Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Kim, I was struck by your statement Honest people do not need to fear surveillance. I think this implies that those conducting the surveillance are also honest people, which I don't think can be guaranteed. Surveillance records can be doctored. Further, there are certain acts that can be honest, which one might still wish not to have recorded or made public. Perhaps I am too cynical, but I believe that honest people may have the most to fear from surveillance. Loss of privacy for one. And dishonest people likely know enough to evade or defeat surveillance, so they possibly have less to fear than honest people. Darryl (who is crazy enough to use his real name on the Internet) Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually for those of us who always drive defensively, the black box could be a witness for us. Honest people do not need to fear surveillance. My parents taught me that driving was a privilege, not a right. I see no problem with this and considering the road rage and other things I see on the highway, all the time, I think this is a good idea. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:11 AM 2/5/2005, you wrote: http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1id=75424 Your car is most likely recording things about your driving and that information can be used against you if you have a traffic accident. Most people don't know their car has a black box. They are similar to ones in airplanes, although they don't record voices, but they do record plenty of other things that happen before a crash. News on 6 reporter Lori Fullbright has been investigating. Even though it's silver, it's called a black box or airbag sensor or event data recorder. Its main job is safety, it operates the airbags, but it also records information and because of that, a Glenpool teenager could be charged with negligent homicide. It'll be the first time anyone's been charged in Tulsa County based on a black box, but you can bet, it won't be the last. Last year, a 19 year old man took his sister's 2002 Trans-Am out for a test drive the day after she bought it. He lost control and hit two utility poles; the crash killed his passenger, who was also 19. The driver had no idea the car would become a witness against him. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
world. I live as I want the world to be, and in that, I help create a good world. The philosophical base on which social contract is based, means that we only have privacy within our own domain. To expect privacy in the public sector, to me seems strange. But then, I just finished re-reading Hobbes: Leviathan. Frankly, I can not think of a thing I do that would embarrass me. If someone wants a picture of me sitting on the throne that bad, what a sad life they must have. But I would not be embarrassed, just sad for the person. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:03 PM 2/10/2005, you wrote: Kim, I was struck by your statement Honest people do not need to fear surveillance. I think this implies that those conducting the surveillance are also honest people, which I don't think can be guaranteed. Surveillance records can be doctored. Further, there are certain acts that can be honest, which one might still wish not to have recorded or made public. Perhaps I am too cynical, but I believe that honest people may have the most to fear from surveillance. Loss of privacy for one. And dishonest people likely know enough to evade or defeat surveillance, so they possibly have less to fear than honest people. Darryl (who is crazy enough to use his real name on the Internet) Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually for those of us who always drive defensively, the black box could be a witness for us. Honest people do not need to fear surveillance. My parents taught me that driving was a privilege, not a right. I see no problem with this and considering the road rage and other things I see on the highway, all the time, I think this is a good idea. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:11 AM 2/5/2005, you wrote: http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1id=75424 Your car is most likely recording things about your driving and that information can be used against you if you have a traffic accident. Most people don't know their car has a black box. They are similar to ones in airplanes, although they don't record voices, but they do record plenty of other things that happen before a crash. News on 6 reporter Lori Fullbright has been investigating. Even though it's silver, it's called a black box or airbag sensor or event data recorder. Its main job is safety, it operates the airbags, but it also records information and because of that, a Glenpool teenager could be charged with negligent homicide. It'll be the first time anyone's been charged in Tulsa County based on a black box, but you can bet, it won't be the last. Last year, a 19 year old man took his sister's 2002 Trans-Am out for a test drive the day after she bought it. He lost control and hit two utility poles; the crash killed his passenger, who was also 19. The driver had no idea the car would become a witness against him. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
will fine you for speeding in there cars And these GPS Cellular systems are in almost all big over the road trucking compay rigs... I have done this with my own car with amateur radio equipment and a gps... its so easy its scary... Ray J info wrote: Hi, Car rental companies have been using a version of the black box to record speed and other factors, giving them a record of the renters driving habits. If you have to rent a car, you may want to be aware of this practice. There is no such thing as privacy anymore, regards tallex ---Original Message--- This data can only be subpoenaed by a court of law AFAIK. It is only kept for a few seconds leading up to when airbags are deployed. Beyond that, nobody would be able to find out anything even if they wanted to. That is because the loop is only that long and old data is written over. There is no reason max values cannot be stored separately. May have warranty implications. Do not exceed so many rpm etc. It is a 2 edged sword. Some good may result but at what point do we sacrifice all privacy? --Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
If you find this kind of recording device in your car, disable it. In case someone might start to argue there is some kind of regulation against that: oops, it malfunctioned... This is were the debate ends for me. Yves. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
inductive loop sensors in the road, or they are on timers ... not too many on cameras .. many traffic lights have sensors up by them that can detect the strobe lights on emergency vehicles and change the light to let them passwhich many people may mistake for cameras... Ray Doug Younker wrote: Well... Cameras are used to control traffic signals. This is not to say they couldn't have dual or even multiple purpose uses. What isn't funny is how petty thieves will screw up a good thing and end up paying more. Doug - Original Message - From: Anti-Fossil [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box : Hi Luc, : : Yes, I can see how they might have an issue with that. Isn't it funny how : skipping out on paying for services really seems to get peoples attention? : I know when I was still in Texas up until 1999, in the Houston area, they : were installing those wonderful (dripping with sarcasm) little cameras on : every traffic light they could find. A little freaky if you ask me. : : AntiFossil : Mike Krafka : Minnesota USA ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
I read your other post where it you said this after mine was on it's way. I'll check it out whenever I get a digital camera. As far as I know there is no camera enforce traffic laws in my area. Thanks Doug - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box : It is simple camera technique. Sufficient IR has to be available to saturate the imaging device. The sensitivity of the camera has been set by average ambient conditions. You can use a digital camera to observe the technique. I suggest you review the law to see if it is unadvisable in your neighborhood. : : Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
- Original Message - From: Ray J [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box : : I have done this with my own car with amateur radio equipment and a : gps... its so easy its scary... : : Ray J But then we have the choice of turning it off or introducing ambiguity. Interesting to see a vehicle moving across the map at 0MPH/KPH :) Yes, it's so easy and relatively inexpensive to boot. Doug, N0LKK ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
In a nearby small city most all new traffic signals use cameras and some older installations are being retro- fitted with cameras. Known to be cameras because of several newspaper articles detailing them. Many of the city's other signals remain on timers or the inductive sensors in the pavement. Without extra information it's going to be hard to tell what camera appearing devices really are and their intended use(s). Doug - Original Message - From: Ray J [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box : For the most part most traffic lights in the US are controlled by : inductive loop sensors in the road, or they are on timers ... not too : many on cameras .. many traffic lights have sensors up by them that can : detect the strobe lights on emergency vehicles and change the light to : let them passwhich many people may mistake for cameras... : : Ray : : Doug Younker wrote: : : Well... Cameras are used to control traffic signals. This is not to say : they couldn't have dual or even multiple purpose uses. What isn't funny is : how petty thieves will screw up a good thing and end up paying more. Doug : - Original Message - : From: Anti-Fossil [EMAIL PROTECTED] : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:00 PM : Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box : : : : Hi Luc, : : : : Yes, I can see how they might have an issue with that. Isn't it funny how : : skipping out on paying for services really seems to get peoples attention? : : I know when I was still in Texas up until 1999, in the Houston area, they : : were installing those wonderful (dripping with sarcasm) little cameras on : : every traffic light they could find. A little freaky if you ask me. : : : : AntiFossil : : Mike Krafka : : Minnesota USA : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ : : : : : : : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ : ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
They can try, but, they don't have the authority.One rental car company was taken to court over it, and lost big time because they fined a guy that went 20 mph over, by charging it to his credit card. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Ray J [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 15:56 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Yes i have seen this on tv ond on the net... Some rental car company will fine you for speeding in there cars And these GPS Cellular systems are in almost all big over the road trucking compay rigs... I have done this with my own car with amateur radio equipment and a gps... its so easy its scary... Ray J info wrote: Hi, Car rental companies have been using a version of the black box to record speed and other factors, giving them a record of the renters driving habits. If you have to rent a car, you may want to be aware of this practice. There is no such thing as privacy anymore, regards tallex ---Original Message--- This data can only be subpoenaed by a court of law AFAIK. It is only kept for a few seconds leading up to when airbags are deployed. Beyond that, nobody would be able to find out anything even if they wanted to. That is because the loop is only that long and old data is written over. There is no reason max values cannot be stored separately. May have warranty implications. Do not exceed so many rpm etc. It is a 2 edged sword. Some good may result but at what point do we sacrifice all privacy? --Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
And these GPS Cellular systems are in almost all big over the road trucking company rigs... They do not even need the GPS here in the UK you can track most mobile phones with your home computer if you know its number. The phone company triangulates using the phone masts in use. A lot of firm's phones have automatic tracking systems fitted. My son lost his job last year because of this technology. I know it was his own fault but it still came as a shock that they knew where he was at all times. Chris. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 07/02/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
My case, my point.I'll bet it is no end of insult to have an apparatus you paid for rsponsible for a job loss eh? This endless quest for perfection is leading us down the path of insanity.People are NOT perfect, be nice if they, whoever they are, would get over it. Luc - Original Message - From: Chris Lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:01 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box They do not even need the GPS here in the UK you can track most mobile phones with your home computer if you know its number. The phone company triangulates using the phone masts in use. A lot of firm's phones have automatic tracking systems fitted. My son lost his job last year because of this technology. I know it was his own fault but it still came as a shock that they knew where he was at all times. Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
A camera with an LCD display is easiest. A digital movie camera for example. If not just download pix from a snapshot camera. What is interesting is that light invisible to the human eye can be used thus making it less obvious. Kirk --- Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read your other post where it you said this after mine was on it's way. I'll check it out whenever I get a digital camera. As far as I know there is no camera enforce traffic laws in my area. Thanks Doug - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box : It is simple camera technique. Sufficient IR has to be available to saturate the imaging device. The sensitivity of the camera has been set by average ambient conditions. You can use a digital camera to observe the technique. I suggest you review the law to see if it is unadvisable in your neighborhood. : : Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
(...) Those cameras are everywhere here in the UK. On motorways they track you over bridge to over bridge and in urban areas they are on most traffic lights. Now some towns are using them to fine people for not wearing seat belts and stopping for a few seconds to let passengers out. Apparently the UK has more cameras for head of population than any other country. Chris. and France follows...but will not go as far (I hope). I've seen a documentary about scotland yard, able to follow automatically a pedestrian across London city. G.Orwells was brittish, wasn't he ? In France, the law makes difficult to film public spaces, and very difficult to record the movies and pictures for security purpose. And such a picture or movie cannot be considered as an evidence, but only a clue. Despite of this, we have more and more automatic radars on road sides. The whole process is automatic and some errors happened dued to the OCR software that doesn't read properly the licence plates. Newspapers regularly laugh about farm tractors supposed to reach 150 kph , 600 km far from the farm or fees sent to previously dead persons. Among many counter-measures invented by few drivers : light leaded photographic flash behind windshield to overexpose camera, cursive caracters on the plate (illegal but not prosecuted), polarisant film, nautic radar detector (illegal and seems to work only with old long range systems, useless with laser telemeters) ... The best tip is...to respect the speed limits. All the automatic cameras are localised on official websites and by big traffic signs. But we also have mobile cameras, hidden in anonymous car boots parked anywhere on roadsides and operated by policemen. The photos are no more systematically send by post at the owner of the car : this has broken too many marriages because you can see very clearly the faces of passengers, and the time and location of the shot are printed on the photo ;-) Some traffic lights are also connected with sensors and cameras. When I was a city representative, I had to watch over the settlement of such a system : when a car was entering too fast in town, the traffic light turned to red to stop it. And if a car drives through the line when the red light is on, the camera shoots and can send it by mail to the police. (the pictures are never saved in the box to limit sabotage threat) About black box : the tachychronometers [tachychronographe] are already compulsory for professionnals trucks and buses, may be in all the European union, formerly made to control working time of drivers. Some associations against driving criminality recently asked for the extension to all the cars of a german made black box (Siemens VDO, Stuttgart), sealed and only for justice use. Others ways are used by corporate fleet manager : GPS or Argos system, Inboard chips already used to pass frontiers, tolls or gates without stop. You already can read your average speed on your exit ticket at the motorway near Montpellier, or on the screen of your dashboard computer in several new european cars. frantz ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
My wife is a claims adjuster for one of the largest private insurance companies here in the US ( one of the reasons that I don't worry about my driving.I would never hear the end of it if I messed up. LOL ), and last night I thought to ask her about the black boxes. It took me 10 min. of explaining as to what I was talking about, because she had never heard of them before, so the company that she work for doesn't use the boxes to check up on the accadent reports.According to her and her co workers, there is usually enough 'other' evidence to be able to make a deterimation as to fault. I have been thinking about the accuracy of these black boxes, and while they might be useful in some cases, in many cases they would be of no use especially in places that are subject to bad weather, and slippery roads are common. Just earlier this winter, on the way to church early one Sunday morning, after a day of wet snow and a hard freeze that night.We were going up hill, and I took my foot off of the accelerator to use what was left of the momentum of the vehicle to top the hill.By the time we made it to the top of the hill, we were so slow, the speedometer, was just barely registering, when we hit something ( pot hole, rock, piece of wood ? ) hidden under the snow, and started to slide.Almost a whole minute to slide down the other side of the hill ( a long gentle slope ) sideways. Accelerator was 0%, brake was 0%, and speed was 0.All because the city decided that the snow crews could sleep in that morning. Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
- Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box : : That is because the loop is only that long and old data is written over. There is no reason max values cannot be stored separately. May have warranty implications. Do not exceed so many rpm etc. It is a 2 edged sword. Some good may result but at what point do we sacrifice all privacy? : : --Kirk I fear we already have without our really knowing to what extent we have done so. Worse yet there may be no turning back time or even halting the trend. Even if my days of going over the speed limit by a good amount are behind me, thanks for the illuminating the license plate with IR tip, but it is it a tested idea or one of those use at your own risk theories? Doug, N0LKK ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Well... Cameras are used to control traffic signals. This is not to say they couldn't have dual or even multiple purpose uses. What isn't funny is how petty thieves will screw up a good thing and end up paying more. Doug - Original Message - From: Anti-Fossil [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box : Hi Luc, : : Yes, I can see how they might have an issue with that. Isn't it funny how : skipping out on paying for services really seems to get peoples attention? : I know when I was still in Texas up until 1999, in the Houston area, they : were installing those wonderful (dripping with sarcasm) little cameras on : every traffic light they could find. A little freaky if you ask me. : : AntiFossil : Mike Krafka : Minnesota USA ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
It is simple camera technique. Sufficient IR has to be available to saturate the imaging device. The sensitivity of the camera has been set by average ambient conditions. You can use a digital camera to observe the technique. I suggest you review the law to see if it is unadvisable in your neighborhood. Kirk Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box : : That is because the loop is only that long and old data is written over. There is no reason max values cannot be stored separately. May have warranty implications. Do not exceed so many rpm etc. It is a 2 edged sword. Some good may result but at what point do we sacrifice all privacy? : : --Kirk I fear we already have without our really knowing to what extent we have done so. Worse yet there may be no turning back time or even halting the trend. Even if my days of going over the speed limit by a good amount are behind me, thanks for the illuminating the license plate with IR tip, but it is it a tested idea or one of those use at your own risk theories? Doug, N0LKK ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
computer.. its hooked to sensors and looks at your speed and how fast the car is stopping.. if the car is stopping very fast... hitting somthing solid at speeds above 20 miles an hour or so the computer records the last few seconds of information on throttle position, brake line pressures, wheel speed and stuff like that.. There does not have to be a crash though... anytime the wheels lock or veloicity changes quickly the computer will record info thinking there might be a crash and it might have to set off the airbags.. . It does not always record what you are doing.. It is not really big brother watching. but thay have used in information in court before to hold people liable in crashes... But I would watch out for that onstar system... gps and a cellular relay to give your speed, position, unlock your doors... i would be sure big brother has his nose in there... Ray J ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Martin K [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This data can only be subpoenaed by a court of law AFAIK. It is only kept for a few seconds leading up to when airbags are deployed. Beyond that, nobody would be able to find out anything even if they wanted to. That is because the loop is only that long and old data is written over. There is no reason max values cannot be stored separately. May have warranty implications. Do not exceed so many rpm etc. It is a 2 edged sword. Some good may result but at what point do we sacrifice all privacy? --Kirk - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Hello Kirk, Now this is what I call useful information. But I am curious, what do you mean by solid state ? AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box If they are using solid state cameras for a digital image the silicon sensors have peak sensitivity in the far red. You can illuminate the license plate with IR and the camera attempting to image the plate plate will over expose, no picture of the plate, washed out. To human eye there is almost no difference. Kirk snip ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Illuminated plates, he he. I belive they have a real problem with that in Toronto Canada where they have an electronic toll road that takes pictures of the liscence plate and send you a bill by the post for the costs, so some folks have taken to putting those neon type illuminated liscence plate holders on their cars, and it is apparently wreaking havoc with the eye of the spy. Job creation would have been more efficient. Luc - Original Message - From: Anti-Fossil [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Hello Kirk, Now this is what I call useful information. But I am curious, what do you mean by solid state ? AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box If they are using solid state cameras for a digital image the silicon sensors have peak sensitivity in the far red. You can illuminate the license plate with IR and the camera attempting to image the plate plate will over expose, no picture of the plate, washed out. To human eye there is almost no difference. Kirk snip ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Hello Kirk, Now this is what I call useful information. But I am curious, what do you mean by solid state ? I would guess he is referring to the innards of the speed camera being of the same construction as the innards of a digital camera, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_camera Andrew AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box If they are using solid state cameras for a digital image the silicon [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Hi Luc, Yes, I can see how they might have an issue with that. Isn't it funny how skipping out on paying for services really seems to get peoples attention? I know when I was still in Texas up until 1999, in the Houston area, they were installing those wonderful (dripping with sarcasm) little cameras on every traffic light they could find. A little freaky if you ask me. AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 7:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box G'day Mike et all; Illuminated plates, he he. I belive they have a real problem with that in Toronto Canada where they have an electronic toll road that takes pictures of the liscence plate and send you a bill by the post for the costs, so some folks have taken to putting those neon type illuminated liscence plate holders on their cars, and it is apparently wreaking havoc with the eye of the spy. Job creation would have been more efficient. Luc - Original Message - From: Anti-Fossil [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Hello Kirk, Now this is what I call useful information. But I am curious, what do you mean by solid state ? AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box If they are using solid state cameras for a digital image the silicon sensors have peak sensitivity in the far red. You can illuminate the license plate with IR and the camera attempting to image the plate plate will over expose, no picture of the plate, washed out. To human eye there is almost no difference. Kirk snip ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - Original Message - From: Anti-Fossil [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Hi Luc, Yes, I can see how they might have an issue with that. Isn't it funny how skipping out on paying for services really seems to get peoples attention? I know when I was still in Texas up until 1999, in the Houston area, they were installing those wonderful (dripping with sarcasm) little cameras on every traffic light they could find. A little freaky if you ask me. Now if one were to carry the thought process out to it's logical conclusion we end up with the Orwelian Telescreens where the TV acts as your source ogf information but the thing also gets to watch your every moment and record your every word. Paranoid? But, they would say, it gives us a leg up on terrorism. It would allow to scrutinise potential threats before they can become reality, they would say. It would make the nation a safer place... blah blah. Impossible ? So was WTC's getting dropped nto it's respective footprints and so also was Patriot 1 and 2 not that long ago. Would one have even mentioned it as a possibility four years ago they would have been laughed at and treated like a conspiracy but who's immagination is over ripe, but it did happpen, eh? It continues to happen, eh? It forcasts to expand and grow into a even greater monster, eh? The only safe government power is controlled government power, and in most cases government is the one doing the controlling. Not aying that or anyone can alctually *do* anything to twart that, merely that I am very leery of it considering the track record of power abuse. Today it is black boxes in your glove box, cameras on the street corners, and on the highways, all in the name of protecting the public good, and so where does that *protection* stop ? They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 Luc AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
You had better believe it, it has been used to put more than one person behind bars, and without a warrant. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Ray J [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 21:09 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box But I would watch out for that onstar system... gps and a cellular relay to give your speed, position, unlock your doors... i would be sure big brother has his nose in there... Ray J ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
OnStar, gotta love it eh? The epitome of an invible friend. The Chucky, kind that is.(Chucky is a demonic marionette come alive and terrorising everyone) However this feature is an option, so you control whether or not you want to be surveillanced, unlike the other gizmo, and like you said, it has already been used against it's owner. If it is not an option I can refuse then I would not be putting money into an abritrary system that is there only to snoop on me. Luc - Original Message - From: Ray J [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Yeah I do believe the black box on most cars is tied to the airbag computer.. its hooked to sensors and looks at your speed and how fast the car is stopping.. if the car is stopping very fast... hitting somthing solid at speeds above 20 miles an hour or so the computer records the last few seconds of information on throttle position, brake line pressures, wheel speed and stuff like that.. There does not have to be a crash though... anytime the wheels lock or veloicity changes quickly the computer will record info thinking there might be a crash and it might have to set off the airbags.. . It does not always record what you are doing.. It is not really big brother watching. but thay have used in information in court before to hold people liable in crashes... But I would watch out for that onstar system... gps and a cellular relay to give your speed, position, unlock your doors... i would be sure big brother has his nose in there... Ray J ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
I was still in Texas up until 1999, in the Houston area, they were installing those wonderful (dripping with sarcasm) little cameras on every traffic light they could find. Those cameras are everywhere here in the UK. On motorways they track you over bridge to over bridge and in urban areas they are on most traffic lights. Now some towns are using them to fine people for not wearing seat belts and stopping for a few seconds to let passengers out. Apparently the UK has more cameras for head of population than any other country. Chris. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 03/02/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Hi, Car rental companies have been using a version of the black box to record speed and other factors, giving them a record of the renters driving habits. If you have to rent a car, you may want to be aware of this practice. There is no such thing as privacy anymore, regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Sent: 07 Feb 2005 00:06:43 Martin K [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This data can only be subpoenaed by a court of law AFAIK. It is only kept for a few seconds leading up to when airbags are deployed. Beyond that, nobody would be able to find out anything even if they wanted to. That is because the loop is only that long and old data is written over. There is no reason max values cannot be stored separately. May have warranty implications. Do not exceed so many rpm etc. It is a 2 edged sword. Some good may result but at what point do we sacrifice all privacy? --Kirk Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Cameras that do not use film have a CCD array (charge coupled device) as they are small and low power unlike the vidicons, orthicons and plumbicons of yore. They are silicon detectors much like a transistor. They are not vacuum tubes, they are a special type of integrated circuit. If you have a digital camera take a picture of an infra red led that is turned on. You will see what I mean. You can't see it but to the ccd in your camera it is a bright source of light. Kirk --- Anti-Fossil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Kirk, Now this is what I call useful information. But I am curious, what do you mean by solid state ? AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box If they are using solid state cameras for a digital image the silicon sensors have peak sensitivity in the far red. You can illuminate the license plate with IR and the camera attempting to image the plate plate will over expose, no picture of the plate, washed out. To human eye there is almost no difference. Kirk snip ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Hi, I agree. Why would anybody have a problem with automotive black boxes. There are far too many lousy, speeding or drunk drivers on the roads as it is. If one of your family members or someone that you cared about was killed in a traffic accident, would'nt you want to know the details of the crash? These devices are not new news. They have been in cars for a few years now. They have been used at least a couple of times to secure drunk driving convictions, so why would anyone have a problem with them? If it is because of privacy concerns, give me a break! The average joe is photographed a few hundred times, just going about their daily routines. If you are not speeding, driving drunk or recklessly why should you care? I think that they are a good idea, regards tallex Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ---Original Message--- From: Martin K [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Sent: 05 Feb 2005 18:20:14 Greg, can I ask why? What if someone ran into you doing 100MPH. Would you want justice to be done (would your family?) Forcing people to be responsible for their irresponsibility is refreshing to me. -- Martin K http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/ Greg Harbican wrote: One of the reasons I like older vehicles. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 08:11 Subject: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1id=75424 Your car is most likely recording things about your driving and that information can be used against you if you have a traffic accident. Most people don't know their car has a black box. They are similar to ones in airplanes, although they don't record voices, but they do record plenty of other things that happen before a crash. Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Doesn't mean I have to like it, or put up with it, if I have a choice - which in this case I do. Greg H. - Original Message - From: info [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 18:19 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box The average joe is photographed a few hundred times, just going about their daily routines. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Hi Greg, I don't like being photographed a few hundred times daily either and I happen to like older vehicles as well. They are much easier to work on and I find them more reliable. As to auto black boxes, they don't bother me because I drive responsably. As to privacy, it has become a myth which is rather unfortunate. You may still have a choice to drive an older car but you don't have a choice to not get photgraphed 100's times daily. The era of big brother has been with us for a few years and it is not pretty, regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Sent: 06 Feb 2005 01:28:55 Doesn't mean I have to like it, or put up with it, if I have a choice - which in this case I do. Greg H. - Original Message - From: info [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 18:19 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box The average joe is photographed a few hundred times, just going about their daily routines. Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
I think it has something to do with an Orwelian world. What of the rest of us who are responsible drivers and have had a perfect driving record for over a million miles. Do we really *need* Big Brother watching our every step ? I know the obvious misuse of this technology is not something that has escaped you. You know, stop at the next sevice plaza and have the DOT check your black box to see if you have been anywhere hear over the speed limit and then repirting you to your insurance company ? Or better still, spot checks on city streets. Why bother tryin to set up radar traps when you have one conveniently in your vehicle ? Immagine the savings in man hours (not) Isn't this sort of infringement exactly what a totalitarian world consist of ? But then, there are some who actually see the good in Patriot 1 and 2, go figure. After all Papa governement is alwasy benign and would never ever think of using technology to do us any harm woyuld they, said he with great gesticulatory sarcasm. The problem isn't so much the protection of the innocent as it is an infrigement on every one else, not a liscence but an I spy in your glove box. Drunk driving in some orient countries is only a first time offence (or used to be) as they hang you for it. I believe it was the Philipines, but I could be wrong on that.I did however read it some years ago and it was in that neck of the woods. Concerned about criminal activity on the roads? Make the penalty not worth the offence and you won't need spy boxes in every car. Luc - Original Message - From: Martin K [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Greg, can I ask why? What if someone ran into you doing 100MPH. Would you want justice to be done (would your family?) Forcing people to be responsible for their irresponsibility is refreshing to me. -- Martin K http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/ Greg Harbican wrote: One of the reasons I like older vehicles. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 08:11 Subject: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1id=75424 Your car is most likely recording things about your driving and that information can be used against you if you have a traffic accident. Most people don't know their car has a black box. They are similar to ones in airplanes, although they don't record voices, but they do record plenty of other things that happen before a crash. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
I might ramble a bit... Legal Eagle wrote: G'day Martin; I think it has something to do with an Orwelian world. What of the rest of us who are responsible drivers and have had a perfect driving record for over a million miles. Do we really *need* Big Brother watching our every step ? I know the obvious misuse of this technology is not something that has escaped you. You know, stop at the next sevice plaza and have the DOT check your black box to see if you have been anywhere hear over the speed limit and then repirting you to your insurance company ? Or better still, spot checks on city streets. Why bother tryin to set up radar traps when you have one conveniently in your vehicle ? Immagine the savings in man hours (not) Isn't this sort of infringement exactly what a totalitarian world consist of ? Ah ha, here in the problem lies. The black box that you are referring to was placed in cars after people claimed that they where in accidents and the airbags didn't deploy or they where in accidents and the bags didn't deploy quick enough etc etc. To cover their asses, the car companies placed devices into the cars that recorded the cars behaviour in, if memory serves me correctly - see above disclaimer, the last 10 seconds ONLY, before any point in time ie at any point in time when you are driving, there is only the last 10 seconds data stored - this is enough for the car companies to analyse the cars behaviour, speed engine revs' brakes, gears etc etc. and prove that the bags did work correctly. Once again if memory serves correctly, the first time this was used was in Canada when some pissed idiot^^^ drove through the tight old innner city streets of some city at high speed, well over 100km/h, and hit a pedestrian. He claimed he was not speeding and that the pedestrian just stepped out in front of him, but someone, police, victims family???, remembered the black box, and got it seized. It was subsequently analysed and showed that the driver was driving at high speed and was to blame. I think you can rest easy on the Big Brother/Black Box concerns here, for the time being anyway. On the other hand, whilst writing this, I did remember something that is a bit Big Brother. Here in Australia the main highway, the Hume Highway, that runs between the two major capital cities, Melbourne and Sydney, may have camera's placed on it, in the Victorian section anyway, that will grab your licence plate just outside Melbourne and then again just at the border. If you have done that section of the trip in under a certain amount of time, the government logic goes, you must have been speeding and should and will be fined. Haven't heard anything about this recently But then, there are some who actually see the good in Patriot 1 and 2, go figure. After all Papa governement is alwasy benign and would never ever think of using technology to do us any harm woyuld they, said he with great gesticulatory sarcasm. The problem isn't so much the protection of the innocent as it is an infrigement on every one else, not a liscence but an I spy in your glove box. Drunk driving in some orient countries is only a first time offence (or used to be) as they hang you for it. I believe it was the Philipines, Doubt this as the Philippines is a strong Catholic country and have no problems with grog - San Miguel, Philippine based, is one of the biggest brewers in the world. I have heard similar tales, but I think you need to cast your eye a bit further west to the region where there is a bit of a military fiasco currently underway. but I could be wrong on that.I did however read it some years ago and it was in that neck of the woods. Concerned about criminal activity on the roads? Make the penalty not worth the offence and you won't need spy boxes in every car. Luc [snip] ... ... I'm not driving tonight so now it's back to the beers and Playstation Andrew ^^^ For our USA based readers, In Australia, and I think a good part of of the British Commonwealth, pissed refers to very very drunk, not angry. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Legal Eagle wrote: I know the obvious misuse of this technology is not something that has escaped you. You know, stop at the next sevice plaza and have the DOT check your black box to see if you have been anywhere hear over the speed limit and then repirting you to your insurance company ? Or better still, spot checks on city streets. it only records the last 5 seconds and it holds them when the airbags deploy so as long as you weren't speeding in the last 5 seconds (unlikely if you decelerated to get off the ramp) then you are not going to get nailed by your EDR. the EDR can be used just as well to save your neck. I am a firefighter and we see some weird accidents, just the other day we had one where a guy was going about 10-15 and he lost control of his vehicle and rolled it (there was an odd shape to the side of the road) his EDR might save him the ticket and the corresponding increase in his insurance. there is also no legal precedent established as to who owns the data in your EDR and what access you need to allow to it. I would argue that as long as I own the EDR I can tell people (the police included) what access they get to the data contained therein. I think that with a good lawyer I could win that case. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Good points, providing that is *all* it is used for, however abuse is becoming a rule of thumb rather than the exception don't you think? Under Patriot 1 2 all kinds of things pass off without the benefit of a court of law, ask the young ladies being fondled at airports undder the guise of security who have no recourse other than bveing detained if they complain too much about it. I am extremely leery of any program that has the government looking out for my well being. I got a better plan, leave me alone and I will look out for my own. That said however, it could be of benefit, as you say, although very worthy of keeping a close eye on, IMHO. It's like electronic toll collections. If that is all it is used for, fine, however it would be a snap for it to be abused as it records, for end of billing, the *exact* time you pass what check point and any second grade math student can figure how fast you are going between the two points. I am not free if I do not have the freedon to self police myself in matters of social responsibility. In the case that I fall down on the job of doing that there are already plent y of laws on the books that can bring me nack into the fold, so-to-speak. Luc - Original Message - From: Martin K [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 10:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Legal Eagle wrote: G'day Martin; I think it has something to do with an Orwelian world. What of the rest of us who are responsible drivers and have had a perfect driving record for over a million miles. Do we really *need* Big Brother watching our every step ? Many people could handle alcohol at age 15 or do illegal drugs without causing crime, but the few who can't cause BIG problems. It's not exactly the same idea, however; driving CAN be very dangerous and many people just can't handle it without causing big problems. The only way of finding out who is to blame in some accidents is via a device which records the previous few seconds of information such as accelerator percentage, brake action, speed (that's all they really keep track of .. for now). I know the obvious misuse of this technology is not something that has escaped you. You know, stop at the next sevice plaza and have the DOT check your black box to see if you have been anywhere hear over the speed limit and then repirting you to your insurance company ? Or better still, spot checks on city streets. Why bother tryin to set up radar traps when you have one conveniently in your vehicle ? Immagine the savings in man hours (not) Isn't this sort of infringement exactly what a totalitarian world consist of ? But then, there are some who actually see the good in Patriot 1 and 2, go figure. After all Papa governement is alwasy benign and would never ever think of using technology to do us any harm woyuld they, said he with great gesticulatory sarcasm. The problem isn't so much the protection of the innocent as it is an infrigement on every one else, not a liscence but an I spy in your glove box. This data can only be subpoenaed by a court of law AFAIK. It is only kept for a few seconds leading up to when airbags are deployed. Beyond that, nobody would be able to find out anything even if they wanted to. Drunk driving in some orient countries is only a first time offence (or used to be) as they hang you for it. I believe it was the Philipines, but I could be wrong on that.I did however read it some years ago and it was in that neck of the woods. Concerned about criminal activity on the roads? Make the penalty not worth the offence and you won't need spy boxes in every car. Luc I would not be surprised at all if it were the Philippines. The death penalty is arcane at best, but that's another story. -- Martin K http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
- Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box it only records the last 5 seconds I am sure that is what the brochure says. For now that is probably the way it works, and as has been stated by Martin it is indeed a viable method of check and balance, however it is the potential for abuse that I don't like. and it holds them when the airbags deploy so as long as you weren't speeding in the last 5 seconds (unlikely if you decelerated to get off the ramp) then you are not going to get nailed by your EDR. the EDR can be used just as well to save your neck. I am a firefighter and we see some weird accidents, Like tow truck drivers eh? People have no idea what goes on out there. just the other day we had one where a guy was going about 10-15 and he lost control of his vehicle and rolled it (there was an odd shape to the side of the road) his EDR might save him the ticket and the corresponding increase in his insurance. Did it record the road surface imbalance so he could have useful information to use in his case against that DOT or is this miracle of modern tech only good in one direction ? there is also no legal precedent established as to who owns the data in your EDR and what access you need to allow to it. Therefore ...? I would argue that as long as I own the EDR I can tell people (the police included) what access they get to the data contained therein. I think that with a good lawyer I could win that case. Ok, so you have laid out a bundle of money to have a snooper in your glove box (!) and no one is certain *who* owns the information in the spy that you paid for, and now you need a *good* lawyer to see to it that you don't get screwed. I think you just made my point. If the thing isn't there to serve you, the owner of the snooper, then it is there as a spy and is an infrigement on a whole mess of potential freedoms. The very fact that there is no proprietary ownership of the data proves that the thing isn't there as a friend. Why would I want to purposely have something installed in a vehicle that I must pay for just to have it paternalize me? Luc ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Hi Andrew, You are concerned with TWO road cameras between Melbourne and the Victoria state border? Here in New Zealand we have road cameras coming out of our ears, including roving cameras in unmarked cars. In fact they zapped the Prime Minister and her police escort when she was on her way to an official function recently, resulting in some frantic spin doctoring to assure the public she didn't ask the driver to travel so fast. The bottom line is that the cameras have brought down the speeding levels considerably and we are all that much safer when it comes to road travel. Best wishes, Bob. - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box (snip) On the other hand, whilst writing this, I did remember something that is a bit Big Brother. Here in Australia the main highway, the Hume Highway, that runs between the two major capital cities, Melbourne and Sydney, may have camera's placed on it, in the Victorian section anyway, that will grab your licence plate just outside Melbourne and then again just at the border. If you have done that section of the trip in under a certain amount of time, the government logic goes, you must have been speeding and should and will be fined. Haven't heard anything about this recently ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
If they are using solid state cameras for a digital image the silicon sensors have peak sensitivity in the far red. You can illuminate the license plate with IR and the camera attempting to image the plate plate will over expose, no picture of the plate, washed out. To human eye there is almost no difference. Kirk bmolloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Andrew, You are concerned with TWO road cameras between Melbourne and the Victoria state border? Here in New Zealand we have road cameras coming out of our ears, including roving cameras in unmarked cars. In fact they zapped the Prime Minister and her police escort when she was on her way to an official function recently, resulting in some frantic spin doctoring to assure the public she didn't ask the driver to travel so fast. The bottom line is that the cameras have brought down the speeding levels considerably and we are all that much safer when it comes to road travel. Best wishes, Bob. - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe To: Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box (snip) On the other hand, whilst writing this, I did remember something that is a bit Big Brother. Here in Australia the main highway, the Hume Highway, that runs between the two major capital cities, Melbourne and Sydney, may have camera's placed on it, in the Victorian section anyway, that will grab your licence plate just outside Melbourne and then again just at the border. If you have done that section of the trip in under a certain amount of time, the government logic goes, you must have been speeding and should and will be fined. Haven't heard anything about this recently ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
One of the reasons I like older vehicles. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 08:11 Subject: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1id=75424 Your car is most likely recording things about your driving and that information can be used against you if you have a traffic accident. Most people don't know their car has a black box. They are similar to ones in airplanes, although they don't record voices, but they do record plenty of other things that happen before a crash. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
What if someone ran into you doing 100MPH. Would you want justice to be done (would your family?) Forcing people to be responsible for their irresponsibility is refreshing to me. -- Martin K http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/ Greg Harbican wrote: One of the reasons I like older vehicles. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 08:11 Subject: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1id=75424 Your car is most likely recording things about your driving and that information can be used against you if you have a traffic accident. Most people don't know their car has a black box. They are similar to ones in airplanes, although they don't record voices, but they do record plenty of other things that happen before a crash. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
be a witness for us. Honest people do not need to fear surveillance. My parents taught me that driving was a privilege, not a right. I see no problem with this and considering the road rage and other things I see on the highway, all the time, I think this is a good idea. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:11 AM 2/5/2005, you wrote: http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1id=75424 Your car is most likely recording things about your driving and that information can be used against you if you have a traffic accident. Most people don't know their car has a black box. They are similar to ones in airplanes, although they don't record voices, but they do record plenty of other things that happen before a crash. News on 6 reporter Lori Fullbright has been investigating. Even though it's silver, it's called a black box or airbag sensor or event data recorder. Its main job is safety, it operates the airbags, but it also records information and because of that, a Glenpool teenager could be charged with negligent homicide. It'll be the first time anyone's been charged in Tulsa County based on a black box, but you can bet, it won't be the last. Last year, a 19 year old man took his sister's 2002 Trans-Am out for a test drive the day after she bought it. He lost control and hit two utility poles; the crash killed his passenger, who was also 19. The driver had no idea the car would become a witness against him. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
I don't like the idea of forcing people like that. I believe in an after life, and even if they are not held responsible in this life, I believe that they will be held responsible there, for the good or bad that they cause in the here and now. Yes, personal response ability is good, but, I don't think that is the way to go about it. I dislike any form of Big Brother. I dislike new vehicles, because of the built in obsolescence, and so called hype that is use to sell them. I also like older cars, because a single cracked tail light doesn't cost $150.00 ( or more ) to replace. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Martin K [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 11:20 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Greg, can I ask why? What if someone ran into you doing 100MPH. Would you want justice to be done (would your family?) Forcing people to be responsible for their irresponsibility is refreshing to me. -- Martin K http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
