Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Paul, I think that is even older records of the idea in the Greek mythology and for sure in the history of the Roman empire. I doubt that it was human bombs in this cases, since it was only the Chinese that had the capacity to do that in that time and I do not know enough about their history. . Human sacrifice of life for the best of the survivors is much older than that, but only documented by archeological findings. This question is interesting, but it was used as debunking a statement that I did in conjunction with the Israel - Palestine question. It was also why I started to see this particular discussion as a conversacion de Besugos. As an argument, it only mirrored the lack of historical knowledge of the person who said it, not uncommon in US. . During the Israel - Palestine conflict it was however not started to be in general practise until a couple of years ago. Hakan At 10:58 AM 3/21/2003 +1100, you wrote: On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 04:13 am, Greg and April wrote: Suicide bomber is a very new phenomena Not realy. It goes back to at least WW2. I believe this idea is older than that... atleast back to the 6th century??? Assasins... -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Josh: I must inform you that your hope for 100% conformity will not occur. This is a situation that doesn't make me unhappy. Mike C Josh Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) - Original Message - From: John Hayes To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Tricia Liu wrote: The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports the Iraqi war! Can we have a poll in this group? So we can see how many members think the war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? Set it up at Journeyforever website? Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll to conclude that the majority of list readers are against this war? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
I knew it went back farther than WW2, just couldn't find a reference. Do you have some I can check out? Greg H. - Original Message - From: paul van den bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 16:58 Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 04:13 am, Greg and April wrote: Suicide bomber is a very new phenomena Not realy. It goes back to at least WW2. I believe this idea is older than that... atleast back to the 6th century??? Assasins... -- Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Keith: I listened to an interview on Tom Valentine's radio show discuss the plant which was brought to Missouri. It was years ago, and I cannot give the nane of the man. It was at least an hour of discussion about the history, quality of fuel, cost, and other aspects. Ed B - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! At the time of the Second World War, German technology was producing gasoline from coal. An entire factory was brought from Germany, and assembled in Missouri. It made gasoline at a cost of 5 cents a gallon. It was dismantled and the technology was hidden away. Ed B Not so. This is what happened - posted here previously by a list member: One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new, alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest synthetic fuels producer globally. Best wishes Keith Yes, hydrogen from coal is the only fossil alternative. It will take you 20 to 30 years to get to this. Bush loves this, since he probably been briefed about the seriousness of today's situation. He does not explain it to the American people, like both Carter and Nixon tried to do. Things have not got better since then, on the contrary. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
John E Hayes III wrote: snip Some other facts to consider: US population as percentage of total of World Population: 4.6% US GNP as a as percentage of total of World GNP: 29% Percentage of UN dues paid by the US: 25% My point being that you can argue it either way based on population or economic wealth but it is unfair to only pick the statistic that supports your agenda. John On a per capita basis, the US uses 5.4 times more than its fair share of the world's energy, the EU 2.6 times its share, Germany 2.6 times its share, France 2.8 times its share, Japan 2.7 times its share, Australia 3.8 times its share. India uses one-fifth of its fair share, Sudan less than one-fifth its share, Nepal less than one-fifth its share. The average American uses twice as much energy as the average European or Japanese and 155 times as much as the average Nepalese. In terms of production, Americans produce more per head than Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use twice as much energy as the Japanese to do it. Also please note that the US accounts for more than 36% of global greenhouse gas emissions. (Your current administration's response to this is another issue that's caused worldwide unpopularity.) Australia, one of the few US allies in its anti-Kyoto Protocol stance, is even more energy-inefficient than the US - higher per capita energy use/per capita production - and is a major exporter of coal. Some other statistics list members have posted: Table 1. Top BTU Consumption by Country - 1995. Per Capita BTUs (Millions) India 11 Brazil25 China27 Mexico 57 Japan 142 UK 148 Australia 219 Canada 303 USA 327 http://www.ecoworld.com/Articles/May23_BTU_GNP.cfm World Per Capita Total Primary Energy Consumption, 1980-1999 (Million Btu) Location1999 ÷÷÷ Africa 15 Far East and Oceania 29 Central and South America 50 Middle East 101 Eastern Europe and Former U.S.S.R.125 Western Europe 148 North America289 ÷÷÷ World Total Per Capita 64 MH wrote: In the article below it mentioned, Europeans routinely use 30 percent less energy per unit of gross national product than Americans do. More from this ref: Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute has gained a worldwide reputation selling the idea that it is cheaper to save energy than to buy it. In response to his persuasive presentations about the returns on investment in improved efficiency often being 30 percent or more a year, many companies have invested heavily in reducing their energy use. But even with the efficiency gains since the oil price hikes of the 1970s, Lovins believes that U.S. businesses could still cut their electric utility bills in half while making money doing so. Europe's example provides ample proof of the latent energy savings potential in the United States. Europeans routinely use 30 percent less energy per unit of gross national product than Americans do. The United States could easily meet its requirements for carbon reduction under the Kyoto Protocol by 2010 simply by moving to European efficiency levels, and these are far below the efficiency levels that are possible using state-of-the-art technologies. See: http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5027 And so on. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
- Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 14:41 Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! No what I'm describing is a system that breaks down, and leaves the victim out in the cold, all in the name of fairness ( for the criminal ). After a while, the victims get tired of being victims, and take matters into their own hands, just out of a sense of survival. We do not have this in Europe. Unfortanly some people here in the US make their living, by finding the loopholes in which guilty people go free, to many times it the leter of the law rather than the spirit of the law that is applied. Things must have changed in the US, since last time I was there. I am sorry if my impressions are not up to date. I don't know when the last time you was here, but, even in the last 2 years, allot has changed. America is allot more paranoid and fearful, and one goes with the other. In the last 30 years certain members of congress in order to remain in power have made people more reliant on the government for their everyday needs ( you already know that part ), and you probably already know that job specialization, has also contributed to this. What you may not know and allot of Americans don't either and are just finding out is that the US Supreme Court has ruled that police have no legal responsibility to protect citizens of the US. So out of fear, people are starting to take matters into their own hands, and this translates to an extent to foreign policy. You have a serious problem in US, but I don't think that it is solved by killing Iraqis. I didn't say it was the only reasion for the foreign policy, but, a factor. I have a problem with people who sign a treaty ( the one signed at the end of the gulf war ) and then go back on it, I have a problem with a country that uses prision and tourture to get its athletes to win Olympic medals, and one that kidnaps forgein nationals so that the son of the leader can have rape them. 16 vetoes out of how many resolutions ? I lost track around the 65th. When have the Palestinians tried peace? I know that Israel tried a number of times only to have a Palestinian suicide bomber kills several Israelis. For UN standards it is a lot of vetoes. Not realy, look at the old USSR history of vetoes for any of it's friends. Suicide bomber is a very new phenomena Not realy. It goes back to at least WW2. and has nothing to do with the reasons for the vetoes. The appearances of suicide bombers could maybe be linked as a part of the effects of the vetoes. I doubt it, they again they go back to at least WW2, before the time of the UN. You must be quite desperate to commit suicide. More likely brainwashed. It is human beings we are talking about. Why do you think they are so desperate? Again more likely brainwashed rather than desperate. Think about it, to the bomber it is not committing suicide, but, from their standpoint fighting a war, or combat, in which he/she knows/believes they are going to be rewarded for killing their enemies. The fact that they will loss their mortal body, does not bother them, because they will be basking in the rewards of being in the arms of Allah ( for causing the death in many cases of women, children and/or others that did nothing to them ). This is a lot different than a solder trying to stay alive on a battlefield, who would just as soon see the innocent live, and many times lives with guilt, when they do not. Time and again, Palestinians, have pledged the destruction of Israel and Israelis, are the Israelis suppose to sit down and let it happen, even when they have tried to live in peace with them? I belive you, it is difficult with so much diplomatic immunity. Would you want this in your country? I doubt it. They are humans, that don't make human mistakes :-P ? Sorry I don't know of one place that has police that are not infallible. Even though it may not seem like it, when police exceed the law, they are still held accountable. So the war with Iraq, without UN approval, is a human mistake? In a way I think that you can say just that, or more likely a series of mistakes, by a lot of people, starting with Saddam, thinking that he could get away with going into Kuwait. Continuing ( as not a few people think ) with the coalalition forces, not continuing until in Baghdad. Go on with Bush 1 ( and Clinton ) keeping the preasure on for Saddam to honor the peace treaty. Bush 1 for giving many Iraqies the idea to over throw Saddam, then not doing anything ( even indirectly ) to assist them when Saddam finaly got things organised, and went after the rebals. The UN for not having the guts to stand up to Saddam with the first round of disarmament teams, and Saddam for thinking that he would get away with his games
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Hi Ed Well then, I guess both things happened, probably closely associated. And both fell victim to the benevolance and goodwill to all mankind of Big Oil. It could have been one of the three plants the American energy technologist tried to get going Anyway, the Sasol plant in South Africa is still going strong. They make quality fuel from low-grade brown coal which won't even burn. There are massive amounts of that stuff lying around. This and other things are seldom taken into account when people talk of Hubbert's Peak, the end of oil, die-off, etc. See: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=11083list=biofuelrelated=1 regards Keith Keith: I listened to an interview on Tom Valentine's radio show discuss the plant which was brought to Missouri. It was years ago, and I cannot give the nane of the man. It was at least an hour of discussion about the history, quality of fuel, cost, and other aspects. Ed B - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! At the time of the Second World War, German technology was producing gasoline from coal. An entire factory was brought from Germany, and assembled in Missouri. It made gasoline at a cost of 5 cents a gallon. It was dismantled and the technology was hidden away. Ed B Not so. This is what happened - posted here previously by a list member: One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new, alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest synthetic fuels producer globally. Best wishes Keith Yes, hydrogen from coal is the only fossil alternative. It will take you 20 to 30 years to get to this. Bush loves this, since he probably been briefed about the seriousness of today's situation. He does not explain it to the American people, like both Carter and Nixon tried to do. Things have not got better since then, on the contrary. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
This Sasol plant in South Africa sounds interesting. Any connection to the German technology? We have in Canada, a massive store of petroleum in the Athabasca Tar Sands. Estimates are that it is 400 times (or was it 4,000) times the known regular world oil reserves. It is oil soaked shale, costly to extract. It appears the death of investments in extraction was recently effected by the idiot government signing the Kyoto protocal. Ed B - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Hi Ed Well then, I guess both things happened, probably closely associated. And both fell victim to the benevolance and goodwill to all mankind of Big Oil. It could have been one of the three plants the American energy technologist tried to get going Anyway, the Sasol plant in South Africa is still going strong. They make quality fuel from low-grade brown coal which won't even burn. There are massive amounts of that stuff lying around. This and other things are seldom taken into account when people talk of Hubbert's Peak, the end of oil, die-off, etc. See: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=11083list=biofuelrelated=1 regards Keith Keith: I listened to an interview on Tom Valentine's radio show discuss the plant which was brought to Missouri. It was years ago, and I cannot give the nane of the man. It was at least an hour of discussion about the history, quality of fuel, cost, and other aspects. Ed B - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! At the time of the Second World War, German technology was producing gasoline from coal. An entire factory was brought from Germany, and assembled in Missouri. It made gasoline at a cost of 5 cents a gallon. It was dismantled and the technology was hidden away. Ed B Not so. This is what happened - posted here previously by a list member: One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new, alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest synthetic fuels producer globally. Best wishes Keith Yes, hydrogen from coal is the only fossil alternative. It will take you 20 to 30 years to get to this. Bush loves this, since he probably been briefed about the seriousness of today's situation. He does not explain it to the American people, like both Carter and Nixon tried to do. Things have not got better since then, on the contrary. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Greg H., Today is a very sad day, when one of the pillars of world peace is violated. I am tired and you have to excuse me, if I do not want to continue with this discusion de Besugos, as the Spanish would call it. One day when you feel for it, please try to imagine the situation of a Palestinian, who under duress of war fled from his home in Israel. When the war was over and Israel occupied the territory where your refugee camp was located, you were denied the right to return back home by force. Continue then to think of all other human right you and your family have been denied for more than 35 years and that you have seen your children and grand children growing up in a ghetto, without availability to education or a future. You have seen your children and grand children develop hate and disparity, as more natural feelings than love and compassion. You have been suppressed and denied normal human rights for 35 years and your children and grand children does not know what freedom is. You have seen your family and friends die as collateral damage, when throwing stones at the soldiers who occupies your refugee camp. Until you try to go through this thought process, I will close this discussion as meaningless. I do not have to ask you to put yourself in the situation of an Israeli, who lives at a constant fear that what he was party of creating, will come back and hunt him. It is a very serious and difficult situation and have to be approached accordingly, with respect and understanding for both parties. Now we can go back and look at the artificial TV entertainment that US call operation ??? , because it is a very expensive show that cost human lives for each minute we look at it. Or maybe more important for the producers, a lot of US $. It is a big investment, but I am sure that it will make oil profits at the box office. Hakan At 10:13 AM 3/20/2003 -0700, you wrote: No what I'm describing is a system that breaks down, and leaves the victim out in the cold, all in the name of fairness ( for the criminal ). After a while, the victims get tired of being victims, and take matters into their own hands, just out of a sense of survival. We do not have this in Europe. Unfortanly some people here in the US make their living, by finding the loopholes in which guilty people go free, to many times it the leter of the law rather than the spirit of the law that is applied. Things must have changed in the US, since last time I was there. I am sorry if my impressions are not up to date. I don't know when the last time you was here, but, even in the last 2 years, allot has changed. America is allot more paranoid and fearful, and one goes with the other. In the last 30 years certain members of congress in order to remain in power have made people more reliant on the government for their everyday needs ( you already know that part ), and you probably already know that job specialization, has also contributed to this. What you may not know and allot of Americans don't either and are just finding out is that the US Supreme Court has ruled that police have no legal responsibility to protect citizens of the US. So out of fear, people are starting to take matters into their own hands, and this translates to an extent to foreign policy. You have a serious problem in US, but I don't think that it is solved by killing Iraqis. I didn't say it was the only reasion for the foreign policy, but, a factor. I have a problem with people who sign a treaty ( the one signed at the end of the gulf war ) and then go back on it, I have a problem with a country that uses prision and tourture to get its athletes to win Olympic medals, and one that kidnaps forgein nationals so that the son of the leader can have rape them. 16 vetoes out of how many resolutions ? I lost track around the 65th. When have the Palestinians tried peace? I know that Israel tried a number of times only to have a Palestinian suicide bomber kills several Israelis. For UN standards it is a lot of vetoes. Not realy, look at the old USSR history of vetoes for any of it's friends. Suicide bomber is a very new phenomena Not realy. It goes back to at least WW2. and has nothing to do with the reasons for the vetoes. The appearances of suicide bombers could maybe be linked as a part of the effects of the vetoes. I doubt it, they again they go back to at least WW2, before the time of the UN. You must be quite desperate to commit suicide. More likely brainwashed. It is human beings we are talking about. Why do you think they are so desperate? Again more likely brainwashed rather than desperate. Think about it, to the bomber it is not committing suicide, but, from their standpoint fighting a war, or combat, in which he/she knows/believes they are going to be rewarded for killing their enemies. The fact that they will loss their mortal body, does not bother
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
- Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 13:49 Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! One day when you feel for it, please try to imagine the situation of a Palestinian, who under duress of war fled from his home in Israel. When the war was over and Israel occupied the territory where your refugee camp was located, you were denied the right to return back home by force. Continue then to think of all other human right you and your family have been denied for more than 35 years and that you have seen your children and grand children growing up in a ghetto, without availability to education or a future. You have seen your children and grand children develop hate and disparity, as more natural feelings than love and compassion. You have been suppressed and denied normal human rights for 35 years and your children and grand children does not know what freedom is. You have seen your family and friends die as collateral damage, when throwing stones at the soldiers who occupies your refugee camp. Until you try to go through this thought process, I will close this discussion as meaningless. I do not have to ask you to put yourself in the situation of an Israeli, who lives at a constant fear that what he was party of creating, will come back and hunt him. I have tried, to think it through. I keep coming back to the fact if the other side offers peace, and someone on my side screws it up in the name of doing it for me, and causes more problems for me, who should I blame, the other side or my side? Should I bide my time, not make things worse and try to make things better slowly, or should I try go out and kill someone that had nothing to do with why I am in the position I am. It is a very serious and difficult situation and have to be approached accordingly, with respect and understanding for both parties. Your right, I see parallels in the UK and the IRA, but, it looks like they are well on the way to peace, because, both sides got their act together, not just one, but, in Israel, from every thing I have seen, it seems that one side has tried more than the other side, in fact one of them does not want the other to survive at all let alone in peace. I have a very, very hard time getting past that, and if you can help all the better. It's one thing to live in peace, but, another to live in a situation were you have to repress a people in just order to survive. What is better, repress someone or your own death as a people? Both are bad. I doubt that I have to tell you how happy I was when I heard that the Palestinians were finally talking to the Israelis, and peace was announced, and how disappointed I was to hear that a suicide bomber blew that peace agrement to hell ( pun intended ). Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Greg H., If you see any parallels with Northern Ireland, you have managed with something that I never heard someone do before. Please read and learn more about both situations and then try to think again. Or do you really think that they have refugee camps in Northern Ireland and that any side have expropriated the other ones property and refuse to hand it back and instead force you to spend your life in a refugee camp. Do not try to bring this up again with me, without better knowledge of what we are talking about. Maybe you should visit Israel, Palestine, Ireland and Northern Ireland also, it helps to have met the people that you have so strong opinions about and see for yourself how they live. You will discover that they are people with dreams and other ambitions in life, similar to ours. Hakan At 03:00 PM 3/20/2003 -0700, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 13:49 Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! One day when you feel for it, please try to imagine the situation of a Palestinian, who under duress of war fled from his home in Israel. When the war was over and Israel occupied the territory where your refugee camp was located, you were denied the right to return back home by force. Continue then to think of all other human right you and your family have been denied for more than 35 years and that you have seen your children and grand children growing up in a ghetto, without availability to education or a future. You have seen your children and grand children develop hate and disparity, as more natural feelings than love and compassion. You have been suppressed and denied normal human rights for 35 years and your children and grand children does not know what freedom is. You have seen your family and friends die as collateral damage, when throwing stones at the soldiers who occupies your refugee camp. Until you try to go through this thought process, I will close this discussion as meaningless. I do not have to ask you to put yourself in the situation of an Israeli, who lives at a constant fear that what he was party of creating, will come back and hunt him. I have tried, to think it through. I keep coming back to the fact if the other side offers peace, and someone on my side screws it up in the name of doing it for me, and causes more problems for me, who should I blame, the other side or my side? Should I bide my time, not make things worse and try to make things better slowly, or should I try go out and kill someone that had nothing to do with why I am in the position I am. It is a very serious and difficult situation and have to be approached accordingly, with respect and understanding for both parties. Your right, I see parallels in the UK and the IRA, but, it looks like they are well on the way to peace, because, both sides got their act together, not just one, but, in Israel, from every thing I have seen, it seems that one side has tried more than the other side, in fact one of them does not want the other to survive at all let alone in peace. I have a very, very hard time getting past that, and if you can help all the better. It's one thing to live in peace, but, another to live in a situation were you have to repress a people in just order to survive. What is better, repress someone or your own death as a people? Both are bad. I doubt that I have to tell you how happy I was when I heard that the Palestinians were finally talking to the Israelis, and peace was announced, and how disappointed I was to hear that a suicide bomber blew that peace agrement to hell ( pun intended ). Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 04:13 am, Greg and April wrote: Suicide bomber is a very new phenomena Not realy. It goes back to at least WW2. I believe this idea is older than that... atleast back to the 6th century??? Assasins... -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Lord Balfour: Zionism, be it right or wrong ... is of far profounder import than the desire and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land. http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00pp0 The Balfour Declaration November 2, 1917 During the First World War, British policy became gradually committed to the idea of establishing a Jewish home in Palestine (Eretz Yisrael). After discussions in the British Cabinet, and consultation with Zionist leaders, the decision was made known in the form of a letter by Arthur James Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild. The letter represents the first political recognition of Zionist aims by a Great Power. Foreign Office November 2nd, 1917 Dear Lord Rothschild, I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet. His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation. Yours sincerely, Arthur James Balfour Greg H., If you see any parallels with Northern Ireland, you have managed with something that I never heard someone do before. Please read and learn more about both situations and then try to think again. Or do you really think that they have refugee camps in Northern Ireland and that any side have expropriated the other ones property and refuse to hand it back and instead force you to spend your life in a refugee camp. Do not try to bring this up again with me, without better knowledge of what we are talking about. Maybe you should visit Israel, Palestine, Ireland and Northern Ireland also, it helps to have met the people that you have so strong opinions about and see for yourself how they live. You will discover that they are people with dreams and other ambitions in life, similar to ours. Hakan At 03:00 PM 3/20/2003 -0700, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 13:49 Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! One day when you feel for it, please try to imagine the situation of a Palestinian, who under duress of war fled from his home in Israel. When the war was over and Israel occupied the territory where your refugee camp was located, you were denied the right to return back home by force. Continue then to think of all other human right you and your family have been denied for more than 35 years and that you have seen your children and grand children growing up in a ghetto, without availability to education or a future. You have seen your children and grand children develop hate and disparity, as more natural feelings than love and compassion. You have been suppressed and denied normal human rights for 35 years and your children and grand children does not know what freedom is. You have seen your family and friends die as collateral damage, when throwing stones at the soldiers who occupies your refugee camp. Until you try to go through this thought process, I will close this discussion as meaningless. I do not have to ask you to put yourself in the situation of an Israeli, who lives at a constant fear that what he was party of creating, will come back and hunt him. I have tried, to think it through. I keep coming back to the fact if the other side offers peace, and someone on my side screws it up in the name of doing it for me, and causes more problems for me, who should I blame, the other side or my side? Should I bide my time, not make things worse and try to make things better slowly, or should I try go out and kill someone that had nothing to do with why I am in the position I am. It is a very serious and difficult situation and have to be approached accordingly, with respect and understanding for both parties. Your right, I see parallels in the UK and the IRA, but, it looks like they are well on the way to peace, because, both sides got their act together, not just one, but, in Israel, from every thing I have seen, it seems that one side has tried more than the other side, in fact one of them does not want the other to survive at all let alone in peace. I have a very, very hard time getting past that, and if you can help all the better. It's one thing to live in peace, but, another to live in a situation were you have to repress a people
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Keith: The problem my friend Buzz had was coming back to a country practically as an enemy. The majority saw the US defeated, the abandonment of Saigon, Mai Lai, etc, on tv and these returning soldiers really took the blame for the outcome. There were job shortages to face for those that needed something to get busy at. There was little to no debriefing for thousands, just landing, shedding their equipment and decom cold turkey. Lots of them had mental problems. Lots had sleep deprivation, having learned to light sleep. Many had drug problems because it was everywhere over there. That is why a lot of them were soon skid row bums. Buzz pulled out of it somehow by the grace of God. Lots didn't. Ed - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Well put. I am old enough to know a few veterans of Viet Nam. Some will not talk about what they did. Some do. After returning home, one went 'down the pike' to the lowest levels on drugs and alcohol. A streeter. Most of the guys he went with died over a few years, as the lowest dregs of society. Bums. Fogged in drugs and alcohol. That would have been his fate too, but somehow he survived. What I am getting at is, for the sake of society, and the young soldiers, war better be fully justified, or it will create burden that gets paid for again and again over time, with the twisting of minds of young soldiers. Ed B That seems to be what they think too, or some of them at least. http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15356 Veterans' Letter to the President By Veterans For Common Sense http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/ March 11, 2003 The following letter was signed by 1,000 war veterans and given to the President on March 10, 2003. snip Another veterans' group, Veterans Against Iraq War is organizing three days of protest in Washington D.C. from March 22 to March 24. http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php Others also think so: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15ItemID=3255 Support Our Troops by Michael Albert March 17, 2003 IRAQ If war comes even despite the historic, tenacious, and comprehensive opposition now raging across the planet, the U.S. government will proclaim triumphantly that everyone who isn't a traitor needs to rally around Washington to support our troops. Opponents of the war could opt for many possible replies. We could point out that our troops in Iraq are barely in danger at all because they are assaulting a tenth-rate opponent that has no serious means to defend Iraq much less to attack the world's sole superpower. We could point out that while perhaps a few hundred U.S. troops will die in this war, way over 50,000 U.S. citizens will die in the next 12 months due to workplace accidents and death by industry-caused diseases and automobile accidents (not to mention the impact of pollution and unsafe products). We could then query why this massive yearly blight on our population, roughly 15 times as devastating as 9/11, doesn't provoke a war on corporations' profit-seeking violations of their employees' and consumers' health and safety. Or we could point out that the lives of American troops are no more worthy of compassionate support than the lives of Iraqis, and that we didn't kill Hussein a million times over with our decade-long sanctions but we instead killed a million Iraqis once each -- with Hussein getting stronger as each new corpse was added to the carnage. And of course we could explain how unleashing a campaign to shock and awe a country is unjust and immoral, how it is an archetype example of the terrorism we say we are against. But for myself, I think that perhaps a different approach might work better, and so if war does come, I intend to reply to the demand to support our troops by saying that yes, I too support our troops. I will reply that I support our troops not having to kill people in Iraq. I support our troops not being ordered to assault defenseless populations, towns, farms, and the infrastructural sinews of life that sustain a whole country's citizenry. I support our troops not having to carry out orders from Commander in Chief George Bush and then having to live the rest of their lives wondering why they obeyed such a barbaric buffoon rather than resisting his illegitimate, immoral authority. And for the same reason, I support the Pope and the Dalai Lama going to Iraq in the place of our troops, as human shields and also to aid those Iraqis who have already suffered under our sanctions and bombs as well as under the violence of Hussein who was, of course, previously the recipient
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Dear Hakan, I agree with what you have said completely. But there is one area where see the same thing from a different perspective or in a different way. I see the current resumption of increased hostilities (war) as an extension of the war that started over 12 years ago and has been going on since then in a more limited way as the politicians tried to make the peace that Saddam had agreed to work. During all this time Iraq has continued to act belligerently (just ask any of the collision fighter pilots that have been fired on by their anti aircraft units and yes we fired back) this is not a new or preemptive situation it is, hopefully the conclusion of a long and sad war which could have been ended much earlier and many lives saved and much suffering could have been avoided. How long must that death and suffering continue in the name of a political solution? All out war is very bad, dragged out war may be even worse if you are the object of the suffering. Best regards, Vern Dear Vern, I can not imagine anything worse happening to me than if I unintentionally or intentionally would cause the death of a human being. I met many people who has been in that situation and still have to meet one who has not been scarred for life of that experience. This has been people involved in accidents as well as people who participated in wars. I am not talking about decision makers nor am I talking mentally disturbed people. I can accept that violence like war can be necessary to defend yourself from an attack. It is nothing that anyone can say that preemptive violence and killing can ever be a just cause.Ê If I do, I would accept many of the reasons for past wars as just wars, even if they were lost. President Bush and cohorts make me sick. Not only are they talking about wars like it would be a Hollywood adventure and childish games of who is blinking first, the are actually trying to defend their killing of people, based on that the other party might do something. Preemption is a very dangerous thing and if it is accepted as a doctrine, it will be used by others and this world will forever change. During the whole of US history it has been a strong rejection of preemption as an excuse for war. President Bush makes me sick and I am sad that I had to live to see the first American President who starts a preemptive war, this against a strong world opinion and with the lack of any democratic principles. If democratic principles are worth anything for Bush or Blair, they had to take in count the world opinion. Instead they cowardly redraw a resolution to gain a possibility to legally defend their attack on Iraq. I feel sorry for you, if you are not anti war. Any normal human being must be anti war, it is unbelievable to find any sane person that are pro war. Violence is the weapon of the weak. I picked up the following quote and it is very telling, No flag is large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people -- Howard Zinn But on the other hand collateral damage does not sound so bad or does it? Hakan At 11:12 PM 3/18/2003 +0300, you wrote: Well Keith, there so far are two list members who are not anti war, we have only tried to correct an incorrect assumption made by another list member. History will, after time, tell us all who is right and who is wrong. In the meantime we enjoy the right to have differing opinions. You continue to try to educate us with lots of information each day to try to make your point. It is your list and you can do as you will, I can not and would not try to stop you. It would be a pleasant change if you stopped the personal attacks against individuals who do not share your view of the world and who do you the courtesy of treating you with personal respect even when we may not think you are correct. It is a simple and courteous thing to do. Best regards, Vern Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [IMAGE] [IMAGE] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Dear Vern, I am glad that you are anti war also. Josh Cohen expressed a very large trust in the members of this list when he said that it was 100% anti war, something that I belive also. It is a large trust in the list members to say so, but if you say that they are not, then you will have an argument with our Shepherd. Do you really think that you could offend the list members without hearing from Keith? Even if it might be a misunderstanding created by the moment. My position is that what happens now is wrong and against some very fundamental principles. The fundamental principle of the wrong in preemptive wars are so important, that it overrides any other argument that can be made for the current illegal attack on Iraq by US and UK. It does not exclude that we can have discussions about the moment and wonder how and why Bush/Blair got it so wrong. It is also very sad that the US propaganda machine works so well as it does. It is a hidden agenda there and it is the US desperate need for securing oil supplies and the US/UK oil companies wish to participate in developing what might be the largest oil reserves on Earth. Bush/Blair are talking about the fund of oil money that will be used for the Iraqi people. They are taking us for idiots and hope that it will obscure how it is working. It is not a matter of escaping from paying for the oil, it is a matter of getting their hands on the only tap that is not yet fully open. By doing that they can control world market prices and continue to pillage the gold of Middle East at $25 a barrel. It cannot be a continuation of the war 12 years ago, since that was a liberation of Kuweit by UN and the mandate only covered this. That is why it stopped when the mandate was achieved. It was supported by a world opinion and was a response on an attack by Iraq. It had democratic decisions behind it and created and performed in a legal fashion. What scares me a lot is the parallels with what happened in Germany in the 1930's and I pointed that out in an early stage. I am no alone and MH gave us a very interesting link that goes along the same lines, Published on Sunday, March 16, 2003 by CommonDreams.org When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History by Thom Hartmann http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm Unfortunately the events are now running the course and we will probably only be able to discuss how we should get Bush/Blair to answer for their crimes in the future. To discuss how we should prosecute Saddam Hussein for his crimes will probably not be possible. Hakan At 10:42 AM 3/19/2003 +0300, you wrote: Dear Hakan, I agree with what you have said completely. But there is one area where see the same thing from a different perspective or in a different way. I see the current resumption of increased hostilities (war) as an extension of the war that started over 12 years ago and has been going on since then in a more limited way as the politicians tried to make the peace that Saddam had agreed to work. During all this time Iraq has continued to act belligerently (just ask any of the collision fighter pilots that have been fired on by their anti aircraft units and yes we fired back) this is not a new or preemptive situation it is, hopefully the conclusion of a long and sad war which could have been ended much earlier and many lives saved and much suffering could have been avoided. How long must that death and suffering continue in the name of a political solution? All out war is very bad, dragged out war may be even worse if you are the object of the suffering. Best regards, Vern Dear Vern, I can not imagine anything worse happening to me than if I unintentionally or intentionally would cause the death of a human being. I met many people who has been in that situation and still have to meet one who has not been scarred for life of that experience. This has been people involved in accidents as well as people who participated in wars. I am not talking about decision makers nor am I talking mentally disturbed people. I can accept that violence like war can be necessary to defend yourself from an attack. It is nothing that anyone can say that preemptive violence and killing can ever be a just cause. If I do, I would accept many of the reasons for past wars as just wars, even if they were lost. President Bush and cohorts make me sick. Not only are they talking about wars like it would be a Hollywood adventure and childish games of who is blinking first, the are actually trying to defend their killing of people, based on that the other party might do something. Preemption is a very dangerous thing and if it is accepted as a doctrine, it will be used by others and this world will forever change. During the whole of US history it has been a strong rejection of preemption as an excuse for war. President Bush makes me sick and I am sad that I had to live to see the first American President who starts a preemptive war, this against a strong world
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Dear Hakan, You wrote -- It cannot be a continuation of the war 12 years ago, since that was a liberation of Kuweit by UN and the mandate only covered this. That is why it stopped when the mandate was achieved. It was supported by a world opinion and was a response on an attack by Iraq. It had democratic decisions behind it and created and performed in a legal fashion. I think this is the central difference between the two sides of this issue. From my perspective if we can for the moment look at it like it were a court case and at the end of the last Gulf War the judge awarded a verdict of guilty against Saddam and ordered him to do certain things, which included disarming and he would suffer house arrest (UN sanctions) until the judge found him rehabilitated. Now some 12 years latter the judge has had enough of his games and finds him in contempt of court and orders him arrested and thrown in jail. It is still one case even after the property he took is returned to its owner. It is regrettable that the UN has not been able to function in a way that the security counsel members could vote for what is right instead of the self interest of their own country. That is politics and we do not seem to have any better solution. There are many other big problems in the world today that an effective UN could help with but as of now they have not been very effective on any of the major issues for the last 20 or so years at least from my limited view point. I do agree that there are some very concerning similarities between what is happing now and the events of the 1930's. It seems that you think oil at $ 25 is to low a price but it will be very much lower than that if the good people of this list have their way (and I hope they do) so that we find sustainable energy sources for the bulk of the worlds needs. If and when that happens the Middle East will have millions of people starving to death and the few that survive will only be able to return to the life style before oil and I think that will be very hard as many of the skills required are being lost as the current generation is not being trained to live other than in standard western style cities. I fear it will be a very big mess that will make this coming war look like a football game. Have a good day. Best regards, Vern Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: 03/19/03 02:20 PMSubject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS Please respond to INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! biofuel Dear Vern, I am glad that you are anti war also. Josh Cohen expressed a very large trust in the members of this list when he said that it was 100% anti war, something that I belive also. It is a large trust in the list members to say so, but if you say that they are not, then you will have an argument with our Shepherd. Do you really think that you could offend the list members without hearing from Keith? Even if it might be a misunderstanding created by the moment. My position is that what happens now is wrong and against some very fundamental principles. The fundamental principle of the wrong in preemptive wars are so important, that it overrides any other argument that can be made for the current illegal attack on Iraq by US and UK. It does not exclude that we can have discussions about the moment and wonder how and why Bush/Blair got it so wrong. It is also very sad that the US propaganda machine works so well as it does. It is a hidden agenda there and it is the US desperate need for securing oil supplies and the US/UK oil companies wish to participate in developing what might be the largest oil reserves on Earth. Bush/Blair are talking about the fund of oil money that will be used for the Iraqi people. They are taking us for idiots and hope that it will obscure how it is working. It is not a matter of escaping from paying for the oil, it is a matter of getting their hands on the only tap that is not yet
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Hi Keith. Either it was just a counter opinion, with no evidence, or it was a statement that Vern himself supports the war, which would be evidence, and it seems that's how both you and I took it. So he'd then be right in that the group's anti-war stance is not total. But, in my opinion, as stated, and that of the large majority of the group, Vern's support for the war is wrong, and can only be based on ignoring a great deal of information, much of which has been posted here. Your opinion is that Vern's support for the war is wrong. His opinion is that support is not wrong. It's also his opinion that a great deal of information posted on this group, from which anti war supporters base their opinion, is incorrect, fabricated, or inconclusive, and therefore should be ignored. You have stated that it's ok on this group to have different opinions. It appears you are telling him his opinion is wrong. This is not fact based information like how many grams of lye to add to methanol. All of this is based on shaky data and even shakier conclusions (both sides, pro and anti). So if it's correct to have differing opinions, is it correct to dismiss someone's opinion when it differs from yours? Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:11 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Ummm. I fail to see how Vern's remark merits this response. Andrew postulated that 100% of the group is against the war. Vern presented a datapoint that invalidates Andrew's assertion. Vern may be right or wrong in his support of this war, but in this post all he did was provide evidence that invalidated Andrew's overgeneralization. No more and no less. John Hello John all he did was provide evidence that invalidated Andrew's overgeneralization. No more and no less. Either it was just a counter opinion, with no evidence, or it was a statement that Vern himself supports the war, which would be evidence, and it seems that's how both you and I took it. So he'd then be right in that the group's anti-war stance is not total. But, in my opinion, as stated, and that of the large majority of the group, Vern's support for the war is wrong, and can only be based on ignoring a great deal of information, much of which has been posted here. Best Keith Addison Keith Addison wrote: Vern_Hendershott wrote: You would be wrong. And so would you be Vern, as you have been all along. You've been closing your eyesto a lot of things, eh? Keith i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) - Original Message - From: John Hayes To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Tricia Liu wrote: The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports the Iraqi war! Can we have a poll in this group? So we can see how many members think the war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? Set it up at Journeyforever website? Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll to conclude that the majority of list readers are against this war? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Dear Vern, We have a very important issue here and that is the court of law that you talk about. Any court of law acts as an arbitrator, within its given powers and respect for them by the parties. The honorable judge Lynch would have been proud of his nation, if he would have been alive to see what is going on. We have US that acts like the prosecution and the judge, because the appointed judge was not willing to render a verdict to the US liking and self interest. The damage done to the court UN by US is immense. $25 is a target price by US, where they can maintain the American way of life. $40 for a longer period will be very difficult and close to $60 the American society will start to deteriorate. This is not my analyses, it is based on several US data, so do not get angry with me. This also means that Iraqi suggestions of oil blockade, was an immediate threat to the US national security and probably the reason for the war. It is however not yet a recognized crime to refuse to deliver national treasures to the US, but in future it might be. One of the biggest unsolved crises that UN had to deal with, is the Israel - Palestine issues and US have through repeated vetoes sabotaged it. For many years now, US have also sabotaged UN by withholding its agreed member fees. I also want to tell you, if you do not really know, that US and UK are the industrial countries that contributes the lowest amounts per capita to UN and other help programs for the developing countries. Sweden is among the highest and I am in that sense proud of being a Swede. Let us together hope and work for a better world. We need many Keith Addison and Journey to Forever for it to work. This is one of the few occasions were I even think about possible benefits of cloning, but I am not sure that it will work, so forget it and do not start a discussion on cloning now, please. Hakan At 02:44 PM 3/19/2003 +0300, you wrote: Dear Hakan, You wrote -- It cannot be a continuation of the war 12 years ago, since that was a liberation of Kuweit by UN and the mandate only covered this. That is why it stopped when the mandate was achieved. It was supported by a world opinion and was a response on an attack by Iraq. It had democratic decisions behind it and created and performed in a legal fashion. I think this is the central difference between the two sides of this issue. From my perspective if we can for the moment look at it like it were a court case and at the end of the last Gulf War the judge awarded a verdict of guilty against Saddam and ordered him to do certain things, which included disarming and he would suffer house arrest (UN sanctions) until the judge found him rehabilitated. Now some 12 years latter the judge has had enough of his games and finds him in contempt of court and orders him arrested and thrown in jail. It is still one case even after the property he took is returned to its owner. It is regrettable that the UN has not been able to function in a way that the security counsel members could vote for what is right instead of the self interest of their own country. That is politics and we do not seem to have any better solution. There are many other big problems in the world today that an effective UN could help with but as of now they have not been very effective on any of the major issues for the last 20 or so years at least from my limited view point. I do agree that there are some very concerning similarities between what is happing now and the events of the 1930's. It seems that you think oil at $ 25 is to low a price but it will be very much lower than that if the good people of this list have their way (and I hope they do) so that we find sustainable energy sources for the bulk of the worlds needs. If and when that happens the Middle East will have millions of people starving to death and the few that survive will only be able to return to the life style before oil and I think that will be very hard as many of the skills required are being lost as the current generation is not being trained to live other than in standard western style cities. I fear it will be a very big mess that will make this coming war look like a football game. Have a good day. Best regards, Vern Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: 03/19/03 02:20 PMSubject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS Please respond to INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! biofuel Dear Vern, I am glad that you are anti war also. Josh Cohen expressed a very large trust in the members of this list when he said that it was 100% anti war, something that I belive also. It is a large trust in the list members to say so, but if you say that they are not, then you will have an argument with our
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Hakan Falk wrote: $25 is a target price by US, where they can maintain the American way of life. $40 for a longer period will be very difficult and close to $60 the American society will start to deteriorate. This is not my analyses, it is based on several US data, so do not get angry with me. Well, yes and no. On its face, such a statement is true as $60 a barrel would disrupt American life somewhat. However, such a malthusian reading of the situation ignores other forces and adjustments that could come into play. Texas, Pennsylvania, and Louisiana crude become economically viable once prices spike. Increased trucking costs would cause the cost of goods to rise, but it might also shift more freight back to the railroad. Increased cost at the gas pump would drive people away from SUVs and toward carpooling and smaller cars. Likewise, I'd bet that 3 billion pounds of surplus soybean oil the USDA has laying around would get turned into SMEs pretty damn fast. I also bet people would figure out how to do something with all that West Virginia and Wyoming coal. So anyway, distruption, yes. Deterioration, No. For many years now, US have also sabotaged UN by withholding its agreed member fees. I also want to tell you, if you do not really know, that US and UK are the industrial countries that contributes the lowest amounts per capita to UN and other help programs for the developing countries. Sweden is among the highest and I am in that sense proud of being a Swede. Yes, and the US pays 25% of the total UN budget as well as 30% of the peacekeeping budget. Nor does this include the billions of dollars the US donates in manpower and logistics to worldwide peacekeeping opperations for which other nations are routinely reimbursed. Do I think the US should pay its dues in full in a timely manner? Absolutely. But I also think it is disingenuous to ignore that the US is the largest contributor in absolute dollars. Some other facts to consider: US population as percentage of total of World Population: 4.6% US GNP as a as percentage of total of World GNP: 29% Percentage of UN dues paid by the US: 25% My point being that you can argue it either way based on population or economic wealth but it is unfair to only pick the statistic that supports your agenda. John Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
- Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 07:00 Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Dear Vern, We have a very important issue here and that is the court of law that you talk about. Any court of law acts as an arbitrator, within its given powers and respect for them by the parties. The honorable judge Lynch would have been proud of his nation, if he would have been alive to see what is going on. We have US that acts like the prosecution and the judge, because the appointed judge was not willing to render a verdict to the US liking and self interest.The damage done to the court UN by US is immense. I would say the apointed judge just failed to get his ass in gear untill it was to late, and now is blaming the sheriff for taking matters in to his own hands. One of the biggest unsolved crises that UN had to deal with, is the Israel - Palestine issues and US have through repeated vetoes sabotaged it. I'm still looking into this, but, it does not seem that it was US veto's alone, but, other factors as well. For many years now, US have also sabotaged UN by withholding its agreed member fees. And the UN is costing the US ( expecialy NY ) a lot of money, due to ambassadors and/or staff of member nations failing to uphold the laws of the land, and abusing their UN status. Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Hi Greg H, At 08:53 AM 3/19/2003 -0700, you wrote: Dear Vern, We have a very important issue here and that is the court of law that you talk about. Any court of law acts as an arbitrator, within its given powers and respect for them by the parties. The honorable judge Lynch would have been proud of his nation, if he would have been alive to see what is going on. We have US that acts like the prosecution and the judge, because the appointed judge was not willing to render a verdict to the US liking and self interest.The damage done to the court UN by US is immense. I would say the apointed judge just failed to get his ass in gear untill it was to late, and now is blaming the sheriff for taking matters in to his own hands. I assume that you are a great admirer of judge Lynch. In more civilized societies, we do not allow the police to take the justice in their own hands. We must have some different opinions on human rights, burden of proof and the right to a fair trial. What you are describing is a typical police state. Things must have changed in the US, since last time I was there. I am sorry if my impressions are not up to date. One of the biggest unsolved crises that UN had to deal with, is the Israel - Palestine issues and US have through repeated vetoes sabotaged it. I'm still looking into this, but, it does not seem that it was US veto's alone, but, other factors as well. I think that you will find around 16 vetoes, if I remember right. A veto is not necessary if it is other factors, but please go on looking. It is a sad reading and all of them are in favor of Israel, none in favor of the other party. This is the country that claims that they can make a fair road map to piece -:)) and deserves the respect for fairness. For many years now, US have also sabotaged UN by withholding its agreed member fees. And the UN is costing the US ( expecialy NY ) a lot of money, due to ambassadors and/or staff of member nations failing to uphold the laws of the land, and abusing their UN status. I think that we have an other culture crash here. Where I come from, we pay what we owe and in time. Apart of that, I think that NY do make a net benefit in several ways. I for one, would not mind if UN moved to a central European city or somewhere else than NY and US, it would be more appropriate. -:) Why should it be in a country where the police take the law in their own hands and where payments are not done in time? Hakan Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Hi Steve Hi Keith. Either it was just a counter opinion, with no evidence, or it was a statement that Vern himself supports the war, which would be evidence, and it seems that's how both you and I took it. So he'd then be right in that the group's anti-war stance is not total. But, in my opinion, as stated, and that of the large majority of the group, Vern's support for the war is wrong, and can only be based on ignoring a great deal of information, much of which has been posted here. Your opinion is that Vern's support for the war is wrong. That's right, that's what I told him, and John. His opinion is that support is not wrong. That's right too. It's also his opinion that a great deal of information posted on this group, from which anti war supporters base their opinion, is incorrect, fabricated, or inconclusive, and therefore should be ignored. That may be his opinion, though he hasn't said so. It's my opinion that the vast majority of the war party ignores the information before reading it - they read enough to label it as opposing their views, then they dismiss it without reading any further. It's rather widespread: I've posted this as an example a couple of times - did you read it, for instance? Did Vern? Conservative Media Don't Want To Hear From The 'Other Guy' http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7355 Anyway, the evidence for it here comes up again and again - war party supporters keep pushing arguments that have been dealt with thoroughly, and it's obvious they ignored that. That is the way of the ostrich. You have stated that it's ok on this group to have different opinions. Indeed it is - of course it is! Good grief! It appears you are telling him his opinion is wrong. Yes, yes. This is not fact based information like how many grams of lye to add to methanol. All of this is based on shaky data and even shakier conclusions (both sides, pro and anti). That's not so - well-referenced, well-reasoned, factual and coherent information has been provided on the one side, and very little on the other apart from opinions and denial. Even the news pieces simply avoid huge areas as if they simply don't exist. The anti- side has avoided nothing. Yes, that's my opinion of course - but if you wanted to argue with me about it you'd have a hard time countering all the evidence I'd provide to support it. But such an argument would be tiresome for everyone. So if it's correct to have differing opinions, is it correct to dismiss someone's opinion when it differs from yours? I didn't dismiss it, I said he was wrong. I didn't tell him to stop stating his views, nor give him some kind of ultimatum to change them or leave. Are you trying to say that welcoming divergent opinion here means that I have to agree with it all? How would I do that? - an impossibility. If I don't agree that it's right, I'll say so (or maybe not - usually not, in fact). Everyone here can and does do that, but you object to my doing it? Why? What exactly are you trying to say? If anyone wants support for my views, they'll get it. I can seldom say the same about them - and I really wish that wasn't so. But it is. Best Keith Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:11 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Ummm. I fail to see how Vern's remark merits this response. Andrew postulated that 100% of the group is against the war. Vern presented a datapoint that invalidates Andrew's assertion. Vern may be right or wrong in his support of this war, but in this post all he did was provide evidence that invalidated Andrew's overgeneralization. No more and no less. John Hello John all he did was provide evidence that invalidated Andrew's overgeneralization. No more and no less. Either it was just a counter opinion, with no evidence, or it was a statement that Vern himself supports the war, which would be evidence, and it seems that's how both you and I took it. So he'd then be right in that the group's anti-war stance is not total. But, in my opinion, as stated, and that of the large majority of the group, Vern's support for the war is wrong, and can only be based on ignoring a great deal of information, much of which has been posted here. Best Keith Addison Keith Addison wrote: Vern_Hendershott wrote: You would be wrong. And so would you be Vern, as you have been all along. You've been closing your eyesto a lot of things, eh? Keith i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) - Original Message - From: John Hayes
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
- Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:52 Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! I would say the apointed judge just failed to get his ass in gear untill it was to late, and now is blaming the sheriff for taking matters in to his own hands. I assume that you are a great admirer of judge Lynch. In more civilized societies, we do not allow the police to take the justice in their own hands. You have police that don't shoot at armed felons and terrorist? Not even in self defence? What about in defence of the law abiding? We must have some different opinions on human rights, burden of proof and the right to a fair trial. What you are describing is a typical police state. No what I'm describing is a system that breaks down, and leaves the victim out in the cold, all in the name of fairness ( for the criminal ). After a while, the victims get tired of being victims, and take matters into their own hands, just out of a sense of survival. Things must have changed in the US, since last time I was there. I am sorry if my impressions are not up to date. I don't know when the last time you was here, but, even in the last 2 years, allot has changed. America is allot more paranoid and fearful, and one goes with the other. In the last 30 years certain members of congress in order to remain in power have made people more reliant on the government for their everyday needs ( you already know that part ), and you probably already know that job specialization, has also contributed to this. What you may not know and allot of Americans don't either and are just finding out is that the US Supreme Court has ruled that police have no legal responsibility to protect citizens of the US. So out of fear, people are starting to take matters into their own hands, and this translates to an extent to foreign policy. One of the biggest unsolved crises that UN had to deal with, is the Israel - Palestine issues and US have through repeated vetoes sabotaged it. I'm still looking into this, but, it does not seem that it was US veto's alone, but, other factors as well. I think that you will find around 16 vetoes, if I remember right. A veto is not necessary if it is other factors, but please go on looking. It is a sad reading and all of them are in favor of Israel, none in favor of the other party. This is the country that claims that they can make a fair road map to piece -:)) and deserves the respect for fairness. 16 vetoes out of how many resolutions ? I lost track around the 65th. When have the Palestinians tried peace? I know that Israel tried a number of times only to have a Palestinian suicide bomber kills several Israelis. For many years now, US have also sabotaged UN by withholding its agreed member fees. And the UN is costing the US ( expecialy NY ) a lot of money, due to ambassadors and/or staff of member nations failing to uphold the laws of the land, and abusing their UN status. I think that we have an other culture crash here. Not really. Do you go to another country expecting to break the laws and get off without penalty? Where I come from, we pay what we owe and in time. And this is the bases to which much of the problem has occurred. Members of UN staff get tickets for illegally parking and other unlawful acts, vehicles get towed, and other things like this, and they don't pay the fines and use diplomatic status to get the vehical out of impoundment for free or otherwise get out of repeated trouble. I have heard some estimates for the cost to be as high as 5 million a year to NY, to enforce laws ( and this is not taking into account of money lost due to the illegal action ), that they are not being compensated for. This alone was an issue to why the US was with holding funds. Apart of that, I think that NY do make a net benefit in several ways. Perhaps, but, because of the actions of some UN staffers, many of NYPD ( and other New Yorkers ), would say good buy and help them pack. Why should it be in a country where the police take the law in their own hands They are humans, that don't make human mistakes :-P ? Sorry I don't know of one place that has police that are not infallible. Even though it may not seem like it, when police exceed the law, they are still held accountable. and where payments are not done in time? Please tell that to NY, were, they lose money (because of some of the UN ) enforcing the laws, for the benefit of the UN as well as the rest of the people. Q. When will the UN start policing it's self? A. When hell freezes over, because they are to busy policing everyone else. Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Dear John, At 10:17 AM 3/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: $25 is a target price by US, where they can maintain the American way of life. $40 for a longer period will be very difficult and close to $60 the American society will start to deteriorate. This is not my analyses, it is based on several US data, so do not get angry with me. Well, yes and no. On its face, such a statement is true as $60 a barrel would disrupt American life somewhat. However, such a malthusian reading of the situation ignores other forces and adjustments that could come into play. Texas, Pennsylvania, and Louisiana crude become economically viable once prices spike. The US R/P value for US is 10.7 years. I do not think that you can ever more relay only on your own oil reserves. I think that you have all the reasons to muster the other forces and adjustments immediately. Increased trucking costs would cause the cost of goods to rise, but it might also shift more freight back to the railroad. Increased cost at the gas pump would drive people away from SUVs and toward carpooling and smaller cars. That would be a welcome change in the American way of life, I strongly support it. It will however cost a lot of job opportunities and have substantial economical impact. Austerity is not a part of the American way of life. Likewise, I'd bet that 3 billion pounds of surplus soybean oil the USDA has laying around would get turned into SMEs pretty damn fast. Great, but you have to start now in a large scale, otherwise you will be caught with your pants down. I also bet people would figure out how to do something with all that West Virginia and Wyoming coal. Yes, hydrogen from coal is the only fossil alternative. It will take you 20 to 30 years to get to this. Bush loves this, since he probably been briefed about the seriousness of today's situation. He does not explain it to the American people, like both Carter and Nixon tried to do. Things have not got better since then, on the contrary. So anyway, distruption, yes. Deterioration, No. As I clearly said, this was is the opinions of several American experts. If they are wrong, the better for you. For many years now, US have also sabotaged UN by withholding its agreed member fees. I also want to tell you, if you do not really know, that US and UK are the industrial countries that contributes the lowest amounts per capita to UN and other help programs for the developing countries. Sweden is among the highest and I am in that sense proud of being a Swede. Yes, and the US pays 25% of the total UN budget as well as 30% of the peacekeeping budget. Nor does this include the billions of dollars the US donates in manpower and logistics to worldwide peacekeeping opperations for which other nations are routinely reimbursed. Do I think the US should pay its dues in full in a timely manner? Absolutely. But I also think it is disingenuous to ignore that the US is the largest contributor in absolute dollars. Some other facts to consider: US population as percentage of total of World Population: 4.6% US GNP as a as percentage of total of World GNP: 29% Percentage of UN dues paid by the US: 25% My point being that you can argue it either way based on population or economic wealth but it is unfair to only pick the statistic that supports your agenda. I have no specific agenda, I only respond to people who is promoting issues and have an agenda that I find dubious. I hear so much from Americans that are either ignorance of the facts or deliberate false propaganda. Some of the things I hear, Claim: US liberated Europe during WWII with it's heroic troops. Truth: The US forces was 10% of the allied forces and their casualties were around 50,000 of the allied total of 600,000 and the Soviets lost 6 million. It was the US material support that made it possible to save half of Europe from being occupied by the Soviets, not the US troops. Claim: US is altruistic and give the largest aid to developing countries. Truth: Both per capita and by percentage of GNP, US is on the bottom of the list of developed countries. Nothing to brag about, when it is the richest country in the world. If you contributed per capita or by GNP in the same relation as the Swedes, you would give 3 times more than you do. Being a rich and populated country, you are giving the largest $ value, but if you add the EU countries even this is not true. It is many things that can be said, but I do not want to go further in this. Because every time we get close to facts, realities and truth, somebody will say that I do American bashing and do not like Americans, which is not true either. It is only when the Americans try to claim some sort of nationalistic higher ground and superiority, that I try to point out that you are not better and not worse than the rest of the world population. Maybe if you realized this, your respect for others and your foreign policies would improve. I am sure that you
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Greg H. At 12:10 PM 3/19/2003 -0700, you wrote: I would say the apointed judge just failed to get his ass in gear untill it was to late, and now is blaming the sheriff for taking matters in to his own hands. I assume that you are a great admirer of judge Lynch. In more civilized societies, we do not allow the police to take the justice in their own hands. You have police that don't shoot at armed felons and terrorist? Not even in self defence? What about in defence of the law abiding? Isn't it fantastic, our police in Europe do not go around and shoot people. It is very rare that we have gun fights and when it happens, it is very big news. We must have some different opinions on human rights, burden of proof and the right to a fair trial. What you are describing is a typical police state. No what I'm describing is a system that breaks down, and leaves the victim out in the cold, all in the name of fairness ( for the criminal ). After a while, the victims get tired of being victims, and take matters into their own hands, just out of a sense of survival. We do not have this in Europe. Things must have changed in the US, since last time I was there. I am sorry if my impressions are not up to date. I don't know when the last time you was here, but, even in the last 2 years, allot has changed. America is allot more paranoid and fearful, and one goes with the other. In the last 30 years certain members of congress in order to remain in power have made people more reliant on the government for their everyday needs ( you already know that part ), and you probably already know that job specialization, has also contributed to this. What you may not know and allot of Americans don't either and are just finding out is that the US Supreme Court has ruled that police have no legal responsibility to protect citizens of the US. So out of fear, people are starting to take matters into their own hands, and this translates to an extent to foreign policy. You have a serious problem in US, but I don't think that it is solved by killing Iraqis. One of the biggest unsolved crises that UN had to deal with, is the Israel - Palestine issues and US have through repeated vetoes sabotaged it. I'm still looking into this, but, it does not seem that it was US veto's alone, but, other factors as well. I think that you will find around 16 vetoes, if I remember right. A veto is not necessary if it is other factors, but please go on looking. It is a sad reading and all of them are in favor of Israel, none in favor of the other party. This is the country that claims that they can make a fair road map to piece -:)) and deserves the respect for fairness. 16 vetoes out of how many resolutions ? I lost track around the 65th. When have the Palestinians tried peace? I know that Israel tried a number of times only to have a Palestinian suicide bomber kills several Israelis. For UN standards it is a lot of vetoes. Suicide bomber is a very new phenomena and has nothing to do with the reasons for the vetoes. The appearances of suicide bombers could maybe be linked as a part of the effects of the vetoes. You must be quite desperate to commit suicide. It is human beings we are talking about. Why do you think they are so desperate? For many years now, US have also sabotaged UN by withholding its agreed member fees. And the UN is costing the US ( expecialy NY ) a lot of money, due to ambassadors and/or staff of member nations failing to uphold the laws of the land, and abusing their UN status. I think that we have an other culture crash here. Not really. Do you go to another country expecting to break the laws and get off without penalty? Where I come from, we pay what we owe and in time. And this is the bases to which much of the problem has occurred. Members of UN staff get tickets for illegally parking and other unlawful acts, vehicles get towed, and other things like this, and they don't pay the fines and use diplomatic status to get the vehical out of impoundment for free or otherwise get out of repeated trouble. I have heard some estimates for the cost to be as high as 5 million a year to NY, to enforce laws ( and this is not taking into account of money lost due to the illegal action ), that they are not being compensated for. This alone was an issue to why the US was with holding funds. Apart of that, I think that NY do make a net benefit in several ways. Perhaps, but, because of the actions of some UN staffers, many of NYPD ( and other New Yorkers ), would say good buy and help them pack. I belive you, it is difficult with so much diplomatic immunity. Why should it be in a country where the police take the law in their own hands They are humans, that don't make human mistakes :-P ? Sorry I don't know of one place that has police that are not infallible. Even though it may not seem like it, when police
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
At the time of the Second World War, German technology was producing gasoline from coal. An entire factory was brought from Germany, and assembled in Missouri. It made gasoline at a cost of 5 cents a gallon. It was dismantled and the technology was hidden away. Ed B Yes, hydrogen from coal is the only fossil alternative. It will take you 20 to 30 years to get to this. Bush loves this, since he probably been briefed about the seriousness of today's situation. He does not explain it to the American people, like both Carter and Nixon tried to do. Things have not got better since then, on the contrary. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:48 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Dear John, At 10:17 AM 3/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: $25 is a target price by US, where they can maintain the American way of life. $40 for a longer period will be very difficult and close to $60 the American society will start to deteriorate. This is not my analyses, it is based on several US data, so do not get angry with me. Well, yes and no. On its face, such a statement is true as $60 a barrel would disrupt American life somewhat. However, such a malthusian reading of the situation ignores other forces and adjustments that could come into play. Texas, Pennsylvania, and Louisiana crude become economically viable once prices spike. The US R/P value for US is 10.7 years. I do not think that you can ever more relay only on your own oil reserves. I think that you have all the reasons to muster the other forces and adjustments immediately. Increased trucking costs would cause the cost of goods to rise, but it might also shift more freight back to the railroad. Increased cost at the gas pump would drive people away from SUVs and toward carpooling and smaller cars. That would be a welcome change in the American way of life, I strongly support it. It will however cost a lot of job opportunities and have substantial economical impact. Austerity is not a part of the American way of life. Likewise, I'd bet that 3 billion pounds of surplus soybean oil the USDA has laying around would get turned into SMEs pretty damn fast. Great, but you have to start now in a large scale, otherwise you will be caught with your pants down. I also bet people would figure out how to do something with all that West Virginia and Wyoming coal. Yes, hydrogen from coal is the only fossil alternative. It will take you 20 to 30 years to get to this. Bush loves this, since he probably been briefed about the seriousness of today's situation. He does not explain it to the American people, like both Carter and Nixon tried to do. Things have not got better since then, on the contrary. So anyway, distruption, yes. Deterioration, No. As I clearly said, this was is the opinions of several American experts. If they are wrong, the better for you. For many years now, US have also sabotaged UN by withholding its agreed member fees. I also want to tell you, if you do not really know, that US and UK are the industrial countries that contributes the lowest amounts per capita to UN and other help programs for the developing countries. Sweden is among the highest and I am in that sense proud of being a Swede. Yes, and the US pays 25% of the total UN budget as well as 30% of the peacekeeping budget. Nor does this include the billions of dollars the US donates in manpower and logistics to worldwide peacekeeping opperations for which other nations are routinely reimbursed. Do I think the US should pay its dues in full in a timely manner? Absolutely. But I also think it is disingenuous to ignore that the US is the largest contributor in absolute dollars. Some other facts to consider: US population as percentage of total of World Population: 4.6% US GNP as a as percentage of total of World GNP: 29% Percentage of UN dues paid by the US: 25% My point being that you can argue it either way based on population or economic wealth but it is unfair to only pick the statistic that supports your agenda. I have no specific agenda, I only respond to people who is promoting issues and have an agenda that I find dubious. I hear so much from Americans that are either ignorance of the facts or deliberate false propaganda. Some of the things I hear, Claim: US liberated Europe during WWII with it's heroic troops. Truth: The US forces was 10% of the allied forces and their casualties were around 50,000 of the allied total of 600,000 and the Soviets lost 6 million. It was the US material support that made it possible to save half of Europe from being occupied by the Soviets, not the US troops. Claim: US is altruistic and give
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 01:00 am, Hakan Falk wrote: $25 is a target price by US, where they can maintain the American way of life. $40 for a longer period will be very difficult and close to $60 the American society will start to deteriorate. This is not my analyses, it is based on several US data, so do not get angry with me. This also means that Iraqi suggestions of oil blockade, was an immediate threat to the US national security and probably the reason for the war. It is however not yet a recognized crime to refuse to deliver national treasures to the US, but in future it might be. didn't the US some time ago classify threats to Industrial assets as well as military and strategic assets (or what ever) as part of the definition for spying etc. activity? clear and present danger and all that... (can't recall source, but something to do with Escelon) ofcourse, I may be wrong... -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
At the time of the Second World War, German technology was producing gasoline from coal. An entire factory was brought from Germany, and assembled in Missouri. It made gasoline at a cost of 5 cents a gallon. It was dismantled and the technology was hidden away. Ed B Not so. This is what happened - posted here previously by a list member: One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new, alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest synthetic fuels producer globally. Best wishes Keith Yes, hydrogen from coal is the only fossil alternative. It will take you 20 to 30 years to get to this. Bush loves this, since he probably been briefed about the seriousness of today's situation. He does not explain it to the American people, like both Carter and Nixon tried to do. Things have not got better since then, on the contrary. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) - Original Message - From: John Hayes To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Tricia Liu wrote: The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports the Iraqi war! Can we have a poll in this group? So we can see how many members think the war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? Set it up at Journeyforever website? Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll to conclude that the majority of list readers are against this war? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Not. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Josh Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 09:55 Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
You would be wrong. i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) Ê - Original Message - Ê From: John Hayes Ê To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Ê Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM Ê Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Ê Tricia Liu wrote: Ê The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports the Ê Iraqi war! Ê Can we have a poll in this group?Ê So we can see how many members think the Ê war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? Set it Ê up at Journeyforever website? Ê Ê Ê Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to Ê nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll to conclude Ê that the majority of list readers are against this war? ÊÊÊ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Ê ADVERTISEMENT Ê Biofuel at Journey to Forever: Ê http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Ê Biofuels list archives: Ê http://archive.nnytech.net/ Ê Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. Ê To unsubscribe, send an email to: Ê [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ê Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [IMAGE] [IMAGE] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Vern_Hendershott wrote: You would be wrong. And so would you be Vern, as you have been all along. You've been closing your eyesto a lot of things, eh? Keith i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) - Original Message - From: John Hayes To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Tricia Liu wrote: The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports the Iraqi war! Can we have a poll in this group? So we can see how many members think the war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? Set it up at Journeyforever website? Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll to conclude that the majority of list readers are against this war? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
I make two Harley -Original Message- From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 12:26 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Not. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Josh Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 09:55 Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Well Keith, there so far are two list members who are not anti war, we have only tried to correct an incorrect assumption made by another list member. History will, after time, tell us all who is right and who is wrong. In the meantime we enjoy the right to have differing opinions. You continue to try to educate us with lots of information each day to try to make your point. It is your list and you can do as you will, I can not and would not try to stop you. It would be a pleasant change if you stopped the personal attacks against individuals who do not share your view of the world and who do you the courtesy of treating you with personal respect even when we may not think you are correct. It is a simple and courteous thing to do. Best regards, Vern Vern_Hendershott wrote: You would be wrong. And so would you be Vern, as you have been all along. You've been closing your eyesto a lot of things, eh? Keith i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) Ê - Original Message - Ê From: John Hayes Ê To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Ê Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM Ê Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Ê Tricia Liu wrote: Ê The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports the Ê Iraqi war! Ê Can we have a poll in this group?Ê So we can see how many members think the Ê war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? Set it Ê up at Journeyforever website? Ê Ê Ê Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to Ê nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll to conclude Ê that the majority of list readers are against this war? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [IMAGE] [IMAGE] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
I'm anti war, but not anti this war. needs to be done. shoulda been done 13 years ago. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Not. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Josh Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 09:55 Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Ummm. I fail to see how Vern's remark merits this response. Andrew postulated that 100% of the group is against the war. Vern presented a datapoint that invalidates Andrew's assertion. Vern may be right or wrong in his support of this war, but in this post all he did was provide evidence that invalidated Andrew's overgeneralization. No more and no less. John Keith Addison wrote: Vern_Hendershott wrote: You would be wrong. And so would you be Vern, as you have been all along. You've been closing your eyesto a lot of things, eh? Keith i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) - Original Message - From: John Hayes To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Tricia Liu wrote: The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports the Iraqi war! Can we have a poll in this group? So we can see how many members think the war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? Set it up at Journeyforever website? Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll to conclude that the majority of list readers are against this war? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Well Keith, there so far are two list members who are not anti war, Four. we have only tried to correct an incorrect assumption made by another list member. ... who said: i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) Four out of 1,500 makes what percent? History will, after time, tell us all who is right and who is wrong. In the meantime we enjoy the right to have differing opinions. You continue to try to educate us with lots of information each day to try to make your point. You mean you four? You think that's what I'm doing? - trying to educate you and any others who share your views? I must be, eh? - either that or I'm preaching to the choir? :-) I'll leave you to figure it out. It is your list No, it is not *my* list. I'm it's steward - servant, skivvy. and you can do as you will, No, I cannot do with it as I will. I can not and would not try to stop you. It would be a pleasant change if you stopped the personal attacks against individuals who do not share your view of the world and who do you the courtesy of treating you with personal respect even when we may not think you are correct. It is a simple and courteous thing to do. ... we enjoy the right to have differing opinions, Vern, and my opinion differs from yours on this too - you see it as personal attacks, I know some others do too, and I've examined these claims in some detail, and found them wanting. I see it as direct, that's all, but maybe you and these others are not used to that, nor to dealing with dissenting views. Best Keith Best regards, Vern Vern_Hendershott wrote: You would be wrong. And so would you be Vern, as you have been all along. You've been closing your eyesto a lot of things, eh? Keith i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) - Original Message - From: John Hayes To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Tricia Liu wrote: The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports the Iraqi war! Can we have a poll in this group? So we can see how many members think the war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? Set it up at Journeyforever website? Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll to conclude that the majority of list readers are against this war? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Dear Vern, I can not imagine anything worse happening to me than if I unintentionally or intentionally would cause the death of a human being. I met many people who has been in that situation and still have to meet one who has not been scarred for life of that experience. This has been people involved in accidents as well as people who participated in wars. I am not talking about decision makers nor am I talking mentally disturbed people. I can accept that violence like war can be necessary to defend yourself from an attack. It is nothing that anyone can say that preemptive violence and killing can ever be a just cause. If I do, I would accept many of the reasons for past wars as just wars, even if they were lost. President Bush and cohorts make me sick. Not only are they talking about wars like it would be a Hollywood adventure and childish games of who is blinking first, the are actually trying to defend their killing of people, based on that the other party might do something. Preemption is a very dangerous thing and if it is accepted as a doctrine, it will be used by others and this world will forever change. During the whole of US history it has been a strong rejection of preemption as an excuse for war. President Bush makes me sick and I am sad that I had to live to see the first American President who starts a preemptive war, this against a strong world opinion and with the lack of any democratic principles. If democratic principles are worth anything for Bush or Blair, they had to take in count the world opinion. Instead they cowardly redraw a resolution to gain a possibility to legally defend their attack on Iraq. I feel sorry for you, if you are not anti war. Any normal human being must be anti war, it is unbelievable to find any sane person that are pro war. Violence is the weapon of the weak. I picked up the following quote and it is very telling, No flag is large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people -- Howard Zinn But on the other hand collateral damage does not sound so bad or does it? Hakan At 11:12 PM 3/18/2003 +0300, you wrote: Well Keith, there so far are two list members who are not anti war, we have only tried to correct an incorrect assumption made by another list member. History will, after time, tell us all who is right and who is wrong. In the meantime we enjoy the right to have differing opinions. You continue to try to educate us with lots of information each day to try to make your point. It is your list and you can do as you will, I can not and would not try to stop you. It would be a pleasant change if you stopped the personal attacks against individuals who do not share your view of the world and who do you the courtesy of treating you with personal respect even when we may not think you are correct. It is a simple and courteous thing to do. Best regards, Vern Vern_Hendershott wrote: You would be wrong. And so would you be Vern, as you have been all along. You've been closing your eyesto a lot of things, eh? Keith i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) - Original Message - From: John Hayes To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Tricia Liu wrote: The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports the Iraqi war! Can we have a poll in this group? So we can see how many members think the war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? Set it up at Journeyforever website? Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll to conclude that the majority of list readers are against this war? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Well put. I am old enough to know a few veterans of Viet Nam. Some will not talk about what they did. Some do. After returning home, one went 'down the pike' to the lowest levels on drugs and alcohol. A streeter. Most of the guys he went with died over a few years, as the lowest dregs of society. Bums. Fogged in drugs and alcohol. That would have been his fate too, but somehow he survived. What I am getting at is, for the sake of society, and the young soldiers, war better be fully justified, or it will create burden that gets paid for again and again over time, with the twisting of minds of young soldiers. Ed B - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Dear Vern, I can not imagine anything worse happening to me than if I unintentionally or intentionally would cause the death of a human being. I met many people who has been in that situation and still have to meet one who has not been scarred for life of that experience. This has been people involved in accidents as well as people who participated in wars. I am not talking about decision makers nor am I talking mentally disturbed people. I can accept that violence like war can be necessary to defend yourself from an attack. It is nothing that anyone can say that preemptive violence and killing can ever be a just cause. If I do, I would accept many of the reasons for past wars as just wars, even if they were lost. President Bush and cohorts make me sick. Not only are they talking about wars like it would be a Hollywood adventure and childish games of who is blinking first, the are actually trying to defend their killing of people, based on that the other party might do something. Preemption is a very dangerous thing and if it is accepted as a doctrine, it will be used by others and this world will forever change. During the whole of US history it has been a strong rejection of preemption as an excuse for war. President Bush makes me sick and I am sad that I had to live to see the first American President who starts a preemptive war, this against a strong world opinion and with the lack of any democratic principles. If democratic principles are worth anything for Bush or Blair, they had to take in count the world opinion. Instead they cowardly redraw a resolution to gain a possibility to legally defend their attack on Iraq. I feel sorry for you, if you are not anti war. Any normal human being must be anti war, it is unbelievable to find any sane person that are pro war. Violence is the weapon of the weak. I picked up the following quote and it is very telling, No flag is large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people -- Howard Zinn But on the other hand collateral damage does not sound so bad or does it? Hakan At 11:12 PM 3/18/2003 +0300, you wrote: Well Keith, there so far are two list members who are not anti war, we have only tried to correct an incorrect assumption made by another list member. History will, after time, tell us all who is right and who is wrong. In the meantime we enjoy the right to have differing opinions. You continue to try to educate us with lots of information each day to try to make your point. It is your list and you can do as you will, I can not and would not try to stop you. It would be a pleasant change if you stopped the personal attacks against individuals who do not share your view of the world and who do you the courtesy of treating you with personal respect even when we may not think you are correct. It is a simple and courteous thing to do. Best regards, Vern Vern_Hendershott wrote: You would be wrong. And so would you be Vern, as you have been all along. You've been closing your eyesto a lot of things, eh? Keith i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) - Original Message - From: John Hayes To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Tricia Liu wrote: The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports the Iraqi war! Can we have a poll in this group? So we can see how many members think the war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? Set it up at Journeyforever website? Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll to conclude that the majority of list readers are against this war? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
and the sheeple who didn't even know there was a good fight going on. The only thing that does cheer me up is the world-wide public response that may have some kind of effect. But once the blood starts to flow, then there will be no turning back. A National Security Police State will be installed wherever the CIA decides to lob a grenade with a from Saddam card attached. I, from now on, will not use the word war again. Bloodshed is the goal. Bloodshed is the term that should be used. Here's hoping the international media is of a strength to stop the madness but I'm not betting on it. Oh, and by the way, if the US manages to bribe enough nations at the UN to endorse the bloodletting, then they'll be able to say the slaughter is acceptable. Disgusting, isn't it? You know, Bush and Saddam sound like promos for WWF wrestling. I'd love to see them both in a ring. But the build-up is pure WWR. Bush: Your day is coming, Saddam. Nowhere to hide. (Of course, it's not Saddam that George is going to bomb but that isn't mentioned.) Saddam: The Great Satan will be crushed if you come to the East. etc. etc. etc. Doonesbury said they reminded him of dogs fighting. But I'd bet if he thought about it, WWF wrestling is the better analogy. Especially when the blood turns out to be real. -- John C.The Banking Systems Engineer Turmel, Author of the UNILETS interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Well Keith, there so far are two list members who are not anti war, Four. we have only tried to correct an incorrect assumption made by another list member. ... who said: i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) Four out of 1,500 makes what percent? History will, after time, tell us all who is right and who is wrong. In the meantime we enjoy the right to have differing opinions. You continue to try to educate us with lots of information each day to try to make your point. You mean you four? You think that's what I'm doing? - trying to educate you and any others who share your views? I must be, eh? - either that or I'm preaching to the choir? :-) I'll leave you to figure it out. It is your list No, it is not *my* list. I'm it's steward - servant, skivvy. and you can do as you will, No, I cannot do with it as I will. I can not and would not try to stop you. It would be a pleasant change if you stopped the personal attacks against individuals who do not share your view of the world and who do you the courtesy of treating you with personal respect even when we may not think you are correct. It is a simple and courteous thing to do. ... we enjoy the right to have differing opinions, Vern, and my opinion differs from yours on this too - you see it as personal attacks, I know some others do too, and I've examined these claims in some detail, and found them wanting. I see it as direct, that's all, but maybe you and these others are not used to that, nor to dealing with dissenting views. Best Keith Best regards, Vern Vern_Hendershott wrote: You would be wrong. And so would you be Vern, as you have been all along. You've been closing your eyesto a lot of things, eh? Keith i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) - Original Message - From: John Hayes To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Tricia Liu wrote: The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports the Iraqi war! Can we have a poll in this group? So we can see how many members think the war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? Set it up at Journeyforever website? Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll to conclude that the majority of list readers are against this war? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
Ummm. I fail to see how Vern's remark merits this response. Andrew postulated that 100% of the group is against the war. Vern presented a datapoint that invalidates Andrew's assertion. Vern may be right or wrong in his support of this war, but in this post all he did was provide evidence that invalidated Andrew's overgeneralization. No more and no less. John Hello John all he did was provide evidence that invalidated Andrew's overgeneralization. No more and no less. Either it was just a counter opinion, with no evidence, or it was a statement that Vern himself supports the war, which would be evidence, and it seems that's how both you and I took it. So he'd then be right in that the group's anti-war stance is not total. But, in my opinion, as stated, and that of the large majority of the group, Vern's support for the war is wrong, and can only be based on ignoring a great deal of information, much of which has been posted here. Best Keith Addison Keith Addison wrote: Vern_Hendershott wrote: You would be wrong. And so would you be Vern, as you have been all along. You've been closing your eyesto a lot of things, eh? Keith i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) - Original Message - From: John Hayes To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Tricia Liu wrote: The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports the Iraqi war! Can we have a poll in this group? So we can see how many members think the war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? Set it up at Journeyforever website? Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll to conclude that the majority of list readers are against this war? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
to test and trumpet the tools of war. What must it do to one's mind and soul to engage as a soldier in a war in which the enemy is defenseless, in which the motives of one's leaders are vile, and in which one's own say over the events is nil? I support our troops refusing to kill on behalf of politicians and profiteers. I support our troops rebelling against orders, not obeying them. I support our troops rejecting reasons of state. And I support our troops coming home to where their real battle is. We must battle to reinvest our society with aspirations for justice and equality and with respect for diversity, solidarity, and self-management. We must battle to eliminate the scourge of private ownership that makes a few people as rich as whole populations and that leaves many people less rich than the pets of profiteers. We must battle to totally eradicate the racism and sexism that denigrate whole sectors of the population, to free sexuality and culture, to free creativity, and to sustain the environment. Bush tells us to bomb Iraq on grounds Iraq may have bombs. He tells us to bomb Iraq on grounds Iraq curtails freedoms. He tells us to bomb Iraq on grounds Iraq may be abetting terrorism. What then should we do about a country that has by far the most bombs in the world and that uses them most widely-and that brags about it shamelessly? What should we do about a country that is currently curtailing freedoms abroad and moving to do so at home with a dangerously escalating vigor-and that brags about it shamelessly? And what should we do about a country that is producing terrorism most aggressively - both terrorism directed at others and also terrorism which will be unleashed against us in reply-and that brags about it shamelessly. What should we do about the U.S.? We should curtail its belligerency, change its regime, and fundamentally revolutionize its centers of wealth and power. Support our troops, bring them home. Support our troops, provide them housing. Support our troops, provide them health care. Support our troops, provide them socially valuable jobs. Turn military bases into industrial centers for the production of low cost housing, schools, hospitals, daycare centers, rail lines, inner city parks, and other social and public goods that can enrich rather than snuff out life. Support our troops and one day they will join the fight for unlimited justice for all. Support our troops. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! Dear Vern, I can not imagine anything worse happening to me than if I unintentionally or intentionally would cause the death of a human being. I met many people who has been in that situation and still have to meet one who has not been scarred for life of that experience. This has been people involved in accidents as well as people who participated in wars. I am not talking about decision makers nor am I talking mentally disturbed people. I can accept that violence like war can be necessary to defend yourself from an attack. It is nothing that anyone can say that preemptive violence and killing can ever be a just cause. If I do, I would accept many of the reasons for past wars as just wars, even if they were lost. President Bush and cohorts make me sick. Not only are they talking about wars like it would be a Hollywood adventure and childish games of who is blinking first, the are actually trying to defend their killing of people, based on that the other party might do something. Preemption is a very dangerous thing and if it is accepted as a doctrine, it will be used by others and this world will forever change. During the whole of US history it has been a strong rejection of preemption as an excuse for war. President Bush makes me sick and I am sad that I had to live to see the first American President who starts a preemptive war, this against a strong world opinion and with the lack of any democratic principles. If democratic principles are worth anything for Bush or Blair, they had to take in count the world opinion. Instead they cowardly redraw a resolution to gain a possibility to legally defend their attack on Iraq. I feel sorry for you, if you are not anti war. Any normal human being must be anti war, it is unbelievable to find any sane person that are pro war. Violence is the weapon of the weak. I picked up the following quote and it is very telling, No flag is large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people -- Howard Zinn But on the other hand collateral damage does not sound so bad or does it? Hakan At 11:12 PM 3/18/2003 +0300, you wrote: Well Keith, there so far are two list members who are not anti war, we have only tried to correct
