Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
Actually, if you can show the local health inspector the records of the temperature of your compost, he has no problem with it. Bright Blessings, Kim girl_mark_fire wrote: Don't forget about methane digesters and human (or animal, vegetable, or anything in between) waste. Someone in my social circle apparently replaced their (urban) bathroom toilet with a marine macerator toilet which pumps the human waste into a methane digester- which produces gas (and decent compost apparently). Of course you use the methane as cooking fuel (and use the compost to help grow food)- which of course leads to more human waste to feed the digester with. A bit of a closed circle. And more low-tech is just building a composting toilet and using the compost for growing food (tho your local health inspector might not like the latter use of it). mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
I'd vote for copper for a few reasons too (though if you ever see a copper mine you might think I'm the devil for recommending this. Check out the Phelps-Dodge copper mine in Clifton-Morency (?) Arizona for one- I think it;s the biggest open pit copper mine in the us or in the world or something like that- nasty!) One point not touched on below is economics. copper costs a lot- and it's worth a lot on the scrap market. Being someone who both builds and does a lot of salvaging, I can tell you that when a crew rips steep pipes out of a remodel they usually go into the landfill. I occasionally salvage steel pipes/fittings from the local metal recycling bin I know and love, but they are relatively rare- and we're in a town with a high level of recycling awareness. Copper on the other hand is universally understood to pay as scrap- so if something does go wrong with the stuff (like a wasteful remodel) it's much more likely to get sold to a scrap dealer and turned into more copper. PVC is nonrecyclable- and the production process for making vinyl is toxic to plant workers and the immediate environment where it's produced (though that is also be true for copper, I don't know how it all stacks up of course). mark PVC is prone to leaks. It is also prone to splitting in cold regions. Many people swear by it. But for my money I would classify it as the cheap (not necessarily poor) person's way out and put it in the same category as cast brass - reasonably functional but very problematic and probably every bit as and more costly in the long run. Your best bet, in my not so always humble opinion (IMNSAHO), is the heavier Type L copper (blue print on the tubing) or K (even thicker with green print on the tubing). Type M is frequently used but is thinner walled. (I would still rate type M as better than PVC.) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
Don't forget about methane digesters and human (or animal, vegetable, or anything in between) waste. Someone in my social circle apparently replaced their (urban) bathroom toilet with a marine macerator toilet which pumps the human waste into a methane digester- which produces gas (and decent compost apparently). Of course you use the methane as cooking fuel (and use the compost to help grow food)- which of course leads to more human waste to feed the digester with. A bit of a closed circle. And more low-tech is just building a composting toilet and using the compost for growing food (tho your local health inspector might not like the latter use of it). mark Not that it's the same topic, but in addition to human waste, both solid and liquid, having perhaps some chemical use that never seems to be used, I imagine that, in the long run, we will see it as having some thermal use, as it contains body heat which we are, under present methods, simply throwing away as quickly as possible. So long as I'm on that topic, another toilet-related-one is that I've been hanging out with a friend who has a dog. Is there some reason that we can't seem to find a way to make it common to install a toilet in homes that dogs could use? We idolize them for being such intelligent friendly trainable-in-some-ways pets. I just wonder if they couldn't be trained in that way. It's amazing how folks are slaves to having to take their dogs out for walks x number of times per day. Sometimes I wonder just who is taking whom for a walk - but for their dogs how many of those folks would get enough exercise? You're right though. I don't think it should be more troublesome, or much more troublesome to make such arrangements for dogs than it is for a cat. Our dog at the Beach House in Hong Kong... well, she wasn't our dog really, she was an independent, she came with the house, a very cool place for a dog. Probably we were her dog. Anyway, she was around all the time but in three years I never saw her take a crap. Only a few times did I see her having a pee. She was extremely bright - more than a few times she proved she was a lot more with it than some of the locals around there - and she seemed to have figured that crapping about the place wasn't a good way of making friends and influencing people (which she was VERY good at). So she had some place that she went to up on the hillside somewhere, I'd see her going off there sometimes but never figured just where it was. I'm sure any dog is capable of learning such things. Here in Japan, or at least in the cities, people go out with their dogs and a little dustpan affair in a plastic bag, and scoop it all up afterwards. No dogturds in the streets. Very nice. Especially after living in Amsterdam, where it was almost impossible to go anywhere without stepping on a dogturd, horrible. I don't know if it's still like that. Paris has special places for dogs, IIRC, I think a lot of places do these days. So, yes, why not homes? Maybe you could get the folks who sell exercise bikes to sponsor them. g Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
influencing people (which she was VERY good at). So she had some place that she went to up on the hillside somewhere, I'd see her going off there sometimes but never figured just where it was. I'm sure any dog is capable of learning such things. Apparently, she didn't just learn such a thing. She *devised* a place for herself to go, given that no one seemed to be dictating the rules to her. Basically, she did *more* than a human is asked to do to make accomodations for herself (unless there's something we don't know about her upbringing where she was told what to do). I think dogs might pretty much do what they're told to do in respect of potty activities. At least it would be worth testing this theory and, if it held, installing toilets that dogs could use (i.e.: at floor level), as the ones in place are clearly not ones they could easily use, given their different body construction. I'm sure that wealthy folks might be inclined to give it a try, maybe making entirely separate bathroom accomodations. I just don't quite understand why this has not been tried. Maybe it has. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
Many dogs can be taught to do their business in the prescribed place much like cats that have been taught to use the human facilities. The problem that I have not seen solved is one of a flushing system that works in a facility that would resemble a shower stall to accommodate both gender of dogs. It is an interesting idea and I would like to hear of any hardware that may be available. Regards, Vern influencing people (which she was VERY good at). So she had some place that she went to up on the hillside somewhere, I'd see her going off there sometimes but never figured just where it was. I'm sure any dog is capable of learning such things. Apparently, she didn't just learn such a thing.Ê She *devised* a place for herself to go, given that no one seemed to be dictating the rules to her. Basically, she did *more* than a human is asked to do to make accomodations for herself (unless there's something we don't know about her upbringing where she was told what to do). I think dogs might pretty much do what they're told to do in respect of potty activities.Ê At least it would be worth testing this theory and, if it held, installing toilets that dogs could use (i.e.: at floor level), as the ones in place are clearly not ones they could easily use, given their different body construction.ÊÊ I'm sure that wealthy folks might be inclined to give it a try, maybe making entirely separate bathroom accomodations.Ê I just don't quite understand why this has not been tried. Maybe it has. . Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
Hi MM influencing people (which she was VERY good at). So she had some place that she went to up on the hillside somewhere, I'd see her going off there sometimes but never figured just where it was. I'm sure any dog is capable of learning such things. Apparently, she didn't just learn such a thing. She *devised* a place for herself to go, given that no one seemed to be dictating the rules to her. Dictate rules to The Beautiful Nibbles?? No way! Yes, you got it right, she figured it, as usual. Extraordinary beast - I've known and had a lot of dogs, but Nibbles was all out on her own, and one of the sweetest creatures I've ever met. We still miss her very much, I guess we always will. Basically, she did *more* than a human is asked to do to make accomodations for herself (unless there's something we don't know about her upbringing where she was told what to do). Nobody knows that, but it's a safe guess that whatever she knew she figured out for herself. It seems she'd been having a rough time so she ran away from home. So dig where she chose to run to. There was a South African woman on Lantau island who ran a restaurant, lots of great South African food - ie, lots of great MEAT. Dolla finished up at the restaurant one night and found Nibbles in her van. Never seen her before, but she couldn't get her out of the van (I've also encountered that problem with her), so she took her home. Dolla was into rescuing stray dogs and loving them... Typical Nibbles-type choice, to get herself adopted by a dog-loving lady with endless supplies of spare meat. Anyway Nibbles ran away from Dolla too and adopted the Beach House, not too far away. And thus, eventually, us, when we moved in there. Dolla would drop by every night after the restaurant closed to collect her dog. Nibbles would go with her, get into the excess steaks, chops and sausages and so on, and be back at the Beach House an hour later, wearing a particular grin she had, one of many. I think dogs might pretty much do what they're told to do in respect of potty activities. At least it would be worth testing this theory and, if it held, installing toilets that dogs could use (i.e.: at floor level), as the ones in place are clearly not ones they could easily use, given their different body construction. I'm sure that wealthy folks might be inclined to give it a try, maybe making entirely separate bathroom accomodations. I just don't quite understand why this has not been tried. Maybe it has. Maybe. Considering all the lab tests with rats and so on where they have to pull a lever or something to get food once they've been good little rats and done what they're supposed to, it shouldn't be too hard to get a dog to step on a flush lever once it's done. Preferably into a composting toilet, as Mark suggests. Check out this amazing movie (top right): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2178920.stm Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I asked a plumber today what he would look for in buying a new house. He said: 1. No slab dwellings with plumbing built-in (apparently a going- strong method around here) because when the plumbing goes bad, how do you get at it to fix it? It may or may not be 'approved' where you are, but putting a Sewer Pipe underground as a conduit works for me. Flexible Plastic pipes can them be pulled out and repaired/replaced as needed. MM Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 19:31, you wrote: Many dogs can be taught to do their business in the prescribed place much like cats that have been taught to use the human facilities. The problem that I have not seen solved is one of a flushing system that works in a facility that would resemble a shower stall to accommodate both gender of dogs. It is an interesting idea and I would like to hear of any hardware that may be available. Regards, Vern There is a chap on the Gold Coast, SE Queensland, Australia, that has patented a toilet for dogs. Similar to Squat toilet I think. regards Doug Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/abvVKB/pEZFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
I sometimes joke about this, Dogs are like men, they have to be trained to keep clean and we all know how difficult that is. Cats are like women, they have an instinct of keeping them nice and clean. You will only have to have a box of sand and they will use it without training, as long as you maintain it. It is always exceptions, so nobody has to be offended. Hakan At 09:31 PM 3/9/2003 +1100, you wrote: On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 19:31, you wrote: Many dogs can be taught to do their business in the prescribed place much like cats that have been taught to use the human facilities. The problem that I have not seen solved is one of a flushing system that works in a facility that would resemble a shower stall to accommodate both gender of dogs. It is an interesting idea and I would like to hear of any hardware that may be available. Regards, Vern There is a chap on the Gold Coast, SE Queensland, Australia, that has patented a toilet for dogs. Similar to Squat toilet I think. regards Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
Maybe. Considering all the lab tests with rats and so on where they have to pull a lever or something to get food once they've been good little rats and done what they're supposed to, it shouldn't be too hard to get a dog to step on a flush lever once it's done. Preferably into a composting toilet, as Mark suggests. Funny how we go from trying to invent a toilet that animals can use so that we are spared the ridiculousness of having to tend for them (they've been waiting for how many centuries for us to put ourselves in their position and realize that our human toilets are not shaped in a way that they could think about using?... those pesky smart ape-like creatures that take care of us they can invent a car contraption to take us places but they can't figure out that we'd like to take a shot at the water-toilet thingy) straight to not wanting the waste to go to waste, and yet so few humans think about trying to make use of human waste, even though every single person on Earth makes a fair amount of it, every day. Let me reitterate, just so the thought is not lost, that waste has *thermal* value as well as chemical value, though one might I suppose be sacrificing some of the latter if one harvested the former. The flush lever, while well worth trying, would perhaps not be entirely necessary. One could have it set up similar to a public restroom equipped with light-sensors that sense when a person or animal is starting and when they're done (apparently we humans forget sometimes when to flush or turn off the water, but still we allow ourselves into the restrooms). MM Check out this amazing movie (top right): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2178920.stm Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
H. I know some people who could use a box of sand. Thanks for the suggestion Hakan. Kirk -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 5:54 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing I sometimes joke about this, Dogs are like men, they have to be trained to keep clean and we all know how difficult that is. Cats are like women, they have an instinct of keeping them nice and clean. You will only have to have a box of sand and they will use it without training, as long as you maintain it. It is always exceptions, so nobody has to be offended. Hakan At 09:31 PM 3/9/2003 +1100, you wrote: On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 19:31, you wrote: Many dogs can be taught to do their business in the prescribed place much like cats that have been taught to use the human facilities. The problem that I have not seen solved is one of a flushing system that works in a facility that would resemble a shower stall to accommodate both gender of dogs. It is an interesting idea and I would like to hear of any hardware that may be available. Regards, Vern There is a chap on the Gold Coast, SE Queensland, Australia, that has patented a toilet for dogs. Similar to Squat toilet I think. regards Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.458 / Virus Database: 257 - Release Date: 2/24/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
My sister has a Pekinese, that she keeps in the bathroom, when she goes out for any length of time, and that dog will jump into the tub and do it's business there. There is no reason that a shower pan would not work as well as a tub, just check it and hose it off every day. Greg H. - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 23:25 Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing So long as I'm on that topic, another toilet-related-one is that I've been hanging out with a friend who has a dog. Is there some reason that we can't seem to find a way to make it common to install a toilet in homes that dogs could use? We idolize them for being such intelligent friendly trainable-in-some-ways pets. I just wonder if they couldn't be trained in that way. It's amazing how folks are slaves to having to take their dogs out for walks x number of times per day. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Web Hosting makes it easy to build a professional web site. Sign up today and get free set-up, domain name, and more (up to a $100 value) http://us.click.yahoo.com/m3JvCD/wCpFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
There is one thing to say for plastic piping, it acts as a carbon sink. Now if the carbon used, can be taken from renewable sources, we could eliminate some greenhouse gas. Greg H. - Original Message - From: girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 00:57 Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing PVC is nonrecyclable- and the production process for making vinyl is toxic to plant workers and the immediate environment where it's produced (though that is also be true for copper, I don't know how it all stacks up of course). Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
How about a simple photocell, timer, and solenoid valve setup, like they have in some restrooms at some airports? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 02:10 Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing Maybe. Considering all the lab tests with rats and so on where they have to pull a lever or something to get food once they've been good little rats and done what they're supposed to, it shouldn't be too hard to get a dog to step on a flush lever once it's done. Preferably into a composting toilet, as Mark suggests. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 00:18:43 -0800, you wrote: oops meant Polyethylene pipe... - Original *** Is quest that poly butynol (sp) flexible pipe simiar to what you find behind refrigerator as water /ice makers lines? I think he did say that quest was of Polyethylene, yes. A great idea a few years back was to plumb a house similar to electrical...individual pipes to each fixture instead of a central pipe that branched off. The pipe was sent up through the ceiling, where it was easily to access, plus if a leak or maintenance work was needed, only the single fixture could be shut off rather than the whole house. Also made it easier to locate a leak, since you could check individual lines. Quick connects at both ends meant no soldering, funcky glueing, or having to thread and tape joints. The tubing was on long rolls and you cut the length you needed...splices where possible but not recommended. Also crimping was a nono since it could weaken the tubing and create a leak later. What other systems? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
this soon, for one. What do you heat it with, anyway - preferably biogas maybe, or a WVO burner? Post just in about treating the wash-water, also a plumbing subject - or rather less plumbing (use a graywater system). Distilling fuel ethanol requires cooling water, again a plumbing matter. And so on. Anyway there've been long discussions here about energy-efficient building and buildings, which included a lot of general stuff. No problem at all, as far as I'm concerned, from the moderator's point of view. So please feel free. Not that it's the same topic, but in addition to human waste, both solid and liquid, having perhaps some chemical use that never seems to be used, I imagine that, in the long run, we will see it as having some thermal use, as it contains body heat which we are, under present methods, simply throwing away as quickly as possible. So long as I'm on that topic, another toilet-related-one is that I've been hanging out with a friend who has a dog. Is there some reason that we can't seem to find a way to make it common to install a toilet in homes that dogs could use? We idolize them for being such intelligent friendly trainable-in-some-ways pets. I just wonder if they couldn't be trained in that way. It's amazing how folks are slaves to having to take their dogs out for walks x number of times per day. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT: sustainable plumbing
Hi MM this soon, for one. What do you heat it with, anyway - preferably biogas maybe, or a WVO burner? Post just in about treating the wash-water, also a plumbing subject - or rather less plumbing (use a graywater system). Distilling fuel ethanol requires cooling water, again a plumbing matter. And so on. Anyway there've been long discussions here about energy-efficient building and buildings, which included a lot of general stuff. No problem at all, as far as I'm concerned, from the moderator's point of view. So please feel free. Not that it's the same topic, but in addition to human waste, both solid and liquid, having perhaps some chemical use that never seems to be used, I imagine that, in the long run, we will see it as having some thermal use, as it contains body heat which we are, under present methods, simply throwing away as quickly as possible. So long as I'm on that topic, another toilet-related-one is that I've been hanging out with a friend who has a dog. Is there some reason that we can't seem to find a way to make it common to install a toilet in homes that dogs could use? We idolize them for being such intelligent friendly trainable-in-some-ways pets. I just wonder if they couldn't be trained in that way. It's amazing how folks are slaves to having to take their dogs out for walks x number of times per day. Sometimes I wonder just who is taking whom for a walk - but for their dogs how many of those folks would get enough exercise? You're right though. I don't think it should be more troublesome, or much more troublesome to make such arrangements for dogs than it is for a cat. Our dog at the Beach House in Hong Kong... well, she wasn't our dog really, she was an independent, she came with the house, a very cool place for a dog. Probably we were her dog. Anyway, she was around all the time but in three years I never saw her take a crap. Only a few times did I see her having a pee. She was extremely bright - more than a few times she proved she was a lot more with it than some of the locals around there - and she seemed to have figured that crapping about the place wasn't a good way of making friends and influencing people (which she was VERY good at). So she had some place that she went to up on the hillside somewhere, I'd see her going off there sometimes but never figured just where it was. I'm sure any dog is capable of learning such things. Here in Japan, or at least in the cities, people go out with their dogs and a little dustpan affair in a plastic bag, and scoop it all up afterwards. No dogturds in the streets. Very nice. Especially after living in Amsterdam, where it was almost impossible to go anywhere without stepping on a dogturd, horrible. I don't know if it's still like that. Paris has special places for dogs, IIRC, I think a lot of places do these days. So, yes, why not homes? Maybe you could get the folks who sell exercise bikes to sponsor them. g Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
