Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
But from what I can tell the ecology of forests is much more complicated than the planting and harvesting cycle of most commercial crops and of the common back yard garden. I'm sure man can duplicate nature's harvest cycle but, would that meet the needs of man? Most likely not, because one reason man now tends crops and developed animal husbandry is that Earth's natural cycle output wasn't enough to, support an ever expanding population. My question would be is the production of methanol a wise use of forests and forest management? Methanol can be produced from a variety of renewable plants, but I don't know of any substitutes for the lumber products forest's can supply Doug - Original Message - From: jeff younkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees : Forrests need TLC, and harvested in a safe manner replanted for the next : gereration and more TLC. If this is not done mother nature has her own : way of harvesting. And mother natures way is not nice. Harvesting a : forest is no different than harvesting any crop. It needs to be done in : a responsible manner to ensure the next crop for the next generation. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/20/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Methanol From Trees
Dear Friends, Why should we disturb the forest for the production of Methanol? Why cant we use the millions of acres of wasteland lying vacant ?I think we can grow millions of hardy and usefully trees like Pongamia,Neem,Tamrind and bushes like Jatropha,we should avoid monoculture. In South India I have seen these trees and bushes growing even in places where the rainfall is below 400mm this will be a better thing to produce methanol Regards, Shashi Kumar. - Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Not to mention that a leading theory on the health of forests, is that their response to diseases, to bugs, to parasites, is a function of group genetics, where the entire genetic diversity of a forest is involved in creating chemical responses to the shared threat. Trees pick up effective responses to threat from other trees in the forest--this chemically released into the air ( much like pheromes with animals). Cut down 1/3 of the trees, and you cut 1/3 of the potential diversity ( maybe an overstatement, but you get the idea). I believe any plan to cut down natural stands of trees is a huge mistakewhere you have a population of nearly identical genetics in a human planted setting, the stupidity of the planting without genetic diversity would suggest that these stand of trees could be harvested--but they were mistakes to begin with. A crop that takes 50 to 100 years to mature is also a poor choice for harvesting. Dan V -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Younker Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 2:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees But from what I can tell the ecology of forests is much more complicated than the planting and harvesting cycle of most commercial crops and of the common back yard garden. I'm sure man can duplicate nature's harvest cycle but, would that meet the needs of man? Most likely not, because one reason man now tends crops and developed animal husbandry is that Earth's natural cycle output wasn't enough to, support an ever expanding population. My question would be is the production of methanol a wise use of forests and forest management? Methanol can be produced from a variety of renewable plants, but I don't know of any substitutes for the lumber products forest's can supply Doug - Original Message - From: jeff younkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees : Forrests need TLC, and harvested in a safe manner replanted for the next : gereration and more TLC. If this is not done mother nature has her own : way of harvesting. And mother natures way is not nice. Harvesting a : forest is no different than harvesting any crop. It needs to be done in : a responsible manner to ensure the next crop for the next generation. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/20/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
So what is the use of experience and an education? I will consider evaluating the forest service's ideas. Peggy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees Howdy Kieth and Jemery and Tracy, Again I am going to stick to my guns: vide infra Keith Addison wrote: Jeremy Tracy Longworth wrote: Trees injured by the felling of neighboring ones are left to become infected by pathogen. These infected trees then produce inferior seed which then grow into inferior stock. Whoa, sure sounds like a Lamarkian hypothesis to me!So if I cut the tail off my dog, she will have puppies with no tails? That's not Lamarckian Bob. It's very well established that pathogens attack the weaker specimens (that's their role), whereas the stronger, healthier ones are able to defend themselves. Whereas I may agree with the observation, I question the rationale. Remember, correlation does not mean causation. Do the trees which produce inferior seed produce them because they were injured or because they were the runts to begin with, and hence not harvested with the others. What might be seen here is selection bias for genetically unfit trees. If in fact they were runts their seed will be runts due to genetics, not damage. Damaged but otherwise healthy stock may produce fewer seeds, or have lower germination rates, but once a seed has germinated and other external variables being equal , only the genes matter, and you're not going to affect them by physical damage. Even retroviruses have little or no impact on the germplasm. Weak specimens that survive of course do bear inferior seed, not via learned behaviour, but because their health and nutritional status is impaired - they don't have what it takes to set good seed (there's rather a lot involved in that). Agreed, but that doesn't satisfy my problem with why the specimens were inferior in the first place. If you mean by inferior seed you mean smaller numbers seeds produced or lower germination rates ok. But that is not what is implied the the statement I questioned That's why farmers, for thousands of years, have always kept the best seed for next season's crop instead of eating it. It's not just traditional practice though, it's generally accepted and fully supported by science. Again I agree, but this is different from damaged stock producing inferior progeny. Farmers select the fittest individuals based on better genes, not on better conditions. It is exactly what selective breeding is all about. I guess the only way I would be convinced of the aforementioned argument would be from studies directed at the specific question. Data gathered as a side product of forestry operations has biases which may confound the data. Best wishes Keith Toodles --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Just that Peggy. You use your experience and education to consider the information given to us by others. To me, what Bob is saying, makes sense, and I can understand what he is trying to say. Like he said: I guess the only way I would be convinced of the aforementioned argument would be from studies directed at the specific question. Data gathered as a side product of forestry operations has biases which may confound the data. The only way I see it being done, would be to: 1)For 3 to 5 years before any logging, make a complete survey of the area each year.I say 3 to 5 years to help rule out any variables due to weather extremes. 2)Select and mark trees of both inferior and good quality, that may not be cut down under any circumstances, for control purposes.Taking thorough notes as to all the trees relative health, soil samples, core samples, seeds samples for test sprouting growing, looking any signs of disease, ect 3)For 10 years after logging, do an exact repeat of the previous survey, every year, compare the trees, with the notes taken about it before the logging.If after the 10 years, the same trees are diseased or otherwise inferior as before, then you don't have direct cause.Seed samples for test sprouting growing, comparing the before logging seedlings and after logging seedlings ( with the seeds being from the same tree ), would / should show genetic damage.I said 10 years, for the post logging survey, because that would give the trees a chance to heal from any physical damage ( if it is not to great ), and it would show what the local change to the environment does to the tree and it's chances for continued survival ( indirect cause ). 4) Repeat this same study in many places at the same time, to help rule out any local extreme conditions, that may skew the results in favor of one result or the other. I think that in this case, experience ( of those doing the survey and the comparison ), would count allot, and the study it's self would be very educating to all aspects involved with logging. Please, understand, I am not saying Bob is totaly right, after all Agent Orange has proved it's self to be a ' life altering ' item, as have other things, which through a change in the physical conditions can cause a ' life alternating change '. It is a fact that a tree, that has been physically harmed, is more likely to come under attack from disease and pests, the greater the damage, the greater the chance of the tree dieing from it.OTOH, I know of trees that were hit by a tornado when I was in Jr. High School ( some 20 years ago ) and the jagged parts were pruned off, still alive today, and very healthy ( if oddly shaped ), obviously the beating they took by the tornado and then the tree trimming crews, was not detrimental to anything that their shape. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 18:09 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees So what is the use of experience and an education? I will consider evaluating the forest service's ideas. Peggy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Hello Greg, During the next year, I hope to learn a great deal more by attending inter-departmental meetings within a state government. These include forestry, agriculture, energy, and rural economic development. My views will most definitely be altered with introduction to theories, data, and performance records. So... right now, I'm not qualified to post definitive statements. Thanks for your comments and outline of a prudent way to prune. As I understand the proposed program, the trees that are potentially being considered for thinning are not a logging venture so much as implementing a theory much like a tending a garden. We usually over-plant our seeds in our garden and thin the plants as the garden grows to produce a better crop. Therefore, you and I may be talking apples and oranges in addressing forest slash. I view wholesale logging as a crime. I view thinning invasive trees that can hamper the growth of trees similar to the pre-existing trees that flourished prior to a forest burn as a healthy solution to encourage new growth. Those trees to be removed can be more like weeds. The feeling of driving through a burned forest and a logged forest are both disenchanting. The goals and motives of the forest project are to preserve and encourage the forest as much as we can. With increasing population, our solutions require a great deal of care and foresight. To be forward thinking requires knowledge, insight, and love. All we can do is our best. Peggy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Harbican Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 8:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees Just that Peggy. You use your experience and education to consider the information given to us by others. To me, what Bob is saying, makes sense, and I can understand what he is trying to say. Like he said: I guess the only way I would be convinced of the aforementioned argument would be from studies directed at the specific question. Data gathered as a side product of forestry operations has biases which may confound the data. The only way I see it being done, would be to: 1)For 3 to 5 years before any logging, make a complete survey of the area each year.I say 3 to 5 years to help rule out any variables due to weather extremes. 2)Select and mark trees of both inferior and good quality, that may not be cut down under any circumstances, for control purposes.Taking thorough notes as to all the trees relative health, soil samples, core samples, seeds samples for test sprouting growing, looking any signs of disease, ect 3)For 10 years after logging, do an exact repeat of the previous survey, every year, compare the trees, with the notes taken about it before the logging.If after the 10 years, the same trees are diseased or otherwise inferior as before, then you don't have direct cause.Seed samples for test sprouting growing, comparing the before logging seedlings and after logging seedlings ( with the seeds being from the same tree ), would / should show genetic damage.I said 10 years, for the post logging survey, because that would give the trees a chance to heal from any physical damage ( if it is not to great ), and it would show what the local change to the environment does to the tree and it's chances for continued survival ( indirect cause ). 4) Repeat this same study in many places at the same time, to help rule out any local extreme conditions, that may skew the results in favor of one result or the other. I think that in this case, experience ( of those doing the survey and the comparison ), would count allot, and the study it's self would be very educating to all aspects involved with logging. Please, understand, I am not saying Bob is totaly right, after all Agent Orange has proved it's self to be a ' life altering ' item, as have other things, which through a change in the physical conditions can cause a ' life alternating change '. It is a fact that a tree, that has been physically harmed, is more likely to come under attack from disease and pests, the greater the damage, the greater the chance of the tree dieing from it.OTOH, I know of trees that were hit by a tornado when I was in Jr. High School ( some 20 years ago ) and the jagged parts were pruned off, still alive today, and very healthy ( if oddly shaped ), obviously the beating they took by the tornado and then the tree trimming crews, was not detrimental to anything that their shape. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 18:09 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees So what is the use of experience and an education? I will consider evaluating the forest service's ideas. Peggy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Bob, the only thing that matters is whether its nutritional status is sound or not, for whatever reason. If it's not sound, it will be attacked by pathogens (ie pests, of whatever ilk), but even if you protect it, the plant won't be able to set good seed anyway, it just won't have the wherewithall. Regards Keith Howdy Kieth and Jemery and Tracy, Again I am going to stick to my guns: vide infra Keith Addison wrote: Jeremy Tracy Longworth wrote: Trees injured by the felling of neighboring ones are left to become infected by pathogen. These infected trees then produce inferior seed which then grow into inferior stock. Whoa, sure sounds like a Lamarkian hypothesis to me!So if I cut the tail off my dog, she will have puppies with no tails? That's not Lamarckian Bob. It's very well established that pathogens attack the weaker specimens (that's their role), whereas the stronger, healthier ones are able to defend themselves. Whereas I may agree with the observation, I question the rationale. Remember, correlation does not mean causation. Do the trees which produce inferior seed produce them because they were injured or because they were the runts to begin with, and hence not harvested with the others. What might be seen here is selection bias for genetically unfit trees. If in fact they were runts their seed will be runts due to genetics, not damage. Damaged but otherwise healthy stock may produce fewer seeds, or have lower germination rates, but once a seed has germinated and other external variables being equal , only the genes matter, and you're not going to affect them by physical damage. Even retroviruses have little or no impact on the germplasm. Weak specimens that survive of course do bear inferior seed, not via learned behaviour, but because their health and nutritional status is impaired - they don't have what it takes to set good seed (there's rather a lot involved in that). Agreed, but that doesn't satisfy my problem with why the specimens were inferior in the first place. If you mean by inferior seed you mean smaller numbers seeds produced or lower germination rates ok. But that is not what is implied the the statement I questioned That's why farmers, for thousands of years, have always kept the best seed for next season's crop instead of eating it. It's not just traditional practice though, it's generally accepted and fully supported by science. Again I agree, but this is different from damaged stock producing inferior progeny. Farmers select the fittest individuals based on better genes, not on better conditions. It is exactly what selective breeding is all about. I guess the only way I would be convinced of the aforementioned argument would be from studies directed at the specific question. Data gathered as a side product of forestry operations has biases which may confound the data. Best wishes Keith Toodles ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
gereration and more TLC. If this is not done mother nature has her own way of harvesting. And mother natures way is not nice. Harvesting a forest is no different than harvesting any crop. It needs to be done in a responsible manner to ensure the next crop for the next generation. Peggy wrote: Hello Greg, During the next year, I hope to learn a great deal more by attending inter-departmental meetings within a state government. These include forestry, agriculture, energy, and rural economic development. My views will most definitely be altered with introduction to theories, data, and performance records. So... right now, I'm not qualified to post definitive statements. Thanks for your comments and outline of a prudent way to prune. As I understand the proposed program, the trees that are potentially being considered for thinning are not a logging venture so much as implementing a theory much like a tending a garden. We usually over-plant our seeds in our garden and thin the plants as the garden grows to produce a better crop. Therefore, you and I may be talking apples and oranges in addressing forest slash. I view wholesale logging as a crime. I view thinning invasive trees that can hamper the growth of trees similar to the pre-existing trees that flourished prior to a forest burn as a healthy solution to encourage new growth. Those trees to be removed can be more like weeds. The feeling of driving through a burned forest and a logged forest are both disenchanting. The goals and motives of the forest project are to preserve and encourage the forest as much as we can. With increasing population, our solutions require a great deal of care and foresight. To be forward thinking requires knowledge, insight, and love. All we can do is our best. Peggy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Harbican Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 8:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees Just that Peggy. You use your experience and education to consider the information given to us by others. To me, what Bob is saying, makes sense, and I can understand what he is trying to say. Like he said: I guess the only way I would be convinced of the aforementioned argument would be from studies directed at the specific question. Data gathered as a side product of forestry operations has biases which may confound the data. The only way I see it being done, would be to: 1)For 3 to 5 years before any logging, make a complete survey of the area each year.I say 3 to 5 years to help rule out any variables due to weather extremes. 2)Select and mark trees of both inferior and good quality, that may not be cut down under any circumstances, for control purposes.Taking thorough notes as to all the trees relative health, soil samples, core samples, seeds samples for test sprouting growing, looking any signs of disease, ect 3)For 10 years after logging, do an exact repeat of the previous survey, every year, compare the trees, with the notes taken about it before the logging.If after the 10 years, the same trees are diseased or otherwise inferior as before, then you don't have direct cause.Seed samples for test sprouting growing, comparing the before logging seedlings and after logging seedlings ( with the seeds being from the same tree ), would / should show genetic damage.I said 10 years, for the post logging survey, because that would give the trees a chance to heal from any physical damage ( if it is not to great ), and it would show what the local change to the environment does to the tree and it's chances for continued survival ( indirect cause ). 4) Repeat this same study in many places at the same time, to help rule out any local extreme conditions, that may skew the results in favor of one result or the other. I think that in this case, experience ( of those doing the survey and the comparison ), would count allot, and the study it's self would be very educating to all aspects involved with logging. Please, understand, I am not saying Bob is totaly right, after all Agent Orange has proved it's self to be a ' life altering ' item, as have other things, which through a change in the physical conditions can cause a ' life alternating change '. It is a fact that a tree, that has been physically harmed, is more likely to come under attack from disease and pests, the greater the damage, the greater the chance of the tree dieing from it.OTOH, I know of trees that were hit by a tornado when I was in Jr. High School ( some 20 years ago ) and the jagged parts were pruned off, still alive today, and very healthy ( if oddly shaped ), obviously the beating they took by the tornado and then the tree trimming crews, was not detrimental to anything that their shape. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 18
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
I know what you mean, I spent some time ( 18 months ) in OR, and in some places, what they didn't cut / use, they would bulldoze into a pile and burn.I remember my wife scolding me for swearing out loud in front of my son, when I first realized what they were doing. What a bunch of morons they are. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 20:38 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees The feeling of driving through a burned forest and a logged forest are both disenchanting. The goals and motives of the forest project are to preserve and encourage the forest as much as we can. With increasing population, our solutions require a great deal of care and foresight. To be forward thinking requires knowledge, insight, and love. All we can do is our best. Peggy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Trees injured by the felling of neighboring ones are left to become infected by pathogen. These infected trees then produce inferior seed which then grow into inferior stock. Whoa, sure sounds like a Lamarkian hypothesis to me!So if I cut the tail off my dog, she will have puppies with no tails? That's not Lamarckian Bob. It's very well established that pathogens attack the weaker specimens (that's their role), whereas the stronger, healthier ones are able to defend themselves. Weak specimens that survive of course do bear inferior seed, not via learned behaviour, but because their health and nutritional status is impaired - they don't have what it takes to set good seed (there's rather a lot involved in that). That's why farmers, for thousands of years, have always kept the best seed for next season's crop instead of eating it. It's not just traditional practice though, it's generally accepted and fully supported by science. Best wishes Keith -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
guns: vide infra Keith Addison wrote: Jeremy Tracy Longworth wrote: Trees injured by the felling of neighboring ones are left to become infected by pathogen. These infected trees then produce inferior seed which then grow into inferior stock. Whoa, sure sounds like a Lamarkian hypothesis to me!So if I cut the tail off my dog, she will have puppies with no tails? That's not Lamarckian Bob. It's very well established that pathogens attack the weaker specimens (that's their role), whereas the stronger, healthier ones are able to defend themselves. Whereas I may agree with the observation, I question the rationale. Remember, correlation does not mean causation. Do the trees which produce inferior seed produce them because they were injured or because they were the runts to begin with, and hence not harvested with the others. What might be seen here is selection bias for genetically unfit trees. If in fact they were runts their seed will be runts due to genetics, not damage. Damaged but otherwise healthy stock may produce fewer seeds, or have lower germination rates, but once a seed has germinated and other external variables being equal , only the genes matter, and you're not going to affect them by physical damage. Even retroviruses have little or no impact on the germplasm. Weak specimens that survive of course do bear inferior seed, not via learned behaviour, but because their health and nutritional status is impaired - they don't have what it takes to set good seed (there's rather a lot involved in that). Agreed, but that doesn't satisfy my problem with why the specimens were inferior in the first place. If you mean by inferior seed you mean smaller numbers seeds produced or lower germination rates ok. But that is not what is implied the the statement I questioned That's why farmers, for thousands of years, have always kept the best seed for next season's crop instead of eating it. It's not just traditional practice though, it's generally accepted and fully supported by science. Again I agree, but this is different from damaged stock producing inferior progeny. Farmers select the fittest individuals based on better genes, not on better conditions. It is exactly what selective breeding is all about. I guess the only way I would be convinced of the aforementioned argument would be from studies directed at the specific question. Data gathered as a side product of forestry operations has biases which may confound the data. Best wishes Keith Toodles --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Trees injured by the felling of neighboring ones are left to become infected by pathogen. These infected trees then produce inferior seed which then grow into inferior stock. Whoa, sure sounds like a Lamarkian hypothesis to me!So if I cut the tail off my dog, she will have puppies with no tails? -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Hello, I am an Arborist (tree care specialist) and have done research on our renewable resource trees. In the logging industry large stands of wood with little to no pathogen (mineral trace) bring the highest dollar amount. Whereas spindly, scrawny, weakling trees are of little to no value to the logger thus where legal this is what is left. Strong stock produces strong offspring. Weak, spindly, diseased trees produce offspring in like manner. Trees injured by the felling of neighboring ones are left to become infected by pathogen. These infected trees then produce inferior seed which then grow into inferior stock. The interim answer for this problem is to remove diseased and severely damaged trees from the forest leaving the good stock that is left for future reproduction of a stronger healthier lineage. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Thank you very much Jeremy. And the New Mexico Forestry web site does not say this as well as you have said it. Therefore, I assume that you mean that careful and appropriate thinning would be beneficial and that processing that slash and any other slash or yard trash into fuel ethanol could be a wise use of a waste resource. Thanks for the clarification and your expertise. Can you also give us some reference material? Thanks, Peggy Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees Hello, I am an Arborist (tree care specialist) and have done research on our renewable resource trees. In the logging industry large stands of wood with little to no pathogen (mineral trace) bring the highest dollar amount. Whereas spindly, scrawny, weakling trees are of little to no value to the logger thus where legal this is what is left. Strong stock produces strong offspring. Weak, spindly, diseased trees produce offspring in like manner. Trees injured by the felling of neighboring ones are left to become infected by pathogen. These infected trees then produce inferior seed which then grow into inferior stock. The interim answer for this problem is to remove diseased and severely damaged trees from the forest leaving the good stock that is left for future reproduction of a stronger healthier lineage. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Dear Peggy It would take days to bridge gaps between the theoretical, the industry perspective, and the grossly different realities that stem from conflicts of interest, generally self interest between conservationists, industry shills (foresters), the industry players and the political machines. But you are obviously involved in forestry and I'm sure you have read hundreds of papers, proving things like 'thinning has reduced fire risk on the western slopes of Mt. Rushmore. I once received one from our state premier from the head of forestry (Tasmania) proving potash levels in soil to be several times higher after clearfelling and burning than it is in a pristine oldgrowth forest. Well hooray. I have no doubt it is true, but taken alone it allows for a kind of munchkinesque refutation of my own point, which was where had the rest of it gone from the whole system and how after another one or two more harvest sequences would there be enough to grow yet another forest? History and experience are maybe the only things we can really trust. Fly from Vancouver to San Francisco and look down from thirty thousand feet. The giant coniferous forests are gone, it looks like the whole world has been attacked by some mad barber, only about thirty percent of the clearcuts have anything of size on them. The tiny national parks stand like islands in the devastation. How is the salmon fishery going after the devastation of the streams they breed in? You know very well. You want to find out about pesticides? Well there must be some literature around on the yearly aerial spraying of organochlorides for spruce budworm in eastern Canada back in the sixties, (funny there was no great problem before the industry got involved), but that was before the blessed advent of triazines, organophosphates and synthetic pyrethroids which we are drinking here now because (and you will note I mentioned these things in reference to monoculture plantation forestry only.) otherwise the beetles breed up to fill the niche we created for them and want to take much of the yearly growth increment. The literature on Dominex says definitely not to be used within 20 metres of a stream or watercourse but how do you do that from a helicopter in the roaring forties where the stuff drifts for miles and where are our giant freshwater lobsters going not to mention smaller stream life and therefore fish? They are going fast and everybody knows it, you don't need to pay some monkey to write a paper. When the woodchippers came in to 'take the rubbish left on the forest floor' we didn't know they actually wanted nice stems, free of rot or charcoal, and now it seems natural forest doesn't produce enough for these guys - we have an industry to sustain. I've been working in the forest (salvage, sawmilling) for a good many years , seen it all, as for the highly selective literature the colleges push at you kids I just don't have the time. Best wishes Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 1:00 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees Hi George, How is it that both state forestry people and federal forestry people have a different view? It has been repeated again and again within the areas that suffer the most forest fires, that maintenance programs similar to other parts of the world could greatly reduce the effects and potential for forest fires as well as changing watershed quality. And these people site areas where their stewardship has proven a positive effect. Can you give us an example of where their practices have proven detrimental? Or is the information you are presenting theoretical? When reviewing the potential contracts for thinning, I have not seen any mention of herbicides, pesticides, or fertilizers to maintain a sustainable system. Many of the areas are re-growth areas that were involved in previous fire zones. Also, re-planting accelerates re-growth of those species that will assist in reforestation. It is my understanding that there are a number of invasive species that take over previous old growth areas that were damaged in fires and the thinning will promote re-growth of the more beneficial species. Personally, I do not maintain a lawn, yet I do hand pull invasive species of detrimental plants that encroach. Humanity has changed most natural environments--even the forest. Observing those changes, studying how to reclaim the beneficial aspects of what should be a natural process is a science. And I agree that many zealous attempts to improve a situation can backfire. But all in all, the task force of involved personnel for maintaining our forest resources are not flamboyant zealots. They are seasoned, dedicated professionals who do their job because they love the forest. Hope this helps to calm you. And by the way--we should make fuel ethanol instead of methanol from the forest slash. Best wishes, Peggy Subject: Re: [Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
These people use the same arguments that set us up in Canada and Australia and god knows where else for the woodchippers. That these little spindly, generally rewgrowth trees are useless, and here is a heaven sent opportunity to get them out of the way. Well the problem is that they are spindly and short lived because an old growth climax forest has essentially exhausted the soil and all the nutrients are tied up in the biomass. There are highly complex evolved systems including bacteria, fungi, and a pyramid of tiny creatures that process all detritus and recycle it into available (precious) nutrients which are quickly taken up and husbanded by whatever is alive and growing slowly at this point because of limiting factors of space, light, and nutrients. If you look at the water that comes out of such a forest, it is immediately obvious how efficiently the system maintains its nutrients, it is pure and clean. At this point there is no need for herbicides, pesticides or fertilizers to maintain a sustainable system but this isn't good enough for the boys, who want it all now, hell this stuff is overmature, going to die anyway, and there are struggling loggers who need to feed their families but more important major multinational companies with struggling executives and shareholders. So it is scalped by the concessionholders who pay their tithes - sorry a much smaller pittance to the ruling parties. Hey folks don't worry - now we have a regenerating new dynamic forest that is positively eating up CO2..and productive too, my word. Unfortunately it will be felled about the time it manages to sequester the carbon that was locked up in the slash and topsoil that was incinerated, much less replace the original biomass. Which it couldn't replace anyway because the nutrients are gone away on the log trucks and down the water courses into the rivers and ocean. It is accepted that potash loss from ashes washing out after a regeneration burn is about forty percent, so its hardly surprising that the new forest is well; a little spindly and weedy. If it is replaced by a plantation monoculture of fast feeding clones it will never even replace the native ecology and so aerial spraying of herbicides and pesticides and eventually fertilizers will be required to sustain productivity and this too will make its way into the river systems. You may say that wildfire is a natural process and we are only emulating this. Yes it is, but there are evolved systems ie the Aussie stringybark that actually directs fire into the crowns thereby lowering temperature at the ground, maintaining the topsoil and seedbed. When everything is lying on the ground it is so hot you get a beautiful pyronimbus cloud or some such bloody thing and all that is left is a pinky powder like the inside of a brick kiln. This is lauded by the forestry boys as a cheap and effective weed control and all you have to do is add seeds and stir. In a natural system the same thing happens but moderately and over time, and productivity is limited by something; in wet climates it is rates of nutrient coming in and out - in via deep weathering and wind blown dust and tiny impurities in rainwater, out by leaching and various other transport by wind, water and living creatures. This isn't to argue against methanol production, just that if it is going to be done, is it possible to do it with small plants that move around, thinning the forest and spreading the byproduct back over the places it came from, with minimal disturbance, taking only stored solar energy or is it going to be yet another extractive industry that requires even greater volumes of organic matter pulled out into the centralized depots like industrial plants and cities in a system that is so efficiently destroying this planet? - Original Message - From: Hans Etienne Parisis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 7:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees Hello Peggy. Go to the following web page and you'll find every thing 1976 to present db for (cellulosic AND ethanol): 7284 US patents. http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFu=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htmlr=71f=Gl=50d=PG01s1=%28lignocellulose+AND+ethanol%29p=2OS=lignocellulose+AND+ethanolRS=(lignocellulose+AND+ethanol Hans - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:31 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees It is possible to turn the cellulosic biomass into fuel ethanol instead of methanol. Peggy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Harbican Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 7:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees I really hope this is a technology that can be scaled down for home use. I have several trees ( and bushes ) in my yard
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Hi George, How is it that both state forestry people and federal forestry people have a different view? It has been repeated again and again within the areas that suffer the most forest fires, that maintenance programs similar to other parts of the world could greatly reduce the effects and potential for forest fires as well as changing watershed quality. And these people site areas where their stewardship has proven a positive effect. Can you give us an example of where their practices have proven detrimental? Or is the information you are presenting theoretical? When reviewing the potential contracts for thinning, I have not seen any mention of herbicides, pesticides, or fertilizers to maintain a sustainable system. Many of the areas are re-growth areas that were involved in previous fire zones. Also, re-planting accelerates re-growth of those species that will assist in reforestation. It is my understanding that there are a number of invasive species that take over previous old growth areas that were damaged in fires and the thinning will promote re-growth of the more beneficial species. Personally, I do not maintain a lawn, yet I do hand pull invasive species of detrimental plants that encroach. Humanity has changed most natural environments--even the forest. Observing those changes, studying how to reclaim the beneficial aspects of what should be a natural process is a science. And I agree that many zealous attempts to improve a situation can backfire. But all in all, the task force of involved personnel for maintaining our forest resources are not flamboyant zealots. They are seasoned, dedicated professionals who do their job because they love the forest. Hope this helps to calm you. And by the way--we should make fuel ethanol instead of methanol from the forest slash. Best wishes, Peggy Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees These people use the same arguments that set us up in Canada and Australia and god knows where else for the woodchippers. That these little spindly, generally rewgrowth trees are useless, and here is a heaven sent opportunity to get them out of the way. Well the problem is that they are spindly and short lived because an old growth climax forest has essentially exhausted the soil and all the nutrients are tied up in the biomass. There are highly complex evolved systems including bacteria, fungi, and a pyramid of tiny creatures that process all detritus and recycle it into available (precious) nutrients which are quickly taken up and husbanded by whatever is alive and growing slowly at this point because of limiting factors of space, light, and nutrients. If you look at the water that comes out of such a forest, it is immediately obvious how efficiently the system maintains its nutrients, it is pure and clean. At this point there is no need for herbicides, pesticides or fertilizers to maintain a sustainable system but this isn't good enough for the boys, who want it all now, hell this stuff is overmature, going to die anyway, and there are struggling loggers who need to feed their families but more important major multinational companies with struggling executives and shareholders. So it is scalped by the concessionholders who pay their tithes - sorry a much smaller pittance to the ruling parties. Hey folks don't worry - now we have a regenerating new dynamic forest that is positively eating up CO2..and productive too, my word. Unfortunately it will be felled about the time it manages to sequester the carbon that was locked up in the slash and topsoil that was incinerated, much less replace the original biomass. Which it couldn't replace anyway because the nutrients are gone away on the log trucks and down the water courses into the rivers and ocean. It is accepted that potash loss from ashes washing out after a regeneration burn is about forty percent, so its hardly surprising that the new forest is well; a little spindly and weedy. If it is replaced by a plantation monoculture of fast feeding clones it will never even replace the native ecology and so aerial spraying of herbicides and pesticides and eventually fertilizers will be required to sustain productivity and this too will make its way into the river systems. You may say that wildfire is a natural process and we are only emulating this. Yes it is, but there are evolved systems ie the Aussie stringybark that actually directs fire into the crowns thereby lowering temperature at the ground, maintaining the topsoil and seedbed. When everything is lying on the ground it is so hot you get a beautiful pyronimbus cloud or some such bloody thing and all that is left is a pinky powder like the inside of a brick kiln. This is lauded by the forestry boys as a cheap and effective weed control and all you have to do is add seeds and stir. In a natural system the same thing happens but moderately and over time, and productivity is limited by something; in wet climates it is rates of nutrient
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Peggy, One of the problems of replanting is the fact that you end up bypassing natural succession of plants and animals in a re-growth area. Normally after a fire or clearing of trees ( preferable a low level fire that does not bake/sterilize the soil because the nutrients are then recycled ) for example in my local area, grasses and forbs fill the area, creating meadows. In 5 years or so shrubs and trees, like scrub oak and aspen start growing, slowly taking over the meadow. In about 10 years the aspen have a good start, and have almost filled the area, creating the right conditions for pines to start growing. After about 15-20 years the aspen start dieing out, making more light available to the pine seedlings and they really start growing.After about 25-30 years, most of the aspen have died, and the pines having less competition for nutrients start to get big. Depending on the species, pines ( and I include spruces and other evergreen trees in that category ), can live up to 150 yrs old, but, they are harvestable ( for lumber ) after they hit 35-40 yrs, depending on the weather conditions. So the wood is of harvestable size, after at least 40-50 years of succession growth, with the different plants and animals that go along with them. Big Timber which pays to harvest large amounts of trees, wants to shorten that amount of time, do they encourage the planting of young pines, short cutting the succession process. Ideally there should be patches of forest in all stages of succession, from meadow to old growth.This actualy helps prevent / slow down large fires, and provides the largest amount of wildlife diversity. Problems arise when the process is short circuited, fires stopped before they have a chance to remove the excess dead stuff from the forest floor and reducing it to usable nutrients for the trees that live through the fire. Drought and disease killing trees that are growing to close.Large areas of the same type of timber the same age, are more susceptible to insect attack and disease. I can go to a local national forest, and within a 10 mile area, see dead trees still standing, clumps of dieing trees, 1 to 3 acre areas where fire wood and Christmas tree cutting have opened up areas, were meadows are now, and the same size areas that were meadows 5-10 yrs ago are filled with aspen, and some small pines, but, by and large, the National Forest is filled with lots of dead stuff just laying on the ground, waiting for something to touch it off.Last Nov. I was directly involved in putting out a small fire in the area, because someone made a unauthorized campfire. the night before we were in the area, and failed to put it out correctly. A lot of the disagreement between state and national agencies ( and even with in the agencies ), arise about what to do with all this excess dead stuff laying around.Some want the local people to have more access to it for firewood, some want Big Timber to come in and thin it out, and others want to just leave it alone, still others think that controlled burns are the key, to dealing with the problem. Personally I think that Methanol should be made from the slash.It is a precursor chemical that has few ( if any ) substitutes to make others chemicals that make the products ( many of the plastics that you see and use, started with methanol ) in our daily life, but, it is currently being made from fossil fuel. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 08:00 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees When reviewing the potential contracts for thinning, I have not seen any mention of herbicides, pesticides, or fertilizers to maintain a sustainable system. Many of the areas are re-growth areas that were involved in previous fire zones. Also, re-planting accelerates re-growth of those species that will assist in reforestation. It is my understanding that there are a number of invasive species that take over previous old growth areas that were damaged in fires and the thinning will promote re-growth of the more beneficial species. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Hello Peggy. Go to the following web page and you'll find every thing 1976 to present db for (cellulosic AND ethanol): 7284 US patents. http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFu=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htmlr=71f=Gl=50d=PG01s1=%28lignocellulose+AND+ethanol%29p=2OS=lignocellulose+AND+ethanolRS=(lignocellulose+AND+ethanol Hans - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:31 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees It is possible to turn the cellulosic biomass into fuel ethanol instead of methanol. Peggy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Harbican Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 7:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees I really hope this is a technology that can be scaled down for home use. I have several trees ( and bushes ) in my yard that are causing problems, that I would like to turn into Methanol. Greg H. - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 02:17 Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees University of Washington invents process to converts small trees to methanol 12-October-04 Source:The Spokesman-Review http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1289.html Millions of scrawny, spindly trees choking Western forests could soon be harnessed as a clean source of renewable energy, according to researchers at the University of Washington. A process has been developed to quickly convert even the smallest trees and branches into methanol, which is used as a power source for fuel cell technology, said Kristiina Vogt, professor at the University of Washington's College of Forest Resources. All of this can be done without adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. Although the idea sounds too good to be true, Vogt insists Northwest forests could soon become an important national energy source. Apart from the energy, the process would help create new jobs and reduce the risk of catastrophic wildfire. You're going to see it in a couple of years, Vogt said. I'm serious. The technology is already available. We've got this huge resource, it's almost a no-brainer. Demonstration projects are planned for Republic and Forks, Wash., and on the Yakama Indian Reservation. The heart of the process involves converting previously unusable trees into wood alcohol. People have created methanol for more than 350 years, Vogt said, but the new technology is vastly more efficient and converts wood into liquid in a matter of minutes, leaving behind only mineral-laden ash, which can be used to fertilize the forest. Because the process has not yet been patented, Vogt did not want to discuss details. The methanol would then be used to power fuel cells, using a process developed by IdaTech, a company based in Bend, Ore. Fuel cells are essentially batteries that don't run down. They involve no combustion or moving parts, but rely on harnessing energy from hydrogen, which is the most abundant element in the universe. The byproduct of the reaction is pure water. Fuel cells are well past the level of science fiction, said Gary Schmitz, spokesman for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, of Golden, Colo. Although automobiles and even laptop computers are being powered by fuel cells - Toshiba recently developed a portable music player that can run for 20 hours on a half-teaspoon of methanol - significant hurdles remain before the technology becomes widely used. Finding the most efficient source of hydrogen is a major question, Schmitz said. Energy also is needed to separate the hydrogen from a carrier liquid, such as diesel, methanol or ethanol. The National Renewable Energy Lab, which is one of the leaders in the Bush administration's $350 million effort to create a hydrogen economy, is focusing its efforts on using solar and wind to power fuel cells, Schmitz said. Everyone understands that the potential of hydrogen fuel cells is very great, yet we have a far way to go. Methanol from wood has been proved to be among the most efficient power sources for fuel cells, Vogt said. Most of the government's attention, however, has been on converting Midwestern crops into ethanol, which is less efficient than methanol. The agricultural lobby has been so strong, Vogt said. They haven't even been looking at wood. Western forests also are filled with an abundance of small trees that have little commercial value, said Michael Andreu, program coordinator for the University of Washington's bioenergy program. Currently, landowners pay to have their forests thinned. Someday, they will earn money selling their unwanted saplings, Andreu said, during a presentation Monday at an international forestry convention
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Ethanol From Cellulose: A General Review http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-017.html Hans - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:31 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees It is possible to turn the cellulosic biomass into fuel ethanol instead of methanol. Peggy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Harbican Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 7:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees I really hope this is a technology that can be scaled down for home use. I have several trees ( and bushes ) in my yard that are causing problems, that I would like to turn into Methanol. Greg H. - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 02:17 Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees University of Washington invents process to converts small trees to methanol 12-October-04 Source:The Spokesman-Review http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1289.html Millions of scrawny, spindly trees choking Western forests could soon be harnessed as a clean source of renewable energy, according to researchers at the University of Washington. A process has been developed to quickly convert even the smallest trees and branches into methanol, which is used as a power source for fuel cell technology, said Kristiina Vogt, professor at the University of Washington's College of Forest Resources. All of this can be done without adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. Although the idea sounds too good to be true, Vogt insists Northwest forests could soon become an important national energy source. Apart from the energy, the process would help create new jobs and reduce the risk of catastrophic wildfire. You're going to see it in a couple of years, Vogt said. I'm serious. The technology is already available. We've got this huge resource, it's almost a no-brainer. Demonstration projects are planned for Republic and Forks, Wash., and on the Yakama Indian Reservation. The heart of the process involves converting previously unusable trees into wood alcohol. People have created methanol for more than 350 years, Vogt said, but the new technology is vastly more efficient and converts wood into liquid in a matter of minutes, leaving behind only mineral-laden ash, which can be used to fertilize the forest. Because the process has not yet been patented, Vogt did not want to discuss details. The methanol would then be used to power fuel cells, using a process developed by IdaTech, a company based in Bend, Ore. Fuel cells are essentially batteries that don't run down. They involve no combustion or moving parts, but rely on harnessing energy from hydrogen, which is the most abundant element in the universe. The byproduct of the reaction is pure water. Fuel cells are well past the level of science fiction, said Gary Schmitz, spokesman for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, of Golden, Colo. Although automobiles and even laptop computers are being powered by fuel cells - Toshiba recently developed a portable music player that can run for 20 hours on a half-teaspoon of methanol - significant hurdles remain before the technology becomes widely used. Finding the most efficient source of hydrogen is a major question, Schmitz said. Energy also is needed to separate the hydrogen from a carrier liquid, such as diesel, methanol or ethanol. The National Renewable Energy Lab, which is one of the leaders in the Bush administration's $350 million effort to create a hydrogen economy, is focusing its efforts on using solar and wind to power fuel cells, Schmitz said. Everyone understands that the potential of hydrogen fuel cells is very great, yet we have a far way to go. Methanol from wood has been proved to be among the most efficient power sources for fuel cells, Vogt said. Most of the government's attention, however, has been on converting Midwestern crops into ethanol, which is less efficient than methanol. The agricultural lobby has been so strong, Vogt said. They haven't even been looking at wood. Western forests also are filled with an abundance of small trees that have little commercial value, said Michael Andreu, program coordinator for the University of Washington's bioenergy program. Currently, landowners pay to have their forests thinned. Someday, they will earn money selling their unwanted saplings, Andreu said, during a presentation Monday at an international forestry convention in Edmonton, Alberta. One ton of biomass - anything from tree trunks to pine needles - can be converted into 186 gallons of methanol, Andreu said. With 190 million acres of the West needing thinning, the amount of potential fuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Hi Greg and All ; I have been reading with interest this thread. Does anyone have any specific process conditions for converting wood into methanol. I read somewhere that pyrolysis at normal atmosphereic pressure gives only 1-2% methanol in the gas stream. This does not sound very efficient. According to another book I have it is possible at 50 atmoshperes and special catalysts, but even then the gas conversion is only 8-10% per pass, and the gas must be re-compressed and passed thru the system again several times. Sounds quite complicated and energy intensive. Anyone have specific conditions, pressures, temperatures, catalysts, etc. for doing some testing?? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, and end up getting the BATF involved?No Thanks. Only one of the reasons I would rather deal with methanol and not ethanol. Turning cellulose into ethanol generally ( but not always ) takes a higher amount of production ability ( time, energy, equipment ), than using simpler sugars. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 10:31 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees It is possible to turn the cellulosic biomass into fuel ethanol instead of methanol. Peggy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Check the archives, their was a discussion several months back, but, Walt posted some info about good conversion rates with the catalyst ground to a powder, and in a liquid suspension.My last computer crash took the specific info with it. I found it once, using Methanol as the search word, but, that was after wading through several pages, to find it. Also Google liquid process methanol for some information. Walt you out there? If so, would you care to chime in and add any new information? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 18:21 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees Hi Greg and All ; I have been reading with interest this thread. Does anyone have any specific process conditions for converting wood into methanol. I read somewhere that pyrolysis at normal atmosphereic pressure gives only 1-2% methanol in the gas stream. This does not sound very efficient. According to another book I have it is possible at 50 atmoshperes and special catalysts, but even then the gas conversion is only 8-10% per pass, and the gas must be re-compressed and passed thru the system again several times. Sounds quite complicated and energy intensive. Anyone have specific conditions, pressures, temperatures, catalysts, etc. for doing some testing?? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, and end up getting the BATF involved?No Thanks. Only one of the reasons I would rather deal with methanol and not ethanol. Turning cellulose into ethanol generally ( but not always ) takes a higher amount of production ability ( time, energy, equipment ), than using simpler sugars. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 10:31 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees It is possible to turn the cellulosic biomass into fuel ethanol instead of methanol. Peggy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
It is possible to turn the cellulosic biomass into fuel ethanol instead of methanol. Peggy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Harbican Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 7:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees I really hope this is a technology that can be scaled down for home use. I have several trees ( and bushes ) in my yard that are causing problems, that I would like to turn into Methanol. Greg H. - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 02:17 Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees University of Washington invents process to converts small trees to methanol 12-October-04 Source:The Spokesman-Review http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1289.html Millions of scrawny, spindly trees choking Western forests could soon be harnessed as a clean source of renewable energy, according to researchers at the University of Washington. A process has been developed to quickly convert even the smallest trees and branches into methanol, which is used as a power source for fuel cell technology, said Kristiina Vogt, professor at the University of Washington's College of Forest Resources. All of this can be done without adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. Although the idea sounds too good to be true, Vogt insists Northwest forests could soon become an important national energy source. Apart from the energy, the process would help create new jobs and reduce the risk of catastrophic wildfire. You're going to see it in a couple of years, Vogt said. I'm serious. The technology is already available. We've got this huge resource, it's almost a no-brainer. Demonstration projects are planned for Republic and Forks, Wash., and on the Yakama Indian Reservation. The heart of the process involves converting previously unusable trees into wood alcohol. People have created methanol for more than 350 years, Vogt said, but the new technology is vastly more efficient and converts wood into liquid in a matter of minutes, leaving behind only mineral-laden ash, which can be used to fertilize the forest. Because the process has not yet been patented, Vogt did not want to discuss details. The methanol would then be used to power fuel cells, using a process developed by IdaTech, a company based in Bend, Ore. Fuel cells are essentially batteries that don't run down. They involve no combustion or moving parts, but rely on harnessing energy from hydrogen, which is the most abundant element in the universe. The byproduct of the reaction is pure water. Fuel cells are well past the level of science fiction, said Gary Schmitz, spokesman for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, of Golden, Colo. Although automobiles and even laptop computers are being powered by fuel cells - Toshiba recently developed a portable music player that can run for 20 hours on a half-teaspoon of methanol - significant hurdles remain before the technology becomes widely used. Finding the most efficient source of hydrogen is a major question, Schmitz said. Energy also is needed to separate the hydrogen from a carrier liquid, such as diesel, methanol or ethanol. The National Renewable Energy Lab, which is one of the leaders in the Bush administration's $350 million effort to create a hydrogen economy, is focusing its efforts on using solar and wind to power fuel cells, Schmitz said. Everyone understands that the potential of hydrogen fuel cells is very great, yet we have a far way to go. Methanol from wood has been proved to be among the most efficient power sources for fuel cells, Vogt said. Most of the government's attention, however, has been on converting Midwestern crops into ethanol, which is less efficient than methanol. The agricultural lobby has been so strong, Vogt said. They haven't even been looking at wood. Western forests also are filled with an abundance of small trees that have little commercial value, said Michael Andreu, program coordinator for the University of Washington's bioenergy program. Currently, landowners pay to have their forests thinned. Someday, they will earn money selling their unwanted saplings, Andreu said, during a presentation Monday at an international forestry convention in Edmonton, Alberta. One ton of biomass - anything from tree trunks to pine needles - can be converted into 186 gallons of methanol, Andreu said. With 190 million acres of the West needing thinning, the amount of potential fuel is in the billions of gallons, he said. Extensive research is under way in Europe on transforming forest biomass into fuels. Sweden recently determined it could power 30 percent of its transportation system with bio-fuels. It's an amazing resource that's just standing out there, Andreu said. This can keep people working in the woods and rural economies viable. The University
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Sure, and end up getting the BATF involved?No Thanks. Only one of the reasons I would rather deal with methanol and not ethanol. Turning cellulose into ethanol generally ( but not always ) takes a higher amount of production ability ( time, energy, equipment ), than using simpler sugars. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 10:31 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees It is possible to turn the cellulosic biomass into fuel ethanol instead of methanol. Peggy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Thanks Keith! For some reason, me and the archives just don't mesh real well, and I have the longest time trying to track down a particular post.Took me 3 hrs to find the one that I was looking for earlier this week. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 12:04 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees Hi Greg I have seen the Alternatives to Fossil Fueled Engine/Generators , before, but to me it looked like a guess work mixed with facts. I liked the looks of the alternative of using a 36 V electrical arc to convert a water/sugar solution to H2 and CO and running it through a liquid suspended catalyst.This was presented on this list when we were back on the yahoo list, but, for the life of me, since my computer crash and moving to the wwia list, I have not been able to find the actual posting in the archives or remember who posted it ( Gr ). http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/16362/ A sweet solution for automotive fuel 2002-08-31 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/20533/ Fwd: New fuel cell runs on sugar syrup---who needs Exxon anyway. 2003-02-01 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/26156/ Researchers find new metal combination for cheaper production of 2003-07-03 I always liked the look of SOFCs ( Solid Oxide Fuel Cells ) for their flexibility of fuel use and the high temperature of operation for co-generation, use for hot water or building heat. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/8458/ Prototype Fuel Cell Runs On Liquid Diesel 2001-09-07 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/19628/ Fuel cell uses liquid diesel 2003-01-01 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/19627/ Milestone in the development of micro fuel cell technology 2003-01-01 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/25896/ Breakthrough in Solid Oxide Fuel Cells 2003-06-23 HTH Keith Greg H. - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:00 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees Greg Harbican wrote: I really hope this is a technology that can be scaled down for home use. I have several trees ( and bushes ) in my yard that are causing problems, that I would like to turn into Methanol. Greg H. I happened to see your reply in the archives. There was something mentioned in Alternatives to Fossil Fueled Engine/Generators by Clifford W. Mossberg http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html If your goal is to produce methyl alcohol (methanol) somewhere under the heading, Wood Gasification Basics Perhaps this is to controversial particularly regarding Direct Methanol Fuel Cells http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/fuelcells/fc_types.html ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Hi Greg, SOFC also can be used off methane from sewerage treatment and high temp provides internal reformation to hydrogen, truely flexible and robust cell, if there is a fuel cell worth pursuing has to be SOFC/ Direct methane unit as overacomes gas generation/ storage/ reformation problems, also provides reliable supply. dD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have seen the Alternatives to Fossil Fueled Engine/Generators , before, but to me it looked like a guess work mixed with facts. I liked the looks of the alternative of using a 36 V electrical arc to convert a water/sugar solution to H2 and CO and running it through a liquid suspended catalyst.This was presented on this list when we were back on the yahoo list, but, for the life of me, since my computer crash and moving to the wwia list, I have not been able to find the actual posting in the archives or remember who posted it ( Gr ). I always liked the look of SOFCs ( Solid Oxide Fuel Cells ) for their flexibility of fuel use and the high temperature of operation for co-generation, use for hot water or building heat. Greg H. - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:00 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees Greg Harbican wrote: I really hope this is a technology that can be scaled down for home use. I have several trees ( and bushes ) in my yard that are causing problems, that I would like to turn into Methanol. Greg H. I happened to see your reply in the archives. There was something mentioned in Alternatives to Fossil Fueled Engine/Generators by Clifford W. Mossberg http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html If your goal is to produce methyl alcohol (methanol) somewhere under the heading, Wood Gasification Basics Perhaps this is to controversial particularly regarding Direct Methanol Fuel Cells http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/fuelcells/fc_types.html ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ _ Sign up for eircom broadband now and get a free two month trial.* Phone 1850 73 00 73 or visit http://home.eircom.net/broadbandoffer ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
I have seen the Alternatives to Fossil Fueled Engine/Generators , before, but to me it looked like a guess work mixed with facts. I liked the looks of the alternative of using a 36 V electrical arc to convert a water/sugar solution to H2 and CO and running it through a liquid suspended catalyst.This was presented on this list when we were back on the yahoo list, but, for the life of me, since my computer crash and moving to the wwia list, I have not been able to find the actual posting in the archives or remember who posted it ( Gr ). I always liked the look of SOFCs ( Solid Oxide Fuel Cells ) for their flexibility of fuel use and the high temperature of operation for co-generation, use for hot water or building heat. Greg H. - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:00 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees Greg Harbican wrote: I really hope this is a technology that can be scaled down for home use. I have several trees ( and bushes ) in my yard that are causing problems, that I would like to turn into Methanol. Greg H. I happened to see your reply in the archives. There was something mentioned in Alternatives to Fossil Fueled Engine/Generators by Clifford W. Mossberg http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html If your goal is to produce methyl alcohol (methanol) somewhere under the heading, Wood Gasification Basics Perhaps this is to controversial particularly regarding Direct Methanol Fuel Cells http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/fuelcells/fc_types.html ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
I have seen the Alternatives to Fossil Fueled Engine/Generators , before, but to me it looked like a guess work mixed with facts. I liked the looks of the alternative of using a 36 V electrical arc to convert a water/sugar solution to H2 and CO and running it through a liquid suspended catalyst.This was presented on this list when we were back on the yahoo list, but, for the life of me, since my computer crash and moving to the wwia list, I have not been able to find the actual posting in the archives or remember who posted it ( Gr ). http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/16362/ A sweet solution for automotive fuel 2002-08-31 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/20533/ Fwd: New fuel cell runs on sugar syrup---who needs Exxon anyway. 2003-02-01 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/26156/ Researchers find new metal combination for cheaper production of 2003-07-03 I always liked the look of SOFCs ( Solid Oxide Fuel Cells ) for their flexibility of fuel use and the high temperature of operation for co-generation, use for hot water or building heat. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/8458/ Prototype Fuel Cell Runs On Liquid Diesel 2001-09-07 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/19628/ Fuel cell uses liquid diesel 2003-01-01 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/19627/ Milestone in the development of micro fuel cell technology 2003-01-01 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/25896/ Breakthrough in Solid Oxide Fuel Cells 2003-06-23 HTH Keith Greg H. - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:00 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees Greg Harbican wrote: I really hope this is a technology that can be scaled down for home use. I have several trees ( and bushes ) in my yard that are causing problems, that I would like to turn into Methanol. Greg H. I happened to see your reply in the archives. There was something mentioned in Alternatives to Fossil Fueled Engine/Generators by Clifford W. Mossberg http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html If your goal is to produce methyl alcohol (methanol) somewhere under the heading, Wood Gasification Basics Perhaps this is to controversial particularly regarding Direct Methanol Fuel Cells http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/fuelcells/fc_types.html ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
Greg Harbican wrote: I really hope this is a technology that can be scaled down for home use. I have several trees ( and bushes ) in my yard that are causing problems, that I would like to turn into Methanol. Greg H. I happened to see your reply in the archives. There was something mentioned in Alternatives to Fossil Fueled Engine/Generators by Clifford W. Mossberg http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html If your goal is to produce methyl alcohol (methanol) somewhere under the heading, Wood Gasification Basics Perhaps this is to controversial particularly regarding Direct Methanol Fuel Cells http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/fuelcells/fc_types.html - Original Message - University of Washington invents process to converts small trees to methanol 12-October-04 Source:The Spokesman-Review http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1289.html ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
University of Washington invents process to converts small trees to methanol 12-October-04 Source:The Spokesman-Review http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1289.html Millions of scrawny, spindly trees choking Western forests could soon be harnessed as a clean source of renewable energy, according to researchers at the University of Washington. A process has been developed to quickly convert even the smallest trees and branches into methanol, which is used as a power source for fuel cell technology, said Kristiina Vogt, professor at the University of Washington's College of Forest Resources. All of this can be done without adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. Although the idea sounds too good to be true, Vogt insists Northwest forests could soon become an important national energy source. Apart from the energy, the process would help create new jobs and reduce the risk of catastrophic wildfire. You're going to see it in a couple of years, Vogt said. I'm serious. The technology is already available. We've got this huge resource, it's almost a no-brainer. Demonstration projects are planned for Republic and Forks, Wash., and on the Yakama Indian Reservation. The heart of the process involves converting previously unusable trees into wood alcohol. People have created methanol for more than 350 years, Vogt said, but the new technology is vastly more efficient and converts wood into liquid in a matter of minutes, leaving behind only mineral-laden ash, which can be used to fertilize the forest. Because the process has not yet been patented, Vogt did not want to discuss details. The methanol would then be used to power fuel cells, using a process developed by IdaTech, a company based in Bend, Ore. Fuel cells are essentially batteries that don't run down. They involve no combustion or moving parts, but rely on harnessing energy from hydrogen, which is the most abundant element in the universe. The byproduct of the reaction is pure water. Fuel cells are well past the level of science fiction, said Gary Schmitz, spokesman for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, of Golden, Colo. Although automobiles and even laptop computers are being powered by fuel cells ö Toshiba recently developed a portable music player that can run for 20 hours on a half-teaspoon of methanol ö significant hurdles remain before the technology becomes widely used. Finding the most efficient source of hydrogen is a major question, Schmitz said. Energy also is needed to separate the hydrogen from a carrier liquid, such as diesel, methanol or ethanol. The National Renewable Energy Lab, which is one of the leaders in the Bush administration's $350 million effort to create a hydrogen economy, is focusing its efforts on using solar and wind to power fuel cells, Schmitz said. Everyone understands that the potential of hydrogen fuel cells is very great, yet we have a far way to go. Methanol from wood has been proved to be among the most efficient power sources for fuel cells, Vogt said. Most of the government's attention, however, has been on converting Midwestern crops into ethanol, which is less efficient than methanol. The agricultural lobby has been so strong, Vogt said. They haven't even been looking at wood. Western forests also are filled with an abundance of small trees that have little commercial value, said Michael Andreu, program coordinator for the University of Washington's bioenergy program. Currently, landowners pay to have their forests thinned. Someday, they will earn money selling their unwanted saplings, Andreu said, during a presentation Monday at an international forestry convention in Edmonton, Alberta. One ton of biomass ö anything from tree trunks to pine needles ö can be converted into 186 gallons of methanol, Andreu said. With 190 million acres of the West needing thinning, the amount of potential fuel is in the billions of gallons, he said. Extensive research is under way in Europe on transforming forest biomass into fuels. Sweden recently determined it could power 30 percent of its transportation system with bio-fuels. It's an amazing resource that's just standing out there, Andreu said. This can keep people working in the woods and rural economies viable. The University of Washington hopes to have demonstration projects under way in a year, Vogt said. Sustainable, environmentally friendly harvest techniques are key to the process, she added. Once the technology has been proved, Vogt envisions a future with many small biomass conversion plants and communities capable of generating their own power from the forest. It's going to be very soon, Vogt said. The technology already exists. This is reality already. It's not like this is a dream. Cost remains the biggest barrier, but rising oil prices and the increased instability in oil-supplying nations is changing that, said Edwin White, dean of research
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees
I really hope this is a technology that can be scaled down for home use. I have several trees ( and bushes ) in my yard that are causing problems, that I would like to turn into Methanol. Greg H. - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 02:17 Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees University of Washington invents process to converts small trees to methanol 12-October-04 Source:The Spokesman-Review http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1289.html Millions of scrawny, spindly trees choking Western forests could soon be harnessed as a clean source of renewable energy, according to researchers at the University of Washington. A process has been developed to quickly convert even the smallest trees and branches into methanol, which is used as a power source for fuel cell technology, said Kristiina Vogt, professor at the University of Washington's College of Forest Resources. All of this can be done without adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. Although the idea sounds too good to be true, Vogt insists Northwest forests could soon become an important national energy source. Apart from the energy, the process would help create new jobs and reduce the risk of catastrophic wildfire. You're going to see it in a couple of years, Vogt said. I'm serious. The technology is already available. We've got this huge resource, it's almost a no-brainer. Demonstration projects are planned for Republic and Forks, Wash., and on the Yakama Indian Reservation. The heart of the process involves converting previously unusable trees into wood alcohol. People have created methanol for more than 350 years, Vogt said, but the new technology is vastly more efficient and converts wood into liquid in a matter of minutes, leaving behind only mineral-laden ash, which can be used to fertilize the forest. Because the process has not yet been patented, Vogt did not want to discuss details. The methanol would then be used to power fuel cells, using a process developed by IdaTech, a company based in Bend, Ore. Fuel cells are essentially batteries that don't run down. They involve no combustion or moving parts, but rely on harnessing energy from hydrogen, which is the most abundant element in the universe. The byproduct of the reaction is pure water. Fuel cells are well past the level of science fiction, said Gary Schmitz, spokesman for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, of Golden, Colo. Although automobiles and even laptop computers are being powered by fuel cells - Toshiba recently developed a portable music player that can run for 20 hours on a half-teaspoon of methanol - significant hurdles remain before the technology becomes widely used. Finding the most efficient source of hydrogen is a major question, Schmitz said. Energy also is needed to separate the hydrogen from a carrier liquid, such as diesel, methanol or ethanol. The National Renewable Energy Lab, which is one of the leaders in the Bush administration's $350 million effort to create a hydrogen economy, is focusing its efforts on using solar and wind to power fuel cells, Schmitz said. Everyone understands that the potential of hydrogen fuel cells is very great, yet we have a far way to go. Methanol from wood has been proved to be among the most efficient power sources for fuel cells, Vogt said. Most of the government's attention, however, has been on converting Midwestern crops into ethanol, which is less efficient than methanol. The agricultural lobby has been so strong, Vogt said. They haven't even been looking at wood. Western forests also are filled with an abundance of small trees that have little commercial value, said Michael Andreu, program coordinator for the University of Washington's bioenergy program. Currently, landowners pay to have their forests thinned. Someday, they will earn money selling their unwanted saplings, Andreu said, during a presentation Monday at an international forestry convention in Edmonton, Alberta. One ton of biomass - anything from tree trunks to pine needles - can be converted into 186 gallons of methanol, Andreu said. With 190 million acres of the West needing thinning, the amount of potential fuel is in the billions of gallons, he said. Extensive research is under way in Europe on transforming forest biomass into fuels. Sweden recently determined it could power 30 percent of its transportation system with bio-fuels. It's an amazing resource that's just standing out there, Andreu said. This can keep people working in the woods and rural economies viable. The University of Washington hopes to have demonstration projects under way in a year, Vogt said. Sustainable, environmentally friendly harvest techniques are key to the process, she added. Once the technology has been proved, Vogt envisions a future with many small biomass conversion plants and communities capable
