Dear Vern,
I am glad that you are anti war also. Josh Cohen expressed a very large trust in the members of this list when he said that it was 100% anti war, something that I belive also. It is a large trust in the list members to say so, but if you say that they are not, then you will have an argument with our Shepherd. Do you really think that you could offend the list members without hearing from Keith? Even if it might be a misunderstanding created by the moment. My position is that what happens now is wrong and against some very fundamental principles. The fundamental principle of the wrong in preemptive wars are so important, that it overrides any other argument that can be made for the current illegal attack on Iraq by US and UK. It does not exclude that we can have discussions about the moment and wonder how and why Bush/Blair got it so wrong. It is also very sad that the US propaganda machine works so well as it does. It is a hidden agenda there and it is the US desperate need for securing oil supplies and the US/UK oil companies wish to participate in developing what might be the largest oil reserves on Earth. Bush/Blair are talking about the fund of oil money that will be used for the Iraqi people. They are taking us for idiots and hope that it will obscure how it is working. It is not a matter of escaping from paying for the oil, it is a matter of getting their hands on the only tap that is not yet fully open. By doing that they can control world market prices and continue to pillage the gold of Middle East at $25 a barrel. It cannot be a continuation of the war 12 years ago, since that was a liberation of Kuweit by UN and the mandate only covered this. That is why it stopped when the mandate was achieved. It was supported by a world opinion and was a response on an attack by Iraq. It had democratic decisions behind it and created and performed in a legal fashion. What scares me a lot is the parallels with what happened in Germany in the 1930's and I pointed that out in an early stage. I am no alone and MH gave us a very interesting link that goes along the same lines, Published on Sunday, March 16, 2003 by CommonDreams.org When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History by Thom Hartmann http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm Unfortunately the events are now running the course and we will probably only be able to discuss how we should get Bush/Blair to answer for their crimes in the future. To discuss how we should prosecute Saddam Hussein for his crimes will probably not be possible. Hakan At 10:42 AM 3/19/2003 +0300, you wrote: >Dear Hakan, > >I agree with what you have said completely. But there is one area where see >the same thing from a different perspective or in a different way. I see >the current resumption of increased hostilities (war) as an extension of >the war that started over 12 years ago and has been going on since then in >a more limited way as the politicians tried to make the peace that Saddam >had agreed to work. During all this time Iraq has continued to act >belligerently (just ask any of the collision fighter pilots that have been >fired on by their anti aircraft units and yes we fired back) this is not a >new or preemptive situation it is, hopefully the conclusion of a long and >sad war which could have been ended much earlier and many lives saved and >much suffering could have been avoided. How long must that death and >suffering continue in the name of a political solution? > >All out war is very bad, dragged out war may be even worse if you are the >object of the suffering. > >Best regards, >Vern > > > >Dear Vern, > >I can not imagine anything worse happening to me than if I >unintentionally or intentionally would cause the death of a >human being. I met many people who has been in that situation >and still have to meet one who has not been scarred for life >of that experience. This has been people involved in accidents >as well as people who participated in wars. I am not talking >about decision makers nor am I talking mentally disturbed people. > >I can accept that violence like war can be necessary to defend >yourself from an attack. It is nothing that anyone can say that >preemptive violence and killing can ever be a just cause. If >I do, I would accept many of the reasons for past wars as just >wars, even if they were lost. > >President Bush and cohorts make me sick. Not only are they >talking about wars like it would be a Hollywood adventure and >childish games of who is blinking first, the are actually trying >to defend their killing of people, based on that the other party >might do something. Preemption is a very dangerous thing and >if it is accepted as a doctrine, it will be used by others and this >world will forever change. During the whole of US history it >has been a strong rejection of preemption as an excuse for >war. President Bush makes me sick and I am sad that I had >to live to see the first American President who starts a preemptive >war, this against a strong world opinion and with the lack of any >democratic principles. If democratic principles are worth anything >for Bush or Blair, they had to take in count the world opinion. >Instead they cowardly redraw a resolution to gain a possibility >to legally defend their attack on Iraq. > >I feel sorry for you, if you are not anti war. Any normal human >being must be anti war, it is unbelievable to find any sane person >that are pro war. Violence is the weapon of the weak. I picked up >the following quote and it is very telling, > >"No flag is large enough to cover the shame of >killing innocent people" -- Howard Zinn > >But on the other hand "collateral damage" does not sound so >bad or does it? > >Hakan > > >At 11:12 PM 3/18/2003 +0300, you wrote: > > >Well Keith, there so far are two list members who are not anti war, we >have > >only tried to correct an incorrect assumption made by another list member. > > > >History will, after time, tell us all who is right and who is wrong. In >the > >meantime we enjoy the right to have differing opinions. You continue to >try > >to educate us with lots of information each day to try to make your point. > >It is your list and you can do as you will, I can not and would not try to > >stop you. > > > >It would be a pleasant change if you stopped the personal attacks against > >individuals who do not share your view of the world and who do you the > >courtesy of treating you with personal respect even when we may not think > >you are correct. It is a simple and courteous thing to do. > > > >Best regards, > >Vern > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. 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