Re: [Biofuel] Question about hemp production

[Keith Addison]

Thankyou Kirk, that helps.

I think I'll leave it as it is.

All best

Keith


>from seed to seed in 4 months is a bit quick. People I knew in Ca 
>planted inMarch- April harvested oct -nov
>The plant can be induced to seed by lengthening the night. One 
>fellow I knew (a bucket planter) put them in the garage for the 
>weekend (no light) and that got their chemistry flowering. He then 
>moved them outdoors and even though it was June or July he was 
>producing colas.
>The biomass is there and the seed. I have seen a trunk 4 inches in 
>dia. Plant was 20 feet tall. Not crowded and fertilized though.
>Ah - the good old days ;)
>
>I believe the answer is yes. but not 4 months. I dont authoritively 
>know because I never knew a grower looking to produce seed.
>Truly a GOD given plant for the healing of the nations.
>The oil is one of the few veggie sources of Omega 3
>The fiber is stronger than flax.
>The plant is uv resistant - another interesting factoid.
>
>Kirk
>
>Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Hello all
>
>It says at our website: "An acre of hemp yields 10 tons of biomass in
>four months, enough to make 1,000 gallons of methanol fuel (by
>pyrolytic distillation), with about 300 lb of oil from the seed
>(about the same as soy)."
>
>That's under "Invisible farming" in this section: "How much fuel can
>we grow? How much land will it take?"
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch
>
>The 1,000 gallons came from Kirk, in a comment on the usual question,
>"Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels?" Kirk said "1000
>gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation."
>I think that's right.
>
>My doubt is whether it can produce both the biomass and 300 lb of oil
>from the seed, or whether it's either/or.
>
>Anybody know?
>
>Thanks!
>
>All best
>
>Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Question about hemp production

[Kirk McLoren]

from seed to seed in 4 months is a bit quick. People I knew in Ca planted 
inMarch- April harvested oct -nov
  The plant can be induced to seed by lengthening the night. One fellow I knew 
(a bucket planter) put them in the garage for the weekend (no light) and that 
got their chemistry flowering. He then moved them outdoors and even though it 
was June or July he was producing colas.
  The biomass is there and the seed. I have seen a trunk 4 inches in dia. Plant 
was 20 feet tall. Not crowded and fertilized though.
  Ah - the good old days ;)
   
  I believe the answer is yes. but not 4 months. I dont authoritively know 
because I never knew a grower looking to produce seed. 
  Truly a GOD given plant for the healing of the nations.
  The oil is one of the few veggie sources of Omega 3
  The fiber is stronger than flax.
  The plant is uv resistant - another interesting factoid.
   
  Kirk

Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Hello all

It says at our website: "An acre of hemp yields 10 tons of biomass in 
four months, enough to make 1,000 gallons of methanol fuel (by 
pyrolytic distillation), with about 300 lb of oil from the seed 
(about the same as soy)."

That's under "Invisible farming" in this section: "How much fuel can 
we grow? How much land will it take?"
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch

The 1,000 gallons came from Kirk, in a comment on the usual question, 
"Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels?" Kirk said "1000 
gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation." 
I think that's right.

My doubt is whether it can produce both the biomass and 300 lb of oil 
from the seed, or whether it's either/or.

Anybody know?

Thanks!

All best

Keith

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[Biofuel] Question about hemp production

[Keith Addison]

Hello all

It says at our website: "An acre of hemp yields 10 tons of biomass in 
four months, enough to make 1,000 gallons of methanol fuel (by 
pyrolytic distillation), with about 300 lb of oil from the seed 
(about the same as soy)."

That's under "Invisible farming" in this section: "How much fuel can 
we grow? How much land will it take?"
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch

The 1,000 gallons came from Kirk, in a comment on the usual question, 
"Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels?" Kirk said "1000 
gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation." 
I think that's right.

My doubt is whether it can produce both the biomass and 300 lb of oil 
from the seed, or whether it's either/or.

Anybody know?

Thanks!

All best

Keith

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[Biofuel] Question

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hi all,
came across some info on Jatropha oil recently. The oil from some spieces is 
considered non-edible, but I have found no reason for it. Can somebody spread a 
little light on this ?

Jan Warnqvist
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[Biofuel] Question re Internet hosts in India

[Keith Addison]

Would any list members in India who know anything about Internet host 
services domiciled in India that are capable of handling an 
international website reliably and affordably please be so kind as to 
contact me offlist?

Many thanks!

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/

 

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Re: [Biofuel] Question on clogged filters

[Appal Energy]

Volume change in the head space (air) due to expansion and contraction. 
Volume in fuel didn't change.

Generally, filter clogging is a product of the biodiesel stripping off 
varnish, paraffin and rust in bulk fuel tanks. The fine, light-colored 
"sediment" is probably stearic methyl esters, I would imagine from the 
tallow fraction of the feedstock. You could gently heat them (if you can 
filter them out) a degree at a time and see at what temp they liquify. 
Chances are they've precipitated out due to the colder temp at floor 
level, more so if it's a concrete floor.

Todd Swearingen


Joe Street wrote:

>Hey Todd;
>
>I know we are not supposed to store fuel for long periods but I do have 
>some samples that I have kept around for over a year.  Although these 
>were well reacted and crystal clear ( I check with a laser to guage 
>this) after a long time I do get some extremely fine light coloured 
>sediment. I assume this is stearins but I suppose it could be a result 
>of some oxidation or something else that happens over time and exposure 
>to air (closed bottle though) I also notice that in a flexible plastic 
>cubie which is sealed, over a relatively short time (months) there is a 
>volume reduction that takes place as I can see a deformation of the 
>container which indicates a slight vacuum inside.  I assume this is due 
>to oxygen reacting with the fuel? Is this a good assumption? Is the 
>sediment I talked about the source of the filter clogging in bulk storage?
>
>Joe
>
>Appal Energy wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend.
>>>  
>>>
>>Not. It's a reality. More predominant in bulk fuel storage. Automobiles can 
>>generally get away with regular maintenace intervals as the fuel is 
>>constantly being sloshed and jostled, not allowing the gringe to aggregate in 
>>abundance.
>>
>>Todd Swearingen 
>>
>>
>>
>>Joe Street wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi all;
>>>
>>>I keep hearing about the cleansing effect of BD and how it clogs fuel 
>>>filters.  Tom even mentioned it in his post about sharing biodiesel as 
>>>heating oil.  I bought a year 2000 Golf TDI which had 225,000 km on it 
>>>with petroleum. Last summer I ran it on blends from B05 to B75 and over 
>>>the winter with B20 and this year since May it has been running B100. 
>>>Ive done over 10,000 km so far.  So how long does it take for the filter 
>>>clogging to happen?  I have a spare filter and tools with me all the 
>>>time but so far it just keeps running and running...when it does happen 
>>>does it happen just once? Is it possible that the petro in my area is 
>>>cleaner and there was no deposits during the first 225,000 km?
>>>
>>>I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend. I don't 
>>>believe it will ever happen to me. Now that I have written this I know 
>>>it will clog the next time I drive. I just wanted to get it over with.
>>>
>>>Cheers
>>>Joe
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
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Re: [Biofuel] Question on clogged filters

[Joe Street]

Hey Todd;

I know we are not supposed to store fuel for long periods but I do have 
some samples that I have kept around for over a year.  Although these 
were well reacted and crystal clear ( I check with a laser to guage 
this) after a long time I do get some extremely fine light coloured 
sediment. I assume this is stearins but I suppose it could be a result 
of some oxidation or something else that happens over time and exposure 
to air (closed bottle though) I also notice that in a flexible plastic 
cubie which is sealed, over a relatively short time (months) there is a 
volume reduction that takes place as I can see a deformation of the 
container which indicates a slight vacuum inside.  I assume this is due 
to oxygen reacting with the fuel? Is this a good assumption? Is the 
sediment I talked about the source of the filter clogging in bulk storage?

Joe

Appal Energy wrote:

>>I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend.
> 
> 
> Not. It's a reality. More predominant in bulk fuel storage. Automobiles can 
> generally get away with regular maintenace intervals as the fuel is 
> constantly being sloshed and jostled, not allowing the gringe to aggregate in 
> abundance.
> 
> Todd Swearingen 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Street wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hi all;
>>
>>I keep hearing about the cleansing effect of BD and how it clogs fuel 
>>filters.  Tom even mentioned it in his post about sharing biodiesel as 
>>heating oil.  I bought a year 2000 Golf TDI which had 225,000 km on it 
>>with petroleum. Last summer I ran it on blends from B05 to B75 and over 
>>the winter with B20 and this year since May it has been running B100. 
>>Ive done over 10,000 km so far.  So how long does it take for the filter 
>>clogging to happen?  I have a spare filter and tools with me all the 
>>time but so far it just keeps running and running...when it does happen 
>>does it happen just once? Is it possible that the petro in my area is 
>>cleaner and there was no deposits during the first 225,000 km?
>>
>>I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend. I don't 
>>believe it will ever happen to me. Now that I have written this I know 
>>it will clog the next time I drive. I just wanted to get it over with.
>>
>>Cheers
>>Joe
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [Biofuel] Question on clogged filters

[Appal Energy]

>I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend.

Not. It's a reality. More predominant in bulk fuel storage. Automobiles can 
generally get away with regular maintenace intervals as the fuel is constantly 
being sloshed and jostled, not allowing the gringe to aggregate in abundance.

Todd Swearingen 



Joe Street wrote:

>Hi all;
>
>I keep hearing about the cleansing effect of BD and how it clogs fuel 
>filters.  Tom even mentioned it in his post about sharing biodiesel as 
>heating oil.  I bought a year 2000 Golf TDI which had 225,000 km on it 
>with petroleum. Last summer I ran it on blends from B05 to B75 and over 
>the winter with B20 and this year since May it has been running B100. 
>Ive done over 10,000 km so far.  So how long does it take for the filter 
>clogging to happen?  I have a spare filter and tools with me all the 
>time but so far it just keeps running and running...when it does happen 
>does it happen just once? Is it possible that the petro in my area is 
>cleaner and there was no deposits during the first 225,000 km?
>
>I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend. I don't 
>believe it will ever happen to me. Now that I have written this I know 
>it will clog the next time I drive. I just wanted to get it over with.
>
>Cheers
>Joe
>
>
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>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Question on clogged filters

[thor]

		Well, it could be just a well maintained car.2000 Dodge Ram 285,000 on it and fuel system was flushed every 15Knice and clean, cant wait to feed it peanuts...we have a problem with fungus in fuel here
		

From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 10:12 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] Question on clogged filters
		
		Hi all;I keep hearing about the cleansing effect of BD and how it clogs fuel filters. Tom even mentioned it in his post about sharing biodiesel as heating oil. I bought a year 2000 Golf TDI which had 225,000 km on it with petroleum. Last summer I ran it on blends from B05 to B75 and over the winter with B20 and this year since May it has been running B100. Ive done over 10,000 km so far. So how long does it take for the filter clogging to happen? I have a spare filter and tools with me all the time but so far it just keeps running and running...when it does happen does it happen just once? Is it possible that the petro in my area is cleaner and there was no deposits during the first 225,000 km?I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend. I don't believe it will ever happen to me. Now that I have written this I know it will clog the next time I drive. I just wanted to get it over with.CheersJoe___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] Question on clogged filters

[JJJN]

Mine clogged and shut me down in less than 50 miles.  You may have a 
gotten lucky so far or your filter may be breached and it is allowing it 
through? small chance but why not just change it and be happy.

Jim

Joe Street wrote:

>Hi all;
>
>I keep hearing about the cleansing effect of BD and how it clogs fuel 
>filters.  Tom even mentioned it in his post about sharing biodiesel as 
>heating oil.  I bought a year 2000 Golf TDI which had 225,000 km on it 
>with petroleum. Last summer I ran it on blends from B05 to B75 and over 
>the winter with B20 and this year since May it has been running B100. 
>Ive done over 10,000 km so far.  So how long does it take for the filter 
>clogging to happen?  I have a spare filter and tools with me all the 
>time but so far it just keeps running and running...when it does happen 
>does it happen just once? Is it possible that the petro in my area is 
>cleaner and there was no deposits during the first 225,000 km?
>
>I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend. I don't 
>believe it will ever happen to me. Now that I have written this I know 
>it will clog the next time I drive. I just wanted to get it over with.
>
>Cheers
>Joe
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Question on clogged filters

[Zeke Yewdall]

Hey, maybe you're just lucky.  Mine clogged within 500 miles of switching to biodiesel, and the clogging was pretty sudden -- within 15 miles it pretty much stopped.  But then again, mine was also a 20 year old truck, which had just sat for about 5 years since it had last run -- so that tank had tome opportunity to rust a bit, and the clogging in the filter was mostly rust particles...  perhaps the clogging stories come from people running biodiesel in older cars, which have had alot more time to build up dirt from the diesel, and also older cars tend to have metal fuel tanks, whereas I believe the TDI's have a plastic tank that won't rust.
Now, I do know someone who recently clogged the filter on her TDI, but she was also using unwashed biodiesel known to have unreacted oil in it tooOn 7/26/06, 
Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
No I bought it privately and talked to the original single owner, haveall the service records too.  Maybe we just have good filters in ourservice stations?/ dunno.  Maybe it just takes more time??Joe
ROY Washbish wrote:> Hey Joe> Do ya think it was run on BD prior to> you getting it?> Maybe it's already clean.> Roy>> */Joe Street <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:>> Hi all;>> I keep hearing about the cleansing effect of BD and how it clogs fuel> filters. Tom even mentioned it in his post about sharing biodiesel as
> heating oil. I bought a year 2000 Golf TDI which had 225,000 km on it> with petroleum. Last summer I ran it on blends from B05 to B75 and over> the winter with B20 and this year since May it has been running B100.
> Ive done over 10,000 km so far. So how long does it take for the filter> clogging to happen? I have a spare filter and tools with me all the> time but so far it just keeps running and running...when it does happen
> does it happen just once? Is it possible that the petro in my area is> cleaner and there was no deposits during the first 225,000 km?>> I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend. I don't
> believe it will ever happen to me. Now that I have written this I know> it will clog the next time I drive. I just wanted to get it over with.>> Cheers> Joe>
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Re: [Biofuel] Question on clogged filters

[Joe Street]

No I bought it privately and talked to the original single owner, have 
all the service records too.  Maybe we just have good filters in our 
service stations?/ dunno.  Maybe it just takes more time??

Joe

ROY Washbish wrote:

> Hey Joe
> Do ya think it was run on BD prior to
> you getting it?
> Maybe it's already clean.
> Roy
> 
> */Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> Hi all;
> 
> I keep hearing about the cleansing effect of BD and how it clogs fuel
> filters. Tom even mentioned it in his post about sharing biodiesel as
> heating oil. I bought a year 2000 Golf TDI which had 225,000 km on it
> with petroleum. Last summer I ran it on blends from B05 to B75 and over
> the winter with B20 and this year since May it has been running B100.
> Ive done over 10,000 km so far. So how long does it take for the filter
> clogging to happen? I have a spare filter and tools with me all the
> time but so far it just keeps running and running...when it does happen
> does it happen just once? Is it possible that the petro in my area is
> cleaner and there was no deposits during the first 225,000 km?
> 
> I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend. I don't
> believe it will ever happen to me. Now that I have written this I know
> it will clog the next time I drive. I just wanted to get it over with.
> 
> Cheers
> Joe
> 
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Question on clogged filters

[ROY Washbish]

Hey Joe  Do ya think it was run on BD prior to  you getting it?  Maybe it's already clean.  RoyJoe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Hi all;I keep hearing about the cleansing effect of BD and how it clogs fuel filters. Tom even mentioned it in his post about sharing biodiesel as heating oil. I bought a year 2000 Golf TDI which had 225,000 km on it with petroleum. Last summer I ran it on blends from B05 to B75 and over the winter with B20 and this year since May it has been running B100. Ive done over 10,000 km so far. So how long does it take for the filter clogging to happen? I have a spare filter and tools with me all the time but so far it just keeps running and running...when it does happen does it happen just once? Is it possible that
 the petro in my area is cleaner and there was no deposits during the first 225,000 km?I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend. I don't believe it will ever happen to me. Now that I have written this I know it will clog the next time I drive. I just wanted to get it over with.CheersJoe___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ 
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Re: [Biofuel] Question on clogged filters

[Thomas Kelly]

Joe,
 I have a similar story w. the diesel car I bought (216,000 
mi/348,000Km). I have spare fuel filters in the trunk along w the necessary 
tools. I have changed the filters, but more as a matter of routine 
maintenance; never had a clogged filter. I run my car on B-100  and drop to 
B-70 in the winter.
 The fuel filter in my heating system is another story. After 2 months w 
B-30 in my tank I changed the in-line filter. It was disgusting. Each time I 
changed it after that it got better.
 I would still recommend spare filters and the tools required to change 
them in the trunk of cars running BD.
I would recommend spare filters and nozzles (+ know how to change them) for 
BD in heating systems.
  Check the trunk for those filters and tools.
Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 1:07 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Question on clogged filters


> Hi all;
>
> I keep hearing about the cleansing effect of BD and how it clogs fuel
> filters.  Tom even mentioned it in his post about sharing biodiesel as
> heating oil.  I bought a year 2000 Golf TDI which had 225,000 km on it
> with petroleum. Last summer I ran it on blends from B05 to B75 and over
> the winter with B20 and this year since May it has been running B100.
> Ive done over 10,000 km so far.  So how long does it take for the filter
> clogging to happen?  I have a spare filter and tools with me all the
> time but so far it just keeps running and running...when it does happen
> does it happen just once? Is it possible that the petro in my area is
> cleaner and there was no deposits during the first 225,000 km?
>
> I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend. I don't
> believe it will ever happen to me. Now that I have written this I know
> it will clog the next time I drive. I just wanted to get it over with.
>
> Cheers
> Joe
>
>
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[Biofuel] Question on clogged filters

[Joe Street]

Hi all;

I keep hearing about the cleansing effect of BD and how it clogs fuel 
filters.  Tom even mentioned it in his post about sharing biodiesel as 
heating oil.  I bought a year 2000 Golf TDI which had 225,000 km on it 
with petroleum. Last summer I ran it on blends from B05 to B75 and over 
the winter with B20 and this year since May it has been running B100. 
Ive done over 10,000 km so far.  So how long does it take for the filter 
clogging to happen?  I have a spare filter and tools with me all the 
time but so far it just keeps running and running...when it does happen 
does it happen just once? Is it possible that the petro in my area is 
cleaner and there was no deposits during the first 225,000 km?

I think the filter clogging story is just an urban legend. I don't 
believe it will ever happen to me. Now that I have written this I know 
it will clog the next time I drive. I just wanted to get it over with.

Cheers
Joe


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[Biofuel] Question about using WVO in Ethanol still

[Dwight HoganCamp]

I am planning to build a still to to fuel my gas powered vehicles.

Some of the material I have been reading talks about salvaging the 
burner from an old gas water heater to use gas as
a heat source for a still.

Is it possible to salvage the burner from an oil hot water heater, and 
fuel it with WVO?  What pitfalls would I encounter
with this approach?

Thanks in advance for any ideas you may have.

Dwight




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Re: [Biofuel] question regarding versus unreacted oil

[Keith Addison]

Hello jdnt

>how do you tell the difference between soap and unreacted oil.. we 
>are using used beef tallow for our base stock and having problems 
>with a third layer forming in our settling tank...we are using the 
>two stage base base method any help would be great.

What's the titration of the used beef tallow?

What temperature did you process it at, and what is the temperature 
it settles at?

Best

Keith


>thanks,
>jdnt


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[Biofuel] question regarding versus unreacted oil

[Casetractor700]

how do you tell the difference between soap and unreacted oil.. we are 
using used beef tallow for our base stock and having problems with a third layer 
forming in our settling tank...we are using the two stage base base method any 
help would be great.   
 
 
thanks,
jdnt
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[Biofuel] question on glycerin

[Bioclaire Nederland]

 

  Hi all,
  For some stupid reason I lost a lot of 
  e-mail.
  I had somewhere in my postbox usefull information 
  about burning glycerin. Not with logs or so, but liquid.
  Can somebody tell me where to find this 
  information again on the list or so ?
   
  Thanks,
  Pieter
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Re: [Biofuel] Question from a beginner

[Keith Addison]

>Mr. Addison,
>
>You are quite beside youself here as of late.

Aarghh!!! TWO of me? You think that's a Good Thing?? Anyway I'm glad 
you like us, but it's hell trying to bow twice at the same time, it 
gave me a crick in the neck, or was it two cricks in the necks? :-/

>I like it!  As always,
>keep up the good work.

Thankyou Ken, we'll try.

Best

Keiths


>On 11/12/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi Ken
> >
> > >I take offense to that.  I use soap too.  Just not very often.
> >
> > You do? You could go cold turkey on the soap. I went through the
> > bi-monthly ordeal a few weeks ago (aarghh!) and I didn't use any
> > soap. I used saponified biodiesel by-product instead, liquid cleaner,
> > it cleans like all hell but it's VERY mild on the skin. Nice shower,
> > not bad at all. But I wouldn't call it soap. Not quite sure what to
> > call it.
> >
> > You have to get the lye quantity right, the online recipes I've seen
> > are too vague and it doesn't work that way with acid-base anyway, but
> > when you do get it right it's great stuff. The, uh, Joe Street Honda
> > Civic backseat factor might need a little attention for toiletries
> > applications. (Don't watch this space.)
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> > >On 11/11/05, Michael Luich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > might be nice for the ladies
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 11/11/05, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > Hey, he just make some nice coconut soap it sounds like...
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11/11/05, Joe Street < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > ROFLMAO.  This is a joke right?  Please?
> > > > > > OK throw out whatever 'instuctions' you had and follow these
> > > > > > instructions instead:
> > > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodnew
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Joe
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ramon wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Hi folks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Here is a note I got from someone who was trying to make his first
> > > > > > >batch.  Any comments / suggestions will be most welcome.
> > > > > > >Thanks!
> > > > > > >Ramon
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Hello , Nice to see the mail. The journey to bio fuels
> > > > > > >   has just started ...
> > > > > > >Well I have tried the procedure given
> > > > > > >I took 100 ml of coconut oil and when I have added
> > > > > > >NaoH + H2O solution saponification step , What I have
> > > > > > >obtained is an thick  paste I could not decant the
> > > > > > >layer so I went to the next step adding Lime . After
> > > > > > >adding soda lime and little NaoH and heating the soda
> > > > > > >lime has competely absorbed the oil  and i could only
> > > > > > >get little water and nothing more , the soda lime got
> > > > > > >very hard and became some what like a hard soap .
> > > > > > >I have also  used vaccum  .
> > > > > > >Could some one give me details how to proceed ?
> > > > > > >Thanks


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Re: [Biofuel] Question from a beginner

[Ken Dunn]

Mr. Addison,

You are quite beside youself here as of late.  I like it!  As always,
keep up the good work.

On 11/12/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Ken
>
> >I take offense to that.  I use soap too.  Just not very often.
>
> You do? You could go cold turkey on the soap. I went through the
> bi-monthly ordeal a few weeks ago (aarghh!) and I didn't use any
> soap. I used saponified biodiesel by-product instead, liquid cleaner,
> it cleans like all hell but it's VERY mild on the skin. Nice shower,
> not bad at all. But I wouldn't call it soap. Not quite sure what to
> call it.
>
> You have to get the lye quantity right, the online recipes I've seen
> are too vague and it doesn't work that way with acid-base anyway, but
> when you do get it right it's great stuff. The, uh, Joe Street Honda
> Civic backseat factor might need a little attention for toiletries
> applications. (Don't watch this space.)
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
> >On 11/11/05, Michael Luich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > might be nice for the ladies
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11/11/05, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Hey, he just make some nice coconut soap it sounds like...
> > > >
> > > > On 11/11/05, Joe Street < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > ROFLMAO.  This is a joke right?  Please?
> > > > > OK throw out whatever 'instuctions' you had and follow these
> > > > > instructions instead:
> > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodnew
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe
> > > > >
> > > > > Ramon wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Hi folks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Here is a note I got from someone who was trying to make his first
> > > > > >batch.  Any comments / suggestions will be most welcome.
> > > > > >Thanks!
> > > > > >Ramon
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Hello , Nice to see the mail. The journey to bio fuels
> > > > > >   has just started ...
> > > > > >Well I have tried the procedure given
> > > > > >I took 100 ml of coconut oil and when I have added
> > > > > >NaoH + H2O solution saponification step , What I have
> > > > > >obtained is an thick  paste I could not decant the
> > > > > >layer so I went to the next step adding Lime . After
> > > > > >adding soda lime and little NaoH and heating the soda
> > > > > >lime has competely absorbed the oil  and i could only
> > > > > >get little water and nothing more , the soda lime got
> > > > > >very hard and became some what like a hard soap .
> > > > > >I have also  used vaccum  .
> > > > > >Could some one give me details how to proceed ?
> > > > > >Thanks
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Question from a beginner

[Keith Addison]

Hi Ken

>I take offense to that.  I use soap too.  Just not very often.

You do? You could go cold turkey on the soap. I went through the 
bi-monthly ordeal a few weeks ago (aarghh!) and I didn't use any 
soap. I used saponified biodiesel by-product instead, liquid cleaner, 
it cleans like all hell but it's VERY mild on the skin. Nice shower, 
not bad at all. But I wouldn't call it soap. Not quite sure what to 
call it.

You have to get the lye quantity right, the online recipes I've seen 
are too vague and it doesn't work that way with acid-base anyway, but 
when you do get it right it's great stuff. The, uh, Joe Street Honda 
Civic backseat factor might need a little attention for toiletries 
applications. (Don't watch this space.)

Best

Keith


>On 11/11/05, Michael Luich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > might be nice for the ladies
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/11/05, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hey, he just make some nice coconut soap it sounds like...
> > >
> > > On 11/11/05, Joe Street < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > ROFLMAO.  This is a joke right?  Please?
> > > > OK throw out whatever 'instuctions' you had and follow these
> > > > instructions instead:
> > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodnew
> > > >
> > > > Joe
> > > >
> > > > Ramon wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Hi folks,
> > > > >
> > > > >Here is a note I got from someone who was trying to make his first
> > > > >batch.  Any comments / suggestions will be most welcome.
> > > > >Thanks!
> > > > >Ramon
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Hello , Nice to see the mail. The journey to bio fuels
> > > > >   has just started ...
> > > > >Well I have tried the procedure given
> > > > >I took 100 ml of coconut oil and when I have added
> > > > >NaoH + H2O solution saponification step , What I have
> > > > >obtained is an thick  paste I could not decant the
> > > > >layer so I went to the next step adding Lime . After
> > > > >adding soda lime and little NaoH and heating the soda
> > > > >lime has competely absorbed the oil  and i could only
> > > > >get little water and nothing more , the soda lime got
> > > > >very hard and became some what like a hard soap .
> > > > >I have also  used vaccum  .
> > > > >Could some one give me details how to proceed ?
> > > > >Thanks


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Re: [Biofuel] Question from a beginner

[Ken Dunn]

I take offense to that.  I use soap too.  Just not very often.

On 11/11/05, Michael Luich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> might be nice for the ladies
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On 11/11/05, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hey, he just make some nice coconut soap it sounds like...
> >
> > On 11/11/05, Joe Street < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > ROFLMAO.  This is a joke right?  Please?
> > > OK throw out whatever 'instuctions' you had and follow these
> > > instructions instead:
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodnew
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > > Ramon wrote:
> > >
> > > >Hi folks,
> > > >
> > > >Here is a note I got from someone who was trying to make his first
> > > >batch.  Any comments / suggestions will be most welcome.
> > > >Thanks!
> > > >Ramon
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Hello , Nice to see the mail. The journey to bio fuels
> > > >   has just started ...
> > > >Well I have tried the procedure given
> > > >I took 100 ml of coconut oil and when I have added
> > > >NaoH + H2O solution saponification step , What I have
> > > >obtained is an thick  paste I could not decant the
> > > >layer so I went to the next step adding Lime . After
> > > >adding soda lime and little NaoH and heating the soda
> > > >lime has competely absorbed the oil  and i could only
> > > >get little water and nothing more , the soda lime got
> > > >very hard and became some what like a hard soap .
> > > >I have also  used vaccum  .
> > > >Could some one give me details how to proceed ?
> > > >Thanks
> > > >
> > > >___
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> messages):
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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Re: [Biofuel] Question from a beginner

[Michael Luich]

 
Mike 
On 11/11/05, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey, he just make some nice coconut soap it sounds like...On 11/11/05, Joe Street <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> ROFLMAO.  This is a joke right?  Please?> OK throw out whatever 'instuctions' you had and follow these> instructions instead:> 
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodnew>> Joe>> Ramon wrote:>> >Hi folks,> >> >Here is a note I got from someone who was trying to make his first
> >batch.  Any comments / suggestions will be most welcome.> >Thanks!> >Ramon> >> >> >Hello , Nice to see the mail. The journey to bio fuels> >   has just started ...
> >Well I have tried the procedure given> >I took 100 ml of coconut oil and when I have added> >NaoH + H2O solution saponification step , What I have> >obtained is an thick  paste I could not decant the
> >layer so I went to the next step adding Lime . After> >adding soda lime and little NaoH and heating the soda> >lime has competely absorbed the oil  and i could only> >get little water and nothing more , the soda lime got
> >very hard and became some what like a hard soap .> >I have also  used vaccum  .> >Could some one give me details how to proceed ?> >Thanks> >> >___
> >Biofuel mailing list> >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >
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Re: [Biofuel] Question from a beginner

[Zeke Yewdall]

Hey, he just make some nice coconut soap it sounds like...

On 11/11/05, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ROFLMAO.  This is a joke right?  Please?
> OK throw out whatever 'instuctions' you had and follow these
> instructions instead:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodnew
>
> Joe
>
> Ramon wrote:
>
> >Hi folks,
> >
> >Here is a note I got from someone who was trying to make his first
> >batch.  Any comments / suggestions will be most welcome.
> >Thanks!
> >Ramon
> >
> >
> >Hello , Nice to see the mail. The journey to bio fuels
> >   has just started ...
> >Well I have tried the procedure given
> >I took 100 ml of coconut oil and when I have added
> >NaoH + H2O solution saponification step , What I have
> >obtained is an thick  paste I could not decant the
> >layer so I went to the next step adding Lime . After
> >adding soda lime and little NaoH and heating the soda
> >lime has competely absorbed the oil  and i could only
> >get little water and nothing more , the soda lime got
> >very hard and became some what like a hard soap .
> >I have also  used vaccum  .
> >Could some one give me details how to proceed ?
> >Thanks
> >
> >___
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> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Question from a beginner

[Joe Street]

ROFLMAO.  This is a joke right?  Please? 
OK throw out whatever 'instuctions' you had and follow these 
instructions instead:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodnew

Joe

Ramon wrote:

>Hi folks,
>
>Here is a note I got from someone who was trying to make his first
>batch.  Any comments / suggestions will be most welcome.
>Thanks!
>Ramon
>
>
>Hello , Nice to see the mail. The journey to bio fuels
>   has just started ...
>Well I have tried the procedure given
>I took 100 ml of coconut oil and when I have added
>NaoH + H2O solution saponification step , What I have
>obtained is an thick  paste I could not decant the
>layer so I went to the next step adding Lime . After
>adding soda lime and little NaoH and heating the soda
>lime has competely absorbed the oil  and i could only
>get little water and nothing more , the soda lime got
>very hard and became some what like a hard soap .
>I have also  used vaccum  .
>Could some one give me details how to proceed ?
>Thanks
>
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>
>  
>


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[Biofuel] Question from a beginner

[Ramon]

Hi folks,

Here is a note I got from someone who was trying to make his first
batch.  Any comments / suggestions will be most welcome.
Thanks!
Ramon


Hello , Nice to see the mail. The journey to bio fuels
   has just started ...
Well I have tried the procedure given
I took 100 ml of coconut oil and when I have added
NaoH + H2O solution saponification step , What I have
obtained is an thick  paste I could not decant the
layer so I went to the next step adding Lime . After
adding soda lime and little NaoH and heating the soda
lime has competely absorbed the oil  and i could only
get little water and nothing more , the soda lime got
very hard and became some what like a hard soap .
I have also  used vaccum  .
Could some one give me details how to proceed ?
Thanks

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[Biofuel] Question about testing Biodiesel for glycerin

[JJJN]

Help,
I searched the archives but came up short on this specific question.

If you remember that post about the bad smelling stuff well I processed 
2 liters and it washed out OK, still smells, and has a darker color than 
anything I made so far. I processed it through a 24 micron paper - still 
dark.  When mixed with water it separates in about 10 min with a sharp 
line - water and bio. The water is just a bit hazy but not bad.

I want to take a liter and reprocess to see if it is glycerin causing 
the dark color.  The web site said treat it like virgin oil.

So, I titrate the biodiesel, and reprocess just like it was virgin oil 
not bio - right?

This must sound incredibly stupid to the pros but  just want to be sure 
before I proceed.

Thanks,

Jim

Wisdom to all


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Re: [Biofuel] Question about E85

[Pannirselvam P.V]

   Helow  angela , Brasil government and petroleium
compny  is using  etanol  in gasoline  depending on
the availabilty  for tha car made for gasoline upto 18 
porcent of  95 porcent  bioethanol made from sugar cane 
for the tropical climate .You need to  bother about  room
temperature  as this may lead to starting problem of the car.
Brazilian car  have been improved to over come this problems.
Plenty of information available in JTF biofuel web page and  also
in our list.

 Yours truely
Pannirselvam  P V P





























































































































































































































Y
On 9/15/05, Angela Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:





Does anyone know if anything has to be done to the fuel system
if you're planning on running E-85 in your vehicle?  I have heard
conflicting stories.  I have a 2001 Chevy Impala that I would fill
up with E85.  I've been using 10% Ethanol with no problems.
 
Any information would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you!
 
Angela Cook

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--  Pagandai V PannirselvamUniversidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRNDepartamento de Engenharia Química - DEQCentro de Tecnologia - CTPrograma de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ
Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPECAv. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus UniversitárioCEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - BrasilResidence :Av  Odilon gome de lima, 2951,   Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102
   Capim  MacioEP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - BrasilTelefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal21032171557Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557
Cellular  84  88145083
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Re: [Biofuel] Question about E85

[kent snyder]

you can check to see if your car will run e85 @ wwwe85fuel.comAngela Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Does anyone know if anything has to be done to the fuel system if you're planning on running E-85 in your vehicle?  I have heard conflicting stories.  I have a 2001 Chevy Impala that I would fill up with E85.  I've been using 10% Ethanol with no problems.
 
Any information would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you!
 
Angela Cook
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Re: [Biofuel] Question about E85

[Jan Warnqvist]

Angela,
the fuel system of your car will most likely 
not tolerate more than 30% E85 in gasoline. The "black box" has to be adjusted 
to increase the highest possible fuel amount to be injected.
I think that the easiest way is to get a car 
with a carburettor, and enlarge the main injector to  a proper size, which 
means making it 30-40% wider. But that car will not be able to run on pure 
gasoline again, unless you switch back to the original main 
injector.
Be aware that some fuel pums disapprove of 
ethanol showing this by stop working.
Best of luck to you
Jan

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Angela 
  Cook 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:10 
  PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Question about 
  E85
  
  
  Does anyone know if anything has to be done to the fuel system if you're 
  planning on running E-85 in your vehicle?  I have heard conflicting 
  stories.  I have a 2001 Chevy Impala that I would fill up with E85.  
  I've been using 10% Ethanol with no problems.
   
  Any information would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you!
   
  Angela Cook
  
  
  

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[Biofuel] Question about E85

[Angela Cook]

Does anyone know if anything has to be done to the fuel system if you're planning on running E-85 in your vehicle?  I have heard conflicting stories.  I have a 2001 Chevy Impala that I would fill up with E85.  I've been using 10% Ethanol with no problems.
 
Any information would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you!
 
Angela Cook
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[Biofuel] Question about Alcohol and Tritation

[Ryan Prince]

I only have 91% isopropyl alcohol for titration and we ended up using 6X the amount of alcohol to disove the used vegetable oil (we used 60 ml to 1 ml of oil).  The mixture was cloudy up the point of adding that much alcohol.  We did heat the mixture to help disolve the oil.  When starting there was a glob of oil (?) on the bottom of the mixture.  Is it possible to use 91% isopropyl alcohol for tritation?  Thanks for any help, Chris.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Question on Chevy S10´s

[Alan Petrillo]

Ray J wrote:

>2000 s-10  had a diesel engine in them??? 
>  
>

Perhaps non-US models.  I know it is possible to get a Ford Ranger with 
a diesel engine, but not in the US.  If I find one on the grey market 
and I can afford it then I'll buy it.  There are all kinds of vehicles 
all over the world available with diesel engines that are not in the US. 

> They had a 2.2l 4 cylinder 2.8l 6 cylinder and a 4.3l gas engine in 
>them... i think u can run E85 hi ethanol gass in them but as far as i no 
>chevy has not made a diesel s10 for many years .. they offered a 2.2l 
>diesel in 1983-1986..
>  
>

I have a 1985.  Great little truck, but woefully underpowered.  The 
engine is the same Isuzu C223 as in the diesel P'up of the same year.  
Mine is currently in the shop getting its injection pump rebuilt.  It's 
just shy of 100,000 miles and the injection pump started to leak.  I'm 
not sure it's biofuel related, but I have been running it on B100 for 
the past year or so.  Hopefully the seals will be updated to compounds 
that will stand up to B100. 

A vegoil conversion is in the offing as soon as I can figure out the 
engineering to put in a second tank that will not eat up my bed space. 


AP


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[Biofuel] Question for the ethanol veterans

[Myk Hill]

If you convert an automobile to run straight ethanol, and you find yourself in a position that your in where there is no ethanol and must use gasoline, will this mess up your ethanol kit in any way ?
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Re: [Biofuel] Question on Chevy S10´s

[Ray J]

2000 s-10  had a diesel engine in them??? 
 They had a 2.2l 4 cylinder 2.8l 6 cylinder and a 4.3l gas engine in 
them... i think u can run E85 hi ethanol gass in them but as far as i no 
chevy has not made a diesel s10 for many years .. they offered a 2.2l 
diesel in 1983-1986..

Ray J


Tom Irwin wrote:

> Hi All,
>  
> I was out on Friday looking at pick ups. I saw an 2000 S10 with a 2.8 
> liter engine. It had about 200,000 km on it. Any problems running BioD 
> in this vehicle? I suspect I´ll have to get the filters changed quite 
> often early on as the BioD will dissolve all the fossil crud. I didn´t 
> have a lot of time to see if it was a computerized injection system. 
> Any help would be appreciated.
>  
> Tom Irwin 
>
>
>
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>  
>


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[Biofuel] Question on Chevy S10´s

[Tom Irwin]

Hi All,
 
I was out on Friday looking at pick ups. I saw an 2000 S10 with a 2.8 liter engine. It had about 200,000 km on it. Any problems running BioD in this vehicle? I suspect I´ll have to get the filters changed quite often early on as the BioD will dissolve all the fossil crud. I didn´t have a lot of time to see if it was a computerized injection system. Any help would be appreciated.
 
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[Biofuel] Question

[Carlos David Monsalve]

HI, 
I want to know if there is a better way to recover the metanol from the Glicerine than the two show on the web page ( large quantities).
 
Thank you
Carlos Monsalve
MSN Amor Busca tu ½ naranja 


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[Biofuel] Question on methoxide

[Pieter Koole]

Hi friends,
For some reason or another I made some horrible BD and started to doubt
about what I am doing.
So I decided to make a range of 12 bottles of sodiummethoxide, varying from
3½ to 9 grams of lye per liter.
After mixing each liter of methanol with exactly the amount of lye, I found
out that the first liter was almost still one liter, and the last liter was
app. 10% less, with every next bottle a little less than the one before.
If it would be the evaporation, every bottle would lose the same amount, so
it must have to do something with the reaction between methanol and lye.
Can anyone give me the answer on the question what is the chemical reaction
?
Or is there something else happening which I don't know ?

The next question is of course, do I need 200 ml of the mixture (so that
would be more concentrated than 200 ml methanol + for example 4 grams of
lye) ?

Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole




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RE: [Biofuel] Question on sources of supplies

[Mike Morrill]

Where are you located?  I have some sources along the west coast of the
US.

-Original Message-
From: Doug Memering [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:31 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Question on sources of supplies

Hello,
I have been making small batches of biodiesel and feel that I am ready
to
scale up.  However I have encountered a fairly major stumbling block in
finding a source for the methanol and the NaOH.  I have tried local
chemical
supply companies and gotten the response that they can only sell to
licensed
companies.  I have looked at the page on journeytofoerver that talks
about
where to purchase the supplies and found only items related to methanol.
I
did not see anything about the NaOH.  Did I miss it somewhere?

Thanks for you help
Doug



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Re: [Biofuel] Question on sources of supplies

[Keith Addison]

Hello Doug


Hello,
I have been making small batches of biodiesel and feel that I am ready to
scale up.  However I have encountered a fairly major stumbling block in
finding a source for the methanol and the NaOH.  I have tried local chemical
supply companies and gotten the response that they can only sell to licensed
companies.  I have looked at the page on journeytofoerver that talks about
where to purchase the supplies and found only items related to methanol.  I
did not see anything about the NaOH.  Did I miss it somewhere?


It's a worldwide website, every country is different, more specific 
information would be excessive and would be a nightmare to maintain. 
You can use Red Devil lye from hardware stores, and keep trying the 
chemical supply companies, lots of US list members get chemicals from 
these companies without themselves being licensed companies. After 
all it's only drain-cleaner, very common chemical. They're all common 
chemicals.


Good luck!

Best wishes

Keith



Thanks for you help
Doug



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Re: [Biofuel] Question on sources of supplies

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,
Those of us who make soap know where to get it.  Depending on how
much you want, either join a soap list and find someone to share the 50
lb bag with or buy one for yourself.

http://www.boyercorporation.com/index.html
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:30 PM 7/19/2005, you wrote:
Hello,
I have been making small batches of biodiesel and feel that I am ready
to
scale up.  However I have encountered a fairly major stumbling block
in
finding a source for the methanol and the NaOH.  I have tried local
chemical
supply companies and gotten the response that they can only sell to
licensed
companies.  I have looked at the page on journeytofoerver that talks
about
where to purchase the supplies and found only items related to
methanol.  I
did not see anything about the NaOH.  Did I miss it
somewhere?
Thanks for you help
Doug


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[Biofuel] Question on sources of supplies

[Doug Memering]

Hello,
I have been making small batches of biodiesel and feel that I am ready to
scale up.  However I have encountered a fairly major stumbling block in
finding a source for the methanol and the NaOH.  I have tried local chemical
supply companies and gotten the response that they can only sell to licensed
companies.  I have looked at the page on journeytofoerver that talks about
where to purchase the supplies and found only items related to methanol.  I
did not see anything about the NaOH.  Did I miss it somewhere?

Thanks for you help
Doug



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[Biofuel] -= question: filter for SVO conversion? =-

[Mel Purdy]

Hello-

I'm trying to get all my ducks in a row so I can convert my 95 Chevy
to SVO in the coming month.

What type and micron rating would you all recommend for the filter? 
And where's the best place to purchase it?

I would like something good quality...  something that my truck will like.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

best-
Mel

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[Biofuel] Question

[Diane Blakeslee]

 How is kerosene and home heating fuel differ 
from Diesel fuel at the pumps? Is it the octane? Just asking because other 
people have asked me. I know diesel fuel is taxed and home heating oil is not, 
therefore it is illegal to use. Thanks for any answers. 
Don
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Re: [Biofuel] question on aquaculture

[r]

Check out http://www.dabney.com/ecogenics/intro.html

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hello Kim,

Try looking at this site. 
http://www.dec.ctu.edu.vn/cdrom/cd2/projects/univ_auburn/organic.html

It might be useful,

Best Wishes,
Tim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Garth & Kim
Travis
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 5:07 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] question on aquaculture


Greetings,

While I am well aware that I am not the greatest at searching on the 
internet, I am fed up after two days of trying to find the information that 
was there a year ago.  Yes, I did down load it, but it went the way of much 
of my data with computer crashes.  I hate to print everything out, but I 
guess I should have.


Anyway, I am looking for information on the manure/fish/plants type of 
aquaculture.  All I am finding is bought food/fish/plants kind.  What 
happened to the information on how much manure of what kind to use with 
which fish?  The last thing I need is anything else on the feed bill and I 
really would like to put my rabbit manure to good use.  [And not as pit 
pearls]


Can anyone help me, please?

Bright Blessings,
Kim

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RE: [Biofuel] question on aquaculture

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings Tim,
Thank you very much, it is a wonderful site.  Unfortunately they don't give 
the amounts of rabbit to use, but i think I can figure it out with some of 
the advise in this article.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:34 PM 6/8/2005, you wrote:

Hello Kim,

Try looking at this site. 
http://www.dec.ctu.edu.vn/cdrom/cd2/projects/univ_auburn/organic.html


It might be useful,

Best Wishes,
Tim




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RE: [Biofuel] question on aquaculture

[Tim Ferguson]

Hello Kim,

Try looking at this site. 
http://www.dec.ctu.edu.vn/cdrom/cd2/projects/univ_auburn/organic.html

It might be useful,

Best Wishes,
Tim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Garth & Kim
Travis
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 5:07 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] question on aquaculture


Greetings,

While I am well aware that I am not the greatest at searching on the 
internet, I am fed up after two days of trying to find the information that 
was there a year ago.  Yes, I did down load it, but it went the way of much 
of my data with computer crashes.  I hate to print everything out, but I 
guess I should have.

Anyway, I am looking for information on the manure/fish/plants type of 
aquaculture.  All I am finding is bought food/fish/plants kind.  What 
happened to the information on how much manure of what kind to use with 
which fish?  The last thing I need is anything else on the feed bill and I 
really would like to put my rabbit manure to good use.  [And not as pit 
pearls]

Can anyone help me, please?

Bright Blessings,
Kim

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RE: [Biofuel] question on aquaculture

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Thanks Craig,
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 05:37 AM 6/8/2005, you wrote:

Kim,

Here's a discussion about it that might get your search started again.

http://www.ibiblio.org/london/permaculture/mailarchives/allforums1/0038.html

Craig.




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RE: [Biofuel] question on aquaculture

[Craig Jamieson]

Kim,

Here's a discussion about it that might get your search started again.

http://www.ibiblio.org/london/permaculture/mailarchives/allforums1/0038.html

Craig.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Garth & Kim
Travis
Sent: 07 June 2005 22:07
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] question on aquaculture


Greetings,

While I am well aware that I am not the greatest at searching on the 
internet, I am fed up after two days of trying to find the information that 
was there a year ago.  Yes, I did down load it, but it went the way of much 
of my data with computer crashes.  I hate to print everything out, but I 
guess I should have.

Anyway, I am looking for information on the manure/fish/plants type of 
aquaculture.  All I am finding is bought food/fish/plants kind.  What 
happened to the information on how much manure of what kind to use with 
which fish?  The last thing I need is anything else on the feed bill and I 
really would like to put my rabbit manure to good use.  [And not as pit 
pearls]

Can anyone help me, please?

Bright Blessings,
Kim



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[Biofuel] question on aquaculture

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,

While I am well aware that I am not the greatest at searching on the 
internet, I am fed up after two days of trying to find the information that 
was there a year ago.  Yes, I did down load it, but it went the way of much 
of my data with computer crashes.  I hate to print everything out, but I 
guess I should have.


Anyway, I am looking for information on the manure/fish/plants type of 
aquaculture.  All I am finding is bought food/fish/plants kind.  What 
happened to the information on how much manure of what kind to use with 
which fish?  The last thing I need is anything else on the feed bill and I 
really would like to put my rabbit manure to good use.  [And not as pit 
pearls]


Can anyone help me, please?

Bright Blessings,
Kim



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Re: [Biofuel] Question about BD

[Manick Harris]

Hi all,
If there is free fatty acid dissolved as outcome of hydrolysis with c.soda how 
about treating/boiling  the biodiesel fraction with extra c.soda and then a 
calcium salt to convert into insoluble ppt. of (RCOO)2Ca. This could be sold as 
grease constituent. I think it will probably work if you could get the 
biodiesel fraction turbid with addition of c.soda solution. I agree there is no 
advantage driving my junky car with acidic fuel and ending up with corroded 
engine which wont start.

Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Howdy Bob

Thankyou!

>Howdy Kieth,
>
>one minor correction. The stoichiometry of the reaction is one 
>lipid molecule plus three molecules of methanol afford three fatty 
>acid methyl esters plus one glycerin molecule, not three as implied. 
>Glycerin has three connection points for the fatty acid chains.
>
>
> 1 triglyceride + 3 MeOH ---> 3 FAME + 1 glycerin

So:

>>>like a head with 3 legs.
>>
>>I think make it three heads with their arms linked.

No, only one head, and it stays there until it's completely legless.

So then you don't get any glycerine falling out as by-product until a 
mono-glyceride is converted to an alkyl ester.

Thanks Bob.

Regards

Keith


>
>Keith Addison wrote:
>>>Hello all,
>>>Maybe a silly question,
>>
>>
>>They say the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. Not 
>>sure about silly answers though ... But we aren't chemists and lots 
>>of other people also aren't chemists, so let's see what we can make 
>>of it and if it's silly maybe a kindly chemist will help us out.
>>
>>>but I cannot figure out how it works really.
>>>As far as I understand, veg.oil exists out of a glycerol + 3 fatty acids,
>>>like a head with 3 legs.
>>
>>
>>I think make it three heads with their arms linked.
>>
>>>During the BD proces, we break off the legs, using NaOH, and connect a
>>>methanol molecule on each leg.
>>
>>
>>They break off one by one: triglycerides become di-glycerides (two 
>>legs) plus an alkyl ester (one leg), one molecule of glycerin drops 
>>out. Then the di-glycerides become mono-glycerides (one leg) plus 
>>another alkyl ester and another molecule of glycerin drops out. The 
>>mono-glycerides then become alkyl esters and a third molecule of 
>>glycerin drops out.
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Bob Allen
>http://ozarker.org/bob
>
>"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
>from fooling ourselves" ó Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Question about BD

[Keith Addison]

Thankyou!


Howdy Kieth,

one minor correction.  The stoichiometry of the reaction is one 
lipid molecule plus three molecules of methanol afford three fatty 
acid methyl esters plus one glycerin molecule, not three as implied. 
Glycerin has three connection points for the fatty acid chains.



1 triglyceride +  3 MeOH   --->  3 FAME + 1 glycerin


So:


like a head with 3 legs.


I think make it three heads with their arms linked.


No, only one head, and it stays there until it's completely legless.

So then you don't get any glycerine falling out as by-product until a 
mono-glyceride is converted to an alkyl ester.


Thanks Bob.

Regards

Keith




Keith Addison wrote:

Hello all,
Maybe a silly question,



They say the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. Not 
sure about silly answers though ... But we aren't chemists and lots 
of other people also aren't chemists, so let's see what we can make 
of it and if it's silly maybe a kindly chemist will help us out.



but I cannot figure out how it works really.
As far as I understand, veg.oil exists out of a glycerol + 3 fatty acids,
like a head with 3 legs.



I think make it three heads with their arms linked.


During the BD proces, we break off the legs, using NaOH, and connect a
methanol molecule on each leg.



They break off one by one: triglycerides become di-glycerides (two 
legs) plus an alkyl ester (one leg), one molecule of glycerin drops 
out. Then the di-glycerides become mono-glycerides (one leg) plus 
another alkyl ester and another molecule of glycerin drops out. The 
mono-glycerides then become alkyl esters and a third molecule of 
glycerin drops out.






--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman


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Re: [Biofuel] Question about BD

[bob allen]

one minor correction.  The stoichiometry of the reaction is one lipid 
molecule plus three molecules of methanol afford three fatty acid methyl 
esters plus one glycerin molecule, not three as implied. Glycerin has 
three connection points for the fatty acid chains.



 1 triglyceride +  3 MeOH   --->  3 FAME + 1 glycerin


Keith Addison wrote:

Hello all,
Maybe a silly question,



They say the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. Not sure 
about silly answers though ... But we aren't chemists and lots of other 
people also aren't chemists, so let's see what we can make of it and if 
it's silly maybe a kindly chemist will help us out.



but I cannot figure out how it works really.
As far as I understand, veg.oil exists out of a glycerol + 3 fatty acids,
like a head with 3 legs.



I think make it three heads with their arms linked.


During the BD proces, we break off the legs, using NaOH, and connect a
methanol molecule on each leg.



They break off one by one: triglycerides become di-glycerides (two legs) 
plus an alkyl ester (one leg), one molecule of glycerin drops out. Then 
the di-glycerides become mono-glycerides (one leg) plus another alkyl 
ester and another molecule of glycerin drops out. The mono-glycerides 
then become alkyl esters and a third molecule of glycerin drops out.






--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman
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Re: [Biofuel] Question about BD

[Keith Addison]

Thank you for this.


You're welcome Roy, hope it helps - hope it's right! :-)

Regards

Keith



Now I know just what is taking place.
No chemist here. LOL
Now the process makes more sense to me.
Now ... maybe ... I can understand it.
~BEST~
Roy

Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hello all,
>Maybe a silly question,

They say the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. Not sure
about silly answers though ... But we aren't chemists and lots of
other people also aren't chemists, so let's see what we can make of
it and if it's silly maybe a kindly chemist will help us out.





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Re: [Biofuel] Question about BD

[ROY Washbish]

Keith
Thank you for this.
Now I know just what is taking place.
No chemist here. LOL
Now the process makes more sense to me.
Now ... maybe ... I can understand it.
~BEST~
Roy

Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hello all,
>Maybe a silly question,

They say the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. Not sure 
about silly answers though ... But we aren't chemists and lots of 
other people also aren't chemists, so let's see what we can make of 
it and if it's silly maybe a kindly chemist will help us out.

>but I cannot figure out how it works really.
>As far as I understand, veg.oil exists out of a glycerol + 3 fatty acids,
>like a head with 3 legs.

I think make it three heads with their arms linked.

>During the BD proces, we break off the legs, using NaOH, and connect a
>methanol molecule on each leg.

They break off one by one: triglycerides become di-glycerides (two 
legs) plus an alkyl ester (one leg), one molecule of glycerin drops 
out. Then the di-glycerides become mono-glycerides (one leg) plus 
another alkyl ester and another molecule of glycerin drops out. The 
mono-glycerides then become alkyl esters and a third molecule of 
glycerin drops out.

>When we break off the legs, I would think we have free legs, so free fatty
>acids.

This process above is transesterification, when one alcohol molecule 
(glycerine) in a fatty acid chain is replaced by another alcohol 
molecule (methanol). The process reaches equilibrium before 
completion and can then go into reverse, cutting the legs off alkyl 
esters so they turn into FFAs, which dissolve back into the 
biodiesel. You can't transesterify FFAs because there's no alcohol 
molecule left to replace. Esterification joins a new alcohol molecule 
onto an FFA, ie acid esterification, and base transesterification.

>What mistakes do I make when I think this is how it works ?
>So, if this is how it works (which is prob. not the case), why do we worry
>about free fatty acids ?

See my reply to "RE: [Biofuel] A nice experience":

>>The Fuel Injection Equipment (FIE) Manufacturers (Delphi, 
>>Stanadyne, Denso, Bosch) issued a statement on biodiesel. They 
>>strongly support it, but they have their concerns too, and they're 
>>very involved in standards development... These are their concerns:
>>* Free methanol
>>* Dissolved and free water
>>* Free glycerin
>>* Mono and di glycerides
>>* Free fatty acids
>>* Total solid impurity levels
>>* Alkaline metal compounds in solution
>>* Oxidation and thermal stability
>>
>>... Free fatty acid
>>Effect: Provides an electrolyte and hastens the corrosion of zinc, 
>>Salts of organic acids, Organic compounds formed
>>Failure Mode: Corrosion of fuel injection equipment, Filter 
>>plugging, Sediments on parts
>
>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html
>FIEM report
>
>And so on.

For instance.

>I would say that we only would need less lye,
>because the legs are already lose.

They need heads, and then it should be the right kind of head. 
Triglycerides (SVO) and monoalkyl esters (biodiesel) are good diesel 
fuels, anything in between isn't - di-glycerides, mono-glycerides, 
FFAs, along with any remaining glycerine, as well as any excess 
methanol. All the national standards regard them as contaminants.

So don't use "less lye" and don't use more lye, use the right amount 
to make good biodiesel. Good biodiesel is as pure as possible with a 
minimum of contaminants.

It doesn't really matter how you go about making it, we all have our 
different ways. You find out what works and what doesn't, and then 
you also find out what works for you and what doesn't. There are 
plenty of checks along the way to tell you if you're heading in the 
right direction or not. Especially when you wash it. Just as long as 
you end up with good biodiesel for your motor.

For SVO, the European standards don't include WVO, many people 
supplying or working with SVO systems say "No WVO", and the FFA 
content is one reason for that. Elsewhere, some people making, 
selling or using SVO kits say there's no issue with WVO as long as 
it's clean and dry and you pre-heat it to lower the viscosity. The 
viscosity, again, is all that matters, they say. But they can't cite 
much research to prove it, and what few longer-term results they have 
are inconclusive, while there's a lot of research behind the European 
standards (much of it in German), and a lot of experience in Europe 
too. According to the research, good SVO fuel is also as pure as 
possible with a minimum of contaminants, including FFA.

I can't figure out how much FFA you've got in your biodiesel, but 
1,000 litres is a lot of fuel. Maybe it's not enough to do any harm, 
or maybe you could mix it with clean biodiesel to dilute it, or maybe 
use clean biodiesel in alternate tankfuls.

Best wishes

Keith


>Met dank en vriendelijke groet,
>Pieter Koole
>Netherlands

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Re: [Biofuel] Question about BD

[Keith Addison]

Maybe a silly question,


They say the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. Not sure 
about silly answers though ... But we aren't chemists and lots of 
other people also aren't chemists, so let's see what we can make of 
it and if it's silly maybe a kindly chemist will help us out.



but I cannot figure out how it works really.
As far as I understand, veg.oil exists out of a glycerol + 3 fatty acids,
like a head with 3 legs.


I think make it three heads with their arms linked.


During the BD proces, we break off the legs, using NaOH, and connect a
methanol molecule on each leg.


They break off one by one: triglycerides become di-glycerides (two 
legs) plus an alkyl ester (one leg), one molecule of glycerin drops 
out. Then the di-glycerides become mono-glycerides (one leg) plus 
another alkyl ester and another molecule of glycerin drops out. The 
mono-glycerides then become alkyl esters and a third molecule of 
glycerin drops out.



When we break off the legs, I would think we have free legs, so free fatty
acids.


This process above is transesterification, when one alcohol molecule 
(glycerine) in a fatty acid chain is replaced by another alcohol 
molecule (methanol). The process reaches equilibrium before 
completion and can then go into reverse, cutting the legs off alkyl 
esters so they turn into FFAs, which dissolve back into the 
biodiesel. You can't transesterify FFAs because there's no alcohol 
molecule left to replace. Esterification joins a new alcohol molecule 
onto an FFA, ie acid esterification, and base transesterification.



What mistakes do I make when I think this is how it works ?
So, if this is how it works (which is prob. not the case), why do we worry
about free fatty acids ?


See my reply to "RE: [Biofuel] A nice experience":

The Fuel Injection Equipment (FIE) Manufacturers (Delphi, 
Stanadyne, Denso, Bosch) issued a statement on biodiesel. They 
strongly support it, but they have their concerns too, and they're 
very involved in standards development... These are their concerns:

* Free methanol
* Dissolved and free water
* Free glycerin
* Mono and di glycerides
* Free fatty acids
* Total solid impurity levels
* Alkaline metal compounds in solution
* Oxidation and thermal stability

... Free fatty acid
Effect: Provides an electrolyte and hastens the corrosion of zinc, 
Salts of organic acids, Organic compounds formed
Failure Mode: Corrosion of fuel injection equipment, Filter 
plugging, Sediments on parts


http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html
FIEM report

And so on.


For instance.


I would say that we only would need less lye,
because the legs are already lose.


They need heads, and then it should be the right kind of head. 
Triglycerides (SVO) and monoalkyl esters (biodiesel) are good diesel 
fuels, anything in between isn't - di-glycerides, mono-glycerides, 
FFAs, along with any remaining glycerine, as well as any excess 
methanol. All the national standards regard them as contaminants.


So don't use "less lye" and don't use more lye, use the right amount 
to make good biodiesel. Good biodiesel is as pure as possible with a 
minimum of contaminants.


It doesn't really matter how you go about making it, we all have our 
different ways. You find out what works and what doesn't, and then 
you also find out what works for you and what doesn't. There are 
plenty of checks along the way to tell you if you're heading in the 
right direction or not. Especially when you wash it. Just as long as 
you end up with good biodiesel for your motor.


For SVO, the European standards don't include WVO, many people 
supplying or working with SVO systems say "No WVO", and the FFA 
content is one reason for that. Elsewhere, some people making, 
selling or using SVO kits say there's no issue with WVO as long as 
it's clean and dry and you pre-heat it to lower the viscosity. The 
viscosity, again, is all that matters, they say. But they can't cite 
much research to prove it, and what few longer-term results they have 
are inconclusive, while there's a lot of research behind the European 
standards (much of it in German), and a lot of experience in Europe 
too. According to the research, good SVO fuel is also as pure as 
possible with a minimum of contaminants, including FFA.


I can't figure out how much FFA you've got in your biodiesel, but 
1,000 litres is a lot of fuel. Maybe it's not enough to do any harm, 
or maybe you could mix it with clean biodiesel to dilute it, or maybe 
use clean biodiesel in alternate tankfuls.


Best wishes

Keith



Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands


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Re: [Biofuel] Question about BD

[Pannir P.V]

  Helow Pieter Koole 

  The free fatty acids  react with Naoh , make sop and  hence  retards
 as this this an unwanted  byprocts  as this  one is called the
saponifcation , where as the other one  you understand well is
transesterication , whwr both the  by products are glyceine where is
the main product  is the  Bio D and soap .
  I hope you understand  now 

sd
Pannir selvam
Brasil
  

On 5/8/05, Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello all,
> Maybe a silly question, but I cannot figure out how it works really.
> As far as I understand, veg.oil exists out of a glycerol + 3 fatty acids,
> like a head with 3 legs.
> During the BD proces, we break off the legs, using NaOH, and connect a
> methanol molecule on each leg.
> When we break off the legs, I would think we have free legs, so free fatty
> acids.
> What mistakes do I make when I think this is how it works ?
> So, if this is how it works (which is prob. not the case), why do we worry
> about free fatty acids ? I would say that we only would need less lye,
> because the legs are already lose.
> 
> Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
> Pieter Koole
> Netherlands
> 
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[Biofuel] Question about BD

[Pieter Koole]

Hello all,
Maybe a silly question, but I cannot figure out how it works really.
As far as I understand, veg.oil exists out of a glycerol + 3 fatty acids,
like a head with 3 legs.
During the BD proces, we break off the legs, using NaOH, and connect a
methanol molecule on each leg.
When we break off the legs, I would think we have free legs, so free fatty
acids.
What mistakes do I make when I think this is how it works ?
So, if this is how it works (which is prob. not the case), why do we worry
about free fatty acids ? I would say that we only would need less lye,
because the legs are already lose.

Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands




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Re: [Biofuel] Question

[Pieter Koole]

Thank you.

Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole

- Original Message -
From: "Paddy O'Reilly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Question


> Pieter,
>
> The word you are looking for could be "Angstrom" which is one tenth of a
> nanometer. It is used mainly in chemistry and sometimes in electronics.
>
> Paddy.
>
> Pieter Koole wrote:
>
> >Hello dear all,
> >Can anyone tell me how to find out what is glycerin, soap or solid BD ?
> >Recently I made a few batches of BD from a very poor quality WVO.( about
one
> >I already wrote; it was with water in it, which was of course my
mistake ).
> >At the moment it is winter in Holland and the temp is around zero ¡ C.
> >The "BD" turns to a mixture of solid and liquid and I don't know what is
> >what. When I filter it and put the liquid part in the tank, it is ok, but
> >the solid part is about half of the whole lot. I don't realy trust this
part
> >enough to put in my tank in the summer, because it might be glyc or even
> >soap or a mixture of the both (even mixed with solid BD ).
> >Any help or advice would be very welcome.
> >
> > Something about the mistake I made : I made BD in a tank where there was
> >some water in. The BD did not get clear, but like coffee with milk. I
washed
> >a one liter sample about 20 times now, and it is getting coffee with even
> >more milk. The water at the bottom is clear now, but I am getting a
little
> >less BD after every time I washed it. Do you think I should turn the
whole
> >lot into soap, or is there any other solution thinkable ( I can imagion
> >something with zeolite, but still I have not found any place where I can
buy
> >this stuff ( as far as I know I would need 3  )).
> >By the way,  is an old fashioned something (what is the word ?).
> >These days it is written as 1.10 » meter, where "a" is -10 in this case.
> >
> >
> >Met vriendelijke groet,
> >Pieter Koole
> >Netherlands.
> >
> >
> >___
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> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> >Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
> >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> >
> >
> >
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is
confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended
recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use,
disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return
e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s).
> Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Biofuel] Question

[Paddy O'Reilly]

The word you are looking for could be "Angstrom" which is one tenth of a 
nanometer. It is used mainly in chemistry and sometimes in electronics.


Paddy.

Pieter Koole wrote:


Hello dear all,
Can anyone tell me how to find out what is glycerin, soap or solid BD ?
Recently I made a few batches of BD from a very poor quality WVO.( about one
I already wrote; it was with water in it, which was of course my mistake ).
At the moment it is winter in Holland and the temp is around zero ¡ C.
The "BD" turns to a mixture of solid and liquid and I don't know what is
what. When I filter it and put the liquid part in the tank, it is ok, but
the solid part is about half of the whole lot. I don't realy trust this part
enough to put in my tank in the summer, because it might be glyc or even
soap or a mixture of the both (even mixed with solid BD ).
Any help or advice would be very welcome.

Something about the mistake I made : I made BD in a tank where there was
some water in. The BD did not get clear, but like coffee with milk. I washed
a one liter sample about 20 times now, and it is getting coffee with even
more milk. The water at the bottom is clear now, but I am getting a little
less BD after every time I washed it. Do you think I should turn the whole
lot into soap, or is there any other solution thinkable ( I can imagion
something with zeolite, but still I have not found any place where I can buy
this stuff ( as far as I know I would need 3  )).
By the way,  is an old fashioned something (what is the word ?).
These days it is written as 1.10 » meter, where "a" is -10 in this case.


Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands.


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and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you 
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[Biofuel] Question

[Pieter Koole]

Hello dear all,
Can anyone tell me how to find out what is glycerin, soap or solid BD ?
Recently I made a few batches of BD from a very poor quality WVO.( about one
I already wrote; it was with water in it, which was of course my mistake ).
At the moment it is winter in Holland and the temp is around zero ¡ C.
The "BD" turns to a mixture of solid and liquid and I don't know what is
what. When I filter it and put the liquid part in the tank, it is ok, but
the solid part is about half of the whole lot. I don't realy trust this part
enough to put in my tank in the summer, because it might be glyc or even
soap or a mixture of the both (even mixed with solid BD ).
Any help or advice would be very welcome.

 Something about the mistake I made : I made BD in a tank where there was
some water in. The BD did not get clear, but like coffee with milk. I washed
a one liter sample about 20 times now, and it is getting coffee with even
more milk. The water at the bottom is clear now, but I am getting a little
less BD after every time I washed it. Do you think I should turn the whole
lot into soap, or is there any other solution thinkable ( I can imagion
something with zeolite, but still I have not found any place where I can buy
this stuff ( as far as I know I would need 3  )).
By the way,  is an old fashioned something (what is the word ?).
These days it is written as 1.10 » meter, where "a" is -10 in this case.


Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands.


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Re: [Biofuel] question regarding gas fired water heaters?

[Martin Klingensmith]

Hi Buck, Ray, Mike and all

its galsss and beat the heack out of it wiaht something like a piece 
of rebar, and why woulddd you want to take it out, as its inert, buck,


its same makeup as old ceramic cookkkpot, glasss over steel, any 
denting poppps the glass o but why would u buck,



Because it's going to get real hot!

I'd say leave the glass there. If it gets hot enough to slump, it will 
slump and separate, but it shouldn't cause any harm if it does so.


--
Martin K
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RE: [Biofuel] question regarding gas fired water heaters?

[Buck Williams]

make it burn hotter and burnn the whole thaing,, if it gets hot enough to 
melt theee gla it will slump to the bottoam and sit there, buck,.



From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] question regarding gas fired water heaters?
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:03:08 +0900

Hi Buck, Ray, Mike and all

its galsss and beat the heack out of it wiaht something like a piece of 
rebar, and why woulddd you want to take it out, as its inert, buck,


its same makeup as old ceramic cookkkpot, glasss over steel, any 
denting poppps the glass o but why would u buck,


Because it's going to get real hot!


Can anyone tell me 1) what the lining inside a natural gas fired water
heater tank is made of, and 2) are there any known ways of removing it
without damaging the tank beneath?

I am in the very early stages of helping a neighbor build a waste oil
heater.  He has a surplus of these tanks, but very little in the way of
money.  Since I have already built one, and it is still working just fine 
I

agreed to help him build his.


Is that a Mother Earth News heater Mike? This one:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html
Mother Earth: Waste Oil Heater

If so, which design did you/will you use? - the original, with no power 
required, or the new-fangled one some of us have been working on, with a 
forced air supply?


It's said the original design does not burn hot enough for safe and clean 
combustion of modern lube oil, which has much higher burning temps than it 
did 25 years ago when the heater was designed. It seems though that some 
people who've built them don't agree with that, they find it works just 
fine. What do you think?


I don't know about this because we've never tried it with waste lube oil. 
We have one built to the original design, here:


http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me7.html
Journey to Forever's Waste Oil Heater

But we've only ever used it with WVO, as we'd intended, and it works fine. 
We're using it right now. It makes all the difference to keeping this old 
house warm.


It doesn't burn hot enough for clean combustion of the glycerin by-product 
from making biodiesel though - it does burn it, but it quickly gets gunged 
up. This is why we've been working on the forced-air design. We should be 
testing it soon.


Best wishes

Keith



All these plans are on temporary hold though
because neither of us genius's knew that these tanks were lined.  Oh 
well,

plenty of time for more planning and perhaps one more beer.  Any info or
guidance will be greatly appreciated.

AntiFossil
Mike Krafka
Minnesota USA

*
"If you think you are too small to make a
difference try sleeping with a mosquito."
Dalai Lama
*
"Experience is the comb that nature gives us
when we are bald."
Belgian proverb
*


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RE: [Biofuel] question regarding gas fired water heaters?

[Keith Addison]

its galsss and beat the heack out of it wiaht something like a piece 
of rebar, and why woulddd you want to take it out, as its inert, 
buck,


its same makeup as old ceramic cookkkpot, glasss over steel, any 
denting poppps the glass o but why would u buck,


Because it's going to get real hot!


Can anyone tell me 1) what the lining inside a natural gas fired water
heater tank is made of, and 2) are there any known ways of removing it
without damaging the tank beneath?

I am in the very early stages of helping a neighbor build a waste oil
heater.  He has a surplus of these tanks, but very little in the way of
money.  Since I have already built one, and it is still working just fine I
agreed to help him build his.


Is that a Mother Earth News heater Mike? This one:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html
Mother Earth: Waste Oil Heater

If so, which design did you/will you use? - the original, with no 
power required, or the new-fangled one some of us have been working 
on, with a forced air supply?


It's said the original design does not burn hot enough for safe and 
clean combustion of modern lube oil, which has much higher burning 
temps than it did 25 years ago when the heater was designed. It seems 
though that some people who've built them don't agree with that, they 
find it works just fine. What do you think?


I don't know about this because we've never tried it with waste lube 
oil. We have one built to the original design, here:


http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me7.html
Journey to Forever's Waste Oil Heater

But we've only ever used it with WVO, as we'd intended, and it works 
fine. We're using it right now. It makes all the difference to 
keeping this old house warm.


It doesn't burn hot enough for clean combustion of the glycerin 
by-product from making biodiesel though - it does burn it, but it 
quickly gets gunged up. This is why we've been working on the 
forced-air design. We should be testing it soon.


Best wishes

Keith



All these plans are on temporary hold though
because neither of us genius's knew that these tanks were lined.  Oh well,
plenty of time for more planning and perhaps one more beer.  Any info or
guidance will be greatly appreciated.

AntiFossil
Mike Krafka
Minnesota USA

*
"If you think you are too small to make a
difference try sleeping with a mosquito."
Dalai Lama
*
"Experience is the comb that nature gives us
when we are bald."
Belgian proverb
*


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RE: [Biofuel] question regarding gas fired water heaters?

[Buck Williams]

its same makeup as old ceramic cookkkpot, glasss over steel, any denting 
poppps the glass o but why would u buck,


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RE: [Biofuel] question regarding gas fired water heaters?

[Buck Williams]

its galsss and beat the heack out of it wiaht something like a piece of 
rebar, and why woulddd you want to take it out, as its inert, buck,


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Re: [Biofuel] question regarding gas fired water heaters?

[Ray J]

most people are trying to get a good coating..

Ray J... 


Anti-Fossil wrote:


Can anyone tell me 1) what the lining inside a natural gas fired water
heater tank is made of, and 2) are there any known ways of removing it
without damaging the tank beneath?

I am in the very early stages of helping a neighbor build a waste oil
heater.  He has a surplus of these tanks, but very little in the way of
money.  Since I have already built one, and it is still working just fine I
agreed to help him build his.  All these plans are on temporary hold though
because neither of us genius's knew that these tanks were lined.  Oh well,
plenty of time for more planning and perhaps one more beer.  Any info or
guidance will be greatly appreciated.

AntiFossil
Mike Krafka
Minnesota USA

*
"If you think you are too small to make a
difference try sleeping with a mosquito."
Dalai Lama
*
"Experience is the comb that nature gives us
when we are bald."
Belgian proverb
*

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[Biofuel] question regarding gas fired water heaters?

[Anti-Fossil]

Can anyone tell me 1) what the lining inside a natural gas fired water
heater tank is made of, and 2) are there any known ways of removing it
without damaging the tank beneath?

I am in the very early stages of helping a neighbor build a waste oil
heater.  He has a surplus of these tanks, but very little in the way of
money.  Since I have already built one, and it is still working just fine I
agreed to help him build his.  All these plans are on temporary hold though
because neither of us genius's knew that these tanks were lined.  Oh well,
plenty of time for more planning and perhaps one more beer.  Any info or
guidance will be greatly appreciated.

AntiFossil
Mike Krafka
Minnesota USA

*
"If you think you are too small to make a
difference try sleeping with a mosquito."
Dalai Lama
*
"Experience is the comb that nature gives us
when we are bald."
Belgian proverb
*

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Re: [Biofuel] question about methanol recovery..........

[Legal Eagle]

to ignite the fuel. the rest you seem to have figured out, however, and I am 
sure I will be corrected if wrong, most seperate the glycerine from the BD 
before recovering the methanol from the glycol where most of it rests.
You heat the glyc to just above 148.5 and continue increasing the heat as 
the methanol evaporates until you have it all, and then you remove the 
glycerine and either make soap or further process to get at the somwhat pure 
glycerine for other applications should you have a market for it.

There's a bunch of stuff about this at the JtF site.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methreclaim
Have a snoop, and then two plus two...
Luc
Personally I have decided not to use the reactor for methanol recovery as 
was my original intent. Seeing as I will be dealing with mangeable 
quantities and not large volumes I'm going to have a go with a pressure 
cooker and hot plate and attach the condenser's coil to the cooker's vent 
and see how that works out. I will be posting the results (when I get to 
that part) good or bad. The learning curve isn't only about success, 
sometimes the errors are even more important as they walk us through the 
rpocess so that we understand it better...

Luc
- Original Message - 
From: "Jeff DeLaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 10:12 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] question about methanol recovery..


Hi all,

This may sound like a stupid question and it may have been answered before, 
but I am new to the process of making biodiesel so please bear with 
me


My question is this.

I am using an 80 gallon water heater as my reactor.  I have heard that this 
can easily be used to recover my methanol.  Can someone explain in step-by 
step detail the process which I could use to recover the methanol?  I know 
the basics of running the vapor through a condensor, but my concern is about 
reheating the biodiesel before condensing.  Is it safe to use the heating 
element inside the water heater to heat the mixture back up or is there any 
danger of the biodiesel igniting and causing a fire?  What (in your opinion) 
is the safest way to recover the methanol when making biodiesel?


I have been researching this project for about 4 months now and I am 
currently accumulating the supplies necessary to build my own processor.  I 
look forward to reading your replies.  Thanks in advance.


Jeff
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[Biofuel] question about methanol recovery..........

[Jeff DeLaney]

Hi all,

This may sound like a stupid question and it may have been answered before, but 
I am new to the process of making biodiesel so please bear with me

My question is this.

I am using an 80 gallon water heater as my reactor.  I have heard that this can 
easily be used to recover my methanol.  Can someone explain in step-by step 
detail the process which I could use to recover the methanol?  I know the 
basics of running the vapor through a condensor, but my concern is about 
reheating the biodiesel before condensing.  Is it safe to use the heating 
element inside the water heater to heat the mixture back up or is there any 
danger of the biodiesel igniting and causing a fire?  What (in your opinion) is 
the safest way to recover the methanol when making biodiesel?

I have been researching this project for about 4 months now and I am currently 
accumulating the supplies necessary to build my own processor.  I look forward 
to reading your replies.  Thanks in advance.

Jeff
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Re: [Biofuel] Question about Hornet wind turbine

[dwoodard]

Go to
http://yahoogroups.com/group/awea-wind-home .

Follow the instructions to join.

For wind power information:

http://www.windpower.dk

http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk

http://www.wind-works.org

http://www.awea.org
and other national associations.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario


On Wed, 10 Nov 2004, Benjamin Bryant wrote:

> In Biofuel Digest, Vol 3, Issue 25 Hakan had mentioned something about 
> quality concerns with the Hornet.  I would like to know a little more about 
> this.  Also, what is the "awea wind list" and how does one gain access to it?
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Re: [Biofuel] Question about Hornet wind turbine

[Hakan Falk]

Hornet is not really a manufactured wind turbine, it is blade design mainly 
and it is others that buys only the blades. A hornet turbine is the blades 
who are proprietary with car generator and basically a kit for DIY. The 
discussion list have several posting about Hornet


This is the info about the awea-wind-home list:

==
THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
--
. Please feel free to send your input to:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
.. To view previous messages from the list,
  subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
  or stop receiving the list by e-mail
  (and read it on the Web), go to
  http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home 
.

. An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
  http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen 
.

. This e-mail discussion list is managed by
  the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
  http://www.awea.org .  AWEA maintains the Home
  Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
  those wishing to learn more about home energy
  systems, and takes no responsibility for the
  opinions or technical advice provided on the
  list.
--

Hakan


At 07:07 PM 11/10/2004, you wrote:
In Biofuel Digest, Vol 3, Issue 25 Hakan had mentioned something about 
quality concerns with the Hornet.  I would like to know a little more 
about this.  Also, what is the "awea wind list" and how does one gain 
access to it?


Thanks in advance from just another newbie.
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[Biofuel] Question about Hornet wind turbine

[Benjamin Bryant]

In Biofuel Digest, Vol 3, Issue 25 Hakan had mentioned something about quality 
concerns with the Hornet.  I would like to know a little more about this.  
Also, what is the "awea wind list" and how does one gain access to it?

Thanks in advance from just another newbie.
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RE: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion....Carbon Forcing or solar activity

[Johnston, Don]

Kirk, apologies , but that was way over my head! I did however understand the 
'Manic Sun', and the three Danish Scientists made no mention of meteors. 
Don Johnston
Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council
Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group

Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Tel: 023 9283 4247


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
Sent: 12 October 2004 15:22
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight
conversionCarbon Forcing or solar activity


I think meteoric activity is in there as well sice it is the "doping" of the 
photosphere that makes a difference. Plasmas emit photons roughly proportional 
to the square of the number of electrons of the atom making up the plasma. Iron 
has 55 so it has much more emission than hydrogen with 1. So you see a little 
iron goes a long way in modifying solar emission.
 
Kirk

"Johnston, Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Have you read 'The Manic Sun- Weather Theories Confounded' by Nigel calder, who 
concludes that our weather is at the mercy of exploding stars in the milky way 
combined with solar activity.
Following my IT instruction on the biofuel list I will cut and paste a 
resume
GLOBAL WARMING

CARBON FORCING OR SOLAR ACTIVITY ??!


See "The Manic Sun - Weather Theories Confounded"
By Nigel Calder 1997, Pilkington Press, ISBN 1 899044 1 1 6

The Author: Made reputation by spotting scientific revolutions as they occur. 
Responsible for TV programmes: - "Violent Universe", Restless Earth", "The Life 
Game", etc etc. Has tracked the debate between Solar or Greenhouse warming for 
more than 20 years. A reputable independent reporter of science. The author 
cautions: - "Critics beware, your reactions may provide material for a later 
edition..."

This book records the scientific study of global warming and the developing 
understanding of the mechanisms which affect it. It particularly follows the 
development of the "Greenhouse" theory or "Carbon Forcing" and views this in 
relation to the study of solar impact on global weather.

The mechanisms by which varying solar electro-magnetic activities affects 
global weather was discovered by 3 Danish scientists, Knud Lassen, Eigil 
Friis-Christensen and Henrik Svensmark using: -

1. Their own work on the Earth's magnetic field and solar activity.

2. Data from other research scientists on cosmic rays, solar studies, 
temperature and weather records, magnetic fields, the mechanisms of cloud 
formation, el nino and volcanic effects and much newer data available from 
solar and earth observing satellites.

They found that: -

1. The Earth is "washed" by a magnetic shield and solar wind from the sun, 
which vary in intensity with the suns own electromagnetic flares and sunspot 
activity

The stronger the activity on and in the sun, the stronger the solar wind and 
magnetic shield.

2. The Earth is constantly bombarded by cosmic rays from the Milky Way.

3. The effect of cosmic rays is to charge atmospheric particles with the result 
that clouds form more easily.

4. Cosmic rays are drawn to the Earth's poles by the Earth's magnetic field. 
They are therefore concentrated in middle to pole latitudes and assist the 
formation of more clouds in middle latitudes.

5. Clouds actually cool the Earth by preventing the sun's heat from reaching it.

6. But, the effect of both the solar wind and solar magnetic shield is to turn 
away from the Earth the bombardment of cosmic rays - thus less cloud formation 
and greater solar heat impinges on Earth, thus warming it.

Using cosmic ray data (radio beryllium deposits in Greenland ice cores) from 
1885 and comparing them with IPCC temperature data they can demonstrate that 
the global land temperature simply follows (to within 0.2oc) the intensity of 
cosmic rays. Variations are explained by prolonged el nino effects and volcanic 
eruptions. In addition, the empirical indicator of solar vigour, the length of 
the solar cycle, matches climate change back to 1500, i.e. before the 
industrial revolution and our use of fossil fuels leading to the carbon forcing 
theory.

The author criticises the IPCC super computers for not taking enough regard of:

1. Solar and cosmic ray activity

2. Cloud thickness and its cooling effect

3. The effects of mid ocean cloud formation of which little was known until 
reasonably recently (satellite pictures and surface studies)

Bert Bolin, Swedish deputy for the IPCC, firstly discredited the Danish 
Scientists work and is quoted in "information" as saying "I find the move from 
this pair scientifically extremely na•ve and irresponsible".

But a few weeks l

RE: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion....Carbon Forcing or solar activity

[Kirk McLoren]

I think meteoric activity is in there as well sice it is the "doping" of the 
photosphere that makes a difference. Plasmas emit photons roughly proportional 
to the square of the number of electrons of the atom making up the plasma. Iron 
has 55 so it has much more emission than hydrogen with 1. So you see a little 
iron goes a long way in modifying solar emission.
 
Kirk

"Johnston, Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Have you read 'The Manic Sun- Weather Theories Confounded' by Nigel calder, who 
concludes that our weather is at the mercy of exploding stars in the milky way 
combined with solar activity.
Following my IT instruction on the biofuel list I will cut and paste a 
resume
GLOBAL WARMING

CARBON FORCING OR SOLAR ACTIVITY ??!


See "The Manic Sun - Weather Theories Confounded"
By Nigel Calder 1997, Pilkington Press, ISBN 1 899044 1 1 6

The Author: Made reputation by spotting scientific revolutions as they occur. 
Responsible for TV programmes: - "Violent Universe", Restless Earth", "The Life 
Game", etc etc. Has tracked the debate between Solar or Greenhouse warming for 
more than 20 years. A reputable independent reporter of science. The author 
cautions: - "Critics beware, your reactions may provide material for a later 
edition..."

This book records the scientific study of global warming and the developing 
understanding of the mechanisms which affect it. It particularly follows the 
development of the "Greenhouse" theory or "Carbon Forcing" and views this in 
relation to the study of solar impact on global weather.

The mechanisms by which varying solar electro-magnetic activities affects 
global weather was discovered by 3 Danish scientists, Knud Lassen, Eigil 
Friis-Christensen and Henrik Svensmark using: -

1. Their own work on the Earth's magnetic field and solar activity.

2. Data from other research scientists on cosmic rays, solar studies, 
temperature and weather records, magnetic fields, the mechanisms of cloud 
formation, el nino and volcanic effects and much newer data available from 
solar and earth observing satellites.

They found that: -

1. The Earth is "washed" by a magnetic shield and solar wind from the sun, 
which vary in intensity with the suns own electromagnetic flares and sunspot 
activity

The stronger the activity on and in the sun, the stronger the solar wind and 
magnetic shield.

2. The Earth is constantly bombarded by cosmic rays from the Milky Way.

3. The effect of cosmic rays is to charge atmospheric particles with the result 
that clouds form more easily.

4. Cosmic rays are drawn to the Earth's poles by the Earth's magnetic field. 
They are therefore concentrated in middle to pole latitudes and assist the 
formation of more clouds in middle latitudes.

5. Clouds actually cool the Earth by preventing the sun's heat from reaching it.

6. But, the effect of both the solar wind and solar magnetic shield is to turn 
away from the Earth the bombardment of cosmic rays - thus less cloud formation 
and greater solar heat impinges on Earth, thus warming it.

Using cosmic ray data (radio beryllium deposits in Greenland ice cores) from 
1885 and comparing them with IPCC temperature data they can demonstrate that 
the global land temperature simply follows (to within 0.2oc) the intensity of 
cosmic rays. Variations are explained by prolonged el nino effects and volcanic 
eruptions. In addition, the empirical indicator of solar vigour, the length of 
the solar cycle, matches climate change back to 1500, i.e. before the 
industrial revolution and our use of fossil fuels leading to the carbon forcing 
theory.

The author criticises the IPCC super computers for not taking enough regard of:

1. Solar and cosmic ray activity

2. Cloud thickness and its cooling effect

3. The effects of mid ocean cloud formation of which little was known until 
reasonably recently (satellite pictures and surface studies)

Bert Bolin, Swedish deputy for the IPCC, firstly discredited the Danish 
Scientists work and is quoted in "information" as saying "I find the move from 
this pair scientifically extremely naïve and irresponsible".

But a few weeks later, after reading the Svensmark and Friis-Christensen 
pre-print, he is quoted in the Swedish magazine "Ny Teknik" as saying.."it 
is pleasing to see such a sane and sincere scientific investigation". It 
differs quite a lot from other questionings of the greenhouse effect. 
Naturally, I was surprised by the big changes they report in the clouds I 
can't see that their findings are given a satisfactory explanation. They do not 
conclude anything about the effects of human activity. But there is no doubt 
that this is serious science.

Despite virtually disproving the carbon forcing theory the book does caution 
that it is wise to continue with more efficient energy use and renewable 
sources for reasons of protecting limited resources and tackling acid rain, 
pollution and air quality issues.

The Danish scientists' work was pub

RE: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion....Carbon Forcing or solar activity

[Johnston, Don]

 is 
at the mercy of our sun's magnetic activity and exploding stars in the Milky 
Way - the source of cosmic rays.

Don Johnston
Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council
Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group

Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Tel: 023 9283 4247


-----Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ken Riznyk
Sent: 12 October 2004 00:43
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion


Water vapor in the short run of course has more effect
on the local weather considering rain fall and fronts
etc. However CO2 will have much more effect in the
long run considering global warming. The fact that all
the other gases comprise less than 1% of the
atmosphere means nothing. I sure you would not want to
live in an atmosphere with 1 part per million of VX
nerve gas.
Ken

--- robert harder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In most less techincal sources you will find the
> composition of our 
> atmosphere listed as 20% Oxygen, 80% Nitrogen and
> <1% Other gases, which 
> means that all of the greenhouse gasses that people
> are concerned about are 
> so "insignificant" that together they total less
> than one percent of the 
> atmosphere. Ask any meteroligist what has more
> effect on the weather co2 
> levels or water vapor levels, water will win every
> time. I did not give 
> thought to what was said about water being a by
> product in either process 
> and i that is a good point that was made, I am just
> concerned that everyone 
> considers water a harmless by product but there is a
> balance to everything, 
> and nothing is harmless. Although personally i do
> also beleive that the 
> climate follows a pettern that is larger than we
> have the data to see, and 
> although it may be getting warmer, i believe that
> there is nothing we can do 
> about it, it is part of a cycle which will
> inevitably lead to an ice age and 
> round and round the cycle goes,
> 
> 
> >From: "Appal Energy"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of
> sunlight conversion
> >Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:08:50 -0500
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> > > I haven't done the
> > > calculations but it would not be difficult
> to determine the total 
> water
> > > released from combustion of all fossil
> fuels.  I doubt if it is a
> > > significant issue.
> >
> >Water vapor is a contributor to the greenhouse
> effect. A fossil-fueled
> >hydrogen economy could contribute a double punch
> to this problem, CO2 
> during
> >and post stripping phase and water vapor at the
> end use stage. That's 
> rather
> >"significant."
> >
> >As well, the entire concept of
> "insignificant" is a matter of 
> subjectivity
> >and trivializes all things to a point of
> irrelevance - all too often the
> >intent -  no matter how invaluable something's
> contribution may be.. 
> Those
> >who could care less or couldn't be bothered to
> care all too off-handedly
> >dismiss anything as insignificant, no matter the
> end result being
> >catastrophic or incremental towards a productive
> goal.
> >
> >Nothing is "insignificant" and those
> who bandy the term about 
> should be kept
> >under close scrutiny.
> >
> >Todd Swearingen
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "bob allen"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 4:54 PM
> >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of
> sunlight conversion
> >
> >
> > > Robert,  the hydrogen in oil will end up
> as water regardless.
> > > Combustion of hydrocarbons produces CO2
> and H2O.  So whether you 
> strip
> > > the hydrogen out of the fossil fuel and
> burn it or burn it while 
> it is
> > > still part of the fossil fuel makes no
> difference.  I haven't done 
> the
> > > calculations but it would not be difficult
> to determine the total 
> water
> > > released from combustion of all fossil
> fuels.  I doubt if it is a
> > > significant issue.
> > >
> ;
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/

Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[Ken Riznyk]

Water vapor in the short run of course has more effect
on the local weather considering rain fall and fronts
etc. However CO2 will have much more effect in the
long run considering global warming. The fact that all
the other gases comprise less than 1% of the
atmosphere means nothing. I sure you would not want to
live in an atmosphere with 1 part per million of VX
nerve gas.
Ken

--- robert harder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In most less techincal sources you will find the
> composition of our 
> atmosphere listed as 20% Oxygen, 80% Nitrogen and
> <1% Other gases, which 
> means that all of the greenhouse gasses that people
> are concerned about are 
> so "insignificant" that together they total less
> than one percent of the 
> atmosphere. Ask any meteroligist what has more
> effect on the weather co2 
> levels or water vapor levels, water will win every
> time. I did not give 
> thought to what was said about water being a by
> product in either process 
> and i that is a good point that was made, I am just
> concerned that everyone 
> considers water a harmless by product but there is a
> balance to everything, 
> and nothing is harmless. Although personally i do
> also beleive that the 
> climate follows a pettern that is larger than we
> have the data to see, and 
> although it may be getting warmer, i believe that
> there is nothing we can do 
> about it, it is part of a cycle which will
> inevitably lead to an ice age and 
> round and round the cycle goes,
> 
> 
> >From: "Appal Energy"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of
> sunlight conversion
> >Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:08:50 -0500
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> > > I haven't done the
> > > calculations but it would not be difficult
> to determine the total 
> water
> > > released from combustion of all fossil
> fuels.  I doubt if it is a
> > > significant issue.
> >
> >Water vapor is a contributor to the greenhouse
> effect. A fossil-fueled
> >hydrogen economy could contribute a double punch
> to this problem, CO2 
> during
> >and post stripping phase and water vapor at the
> end use stage. That's 
> rather
> >"significant."
> >
> >As well, the entire concept of
> "insignificant" is a matter of 
> subjectivity
> >and trivializes all things to a point of
> irrelevance - all too often the
> >intent -  no matter how invaluable something's
> contribution may be.. 
> Those
> >who could care less or couldn't be bothered to
> care all too off-handedly
> >dismiss anything as insignificant, no matter the
> end result being
> >catastrophic or incremental towards a productive
> goal.
> >
> >Nothing is "insignificant" and those
> who bandy the term about 
> should be kept
> >under close scrutiny.
> >
> >Todd Swearingen
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "bob allen"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 4:54 PM
> >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of
> sunlight conversion
> >
> >
> > > Robert,  the hydrogen in oil will end up
> as water regardless.
> > > Combustion of hydrocarbons produces CO2
> and H2O.  So whether you 
> strip
> > > the hydrogen out of the fossil fuel and
> burn it or burn it while 
> it is
> > > still part of the fossil fuel makes no
> difference.  I haven't done 
> the
> > > calculations but it would not be difficult
> to determine the total 
> water
> > > released from combustion of all fossil
> fuels.  I doubt if it is a
> > > significant issue.
> > >
> ;
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> 




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RE: [Biofuel] Question about biodiesel

[Steve Spence]

My '83 vw rabbit does, but my Detroit Diesel generator does not.

Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Legal Eagle
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 9:52 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Question about biodiesel

It is my understanding that ALL diesels need a glow plug ignition of
some
sort.
Luc
- Original Message - 
From: "frag lag" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:21 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Question about biodiesel


> i have an old italian compression diesel here (500cc) , a no runner at
the
> moment , would biodiesel work in it or do i need an ignition source
> (glowplug)
>
> _
> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>
> ___
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>
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>
> Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Question about biodiesel

[Legal Eagle]

Thanks for the info Erik. Learned something new today :)

Luc
- Original Message - 
From: "Erik Lane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Question about biodiesel


> nope, some of them, especially the smaller ones like
> that do not need glow plugs. they fire off from the
> heat of compression only. in fact some tractors have
> no glow plugs either. i have no idea of percentage of
> them having or not having glow plugs, but the ones
> that we use on the farm do NOT have any glow plugs.
> they usually fire right off. i don't know how...
> 
> biodiesel should ignite the same as petro diesel in
> such an engine. you should just give it a try. the
> only things to worry about are rubber seals or hoses
> in the fuel system. they can be swelled by biodiesel
> or perhaps worse if it's the wrong material.
> 
> erik
> --- Legal Eagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > It is my understanding that ALL diesels need a glow
> > plug ignition of some
> > sort.
> > Luc
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "frag lag" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:21 PM
> > Subject: [Biofuel] Question about biodiesel
> > 
> > 
> > > i have an old italian compression diesel here
> > (500cc) , a no runner at the
> > > moment , would biodiesel work in it or do i need
> > an ignition source
> > > (glowplug)
> > >
> > >
> >
> _
> > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> > >
> >
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Biofuel mailing list
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >
> > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
> > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel
> > 
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > 
> > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
> > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> > 
> 
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Question about biodiesel

[Erik Lane]

nope, some of them, especially the smaller ones like
that do not need glow plugs. they fire off from the
heat of compression only. in fact some tractors have
no glow plugs either. i have no idea of percentage of
them having or not having glow plugs, but the ones
that we use on the farm do NOT have any glow plugs.
they usually fire right off. i don't know how...

biodiesel should ignite the same as petro diesel in
such an engine. you should just give it a try. the
only things to worry about are rubber seals or hoses
in the fuel system. they can be swelled by biodiesel
or perhaps worse if it's the wrong material.

erik
--- Legal Eagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It is my understanding that ALL diesels need a glow
> plug ignition of some
> sort.
> Luc
> - Original Message - 
> From: "frag lag" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:21 PM
> Subject: [Biofuel] Question about biodiesel
> 
> 
> > i have an old italian compression diesel here
> (500cc) , a no runner at the
> > moment , would biodiesel work in it or do i need
> an ignition source
> > (glowplug)
> >
> >
>
_
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> > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
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Re: [Biofuel] Question about biodiesel

[Legal Eagle]

It is my understanding that ALL diesels need a glow plug ignition of some
sort.
Luc
- Original Message - 
From: "frag lag" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:21 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Question about biodiesel


> i have an old italian compression diesel here (500cc) , a no runner at the
> moment , would biodiesel work in it or do i need an ignition source
> (glowplug)
>
> _
> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>
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[Biofuel] Question about biodiesel

[frag lag]

moment , would biodiesel work in it or do i need an ignition source 
(glowplug)


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RE: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[Peggy]

Good Point Robert!
P.

Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

In most less techincal sources you will find the composition of our 
atmosphere listed as 20% Oxygen, 80% Nitrogen and <1% Other gases, which

means that all of the greenhouse gasses that people are concerned about
are 
so "insignificant" that together they total less than one percent of the

atmosphere. Ask any meteroligist what has more effect on the weather co2

levels or water vapor levels, water will win every time. I did not give 
thought to what was said about water being a by product in either
process 
and i that is a good point that was made, I am just concerned that
everyone 
considers water a harmless by product but there is a balance to
everything, 
and nothing is harmless. Although personally i do also beleive that the 
climate follows a pettern that is larger than we have the data to see,
and 
although it may be getting warmer, i believe that there is nothing we
can do 
about it, it is part of a cycle which will inevitably lead to an ice age
and 
round and round the cycle goes,

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Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[robert harder]

atmosphere listed as 20% Oxygen, 80% Nitrogen and <1% Other gases, which 
means that all of the greenhouse gasses that people are concerned about are 
so "insignificant" that together they total less than one percent of the 
atmosphere. Ask any meteroligist what has more effect on the weather co2 
levels or water vapor levels, water will win every time. I did not give 
thought to what was said about water being a by product in either process 
and i that is a good point that was made, I am just concerned that everyone 
considers water a harmless by product but there is a balance to everything, 
and nothing is harmless. Although personally i do also beleive that the 
climate follows a pettern that is larger than we have the data to see, and 
although it may be getting warmer, i believe that there is nothing we can do 
about it, it is part of a cycle which will inevitably lead to an ice age and 
round and round the cycle goes,



>From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:08:50 -0500
>
>Bob,
>
> > I haven't done the
> > calculations but it would not be difficult to determine the total 
water

> > released from combustion of all fossil fuels.  I doubt if it is a
> > significant issue.
>
>Water vapor is a contributor to the greenhouse effect. A fossil-fueled
>hydrogen economy could contribute a double punch to this problem, CO2 
during
>and post stripping phase and water vapor at the end use stage. That's 
rather

>"significant."
>
>As well, the entire concept of "insignificant" is a matter of 
subjectivity

>and trivializes all things to a point of irrelevance - all too often the
>intent -  no matter how invaluable something's contribution may be.. 
Those

>who could care less or couldn't be bothered to care all too off-handedly
>dismiss anything as insignificant, no matter the end result being
>catastrophic or incremental towards a productive goal.
>
>Nothing is "insignificant" and those who bandy the term about 
should be kept

>under close scrutiny.
>
>Todd Swearingen
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 4:54 PM
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion
>
>
> > Robert,  the hydrogen in oil will end up as water regardless.
> > Combustion of hydrocarbons produces CO2 and H2O.  So whether you 
strip
> > the hydrogen out of the fossil fuel and burn it or burn it while 
it is
> > still part of the fossil fuel makes no difference.  I haven't done 
the
> > calculations but it would not be difficult to determine the total 
water

> > released from combustion of all fossil fuels.  I doubt if it is a
> > significant issue.
> >
;


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Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[bob allen]

yes, water vapor is a greenhouse gas, a significant one, but it is a 
dependent variable.  It constitutes a positive reinforcement of 
radiative forcing. The concentration in the atmosphere is not so 
much a function of how much water is on the planet, but rather the 
temperature of the atmosphere.  Liquid water, ice and water vapor are in 
equilibrium, add water vapor to the atmosphere, which will simply 
condense out , is what I consider an insignificant variable compared to 
changing the temperature of the atmosphere. With no addition of water to 
the system, raising the temperature of the atm will have a much greater 
effect than adding water to the system.


I therefore stand by my claim that the amount of water added to the 
system by the combustion of fossil fuels is insignificant compared to 
for example addition of  CO2 to the system. 




Appal Energy wrote:


Bob,

 


I haven't done the
calculations but it would not be difficult to determine the total water
released from combustion of all fossil fuels.  I doubt if it is a
significant issue.
   



Water vapor is a contributor to the greenhouse effect. A fossil-fueled
hydrogen economy could contribute a double punch to this problem, CO2 during
and post stripping phase and water vapor at the end use stage. That's rather
"significant."

As well, the entire concept of "insignificant" is a matter of subjectivity
and trivializes all things to a point of irrelevance - all too often the
intent -  no matter how invaluable something's contribution may be.. Those
who could care less or couldn't be bothered to care all too off-handedly
dismiss anything as insignificant, no matter the end result being
catastrophic or incremental towards a productive goal.

Nothing is "insignificant" and those who bandy the term about should be kept
under close scrutiny.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion


 


Robert,  the hydrogen in oil will end up as water regardless.
Combustion of hydrocarbons produces CO2 and H2O.  So whether you strip
the hydrogen out of the fossil fuel and burn it or burn it while it is
still part of the fossil fuel makes no difference.  I haven't done the
calculations but it would not be difficult to determine the total water
released from combustion of all fossil fuels.  I doubt if it is a
significant issue.

robert harder wrote:

   


The hydrogen economy is being pushed because it is favored by the
current oil companies, the cheapest source of hydrogen is oil and
therefore switching to hydrogen will not reduce the use or profits of
oil, but i fear that large scale use of hydrogen that was not sourced
from the electrolysis of water (which is useless as energy source,
only a method of energy storage) will lead to an increase in the total
volume of water in earths biosphere and water vapor in our atmosphere
which I beleive will be far more apt to alter weather than our current
problems of co2 and co

>From: jeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:53:50 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
>Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hello again Donald
>
>
>
> >As an aside, I am puzzled as to why there is so much emphasis
being
> >placed on the "Hydrogen Economy" at the moment,
especially by the US
> >government. Hydogen is just a way of storing and transporting
energy,
> >just as are biofuels. OK, I realise that fuel cells can
theoretically
> >deliver a greater whole-cycle efficiency than biofuels, but
it seems to
> >me that a lot of money is being spent on something that
probably won't
> >give us a cost-effective solution for at least 20 years -
given that
> >there are still a large number of technical hurdles without
totally
> >satisfactory solutions.
>
>As an big 'Oil Man' from texas, I think Bush likes the Hydrogen
idea because the power is still in his hands rather than the
consumer.  Assuming we can produce hydrogen in a more cost effective
way than electrolysis at some point in the future, it's a turn-key
business for gas stations, but mainly for the government.  Instead of
the customer needing less fuel and saving money that way, we'll still
need to refuel like we do now and that fuel can be taxed and priced
exactly as gasoline is now.  That will have the most minimal impact on
the 'economy' and the big oil companies can step right up and
capitalize on the opportunity to make about the same profits.
>
>
>
>-
>Do you Yahoo!?
>vote.yahoo.com - Register onlin

RE: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[Keith Addison]

a community level supplying their own needs and selling the excess.
Now, that's a doable plan.

Peggy


Bravo Peggy!

Keith



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Party of Citizens
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 2:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

Let's think big ... really big. What if we had a global energy plan,
paid
for by all nations so we could think in terms of trillions in spending?

One has to then wonder about the cost-benefit of  solar collectors at
Mercury, relaying solar-energy (by microwaves?) to Venus, then to Earth
and
on to Moonshine City, Mars and so on.

Z
http://www.geocities.com/partyofcitizens


- Original Message -
From: "robert harder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion


>
> The hydrogen economy is being pushed because it is favored by the
current
> oil companies, the cheapest source of hydrogen is oil and therefore




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RE: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[Peggy]

Let's think grassroots. Really down to earth.  Cooperative coalitions at
a community level supplying their own needs and selling the excess.
Now, that's a doable plan.

Peggy


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Party of Citizens
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 2:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

Let's think big ... really big. What if we had a global energy plan,
paid
for by all nations so we could think in terms of trillions in spending?

One has to then wonder about the cost-benefit of  solar collectors at
Mercury, relaying solar-energy (by microwaves?) to Venus, then to Earth
and
on to Moonshine City, Mars and so on.

Z
http://www.geocities.com/partyofcitizens


- Original Message - 
From: "robert harder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion


>
> The hydrogen economy is being pushed because it is favored by the
current
> oil companies, the cheapest source of hydrogen is oil and therefore
> switching to hydrogen will not reduce the use or profits of oil, but i
fear
> that large scale use of hydrogen that was not sourced from the
electrolysis
> of water (which is useless as energy source, only a method of energy
> storage) will lead to an increase in the total volume of water in
earths
> biosphere and water vapor in our atmosphere which I beleive will be
far
more
> apt to alter weather than our current problems of co2 and co
>
> >From: jeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight
conversion
> >Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:53:50 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >
> >
> >Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Hello again Donald
> >
> >
> >
> > >As an aside, I am puzzled as to why there is so much emphasis
being
> > >placed on the "Hydrogen Economy" at the moment,
> especially by the US
> > >government. Hydogen is just a way of storing and transporting
> energy,
> > >just as are biofuels. OK, I realise that fuel cells can
> theoretically
> > >deliver a greater whole-cycle efficiency than biofuels, but
it
> seems to
> > >me that a lot of money is being spent on something that
probably
> won't
> > >give us a cost-effective solution for at least 20 years -
given
> that
> > >there are still a large number of technical hurdles without
totally
> > >satisfactory solutions.
> >
> >As an big 'Oil Man' from texas, I think Bush likes the Hydrogen
idea
> because the power is still in his hands rather than the consumer.
Assuming
> we can produce hydrogen in a more cost effective way than electrolysis
at
> some point in the future, it's a turn-key business for gas stations,
but
> mainly for the government.  Instead of the customer needing less fuel
and
> saving money that way, we'll still need to refuel like we do now and
that
> fuel can be taxed and priced exactly as gasoline is now.  That will
have
the
> most minimal impact on the 'economy' and the big oil companies can
step
> right up and capitalize on the opportunity to make about the same
profits.
> >
> >
> >
> >-
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
> >___
> >Biofuel mailing list
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> >Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
> >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
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Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[Appal Energy]

Bob,

> I haven't done the
> calculations but it would not be difficult to determine the total water
> released from combustion of all fossil fuels.  I doubt if it is a
> significant issue.

Water vapor is a contributor to the greenhouse effect. A fossil-fueled
hydrogen economy could contribute a double punch to this problem, CO2 during
and post stripping phase and water vapor at the end use stage. That's rather
"significant."

As well, the entire concept of "insignificant" is a matter of subjectivity
and trivializes all things to a point of irrelevance - all too often the
intent -  no matter how invaluable something's contribution may be.. Those
who could care less or couldn't be bothered to care all too off-handedly
dismiss anything as insignificant, no matter the end result being
catastrophic or incremental towards a productive goal.

Nothing is "insignificant" and those who bandy the term about should be kept
under close scrutiny.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion


> Robert,  the hydrogen in oil will end up as water regardless.
> Combustion of hydrocarbons produces CO2 and H2O.  So whether you strip
> the hydrogen out of the fossil fuel and burn it or burn it while it is
> still part of the fossil fuel makes no difference.  I haven't done the
> calculations but it would not be difficult to determine the total water
> released from combustion of all fossil fuels.  I doubt if it is a
> significant issue.
>
> robert harder wrote:
>
> >
> > The hydrogen economy is being pushed because it is favored by the
> > current oil companies, the cheapest source of hydrogen is oil and
> > therefore switching to hydrogen will not reduce the use or profits of
> > oil, but i fear that large scale use of hydrogen that was not sourced
> > from the electrolysis of water (which is useless as energy source,
> > only a method of energy storage) will lead to an increase in the total
> > volume of water in earths biosphere and water vapor in our atmosphere
> > which I beleive will be far more apt to alter weather than our current
> > problems of co2 and co
> >
> > >From: jeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion
> > >Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:53:50 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >Hello again Donald
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >As an aside, I am puzzled as to why there is so much emphasis
> > being
> > > >placed on the "Hydrogen Economy" at the moment,
> > especially by the US
> > > >government. Hydogen is just a way of storing and transporting
> > energy,
> > > >just as are biofuels. OK, I realise that fuel cells can
> > theoretically
> > > >deliver a greater whole-cycle efficiency than biofuels, but
> > it seems to
> > > >me that a lot of money is being spent on something that
> > probably won't
> > > >give us a cost-effective solution for at least 20 years -
> > given that
> > > >there are still a large number of technical hurdles without
> > totally
> > > >satisfactory solutions.
> > >
> > >As an big 'Oil Man' from texas, I think Bush likes the Hydrogen
> > idea because the power is still in his hands rather than the
> > consumer.  Assuming we can produce hydrogen in a more cost effective
> > way than electrolysis at some point in the future, it's a turn-key
> > business for gas stations, but mainly for the government.  Instead of
> > the customer needing less fuel and saving money that way, we'll still
> > need to refuel like we do now and that fuel can be taxed and priced
> > exactly as gasoline is now.  That will have the most minimal impact on
> > the 'economy' and the big oil companies can step right up and
> > capitalize on the opportunity to make about the same profits.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >-
> > >Do you Yahoo!?
> > >vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
> > >___
> > >Biofuel mailing list
> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel
> > >
> > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> 

Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[bob allen]

Combustion of hydrocarbons produces CO2 and H2O.  So whether you strip 
the hydrogen out of the fossil fuel and burn it or burn it while it is 
still part of the fossil fuel makes no difference.  I haven't done the 
calculations but it would not be difficult to determine the total water 
released from combustion of all fossil fuels.  I doubt if it is a 
significant issue.  


robert harder wrote:



The hydrogen economy is being pushed because it is favored by the 
current oil companies, the cheapest source of hydrogen is oil and 
therefore switching to hydrogen will not reduce the use or profits of 
oil, but i fear that large scale use of hydrogen that was not sourced 
from the electrolysis of water (which is useless as energy source, 
only a method of energy storage) will lead to an increase in the total 
volume of water in earths biosphere and water vapor in our atmosphere 
which I beleive will be far more apt to alter weather than our current 
problems of co2 and co


>From: jeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:53:50 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
>Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hello again Donald
>
>
>
> >As an aside, I am puzzled as to why there is so much emphasis 
being
> >placed on the "Hydrogen Economy" at the moment, 
especially by the US
> >government. Hydogen is just a way of storing and transporting 
energy,
> >just as are biofuels. OK, I realise that fuel cells can 
theoretically
> >deliver a greater whole-cycle efficiency than biofuels, but 
it seems to
> >me that a lot of money is being spent on something that 
probably won't
> >give us a cost-effective solution for at least 20 years - 
given that
> >there are still a large number of technical hurdles without 
totally

> >satisfactory solutions.
>
>As an big 'Oil Man' from texas, I think Bush likes the Hydrogen 
idea because the power is still in his hands rather than the 
consumer.  Assuming we can produce hydrogen in a more cost effective 
way than electrolysis at some point in the future, it's a turn-key 
business for gas stations, but mainly for the government.  Instead of 
the customer needing less fuel and saving money that way, we'll still 
need to refuel like we do now and that fuel can be taxed and priced 
exactly as gasoline is now.  That will have the most minimal impact on 
the 'economy' and the big oil companies can step right up and 
capitalize on the opportunity to make about the same profits.

>
>
>
>-
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>vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
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Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[damiandolan]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi All at biofuels,

also consider direct methane fuel cells, 
being developed as smaller unit for vehicle applications without the 
storage/generation/impurities problems.
Methane brewed up from anerobic digestion of organic materials also provides 
localised fuel source.

On the consideration of re-newables, my opinion that this should be 
multi-pronged approach to utilise the available resource in particlular area, 
here in Ireland we have good wind generating possibilty and also good solar for 
direct water heating, as well as climate for growth of bio-mass for home 
heating.

Other advantage is that the use of multi-prong approach allows energy spread 
for seasonal variations, e.g. we are developing combined solar/biomass system, 
where we use as much solar heating as possible and top up with biomass boiler 
for district heating.

Good luck to all on biofuels group,
Keep spreading good news

dD



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Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[Party of Citizens]

Let's think big ... really big. What if we had a global energy plan, paid
for by all nations so we could think in terms of trillions in spending?

One has to then wonder about the cost-benefit of  solar collectors at
Mercury, relaying solar-energy (by microwaves?) to Venus, then to Earth and
on to Moonshine City, Mars and so on.

Z
http://www.geocities.com/partyofcitizens


- Original Message - 
From: "robert harder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion


>
> The hydrogen economy is being pushed because it is favored by the current
> oil companies, the cheapest source of hydrogen is oil and therefore
> switching to hydrogen will not reduce the use or profits of oil, but i
fear
> that large scale use of hydrogen that was not sourced from the
electrolysis
> of water (which is useless as energy source, only a method of energy
> storage) will lead to an increase in the total volume of water in earths
> biosphere and water vapor in our atmosphere which I beleive will be far
more
> apt to alter weather than our current problems of co2 and co
>
> >From: jeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion
> >Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:53:50 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >
> >
> >Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Hello again Donald
> >
> >
> >
> > >As an aside, I am puzzled as to why there is so much emphasis
being
> > >placed on the "Hydrogen Economy" at the moment,
> especially by the US
> > >government. Hydogen is just a way of storing and transporting
> energy,
> > >just as are biofuels. OK, I realise that fuel cells can
> theoretically
> > >deliver a greater whole-cycle efficiency than biofuels, but it
> seems to
> > >me that a lot of money is being spent on something that probably
> won't
> > >give us a cost-effective solution for at least 20 years - given
> that
> > >there are still a large number of technical hurdles without
totally
> > >satisfactory solutions.
> >
> >As an big 'Oil Man' from texas, I think Bush likes the Hydrogen idea
> because the power is still in his hands rather than the consumer.
Assuming
> we can produce hydrogen in a more cost effective way than electrolysis at
> some point in the future, it's a turn-key business for gas stations, but
> mainly for the government.  Instead of the customer needing less fuel and
> saving money that way, we'll still need to refuel like we do now and that
> fuel can be taxed and priced exactly as gasoline is now.  That will have
the
> most minimal impact on the 'economy' and the big oil companies can step
> right up and capitalize on the opportunity to make about the same profits.
> >
> >
> >
> >-
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> >
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> >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
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Re: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[Jonathan Flynn]

yeah, efficiency versus cost. It really is all about the economy, environment 
be damned, when we want energy. Another thing to remember is that hydrogen is 
the transport molecule for energy, not carbon. So going directly from wind or 
sun to electricity or energy is wicked efficient. That's right, I said wicked. 
Right now we nd to focus on fuels that work in the present 
infrastructure, keep talking about and using biodiesel/other mid/high 
distillates. And conservation. And less stuff in our lives. And cogeneration. 
And responsibility. And technology transfer, especially to china/india. We are 
a microbe on a flea on that elephant. Would be nice to kick some butt now 
before the lights go out...
Jonathan

From: Patrick Hayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 2004/09/18 Sat PM 12:39:10 CDT
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion


Regarding efficiency: For solar hydrogen success, the
overall cost is 
more important than efficiency. Depending on one's
approach, a more 
efficient system can be significantly more expensive.

For an interesting way of producing hydrogen from
solar energy that 
doesn't get a lot of attention yet, check out the
Solar Hydrogen Energy 
Corporation, at www.sheclabs.com.

Regarding spending resources on solar generated
hydrogen research and 
development versus promoting the use of biofuels: My
belief is that both 
should be done heartily. We probably should not yet
put all our eggs in 
a hydrogen basket yet, but it is wise to explore and
continually attempt 
to innovate and develop many different potential
solutions to our 
emissions problems.

Also I would like to remind folks that hydrogen
doesn't need a fuel cell 
to be used. Internal combustion engines in cars on the
road today can be 
modified to burn hydrogen, and I would guess the new
hybrid vehicles 
like the Toyota Prius and the hybrid Honda Civic could also.



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Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[robert harder]

The hydrogen economy is being pushed because it is favored by the current 
oil companies, the cheapest source of hydrogen is oil and therefore 
switching to hydrogen will not reduce the use or profits of oil, but i fear 
that large scale use of hydrogen that was not sourced from the electrolysis 
of water (which is useless as energy source, only a method of energy 
storage) will lead to an increase in the total volume of water in earths 
biosphere and water vapor in our atmosphere which I beleive will be far more 
apt to alter weather than our current problems of co2 and co


>From: jeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:53:50 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
>Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hello again Donald
>
>
>
> >As an aside, I am puzzled as to why there is so much emphasis being
> >placed on the "Hydrogen Economy" at the moment, 
especially by the US
> >government. Hydogen is just a way of storing and transporting 
energy,
> >just as are biofuels. OK, I realise that fuel cells can 
theoretically
> >deliver a greater whole-cycle efficiency than biofuels, but it 
seems to
> >me that a lot of money is being spent on something that probably 
won't
> >give us a cost-effective solution for at least 20 years - given 
that

> >there are still a large number of technical hurdles without totally
> >satisfactory solutions.
>
>As an big 'Oil Man' from texas, I think Bush likes the Hydrogen idea 
because the power is still in his hands rather than the consumer.  Assuming 
we can produce hydrogen in a more cost effective way than electrolysis at 
some point in the future, it's a turn-key business for gas stations, but 
mainly for the government.  Instead of the customer needing less fuel and 
saving money that way, we'll still need to refuel like we do now and that 
fuel can be taxed and priced exactly as gasoline is now.  That will have the 
most minimal impact on the 'economy' and the big oil companies can step 
right up and capitalize on the opportunity to make about the same profits.

>
>
>
>-
>Do you Yahoo!?
>vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
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>
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>http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

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Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[balaji]

From: "balaji" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:37:02 +0530
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

Hello Donald,

>- Original Message -
>From: "Donald Allwright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 2:50 PM
>Subject: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

> I have a question that some of you might be able to shed some light on.
>
> As well as having an interest in biofuels, I also have an interest in
> Third World development issues and other technologies, including Solar
> energy collection and storage. So when trying to find an 'energy
> solution' for a remote village for example, there are a number of
> possible options. Of course, you have to ask, "what problem are you
> looking to find a solution for?" For the purposes of this post, I will
> assume that we are trying to provide electricity to power
> refrigerators, lighting, miscellaneous equipment such as telephones and
> computers (even remote villages can have satellite connections to the
> internet these days!). This would be a light load and not include
> industrial use nor electrical heating/cooking.

> So I will propose two solutions, both of which are used in various
> places:

> 1) Grow an oil crop, use it to power a diesel generator
> 2) Install photovoltaic solar panels and use a battery system to store
> the energy overnight

You can also gasify biomass and use the gas for generating power
with gas engine or diesel generators. These plants can be configured from 20
kWe to 2
MWe or higher in multiple modules with improved efficiencies for larger
capacities.  In a recent exercise we did with UNIDO in Zambia, we discovered
that power cost (1 MW) in a remote location using high cost diesel in this
land locked country with no indigenous petroleum refinery was about US c 25,
while the power cost using gasification was about US c 6-8. The entire
biomass requirements could be sourced from the trimmings from the nearby
forest within a 10 km range.

You could also methanate it into biogas and generate power.
> Now I'm trying to get an understanding of the pros and cons of these
> two approaches, and which would be better for a particular location.
> The issues I have thought of so far are the following:

> Photovoltaics and batteries are expensive in terms of capital outlay,
> whereas biofuels are cheap to 'install'.

> Photovoltaic systems have a conversion efficiency of ~10% of the solar
> energy, whereas biofuels have a conversion efficiency of about 1%

I presume you have factored in the very low "natural" photosynthetic
efficiency of biomass conversion. But this does not have a direct economic
implication in terms of cost of power generated, unlike in PV systems where
the lower conversion efficiencies of a high per kW cost plant with limited
energy resource availability has a more direct economic impact.

> Photovoltaic systems require more specialist knowledge to maintain,
> whereas biofuels require less.

> Photovoltaics require low labour input once they are installed, whereas
> biofuels require planting, harvesting, processing etc..

But the flip side of the coin is that it generates more economic activity at
the rural level, improving the purchasing power of the community.

> Photovoltaic systems can store only small amounts of energy over short
> timescales, whereas you can store large quantities of oil for a long
> time

So can other biofuels.

> Photovoltaics make less sense when sunshine levels are highly
> unpredictable, whereas biofuel crops are not significantly affected by
> a few gloomy days

Quite true. Sweden meets more than 30% of its energy needs from biomass.

> Photovoltaics require less land to install than oil crops, because of
> their higher conversion efficiency.

The annual accretion of biomass globally is of the order of 25-35 (?)
billlion MT and represents a little appreciated but highly significant energy
resource. About 50% of the world population still relies on biomass for its
daily cooking and heating needs. All this is being done sustainably since,
despite the growing demand,
" The woods are lovely, dark and deep. And miles to go. . . ."
testifying to its sustainability.

> I realise that this is an oversimplification of the issues, and I'm
> trying to gain a deeper understanding of the secondary issues. So my
> specific questions are:

> 1) What are the implications of manufacturing Solar collectors,
> batteries, electronic control equipment and so forth in terms of energy
> use, toxic materials (e.g. lead in batteries), sustainability? How does
> this compare with manufacturing a diesel generating system?

You have raised very important lifecycle impact questions, an area where

Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[Steve Spence]

You are free to differ. Doesn't make you correct, though ;-)

- Original Message - 
From: "rb trans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion


> > say you have 100 kWh of electric from a generator,
> > and you charge a battery bank, that is more
> > efficient than taking the same 100 kWh,
> > electrolysing water into hydrogen, pressurizing a
> > tank, to feed a fuel cell. This is why hydrogen is
> > not commercially made by electrolysis, but from
> > natural gas, a fossil fuel. Fuel cells can not
> > exceed the efficiency of biofuels, becuase they are
> > not a fuel, just part of a storage "battery". 
> 
> I beg to differ.
> Assume an efficient, solar electricity installation
> (i.e. maybe 20% efficiency over 10 or 12 hours per
> day)
> in one of the western states that generates hydrogen
> via electrolysis.
> I'd think that's a hell of a lot more efficient per 
> square meter than growing soy or cocoanut or other
> crops for biodiesel which you can harvest only after a
> period of several months.
> 
> I can make up the max. H2 generated in such an
> experiment per year.
> Anyone has the "gallon of oil per acre" per year handy
> ?
> (and by the way I won't need any extra H2O to water
>  the solar dish :-)))
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
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Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[Patrick Hayes]

Regarding efficiency: For solar hydrogen success, the
overall cost is 
more important than efficiency. Depending on one's
approach, a more 
efficient system can be significantly more expensive.

For an interesting way of producing hydrogen from
solar energy that 
doesn't get a lot of attention yet, check out the
Solar Hydrogen Energy 
Corporation, at www.sheclabs.com.

Regarding spending resources on solar generated
hydrogen research and 
development versus promoting the use of biofuels: My
belief is that both 
should be done heartily. We probably should not yet
put all our eggs in 
a hydrogen basket yet, but it is wise to explore and
continually attempt 
to innovate and develop many different potential
solutions to our 
emissions problems.

Also I would like to remind folks that hydrogen
doesn't need a fuel cell 
to be used. Internal combustion engines in cars on the
road today can be 
modified to burn hydrogen, and I would guess the new
hybrid vehicles 
like the Toyota Prius and the hybrid Honda Civic could also.



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Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[rb trans]

> say you have 100 kWh of electric from a generator,
> and you charge a battery bank, that is more
> efficient than taking the same 100 kWh,
> electrolysing water into hydrogen, pressurizing a
> tank, to feed a fuel cell. This is why hydrogen is
> not commercially made by electrolysis, but from
> natural gas, a fossil fuel. Fuel cells can not
> exceed the efficiency of biofuels, becuase they are
> not a fuel, just part of a storage "battery". 

I beg to differ.
Assume an efficient, solar electricity installation
(i.e. maybe 20% efficiency over 10 or 12 hours per
day)
in one of the western states that generates hydrogen
via electrolysis.
I'd think that's a hell of a lot more efficient per 
square meter than growing soy or cocoanut or other
crops for biodiesel which you can harvest only after a
period of several months.

I can make up the max. H2 generated in such an
experiment per year.
Anyone has the "gallon of oil per acre" per year handy
?
(and by the way I won't need any extra H2O to water
 the solar dish :-)))

Rainer


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Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[jeff]

Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello again Donald



>As an aside, I am puzzled as to why there is so much emphasis being
>placed on the "Hydrogen Economy" at the moment, especially by the US
>government. Hydogen is just a way of storing and transporting energy,
>just as are biofuels. OK, I realise that fuel cells can theoretically
>deliver a greater whole-cycle efficiency than biofuels, but it seems to
>me that a lot of money is being spent on something that probably won't
>give us a cost-effective solution for at least 20 years - given that
>there are still a large number of technical hurdles without totally
>satisfactory solutions. 

As an big 'Oil Man' from texas, I think Bush likes the Hydrogen idea because 
the power is still in his hands rather than the consumer.  Assuming we can 
produce hydrogen in a more cost effective way than electrolysis at some point 
in the future, it's a turn-key business for gas stations, but mainly for the 
government.  Instead of the customer needing less fuel and saving money that 
way, we'll still need to refuel like we do now and that fuel can be taxed and 
priced exactly as gasoline is now.  That will have the most minimal impact on 
the 'economy' and the big oil companies can step right up and capitalize on the 
opportunity to make about the same profits.  



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Re: [biofuel] Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion

[sspence]

A fuel cell is a "battery". Where lead acid batteries require electricity to 
charge them, fuel cells require a fuel to "charge" them. Now, let's say you 
have 100 kWh of electric from a generator, and you charge a battery bank, that 
is more efficient than taking the same 100 kWh, electrolysing water into 
hydrogen, pressurizing a tank, to feed a fuel cell. This is why hydrogen is not 
commercially made by electrolysis, but from natural gas, a fossil fuel. Fuel 
cells can not exceed the efficiency of biofuels, becuase they are not a fuel, 
just part of a storage "battery". 

So the statement should read "Fuels cells can theoreticaly deliver greater 
whole-sysle efficiency than batteries". The only way a fuel cell can compete 
with a biofueled internal combustion engine is when the fuel cell is fueled 
with a biofuel.

www.green-trust.org

= = = Original message = = =

As an aside, I am puzzled as to why there is so much emphasis being
placed on the "Hydrogen Economy" at the moment, especially by the US
government. Hydogen is just a way of storing and transporting energy,
just as are biofuels. OK, I realise that fuel cells can theoretically
deliver a greater whole-cycle efficiency than biofuels, but it seems to
me that a lot of money is being spent on something that probably won't
give us a cost-effective solution for at least 20 years - given that
there are still a large number of technical hurdles without totally
satisfactory solutions. On the other hand, biofuel technology is pretty
mature - most of it is at least 100 years old - and is available now.
Biofuels could be used on a very wide scale without making any major
changes to the infrastructure, such as the supply chain. While it does
make sense to fund research into technology that one day may be even
better, it seems that this is a poor excuse for not promoting
technologies that can provide real benefits today. I do sometimes
wonder whether it's more about 'image' - in other words, talking about
Hydrogen is trendy, in a way that for example biodiesel is not.

Donald

 --- Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> Donald (and all), I certainly don't have all the answers (maybe
> none), but it is a 
> complex topic, and I can certainly muddy the waters a bit more. 
> Comments inserted 
> below.
> 
> Donald Allwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I have a question that some of you might be able to shed some light
> on.
> > 
> > As well as having an interest in biofuels, I also have an interest
> in
> > Third World development issues and other technologies, including
> Solar
> > energy collection and storage. So when trying to find an 'energy
> > solution' for a remote village for example, there are a number of
> > possible options. Of course, you have to ask, "what problem are you
> > looking to find a solution for?" For the purposes of this post, I
> will
> > assume that we are trying to provide electricity to power
> > refrigerators, lighting, miscellaneous equipment such as telephones
> and
> > computers (even remote villages can have satellite connections to
> the
> > internet these days!). This would be a light load and not include
> > industrial use nor electrical heating/cooking.
> 
> Let's think about the loads a bit, particularly refrigeration.  In
> this case, we 
> don't really need to store electricity, but "coolth".  So one
> approach would be to 
> develop a solar-powered icebox.  Have the PV panels run a
> conventional 
> refrigeration unit when the sun is shining to make ice in the top of
> the "icebox".  
> A sensor can control a fan to pull air through the ice into the
> refrigerator when 
> required to maintain temperature.  Some electricity is still required
> for the fan 
> (the sensor could be a simple bimetallic switch), but much less than
> for the 
> compressor, so that would reduce electrical storage requirements
> significantly.
> > 
> > So I will propose two solutions, both of which are used in various
> > places:
> > 
> > 1) Grow an oil crop, use it to power a diesel generator
> > 2) Install photovoltaic solar panels and use a battery system to
> store
> > the energy overnight
> > 
> > Now I'm trying to get an understanding of the pros and cons of
> these
> > two approaches, and which would be better for a particular
> location.
> > The issues I have thought of so far are the following:
> > --
> > Photovoltaics and batteries are expensive in terms of capital
> outlay,
> > whereas biofuels are cheap to 'install'.
> > 
> > Photovoltaic systems have a conversion efficiency of ~10% of the
> solar
> > energy, whereas biofuels have a conversion efficiency of about 1%
> > 
> > Photovoltaic systems require more specialist knowledge to maintain,
> > whereas biofuels require less.
> > 
> > Photovoltaics require low labour input once they are installed,
> whereas
> > biofuels require planting, harvesting, processing etc..
> > 
> > Photovoltaic systems can store only small amounts of energy over
> short
> > timescales, wherea