Dear Peggy It would take days to bridge gaps between the theoretical, the industry perspective, and the grossly different realities that stem from conflicts of interest, generally self interest between conservationists, industry shills (foresters), the industry players and the political machines. But you are obviously involved in forestry and I'm sure you have read hundreds of papers, proving things like 'thinning has reduced fire risk on the western slopes of Mt. Rushmore." I once received one from our state premier from the head of forestry (Tasmania) proving potash levels in soil to be several times higher after clearfelling and burning than it is in a pristine oldgrowth forest. Well hooray. I have no doubt it is true, but taken alone it allows for a kind of munchkinesque refutation of my own point, which was where had the rest of it gone from the whole system and how after another one or two more harvest sequences would there be enough to grow yet another forest? History and experience are maybe the only things we can really trust. Fly from Vancouver to San Francisco and look down from thirty thousand feet. The giant coniferous forests are gone, it looks like the whole world has been attacked by some mad barber, only about thirty percent of the clearcuts have anything of size on them. The tiny national parks stand like islands in the devastation. How is the salmon fishery going after the devastation of the streams they breed in? You know very well. You want to find out about pesticides? Well there must be some literature around on the yearly aerial spraying of organochlorides for spruce budworm in eastern Canada back in the sixties, (funny there was no great problem before the industry got involved), but that was before the blessed advent of triazines, organophosphates and synthetic pyrethroids which we are drinking here now because (and you will note I mentioned these things in reference to monoculture plantation forestry only.) otherwise the beetles breed up to fill the niche we created for them and want to take much of the yearly growth increment. The literature on Dominex says definitely not to be used within 20 metres of a stream or watercourse but how do you do that from a helicopter in the roaring forties where the stuff drifts for miles and where are our giant freshwater lobsters going not to mention smaller stream life and therefore fish? They are going fast and everybody knows it, you don't need to pay some monkey to write a paper. When the woodchippers came in to 'take the rubbish left on the forest floor' we didn't know they actually wanted nice stems, free of rot or charcoal, and now it seems natural forest doesn't produce enough for these guys - we have an industry to sustain. I've been working in the forest (salvage, sawmilling) for a good many years , seen it all, as for the highly selective literature the colleges push at you kids I just don't have the time. Best wishes
"Peggy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 1:00 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees > Hi George, > > How is it that both state forestry people and federal forestry people > have a different view? It has been repeated again and again within the > areas that suffer the most forest fires, that maintenance programs > similar to other parts of the world could greatly reduce the effects and > potential for forest fires as well as changing watershed quality. And > these people site areas where their stewardship has proven a positive > effect. Can you give us an example of where their practices have proven > detrimental? Or is the information you are presenting theoretical? > > When reviewing the potential contracts for thinning, I have not seen any > mention of herbicides, pesticides, or fertilizers to maintain a > sustainable system. Many of the areas are re-growth areas that were > involved in previous fire zones. Also, re-planting accelerates > re-growth of those species that will assist in reforestation. It is my > understanding that there are a number of "invasive" species that take > over previous "old growth" areas that were damaged in fires and the > thinning will promote re-growth of the more beneficial species. > > Personally, I do not maintain a lawn, yet I do hand pull invasive > species of detrimental plants that encroach. Humanity has changed most > natural environments--even the forest. Observing those changes, > studying how to reclaim the beneficial aspects of what should be a > natural process is a science. And I agree that many zealous attempts to > improve a situation can backfire. But all in all, the task force of > involved personnel for maintaining our forest resources are not > flamboyant zealots. They are seasoned, dedicated professionals who do > their job because they love the forest. Hope this helps to calm you. > And by the way--we should make fuel ethanol instead of methanol from the > forest slash. > > Best wishes, > Peggy > > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees > > These people use the same arguments that set us up in Canada and > Australia > and god knows where else for the woodchippers. That these little > spindly, > generally rewgrowth trees are useless, and here is a heaven sent > opportunity > to get them out of the way. > Well the problem is that they are spindly and short lived because an old > growth climax forest has essentially exhausted the soil and all the > nutrients are tied up in the biomass. There are highly complex evolved > systems including bacteria, fungi, and a pyramid of tiny creatures that > process all detritus and recycle it into available (precious) nutrients > which are quickly taken up and husbanded by whatever is alive and > growing > slowly at this point because of limiting factors of space, light, and > nutrients. If you look at the water that comes out of such a forest, it > is > immediately obvious how efficiently the system maintains its nutrients, > it > is pure and clean. At this point there is no need for herbicides, > pesticides or fertilizers to maintain a sustainable system but this > isn't > good enough for the boys, who want it all now, hell this stuff is > overmature, going to die anyway, and there are struggling loggers who > need > to feed their families but more important major multinational companies > with > struggling executives and shareholders. > So it is scalped by the concessionholders who pay their tithes - sorry a > much smaller pittance to the ruling parties. Hey folks don't worry - > now we > have a regenerating new dynamic forest that is positively eating up > CO2..and > productive too, my word. > Unfortunately it will be felled about the time it manages to sequester > the > carbon that was locked up in the slash and topsoil that was incinerated, > much less replace the original biomass. Which it couldn't replace > anyway > because the nutrients are gone away on the log trucks and down the water > courses into the rivers and ocean. It is accepted that potash loss from > ashes washing out after a regeneration burn is about forty percent, so > its > hardly surprising that the new forest is well; a little spindly and > weedy. > If it is replaced by a plantation monoculture of fast feeding clones it > will never even replace the native ecology and so aerial spraying of > herbicides and pesticides and eventually fertilizers will be required to > sustain productivity and this too will make its way into the river > systems. > You may say that wildfire is a natural process and we are only emulating > this. Yes it is, but there are evolved systems ie the Aussie > stringybark > that actually directs fire into the crowns thereby lowering temperature > at > the ground, maintaining the topsoil and seedbed. When everything is > lying > on the ground it is so hot you get a beautiful pyronimbus cloud or some > such > bloody thing and all that is left is a pinky powder like the inside of a > brick kiln. This is lauded by the forestry boys as a cheap and > effective > weed control and all you have to do is add seeds and stir. > In a natural system the same thing happens but moderately and over time, > and > productivity is limited by something; in wet climates it is rates of > nutrient coming in and out - in via deep weathering and wind blown dust > and > tiny impurities in rainwater, out by leaching and various other > transport by > wind, water and living creatures. > This isn't to argue against methanol production, just that if it is > going to > be done, is it possible to do it with small plants that move around, > thinning the forest and spreading the byproduct back over the places it > came > from, with minimal disturbance, taking only stored solar energy or is > it > going to be yet another extractive industry that requires even greater > volumes of organic matter pulled out into the centralized depots like > industrial plants and cities in a system that is so efficiently > destroying > this planet? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hans Etienne Parisis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 7:01 AM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees > > > > Hello Peggy. > > Go to the following web page and you'll find every thing > > 1976 to present db for (cellulosic AND ethanol): 7284 US patents. > > > > > http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2F > netahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=71&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&s1=%28lignocellulo > se+AND+ethanol%29&p=2&OS=lignocellulose+AND+ethanol&RS=(lignocellulose+A > ND+ethanol > > Hans > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Peggy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:31 AM > > Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees > > > > > > > It is possible to turn the cellulosic biomass into fuel ethanol > instead > > > of methanol. > > > > > > Peggy > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > Behalf Of Greg Harbican > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 7:46 AM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees > > > > > > I really hope this is a technology that can be scaled down for home > use. > > > I have several trees ( and bushes ) in my yard that are causing > > > problems, > > > that I would like to turn into Methanol. > > > > > > Greg H. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 02:17 > > > Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol from Trees > > > > > > > > > University of Washington invents process to converts small trees to > > > methanol > > > 12-October-04 > > > Source:The Spokesman-Review > > > http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1289.html > > > > > > Millions of scrawny, spindly trees choking Western forests could > soon > > > be > > > harnessed as a clean source of renewable energy, according to > > > researchers > > > at the University of Washington. > > > > > > A process has been developed to quickly convert even the smallest > trees > > > and branches into methanol, which is used as a power source for > fuel > > > cell > > > technology, said Kristiina Vogt, professor at the University of > > > Washington's College of Forest Resources. All of this can be done > > > without > > > adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. > > > > > > Although the idea sounds too good to be true, Vogt insists > Northwest > > > forests > > > could soon become an important national energy source. Apart from > the > > > energy, > > > the process would help create new jobs and reduce the risk of > > > catastrophic > > > wildfire. > > > > > > "You're going to see it in a couple of years," Vogt said. "I'm > serious. > > > The technology is already available. We've got this huge resource, > > > it's almost a no-brainer." > > > > > > Demonstration projects are planned for Republic and Forks, Wash., > and > > > on the Yakama Indian Reservation. > > > > > > The heart of the process involves converting previously unusable > trees > > > into > > > wood alcohol. People have created methanol for more than 350 years, > > > Vogt > > > said, > > > but the new technology is vastly more efficient and converts wood > into > > > liquid > > > "in a matter of minutes," leaving behind only mineral-laden ash, > which > > > can > > > be > > > used to fertilize the forest. Because the process has not yet been > > > patented, > > > Vogt did not want to discuss details. > > > > > > The methanol would then be used to power fuel cells, using a > process > > > developed by IdaTech, a company based in Bend, Ore. Fuel cells are > > > essentially batteries that don't run down. They involve no > combustion > > > or > > > moving parts, but rely on harnessing energy from hydrogen, which is > the > > > most abundant element in the universe. The byproduct of the > reaction > > > is pure water. > > > > > > Fuel cells are well past the level of science fiction, said Gary > > > Schmitz, > > > spokesman for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, of Golden, > > > Colo. > > > Although automobiles and even laptop computers are being powered by > > > fuel cells - Toshiba recently developed a portable music player > that > > > can > > > run for 20 hours on a half-teaspoon of methanol - significant > hurdles > > > remain before the technology becomes widely used. Finding the most > > > efficient source of hydrogen is a major question, Schmitz said. > > > Energy also is needed to separate the hydrogen from a carrier > liquid, > > > such as diesel, methanol or ethanol. > > > > > > The National Renewable Energy Lab, which is one of the leaders in > the > > > Bush administration's $350 million effort to create a "hydrogen > > > economy," > > > is focusing its efforts on using solar and wind to power fuel > cells, > > > Schmitz said. "Everyone understands that the potential of hydrogen > fuel > > > cells is very great, yet we have a far way to go." > > > > > > Methanol from wood has been proved to be among the most efficient > > > power sources for fuel cells, Vogt said. Most of the government's > > > attention, however, has been on converting Midwestern crops into > > > ethanol, which is less efficient than methanol. > > > > > > "The agricultural lobby has been so strong," Vogt said. > > > "They haven't even been looking at wood." > > > > > > Western forests also are filled with an abundance of small trees > that > > > have little commercial value, said Michael Andreu, program > coordinator > > > for the University of Washington's bioenergy program. > > > > > > Currently, landowners pay to have their forests thinned. Someday, > > > they will earn money selling their unwanted saplings, Andreu said, > > > during a presentation Monday at an international forestry > convention > > > in Edmonton, Alberta. > > > > > > One ton of biomass - anything from tree trunks to pine needles - > can be > > > converted into 186 gallons of methanol, Andreu said. With 190 > million > > > acres > > > of the West needing thinning, the amount of potential fuel is in > the > > > "billions of gallons," he said. Extensive research is under way in > > > Europe on transforming forest biomass into fuels. > > > > > > Sweden recently determined it could power 30 percent of its > > > transportation system with bio-fuels. > > > > > > "It's an amazing resource that's just standing out there," Andreu > said. > > > "This can keep people working in the woods and rural economies > viable." > > > > > > The University of Washington hopes to have demonstration projects > > > under way in a year, Vogt said. Sustainable, environmentally > friendly > > > harvest techniques are key to the process, she added. Once the > > > technology has been proved, Vogt envisions a future with many > > > small biomass conversion plants and communities capable of > > > generating their own power from the forest. > > > > > > "It's going to be very soon," Vogt said. "The technology already > > > exists. > > > This is reality already. It's not like this is a dream." > > > > > > Cost remains the biggest barrier, but rising oil prices and the > > > increased instability in oil-supplying nations is changing that, > > > said Edwin White, dean of research at the State University of > > > New York's College of Environmental Science and Forestry. > > > "What's going to push it is national security." > > > > > > Fuel cell research is advancing more quickly than ever because of > > > a renewed push by private industry, White said. > > > > > > The viability of the forest industry depends on finding new uses > > > for trees, especially as the global market becomes flooded with > > > cheap timber from South America and southeast Asia, White said. > > > Many people have difficulty believing spindly trees could > > > someday play a critical role in the nation's energy supply, > > > White said, but few people 200 years ago would have believed > > > the future value of the slippery black liquid that oozed > > > freely out of Middle Eastern deserts. > > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><> > > > > > > > > > Cellulose ethanol -- > > > Theoretical yields per dry ton for > > > some commonly considered biomass feedstocks include: > > > Feedstock Theoretical Yield in US gallons > > > per dry ton of feedstock > > > Corn Grain 124.4 > > > Corn Stover 113.0 > > > Rice Straw 109.9 > > > Cotton Gin Trash 56.8 > > > Forest Thinnings 81.5 > > > Hardwood Sawdust 100.8 > > > Bagasse 111.5 > > > Mixed Paper 116.2 > > > http://www.eere.energy.gov/biomass/ethanol_yield_calculator.html > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuel mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
