Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Dawie Coetzee]

I work in that field, and I can tell you some things.

The worst about all those brand-new counter tops and appliances (not to mention 
sanitaryware, brassware, lighting, electronic reticulation, and, most 
tragically, hand-made joinery) is that the first thing a buyer in that market 
does is rip out the whole lot and have others installed. There's a certain 
stratum in which virtually half of that stuff is installed only for the few 
months while the house is on the market. Then architects and interior designers 
with more concern for their own sophisticated image than for any notion of 
shelter or community living environment are appointed. I don't know what 
happens to the stuff, though. The appliances doubtless go straight back to the 
suppliers to be resold as new, but things like granite counter tops are cut to 
size and, even if portions can be re-used, there is still a lot of wastage.

Of course the granite is specced from a photograph in a catalogue. It is 
treated like a manufactured product of which the factory can always make more. 
Design professionals are shocked to realise that a specific piece of granite is 
the way it is because it was sitting in a specific place in the earth, and it 
isn't there any more. There's nothing wrong with using granite as long as one 
realises that every piece is unique and irreplaceable, and correspondingly 
design for durability.

One can do a philosophical study about the concept of type in current world 
culture. In a sense we have our own 'universals question' just like in the 
middle ages, and our own 'superrealists' or extreme Platonists who regard 
counter tops as mere half-real emanations of the fully real catalogue photo. 
(And the implications for type approval of motor vehicles is another whole can 
of worms.)

I have a constant battle with those who want not socio-functionally-disposed 
shelter but viewing platforms. It is a problem in a city that has views, 
especially where the best (i.e. monetarily most valuable) views are to the west 
and require buildings to be powerfully air-conditioned to keep them from 
turning into saunas from noon onwards even in mid-winter. When I bought my spot 
I was specifically not looking for a view of the sea or of the mountain: all I 
want a view of is the street outside. Sea and mountain views do the soul good, 
but why not from public places? The older cities that have views, e.g. Rome, 
have their best views from public places. There the views are not bought and 
sold. One need only step into the street - or climb a hill or whatever - to 
have them. A view of the street does more good. It affords informal 
surveillance for a very democratic way of deterring crime, and it adds interest 
to keep pedestrians stimulated and keep them from wishing they'd
 taken the car instead. 

On the other hand, the advantage of working for the rich is that the rich very 
often define the aspirations of everyone else, so giving the rich something 
that works socially will encourage those who don't give a damn to aspire to 
something that works socially. It is by no means unprecedented. The minor 
palazzi of Renaissance Italy are the obvious example of housing for rich people 
who walk on the street, but the pattern was well established even then. Up 
until WWII the large, freehold, single townhouse was quite a normal sort of 
luxury house.

But it is a problem, though by no means insoluble, to figure out a way to 
accommodate a greater, possibly exurban, food-growing population than cities 
have now without encouraging an invasion of the countryside by exurban 
commuters. I've always thought in terms of removing that tricky suburban-sprawl 
range of density from the density spectrum, so it jumps directly from small 
farms to Mediterranean-village densities. I think more cleverness might be 
called for. Any ideas?

-Dawie


- Original Message 
From: Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, 15 June, 2007 5:32:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains


Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit...
> remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can
> only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback.

Nope, I'm talking property flipping.

The sad but incontrovertible truth is, the larger
the house, the greater the increase in resale value.

Tracking housing costs since the building boom began
in the early 50s, houses of 10,000 sf, (yes, that's
correct, ten thousand square feet) have shown the
highest rate of return in investment over time.
5,000 less so, but still quite solid, 2,500 are
decent investments, and 1,200 or less are only valuable
for their lots. Fact. ugly but true.

Boutique appliances, countertops and trophy
stoves (that will never be used) are pretty
much a requirement for flipping the property.

This is why 

Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Keith Addison]

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/tomdispatch/2007/06/klare_pentag 
on_peak_oil.html?src=email&hed_20070615_ts1_thepentagonsoilsuckingways

The Pentagon v. Peak Oil
 
Commentary: The wars of the future may be fought just to run the 
machines that fight them.

By Michael Klare

June 14, 2007

Sixteen gallons of oil. That's how much the average American soldier 
in Iraq and Afghanistan consumes on a daily basis -- either directly, 
through the use of Humvees, tanks, trucks, and helicopters, or 
indirectly, by calling in air strikes. Multiply this figure by 
162,000 soldiers in Iraq, 24,000 in Afghanistan, and 30,000 in the 
surrounding region (including sailors aboard U.S. warships in the 
Persian Gulf) and you arrive at approximately 3.5 million gallons of 
oil: the daily petroleum tab for U.S. combat operations in the Middle 
East war zone.

Multiply that daily tab by 365 and you get 1.3 billion gallons: the 
estimated annual oil expenditure for U.S. combat operations in 
Southwest Asia. That's greater than the total annual oil usage of 
Bangladesh, population 150 million -- and yet it's a gross 
underestimate of the Pentagon's wartime consumption.

Such numbers cannot do full justice to the extraordinary gas-guzzling 
expense of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. After all, for every 
soldier stationed "in theater," there are two more in transit, in 
training, or otherwise in line for eventual deployment to the war 
zone -- soldiers who also consume enormous amounts of oil, even if 
less than their compatriots overseas. Moreover, to sustain an 
"expeditionary" army located halfway around the world, the Department 
of Defense must move millions of tons of arms, ammunition, food, 
fuel, and equipment every year by plane or ship, consuming additional 
tanker-loads of petroleum. Add this to the tally and the Pentagon's 
war-related oil budget jumps appreciably, though exactly how much we 
have no real way of knowing.

And foreign wars, sad to say, account for but a small fraction of the 
Pentagon's total petroleum consumption. Possessing the world's 
largest fleet of modern aircraft, helicopters, ships, tanks, armored 
vehicles, and support systems -- virtually all powered by oil -- the 
Department of Defense (DoD) is, in fact, the world's leading consumer 
of petroleum. It can be difficult to obtain precise details on the 
DoD's daily oil hit, but an April 2007 report by a defense 
contractor, LMI Government Consulting, suggests that the Pentagon 
might consume as much as 340,000 barrels (14 million gallons) every 
day. This is greater than the total national consumption of Sweden or 
Switzerland.

Not "Guns v. Butter," but "Guns v. Oil"

For anyone who drives a motor vehicle these days, this has ominous 
implications. With the price of gasoline now 75 cents to a dollar 
more than it was just six months ago, it's obvious that the Pentagon 
is facing a potentially serious budgetary crunch. Just like any 
ordinary American family, the DoD has to make some hard choices: It 
can use its normal amount of petroleum and pay more at the Pentagon's 
equivalent of the pump, while cutting back on other basic expenses; 
or it can cut back on its gas use in order to protect favored weapons 
systems under development. Of course, the DoD has a third option: It 
can go before Congress and plead for yet another supplemental budget 
hike, but this is sure to provoke renewed calls for a timetable for 
an American troop withdrawal from Iraq, and so is an unlikely 
prospect at this time.

Nor is this destined to prove a temporary issue. As recently as two 
years ago, the U.S. Department of Energy (DoE) was confidently 
predicting that the price of crude oil would hover in the $30 per 
barrel range for another quarter century or so, leading to gasoline 
prices of about $2 per gallon. But then came Hurricane Katrina, the 
crisis in Iran, the insurgency in southern Nigeria, and a host of 
other problems that tightened the oil market, prompting the DoE to 
raise its long-range price projection into the $50 per barrel range. 
This is the amount that figures in many current governmental 
budgetary forecasts -- including, presumably, those of the Department 
of Defense. But just how realistic is this? The price of a barrel of 
crude oil today is hovering in the $66 range. Many energy analysts 
now say that a price range of $70-$80 per barrel (or possibly even 
significantly more) is far more likely to be our fate for the 
foreseeable future.

A price rise of this magnitude, when translated into the cost of 
gasoline, aviation fuel, diesel fuel, home-heating oil, and 
petrochemicals will play havoc with the budgets of families, farms, 
businesses, and local governments. Sooner or later, it will force 
people to make profound changes in their daily lives -- as benign as 
purchasing a hybrid vehicle in place of an SUV or as painful as 
cutting back on home heating or health care simply to make an 
unavoidable drive to work. It will hav

Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Mike Weaver]

Actually 2 years - but the ashtray was full and power carpet wasn't working.


> LOL.  I bet your Escalade was 3 years old, and you didn't want to be
> seen in that old a car anyway.  But, I applaud getting the Lexus
> instead of just a newer Escalade.  :)
>
> On 6/15/07, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hey Yewdall,
>>
>> I DID MY PART when I traded in my Escalade for a Lexus SUV hybrid for
>> the
>> commute downtown.  I didn't HAVE to spend the extra money BUT I DID
>> because it was the right thing to do. Now get off my back and let me
>> enjoy
>> my lifestyle.
>>
>> > Uuugh.   Forgot about property flipping.  But now that you mention it,
>> > they are ripping down 2,000 sq foot $800k houses in Boulder, just for
>> > the lot.   Ack.  Our society is nuts.
>> >
>> > This is one reason my town hasn't made too much effort to clean up the
>> > piles of abandoned cars along the road and in everyone's yard it
>> > keeps the property values under control and the yuppies out.  :)
>> >
>> > Z
>> >
>> > On 6/15/07, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>> >> > Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit...
>> >> > remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can
>> >> > only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback.
>> >>
>> >> Nope, I'm talking property flipping.
>> >>
>> >> The sad but incontrovertible truth is, the larger
>> >> the house, the greater the increase in resale value.
>> >>
>> >> Tracking housing costs since the building boom began
>> >> in the early 50s, houses of 10,000 sf, (yes, that's
>> >> correct, ten thousand square feet) have shown the
>> >> highest rate of return in investment over time.
>> >> 5,000 less so, but still quite solid, 2,500 are
>> >> decent investments, and 1,200 or less are only valuable
>> >> for their lots. Fact. ugly but true.
>> >>
>> >> Boutique appliances, countertops and trophy
>> >> stoves (that will never be used) are pretty
>> >> much a requirement for flipping the property.
>> >>
>> >> This is why the cheaper interest rates are available for
>> >> these purchases, because that money yields the highest
>> >> return over similar type goods.
>> >>
>> >> This trend has been solid, with only a few hiccups for
>> >> nigh on 60 years, and there is nothing to indicate there
>> >> will a change anytime soon.
>> >>
>> >> Wonder why all this farm land in the Mid Atlantic
>> >> region of the US (some of the  best and most fertile
>> >> farm land in the world) is all being converted to tract
>> >> mansions? Because that is the sweet spot for investment.
>> >> 5k+ sq ft houses garner the lowest interest rates and
>> >> have the highest resale. No farm can compete with that,
>> >> in this 'free market' economy. (I'd like to actually
>> >> see a genuine free market economy someday, I keep
>> >> hearing about it).
>> >>
>> >> I work in Loundon County Va, USA. Loundon Co is *the*
>> >> textbook example of the worst land managment planning
>> >> there is. Even the the union of concerned scientists
>> >> used Loundon Co as their only negative example in the
>> >> publication The Consumer's Guide to Effective Environmental Choices.
>> >>
>> >> Be that as it may, it's nearly impossible to loose money
>> >> in this real estate market. Unless, you try to protect
>> >> and preserve what little arable land is left.
>> >>
>> >> Mike Weaver lives in this region, and the neighbors of
>> >> whom he speaks are everywhere. You'd have to see it.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> Biofuel mailing list
>> >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> >> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>> >>
>> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>> >>
>> >> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>> >> messages):
>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Zeke Yewdall
>> > Chief Electrical Engineer
>> > Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
>> > Cell: 720.352.2508
>> > Office: 303.459.0177
>> > FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > www.cosunflower.com
>> >
>> > CoSEIA Certified
>> > Certified BP Solar Installer
>> > National Association of Home Builders
>> >
>> > Quotable Quote
>> >
>> > "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
>> > in the dead of winter, war spreading,
>> > families dying, the world in danger,
>> > I walk the rocky hillside
>> > sowing clover."
>> >
>> > Wendell Berry
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Biofuel mailing list
>> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>> >
>> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>> >
>> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>> > messages):
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel

Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Zeke Yewdall]

Well, boulder has alot of good things -- great public transit, bike
trails, greenspace. And they do think about planning, which is more
than I can say for many places.  But because they are surrounded by
open space that can't be built on (a good thing), and they have also
historically made it hard to do high density living (even having a
legal rentable carriage house in the backyard is hard), there's not
enough housing, which drives the prices way up, and makes the traffic
horrible for a town its size because alot of people commute in  --
either because they can't afford anything in town, or because there is
nothing available.  The newest developments in town are doing high
density dwelling, finally -- mixed use with shops below, and
apartments above.  But it took a while.  There are a zillion prius's
(prii?) in boulder, but I'd also never seen that many $40,000 SUV's
till I moved to Boulder.

Z

On 6/15/07, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > Uuugh.   Forgot about property flipping.  But now that you mention it,
> > they are ripping down 2,000 sq foot $800k houses in Boulder, just for
> > the lot.   Ack.  Our society is nuts.
>
> Our society is suicidal. Nuts indeed!
>
> I though Boulder had more sense. I've read good stuff about
> the planning commissions out there, this is sad to hear.
>
> > This is one reason my town hasn't made too much effort to clean up the
> > piles of abandoned cars along the road and in everyone's yard it
> > keeps the property values under control and the yuppies out.  :)
>
> Indeed.
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>


-- 
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com

CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders

Quotable Quote

"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."

Wendell Berry

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Zeke Yewdall]

LOL.  I bet your Escalade was 3 years old, and you didn't want to be
seen in that old a car anyway.  But, I applaud getting the Lexus
instead of just a newer Escalade.  :)

On 6/15/07, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey Yewdall,
>
> I DID MY PART when I traded in my Escalade for a Lexus SUV hybrid for the
> commute downtown.  I didn't HAVE to spend the extra money BUT I DID
> because it was the right thing to do. Now get off my back and let me enjoy
> my lifestyle.
>
> > Uuugh.   Forgot about property flipping.  But now that you mention it,
> > they are ripping down 2,000 sq foot $800k houses in Boulder, just for
> > the lot.   Ack.  Our society is nuts.
> >
> > This is one reason my town hasn't made too much effort to clean up the
> > piles of abandoned cars along the road and in everyone's yard it
> > keeps the property values under control and the yuppies out.  :)
> >
> > Z
> >
> > On 6/15/07, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> >> > Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit...
> >> > remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can
> >> > only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback.
> >>
> >> Nope, I'm talking property flipping.
> >>
> >> The sad but incontrovertible truth is, the larger
> >> the house, the greater the increase in resale value.
> >>
> >> Tracking housing costs since the building boom began
> >> in the early 50s, houses of 10,000 sf, (yes, that's
> >> correct, ten thousand square feet) have shown the
> >> highest rate of return in investment over time.
> >> 5,000 less so, but still quite solid, 2,500 are
> >> decent investments, and 1,200 or less are only valuable
> >> for their lots. Fact. ugly but true.
> >>
> >> Boutique appliances, countertops and trophy
> >> stoves (that will never be used) are pretty
> >> much a requirement for flipping the property.
> >>
> >> This is why the cheaper interest rates are available for
> >> these purchases, because that money yields the highest
> >> return over similar type goods.
> >>
> >> This trend has been solid, with only a few hiccups for
> >> nigh on 60 years, and there is nothing to indicate there
> >> will a change anytime soon.
> >>
> >> Wonder why all this farm land in the Mid Atlantic
> >> region of the US (some of the  best and most fertile
> >> farm land in the world) is all being converted to tract
> >> mansions? Because that is the sweet spot for investment.
> >> 5k+ sq ft houses garner the lowest interest rates and
> >> have the highest resale. No farm can compete with that,
> >> in this 'free market' economy. (I'd like to actually
> >> see a genuine free market economy someday, I keep
> >> hearing about it).
> >>
> >> I work in Loundon County Va, USA. Loundon Co is *the*
> >> textbook example of the worst land managment planning
> >> there is. Even the the union of concerned scientists
> >> used Loundon Co as their only negative example in the
> >> publication The Consumer's Guide to Effective Environmental Choices.
> >>
> >> Be that as it may, it's nearly impossible to loose money
> >> in this real estate market. Unless, you try to protect
> >> and preserve what little arable land is left.
> >>
> >> Mike Weaver lives in this region, and the neighbors of
> >> whom he speaks are everywhere. You'd have to see it.
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Biofuel mailing list
> >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >>
> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >>
> >> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> >> messages):
> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Zeke Yewdall
> > Chief Electrical Engineer
> > Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
> > Cell: 720.352.2508
> > Office: 303.459.0177
> > FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > www.cosunflower.com
> >
> > CoSEIA Certified
> > Certified BP Solar Installer
> > National Association of Home Builders
> >
> > Quotable Quote
> >
> > "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
> > in the dead of winter, war spreading,
> > families dying, the world in danger,
> > I walk the rocky hillside
> > sowing clover."
> >
> > Wendell Berry
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> > messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>

Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Mike Weaver]

Hey Yewdall,

I DID MY PART when I traded in my Escalade for a Lexus SUV hybrid for the
commute downtown.  I didn't HAVE to spend the extra money BUT I DID
because it was the right thing to do. Now get off my back and let me enjoy
my lifestyle.

> Uuugh.   Forgot about property flipping.  But now that you mention it,
> they are ripping down 2,000 sq foot $800k houses in Boulder, just for
> the lot.   Ack.  Our society is nuts.
>
> This is one reason my town hasn't made too much effort to clean up the
> piles of abandoned cars along the road and in everyone's yard it
> keeps the property values under control and the yuppies out.  :)
>
> Z
>
> On 6/15/07, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>> > Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit...
>> > remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can
>> > only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback.
>>
>> Nope, I'm talking property flipping.
>>
>> The sad but incontrovertible truth is, the larger
>> the house, the greater the increase in resale value.
>>
>> Tracking housing costs since the building boom began
>> in the early 50s, houses of 10,000 sf, (yes, that's
>> correct, ten thousand square feet) have shown the
>> highest rate of return in investment over time.
>> 5,000 less so, but still quite solid, 2,500 are
>> decent investments, and 1,200 or less are only valuable
>> for their lots. Fact. ugly but true.
>>
>> Boutique appliances, countertops and trophy
>> stoves (that will never be used) are pretty
>> much a requirement for flipping the property.
>>
>> This is why the cheaper interest rates are available for
>> these purchases, because that money yields the highest
>> return over similar type goods.
>>
>> This trend has been solid, with only a few hiccups for
>> nigh on 60 years, and there is nothing to indicate there
>> will a change anytime soon.
>>
>> Wonder why all this farm land in the Mid Atlantic
>> region of the US (some of the  best and most fertile
>> farm land in the world) is all being converted to tract
>> mansions? Because that is the sweet spot for investment.
>> 5k+ sq ft houses garner the lowest interest rates and
>> have the highest resale. No farm can compete with that,
>> in this 'free market' economy. (I'd like to actually
>> see a genuine free market economy someday, I keep
>> hearing about it).
>>
>> I work in Loundon County Va, USA. Loundon Co is *the*
>> textbook example of the worst land managment planning
>> there is. Even the the union of concerned scientists
>> used Loundon Co as their only negative example in the
>> publication The Consumer's Guide to Effective Environmental Choices.
>>
>> Be that as it may, it's nearly impossible to loose money
>> in this real estate market. Unless, you try to protect
>> and preserve what little arable land is left.
>>
>> Mike Weaver lives in this region, and the neighbors of
>> whom he speaks are everywhere. You'd have to see it.
>>
>> --
>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zeke Yewdall
> Chief Electrical Engineer
> Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
> Cell: 720.352.2508
> Office: 303.459.0177
> FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.cosunflower.com
>
> CoSEIA Certified
> Certified BP Solar Installer
> National Association of Home Builders
>
> Quotable Quote
>
> "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
> in the dead of winter, war spreading,
> families dying, the world in danger,
> I walk the rocky hillside
> sowing clover."
>
> Wendell Berry
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Chip Mefford]

Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> Uuugh.   Forgot about property flipping.  But now that you mention it,
> they are ripping down 2,000 sq foot $800k houses in Boulder, just for
> the lot.   Ack.  Our society is nuts.

Our society is suicidal. Nuts indeed!

I though Boulder had more sense. I've read good stuff about
the planning commissions out there, this is sad to hear.

> This is one reason my town hasn't made too much effort to clean up the
> piles of abandoned cars along the road and in everyone's yard it
> keeps the property values under control and the yuppies out.  :)

Indeed.

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Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Zeke Yewdall]

Uuugh.   Forgot about property flipping.  But now that you mention it,
they are ripping down 2,000 sq foot $800k houses in Boulder, just for
the lot.   Ack.  Our society is nuts.

This is one reason my town hasn't made too much effort to clean up the
piles of abandoned cars along the road and in everyone's yard it
keeps the property values under control and the yuppies out.  :)

Z

On 6/15/07, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit...
> > remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can
> > only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback.
>
> Nope, I'm talking property flipping.
>
> The sad but incontrovertible truth is, the larger
> the house, the greater the increase in resale value.
>
> Tracking housing costs since the building boom began
> in the early 50s, houses of 10,000 sf, (yes, that's
> correct, ten thousand square feet) have shown the
> highest rate of return in investment over time.
> 5,000 less so, but still quite solid, 2,500 are
> decent investments, and 1,200 or less are only valuable
> for their lots. Fact. ugly but true.
>
> Boutique appliances, countertops and trophy
> stoves (that will never be used) are pretty
> much a requirement for flipping the property.
>
> This is why the cheaper interest rates are available for
> these purchases, because that money yields the highest
> return over similar type goods.
>
> This trend has been solid, with only a few hiccups for
> nigh on 60 years, and there is nothing to indicate there
> will a change anytime soon.
>
> Wonder why all this farm land in the Mid Atlantic
> region of the US (some of the  best and most fertile
> farm land in the world) is all being converted to tract
> mansions? Because that is the sweet spot for investment.
> 5k+ sq ft houses garner the lowest interest rates and
> have the highest resale. No farm can compete with that,
> in this 'free market' economy. (I'd like to actually
> see a genuine free market economy someday, I keep
> hearing about it).
>
> I work in Loundon County Va, USA. Loundon Co is *the*
> textbook example of the worst land managment planning
> there is. Even the the union of concerned scientists
> used Loundon Co as their only negative example in the
> publication The Consumer's Guide to Effective Environmental Choices.
>
> Be that as it may, it's nearly impossible to loose money
> in this real estate market. Unless, you try to protect
> and preserve what little arable land is left.
>
> Mike Weaver lives in this region, and the neighbors of
> whom he speaks are everywhere. You'd have to see it.
>
> --
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>


-- 
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com

CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders

Quotable Quote

"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."

Wendell Berry

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Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Chip Mefford]

Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit...
> remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can
> only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback.

Nope, I'm talking property flipping.

The sad but incontrovertible truth is, the larger
the house, the greater the increase in resale value.

Tracking housing costs since the building boom began
in the early 50s, houses of 10,000 sf, (yes, that's
correct, ten thousand square feet) have shown the
highest rate of return in investment over time.
5,000 less so, but still quite solid, 2,500 are
decent investments, and 1,200 or less are only valuable
for their lots. Fact. ugly but true.

Boutique appliances, countertops and trophy
stoves (that will never be used) are pretty
much a requirement for flipping the property.

This is why the cheaper interest rates are available for
these purchases, because that money yields the highest
return over similar type goods.

This trend has been solid, with only a few hiccups for
nigh on 60 years, and there is nothing to indicate there
will a change anytime soon.

Wonder why all this farm land in the Mid Atlantic
region of the US (some of the  best and most fertile
farm land in the world) is all being converted to tract
mansions? Because that is the sweet spot for investment.
5k+ sq ft houses garner the lowest interest rates and
have the highest resale. No farm can compete with that,
in this 'free market' economy. (I'd like to actually
see a genuine free market economy someday, I keep
hearing about it).

I work in Loundon County Va, USA. Loundon Co is *the*
textbook example of the worst land managment planning
there is. Even the the union of concerned scientists
used Loundon Co as their only negative example in the
publication The Consumer's Guide to Effective Environmental Choices.

Be that as it may, it's nearly impossible to loose money
in this real estate market. Unless, you try to protect
and preserve what little arable land is left.

Mike Weaver lives in this region, and the neighbors of
whom he speaks are everywhere. You'd have to see it.

-- 

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Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Zeke Yewdall]

Ah, but I think you may be including a non-monetary benefit...
remember, for renewable energy or energy efficiency stuff, you can
only include the strict monetary benefits when calculating payback.

On 6/15/07, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > Wonder what the payback time of those granite counters and appliances is?
>
> Almost immediate
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>


-- 
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com

CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders

Quotable Quote

"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."

Wendell Berry

___
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Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Chip Mefford]

Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> Wonder what the payback time of those granite counters and appliances is?

Almost immediate

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Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Mike Weaver]

Immediate gratification.  That's a large part of why we are in this mess.



> Wonder what the payback time of those granite counters and appliances is?
>
>
>
> On 6/15/07, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I wonder if you could look at the carbon output and extrapolate
>> backwards
>> to get a rough idea what the cost is.
>>
>> Interesting side note:  I was at the bus stop in my neighborhood, which
>> is
>> for lack of a better word, one of the more exclusive suburbs in the
>> country, mosty due to its proximity to DC.  Many people are tearing down
>> their small houses and building huge ones, or substantially remodeling
>> what they have.  I fell into conversation with one neighbor doing the
>> latter.  As the conversation started on the subject of the cost of gas
>> and
>> energy in general, I asked if they'd thought about solar for power, heat
>> and hot water, a multi-fuel furnace - such as a Tarm and extra
>> insulation,
>> etc.  They'd thought about it, but realized that the $50,000 or so for
>> the
>> above was about the cost of granite counters and Sub Zero appliances in
>> the kitchen, and after all, this was their dream house - wasn't it?
>>
>> "High efficiency" gas heating and cooling along with better windows are
>> as
>> far as most people here will go.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18995.html
>> > [biofuel] The Railroading of Amtrak
>> >
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg12055.html
>> > [biofuel] Subsidizing Trains, Planes And Automobiles
>> >
>> > (The whole discussion thread is linked at the end of the page.)
>> >
>> > Trains are a great way to travel, even better than ships. And the
>> > best way to commute.
>> >
>> >>Like Keith stated so succinctly in a prior post,
>> >>the USA isn't addicted to oil, it is addicted to
>> >>waste.
>> >
>> > I didn't check it and I didn't download it either, but somebody was
>> > saying that people bandied the figure around a lot these days that
>> > the US had 5% of the world's population and uses 25% of the energy,
>> > but he'd seen data years ago that the US used 45% of the world's
>> > energy and he didn't think it had shrunk.
>> >
>> > I got to wondering what the figure might be if you included the full
>> > energy costs of the war in Iraq, for instance, or the full energy
>> > costs of the Empire's global military establishment, as someone like
>> > Chalmers Johnson might put it, along with all the support stuff that
>> > goes with it. For starters. What's the global energy bill of the US?
>> > (Or am I looking at it all wrong?)
>> >
>> > I don't suppose we'd ever find out. I'm not very surprised when
>> > energy data turns out to be mostly smoke and mirrors. That's been the
>> > case with oil reserves for a long time, especially with what Matt
>> > Simmons has had to say about it more recently. Nobody really knows,
>> > but that doesn't stop them lying about it.
>> >
>> > Whatever, a lot of list members have talked about the waste of energy
>> > in the US. Hakan, for instance, who'd know, said the US was IIRC
>> > about 30 years behind Sweden with energy efficient buildings. The
>> > section on world energy use at our website (which might be where the
>> > 25% came from) says "The average American uses twice as much energy
>> > as the average European or Japanese and 155 times as much as the
>> > average Nepalese. In terms of production, Americans produce more per
>> > head than Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use
>> > twice as much energy as the Japanese to do it."
>> > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_404.html#energyuse
>> >
>> > I wouldn't say the Japanese are exactly paragons of energy
>> > efficiency. In some ways yes, with solar and K-trucks, for instance,
>> > but they've got a long way to go. There are way too many cars here,
>> > K-trucks notwithstanding, recycling's good in some sectors, but not
>> > much reduce, very little re-use, too much needless consumption - a
>> > popular book here tells you all sorts of ways to throw things away
>> > more creatively (which doesn't necessarily mean being more
>> > eco-friendly about it).
>> >
>> > Still, millions of people ride their bicycles to the rail station
>> > every day to go to work. Japanese trains are great!
>> >
>> >  From a previous message:
>> >
>> >>[Japanese] Foreign Minister Taro Aso pointed out Friday that Japan's
>> >>oil efficiency is eight times better than that of China, quoting
>> >>data from International Energy Agency, an energy policy adviser to
>> >>26 industrialized countries.
>> >>
>> >>"I have told (Chinese Foreign Minister) Li Zhaoxing that China would
>> >>be able to curb its oil consumption to one-eighth (of the current
>> >>level) if (it) becomes like us," Aso said when asked to comment on
>> >>China's energy problems.
>> >
>> > So China's more wasteful than the US?
>> >
>> > I wonder if China will take that to mean that they can cut
>> > seven-eighths of th

Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Zeke Yewdall]

Wonder what the payback time of those granite counters and appliances is?



On 6/15/07, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wonder if you could look at the carbon output and extrapolate backwards
> to get a rough idea what the cost is.
>
> Interesting side note:  I was at the bus stop in my neighborhood, which is
> for lack of a better word, one of the more exclusive suburbs in the
> country, mosty due to its proximity to DC.  Many people are tearing down
> their small houses and building huge ones, or substantially remodeling
> what they have.  I fell into conversation with one neighbor doing the
> latter.  As the conversation started on the subject of the cost of gas and
> energy in general, I asked if they'd thought about solar for power, heat
> and hot water, a multi-fuel furnace - such as a Tarm and extra insulation,
> etc.  They'd thought about it, but realized that the $50,000 or so for the
> above was about the cost of granite counters and Sub Zero appliances in
> the kitchen, and after all, this was their dream house - wasn't it?
>
> "High efficiency" gas heating and cooling along with better windows are as
> far as most people here will go.
>
>
>
>
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18995.html
> > [biofuel] The Railroading of Amtrak
> >
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg12055.html
> > [biofuel] Subsidizing Trains, Planes And Automobiles
> >
> > (The whole discussion thread is linked at the end of the page.)
> >
> > Trains are a great way to travel, even better than ships. And the
> > best way to commute.
> >
> >>Like Keith stated so succinctly in a prior post,
> >>the USA isn't addicted to oil, it is addicted to
> >>waste.
> >
> > I didn't check it and I didn't download it either, but somebody was
> > saying that people bandied the figure around a lot these days that
> > the US had 5% of the world's population and uses 25% of the energy,
> > but he'd seen data years ago that the US used 45% of the world's
> > energy and he didn't think it had shrunk.
> >
> > I got to wondering what the figure might be if you included the full
> > energy costs of the war in Iraq, for instance, or the full energy
> > costs of the Empire's global military establishment, as someone like
> > Chalmers Johnson might put it, along with all the support stuff that
> > goes with it. For starters. What's the global energy bill of the US?
> > (Or am I looking at it all wrong?)
> >
> > I don't suppose we'd ever find out. I'm not very surprised when
> > energy data turns out to be mostly smoke and mirrors. That's been the
> > case with oil reserves for a long time, especially with what Matt
> > Simmons has had to say about it more recently. Nobody really knows,
> > but that doesn't stop them lying about it.
> >
> > Whatever, a lot of list members have talked about the waste of energy
> > in the US. Hakan, for instance, who'd know, said the US was IIRC
> > about 30 years behind Sweden with energy efficient buildings. The
> > section on world energy use at our website (which might be where the
> > 25% came from) says "The average American uses twice as much energy
> > as the average European or Japanese and 155 times as much as the
> > average Nepalese. In terms of production, Americans produce more per
> > head than Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use
> > twice as much energy as the Japanese to do it."
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_404.html#energyuse
> >
> > I wouldn't say the Japanese are exactly paragons of energy
> > efficiency. In some ways yes, with solar and K-trucks, for instance,
> > but they've got a long way to go. There are way too many cars here,
> > K-trucks notwithstanding, recycling's good in some sectors, but not
> > much reduce, very little re-use, too much needless consumption - a
> > popular book here tells you all sorts of ways to throw things away
> > more creatively (which doesn't necessarily mean being more
> > eco-friendly about it).
> >
> > Still, millions of people ride their bicycles to the rail station
> > every day to go to work. Japanese trains are great!
> >
> >  From a previous message:
> >
> >>[Japanese] Foreign Minister Taro Aso pointed out Friday that Japan's
> >>oil efficiency is eight times better than that of China, quoting
> >>data from International Energy Agency, an energy policy adviser to
> >>26 industrialized countries.
> >>
> >>"I have told (Chinese Foreign Minister) Li Zhaoxing that China would
> >>be able to curb its oil consumption to one-eighth (of the current
> >>level) if (it) becomes like us," Aso said when asked to comment on
> >>China's energy problems.
> >
> > So China's more wasteful than the US?
> >
> > I wonder if China will take that to mean that they can cut
> > seven-eighths of their oil consumption if they do it like Japan or
> > that they'll be able to produce eight times as much with the amount
> > of oil they're using now.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >>Dawie C

Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Mike Weaver]

I wonder if you could look at the carbon output and extrapolate backwards
to get a rough idea what the cost is.

Interesting side note:  I was at the bus stop in my neighborhood, which is
for lack of a better word, one of the more exclusive suburbs in the
country, mosty due to its proximity to DC.  Many people are tearing down
their small houses and building huge ones, or substantially remodeling
what they have.  I fell into conversation with one neighbor doing the
latter.  As the conversation started on the subject of the cost of gas and
energy in general, I asked if they'd thought about solar for power, heat
and hot water, a multi-fuel furnace - such as a Tarm and extra insulation,
etc.  They'd thought about it, but realized that the $50,000 or so for the
above was about the cost of granite counters and Sub Zero appliances in
the kitchen, and after all, this was their dream house - wasn't it?

"High efficiency" gas heating and cooling along with better windows are as
far as most people here will go.




> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18995.html
> [biofuel] The Railroading of Amtrak
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg12055.html
> [biofuel] Subsidizing Trains, Planes And Automobiles
>
> (The whole discussion thread is linked at the end of the page.)
>
> Trains are a great way to travel, even better than ships. And the
> best way to commute.
>
>>Like Keith stated so succinctly in a prior post,
>>the USA isn't addicted to oil, it is addicted to
>>waste.
>
> I didn't check it and I didn't download it either, but somebody was
> saying that people bandied the figure around a lot these days that
> the US had 5% of the world's population and uses 25% of the energy,
> but he'd seen data years ago that the US used 45% of the world's
> energy and he didn't think it had shrunk.
>
> I got to wondering what the figure might be if you included the full
> energy costs of the war in Iraq, for instance, or the full energy
> costs of the Empire's global military establishment, as someone like
> Chalmers Johnson might put it, along with all the support stuff that
> goes with it. For starters. What's the global energy bill of the US?
> (Or am I looking at it all wrong?)
>
> I don't suppose we'd ever find out. I'm not very surprised when
> energy data turns out to be mostly smoke and mirrors. That's been the
> case with oil reserves for a long time, especially with what Matt
> Simmons has had to say about it more recently. Nobody really knows,
> but that doesn't stop them lying about it.
>
> Whatever, a lot of list members have talked about the waste of energy
> in the US. Hakan, for instance, who'd know, said the US was IIRC
> about 30 years behind Sweden with energy efficient buildings. The
> section on world energy use at our website (which might be where the
> 25% came from) says "The average American uses twice as much energy
> as the average European or Japanese and 155 times as much as the
> average Nepalese. In terms of production, Americans produce more per
> head than Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use
> twice as much energy as the Japanese to do it."
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_404.html#energyuse
>
> I wouldn't say the Japanese are exactly paragons of energy
> efficiency. In some ways yes, with solar and K-trucks, for instance,
> but they've got a long way to go. There are way too many cars here,
> K-trucks notwithstanding, recycling's good in some sectors, but not
> much reduce, very little re-use, too much needless consumption - a
> popular book here tells you all sorts of ways to throw things away
> more creatively (which doesn't necessarily mean being more
> eco-friendly about it).
>
> Still, millions of people ride their bicycles to the rail station
> every day to go to work. Japanese trains are great!
>
>  From a previous message:
>
>>[Japanese] Foreign Minister Taro Aso pointed out Friday that Japan's
>>oil efficiency is eight times better than that of China, quoting
>>data from International Energy Agency, an energy policy adviser to
>>26 industrialized countries.
>>
>>"I have told (Chinese Foreign Minister) Li Zhaoxing that China would
>>be able to curb its oil consumption to one-eighth (of the current
>>level) if (it) becomes like us," Aso said when asked to comment on
>>China's energy problems.
>
> So China's more wasteful than the US?
>
> I wonder if China will take that to mean that they can cut
> seven-eighths of their oil consumption if they do it like Japan or
> that they'll be able to produce eight times as much with the amount
> of oil they're using now.
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
>>Dawie Coetzee wrote:
>> > This from another group:
>> >
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_cities/message/10256
>> >
>> >> Fuel-sipping trains
>> >> June 11, 2007
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> With energy prices high and likely to go higher in the years ahead,
>> >> it would make sense for the nation to embrace a transportation
>> >> pol

Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Keith Addison]

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18995.html
[biofuel] The Railroading of Amtrak

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg12055.html
[biofuel] Subsidizing Trains, Planes And Automobiles

(The whole discussion thread is linked at the end of the page.)

Trains are a great way to travel, even better than ships. And the 
best way to commute.

>Like Keith stated so succinctly in a prior post,
>the USA isn't addicted to oil, it is addicted to
>waste.

I didn't check it and I didn't download it either, but somebody was 
saying that people bandied the figure around a lot these days that 
the US had 5% of the world's population and uses 25% of the energy, 
but he'd seen data years ago that the US used 45% of the world's 
energy and he didn't think it had shrunk.

I got to wondering what the figure might be if you included the full 
energy costs of the war in Iraq, for instance, or the full energy 
costs of the Empire's global military establishment, as someone like 
Chalmers Johnson might put it, along with all the support stuff that 
goes with it. For starters. What's the global energy bill of the US? 
(Or am I looking at it all wrong?)

I don't suppose we'd ever find out. I'm not very surprised when 
energy data turns out to be mostly smoke and mirrors. That's been the 
case with oil reserves for a long time, especially with what Matt 
Simmons has had to say about it more recently. Nobody really knows, 
but that doesn't stop them lying about it.

Whatever, a lot of list members have talked about the waste of energy 
in the US. Hakan, for instance, who'd know, said the US was IIRC 
about 30 years behind Sweden with energy efficient buildings. The 
section on world energy use at our website (which might be where the 
25% came from) says "The average American uses twice as much energy 
as the average European or Japanese and 155 times as much as the 
average Nepalese. In terms of production, Americans produce more per 
head than Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use 
twice as much energy as the Japanese to do it."
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_404.html#energyuse

I wouldn't say the Japanese are exactly paragons of energy 
efficiency. In some ways yes, with solar and K-trucks, for instance, 
but they've got a long way to go. There are way too many cars here, 
K-trucks notwithstanding, recycling's good in some sectors, but not 
much reduce, very little re-use, too much needless consumption - a 
popular book here tells you all sorts of ways to throw things away 
more creatively (which doesn't necessarily mean being more 
eco-friendly about it).

Still, millions of people ride their bicycles to the rail station 
every day to go to work. Japanese trains are great!

 From a previous message:

>[Japanese] Foreign Minister Taro Aso pointed out Friday that Japan's 
>oil efficiency is eight times better than that of China, quoting 
>data from International Energy Agency, an energy policy adviser to 
>26 industrialized countries.
>
>"I have told (Chinese Foreign Minister) Li Zhaoxing that China would 
>be able to curb its oil consumption to one-eighth (of the current 
>level) if (it) becomes like us," Aso said when asked to comment on 
>China's energy problems.

So China's more wasteful than the US?

I wonder if China will take that to mean that they can cut 
seven-eighths of their oil consumption if they do it like Japan or 
that they'll be able to produce eight times as much with the amount 
of oil they're using now.

Best

Keith


>Dawie Coetzee wrote:
> > This from another group:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_cities/message/10256
> >
> >> Fuel-sipping trains
> >> June 11, 2007
> >>
> >>
> >> With energy prices high and likely to go higher in the years ahead,
> >> it would make sense for the nation to embrace a transportation
> >> policy that puts a premium on energy efficiency. Transportation,
> >> along with electrical power generation, is the country's biggest
> >> consumer of fossil and renewable fuels. So what is the most fuel-
> >> efficient form of transportation available in the U.S. today?
> >> Believe it or not, it's Amtrak.
>
>This is kinda a no brainer.
>
>How long ago was it that Bush1 made up the
>transportation policy for 'the next 20 years'
>for the US?
>
>All I remember, is that I recently out of the service
>having spent the previous 18 months in (then) western
>Europe, and was already a big fan of bicycling.
>
>I was really hoping to hear about major investment
>in light rail, revamping heavy (freight) rail lines
>and of course the idea that is so good it's almost
>stupid, radical investment in bike-friendly transportation
>infrastructure.
>
>Having seen this all over Europe, I was convinced
>that my home country, the USA would embrace this
>approach, it just makes so much sense.
>What a naive fool. Even then, in my 30s, I had
>yet to grasp how idiotic my culture can be.
>
>Bush1 gave it all away, gave a great speech
>a

Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Paul S Cantrell]

Not to mention that train engines burn diesel/biodiesel to make electricity
to run the trains, so they are already hybrids.  They could add an
ultra-capacitor 'caboose' to the train to capture some of the immense
braking energy.

It also seems to me that we could put Solar PV panels on the tops of
passenger train cars to generate the electricity used on them, further
reducing fuel used per passenger mile.

Of course, these measures take capital, and Booshy won't even fund Amtrak
properly.

On 6/13/07, Dawie Coetzee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


This from another group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_cities/message/10256

> Fuel-sipping trains
> June 11, 2007
>
>
> With energy prices high and likely to go higher in the years ahead,
> it would make sense for the nation to embrace a transportation
> policy that puts a premium on energy efficiency. Transportation,
> along with electrical power generation, is the country's biggest
> consumer of fossil and renewable fuels. So what is the most fuel-
> efficient form of transportation available in the U.S. today?
> Believe it or not, it's Amtrak. According to a recent study
> published by the U.S. Department of Energy's Oak Ridge National
> Laboratory, Amtrak uses less energy per passenger mile than cars,
> airlines or even subways and commuter rail systems. In fact, the
> relative disadvantage of commercial airlines and cars is
> particularly pronounced - both use more than one-fifth more energy
> per passenger mile than Amtrak's trains.
> The study doesn't take into account rail's many additional
> environmental benefits. Passenger trains tend to support
> pedestrian- and transit-oriented development, for instance, while
> emissions from aircraft have a far worse impact on global warming
> because of the high altitude.
> Yet Amtrak continues to be treated as little more than an
> afterthought in national energy and environmental policy
> discussions. President Bush has proposed spending just $800 million
> on Amtrak in fiscal 2008. That's a half-billion dollars less than
> was spent the year before.
> The general public has been far more supportive. Ridership has
> increased each of the last four years, and Amtrak officials note
> that it's up again this year. The biggest gains were posted on
> relatively short routes of 500 miles or less outside the Northeast,
> where it's already popular.
> In general, Amtrak recovers about 67 percent of its operating costs
> through sales, but the rest requires a taxpayer subsidy - much in
> the same way that highways, bridges, airports, transit buses and
> other forms of transportation infrastructure are government
> subsidized.
> What passenger rail really needs is billions of dollars in
> additional capital investment - to replace aging equipment and
> upgrade track in order to provide faster, more efficient service
> that would allow Amtrak to better compete with no-frills airlines.
> From China to Germany, other countries are making that kind of
> investment in the future while the U.S. sits on the sidelines. High-
> speed rail has enormous potential, but it first requires government
> support.
>
>
>
>
> Copyright (c) 2007, The Baltimore Sun | Get Sun home delivery

-D

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Re: [Biofuel] Fuel-sipping trains

[Chip Mefford]

Dawie Coetzee wrote:
> This from another group:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_cities/message/10256
> 
>> Fuel-sipping trains
>> June 11, 2007
>>
>>
>> With energy prices high and likely to go higher in the years ahead,
>> it would make sense for the nation to embrace a transportation
>> policy that puts a premium on energy efficiency. Transportation,
>> along with electrical power generation, is the country's biggest
>> consumer of fossil and renewable fuels. So what is the most fuel-
>> efficient form of transportation available in the U.S. today?
>> Believe it or not, it's Amtrak.

This is kinda a no brainer.

How long ago was it that Bush1 made up the
transportation policy for 'the next 20 years'
for the US?

All I remember, is that I recently out of the service
having spent the previous 18 months in (then) western
Europe, and was already a big fan of bicycling.

I was really hoping to hear about major investment
in light rail, revamping heavy (freight) rail lines
and of course the idea that is so good it's almost
stupid, radical investment in bike-friendly transportation
infrastructure.

Having seen this all over Europe, I was convinced
that my home country, the USA would embrace this
approach, it just makes so much sense.
What a naive fool. Even then, in my 30s, I had
yet to grasp how idiotic my culture can be.

Bush1 gave it all away, gave a great speech
about revamping our then crumbling interstate
highway infrastructure, to the joyful salutations
of the automobile, trucking, and local porkbarrel
contractors and industries. How insane! I thought,
can't anyone see how much economic growth could
be garnered by targeting these alternative approaches?

Uhh, probably, probably all too well. As I listened
to CSPAN and all the elected folks railing about
the 'taxpayer burden' of continued subsidy of AMTRAK.
As if all the hundreds of billions spent on backing
the airlines and interstate systems, as well as the automotive
industries was nothing. Even at that point I was
pretty ignorant of the staggeringly huge subsidies
expended on the fuel industry in the USA.

How this is actually seen.

NPR recently did the inquiry I was hoping someone would
do. It was so close to what I was hoping for I was
a bit taken aback when I heard about it.
Basically, the transportation cost of taking
a family of 4 one-way from the Washington DC region to
Boston Mass, via AMTRAK vs. driving.

Make no mistake, not matter how hard you hit
up the cost of operating a SUV, there isn't any
comparison. Barreling (heh) up I95 in an SUV
full of people, FROM THE CONSUMER POINT OF VIEW
is MUCH less expensive than taking the same
group of people on AMTRAK.

Until this changes, meaning, in my mind, that
until AMTRAK and other passenger rail systems start
receiving the same kind of consideration that
the car culture receives this will remain
so.

I could go on and on about this. Perhaps its the
romance of rail travel (I quickly admit how much
I enjoy travelling by rail, having been fortunate
enough to have done so numerous times since I was
a child) perhaps all these other things, but as
has been hammered on by this list so many times
in the past, Until the USA just simply gets over
this childish/infantile NEED for immediate gratification
this will be the continued suicidal direction. \

Maybe in the 80s, when telecommuting was just starting
to begin to make sense, but certainly now, where for
so much of the commuting traffic here in the USA, it's
a genuine alternative, held up only by corporate culture,
esp in the east (where the laws are made) and so on,
blah blah blah.

I do love trains, even in view of their shameful
past. The infrastructure is there. Not making
full use of it, esp in view of what is currently known
is criminal.

Like Keith stated so succinctly in a prior post,
the USA isn't addicted to oil, it is addicted to
waste.





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