Re: [Biofuel] Large crops, less nutrients
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, Have these large crops in your garden been tested for nutrients? No. They're not abnormally large, at least, I don't think so. There are sunflower plants growing in someone else's garden in Abbotsford that are at least as tall as mine. Last year, our maize never grew taller than about 50 cm. I'm absolutely delighted that we have normal maize this year. The cabbage hasn't fared very well (lots of aphids) and every fruit tree (except our apple) dropped its fruit. If you'd seen the soil we started with and how it looks now, you'd be pretty impressed, I think! Should I be concerned? I don't think so Robert. It might be a concern if you hadn't been rebuilding your soil, or even building it from nothing. Without stable soil conditions (if there is such a thing) and a control for comparison there are just too many variables to isolate this single CO2 factor, which is likely to be very slight (at least for now). The great crops you're getting (trees next year?) are a predictable result of your fertilisation work, compost, sweat, sunlight and water. Should be less sweat every year. Meanwhile, strength to yer arm! :-) Anyway, when chemists look at plants and/or soil and start talking about nitrogen, beware!!! For a start, nitrogen may be a plant nutrient, but it isn't a people nutrient. Do you know how they measure protein content in crops? They don't, they measure the nitrogen content instead and multiply by, by what, 6.14, IIRC, the ratio of N in protein, and, hey, that's the protein content. Only it turns out that the more N in the form of NPK chemical fertiliser was used to grow the crop (or maybe just pump it up and paint it green) the more likely it is that a lot of the alleged protein content will be nitrates and nitrites and other semi-synthesised stuff that's not only not exactly nutritious it can be downright toxic. The N in your compost, however, is different: it doesn't deplete the soil O/M, it doesn't wreck the soil pH, nor the soil life, it doesn't make dead pools in the Gulf of Mexico or anything like that, it just steadily becomes available to the roots as the plants need it, and, along with all the other effects of your compost - primarily biological effects - it helps the plants build real protein. But the difference will not only not be apparent to said chemist, he'll probably deny it exists, thus flying in the face of a large amount of scientific evidence, and a vast amount of other evidence. Of course there are chemists and chemists, just the same as there are fertilisers and fertilisers. All best Keith robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Large crops, less nutrients
Organically grown crops tend to have their nitrogen in complete proteins. Plants grown with large amounts of nitrogen fertilizer tend to have a certain content of free amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) in the plant sap which the plant-eating (juice sucking) insects find very convenient. It saves them considerable energy which they would otherwise have to use to chew leaves etc. and digest proteins. Doug Woodard St. Catahrines, Ontario, Canada On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Keith Addison wrote: [snip] Anyway, when chemists look at plants and/or soil and start talking about nitrogen, beware!!! For a start, nitrogen may be a plant nutrient, but it isn't a people nutrient. Do you know how they measure protein content in crops? They don't, they measure the nitrogen content instead and multiply by, by what, 6.14, IIRC, the ratio of N in protein, and, hey, that's the protein content. Only it turns out that the more N in the form of NPK chemical fertiliser was used to grow the crop (or maybe just pump it up and paint it green) the more likely it is that a lot of the alleged protein content will be nitrates and nitrites and other semi-synthesised stuff that's not only not exactly nutritious it can be downright toxic. The N in your compost, however, is different: it doesn't deplete the soil O/M, it doesn't wreck the soil pH, nor the soil life, it doesn't make dead pools in the Gulf of Mexico or anything like that, it just steadily becomes available to the roots as the plants need it, and, along with all the other effects of your compost - primarily biological effects - it helps the plants build real protein. But the difference will not only not be apparent to said chemist, he'll probably deny it exists, thus flying in the face of a large amount of scientific evidence, and a vast amount of other evidence. Of course there are chemists and chemists, just the same as there are fertilisers and fertilisers. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Large crops, less nutrients
Quite right Doug. Best wishes Keith Organically grown crops tend to have their nitrogen in complete proteins. Plants grown with large amounts of nitrogen fertilizer tend to have a certain content of free amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) in the plant sap which the plant-eating (juice sucking) insects find very convenient. It saves them considerable energy which they would otherwise have to use to chew leaves etc. and digest proteins. Doug Woodard St. Catahrines, Ontario, Canada On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Keith Addison wrote: [snip] Anyway, when chemists look at plants and/or soil and start talking about nitrogen, beware!!! For a start, nitrogen may be a plant nutrient, but it isn't a people nutrient. Do you know how they measure protein content in crops? They don't, they measure the nitrogen content instead and multiply by, by what, 6.14, IIRC, the ratio of N in protein, and, hey, that's the protein content. Only it turns out that the more N in the form of NPK chemical fertiliser was used to grow the crop (or maybe just pump it up and paint it green) the more likely it is that a lot of the alleged protein content will be nitrates and nitrites and other semi-synthesised stuff that's not only not exactly nutritious it can be downright toxic. The N in your compost, however, is different: it doesn't deplete the soil O/M, it doesn't wreck the soil pH, nor the soil life, it doesn't make dead pools in the Gulf of Mexico or anything like that, it just steadily becomes available to the roots as the plants need it, and, along with all the other effects of your compost - primarily biological effects - it helps the plants build real protein. But the difference will not only not be apparent to said chemist, he'll probably deny it exists, thus flying in the face of a large amount of scientific evidence, and a vast amount of other evidence. Of course there are chemists and chemists, just the same as there are fertilisers and fertilisers. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Large crops, less nutrients
Doug wrote: Organically grown crops tend to have their nitrogen in complete proteins. Plants grown with large amounts of nitrogen fertilizer tend to have a certain content of free amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) in the plant sap which the plant-eating (juice sucking) insects find very convenient. It saves them considerable energy which they would otherwise have to use to chew leaves etc. and digest proteins. The artice I quoted (Planet of the Plants By Glenn SchererPosted July 25, 2005) also said the things below about insects eating more because of nutrients dropping. I hope this is also something we can deal with. Marilyn CO2-induced nitrogen deficiency in plants has already been shown to affect herbivorous insects and the carnivores that eat them. To make up for the plunge in plant protein, some plant-eating insects must dramatically increase their intake of vegetation. But unable to keep up with the need to eat enough food, some bugs suffer increased malnutrition, starvation, predation, and mortality, writes evolutionary biologist David Seaborg in a recent issue of Earth Island Journal. When Western Michigan University entomologist David Karowe fed cabbage white butterfly caterpillars leaves grown in an atmosphere with double the earth's current CO2 levels, the insects ate about 40 percent more plant matter than under current atmospheric conditions. But they still couldn't meet their dietary needs. Their growth rate slowed by about 10 percent and their adult size was smaller. Peter Stiling at the University of South Florida made similar findings for leaf miners, insects that eat out tiny caverns in leaves where they live. When they took up housekeeping in CO2-enriched leaves, the insects had to eat out 20 percent larger leaf homes. But the bugs were still twice as likely to die of starvation as insects living at today's CO2 levels. As serious as these results seem, no one should jump to conclusions, says William Mattson, chief insect ecologist with the U.S. Forest Service in Rhinelander, Wis. He has spent the past five years monitoring 10 insect species and found they react differently to raised CO2 levels and lowered nitrogen levels, with some showing no change and others harmed, and no clear pattern yet in sight. He worries, though, that CO2 fertilization and nitrogen depletion could combine to alter insect balances in unexpected ways. For example, the leaf miners described above were also four times more likely to be killed by parasitic wasps -- bad news for the miners but good news for the wasps. In another study, aphids reproduced 10 to 15 percent faster in enriched CO2 atmospheres -- good for the aphids, but bad for the crops they infest. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Large crops, less nutrients
I've got an idea about the crop food, that consist in this sentence scheme: produce renevable energy - carbon dioxide+NOx+SOx and so on mixed ashes with other nutrient derived solid substance after fermentation good quality crop food. Bye Ezio Quite right Doug. Best wishes Keith Organically grown crops tend to have their nitrogen in complete proteins. Plants grown with large amounts of nitrogen fertilizer tend to have a certain content of free amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) in the plant sap which the plant-eating (juice sucking) insects find very convenient. It saves them considerable energy which they would otherwise have to use to chew leaves etc. and digest proteins. Doug Woodard St. Catahrines, Ontario, Canada On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Keith Addison wrote: [snip] Anyway, when chemists look at plants and/or soil and start talking about nitrogen, beware!!! For a start, nitrogen may be a plant nutrient, but it isn't a people nutrient. Do you know how they measure protein content in crops? They don't, they measure the nitrogen content instead and multiply by, by what, 6.14, IIRC, the ratio of N in protein, and, hey, that's the protein content. Only it turns out that the more N in the form of NPK chemical fertiliser was used to grow the crop (or maybe just pump it up and paint it green) the more likely it is that a lot of the alleged protein content will be nitrates and nitrites and other semi-synthesised stuff that's not only not exactly nutritious it can be downright toxic. The N in your compost, however, is different: it doesn't deplete the soil O/M, it doesn't wreck the soil pH, nor the soil life, it doesn't make dead pools in the Gulf of Mexico or anything like that, it just steadily becomes available to the roots as the plants need it, and, along with all the other effects of your compost - primarily biological effects - it helps the plants build real protein. But the difference will not only not be apparent to said chemist, he'll probably deny it exists, thus flying in the face of a large amount of scientific evidence, and a vast amount of other evidence. Of course there are chemists and chemists, just the same as there are fertilisers and fertilisers. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Libero Flat, sempre a 4 Mega a 19,95 euro al mese! Abbonati subito su http://www.libero.it ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Large crops, less nutrients
Doug wrote: "Organically grown crops tend to have their nitrogen in complete proteins. Plants grown with large amounts of nitrogen fertilizer tend to have a certain content of free amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) in the plant sap which the plant-eating (juice sucking) insects find very convenient. It saves them considerable energy which they would otherwise have to use to chew leaves etc. and digest proteins." The artice I quoted (Planet of the Plants By Glenn SchererPosted July 25, 2005) also said the things below about insects eating more because of nutrients dropping. I hope this is also something we can deal with. Marilyn "CO2-induced nitrogen deficiency in plants has already been shown to affect herbivorous insects and the carnivores that eat them. To make up for the plunge in plant protein, some plant-eating insects must dramatically increase their intake of vegetation. But unable to keep up with the need to eat enough food, some bugs suffer increased malnutrition, starvation, predation, and mortality, writes evolutionary biologist David Seaborg in a recent issue of Earth Island Journal. When Western Michigan University entomologist David Karowe fed cabbage white butterfly caterpillars leaves grown in an atmosphere with double the earth's current CO2 levels, the insects ate about 40 percent more plant matter than under current atmospheric conditions. But they still couldn't meet their dietary needs. Their growth rate slowed by about 10 percent and their adult size was smaller. Peter Stiling at the University of South Florida made similar findings for leaf miners, insects that eat out tiny caverns in leaves where they live. When they took up housekeeping in CO2-enriched leaves, the insects had to eat out 20 percent larger leaf homes. But the bugs were still twice More CO2 More vgetation This concept is very important to develope the crop-food. Sincerily Ezio as likely to die of starvation as insects living at today's CO2 levels. As serious as these results seem, no one should jump to conclusions, says William Mattson, chief insect ecologist with the U.S. Forest Service in Rhinelander, Wis. He has spent the past five years monitoring 10 insect species and found they react differently to raised CO2 levels and lowered nitrogen levels, with some showing no change and others harmed, and no clear pattern yet in sight. He worries, though, that CO2 fertilization and nitrogen depletion could combine to alter insect balances in unexpected ways. For example, the leaf miners described above were also four times more likely to be killed by parasitic wasps -- bad news for the miners but good news for the wasps. In another study, aphids reproduced 10 to 15 percent faster in enriched CO2 atmospheres -- good for the aphids, but bad for the crops they infest."___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Libero Flat, sempre a 4 Mega a 19,95 euro al mese! Abbonati subito su http://www.libero.it ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Large crops, less nutrients
Comments below... Doug wrote: Organically grown crops tend to have their nitrogen in complete proteins. Plants grown with large amounts of nitrogen fertilizer tend to have a certain content of free amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) in the plant sap which the plant-eating (juice sucking) insects find very convenient. It saves them considerable energy which they would otherwise have to use to chew leaves etc. and digest proteins. The artice I quoted (Planet of the Plants By Glenn SchererPosted July 25, 2005) also said the things below about insects eating more because of nutrients dropping. I hope this is also something we can deal with. Marilyn CO2-induced nitrogen deficiency in plants has already been shown to affect herbivorous insects and the carnivores that eat them. To make up for the plunge in plant protein, some plant-eating insects must dramatically increase their intake of vegetation. But unable to keep up with the need to eat enough food, some bugs suffer increased malnutrition, starvation, predation, and mortality, writes evolutionary biologist David Seaborg in a recent issue of Earth Island Journal. When Western Michigan University entomologist David Karowe fed cabbage white butterfly caterpillars leaves grown in an atmosphere with double the earth's current CO2 levels, the insects ate about 40 percent more plant matter than under current atmospheric conditions. But they still couldn't meet their dietary needs. Their growth rate slowed by about 10 percent and their adult size was smaller. Peter Stiling at the University of South Florida made similar findings for leaf miners, insects that eat out tiny caverns in leaves where they live. When they took up housekeeping in CO2-enriched leaves, the insects had to eat out 20 percent larger leaf homes. But the bugs were still twice More CO2 More vgetation Maybe so, but what sort of vegetation? As Marilyn is saying, you get twice as much of half as little and you end up with not enough. This concept is very important to develope the crop-food. The damage excess CO2 from global warming will cause is certainly very important. In fact, as things stand now there is NO shortage of food, there is more food **per capita** than there has ever been before, more than enough for everybody. The answer to the billion-odd people in the world today who don't have enough food and the further billion-off who're on the brink of it is NOT to produce more food, it's to dump the inequitable world economic system that claims to create wealth but in fact creates poverty and hunger. Best wishes Keith Sincerily Ezio as likely to die of starvation as insects living at today's CO2 levels. As serious as these results seem, no one should jump to conclusions, says William Mattson, chief insect ecologist with the U.S. Forest Service in Rhinelander, Wis. He has spent the past five years monitoring 10 insect species and found they react differently to raised CO2 levels and lowered nitrogen levels, with some showing no change and others harmed, and no clear pattern yet in sight. He worries, though, that CO2 fertilization and nitrogen depletion could combine to alter insect balances in unexpected ways. For example, the leaf miners described above were also four times more likely to be killed by parasitic wasps -- bad news for the miners but good news for the wasps. In another study, aphids reproduced 10 to 15 percent faster in enriched CO2 atmospheres -- good for the aphids, but bad for the crops they infest. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Large crops, less nutrients
The concentration in atmosphere depend from the deforestation. If you cultivate in extreme condition of temperature high concetration of CO2 and other nutrients, you obtain a big results in quantiyt and quality. Is it clear? I hope yes. Wishes Ezio Libero Flat, sempre a 4 Mega a 19,95 euro al mese! Abbonati subito su http://www.libero.it ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Large crops, less nutrients
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, Have these large crops in your garden been tested for nutrients? No. They're not abnormally large, at least, I don't think so. There are sunflower plants growing in someone else's garden in Abbotsford that are at least as tall as mine. Last year, our maize never grew taller than about 50 cm. I'm absolutely delighted that we have normal maize this year. The cabbage hasn't fared very well (lots of aphids) and every fruit tree (except our apple) dropped its fruit. If you'd seen the soil we started with and how it looks now, you'd be pretty impressed, I think! Should I be concerned? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
