Re: [Biofuel] interesting read: online electrical textbooks
This electrical textbook is very informative for novice like me. I got some confusion over some terminology. I am involved with waste management and they are going to produce 10 megabite of electricityfrom methane gas. Funney thing is that no body I talk to at plant know,weather it will produce 10 megawatt (10,000 KW) every hour or in 24 hours period. Can some body clarify it ? To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:06:07 -0600 Subject: [Biofuel] interesting read: online electrical textbooks i found this while looking for some electric stator design ideas, and i figured it could be interesting, if not helpful. http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/ it is a very simple, and IMO well laid out set of electricity/electronics lessons for the beginner. The information provided is great for both students and hobbyists who are looking to expand their knowledge in this field (clipped from the front page). jason _ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHMloc=us ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/2007/40c9bb9f/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] interesting read: online electrical textbooks
The proper usage is hourly production. megawatt hour Kirk NV Dhana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This electrical textbook is very informative for novice like me. I got some confusion over some terminology. I am involved with waste management and they are going to produce 10 megabite of electricityfrom methane gas. Funney thing is that no body I talk to at plant know,weather it will produce 10 megawatt (10,000 KW) every hour or in 24 hours period. Can some body clarify it ? To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:06:07 -0600 Subject: [Biofuel] interesting read: online electrical textbooks i found this while looking for some electric stator design ideas, and i figured it could be interesting, if not helpful. http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/ it is a very simple, and IMO well laid out set of electricity/electronics lessons for the beginner. The information provided is great for both students and hobbyists who are looking to expand their knowledge in this field (clipped from the front page). jason _ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHMloc=us ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/2007/40c9bb9f/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/2007/8cbd606f/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] interesting read: online electrical textbooks
A megawatt is a measure of power as opposed to a measure of energy such as Megawatt-hour. Energy is the production or integration of power over time. The amount of energy your plant will produce in a 24 hour day will be 24 hours * 10 Mw == 240 Mw-Hrs John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:59 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] interesting read: online electrical textbooks The proper usage is hourly production. megawatt hour Kirk NV Dhana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This electrical textbook is very informative for novice like me. I got some confusion over some terminology. I am involved with waste management and they are going to produce 10 megabite of electricityfrom methane gas. Funney thing is that no body I talk to at plant know,weather it will produce 10 megawatt (10,000 KW) every hour or in 24 hours period. Can some body clarify it ? To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:06:07 -0600 Subject: [Biofuel] interesting read: online electrical textbooks i found this while looking for some electric stator design ideas, and i figured it could be interesting, if not helpful. http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/ it is a very simple, and IMO well laid out set of electricity/electronics lessons for the beginner. The information provided is great for both students and hobbyists who are looking to expand their knowledge in this field (clipped from the front page). jason _ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHMloc=us ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWL tagline -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/2007/40c9bb9f/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/2007/8cbd606f/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Interesting Read
Keith Addison wrote: Hello Chip Keith Addison wrote: Hello Chip snip Actually it's the industrialised countries' addiction to wasting energy that's doing that. Wholly agree, no arguments here. Merely replacing fossil fuels is not the answer. A rational and sustainable energy future requires great reductions in energy use (currently mostly waste), great improvements in energy use efficiency, and, most important, decentralisation of supply to the small-scale or farm-scale local-economy level, along with the use of all ready-to-use renewable energy technologies in combination as the local circumstances require. To say the world's 800 million cars will compete for food resources with the 1.2 billion people living on less than $1 a day shows a lack of understanding of how the market works. See eg.: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html Biofuels - Food or Fuel? No core argument, however, I think that fuel/food competition is already happening. But I think it's no different than the usual food competition, with people being marginalised from their own resources to make way for industrialised production of food and ag commodities for trade in the global market. Well stated. agreed. So for instance, with the so-called Green Revolution, countries that used to be self-sufficient in rice successfully became rice exporters but with large and growing numbers of poor and hungry people at home, along with severe environmental problems (which primarily impact on the poor). Wealth extraction, poverty creation, same old story. What difference does it make if these extracted commodities include biofuels feedstock? It just adds fuel miles to food miles, but it's the same issue. Like all industrialised agriculture production it's heavily dependent on fossil-fuel inputs - dinosaur bone oil, LOL! What sort of sense does it make to produce allegedly sustainable and renewable biofuels crops if it depends on exactly the resource it's supposed to be replacing? There's nothing sustainable about industrialised agriculture, it has no future. Currently, dinosaur bone oil costs are mostly hidden from view, and bio-oil is under a microscope for cost models. all things being equal, it's my most ignorant guess that once you strip away all the huge subsidies that dinosaur bone oil receives, add in the health-care costs, you start seeing gas at the pump in the 10 to 12 dollar a gallon range, That seems to be quite a good guess, but it's probably more than that, see below. and bio-oil is probably something like one third to half that. With this in mind, and some of the forest-to-farm land conversion that is happening around the world to address local fuel needs, Local fuel needs? and the picture is a bit more cloudy. Adding biofuel to the picture doesn't change it much. On the other hand, there's a massive worldwide swing towards sustainable farming. Eg: Thank goodness! I'm snipping the rest, because I have no debate points, and I completely concurr, and I really appreciate you taking the time to write it all up. Anyone who's following this thread looking for controversy, should go back and read your post in detail :) Thanks again for everything, -keep up the good work! ---chipper ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Interesting Read
Hi Mike So...did Monbiot get his research for Feeding Cars, not People from Lester Brown or, was it the other way around. It's the same short-sighted promoter of fear that conveniently holds back information on more comprehensive incorporation of biofuel into a diverse, long term energy strategy. Claims that put fear into those who haven't done their own research will be offset by a growing public consensus on the Internet AND a reexamination of suppressed technologies from the 1940's through the 70's - technologies with associated patents which have become public domain. All we have to do now is keep large telecom corporations from merging and influencing legislation that controls Internet traffic. Mike I agree. And to use what we're protecting to the best effect. Not much cause for concern in either case, I reckon. Re protecting it, have faith in your friendly virtual neighbourhood hacker community, as in the recent thread re The End of the Internet: A good way of looking at the post-modern hacker community is as the IT dept of the second superpower. May the force be with them. :-) And It takes about 6 months for a pharmacy lab to learn to copy someone else's drug. It took 72 hours to break the DRM on iTunes. It took 24 hours to break the ultimately encrypted dvd encryption. It took 12 hours to break Arista's new CD protection scheme. It took 6 hours to break sony's illegal DRM. Fear not fellow subverts, the underground will keep us safe. Sort of. I'm not sure that we really have to do anything about the anti-biofuels noise being generated by George Monbiot, Lester Brown, Mae Won-Ho at ISIS, nor indeed Pimentel or Tadzek. They're not going to lead anybody anywhere other than astray, and indeed it doesn't go anywhere, apart from the odd 15,000 square miles of desert covered in algae farms, LOL! Never mind the desert, who cares about deserts. (I do!) More serious people should be able to figure it out for themselves, there is better information to be found if you look. Has anybody ever actually seen any real, genuine, non-mythical biodiesel made from algae? I mean that actually exists in the physical universe rather than just in the wish-fulfilment fantasies of guzzle-addicts? There's the stuff cleaning up the powerplant smokestacks in that one project but that's a bit different, no? Best Keith Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Chip Probably, a lot of you are already familiar with the work of Lester Brown. I'm not however, and was recently introduced to it by a friend. I've read a few chapters online, and have ordered to book. From Chapter 1; In this new world, the price of oil begins to set the price of food, not so much because of rising fuel costs for farmers and food processors but more because almost everything we eat can be converted into fuel for cars. In this new world of high oil prices, supermarkets and service stations will compete in commodity markets for basic food commodities such as wheat, corn, soybeans, and sugarcane. Wheat going into the market can be converted into bread for supermarkets or ethanol for service stations. Soybean oil can go onto supermarket shelves or it can go to service stations to be used as diesel fuel. In effect, owners of the worldís 800 million cars will be competing for food resources with the 1.2 billion people living on less than $1 a day. 9 Faced with a seemingly insatiable demand for automotive fuel, farmers will want to clear more and more of the remaining tropical forests to produce sugarcane, oil palms, and other high-yielding fuel crops. Already, billions of dollars of private capital are moving into this effort. In effect, the rising price of oil is generating a massive new threat to the earthís biological diversity. Actually it's the industrialised countries' addiction to wasting energy that's doing that. Merely replacing fossil fuels is not the answer. A rational and sustainable energy future requires great reductions in energy use (currently mostly waste), great improvements in energy use efficiency, and, most important, decentralisation of supply to the small-scale or farm-scale local-economy level, along with the use of all ready-to-use renewable energy technologies in combination as the local circumstances require. To say the world's 800 million cars will compete for food resources with the 1.2 billion people living on less than $1 a day shows a lack of understanding of how the market works. See eg.: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html Biofuels - Food or Fuel? And: Less than three-tenths of one percent of total US corn exports went to the 25 poorest countries in 1996. More US corn goes to make alcoholic beverages in the US than is exported to feed the hungry in the world's 25 most undernourished countries combined. http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? More here which should be of interest: How much
Re: [Biofuel] Interesting Read
Hello Chip Keith Addison wrote: Hello Chip Probably, a lot of you are already familiar with the work of Lester Brown. I'm not however, and was recently introduced to it by a friend. I've read a few chapters online, and have ordered to book. SNIP Actually it's the industrialised countries' addiction to wasting energy that's doing that. Wholly agree, no arguments here. Merely replacing fossil fuels is not the answer. A rational and sustainable energy future requires great reductions in energy use (currently mostly waste), great improvements in energy use efficiency, and, most important, decentralisation of supply to the small-scale or farm-scale local-economy level, along with the use of all ready-to-use renewable energy technologies in combination as the local circumstances require. To say the world's 800 million cars will compete for food resources with the 1.2 billion people living on less than $1 a day shows a lack of understanding of how the market works. See eg.: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html Biofuels - Food or Fuel? No core argument, however, I think that fuel/food competition is already happening. But I think it's no different than the usual food competition, with people being marginalised from their own resources to make way for industrialised production of food and ag commodities for trade in the global market. So for instance, with the so-called Green Revolution, countries that used to be self-sufficient in rice successfully became rice exporters but with large and growing numbers of poor and hungry people at home, along with severe environmental problems (which primarily impact on the poor). Wealth extraction, poverty creation, same old story. What difference does it make if these extracted commodities include biofuels feedstock? It just adds fuel miles to food miles, but it's the same issue. Like all industrialised agriculture production it's heavily dependent on fossil-fuel inputs - dinosaur bone oil, LOL! What sort of sense does it make to produce allegedly sustainable and renewable biofuels crops if it depends on exactly the resource it's supposed to be replacing? There's nothing sustainable about industrialised agriculture, it has no future. Currently, dinosaur bone oil costs are mostly hidden from view, and bio-oil is under a microscope for cost models. all things being equal, it's my most ignorant guess that once you strip away all the huge subsidies that dinosaur bone oil receives, add in the health-care costs, you start seeing gas at the pump in the 10 to 12 dollar a gallon range, That seems to be quite a good guess, but it's probably more than that, see below. and bio-oil is probably something like one third to half that. With this in mind, and some of the forest-to-farm land conversion that is happening around the world to address local fuel needs, Local fuel needs? and the picture is a bit more cloudy. Adding biofuel to the picture doesn't change it much. On the other hand, there's a massive worldwide swing towards sustainable farming. Eg: In the world's largest study into sustainable agriculture, Jules Pretty, professor of environment and society at the University of Essex (UK) analysed more than 200 projects in 52 countries. He found that more than four million farms were involved -- 3 per cent of fields in the Third World. And, most remarkably, average increases in crop yields were 73 per cent. Sustainable agriculture, Pretty concludes, has most to offer to small farms. Its methods are cheap, use locally available technology and often improve the environment. Above all they most help the people who need help the most -- poor farmers and their families, who make up the majority of the world's hungry people. See: Reducing Food Poverty with Sustainable Agriculture: A Summary of New Evidence Centre for Environment and Society, University of Essex http://www2.essex.ac.uk/ces/ResearchProgrammes/SAFEWexecsummfinalreport.htm 47 Portraits of Sustainable Agriculture Projects and Initiatives Centre for Environment and Society, University of Essex http://www2.essex.ac.uk/ces/ResearchProgrammes/SAFEW47casessusag.htm Update: http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/esthag/2006/40/i04/abs/es051670d.html Resource-Conserving Agriculture Increases Yields in Developing Countries December 21, 2005 Most of the programs we are talking about happened despite the policy, instead of there being one, Pretty says. I don't believe the pressures on forests are much different, just more so. Palm oil plantations are devastating tropical forests, but they've been doing that since long before there was any interest in biodiesel. Palm oil is big biz, biodiesel or not. There's not really anything new here, these are the same issues we've been against all along. I have a niggling feeling that 10 years from now, the environmentalists will be fighting the ethanol industry tooth and nail. anything
Re: [Biofuel] Interesting Read
Chip Mefford wrote: In other news, I'll soon also have the 3rdworld CD online. Will post the url when I get it up. If anyone knows how to bust an iso image up into 'chunks' that can be reassembled into a workable iso image, please let me know. I'm glad to say that renegade.sparks.net isn't being deluged, but the more the merrier. As for breaking the image up, it's trivial with dd, a standard unix utility. With Windows you're on your own:) I broke it up into 32 MB chunks on renegade: See http://renegade.sparks.net/cd3wd http://renegade.sparks.net/cd3wd/readme gives brief directions on how to reassemble it. Hope this helps. --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Interesting Read
David Miller wrote: Chip Mefford wrote: If anyone knows how to bust an iso image up into 'chunks' that can be reassembled into a workable iso image, please let me know. As for breaking the image up, it's trivial with dd, a standard unix utility. With Windows you're on your own:) I broke it up into 32 MB chunks on renegade: See http://renegade.sparks.net/cd3wd http://renegade.sparks.net/cd3wd/readme gives brief directions on how to reassemble it. Why break it up at all? Distributing large ISOs is practically what BitTorrent was invented for. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Interesting Read
John Hayes wrote: David Miller wrote: Chip Mefford wrote: If anyone knows how to bust an iso image up into 'chunks' that can be reassembled into a workable iso image, please let me know. As for breaking the image up, it's trivial with dd, a standard unix utility. With Windows you're on your own:) I broke it up into 32 MB chunks on renegade: See http://renegade.sparks.net/cd3wd http://renegade.sparks.net/cd3wd/readme gives brief directions on how to reassemble it. Why break it up at all? Distributing large ISOs is practically what BitTorrent was invented for. It is an excellent use of BitTorrent. Not all users have BitTorrent clients though, and not people with server resources have the time /interest/knowledge to run one. I may run one someday; for now I'll just help distribute the CD with what I can easily offer. I would certainly encourage others to make materials like this available via BitTorrent. --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Interesting Read
Hello Chip Probably, a lot of you are already familiar with the work of Lester Brown. I'm not however, and was recently introduced to it by a friend. I've read a few chapters online, and have ordered to book. From Chapter 1; In this new world, the price of oil begins to set the price of food, not so much because of rising fuel costs for farmers and food processors but more because almost everything we eat can be converted into fuel for cars. In this new world of high oil prices, supermarkets and service stations will compete in commodity markets for basic food commodities such as wheat, corn, soybeans, and sugarcane. Wheat going into the market can be converted into bread for supermarkets or ethanol for service stations. Soybean oil can go onto supermarket shelves or it can go to service stations to be used as diesel fuel. In effect, owners of the worldís 800 million cars will be competing for food resources with the 1.2 billion people living on less than $1 a day. 9 Faced with a seemingly insatiable demand for automotive fuel, farmers will want to clear more and more of the remaining tropical forests to produce sugarcane, oil palms, and other high-yielding fuel crops. Already, billions of dollars of private capital are moving into this effort. In effect, the rising price of oil is generating a massive new threat to the earthís biological diversity. Actually it's the industrialised countries' addiction to wasting energy that's doing that. Merely replacing fossil fuels is not the answer. A rational and sustainable energy future requires great reductions in energy use (currently mostly waste), great improvements in energy use efficiency, and, most important, decentralisation of supply to the small-scale or farm-scale local-economy level, along with the use of all ready-to-use renewable energy technologies in combination as the local circumstances require. To say the world's 800 million cars will compete for food resources with the 1.2 billion people living on less than $1 a day shows a lack of understanding of how the market works. See eg.: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html Biofuels - Food or Fuel? And: Less than three-tenths of one percent of total US corn exports went to the 25 poorest countries in 1996. More US corn goes to make alcoholic beverages in the US than is exported to feed the hungry in the world's 25 most undernourished countries combined. http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? More here which should be of interest: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch Best Keith http://www.earth-policy.org/Books/PB2/Contents.htm - In other news, I'll soon also have the 3rdworld CD online. Will post the url when I get it up. If anyone knows how to bust an iso image up into 'chunks' that can be reassembled into a workable iso image, please let me know. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Interesting Read
So...did Monbiot get his "research" for "Feeding Cars, not People" from Lester Brown or, was it the other way around.It's the same short-sighted promoter of fear that conveniently holds back information on more comprehensive incorporation of biofuel into a diverse, long term energy strategy.Claims that put fear into those who haven't done their own research will be offset by a growing public consensus on the Internet AND a reexamination of suppressed technologies from the 1940's through the 70's - technologies with associated patents which havebecome public domain.All we have to do now is keep large telecom corporations from merging and influencing legislation that controls Internet traffic.MikeKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello ChipProbably, a lot of you are already familiar with the work ofLester Brown. I'm not however, and was recently introducedto it by a friend.I've read a few chapters online, and have ordered to book. From Chapter 1;"In this new world, the price of oil begins to set the price of food,not so much because of rising fuel costs for farmers and food processorsbut more because almost everything we eat can be converted into fuel forcars. In this new world of high oil prices, supermarkets and servicestations will compete in commodity markets for basic food commoditiessuch as wheat, corn, soybeans, and sugarcane. Wheat going into themarket can be converted into bread for supermarkets or ethanol forservice stations. Soybean oil can go onto supermarket shelves or it cango to service stations to be used as diesel fuel. In effect, owners ofthe worldís 800 million cars will be competing for food resources withthe 1.2 billion people living on less than $1 a day. 9Faced with a seemingly insatiable demand for automotive fuel, farmerswill want to clear more and more of the remaining tropical forests toproduce sugarcane, oil palms, and other high-yielding fuel crops.Already, billions of dollars of private capital are moving into thiseffort. In effect, the rising price of oil is generating a massive newthreat to the earthís biological diversity."Actually it's the industrialised countries' addiction to wasting energy that's doing that."Merely replacing fossil fuels is not the answer. A rational and sustainable energy future requires great reductions in energy use (currently mostly waste), great improvements in energy use efficiency, and, most important, decentralisation of supply to the small-scale or farm-scale local-economy level, along with the use of all ready-to-use renewable energy technologies in combination as the local circumstances require."To say the world's 800 million cars will compete for food resources with the 1.2 billion people living on less than $1 a day shows a lack of understanding of how the market works. See eg.:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.htmlBiofuels - Food or Fuel?And:"Less than three-tenths of one percent of total US corn exports went to the 25 poorest countries in 1996. More US corn goes to make alcoholic beverages in the US than is exported to feed the hungry in the world's 25 most undernourished countries combined."http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.htmlIs ethanol energy-efficient?More here which should be of interest:"How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?"http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuchBestKeith___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Interesting Read
Keith Addison wrote: Hello Chip Probably, a lot of you are already familiar with the work of Lester Brown. I'm not however, and was recently introduced to it by a friend. I've read a few chapters online, and have ordered to book. SNIP Actually it's the industrialised countries' addiction to wasting energy that's doing that. Wholly agree, no arguments here. Merely replacing fossil fuels is not the answer. A rational and sustainable energy future requires great reductions in energy use (currently mostly waste), great improvements in energy use efficiency, and, most important, decentralisation of supply to the small-scale or farm-scale local-economy level, along with the use of all ready-to-use renewable energy technologies in combination as the local circumstances require. To say the world's 800 million cars will compete for food resources with the 1.2 billion people living on less than $1 a day shows a lack of understanding of how the market works. See eg.: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html Biofuels - Food or Fuel? No core argument, however, I think that fuel/food competition is already happening. Currently, dinosaur bone oil costs are mostly hidden from view, and bio-oil is under a microscope for cost models. all things being equal, it's my most ignorant guess that once you strip away all the huge subsidies that dinosaur bone oil receives, add in the health-care costs, you start seeing gas at the pump in the 10 to 12 dollar a gallon range, and bio-oil is probably something like one third to half that. With this in mind, and some of the forest-to-farm land conversion that is happening around the world to address local fuel needs, and the picture is a bit more cloudy. Yes, completely concurr with the overall thesis that a rational and sustainable energy future requires great reductions in energy use. Or, as you say, energy waste. And: Less than three-tenths of one percent of total US corn exports went to the 25 poorest countries in 1996. More US corn goes to make alcoholic beverages in the US than is exported to feed the hungry in the world's 25 most undernourished countries combined. http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? I read your paper and I certainly have no arguments with it at all. And the fun part is, the new ethanol processes are not represented, and those make the picture even more hopeful. More here which should be of interest: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch In short, we can grow enough, with existing resources, using a 'rational and sustainable' approach. There are those who are going to take Lester Brown's work as FUD. It isn't. At least not by my reading. There are those who are going to say that there is no deforestation taking place to expand sugar cane farms for fuel production. That isn't the case, it is happening. Or rather, it has happened in the immediate past. But again, this all comes around to your original point, it's the industrialised countries' addiction to wasting energy that's doing that. It is indeed. And more of the world is becoming industrialised by the second. Addiction is the right word. Best All the best to you, and keep up the good work! Keith ==chipper ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
