Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Oil was first used for lamps and steam boilers. The diesel oil is a by product of the refining process to get gasoline and was used as for lamps, cleaning and heating. A cleaner version of diesel is used for dry cleaning. I do not remember the amount of different products that you get from crude, but you can find it if you google. Short, No, Diesel did not invent the fuel, he was actually looking for using coal dust. His interest or lack of it in petroleum products was understandable. Prohibition was only about drunkenness and wood alcohol can be used if you filter it with active coal to remove harmful oils. After prohibition there are many ways and rules to protect the tax income from alcoholic drinks. Gasoline as product, was developed for Ford T and as a cheaper fuel to replace ethanol. Ethanol has always been an alternative fuel, until they started to use rubber parts that was dissolved by ethanol. Similar development with the diesel engine. I do not know if the choice of rubber was intentional, to secure the use of petroleum products, but it might have been. Hakan At 04:49 09/06/2006, you wrote: Mike The oil engine was in use long before Rudolf Diesel. Bit of chicken or egg. Did Rudolf invent the fuel? He certainly reduced the size of the oil engine principal to enable it to fit into land transport use from Sea and machine shop energy sources. I have been unable to locate any part where he actually invented the mineral oil known as Diesel oil. I can only find references to Peanut/vegetable oils in his early engines. Can anyone point me in the direction where he invented the Diesel oil? Prohibition was to stop home making of fuel or to stop alcoholic drinks or one was to cover the other? In history wood alcohol was included why? Henry Ford was a ruthless marketing and business man. (Read some of Edzels conflicts with his father before his early death). Fuel was sold in cans. How do you sell cars to people well away from fuel sources? Make them able to run on multi fuels, until Prohibition. The dates are about correct, late model T and early model A, AA and AAA. Note the model AAA (Triple A) was still run on ethanol as was not outlawed as far as my trips and research shows. The globe was already controlled by the oil industry. Sloan, the most powerfull man at the time, could not perhaps change this or was in agreement with the oil industry. * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years. Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfm http://alerts.organicconsumers.org/trk/click?ref=zqtbkk3um_0-ax332x3239551; ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Håkan, it is obvious that no patent or manufacturing lisence will last for one houndrad years, espcecially considering the development of the diesel engine. But Scania is the inheritar of the original diesel engine. However, it is not flattering for us Swedes to be so historically involved and possibly even having promoted the petroleum substitute for the diesel engine. Particulary not, since there is a common imagnination that the discovery of petroleum made it possible for the combustion engine to arise, because of the unique properties of petroleum. Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Manufacturing rights as a whole to the diesel engine cannot be owned by Scania, only certain modifications that are done the last 25 years. It is no legal way, that I know of, to protect the original diesel engine for 100 years. The only legal way to protect manufacturing rights, is through patents and even they are not protected in certain countries. Patents are only valid for 25 years and the normal way is to patent modifications/enhancements to the original patent to prolong the patent protection of the most competitive product. Diesel might have had the idea as student, but he had financing for his development from the German coal industry. The contract was to develop his engine to run on coal dust. That is why there are always mentioning of coal dust, in conjunction with diesel. Kerrosene was at the time and today, used for lamps and heating. It is also a quality of kerrosene used for dry cleaning. The quality of crude that are economical for gasoline, will end before the crude suitable for fuel for diesel engine. If normal demand principles are governing the situation, the price gap between diesel and gasoline should widen in the future. It depends also on the space heating demands, where heating oil (diesel) is used for small buildings. Large buildings and Area centrals, use heavy oil and it will last longer than diesel. When we are talking of oil depletion, it is a very rough estimation. Certain oil products like gasoline are depleting faster than the generally used numbers. Oil products and their depletion is a much more complex situation. Hakan At 08:34 09/06/2006, you wrote: Yes, I am able to amswer some questions concerning Rudolf Diesel. He had his idea to his engine when he was a student of the technical academy. Once he had a ready prototype ( which was tested with several fuels ; gasoline, kerrosene and vegetable oils) he realized that he had to supply the fuel with the machine. So as a result of an agreement with Atlas Copco Diesel (member of the Wallenberg group) he had oil exploration rights in Baku, near the Caspian Sea through an oil company with head office in St Petersbrg Russia. This company was run by two relatives to Alfred Nobel, the founder of the Nobel prize. The aim with this deal was to obtain large qtis of kerrosene, which was the main petroleum product by that time. But then the Russian revelution came in 1917 and his rights were expropiated. But the time that he had at his disposal was enough to establish kerrosene as the main diesel fuel. The manufacturing rights of the diesel engine is now owned by Scania, which also is a member of the Wallenberg group. The question for Rudolf Diesel was not the fuel itself, it was to have access to diesel engine fuel, period. We are now running out of oil, but some really good alternatives are coming up in practice, don´t you think ? Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: lres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 4:49 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Mike The oil engine was in use long before Rudolf Diesel. Bit of chicken or egg. Did Rudolf invent the fuel? He certainly reduced the size of the oil engine principal to enable it to fit into land transport use from Sea and machine shop energy sources. I have been unable to locate any part where he actually invented the mineral oil known as Diesel oil. I can only find references to Peanut/vegetable oils in his early engines. Can anyone point me in the direction where he invented the Diesel oil? Prohibition was to stop home making of fuel or to stop alcoholic drinks or one was to cover the other? In history wood alcohol was included why? Henry Ford was a ruthless marketing and business man. (Read some of Edzels conflicts with his father before his early death). Fuel was sold in cans. How do you sell cars to people well away from fuel sources? Make them able to run on multi fuels, until Prohibition. The dates are about correct, late model T and early model A, AA and AAA. Note the model AAA (Triple A) was still run on ethanol as was not outlawed as far as my trips and research shows. The globe
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
No I do not have a connection to Atlas Copco, but I know a little something about Rudolf Diesel. Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, I did work with Atlas Copco as consultant in acoustics, when they developed the silent compressors. At the time I was employed by Stellan Dahlstedt, Akustik Konsult AB. It was very interesting insights in both diesel and compressor technology. The person in charge of their acoustic lab. was an ex. employee in Akustik Konsult. I tell you this, because you obviously have a connection to them. It was around 40 years ago and I moved out of Sweden almost 30 years ago, to work full time with CAD/CAM and network products. The final line of compressors became trend setters in the market and a large success. Håkan At 11:06 09/06/2006, you wrote: Håkan, it is obvious that no patent or manufacturing lisence will last for one houndrad years, espcecially considering the development of the diesel engine. But Scania is the inheritar of the original diesel engine. However, it is not flattering for us Swedes to be so historically involved and possibly even having promoted the petroleum substitute for the diesel engine. Particulary not, since there is a common imagnination that the discovery of petroleum made it possible for the combustion engine to arise, because of the unique properties of petroleum. Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Manufacturing rights as a whole to the diesel engine cannot be owned by Scania, only certain modifications that are done the last 25 years. It is no legal way, that I know of, to protect the original diesel engine for 100 years. The only legal way to protect manufacturing rights, is through patents and even they are not protected in certain countries. Patents are only valid for 25 years and the normal way is to patent modifications/enhancements to the original patent to prolong the patent protection of the most competitive product. Diesel might have had the idea as student, but he had financing for his development from the German coal industry. The contract was to develop his engine to run on coal dust. That is why there are always mentioning of coal dust, in conjunction with diesel. Kerrosene was at the time and today, used for lamps and heating. It is also a quality of kerrosene used for dry cleaning. The quality of crude that are economical for gasoline, will end before the crude suitable for fuel for diesel engine. If normal demand principles are governing the situation, the price gap between diesel and gasoline should widen in the future. It depends also on the space heating demands, where heating oil (diesel) is used for small buildings. Large buildings and Area centrals, use heavy oil and it will last longer than diesel. When we are talking of oil depletion, it is a very rough estimation. Certain oil products like gasoline are depleting faster than the generally used numbers. Oil products and their depletion is a much more complex situation. Hakan At 08:34 09/06/2006, you wrote: Yes, I am able to amswer some questions concerning Rudolf Diesel. He had his idea to his engine when he was a student of the technical academy. Once he had a ready prototype ( which was tested with several fuels ; gasoline, kerrosene and vegetable oils) he realized that he had to supply the fuel with the machine. So as a result of an agreement with Atlas Copco Diesel (member of the Wallenberg group) he had oil exploration rights in Baku, near the Caspian Sea through an oil company with head office in St Petersbrg Russia. This company was run by two relatives to Alfred Nobel, the founder of the Nobel prize. The aim with this deal was to obtain large qtis of kerrosene, which was the main petroleum product by that time. But then the Russian revelution came in 1917 and his rights were expropiated. But the time that he had at his disposal was enough to establish kerrosene as the main diesel fuel. The manufacturing rights of the diesel engine is now owned by Scania, which also is a member of the Wallenberg group. The question for Rudolf Diesel was not the fuel itself, it was to have access to diesel engine fuel, period. We are now running out of oil, but some really good alternatives are coming up in practice, don´t you think ? Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: lres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 4:49 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Mike The oil engine was in use long before Rudolf Diesel. Bit of chicken or egg. Did Rudolf invent the fuel? He certainly reduced the size of the oil engine principal to enable it to fit into land
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Jan, Thank you for the earlier reply. I don't suppose you would know if the following is correct or not. Australia had the maximum grant to any inventor set at AUD10,000. This was the maximum grant to enable development of an inventors idea. From memory the Swedes had a department that would analyse an idea and if seen to be possible then that department could be asked to assist the inventor to a much greater degree than the AUD10,000. This could be why the cassette was held by such interest and other every day consumable as well as technologically based items. Not much in the way of books, and only slow online here. Can you remember the late 60's and 70's when this system was meant to have been operating in Sweden? Doug. Håkan, it is obvious that no patent or manufacturing lisence will last for one houndrad years, espcecially considering the development of the diesel engine. But Scania is the inheritar of the original diesel engine. However, it is not flattering for us Swedes to be so historically involved and possibly even having promoted the petroleum substitute for the diesel engine. Particulary not, since there is a common imagnination that the discovery of petroleum made it possible for the combustion engine to arise, because of the unique properties of petroleum. Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Manufacturing rights as a whole to the diesel engine cannot be owned by Scania, only certain modifications that are done the last 25 years. It is no legal way, that I know of, to protect the original diesel engine for 100 years. The only legal way to protect manufacturing rights, is through patents and even they are not protected in certain countries. Patents are only valid for 25 years and the normal way is to patent modifications/enhancements to the original patent to prolong the patent protection of the most competitive product. Diesel might have had the idea as student, but he had financing for his development from the German coal industry. The contract was to develop his engine to run on coal dust. That is why there are always mentioning of coal dust, in conjunction with diesel. Kerrosene was at the time and today, used for lamps and heating. It is also a quality of kerrosene used for dry cleaning. The quality of crude that are economical for gasoline, will end before the crude suitable for fuel for diesel engine. If normal demand principles are governing the situation, the price gap between diesel and gasoline should widen in the future. It depends also on the space heating demands, where heating oil (diesel) is used for small buildings. Large buildings and Area centrals, use heavy oil and it will last longer than diesel. When we are talking of oil depletion, it is a very rough estimation. Certain oil products like gasoline are depleting faster than the generally used numbers. Oil products and their depletion is a much more complex situation. Hakan At 08:34 09/06/2006, you wrote: Yes, I am able to amswer some questions concerning Rudolf Diesel. He had his idea to his engine when he was a student of the technical academy. Once he had a ready prototype ( which was tested with several fuels ; gasoline, kerrosene and vegetable oils) he realized that he had to supply the fuel with the machine. So as a result of an agreement with Atlas Copco Diesel (member of the Wallenberg group) he had oil exploration rights in Baku, near the Caspian Sea through an oil company with head office in St Petersbrg Russia. This company was run by two relatives to Alfred Nobel, the founder of the Nobel prize. The aim with this deal was to obtain large qtis of kerrosene, which was the main petroleum product by that time. But then the Russian revelution came in 1917 and his rights were expropiated. But the time that he had at his disposal was enough to establish kerrosene as the main diesel fuel. The manufacturing rights of the diesel engine is now owned by Scania, which also is a member of the Wallenberg group. The question for Rudolf Diesel was not the fuel itself, it was to have access to diesel engine fuel, period. We are now running out of oil, but some really good alternatives are coming up in practice, don´t you think ? Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: lres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 4:49 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Mike The oil engine was in use long before Rudolf Diesel. Bit of chicken or egg. Did Rudolf invent the fuel? He certainly reduced the size of the oil engine principal to enable it to fit into land transport use from Sea and machine shop energy sources. I have been unable to locate any part where he actually invented the mineral oil known as Diesel oil
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Before Sweden´s entry into the EC, the system was built upon shared risks. It could be very difficult to have grants from the official funds. The first condition was almost always that your bank should be involved. Then maybe, you could have some grants - anways smaller than 50% of the project budget- from at least two of the official funds. This system was working out of incompetence and cowardness. The projects were always analyzed by the funds, but the general assumption was that the bank should contribute. And the banks are never interested in evaluating projects, they are interested in securities for their loans. So, this basically meant, that if your security was not good enough, nobody else would contribute either. There were exceptions though. The boards of the funds realized that they had the power to guide the development according to their own desires by giving grants to projects that would serve the temporary (political or administrative) wishes .How much lasting and pay-backing things that were created from this system, I think nobody knows. Jan - Original Message - From: lres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Thank you for the earlier reply. I don't suppose you would know if the following is correct or not. Australia had the maximum grant to any inventor set at AUD10,000. This was the maximum grant to enable development of an inventors idea. From memory the Swedes had a department that would analyse an idea and if seen to be possible then that department could be asked to assist the inventor to a much greater degree than the AUD10,000. This could be why the cassette was held by such interest and other every day consumable as well as technologically based items. Not much in the way of books, and only slow online here. Can you remember the late 60's and 70's when this system was meant to have been operating in Sweden? Doug. Håkan, it is obvious that no patent or manufacturing lisence will last for one houndrad years, espcecially considering the development of the diesel engine. But Scania is the inheritar of the original diesel engine. However, it is not flattering for us Swedes to be so historically involved and possibly even having promoted the petroleum substitute for the diesel engine. Particulary not, since there is a common imagnination that the discovery of petroleum made it possible for the combustion engine to arise, because of the unique properties of petroleum. Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Manufacturing rights as a whole to the diesel engine cannot be owned by Scania, only certain modifications that are done the last 25 years. It is no legal way, that I know of, to protect the original diesel engine for 100 years. The only legal way to protect manufacturing rights, is through patents and even they are not protected in certain countries. Patents are only valid for 25 years and the normal way is to patent modifications/enhancements to the original patent to prolong the patent protection of the most competitive product. Diesel might have had the idea as student, but he had financing for his development from the German coal industry. The contract was to develop his engine to run on coal dust. That is why there are always mentioning of coal dust, in conjunction with diesel. Kerrosene was at the time and today, used for lamps and heating. It is also a quality of kerrosene used for dry cleaning. The quality of crude that are economical for gasoline, will end before the crude suitable for fuel for diesel engine. If normal demand principles are governing the situation, the price gap between diesel and gasoline should widen in the future. It depends also on the space heating demands, where heating oil (diesel) is used for small buildings. Large buildings and Area centrals, use heavy oil and it will last longer than diesel. When we are talking of oil depletion, it is a very rough estimation. Certain oil products like gasoline are depleting faster than the generally used numbers. Oil products and their depletion is a much more complex situation. Hakan At 08:34 09/06/2006, you wrote: Yes, I am able to amswer some questions concerning Rudolf Diesel. He had his idea to his engine when he was a student of the technical academy. Once he had a ready prototype ( which was tested with several fuels ; gasoline, kerrosene and vegetable oils) he realized that he had to supply the fuel with the machine. So as a result of an agreement with Atlas Copco Diesel (member of the Wallenberg group) he had oil exploration rights in Baku, near the Caspian Sea through an oil company with head office in St Petersbrg Russia. This company was run by two relatives to Alfred
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Jan, You are right about the time before EC, I have personal experiences from this. When we needed the help it was very difficult to get it and we could not pursue it. Once when we were a proven success, they asked us and was upset when we said that we did not need any help from them. I must say that we had the same experiences from the Dutch banks also, Sweden was not the only ones who supported entrepreneurs. UK was the only country that had a good support program for software innovation and development at that time, around 30 years ago. Once when we were a proven success, they all cued up in offering us necessary help. In the end we were very happy that none of them were involved, including the venture capitalists. Hakan At 14:02 09/06/2006, you wrote: Before Sweden´s entry into the EC, the system was built upon shared risks. It could be very difficult to have grants from the official funds. The first condition was almost always that your bank should be involved. Then maybe, you could have some grants - anways smaller than 50% of the project budget- from at least two of the official funds. This system was working out of incompetence and cowardness. The projects were always analyzed by the funds, but the general assumption was that the bank should contribute. And the banks are never interested in evaluating projects, they are interested in securities for their loans. So, this basically meant, that if your security was not good enough, nobody else would contribute either. There were exceptions though. The boards of the funds realized that they had the power to guide the development according to their own desires by giving grants to projects that would serve the temporary (political or administrative) wishes .How much lasting and pay-backing things that were created from this system, I think nobody knows. Jan - Original Message - From: lres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Thank you for the earlier reply. I don't suppose you would know if the following is correct or not. Australia had the maximum grant to any inventor set at AUD10,000. This was the maximum grant to enable development of an inventors idea. From memory the Swedes had a department that would analyse an idea and if seen to be possible then that department could be asked to assist the inventor to a much greater degree than the AUD10,000. This could be why the cassette was held by such interest and other every day consumable as well as technologically based items. Not much in the way of books, and only slow online here. Can you remember the late 60's and 70's when this system was meant to have been operating in Sweden? Doug. Håkan, it is obvious that no patent or manufacturing lisence will last for one houndrad years, espcecially considering the development of the diesel engine. But Scania is the inheritar of the original diesel engine. However, it is not flattering for us Swedes to be so historically involved and possibly even having promoted the petroleum substitute for the diesel engine. Particulary not, since there is a common imagnination that the discovery of petroleum made it possible for the combustion engine to arise, because of the unique properties of petroleum. Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Manufacturing rights as a whole to the diesel engine cannot be owned by Scania, only certain modifications that are done the last 25 years. It is no legal way, that I know of, to protect the original diesel engine for 100 years. The only legal way to protect manufacturing rights, is through patents and even they are not protected in certain countries. Patents are only valid for 25 years and the normal way is to patent modifications/enhancements to the original patent to prolong the patent protection of the most competitive product. Diesel might have had the idea as student, but he had financing for his development from the German coal industry. The contract was to develop his engine to run on coal dust. That is why there are always mentioning of coal dust, in conjunction with diesel. Kerrosene was at the time and today, used for lamps and heating. It is also a quality of kerrosene used for dry cleaning. The quality of crude that are economical for gasoline, will end before the crude suitable for fuel for diesel engine. If normal demand principles are governing the situation, the price gap between diesel and gasoline should widen in the future. It depends also on the space heating demands, where heating oil (diesel) is used for small buildings. Large buildings and Area centrals, use heavy oil and it will last longer than diesel. When we are talking of oil depletion, it is a very
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Håkan, this is a terribly low performance for any nation which claims supporting entrepreneurs. And think of all the people busy with not supporting what they are suppose to support! What is the point of such a system and such a mentality ? Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, You are right about the time before EC, I have personal experiences from this. When we needed the help it was very difficult to get it and we could not pursue it. Once when we were a proven success, they asked us and was upset when we said that we did not need any help from them. I must say that we had the same experiences from the Dutch banks also, Sweden was not the only ones who supported entrepreneurs. UK was the only country that had a good support program for software innovation and development at that time, around 30 years ago. Once when we were a proven success, they all cued up in offering us necessary help. In the end we were very happy that none of them were involved, including the venture capitalists. Hakan At 14:02 09/06/2006, you wrote: Before Sweden´s entry into the EC, the system was built upon shared risks. It could be very difficult to have grants from the official funds. The first condition was almost always that your bank should be involved. Then maybe, you could have some grants - anways smaller than 50% of the project budget- from at least two of the official funds. This system was working out of incompetence and cowardness. The projects were always analyzed by the funds, but the general assumption was that the bank should contribute. And the banks are never interested in evaluating projects, they are interested in securities for their loans. So, this basically meant, that if your security was not good enough, nobody else would contribute either. There were exceptions though. The boards of the funds realized that they had the power to guide the development according to their own desires by giving grants to projects that would serve the temporary (political or administrative) wishes .How much lasting and pay-backing things that were created from this system, I think nobody knows. Jan - Original Message - From: lres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Thank you for the earlier reply. I don't suppose you would know if the following is correct or not. Australia had the maximum grant to any inventor set at AUD10,000. This was the maximum grant to enable development of an inventors idea. From memory the Swedes had a department that would analyse an idea and if seen to be possible then that department could be asked to assist the inventor to a much greater degree than the AUD10,000. This could be why the cassette was held by such interest and other every day consumable as well as technologically based items. Not much in the way of books, and only slow online here. Can you remember the late 60's and 70's when this system was meant to have been operating in Sweden? Doug. Håkan, it is obvious that no patent or manufacturing lisence will last for one houndrad years, espcecially considering the development of the diesel engine. But Scania is the inheritar of the original diesel engine. However, it is not flattering for us Swedes to be so historically involved and possibly even having promoted the petroleum substitute for the diesel engine. Particulary not, since there is a common imagnination that the discovery of petroleum made it possible for the combustion engine to arise, because of the unique properties of petroleum. Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Manufacturing rights as a whole to the diesel engine cannot be owned by Scania, only certain modifications that are done the last 25 years. It is no legal way, that I know of, to protect the original diesel engine for 100 years. The only legal way to protect manufacturing rights, is through patents and even they are not protected in certain countries. Patents are only valid for 25 years and the normal way is to patent modifications/enhancements to the original patent to prolong the patent protection of the most competitive product. Diesel might have had the idea as student, but he had financing for his development from the German coal industry. The contract was to develop his engine to run on coal dust. That is why there are always mentioning of coal dust, in conjunction with diesel. Kerrosene was at the time and today, used for lamps and heating. It is also a quality of kerrosene used for dry cleaning. The quality of crude that are economical for gasoline, will end
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Once the intake is closed and the concentrated sun starts its work the system is a closed oneso oxidizer/fuel density is unchanged. All you see is increased cylinder pressure and hotter coal dust and air. - less the motion of the piston during this time. I envision this engine as very slow moving, 100RPM or less. Maybe as slow as some of Ericsons machines.KirkMichael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Kirk,It's a very novel approach but, with all due respect, I thinkthe thermodynamics of this process needs a closer look.The origins of all mechanical energy can (eventually) be traced back to temperature changes. So, your intentions are in the right place.Thermal expansion as part of a cycle of combustionisa function of how low the mass of fuel and air is in comparison to the temperature during combustion. This not only causes a greater delta T by simple temperature comparison but, it also effects fuel density as explained by the ideal gas equation, PV=nRT.I haven't taken a thermo class in about fourteen years so,this observation could be refined. I'm going by memory here.MikeKirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Because it will absorb solar radiation. and since there is a suspension transfer to the air will be rapid. This all happens BEFORE ignition. Then oxidation does the final rise in temperature. Much higher delta T with same investment in O2 and hydrocarbon. And the hydrocarbon is nearignition point so unburned is not as much of a problem. If tapioca was black and finely divided that would be ok too. Assuming it was water free. Sugar has a lot of water too. - and it isnt the best solar absorber.I always managed to take milk for my coffee. That powdered crap isnt fit for pigs. In a pinch take canned milk.KirkJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why pray tell COAL dust then? Many dusts are combustible. How about tapioca? How about icing sugar? Ever throw coffeemate into your campfire? (stand well back if you try thisunless it is part of a ritual dance of course)lolJoeKirk McLoren wrote: Actually a solar/coaldust hybrid could have potential. Putting solar heat into air is difficult to do speedily and coal dust could be finely dispersed. The bottom end could be solar. Certainly save on emissions and help achieve complete combustion.A cylinder with a quartz window. Kirk [snip]___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Jan, For us it turned out very good anyway. We sold for value comparable to 500 Million $ in todays money, shared by founders and key staff. A nice and good transaction for everybody. Some of the partners went on and formed a company called Small World (facility management software) and sold it in a very good deal to GE, who was a major client, a couple of years ago. Also an example of good balance between founders and staff interest, all cashed in on hard work and innovation, with the same model that I introduced for the first adventure. Hakan At 15:27 09/06/2006, you wrote: Håkan, this is a terribly low performance for any nation which claims supporting entrepreneurs. And think of all the people busy with not supporting what they are suppose to support! What is the point of such a system and such a mentality ? Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, You are right about the time before EC, I have personal experiences from this. When we needed the help it was very difficult to get it and we could not pursue it. Once when we were a proven success, they asked us and was upset when we said that we did not need any help from them. I must say that we had the same experiences from the Dutch banks also, Sweden was not the only ones who supported entrepreneurs. UK was the only country that had a good support program for software innovation and development at that time, around 30 years ago. Once when we were a proven success, they all cued up in offering us necessary help. In the end we were very happy that none of them were involved, including the venture capitalists. Hakan At 14:02 09/06/2006, you wrote: Before Sweden´s entry into the EC, the system was built upon shared risks. It could be very difficult to have grants from the official funds. The first condition was almost always that your bank should be involved. Then maybe, you could have some grants - anways smaller than 50% of the project budget- from at least two of the official funds. This system was working out of incompetence and cowardness. The projects were always analyzed by the funds, but the general assumption was that the bank should contribute. And the banks are never interested in evaluating projects, they are interested in securities for their loans. So, this basically meant, that if your security was not good enough, nobody else would contribute either. There were exceptions though. The boards of the funds realized that they had the power to guide the development according to their own desires by giving grants to projects that would serve the temporary (political or administrative) wishes .How much lasting and pay-backing things that were created from this system, I think nobody knows. Jan - Original Message - From: lres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Thank you for the earlier reply. I don't suppose you would know if the following is correct or not. Australia had the maximum grant to any inventor set at AUD10,000. This was the maximum grant to enable development of an inventors idea. From memory the Swedes had a department that would analyse an idea and if seen to be possible then that department could be asked to assist the inventor to a much greater degree than the AUD10,000. This could be why the cassette was held by such interest and other every day consumable as well as technologically based items. Not much in the way of books, and only slow online here. Can you remember the late 60's and 70's when this system was meant to have been operating in Sweden? Doug. Håkan, it is obvious that no patent or manufacturing lisence will last for one houndrad years, espcecially considering the development of the diesel engine. But Scania is the inheritar of the original diesel engine. However, it is not flattering for us Swedes to be so historically involved and possibly even having promoted the petroleum substitute for the diesel engine. Particulary not, since there is a common imagnination that the discovery of petroleum made it possible for the combustion engine to arise, because of the unique properties of petroleum. Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Manufacturing rights as a whole to the diesel engine cannot be owned by Scania, only certain modifications that are done the last 25 years. It is no legal way, that I know of, to protect the original diesel engine for 100 years. The only legal way to protect manufacturing rights, is through patents and even they are not protected in certain
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Ah...I see. You wrote: "Once the intake is closed and the concentrated sun starts its work ** the system is a closed one ** so oxidizer/fuel density is unchanged." That makes a lot more sense. Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Once the intake is closed and the concentrated sun starts its work the system is a closed oneso oxidizer/fuel density is unchanged. All you see is increased cylinder pressure and hotter coal dust and air. - less the motion of the piston during this time. I envision this engine as very slow moving, 100RPM or less. Maybe as slow as some of Ericsons machines. Kirk Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk, It's a very novel approach but, with all due respect, I thinkthe thermodynamics of this process needs a closer look. The origins of all mechanical energy can (eventually) be traced back to temperature changes. So, your intentions are in the right place.Thermal expansion as part of a cycle of combustionisa function of how low the mass of fuel and air is in comparison to the temperature during combustion. This not only causes a greater delta T by simple temperature comparison but, it also effects fuel density as explained by the ideal gas equation, PV=nRT. I haven't taken a thermo class in about fourteen years so,this observation could be refined. I'm going by memory here. Mike Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Because it will absorb solar radiation. and since there is a suspension transfer to the air will be rapid. This all happens BEFORE ignition. Then oxidation does the final rise in temperature. Much higher delta T with same investment in O2 and hydrocarbon. And the hydrocarbon is nearignition point so unburned is not as much of a problem. If tapioca was black and finely divided that would be ok too. Assuming it was water free. Sugar has a lot of water too. - and it isnt the best solar absorber. I always managed to take milk for my coffee. That powdered crap isnt fit for pigs. In a pinch take canned milk. Kirk Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why pray tell COAL dust then? Many dusts are combustible. How about tapioca? How about icing sugar? Ever throw coffeemate into your campfire? (stand well back if you try thisunless it is part of a ritual dance of course) lol Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: Actually a solar/coaldust hybrid could have potential. Putting solar heat into air is difficult to do speedily and coal dust could be finely dispersed. The bottom end could be solar. Certainly save on emissions and help achieve complete combustion.A cylinder with a quartz window. Kirk [snip] _ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Silly Diesel and Ford. Everyone knows cars can't run on ethanol. That's why we, as humans, travel thousands of miles and invest billions of dollars in drilling rigs, pipelines, refineries, supertankers, and oil wars. What were they thinking? Fuel from plants? That's preposterous! What have plants ever done for us? Last time I ran into some sumac, I had a terrible rash for weeks! Everyone knows global warming is a big fraud invented by a joint effort between Greenpeace and the Democratic party to scare children away from playing hooky from school in the winter months to make snowmen. Just like love is a big fraud invented by Hallmark and Disney in an effort to increase revenues! They must have been smoking that hemp and/or drinking its distillate. -John On Jun 8, 2006, at 8:17 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years. Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfm http://alerts.organicconsumers.org/trk/click?ref=zqtbkk3um_0- ax332x3239551 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future redux
Mike W, You are right!!! I did not realize that the plastic surgery advanced to this level, or is it a brain transplant? Hakan At 14:22 08/06/2006, you wrote: Is Bush really Dan Quayle? Why wouldn't an enhanced deterrent, a more stable peace, a better prospect to denying the ones who enter conflict in the first place to have a reduction of offensive systems and an introduction to defensive capability. I believe that is the route this country will eventually go. --V.P. D.Q. Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child. --V.P. D.Q. Mars is essentially in the same orbit... somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe. --V.P. D.Q. Hawaii has always been a very pivotal role in the Pacific. It is *in* the Pacific. It is a part of the United States that is an island that is right here. --V.P. D.Q., Hawaii, September 1989 What a terrible thing to have lost one's mind. Or not to have a mind at all. How true that is. --V.P. D.Q. winning friends while speaking to the United Negro College Fund You all look like happy campers to me. Happy campers you are, happy campers you have been, and, as far as I am concerned, happy campers you will always be. --V.P. D.Q., to the American Samoans, whose capital Quayle pronounces Pogo Pogo. Quayle stumbled in response to a question about his opinion of the Holocaust. He said it was an obscene period in our nation's history. Then, trying to clarify his remark, Quayle said he meant this century's history and added a confusing comment. We all lived in this century, I didn't live in this century, he said. --V.P. D.Q. We expect them [Salvadoran officials] to work toward the elimination of human rights. --V.P. D.Q. El Salvador is a democracy so it's not surprising that there are many voices to be heard here. Yet in my conversations with Salvadorans... I have heard a single voice. --V.P. D.Q. I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy--but that could change. --V.P. D.Q. One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is to be prepared. --V.P. D.Q. If we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure. --V.P. D.Q., to the Phoenix Republican Forum, March 1990 It's rural America. It's where I came from. We always refer to ourselves as real America. Rural America, real America, real, real, America. --V.P. D.Q. Target prices? How that works? I know quite a bit about farm policy. I come from Indiana, which is a farm state. Deficiency payments - which are the key--that is what gets money into the farmer's hands. We got loan, uh, rates, we got target, uh, prices, uh, I have worked very closely with my senior colleague, (Indiana Sen.) Richard Lugar, making sure that the farmers of Indiana are taken care of. --V.P. D.Q. on being asked to define the term target prices. Quayle's press secretary then cut short the press conference, after two minutes and 30 seconds. I not going to focus on what I have done in the past what I stand for, what I articulate to the American people. The American people will judge me on what I am saying and what I have done in the last 12 years in the Congress. --V.P. D.Q. I want to be Robin to Bush's Batman. --V.P. D.Q. We should develop anti-satellite weapons because we could not have prevailed without them in Red Storm Rising. --V.P. D.Q. The US has a vital interest in that area of the country. --V.P. D.Q. Referring to Latin America. Japan is an important ally of ours. Japan and the United States of the Western industrialized capacity, 60 percent of the GNP, two countries. That's a statement in and of itself. --V.P. D.Q. May our nation continue to be the beakon of hope to the world. --The Quayle's 1989 Christmas card. [Not a beacon of literacy, though.] Well, it looks as if the top part fell on the bottom part. --V.P. D.Q. referring to the collapsed section of the 880 freeway after the San Francisco earthquake of 1989. [this may be a joke; the source is unclear, but it's still funny] ...getting [cruise missiles] more accurate so that we can have precise precision. --V.P. D.Q. referring to his legislative work dealing with cruise missiles I can identify with steelworkers. I can identify with workers that have had a difficult time. --V.P. D.Q. addressing workers at an Ohio steel plant,1988 [I will never have] another Jimmy Carter grain embargo, Jimmy, Jimmy Carter, Jimmy Carter grain embargo, Jimmy Carter grain embargo. --V.P. D.Q. during the Bentson debate Certainly, I know what to do, and when I am Vice President--and I will be--there will be contingency plans under different sets of situations and I tell you what, I'm not going to go out and hold a news conference about it. I'm going to put it in a safe and keep it there! Does that answer your question? --V.P. D.Q.
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
In the early days when the Standard had competition from alcohol it was alleged the reason railroad tank cars arrrived without their cargo was John's boys had sabotaged them. Of course that couldn't be true - could it?Also if you have access to a Mark's Handbook printed prior to WWIII look up Frank Shumann and C.V. Boys - http://www.solarmillennium.de/pdf/PiStaRep.pdf see 4.1 - document is a 3 megabyte pdf will tell you a bit about it. Marks Handbook for mechanical engineers had 3 pages with sketches. Newer books do not mention it.Kirk John Beale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Silly Diesel and Ford. Everyone knows cars can't run on ethanol. That's why we, as humans, travel thousands of miles and invest billions of dollars in drilling rigs, pipelines, refineries, supertankers, and oil wars.What were they thinking? Fuel from plants? That's preposterous! What have plants ever done for us? Last time I ran into some sumac, I had a terrible rash for weeks!Everyone knows global warming is a big fraud invented by a joint effort between Greenpeace and the Democratic party to scare children away from playing hooky from school in the winter months to make snowmen. Just like love is a big fraud invented by Hallmark and Disney in an effort to increase revenues!They must have been smoking that hemp and/or drinking its distillate.-JohnOn Jun 8, 2006, at 8:17 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: "The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years." Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfm ax332x3239551 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Ahh here it is: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg62146.html J Mike Weaver wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Didn't Keith debunk that myth here just recently? Well this isn't the message I remember but it says basically the same thing... http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg60497.html Joe Mike Weaver wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
* Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. Aarghh!!! Not the old Rudolf and the Peanut Oil fairytale again! Facts: 1893 Rudolf Diesel patents the diesel engine. 1900 Rudolf Diesel is twice awarded the Grand Prix at both Paris World Fairs (1900 and 1910) for inventing and developing his engine. But no peanut oil. The true story: ... excerpts from some of Dr Diesels' work, that he published 1912 and 1913, where he states that it was the Otto Company that ran one of his engines on peanut oil at the request of the French government during the 1900 World Fair. He later conducted some trails where he determined fuel consumption and assessed operability. He also mentions similar successful experiments in St. Petersburg using castor oil and animal oils. - Darren Hill It WASN'T him! I recently borrowed his book The Development of the Diesel Engine -afaik the last one he published until he drowned himself in the Channel. All kinds of fuels that had been tested are described there, from coal dust over weird chemical mixtures that had been sent to Diesel by the industry to all sorts of crude oil and even tar-oil. Vegoil just got about 4 lines- remarking that it was the French Otto-Company (yes the Otto-engine!) that ran Diesel's engine on peanut oil: The engine was built for crude oil and was used without any modification on vegoilit worked so well that only a few insiders took notice of this insignificant circumstance. (Diesel, Rudolf. 1913. Die Entstehung des Dieselmotors 1st reprint by Braun, Hans-Joachim (Ed). 1984. Moers: Steiger. Page 115.). - Stephan Helbig Best Keith * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years. Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfm http://alerts.organicconsumers.org/trk/click?ref=zqtbkk3um_0-ax332x3239551; ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Keith, Coal dust is the key, because it was the coal industry who paid for the development of the diesel engine. Observing that coal dust is almost explosive, they had they idea that it could be sold and used for an engine, instead of piling up as useless trash mountains. Diesel did not successfully manage to develop the coal dust engine, but instead it was running on almost anything else. Hakan At 16:14 08/06/2006, you wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. Aarghh!!! Not the old Rudolf and the Peanut Oil fairytale again! Facts: 1893 Rudolf Diesel patents the diesel engine. 1900 Rudolf Diesel is twice awarded the Grand Prix at both Paris World Fairs (1900 and 1910) for inventing and developing his engine. But no peanut oil. The true story: ... excerpts from some of Dr Diesels' work, that he published 1912 and 1913, where he states that it was the Otto Company that ran one of his engines on peanut oil at the request of the French government during the 1900 World Fair. He later conducted some trails where he determined fuel consumption and assessed operability. He also mentions similar successful experiments in St. Petersburg using castor oil and animal oils. - Darren Hill It WASN'T him! I recently borrowed his book The Development of the Diesel Engine -afaik the last one he published until he drowned himself in the Channel. All kinds of fuels that had been tested are described there, from coal dust over weird chemical mixtures that had been sent to Diesel by the industry to all sorts of crude oil and even tar-oil. Vegoil just got about 4 lines- remarking that it was the French Otto-Company (yes the Otto-engine!) that ran Diesel's engine on peanut oil: The engine was built for crude oil and was used without any modification on vegoilit worked so well that only a few insiders took notice of this insignificant circumstance. (Diesel, Rudolf. 1913. Die Entstehung des Dieselmotors 1st reprint by Braun, Hans-Joachim (Ed). 1984. Moers: Steiger. Page 115.). - Stephan Helbig Best Keith * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years. Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfm http://alerts.organicconsumers.org/trk/click?ref=zqtbkk3um_0-ax332 x3239551 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Actually, Diesel was contracted by the German navy to create an engine that ran on coal dust. In the process there were several explosive failures resulting in deaths. The presumption is made that Diesel used vegetable oils to reduce the explosive properties of coal dust. Eventually, and again presumabley, the ratio of oil to dust became high enough and the benefits noticeable enough that Diesel began testing slurries and in time pure plant oil. Todd Swearingen Mike Weaver wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years. Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfm http://alerts.organicconsumers.org/trk/click?ref=zqtbkk3um_0-ax332x3239551; ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Actually a solar/coaldust hybrid could have potential. Putting solar heat into air is difficult to do speedily and coal dust could be finely dispersed. The bottom end could be solar. Certainly save on emissions and help achieve complete combustion.A cylinder with a quartz window.KirkHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith,Coal dust is the key, because it was the coal industry who paid forthe development of the diesel engine. Observing that coal dust isalmost explosive, they had they idea that it could be sold and usedfor an engine, instead of piling up as useless trash mountains.Diesel did not successfully manage to develop the coal dust engine,but instead it was running on almost anything else.HakanAt 16:14 08/06/2006, you wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil.Aarghh!!! Not the old Rudolf and the Peanut Oil fairytale again!Facts:1893 Rudolf Diesel patents the diesel engine.1900 Rudolf Diesel is twice awarded the Grand Prix at both ParisWorld Fairs (1900 and 1910) for inventing and developing his engine.But no peanut oil. The true story:"... excerpts from some of Dr Diesels' work, that he published 1912and 1913, where he states that it was the Otto Company that ran oneof his engines on peanut oil at the request of the French governmentduring the 1900 World Fair. He later conducted some trails where hedetermined fuel consumption and assessed operability. He alsomentions similar successful experiments in St. Petersburg usingcastor oil and animal oils." - Darren Hill"It WASN'T him! I recently borrowed his book "The Development of theDiesel Engine" -afaik the last one he published until he drownedhimself in the Channel. All kinds of fuels that had been tested aredescribed there, from coal dust over weird chemical mixtures that hadbeen sent to Diesel by the industry to all sorts of crude oil andeven tar-oil. Vegoil just got about 4 lines- remarking that it wasthe French "Otto-Company" (yes the Otto-engine!) that ran Diesel'sengine on peanut oil: "The engine was built for crude oil and wasused without any modification on vegoil."..."it worked so well thatonly a few insiders took notice of this insignificant circumstance."(Diesel, Rudolf. 1913. Die Entstehung des Dieselmotors" 1st reprintby Braun, Hans-Joachim (Ed). 1984. Moers: Steiger. Page 115.)." -Stephan HelbigBestKeith * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: "The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years." Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfm x3239551___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Why pray tell COAL dust then? Many dusts are combustible. How about tapioca? How about icing sugar? Ever throw coffeemate into your campfire? (stand well back if you try thisunless it is part of a ritual dance of course) lol Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: Actually a solar/coaldust hybrid could have potential. Putting solar heat into air is difficult to do speedily and coal dust could be finely dispersed. The bottom end could be solar. Certainly save on emissions and help achieve complete combustion.A cylinder with a quartz window. Kirk */Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Keith, Coal dust is the key, because it was the coal industry who paid for the development of the diesel engine. Observing that coal dust is almost explosive, they had they idea that it could be sold and used for an engine, instead of piling up as useless trash mountains. Diesel did not successfully manage to develop the coal dust engine, but instead it was running on almost anything else. Hakan At 16:14 08/06/2006, you wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. Aarghh!!! Not the old Rudolf and the Peanut Oil fairytale again! Facts: 1893 Rudolf Diesel patents the diesel engine. 1900 Rudolf Diesel is twice awarded the Grand Prix at both Paris World Fairs (1900 and 1910) for inventing and developing his engine. But no peanut oil. The true story: ... excerpts from some of Dr Diesels' work, that he published 1912 and 1913, where he states that it was the Otto Company that ran one of his engines on peanut oil at the request of the French government during the 1900 World Fair. He later conducted some trails where he determined fuel consumption and assessed operability. He also mentions similar successful experiments in St. Petersburg using castor oil and animal oils. - Darren Hill It WASN'T him! I recently borrowed his book The Development of the Diesel Engine -afaik the last one he published until he drowned himself in the Channel. All kinds of fuels that had been tested are described there, from coal dust over weird chemical mixtures that had been sent to Diesel by the industry to all sorts of crude oil and even tar-oil. Vegoil just got about 4 lines- remarking that it was the French Otto-Company (yes the Otto-engine!) that ran Diesel's engine on peanut oil: The engine was built for crude oil and was used without any modification on vegoilit worked so well that only a few insiders took notice of this insignificant circumstance. (Diesel, Rudolf. 1913. Die Entstehung des Dieselmotors 1st reprint by Braun, Hans-Joachim (Ed). 1984. Moers: Steiger. Page 115.). - Stephan Helbig Best Keith * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years. Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfm x3239551 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Because it will absorb solar radiation. and since there is a suspension transfer to the air will be rapid. This all happens BEFORE ignition. Then oxidation does the final rise in temperature. Much higher delta T with same investment in O2 and hydrocarbon. And the hydrocarbon is nearignition point so unburned is not as much of a problem. If tapioca was black and finely divided that would be ok too. Assuming it was water free. Sugar has a lot of water too. - and it isnt the best solar absorber.I always managed to take milk for my coffee. That powdered crap isnt fit for pigs. In a pinch take canned milk.KirkJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why pray tell COAL dust then? Many dusts are combustible. How about tapioca? How about icing sugar? Ever throw coffeemate into your campfire? (stand well back if you try thisunless it is part of a ritual dance of course)lolJoeKirk McLoren wrote: Actually a solar/coaldust hybrid could have potential. Putting solar heat into air is difficult to do speedily and coal dust could be finely dispersed. The bottom end could be solar. Certainly save on emissions and help achieve complete combustion.A cylinder with a quartz window. Kirk */Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Keith, Coal dust is the key, because it was the coal industry who paid for the development of the diesel engine. Observing that coal dust is almost explosive, they had they idea that it could be sold and used for an engine, instead of piling up as useless trash mountains. Diesel did not successfully manage to develop the coal dust engine, but instead it was running on almost anything else. Hakan At 16:14 08/06/2006, you wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. Aarghh!!! Not the old Rudolf and the Peanut Oil fairytale again! Facts: 1893 Rudolf Diesel patents the diesel engine. 1900 Rudolf Diesel is twice awarded the Grand Prix at both Paris World Fairs (1900 and 1910) for inventing and developing his engine. But no peanut oil. The true story: "... excerpts from some of Dr Diesels' work, that he published 1912 and 1913, where he states that it was the Otto Company that ran one of his engines on peanut oil at the request of the French government during the 1900 World Fair. He later conducted some trails where he determined fuel consumption and assessed operability. He also mentions similar successful experiments in St. Petersburg using castor oil and animal oils." - Darren Hill "It WASN'T him! I recently borrowed his book "The Development of the Diesel Engine" -afaik the last one he published until he drowned himself in the Channel. All kinds of fuels that had been tested are described there, from coal dust over weird chemical mixtures that had been sent to Diesel by the industry to all sorts of crude oil and even tar-oil. Vegoil just got about 4 lines- remarking that it was the French "Otto-Company" (yes the Otto-engine!) that ran Diesel's engine on peanut oil: "The engine was built for crude oil and was used without any modification on vegoil."..."it worked so well that only a few insiders took notice of this insignificant circumstance." (Diesel, Rudolf. 1913. Die Entstehung des Dieselmotors" 1st reprint by Braun, Hans-Joachim (Ed). 1984. Moers: Steiger. Page 115.)." - Stephan Helbig Best Keith * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: "The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years." Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfmx3239551___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future - THE TRUTH
Uh, Keith, hate to burst your bubble, but it is well-established that Rudolph Diesel designed his engine primarily to atomize hemp oil, in order to reap its psychopharmacological benefits. It was really just a big metal bong. The production of rotational torque was a side effect, and neccessary to keep the law enforcement people off his back. It was somewhat later, at a diesel party, that an attendee (the Cheech Marin of his day) said 23 skidoo, man, we should put this device into a horseless carriage and drive around, then everyone could share the effects. This they did, and the Roaring Twenties were born. The Jazz Age was not due to bathtub gin, but rather hemp oil smoke blanketing the cities. New York City, and in particular Wall Street, had the largest concentration of hemp oil powered cars, and hence most of the frenzy started there. People did not buy stocks because of any irrational exuberance; they were stoned. It all came crashing down when John D Rockefeller of Standard oil got hemp oil outlawed as a motor fuel, and forced the country to burn petroleum instead. Once people sobered up, they quit buying stock, and the Great Depression started. If only we would go back to burning hemp oil our problems would be over. Please correct your Facts: below, and I would appreciate it if you could devote an entire part on the JtF site to getting the truth out. Also, if you could put a sponsored by Mike Weaver's Hemp Oil Engines - just 599.99 payable in cash and a link to my website that would be great. -Weaver Keith Addison wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. Aarghh!!! Not the old Rudolf and the Peanut Oil fairytale again! Facts: 1893 Rudolf Diesel patents the diesel engine. 1900 Rudolf Diesel is twice awarded the Grand Prix at both Paris World Fairs (1900 and 1910) for inventing and developing his engine. But no peanut oil. The true story: ... excerpts from some of Dr Diesels' work, that he published 1912 and 1913, where he states that it was the Otto Company that ran one of his engines on peanut oil at the request of the French government during the 1900 World Fair. He later conducted some trails where he determined fuel consumption and assessed operability. He also mentions similar successful experiments in St. Petersburg using castor oil and animal oils. - Darren Hill It WASN'T him! I recently borrowed his book The Development of the Diesel Engine -afaik the last one he published until he drowned himself in the Channel. All kinds of fuels that had been tested are described there, from coal dust over weird chemical mixtures that had been sent to Diesel by the industry to all sorts of crude oil and even tar-oil. Vegoil just got about 4 lines- remarking that it was the French Otto-Company (yes the Otto-engine!) that ran Diesel's engine on peanut oil: The engine was built for crude oil and was used without any modification on vegoilit worked so well that only a few insiders took notice of this insignificant circumstance. (Diesel, Rudolf. 1913. Die Entstehung des Dieselmotors 1st reprint by Braun, Hans-Joachim (Ed). 1984. Moers: Steiger. Page 115.). - Stephan Helbig Best Keith * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years. Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfm http://alerts.organicconsumers.org/trk/click?ref=zqtbkk3um_0-ax332x3239551; ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Actually, In1981, Ronald Reagan noted that trees cause more pollution than automobiles. So you're right. Let's get rid of all the plants! John Beale wrote: Silly Diesel and Ford. Everyone knows cars can't run on ethanol. That's why we, as humans, travel thousands of miles and invest billions of dollars in drilling rigs, pipelines, refineries, supertankers, and oil wars. What were they thinking? Fuel from plants? That's preposterous! What have plants ever done for us? Last time I ran into some sumac, I had a terrible rash for weeks! Everyone knows global warming is a big fraud invented by a joint effort between Greenpeace and the Democratic party to scare children away from playing hooky from school in the winter months to make snowmen. Just like love is a big fraud invented by Hallmark and Disney in an effort to increase revenues! They must have been smoking that hemp and/or drinking its distillate. -John On Jun 8, 2006, at 8:17 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years. Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfm http://alerts.organicconsumers.org/trk/click?ref=zqtbkk3um_0- ax332x3239551 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future redux
Everything old is new... Hakan Falk wrote: Mike W, You are right!!! I did not realize that the plastic surgery advanced to this level, or is it a brain transplant? Hakan At 14:22 08/06/2006, you wrote: Is Bush really Dan Quayle? Why wouldn't an enhanced deterrent, a more stable peace, a better prospect to denying the ones who enter conflict in the first place to have a reduction of offensive systems and an introduction to defensive capability. I believe that is the route this country will eventually go. --V.P. D.Q. Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child. --V.P. D.Q. Mars is essentially in the same orbit... somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe. --V.P. D.Q. Hawaii has always been a very pivotal role in the Pacific. It is *in* the Pacific. It is a part of the United States that is an island that is right here. --V.P. D.Q., Hawaii, September 1989 What a terrible thing to have lost one's mind. Or not to have a mind at all. How true that is. --V.P. D.Q. winning friends while speaking to the United Negro College Fund You all look like happy campers to me. Happy campers you are, happy campers you have been, and, as far as I am concerned, happy campers you will always be. --V.P. D.Q., to the American Samoans, whose capital Quayle pronounces Pogo Pogo. Quayle stumbled in response to a question about his opinion of the Holocaust. He said it was an obscene period in our nation's history. Then, trying to clarify his remark, Quayle said he meant this century's history and added a confusing comment. We all lived in this century, I didn't live in this century, he said. --V.P. D.Q. We expect them [Salvadoran officials] to work toward the elimination of human rights. --V.P. D.Q. El Salvador is a democracy so it's not surprising that there are many voices to be heard here. Yet in my conversations with Salvadorans... I have heard a single voice. --V.P. D.Q. I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy--but that could change. --V.P. D.Q. One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is to be prepared. --V.P. D.Q. If we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure. --V.P. D.Q., to the Phoenix Republican Forum, March 1990 It's rural America. It's where I came from. We always refer to ourselves as real America. Rural America, real America, real, real, America. --V.P. D.Q. Target prices? How that works? I know quite a bit about farm policy. I come from Indiana, which is a farm state. Deficiency payments - which are the key--that is what gets money into the farmer's hands. We got loan, uh, rates, we got target, uh, prices, uh, I have worked very closely with my senior colleague, (Indiana Sen.) Richard Lugar, making sure that the farmers of Indiana are taken care of. --V.P. D.Q. on being asked to define the term target prices. Quayle's press secretary then cut short the press conference, after two minutes and 30 seconds. I not going to focus on what I have done in the past what I stand for, what I articulate to the American people. The American people will judge me on what I am saying and what I have done in the last 12 years in the Congress. --V.P. D.Q. I want to be Robin to Bush's Batman. --V.P. D.Q. We should develop anti-satellite weapons because we could not have prevailed without them in Red Storm Rising. --V.P. D.Q. The US has a vital interest in that area of the country. --V.P. D.Q. Referring to Latin America. Japan is an important ally of ours. Japan and the United States of the Western industrialized capacity, 60 percent of the GNP, two countries. That's a statement in and of itself. --V.P. D.Q. May our nation continue to be the beakon of hope to the world. --The Quayle's 1989 Christmas card. [Not a beacon of literacy, though.] Well, it looks as if the top part fell on the bottom part. --V.P. D.Q. referring to the collapsed section of the 880 freeway after the San Francisco earthquake of 1989. [this may be a joke; the source is unclear, but it's still funny] ...getting [cruise missiles] more accurate so that we can have precise precision. --V.P. D.Q. referring to his legislative work dealing with cruise missiles I can identify with steelworkers. I can identify with workers that have had a difficult time. --V.P. D.Q. addressing workers at an Ohio steel plant,1988 [I will never have] another Jimmy Carter grain embargo, Jimmy, Jimmy Carter, Jimmy Carter grain embargo, Jimmy Carter grain embargo. --V.P. D.Q. during the Bentson debate Certainly, I know what to do, and when I am Vice President--and I will be--there will be contingency plans under different sets of situations and I tell you what, I'm not going to go out and hold a news conference about it. I'm going to put it in a safe and keep it
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Oh yeah me too coffee (shade grown fair trade) is much too precious for any edible oil product like coffeemate. The only true use for it is as a burnt offering to the sun god to ensure the rest of your backpacking trip is rain free. Works well in arid regions. ;) Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: snip I always managed to take milk for my coffee. That powdered crap isnt fit for pigs. In a pinch take canned milk. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Oh yeah I forgot to mention burnt hemp oil is an essential part of this ritual. Just ask Mike 'oil sheik' Weaver he is an expert on the subject. J Joe Street wrote: Oh yeah me too coffee (shade grown fair trade) is much too precious for any edible oil product like coffeemate. The only true use for it is as a burnt offering to the sun god to ensure the rest of your backpacking trip is rain free. Works well in arid regions. ;) Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: snip I always managed to take milk for my coffee. That powdered crap isnt fit for pigs. In a pinch take canned milk. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future - THE TRUTH
Works for me! Mike Weaver wrote: sip If only we would go back to burning hemp oil our problems would be over. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Kirk,It's a very novel approach but, with all due respect, I thinkthe thermodynamics of this process needs a closer look.The origins of all mechanical energy can (eventually) be traced back to temperature changes. So, your intentions are in the right place.Thermal expansion as part of a cycle of combustionisa function of how low the mass of fuel and air is in comparison to the temperature during combustion. This not only causes a greater delta T by simple temperature comparison but, it also effects fuel density as explained by the ideal gas equation, PV=nRT.I haven't taken a thermo class in about fourteen years so,this observation could be refined. I'm going by memory here.MikeKirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Because it will absorb solar radiation. and since there is a suspension transfer to the air will be rapid. This all happens BEFORE ignition. Then oxidation does the final rise in temperature. Much higher delta T with same investment in O2 and hydrocarbon. And the hydrocarbon is nearignition point so unburned is not as much of a problem. If tapioca was black and finely divided that would be ok too. Assuming it was water free. Sugar has a lot of water too. - and it isnt the best solar absorber.I always managed to take milk for my coffee. That powdered crap isnt fit for pigs. In a pinch take canned milk.KirkJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why pray tell COAL dust then? Many dusts are combustible. How about tapioca? How about icing sugar? Ever throw coffeemate into your campfire? (stand well back if you try thisunless it is part of a ritual dance of course)lolJoeKirk McLoren wrote: Actually a solar/coaldust hybrid could have potential. Putting solar heat into air is difficult to do speedily and coal dust could be finely dispersed. The bottom end could be solar. Certainly save on emissions and help achieve complete combustion.A cylinder with a quartz window. Kirk [snip]___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future - THE TRUTH
Thanks Weaver!...if only his dream could be kept alive!Gridlock would take on a whole new meaning and I'd open a burger joint (pun intended) downtown.:-)-RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Uh, Keith, hate to burst your bubble, but it is well-established that Rudolph Diesel designed his"engine" primarily to atomize hemp oil, in order to reap its psychopharmacological benefits. It was really just a big metal bong.The production of rotational torque was a side effect, and neccessary to keep the law enforcement people off his back. It wassomewhat later, at a "diesel party," that an attendee (the Cheech Marin of his day) said "23 skidoo, man, we should put this device into ahorseless carriage and drive around, then everyone could share the effects." This they did, and the Roaring Twenties were born. The Jazz Age wasnot due to bathtub gin, but rather hemp oil smoke blanketing the cities. New York City, and in particular Wall Street, had the largestconcentration of hemp oil powered cars, and hence most of the frenzy started there. People did not buy stocks because of any"irrational exuberance;" they were stoned.It all came crashing down when John D Rockefeller of Standard oil got hemp oil outlawed as a motor fuel, and forced the country to burn petroleum instead.Once people sobered up, they quit buying stock, and the Great Depression started.If only we would go back to burning hemp oil our problems would be over.Please correct your "Facts:" below, and I would appreciate it if you could devote an entire part on the JtF site to getting the truth out. Also,if you could put a "sponsored by Mike Weaver's Hemp Oil Engines - just 599.99 payable in cash" and a link to my website that would be great.-WeaverKeith Addison wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. Aarghh!!! Not the old Rudolf and the Peanut Oil fairytale again!Facts:1893 Rudolf Diesel patents the diesel engine.1900 Rudolf Diesel is twice awarded the Grand Prix at both Paris World Fairs (1900 and 1910) for inventing and developing his engine.But no peanut oil. The true story:"... excerpts from some of Dr Diesels' work, that he published 1912 and 1913, where he states that it was the Otto Company that ran one of his engines on peanut oil at the request of the French government during the 1900 World Fair. He later conducted some trails where he determined fuel consumption and assessed operability. He also mentions similar successful experiments in St. Petersburg using castor oil and animal oils." - Darren Hill"It WASN'T him! I recently borrowed his book "The Development of the Diesel Engine" -afaik the last one he published until he drowned himself in the Channel. All kinds of fuels that had been tested are described there, from coal dust over weird chemical mixtures that had been sent to Diesel by the industry to all sorts of crude oil and even tar-oil. Vegoil just got about 4 lines- remarking that it was the French "Otto-Company" (yes the Otto-engine!) that ran Diesel's engine on peanut oil: "The engine was built for crude oil and was used without any modification on vegoil."..."it worked so well that only a few insiders took notice of this insignificant circumstance." (Diesel, Rudolf. 1913. Die Entstehung des Dieselmotors" 1st reprint by Braun, Hans-Joachim (Ed). 1984. Moers: Steiger. Page 115.)." - Stephan HelbigBestKeith [snip]___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
