[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Frankly, I think Bush himself did 9/11. Ok ... so he did not directly push the button. But IMHO ... he enabled it. and surgically enhanced it. IMHO he WANTED the WTC down (for reasons listed by Dave).So he arranged it to go down. He had DEMOLITION CHARGES set up in it so that at-a-push-of-a-button .BOOM. The building would be uh renovated. All he needed was a REASON the-building-came-down. Much like killing someone during a 4th of July Skyrocket show so that the rocket booming would cover up the sound of your gunshot.Purposely turning a blind eye to the terrorist's planning the WTC's demise . knowing FULL WELL . that the planes crashing would be a PERFECT COVER for pushing the demolition charge button. And providing a convenient reason the American Public could blame. IMHO, this is the real truth behind 9/11. And frankly, I don't know how 'ol GW can sleep at night after ordering this. Maybe he thinks he's part of some higher purpose or something. And that the victims of the WTC are just collateral damage. Who knows Curtis Nothing says I love you like a bouquet of flowers! http://www.flowerson55.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello everyone, I'm new to this list. Has it occurred to any of you that maybe George already knew that the planes were going to hit the towers. I wonder if this is true because if you look at who gained most out the that disaster then it is undoubtedly the Bush administration. Greater control of the population, an increase in the military budget and the ability to invade a country that just happens to be strategically placed for the building of an oil pipeline. In fact Hamid Karzai, the president of Afghanistan, is a former advisor to the oil company, Unocal, which planned to build an oil and gas pipeline from the Caspian Sea region across western Afganistan to the Arabian Sea coast of Pakistan, but could not do while the Taliban were in power. And where is the evidence that Osama Bin Laden did it? I haven't seen any, just the repeated mantra 'Bin Laden did it'. 9/11 also made it virtually impossible for any country to oppose the U.S. after Bush said you're either with us or against us. This made the invasion of Iraq so much easier. And having British and US troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia is obviously very good from the view point of someone who wants to control that region. I wonder who will be next, Iran or Syria? Love, Dave. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Hallo Friends, Although I am responding to this mail of Curtis' it is a general mail to the list in general. Are we not beating a dead horse with this thread? It is obvious that there are strongly held beliefs on all sides about this but has sufficient thought been given to what the moderator has to endure with this? Can we not agree to disagree about this thing and do the courteous and kind thing and cut Keith some slack? It is painfully obvious that we are not going to settle this or agree on it here. It is a deleterious thread. Were we accomplishing something other than venting our spleens it would be a different matter. I assume we all joined this list for good reasons...to learn something about biofuels and to give aid as we are able. Is is not about time to do that? It is only reasonable that we agree to end this and return to more sensible things. This is not a call to stay on topic. This is a call to be reasonable and to give Keith a break, cut him some slack. It does not appear that further discussion of this thread will lead to anything constructive. Please give this some consideration friends. Happy Happy, Gustl Sunday, 04 July, 2004, 06:36:33, you wrote: CS Frankly, I think Bush himself did 9/11. Ok ... so he did not directly CS push the button. But IMHO ... he enabled it. and surgically CS enhanced it. CS IMHO he WANTED the WTC down (for reasons listed by Dave).So he CS arranged it to go down. He had DEMOLITION CHARGES set up in it so CS that at-a-push-of-a-button .BOOM. The building would be uh CS renovated. All he needed was a REASON the-building-came-down. Much CS like killing someone during a 4th of July Skyrocket show so that the CS rocket booming would cover up the sound of your gunshot.Purposely CS turning a blind eye to the terrorist's planning the WTC's demise . CS knowing FULL WELL . that the planes crashing would be a PERFECT COVER CS for pushing the demolition charge button. And providing a convenient CS reason the American Public could blame. CS IMHO, this is the real truth behind 9/11. And frankly, I don't know how CS 'ol GW can sleep at night after ordering this. Maybe he thinks he's part of CS some higher purpose or something. And that the victims of the WTC are CS just collateral damage. Who knows CS Curtis CS Nothing says I love you like a bouquet of flowers! CS http://www.flowerson55.com CS - Original Message - CS From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CS Hello everyone, CS I'm new to this list. CS Has it occurred to any of you that maybe George already knew that the CS planes were going to hit the towers. I wonder if this is true because CS if you look at who gained most out the that disaster then it is CS undoubtedly the Bush administration. Greater control of the population, CS an increase in the military budget and the ability to invade a country CS that just happens to be strategically placed for the building of an oil CS pipeline. In fact Hamid Karzai, the president of Afghanistan, is a CS former advisor to the oil company, Unocal, which planned to build an CS oil and gas pipeline from the Caspian Sea region across western CS Afganistan to the Arabian Sea coast of Pakistan, but could not do while CS the Taliban were in power. And where is the evidence that Osama Bin CS Laden did it? I haven't seen any, just the repeated mantra 'Bin Laden CS did it'. CS 9/11 also made it virtually impossible for any country to oppose the CS U.S. after Bush said you're either with us or against us. This made the CS invasion of Iraq so much easier. And having British and US troops in CS Iraq, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia is obviously very good from the view CS point of someone who wants to control that region. I wonder who will be CS next, Iran or Syria? CS Love, CS Dave. -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels
Re: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Hello everyone, I'm new to this list. Has it occurred to any of you that maybe George already knew that the planes were going to hit the towers. I wonder if this is true because if you look at who gained most out the that disaster then it is undoubtedly the Bush administration. Greater control of the population, an increase in the military budget and the ability to invade a country that just happens to be strategically placed for the building of an oil pipeline. In fact Hamid Karzai, the president of Afghanistan, is a former advisor to the oil company, Unocal, which planned to build an oil and gas pipeline from the Caspian Sea region across western Afganistan to the Arabian Sea coast of Pakistan, but could not do while the Taliban were in power. And where is the evidence that Osama Bin Laden did it? I haven't seen any, just the repeated mantra 'Bin Laden did it'. 9/11 also made it virtually impossible for any country to oppose the U.S. after Bush said you're either with us or against us. This made the invasion of Iraq so much easier. And having British and US troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia is obviously very good from the view point of someone who wants to control that region. I wonder who will be next, Iran or Syria? Love, Dave. On Tuesday, June 29, 2004, at 07:02 am, William Dwyer wrote: If I were in Dubya's shoes, which are more than likely too small for me anyway, I would have said, Hey kids, I'm really sorry, but I've got to go take care of something real important, it's something that Presidents have to do from time to time. (pause for the 2nd grade whines of disappointment to subside) I'll tell you what though, I'll have my assistant, Mr. Card here, schedule your whole class to come and visit me at the White House in a couple months.Ê How's that sound? (pause for 2nd grade cheers of excitement to subside) Ok!Ê Great!Ê We'll see you then!Ê Bye now! and exit as quickly and quietly as possible.Ê How long would that take?Ê 30 seconds?Ê A minute tops.Ê When you're the Commander in Chief of the United States, The ability to think and act quickly and decicively in a crisis situation is not just a good quality, it's an essential quality.Ê One that Bush hasn't shown any evidence of possessing.Ê By the way, I wish you'd have given me your question in written form...Ê Oh, wait, you just did...Ê DUH! Will I'm not a president, but I play one online Dwyer -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 12:43 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I would certainly like to hear what you would have done in that situation. If he had jumped up and ran out of the room he would have caused panic. Of course then everyone on the left would say he showed bad form. If he made a statement right then and there, he would be speaking on almost no information. There was nothing he could do from where he was, there was nothing anyone could do. Perhaps he should have run to the local phone booth switched outfits and flown out to save the day, but aside from that, everyone was entirely helpless. Honestly, I don't think I'll be voting for Bush, but I don't think he did anything wrong before, during and the period after, 9/11. I don't think anyone would have, or could have done anything better without a seer to predict the future. My problems lie with his justifications for the Iraq war, buts thats another issue entirely. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] image.tiff image.tiff Yahoo! Groups Links ð To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ Ê ð To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ê ð Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Well, Todd, it seems that some folks don't understand, or don't want to understand, that if a house is built on silt and quicksand it will soon crumble. Duh. So it is apparent that any information used as foundation for an argument or testative point and that that foundation information is flawed then it only stands to reason that anything emminating from that flawed foundational work will in itself also be flawed. One cannot gat figs from a cherry tree no matter how hard one tries, and that is a simple and obvious fact to all who care to not walk about with their eyes wide shut. L. Have a nice day. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Randall Sanborn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. I'll readily admit that there are some seriously flawed pieces on that site, but if you look through the two examples I mentioned you'll see a few perfect examples of disinformation. The pictures were the important part on those specific pages and for the most part the write up is spot on. I'll give Moore credit, he is one of the best I've seen at using facts to lie. wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. They aren't falsehoods, if you look at the quote I dropped in from Michael Moore he actually admitted to at least one of those incidents and the rest are very well documented. He's doesn't make documentaries, he makes political propaganda. I don't have a problem with political propaganda even, just as long as its honest and presented as such. He lies, and presents his work as documentary which it isn't. I'm sitting here reading numerous posts of people saying this is the best thing they've seen, etc, and I'd simply like them to at the very least exercise a little more judgment. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 11:10, Appal Energy wrote: Mr. Sanborn, Let's try a little honesty for a moment. I know that it might pain you. But give it a go just once. First of all, yes, you're correct. I do make point of discredit[ing] the source[s], especially when the sources you use are ripe with error. Second, when a person utilizes sources chucked full of error and disinformation as their foundation for argument, there is essentially no argument and no point or purpose in going 'round and 'round the mulberry bush as you would apparently like effect. Third, based upon the sources that you draw your information from, it is rather apparent that you're either an aspiring disinformatinalist or someone who siimply enjoys creating an atmosphere of argument. Fourth, in light of that, I'm afraid that you presume far too much in your expectancy that everyone (or anyone) drop everything that they're doing, wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. To what end? Certainly not in search of any truth. Or if so, only the truth as you care to interpret it. Do you really think that a book such as Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right would have made it out of the batter's box if it was as full of liable and untruths as your sources claim? And in all honesty, anyone who deliberately assesses judgement on a present issue and/or film based upon an unrelated past issue is someone who is far more set upon a distorted conclusion than upon any conclusion predicated upon reality. Come to think of it, that practice is exactly what you're accusing another of. One can only presume, based upon your operating on such a double standard, that the rules that you would care to apply to others simply don't apply to you? Perahaps now you can see why you are so easily discounted? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday,
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
The pages you've given are opinion and conjecture. I won't argue that they're not the opinion and conjecture of the people who posted them. You just can't seem to get the point that the opinion and conjecture of the right is not proof of Moore lying. You offer pages that take one little point of a film, present it totally out of context and say that is proof of lies in the entire film. This is your way of trying to discredit the information in Farenheit 9/11. Which is exactly what you claim that those who are trying to open your eyes are doing. Anyone who can point to perceived inconsistencies to try to discredit Moore in a Farenheit 9/11 thread, and then claim that others are trying to dicredit the source rather than address the issues must not think anyone on this list is very intelligent. Well, you're wrong. Those tactics may work on you, but won't on the majority of this list. You are not worth wasting any more of my time over. Unless you can post something that isn't doing exactly what you claim to be fighting against, I won't bother with you any longer. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Randall Sanborn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately, the pages I gave you are very well founded and documented. They are valid, and true. You know, its really funny, I can't, off hand, think of anyone that has actually tried to discredit my argument that Moore is a lier, and that his 'documentaries' are less documentary than one-sided propaganda. The only counter-point I can think of off hand is my comment about the number of casualties. I'll leave that for now, thats more of a pro/anti-war argument. I really don't understand the force at which people are fighting for Michael Moore either. I've certainly stated that I really have no position to support the current administration. Rather I think everyone is blindly accepting what this man is saying because he too doesn't like Bush. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, sure, doesn't mean you have to agree with him. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 19:29, Appal Energy wrote: You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Before I let my NRA membership lapse because I did not feel that they represented me as a responsible firearm owner, I used to receive their publication which was supposed to support protection of my second ammendment rights. This publication offered reports on the studies which showed an inverse relationship between gun control and crime. They compared states like Illinois, which does have some of the toughest gun control laws in the country (and is where I was living at the time) with states like it's neighbor, Indiana, which has comparatively lax gun control (and is where I live now). They showed data on the difference in per capita gun crime, and offered this as proof of their point. What they never mentioned was the difference in population of those states. Yes, Indiana has a few people in Gary, compared to the many in Chicago. Yes, Indiana on the whole has lower per capita gun crime than Illinois. Case proven, right? Wrong! If you compare the population of Gary with a similar population on the South Side of Chicago, demographically and geographically matched, guess which one has the higher per capita gun crime? You guessed it, Gary, Indiana. Lax gun laws and all. Who would have thunk? Actually, anyone that looks beyond the NRA propoganda for the truth. Gun regulation in Illinois, Michigan, New York, California, etc. is a response to the gun related crime in the major metropolitan areas of those states. And, it is working, despite the distortions of statistics provided by the NRA. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, rico suavae [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would have to agree with you.I've lived in several states both with strict and lax firearm purchase laws.Even in the most lax states [Florida,Lousiana,Texas]they observed all the paperwork and waiting periods. What I did note was there was an inverse raito between the states that severly restrict gun ownership[Michigan,Illnois]and crime.While this is only my personal experince there has been data published that bears this out. Mr.Moore is in business.In order to sell your product,it must be fresh and exciting.He does not sell sex.What he sells he sells well.However not as well as he used to,in my opnion.Before,he had truthto sell,now he only has inuendo. Rico [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer an opinion on it, but the bank scene is only an example of the same process that would happen in any other legal weapon transaction. I think the NRA bashes are more incriminating of Moore's deceptive style. He spends quite a while dehumanizing the NRA and especially Mr. Heston. I had a very good friend see this movie and tell me Heston and the NRA were a bunch of jerks for jumping up to hold rallies right after the killings in Flint and Columbine. I must say, the 'evidence' in the movie was compelling. But some other people slowed down the feeds and picked through the internet. The 'rally' in Flint wasn't actually a Rally, Heston showed up to support Bush on his campaign, and it was 7 months after the incident. The movie shows a headline that says, 48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead either right before or right after the Heston clip. It insinuates the meeting was 48 hours after, and there is no way its not intentional. But the headline continues on to say something about Clinton making a statement about the incident and is completely unrelated
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Perhaps my post # 36427 can shed some light of it. :) L. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Randall, I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. That goes ditto for me as well, especially when folks such as yourself point an entire list to spin sights dedicated solely to fragging those who present factual informatioin or reasonably supported perspectives contrary to the conservative party line. I was appreciably amused with the pro-Bill Oh-Really? bits found at one of your sources. Forget Oh-Really's snotty mouth and bad manners. That sight conjours up distortions for every deceipt that he's practiced on the public for decades. And sadly, as long as he's got people similar to yourself defending him he'll never have to speak truthfully. Must be nice. Doubtful that you're getting paid for your efforts either. What a shamI mean shame. Again, thanks for the chuckles. I have this sneakin' suspicion that you have a few more of these gems up your sleeve just itchin' to slip out. Ohone other thing. Relative to your poker skills, or in this case your lack thereof, there's this little beaut... A large number of civilians died in Iraq during the war and occupation. I'm willing to bet that a very large portion of those deaths were not inflicted by Americans though. Me thinks that you might want to get a grip on the numbers before you initiate your practices of dispersion, much less start laying money down on your peculiar beliefs. Ten to twelve thousand civilian deaths during the initial weeks of the invasion If the bombs hadn't dropped they wouldn't be dead, now would they? Those were American/Coalition bombs, now weren't they? And they were dropped because America's favourite antagonist decided to show everyone his full depth and breadth of ineptitude. But it's their fault that they're dead, huh? So how about quantifying what you call a very large portion? Go ahead, take your time. But when you're finished, I'll give you 10:1 odds that you're completely in error. But hell, it's your money - bet what you want. Seems to me that you've got a sad knack of placing responsibility in places where it doesn't belong. Doesn't speak well for your powers of discernment. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:20 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer an opinion on it, but the bank scene is only an example of the same process that would happen in any other legal weapon transaction. I think the NRA bashes are more incriminating of Moore's deceptive style. He spends quite a while dehumanizing the NRA and especially Mr. Heston. I had a very good friend see this movie and tell me Heston and the NRA were a bunch of jerks for jumping up to hold rallies right after the killings in Flint and Columbine. I must say, the 'evidence' in the movie was compelling. But some other people slowed down the feeds and picked through the internet. The 'rally' in Flint wasn't actually a Rally, Heston showed up to support Bush on his campaign, and it was 7 months after the incident. The movie shows a headline that says, 48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead either right before or right after the Heston clip. It insinuates the meeting
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I applaud your attempt to discredit the source rather than to make any attempt whatsoever to discredit the arguement or the premise itself. Have you ever heard the expression the pot calling the kettle black? I don't know if I've ever heard a better example of this than this statement. Brian Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Perhaps my post # 36427 can shed some light of it. :) Not really L. Yes. I read your post. I also left it lay, as your conclusion that F 9/11 would lead to a Saudi witch hunt is rather threadbare. If you'd paid some attention to F 9/11 you'd be able to note that the film points out numerous valid questions that have yet to be answered. Whether or not others go on witch hunts instead of answering the questions is altogether irrelevant - save for the fact that in doing so they quickly reveal their lack of principle. For what purpose, again, one can only question. Sad state of affairs when questions are considered more chaotic than actions. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: bioveging [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:38 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 Perhaps my post # 36427 can shed some light of it. :) L. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Randall, I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. That goes ditto for me as well, especially when folks such as yourself point an entire list to spin sights dedicated solely to fragging those who present factual informatioin or reasonably supported perspectives contrary to the conservative party line. I was appreciably amused with the pro-Bill Oh-Really? bits found at one of your sources. Forget Oh-Really's snotty mouth and bad manners. That sight conjours up distortions for every deceipt that he's practiced on the public for decades. And sadly, as long as he's got people similar to yourself defending him he'll never have to speak truthfully. Must be nice. Doubtful that you're getting paid for your efforts either. What a shamI mean shame. Again, thanks for the chuckles. I have this sneakin' suspicion that you have a few more of these gems up your sleeve just itchin' to slip out. Ohone other thing. Relative to your poker skills, or in this case your lack thereof, there's this little beaut... A large number of civilians died in Iraq during the war and occupation. I'm willing to bet that a very large portion of those deaths were not inflicted by Americans though. Me thinks that you might want to get a grip on the numbers before you initiate your practices of dispersion, much less start laying money down on your peculiar beliefs. Ten to twelve thousand civilian deaths during the initial weeks of the invasion If the bombs hadn't dropped they wouldn't be dead, now would they? Those were American/Coalition bombs, now weren't they? And they were dropped because America's favourite antagonist decided to show everyone his full depth and breadth of ineptitude. But it's their fault that they're dead, huh? So how about quantifying what you call a very large portion? Go ahead, take your time. But when you're finished, I'll give you 10:1 odds that you're completely in error. But hell, it's your money - bet what you want. Seems to me that you've got a sad knack of placing responsibility in places where it doesn't belong. Doesn't speak well for your powers of discernment. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:20 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I wrote my reply to Randall's post before looking at his references. For that I apologize. Now that I have read Heston's entire speech, I would like to thank him for posting that link here. He has proven to us all that the editing that Moore did in Bowling fro Columbine presented a very fair representation of the message of that speech. For posting something that so clearly goes against his agenda, I commend him. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hallo All, I find it somewhat curious that some folks bend over backwards to discredit Mike Moore because they don't like his movie and think that he rearranges things so that people appear to be saying one thing when they are really saying something else, that they are lying to the public for their own ends. This is exactly what presidents do. Presidents of any political stripe. But they don't use film to do this they use all the media of every country and then they call that politics. The United States government empowered Hussein, gave him his WMD to use against Iran and his own people, and when they were through with him the suckered him into attacking Kuwait so they could go in. Act two of this farce was when the borderline defective Bush ignored good intel and manipulated the rest and had Powell present a knowingly false case to the UN and then he started this mess. He sent and is still sending US troops into harms way over a lie, over oil and Israel, over money. Some things stand out in my mind. I remember the president inciting the Hungarians to revolt in '57 all but promising to help them and then when they did the United States sat on its hands. The same thing happened in Iraq after the first Gulf War. Hussein had a field day killing those poor buggers stupid enough to think that the United States would lift a finger to help them. The United States has a record of supporting repressive regimes if they think they can get something out of it. I remember the US supporting Castro. He was a media hero. Then he said the magic phrase, I am a Communist. and he was shunned. The US supported the Shah of Iran who was a real swine and look what we have in Iran today. The US supported the Afghanis until they defeated the Soviets and then we dropped them and allowed the Taliban to take over. The US supports the genocide of Israel which set off all this jihad business. The list goes on and on. We, the United States government and big business, need to clean up our own house before we go pointing fingers at anyone. Because of his political leanings Mike Moore chose to target the Republicans. Someone else targets the Democrats. Big deal. There is not a shred of honor or integrity in the entire administration. Anyone who displays such traits either quits or gets booted. A lot of people had hopes for Colin Powell but his presentation to the UN showed that any shred of integrity he had he abandoned. People think Mike Moore manipulates things so people think officials are saying something they're not? The following old joke is truly appropos. How do you know when a politician/business executive is lying? Their lips are moving. There is also another old saying, Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. I really take that one to heart after 8 years in the military and 33.5 months of Viet Nam time. If I get fooled again it will not be because I failed to get all the FACTS of a matter. I will certainly never believe either government or big business without a thorough examination of everything they say. They are bottom line entities and the only thing which matters to those types is money and power. People be damned. Environment be damned. Right and truth be damned. Just so you folks know what I am, I am 59 years old, have 8 years military service including time in the Nam, have children and grandchildren, am disabled since the Nam and live well below the poverty level (in the United States), do not involve myself in partisan politics for reasons of religion and logic, am not patriotic if patriotism means us and them but am patriotic if that means we and that we includes everyone worldwide, believe that the bottom line thinking is evil, believe that the lives of me and mine are no more or less important than that of them and theirs. If folks want to take pot shots at Mike Moore that is well and good, but you really ought to declare yourselves for what you are which is just as partisan as Mike. Mike has staked out his territory and declared his interests. He makes films and writes books. He is a political satirist and humorist. That is how he fights
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Is your best source a thoroughly slanted website in which the writer admits that he doesn't know what Moore was thinking, but basing his premise on his own interpretation of it? A website that chronicles a few deaths related to toasters as proof that Moore doesn't know what he's talking about? Not much support for your arguments out there, is there? I didn't see Bowling for Columbine as an anti-gun film. I saw it as presenting the absurdity of the anti-gun regulation faction of our society. If I knew how, I would have underlined anti-gun regulation. Moore presents a balanced view, in which he points out that there are other countries in which guns are prevalent as well as countries with more violent media than ours that don't have our problem with gun violence. He did make a case for better regulation of guns, but did not have a strict anti-gun stance at all. He seemed to me to be saying that there are no easy answers, and that taking a hard line stance on either side is a mistake. While on the subject, have you ever noticed how the NRA points to some despots and dictators as anti-gun, but never mentions all of the privately owned guns in Iraq. Have you ever seen Iraqi citizens on Fox news that weren't waving some sort of weapon around? Curious. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer an opinion on it, but the bank scene is only an example of the same process that would happen in any other legal weapon transaction. I think the NRA bashes are more incriminating of Moore's deceptive style. He spends quite a while dehumanizing the NRA and especially Mr. Heston. I had a very good friend see this movie and tell me Heston and the NRA were a bunch of jerks for jumping up to hold rallies right after the killings in Flint and Columbine. I must say, the 'evidence' in the movie was compelling. But some other people slowed down the feeds and picked through the internet. The 'rally' in Flint wasn't actually a Rally, Heston showed up to support Bush on his campaign, and it was 7 months after the incident. The movie shows a headline that says, 48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead either right before or right after the Heston clip. It insinuates the meeting was 48 hours after, and there is no way its not intentional. But the headline continues on to say something about Clinton making a statement about the incident and is completely unrelated to the NRA. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/hestonrally 2.htm He also uses the NRA meeting in Colorado right after the Columbine shootings as further ammo against the NRA. The video clips he shows of Heston are actually from another rally, and he fails to mention that the NRA cancelled most all of its other activities aside from the vote that by law is mandatory. I believe its a non-profit law to vote officials or something else similar. Irregardless the NRA had to have its meeting, which it did, but the NRA did nothing like what Moore shows. Frankly, I don't know what the whole NRA bash accomplished for his argument, but his entire basis against the NRA is made up. It looks more like he has a vendetta against the NRA and wants to publish it. So, quite frankly, I don't trust the guy, or most of what he says. He has been explicitly decpetive in BFC. He has something compelling with the Iraq war, but just like most of the media, its entirely one- sided. And his theory on the Saudi connection
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Message: 1 Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 10:10:29 -0400 From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fahrenheit 9/11 Went to see this last night with my son (age 14). He thought it was awesome. Unfortunately, I could not interest any of the women in the party (my wife and sisters) in seeing it, so they went to something fluffy (multi-screen cinema). For those that don't know, this is a Michael Moore movie that touches on the American political scene since the last federal election, including the Florida voting fiasco, and the media-supported disinformation campaign that led up to the invasion of Iraq. While it covers some of the same material as the book Dude, Where's My Country, there is also a major difference in approach and material covered. Not much that will come as news to those of us on the biofuels list. Still, seeing the actual footage of Bush-ites mouthing the words, or the egg- pelting of the Bush II inauguration parade and the Congress (Senators), with Al Gore presiding, repudiating the democratic rights of American voters all resonated for me in a way it did not in print. Should be required viewing for all U.S. voters prior to November 2004. Darryl McMahon I agree, great movie. Wonderful example of the David Duke Anti-war crowd and how they lie, half-lie, and otherwise distort the truth. It should win some sort fo award for best example of the big lie technique, where Moore states at the beginning that all independent investigations of the Florida show that Gore won. The truth is the opposite, they all show that Gore lost. But. what would you expect from a Social Democrat like Moore, just another variation on the National Socialist Workers Party line and a parroting of their leader. See also: http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Backwoods_Bob wrote: Message: 1 Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 10:10:29 -0400 From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fahrenheit 9/11 Went to see this last night with my son (age 14). He thought it was awesome. Unfortunately, I could not interest any of the women in the party (my wife and sisters) in seeing it, so they went to something fluffy (multi-screen cinema). For those that don't know, this is a Michael Moore movie that touches on the American political scene since the last federal election, including the Florida voting fiasco, and the media-supported disinformation campaign that led up to the invasion of Iraq. While it covers some of the same material as the book Dude, Where's My Country, there is also a major difference in approach and material covered. Not much that will come as news to those of us on the biofuels list. Still, seeing the actual footage of Bush-ites mouthing the words, or the egg- pelting of the Bush II inauguration parade and the Congress (Senators), with Al Gore presiding, repudiating the democratic rights of American voters all resonated for me in a way it did not in print. Should be required viewing for all U.S. voters prior to November 2004. Darryl McMahon I agree, great movie. Have you seen it? Wonderful example of the David Duke Anti-war crowd and how they lie, half-lie, and otherwise distort the truth. It should win some sort fo award for best example of the big lie technique, No no no, you've got it all wrong - that's the one you believe, and Moore didn't tell it, his movie's about those who did, and are. where Moore states at the beginning that all independent investigations of the Florida show that Gore won. The truth is the opposite, they all show that Gore lost. Now why should we have to go through all this all over again? Tell you what, why don't you just go and try to convince the list archives, I'm sure it'll lend you a willing and unbiased ear and it won't mind the wasted nanoseconds. The url's at the end of every message you receive. DON'T try to continue this discussion until you've checked the archives. (Hint: search for Palast.) Something else, here on this list and in the world at large, if you want to counter something that a great many people hold to be true you need to offer a little more than just your unsupported opinion for it to have a chance of gaining any credibility. It's up to you to prove it, not up to us to disprove it. You've been here for two years, you sure haven't paid a lot of attention if you don't know that, and if you haven't seen the several previous discussions on Florida. That's your problem, not ours. Go and do your homework. But. what would you expect from a Social Democrat like Moore, just another variation on the National Socialist Workers Party line and a parroting of their leader. :-) Well now, there's the Socialist Workers Party, the Socialist Party USA, the National Socialist Japanese Workers Party, the Iran National-Socialist Workers Party and so on, but what exactly is the National Socialist Workers Party? I suspect that according to Godwin's Law you just lost. See also: http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/ Sigh... Okay, your technique of labelling and dismissal, but with some substance behind it - the New York Post? Owned and operated by that great champion of democracy and truth Rupert Murdoch? Along with just about every other medium you view as gospel, I'll be bound. I suppose you think that other Post columnist, Steven Milloy, knows all about science and what's junk and what's not, no fear or favour? Murdoch and the New York Post are major culprits in what Darryl correctly termed the media-supported disinformation campaign that led up to the invasion of Iraq. Keith Addison List owner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I should send you a picture of me from high school. Of course, now I'm just older, uglier and fatter. I guess that means that nothing that I have to say is relevant. Sorry for ever posting here. As far as doing away with a number of the traditions and morals of this country (I assume you are talking of the USA, and not one of the numerous other countries represented here), I think that is just what Mr. Moore is fighting against. Have you ever heard of a thing commonly referred to as the Constitution? Bill of Rights? The traditions and morals contained in these documents are being weakened every day. I thank the God of my understanding that there are patriots like Mr. Moore willing to stand up to those that are destroying all that makes the US great. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, it is a little slanted isn't it? I for one do not care to see the country made over into the image that Michael Moore would like to see. I have seen pictures of that punk from his high school days reminds me too much of the hell raisers and agitators that are largely responsible for doing away with a number of the traditions and morals of this country. He still looks it, just older and uglier and fatter. Cliff Jobe Subject: Fahrenheit 9/11 Went to see this last night with my son (age 14). He thought it was awesome. Unfortunately, I could not interest any of the women in the party (my wife and sisters) in seeing it, so they went to something fluffy (multi- screen cinema). For those that don't know, this is a Michael Moore movie that touches on the American political scene since the last federal election, including the Florida voting fiasco, and the media-supported disinformation campaign that led up to the invasion of Iraq. While it covers some of the same material as the book Dude, Where's My Country, there is also a major difference in approach and material covered. Not much that will come as news to those of us on the biofuels list. Still, seeing the actual footage of Bush-ites mouthing the words, or the egg- pelting of the Bush II inauguration parade and the Congress (Senators), with Al Gore presiding, repudiating the democratic rights of American voters all resonated for me in a way it did not in print. Should be required viewing for all U.S. voters prior to November 2004. Darryl McMahon -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? __ __ __ __ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- Yahoo! Groups Links -- -- Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I hope no voters base their vote on anything that Michael Moore writes or films. All of his premises and arguements are based on skewed data and emotion. He really has a very poor arguement. Its very sad that people would take something, written by someone with severe political motivations and uses human emotions to get a reaction in stead of logic, as truth and fact. Do us all a favor, do your own research, otherwise, don't vote. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I happen to be a staunch political independent who trusts in nothing but gut instinct to guide my decisions on Election Day. My instincts have saved my skin in countless ways over the years, and they've very seldom failed me. I don't need to surf the web or listen to blowhard pundits on the left, right, or in between to make up my mind. When the supposed leader of the free world sits in an elementary school looking like a deer in the headlights for seven minutes after his chief of staff informs him that the country is under attack, that's all I really need to know. Bush choked under the pressure, so as far as I'm concerned he can stick to driving cars into ditches, and turn America's keys over to someone else who isn't so intoxicated with power. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 9:18 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I hope no voters base their vote on anything that Michael Moore writes or films. All of his premises and arguements are based on skewed data and emotion. He really has a very poor arguement. Its very sad that people would take something, written by someone with severe political motivations and uses human emotions to get a reaction in stead of logic, as truth and fact. Do us all a favor, do your own research, otherwise, don't vote. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I hope you're not voting then. The last Michael Moore book I read had 26 pages regarding works cited. He said himself that his publications aren't fair. At least he doesn't claim to be when he's not. [foxnews.com] -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope no voters base their vote on anything that Michael Moore writes or films. All of his premises and arguements are based on skewed data and emotion. He really has a very poor arguement. Its very sad that people would take something, written by someone with severe political motivations and uses human emotions to get a reaction in stead of logic, as truth and fact. Do us all a favor, do your own research, otherwise, don't vote. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
He could site 500 works for all I care, it doesn't mean he used the information accurately or in context. He is not a source of information, he is a source of entertainment. He slants information to make his point, and his point alone. He is like any other media outlet, its a lot easier to twist the facts to your point than to properly interpert the facts and come up with the truth. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
FW: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
See below Regards, Dermot -Original Message- From: Dermot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 June 2004 17:32 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 Pretty strong words there, partner. Can you back them up with examples of where Moore has lied or skewed facts? Mere assertion is not enough! Regards, Dermot -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 June 2004 14:18 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I hope no voters base their vote on anything that Michael Moore writes or films. All of his premises and arguements are based on skewed data and emotion. He really has a very poor arguement. Its very sad that people would take something, written by someone with severe political motivations and uses human emotions to get a reaction in stead of logic, as truth and fact. Do us all a favor, do your own research, otherwise, don't vote. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I would certainly like to hear what you would have done in that situation. If he had jumped up and ran out of the room he would have caused panic. Of course then everyone on the left would say he showed bad form. If he made a statement right then and there, he would be speaking on almost no information. There was nothing he could do from where he was, there was nothing anyone could do. Perhaps he should have run to the local phone booth switched outfits and flown out to save the day, but aside from that, everyone was entirely helpless. Honestly, I don't think I'll be voting for Bush, but I don't think he did anything wrong before, during and the period after, 9/11. I don't think anyone would have, or could have done anything better without a seer to predict the future. My problems lie with his justifications for the Iraq war, buts thats another issue entirely. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
For those of us outside the US, the movie is called Celcius 488 Pierre --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Went to see this last night with my son (age 14). He thought it was awesome. Unfortunately, I could not interest any of the women in the party (my wife and sisters) in seeing it, so they went to something fluffy (multi- screen cinema). For those that don't know, this is a Michael Moore movie that touches on the American political scene since the last federal election, including the Florida voting fiasco, and the media-supported disinformation campaign that led up to the invasion of Iraq. While it covers some of the same material as the book Dude, Where's My Country, there is also a major difference in approach and material covered. Not much that will come as news to those of us on the biofuels list. Still, seeing the actual footage of Bush-ites mouthing the words, or the egg- pelting of the Bush II inauguration parade and the Congress (Senators), with Al Gore presiding, repudiating the democratic rights of American voters all resonated for me in a way it did not in print. Should be required viewing for all U.S. voters prior to November 2004. Darryl McMahon -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I hope you're not voting then. The last Michael Moore book I read had 26 pages regarding works cited. Which is 100% more than Randall's managed to do, along with most of the people who say just that about him and his work. Short of non-sources and anti-sources like the NY Post, the Washington Times, the Weekly Standard and so on, that is. He said himself that his publications aren't fair. At least he doesn't claim to be when he's not. [foxnews.com] -- That's a dog's breakfast Martin. You can see journalists and media being grossly and deliberately unfair while sticking meticulously to the letter of fairness and duly giving both sides, and you can also see journalists being extremely fair while taking up the cudgels in an issue of social justice and neglecting the other side completely - which is not necessarily being biased: when people are guilty they're guilty, saying so and proving it is not bias, handing them the mike so they can spin out a few slimy excuses is not necessarily being fair. Nor are facts and emotion necessarily at odds with each other, at times they fit together most appropriately. Michael Moore's a bit like that, though he does give the other side a say. The skewed data bit amuses me a bit though. That line seems to come out kind of automatically with some people whenever you press the Michael Moore button. I think he's careful. It's a happy sign that his movie's doing so well (Hoagy's posts) and that Greg Palast's book is selling so well in the US, and quite a few others of that ilk too. There's hope, spinmeisters notwithstanding, maybe the web they weave is unravelling. The whole world's very bothered about all this right now, with good reason, and they've every right to be. A lot of people who aren't Americans are placing a lot of faith and a lot of hope and goodwill in what it really is that really makes America and Americans really great, and that it will reassert itself. Not an idle hope, I hope. This list is a great microcosm sometimes. Regards Keith -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope no voters base their vote on anything that Michael Moore writes or films. All of his premises and arguements are based on skewed data and emotion. He really has a very poor arguement. Its very sad that people would take something, written by someone with severe political motivations and uses human emotions to get a reaction in stead of logic, as truth and fact. Do us all a favor, do your own research, otherwise, don't vote. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Greets...A newbie to the list (me) chimes in ... Im still learning about biofuels and really appreciate this amazing list and Keith's great work keeping it going. I want to have the ability to make batches of biodiesel in the future and am in the early stages of research right now. Intro over now to the point. F911 is an op-ed film and does not pretend to be a piece of journalism - yet the way the right talks about it, you'd think Moore was in the same category with Jason Blair. There is nothing inherently false about propaganda. (Citation: Webster's New World Dictionary, Second College Edition, 1986.) Usually it is based on falsehoods, but not necessarily. No one can credibly say that most of the prewar reporting on Iraq's WMD or links to AQ was objective or balanced or even honest. Yet, after the fact, when we have so much more empirical information to go on, Moore is labeled a propagandist and Judith Miller still has her job. All I can say is, this is not a sustainable situation. Most Americans (if they didnt already know it) are waking up to the fact that something is very wrong with this administration, the cognitive dissonance this brings to the devoted flocks on the right notwithstanding. With over 800 Americans and perhaps 10,000 Iraqis dead, and with a strong, resurgent and global Al Qaeda network, it is a mistake not easily admitted. For more see www.costofwar.com I'll be back later regarding biofuels. Here's a strong factual defense of the movie. Cheers, Sam Johnston San Francisco, CA - http://www.alternet.org/movies/19062/ Moore Light, Moore heat The Progress Report. Posted June 28, 2004. Even before 'Fahrenheit 9/11' opened at theaters, the White House and its right-wing allies tried to smear both the messenger and the message. But the facts support the film. Even before Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 opened in theaters last Friday, the White House and its right-wing allies sought to smear both the film and Moore personally. Last month, White House communications director Dan Bartlett said the movie was so outrageously false it's not even worth comment, even though he had not yet seen the film. Meanwhile, the Hollywood Reporter discovered that big-time conservative donors are funding a slew of anti-Moore activities. Following the White House's tactic of attacking critics' patriotism, the right-wing is also apparently bankrolling a movie called Michael Moore Hates America. But despite conservatives' best efforts to discredit the film, the NY Times notes, central assertions of fact in 'Fahrenheit 9/11' are supported by the public record. When the movie was aired at the Cannes Film Festival, it won top prize from a panel made up of mostly American and British judges. ACCURATE - NEW REPORT SAYS SAUDI FLIGHTS OCCURRED ON 9/13: Critics have accused Moore of wrongly claiming a group of Saudis were allowed to fly out of the United States on September 13, when much of American airspace was still closed. In fact, the movie accurately reports that 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave after September 13 - a fact well documented by the 9/11 Commission. Additionally, new reports prove that Saudi flights did occur on 9/13, despite three years of Bush administration denials. As the St. Petersburg Times reports, on September 13,with most of the nation's air traffic still grounded, a small jet landed at Tampa International Airport, picked up three young Saudi men and left for Lexington, KY. The Saudis then took another flight out of the country. Because the information is so new, it was not in the 9/11 Commission's preliminary report. Subsequently, however, the commission has asked the Tampa airport for any information about 'a chartered flight with six people, including a Saudi prince, that flew from Tampa, Florida on or about Sept. 13, 2001.' ACCURATE - BUSH WAS NOT FOCUSED ON TERRORISM: In the movie, Moore charges that President Bush did not pay enough attention to pre-9/11 warnings that al Qaeda was about to attack. Instead of focusing on terrorism, charges the movie, the president spent 42 percent of his first eight months in office on vacation. That figure came not from a conspiracy-hungry Web site but from a calculation by The Washington Post. Read American Progress's report Truth Consequences: The Bush Administration and 9/11 for a comprehensive history of how the White House underfunded counter-terrorism and downgraded terrorism as a priority before 9/11. See American Progress's new Complete Saudi Primer - a guide to everything you always wanted to know about the Bush-Saudi connection but were afraid to ask. DISNEY'S EFFORT TO CENSOR MICHAEL MOORE: At the direction of CEO Michael Eisner (who is a Bush campaign contributor), the Walt Disney Company prohibited its Miramax division from distributing Fahrenheit 911. The company enjoys a cozy relationship with President
Re: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I understand the fact that this is propeganda. But, being that it is controversial, and that it does have some flaws, there is a very good reason to have public discussion about/against/for it. The man is deliberately trying to sway the vote to get Bush out of office with this movie. And given the loose interpertation of fact and the fact that people are taking it as a documentary, I think there is very good reason for public outcry against it. Sorry to make the comparison, but, I would speak out against Nazi progapaganda if I thought that it was not well supported, and in that case even if it was well supported. Just because it is made as propaganda does not mean it shouldn't be argued against. In fact, given its nature, it should be focused on and made clear to everyone that it is not documentarial. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In his documentary about how bad GM is for closing the Flint plant, he shows evictions and people getting kicked out onto the street. It's no result of the GM closing, the person didn't work for GM but it made a good picture for his point. Do you have any references for this? I don't remember the scene in Roger and Me that you refer to, but I do believe that if the person didn't work for GM, the film wouldn't have represented him as working for GM. And, if he in fact didn't work for GM, in a town that the unemployment rate suddenly shoots to 50%, a lot of people that don't work for the main employer in town also lose their jobs. They might not have been let go by that employer, but the loss of their job is a direct result of that employer's actions none the less. Again, I don't remember the specific scene you are talking about, but since you make only conjecture it is impossible to know exactly how to respond. In Bowling for Columbine he references a little 6 year old who got hold of a gun and killed someone or maybe even himself. It was evidence though of how guns should be out of every home. I do remember this scene. He was referring to a 6 year old in Michigan, who got a hold of a gun that was in the house and killed one of his classmates. He was inadequately supervised while his mother was being bussed 45 miles away for her minimum wage job. If I remember correctly, she worked two minimum wage jobs back to back before getting back on the bus back home. Not exactly the crack head that you make her out to be. And, the film never said that guns should be out of every home. Moore pointed out his membership in the NRA and his own gun ownership in the film. He was promoting responsible gun ownership. A pretty moderate stand, in my opinion. As for misrepresentations and half truths, I see more in your post than all of the Moore films I have seen so far. Brian Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
