ethanol creation process? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- Pagandai V Pannirselvam Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Qumica - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CT Programa de Ps Graduao em Engenharia Qumica - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitrio CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence : AvOdilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 CapimMacio EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil Telefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal210 32171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557 Cellular8488145083 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ The purpose of conversion to ethane is to extract energy from matter, right? Composting produces heat (energy) right? Why not just use the heat energy directly for diverse purposes? Every time energy is transformed from one state to another, there is a loss. Reducing the number of energy transitions from raw to usable should reduce the losses incurred in the process. Why not a composting engine? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [Biofuel] Lignin crop redidue breakdown
My question is since composting does a good job of breaking down lignin, would it be possible to use composting as part of the ethanol creation process? I can imagine that the micro organisms "eat" also the sugars, leaving nothing for you to ferment to sugar. Greetings, Pieter Netherlands ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Lignin crop redidue breakdown
My question is since composting does a good job of breaking down lignin, would it be possible to use composting as part of the ethanol creation process? I can imagine that the micro organisms eat also the sugars, leaving nothing for you to ferment to sugar. Pieter A related question: Mother Earth News had an article about a Missouri farmer who uses earthworms to turn distiller's grains into organic fertilizer. Could worms also break down lignin residue before distillation? If this is a dumb question, I apologize. I have made ethanol, but I am not a chemist. This farmer also has made a low energy vacuum distillation system that reduces the cost of ethanol to 38 cents a gallon. He will share his info with anyone. (See below) Read about his work at http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1980_November_Dece mber/A_Self_Sufficient_Energy__Livestock_System_ Some quotes from the article: But McCutcheon's concept of integrated farming for self-sufficiency involves more than simply producing fuels. In order to manufacture ethanol at a reasonable cost, one must take full advantage of the value of the process's by-product . . . the leftover distiller's grains. Normally, such protein-rich remains (which usually total about one-third of the raw materials' original weight) can be sold outright as a livestock feed supplement or used directly on the farm for the same purpose. Charles, however, employs the residue to produce a sizable crop of earthworms! The McCutcheon brainchild is a fiberglass-fabricated, 500-gallon-capacity still that operates under 26 inches of vacuum . . . a factor which allows it to work at a temperature of only 130 °F, as compared with the approximately 175°F that a distillery exposed to atmospheric pressure would have to achieve. To further improve the efficiency of his operation, Mr. McCutcheon uses a hardy imported yeast in his mash, which he claims can withstand as much as a 13% alcohol content, compared with the 8-10% that normal yeast can handle. The additional few percentage points of tolerance, of course, allow the tiny organisms to produce more distillable ethanol per batch of beer. EDITOR'S NOTE: Charlie McCutcheon can provide further information concerning any of his various miracle products to anyone who writes hire at McCutcheon's Midwest Miracle Marts, Dept. TMEN, Highway 5 at Lucky Street, Payette, Missouri 65248 (please include a self-addressed, stamped envelope). ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Lignin crop redidue breakdown
In nz, Australia and England, we make such fantastic spreads like marmite, and vegemite from the stuff left over from beer brewing, You yanks don't see to like it too much tho... http://www.marmite.com/ Cheers, Bede -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 2:43 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Lignin crop redidue breakdown My question is since composting does a good job of breaking down lignin, would it be possible to use composting as part of the ethanol creation process? I can imagine that the micro organisms eat also the sugars, leaving nothing for you to ferment to sugar. Pieter A related question: Mother Earth News had an article about a Missouri farmer who uses earthworms to turn distiller's grains into organic fertilizer. Could worms also break down lignin residue before distillation? If this is a dumb question, I apologize. I have made ethanol, but I am not a chemist. This farmer also has made a low energy vacuum distillation system that reduces the cost of ethanol to 38 cents a gallon. He will share his info with anyone. (See below) Read about his work at http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1980_November_Dece mber/A_Self_Sufficient_Energy__Livestock_System_ Some quotes from the article: But McCutcheon's concept of integrated farming for self-sufficiency involves more than simply producing fuels. In order to manufacture ethanol at a reasonable cost, one must take full advantage of the value of the process's by-product . . . the leftover distiller's grains. Normally, such protein-rich remains (which usually total about one-third of the raw materials' original weight) can be sold outright as a livestock feed supplement or used directly on the farm for the same purpose. Charles, however, employs the residue to produce a sizable crop of earthworms! The McCutcheon brainchild is a fiberglass-fabricated, 500-gallon-capacity still that operates under 26 inches of vacuum . . . a factor which allows it to work at a temperature of only 130 0F, as compared with the approximately 1750F that a distillery exposed to atmospheric pressure would have to achieve. To further improve the efficiency of his operation, Mr. McCutcheon uses a hardy imported yeast in his mash, which he claims can withstand as much as a 13% alcohol content, compared with the 8-10% that normal yeast can handle. The additional few percentage points of tolerance, of course, allow the tiny organisms to produce more distillable ethanol per batch of beer. EDITOR'S NOTE: Charlie McCutcheon can provide further information concerning any of his various miracle products to anyone who writes hire at McCutcheon's Midwest Miracle Marts, Dept. TMEN, Highway 5 at Lucky Street, Payette, Missouri 65248 (please include a self-addressed, stamped envelope). ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Lignin crop redidue breakdown
Glad to see others are looking at this. Rich wrote: I am looking at the second chapter of Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel -Raw materials chapter at http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh2.html#2_1. I was involved in a recent thread called Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood using mushrooms. I have by no means given up on these ideas. However as a newbie here and with biofuel I believe that I should try some of the things which these people have been doing with great success for many years before I dive head first into something that needs serious research at this stage of its development. I know I sound like a hick or worse a hippie but I'm gonna trade in my 6 cylinder gas powered tractor and get me a diesel and plant some crops on our family ranch. I particularly like the things Kim and Garth talk about with their sustainable lives. I gives me a lot of hope for the future. Oh and yip, gonna git some chickens too, because I love eggs and I had chickens before although the coyotes are troublesome here. I think the best thing to do with cellulose is combine it with cow dung as was also suggested here and make our own methane! This sounds really good to me considering that we owe the propane company $185.00 and the tank is at 10%. I shudder at the thought of buying a hundred pounds or gallons or whatever they measure that gas in. I count my blessings that we rely only on propane for the hot water heater and the cook stove. One hundred gallons has lasted for four months, still I need to get my family off of the petro-products nipple. We can not afford it anymore. Brian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Lignin crop redidue breakdown
I keep a little jar in my fridge. I love Marmite on fresh bread. Just a crazy Yank Bede wrote: In nz, Australia and England, we make such fantastic spreads like marmite, and vegemite from the stuff left over from beer brewing, You yanks don't see to like it too much tho... http://www.marmite.com/ Cheers, Bede -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 2:43 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Lignin crop redidue breakdown My question is since composting does a good job of breaking down lignin, would it be possible to use composting as part of the ethanol creation process? I can imagine that the micro organisms eat also the sugars, leaving nothing for you to ferment to sugar. Pieter A related question: Mother Earth News had an article about a Missouri farmer who uses earthworms to turn distiller's grains into organic fertilizer. Could worms also break down lignin residue before distillation? If this is a dumb question, I apologize. I have made ethanol, but I am not a chemist. This farmer also has made a low energy vacuum distillation system that reduces the cost of ethanol to 38 cents a gallon. He will share his info with anyone. (See below) Read about his work at http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1980_November_Dece mber/A_Self_Sufficient_Energy__Livestock_System_ Some quotes from the article: But McCutcheon's concept of integrated farming for self-sufficiency involves more than simply producing fuels. In order to manufacture ethanol at a reasonable cost, one must take full advantage of the value of the process's by-product . . . the leftover distiller's grains. Normally, such protein-rich remains (which usually total about one-third of the raw materials' original weight) can be sold outright as a livestock feed supplement or used directly on the farm for the same purpose. Charles, however, employs the residue to produce a sizable crop of earthworms! The McCutcheon brainchild is a fiberglass-fabricated, 500-gallon-capacity still that operates under 26 inches of vacuum . . . a factor which allows it to work at a temperature of only 130 0F, as compared with the approximately 1750F that a distillery exposed to atmospheric pressure would have to achieve. To further improve the efficiency of his operation, Mr. McCutcheon uses a hardy imported yeast in his mash, which he claims can withstand as much as a 13% alcohol content, compared with the 8-10% that normal yeast can handle. The additional few percentage points of tolerance, of course, allow the tiny organisms to produce more distillable ethanol per batch of beer. EDITOR'S NOTE: Charlie McCutcheon can provide further information concerning any of his various miracle products to anyone who writes hire at McCutcheon's Midwest Miracle Marts, Dept. TMEN, Highway 5 at Lucky Street, Payette, Missouri 65248 (please include a self-addressed, stamped envelope). ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Lignin crop redidue breakdown
I am looking at the second chapter of Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel -Raw materials chapter at http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh2.html#2_1. At the "Crop Residue" part, it says: "The "backbone" of sugar and starch crops -- the stalks and leaves -- is composed mainly of cellulose. The individual six-carbon sugar units in cellulose are linked together in extremely long chains by a stronger chemical bond than exists in starch. As with starch, cellulose must be broken down into sugar units before it can be used by yeast to make ethanol. However, the breaking of the cellulose bonds is much more complex and costly than the breaking of the starch bonds. Breaking the cellulose into individual sugar units is complicated by the presence of lignin, a complex compound surrounding cellulose, which is even more resistant than cellulose to enzymatic or acidic pretreatment. Because of the high cost of converting liquefied cellulose into fermentable sugars, agricultural residues (as well as other crops having a high percentage of cellulose) are not yet a practical feedstock source for small ethanol plants. Current research may result in feasible cellulosic conversion processes in the future." I am also looking at Stu Campbell's book "LET IT ROT! The gardener's guide to composting, Revised edition. My question is since composting does a good job of breaking down lignin, would it be possible to use composting as part of the ethanol creation process? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Lignin crop redidue breakdown
I doubt it. The lignin is harder to break down than the other sugars, so the other sugars are broken down first. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Rich To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 20:56 Subject: [Biofuel] Lignin crop redidue breakdown I am looking at the second chapter of Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel -Raw materials chapter athttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh2.html#2_1. At the "Crop Residue" part, it says: "The "backbone" of sugar and starch crops -- the stalks and leaves -- is composed mainly of cellulose. The individual six-carbon sugar units in cellulose are linked together in extremely long chains by a stronger chemical bond than exists in starch. As with starch, cellulose must be broken down into sugar units before it can be used by yeast to make ethanol. However, the breaking of the cellulose bonds is much more complex and costly than the breaking of the starch bonds. Breaking the cellulose into individual sugar units is complicated by the presence of lignin, a complex compound surrounding cellulose, which is even more resistant than cellulose to enzymatic or acidic pretreatment. Because of the high cost of converting liquefied cellulose into fermentable sugars, agricultural residues (as well as other crops having a high percentage of cellulose) are not yet a practical feedstock source for small ethanol plants. Current research may result in feasible cellulosic conversion processes in the future." I am also looking at Stu Campbell's book "LET IT ROT! The gardener's guide to composting, Revised edition. My question is since composting does a good job of breaking down lignin, would it be possible to use composting as part of the ethanol creation process? ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
