Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Ken Dunn wrote: When talking to friends, family and others regarding the Earth-friendly practices that we can all include in our lifestyles, I always stumble over quantifying the true price of packaging for consumer goods. Its easy enough to calculate the transportation costs of an avacodo from California to Lancaster County, PA. Its also fairly straight forward to relay the burden on natural resources - the real price we pay. Adding it all up is also easily enough accomplished. But, how do you really calculate the expense of packaging materials? The company who produced that iten figured it in to there costs. The store who bought it then sold it to you figured the weight in there shipping costs. How much petroleum goes into one plastic bag? The company that made the bag knows. Call one and ask them how many units of X they get for Y stock. Of course, the plastic won't break down in any of our lifetimes yet, its not easy to determine the displacement of a resource when you don't know the inputs. For many (Americans anyway) Thats insulting. Americans are not the only wasteful people on the planet. Yes its hard to say but its easy to figure out. How much source material was used? How much X went into that? Ask the companies, they might tell you, they might not. I won't be here in a million years so, who cares?. Then again, there are always the ever increasing landfills to point to. NIMBY does have some power there yet, that approach is only a scare tactic to be exploited and I have no time for that. Mmmm,, yes who does care? What portion of a tree is consumed to create a cardboard box that is used just long enough for the DVD player (I almost said VCR :-) ) to make its way from the factory to the store and then the family room only to be mummified in the local dump? How much extra weight does the box add to the truck? How much extra fuel does the extra weight consume? Again track the product and its material. I once heard that paper products are better then 80% efficient. If that is true then 1lb of wood gives .8lb of paper product. What is the weight of your matrial? For a while I questioned whether paper really WAS any better than plastic. For a while I used plastic based on the premise that I could recycle the plastic. I've now decided that paper is better than plastic if only for the reason that the paper atleast comes from a natural resource that is sustainable (sort of). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_pulp Today, some people and groups are advocating using field crop fiber instead of wood fiber as being more sustaible. Paper and such fiber products are far better then plastics in many ways. This does not mean plastics do not have a home. But, is paper better than plastic? For making bathroom tissue it sure is! What if we returned to using plastic made from soy beans like ol' Henry's boys discovered? Would it still be better to use paper over plastic? See above. What if we did return to it? Is it cheaper to do? Is it a better product? If not, Why would any business do it? How much energy is consumed to produce all of these packaging materials? And how much more is consumed to dispose of them? For the production its easy, less then X dollars for a product that costs X dollars. There must be proffit along the way, no one is doing it for free. Rant as I may, how do we get the point across to the producers of goods that we want lass packaging? They already use as little packaging as they feel they safely can. Why? Cause more costs them more and they want ot spend as little as they can. Sorry but a VCR/DVD player NEEDS protective packaging. We can buy local all day long but, Sony doesn't have a factory near me. Even if they did, I'd still probably have to take the packaging with me. Yes you would. Whats so bad about that? Recycle if you want. Or not, that IS a option you have. I think we need better recycling laws. Dumps should be recycling centers each and every one. Only the absolute worst stuff should be tossed forever and even that should be solved.. Take care all, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Jeromie, Who should have the right to be upset? At 05:11 07/10/2005, you wrote: Ken Dunn wrote: snip Of course, the plastic won't break down in any of our lifetimes yet, its not easy to determine the displacement of a resource when you don't know the inputs. For many (Americans anyway) Thats insulting. Americans are not the only wasteful people on the planet. Yes its hard to say but its easy to figure out. How much source material was used? How much X went into that? Ask the companies, they might tell you, they might not. It is the most wasteful people on the earth, by no comparison. 4+% of the world population, who uses 25% of the world resources. It is not a question of insult, it is the sad truth. To hide behind a hypocritical emotion about insult, instead of put an end to the unfair and irresponsible waste of resources. I know that you want to do something about it, otherwise you would not be on this list, but defending your fellow Americans? Hakan Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Hi Hakan and all, One of the real problems is not having an economic system that accounts for the lack of degradability or environmental consequences of products produced. This is a world wide problem not limited to the U.S. More than10 years ago I worked on a research team to make a biodegradable plastic. We accomplished this and had formulations that worked in most plastic processing equipment. Of course, polyethylene was $0.26 per pound and our formulations were about a dollar more per pound. We had a wonderful niche market product that couldn´t support us. The same is true for PET. There´s a company that I worked for that holds a patent for recycling waste PET chemically back to original components, bottles from bottles with no residual contamination.Transportation costs of the light plastics kill this one. Many industries have solutions but they are not economical with the present low cost of the plastics they would replace or recycle. Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
with the rising cost of oil these will eventually become valuable resources, Its also only a matter of time before we start mining our rubbish dumps! There's also a French company i saw on Beyond 2000, it had to do with turning tires back into its raw components. once again once bought back, it cost more to process than the end products where worth. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Tom IrwinSent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:07 PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message Hi Hakan and all, One of the real problems is not having an economic system that accounts for the lack of degradability or environmental consequences of products produced. This is a world wide problem not limited to the U.S. More than10 years ago I worked on a research team to make a biodegradable plastic. We accomplished this and had formulations that worked in most plastic processing equipment. Of course, polyethylene was $0.26 per pound and our formulations were about a dollar more per pound. We had a wonderful niche market product that couldn´t support us. The same is true for PET. There´s a company that I worked for that holds a patent for recycling waste PET chemically back to original components, bottles from bottles with no residual contamination.Transportation costs of the light plastics kill this one. Many industries have solutions but they are not economical with the present low cost of the plastics they would replace or recycle. Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Hi Tom and Bede, Maybe the coming oil crises will be a blessing for our earth. Because the moment oil is no loner available, we have to produce fuel and plastics etc. from other sources. If all playing on a level field, the possibilities are more equal and the wealth will be more distributed. US had the advantage to be the first oil economy and that the large oil resources have been in less populated countries, which could be developed by US interests. Next step will be a development of the coal resources and US, Russia and China have maybe 70% of known resources and this time US will not be able to manipulate. Since the coal will be expensive, the rest of the world will be competing with renewable agriculture based alternatives on more equal terms. To have any kind of possibilities to survive, coal has to carry large cost for sequestering of polluting chemicals and gases. This especially if the hydrogen economy becomes a reality. The handling of nuclear waste will be a minor problem, compared with what the future generations will face The wealth and powers to be, will have a totally different structure than today and none of us can really imagine how the future will look. We will not participate in this future, but our attitudes and work of today, will be of utmost importance. It is now that we can effect the outcome and if we do not take Global warming and other things very serious, our future generations will carry the punishment. It is no risks of that we can be to cautious and careful, because it will be a possibility to sustain the future if we follow this principles anyway. The world is probably on the edge and it does not take much to tip the balance towards disasters. Nothing will be able to solve without a strict energy efficiency, which also will be the best economical regime. It is amazing that US is using 3 times and Canada 4 times more energy in their buildings, than Sweden does. This after climate corrections. With dirt cheap oil, it was expensive, but with todays oil prices, it has become very economical. This is also something that cannot be occupied by military force and is closer to sustainable. Hakan At 12:29 07/10/2005, you wrote: with the rising cost of oil these will eventually become valuable resources, Its also only a matter of time before we start mining our rubbish dumps! There's also a French company i saw on Beyond 2000, it had to do with turning tires back into its raw components. once again once bought back, it cost more to process than the end products where worth. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom Irwin Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:07 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message Hi Hakan and all, One of the real problems is not having an economic system that accounts for the lack of degradability or environmental consequences of products produced. This is a world wide problem not limited to the U.S. More than 10 years ago I worked on a research team to make a biodegradable plastic. We accomplished this and had formulations that worked in most plastic processing equipment. Of course, polyethylene was $0.26 per pound and our formulations were about a dollar more per pound. We had a wonderful niche market product that couldn´t support us. The same is true for PET. There´s a company that I worked for that holds a patent for recycling waste PET chemically back to original components, bottles from bottles with no residual contamination. Transportation costs of the light plastics kill this one. Many industries have solutions but they are not economical with the present low cost of the plastics they would replace or recycle. Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Bede a écrit : with the rising cost of oil these will eventually become valuable resources, Its also only a matter of time before we start mining our rubbish dumps! There's also a French company i saw on Beyond 2000, it had to do with turning tires back into its raw components. once again once bought back, it cost more to process than the end products where worth. Bonjour, I didn't heard about it but I know that a part of non-re-usable tyres are recycled in France as materials for road making (noiseless, water draining), drainage pipes or combustibles for industry or thermic power plants. But it's only a part of refused. Not far from my home, a former career will be filled with tyres for long time stock. Tyres recycling in France is the business of this organisation : http://www.aliapur.fr/ English brochure : http://www.aliapur.fr/0-uploads/english_brochure.pdf PEHD, PET and ABS are industrialy re-used once as textile fabric (polar wool, car components or many other not-for-food purposes) I guess that many other uses are planned but not enough to solve problems. 101 chemical ways of plastic recycling are described [in french] by the french gov agency for environment ( http://www.ademe.fr/htdocs/publications/publipdf/plastiques.htm ). Simple energetic use is often not available dued to chloric or heavy metallic parts in plastics. Many URL about this. Plastic wastes recycling is a rising industry in Europe. More money to manage wastes than to reduce their consuption business is business frantz from france ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
The many projects and technologies that pass or fail to make it into the regulated environment have a common thread. To measure and improve, we must compare apples to apples. An energy credit trading scheme is a stopgap measure consistant with current tech levels. It allows measurable product creation, measurable transportation and measurable distribution. R -- Original Message -- From: Jeromie Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 20:11:51 -0700 Ken Dunn wrote: When talking to friends, family and others regarding the Earth-friendly practices that we can all include in our lifestyles, I always stumble over quantifying the true price of packaging for consumer goods. Its easy enough to calculate the transportation costs of an avacodo from California to Lancaster County, PA. Its also fairly straight forward to relay the burden on natural resources - the real price we pay. Adding it all up is also easily enough accomplished. But, how do you really calculate the expense of packaging materials? The company who produced that iten figured it in to there costs. The store who bought it then sold it to you figured the weight in there shipping costs. How much petroleum goes into one plastic bag? The company that made the bag knows. Call one and ask them how many units of X they get for Y stock. Of course, the plastic won't break down in any of our lifetimes yet, its not easy to determine the displacement of a resource when you don't know the inputs. For many (Americans anyway) Thats insulting. Americans are not the only wasteful people on the planet. Yes its hard to say but its easy to figure out. How much source material was used? How much X went into that? Ask the companies, they might tell you, they might not. I won't be here in a million years so, who cares?. Then again, there are always the ever increasing landfills to point to. NIMBY does have some power there yet, that approach is only a scare tactic to be exploited and I have no time for that. Mmmm,, yes who does care? What portion of a tree is consumed to create a cardboard box that is used just long enough for the DVD player (I almost said VCR :-) ) to make its way from the factory to the store and then the family room only to be mummified in the local dump? How much extra weight does the box add to the truck? How much extra fuel does the extra weight consume? Again track the product and its material. I once heard that paper products are better then 80% efficient. If that is true then 1lb of wood gives .8lb of paper product. What is the weight of your matrial? For a while I questioned whether paper really WAS any better than plastic. For a while I used plastic based on the premise that I could recycle the plastic. I've now decided that paper is better than plastic if only for the reason that the paper atleast comes from a natural resource that is sustainable (sort of). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_pulp Today, some people and groups are advocating using field crop fiber instead of wood fiber as being more sustaible. Paper and such fiber products are far better then plastics in many ways. This does not mean plastics do not have a home. But, is paper better than plastic? For making bathroom tissue it sure is! What if we returned to using plastic made from soy beans like ol' Henry's boys discovered? Would it still be better to use paper over plastic? See above. What if we did return to it? Is it cheaper to do? Is it a better product? If not, Why would any business do it? How much energy is consumed to produce all of these packaging materials? And how much more is consumed to dispose of them? For the production its easy, less then X dollars for a product that costs X dollars. There must be proffit along the way, no one is doing it for free. Rant as I may, how do we get the point across to the producers of goods that we want lass packaging? They already use as little packaging as they feel they safely can. Why? Cause more costs them more and they want ot spend as little as they can. Sorry but a VCR/DVD player NEEDS protective packaging. We can buy local all day long but, Sony doesn't have a factory near me. Even if they did, I'd still probably have to take the packaging with me. Yes you would. Whats so bad about that? Recycle if you want. Or not, that IS a option you have. I think we need better recycling laws. Dumps should be recycling centers each and every one. Only the absolute worst stuff should be tossed forever and even that should be solved.. Take care all, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Hakan Falk wrote: It is the most wasteful people on the earth, by no comparison. 4+% of the world population, who uses 25% of the world resources. It is not a question of insult, it is the sad truth. To hide behind a hypocritical emotion about insult, instead of put an end to the unfair and irresponsible waste of resources. I know that you want to do something about it, otherwise you would not be on this list, but defending your fellow Americans? Hakan Ive heard this for some time. No one has yet been able to show me the study that says we use 25% of the world resources. Please show me where we use 25% of the water, land, air, crude, electricity, sunlight, tree's, twinkies, hamburgers, milk, rice, rubber, cotton, whiskey, children born (by day, month and year), minerals (all of them) and anything else I missed. I truely want to see a report on each one of these (and others). Jeormie ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
with the rising cost of oil these will eventually become valuable resources, Its also only a matter of time before we start mining our rubbish dumps! There's also a French company i saw on Beyond 2000, it had to do with turning tires back into its raw components. once again once bought back, it cost more to process than the end products where worth. But not once economic realities hit home, which they will inevitably do, with increased force the longer it's put off. Environmental cost accounting, carbon accounting, the precautionary principle, the polluter pays principle are all on the table and won't go away, no matter how neo-liberal economists bend theories and the world with it. The days of externalising costs are numbered. As far as recycling is concerned, about the only thing we recycle really well is gold. Funny that, it's not as if it were exactly the most useful stuff there is. I believe you can make a high-explosive out of it, but it's seldom used for some reason. We shall have to learn to use, recycle and re-use everything as carefully as we use gold. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom Irwin Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:07 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message Hi Hakan and all, One of the real problems is not having an economic system that accounts for the lack of degradability or environmental consequences of products produced. *We* do have one, but *they* don't use it. Yet. Best wishes Keith This is a world wide problem not limited to the U.S. More than 10 years ago I worked on a research team to make a biodegradable plastic. We accomplished this and had formulations that worked in most plastic processing equipment. Of course, polyethylene was $0.26 per pound and our formulations were about a dollar more per pound. We had a wonderful niche market product that couldn´t support us. The same is true for PET. There´s a company that I worked for that holds a patent for recycling waste PET chemically back to original components, bottles from bottles with no residual contamination. Transportation costs of the light plastics kill this one. Many industries have solutions but they are not economical with the present low cost of the plastics they would replace or recycle. Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Sorry...need more coffee...previous post should read...Europe has plunged every generation into war WITHOUT US help... Robert -- Original Message -- From: radema [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 06:36:37 -0600 With all due respect, The USA is a highly visible consumer. Their arrogance and might is right policies are a natural target. We would be remiss to forget their considerable humanitarian contribution (no not war). Europe has plunged every generation into war with US help. Not only is the US an engine for profits, but their trust laws are far stricter than Japan (MITI), China, Middle East, South America, SE Asia, Balkans, or the EU. When the new world order takes place - and I agree it will as manufacturing capacity moves offshore - we will see super-power consumers (China, India) that DO NOT HAVE trust laws. Robert -- Original Message -- From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:58:26 +0200 Hi Tom and Bede, Maybe the coming oil crises will be a blessing for our earth. Because the moment oil is no loner available, we have to produce fuel and plastics etc. from other sources. If all playing on a level field, the possibilities are more equal and the wealth will be more distributed. US had the advantage to be the first oil economy and that the large oil resources have been in less populated countries, which could be developed by US interests. Next step will be a development of the coal resources and US, Russia and China have maybe 70% of known resources and this time US will not be able to manipulate. Since the coal will be expensive, the rest of the world will be competing with renewable agriculture based alternatives on more equal terms. To have any kind of possibilities to survive, coal has to carry large cost for sequestering of polluting chemicals and gases. This especially if the hydrogen economy becomes a reality. The handling of nuclear waste will be a minor problem, compared with what the future generations will face The wealth and powers to be, will have a totally different structure than today and none of us can really imagine how the future will look. We will not participate in this future, but our attitudes and work of today, will be of utmost importance. It is now that we can effect the outcome and if we do not take Global warming and other things very serious, our future generations will carry the punishment. It is no risks of that we can be to cautious and careful, because it will be a possibility to sustain the future if we follow this principles anyway. The world is probably on the edge and it does not take much to tip the balance towards disasters. Nothing will be able to solve without a strict energy efficiency, which also will be the best economical regime. It is amazing that US is using 3 times and Canada 4 times more energy in their buildings, than Sweden does. This after climate corrections. With dirt cheap oil, it was expensive, but with todays oil prices, it has become very economical. This is also something that cannot be occupied by military force and is closer to sustainable. Hakan At 12:29 07/10/2005, you wrote: with the rising cost of oil these will eventually become valuable resources, Its also only a matter of time before we start mining our rubbish dumps! There's also a French company i saw on Beyond 2000, it had to do with turning tires back into its raw components. once again once bought back, it cost more to process than the end products where worth. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom Irwin Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:07 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message Hi Hakan and all, One of the real problems is not having an economic system that accounts for the lack of degradability or environmental consequences of products produced. This is a world wide problem not limited to the U.S. More than 10 years ago I worked on a research team to make a biodegradable plastic. We accomplished this and had formulations that worked in most plastic processing equipment. Of course, polyethylene was $0.26 per pound and our formulations were about a dollar more per pound. We had a wonderful niche market product that couldn´t support us. The same is true for PET. There´s a company that I worked for that holds a patent for recycling waste PET chemically back to original components, bottles from bottles with no residual contamination. Transportation costs of the light plastics kill this one. Many industries have solutions but they are not economical with the present low cost of the plastics they would replace or recycle. Tom Irwin
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
If only. We here in US don't seem to learn very quickly. Hi Tom and Bede, Maybe the coming oil crises will be a blessing for our earth. Because the moment oil is no loner available, we have to produce fuel and plastics etc. from other sources. If all playing on a level field, the possibilities are more equal and the wealth will be more distributed. US had the advantage to be the first oil economy and that the large oil resources have been in less populated countries, which could be developed by US interests. Next step will be a development of the coal resources and US, Russia and China have maybe 70% of known resources and this time US will not be able to manipulate. Since the coal will be expensive, the rest of the world will be competing with renewable agriculture based alternatives on more equal terms. To have any kind of possibilities to survive, coal has to carry large cost for sequestering of polluting chemicals and gases. This especially if the hydrogen economy becomes a reality. The handling of nuclear waste will be a minor problem, compared with what the future generations will face The wealth and powers to be, will have a totally different structure than today and none of us can really imagine how the future will look. We will not participate in this future, but our attitudes and work of today, will be of utmost importance. It is now that we can effect the outcome and if we do not take Global warming and other things very serious, our future generations will carry the punishment. It is no risks of that we can be to cautious and careful, because it will be a possibility to sustain the future if we follow this principles anyway. The world is probably on the edge and it does not take much to tip the balance towards disasters. Nothing will be able to solve without a strict energy efficiency, which also will be the best economical regime. It is amazing that US is using 3 times and Canada 4 times more energy in their buildings, than Sweden does. This after climate corrections. With dirt cheap oil, it was expensive, but with todays oil prices, it has become very economical. This is also something that cannot be occupied by military force and is closer to sustainable. Hakan At 12:29 07/10/2005, you wrote: with the rising cost of oil these will eventually become valuable resources, Its also only a matter of time before we start mining our rubbish dumps! There's also a French company i saw on Beyond 2000, it had to do with turning tires back into its raw components. once again once bought back, it cost more to process than the end products where worth. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom Irwin Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:07 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message Hi Hakan and all, One of the real problems is not having an economic system that accounts for the lack of degradability or environmental consequences of products produced. This is a world wide problem not limited to the U.S. More than 10 years ago I worked on a research team to make a biodegradable plastic. We accomplished this and had formulations that worked in most plastic processing equipment. Of course, polyethylene was $0.26 per pound and our formulations were about a dollar more per pound. We had a wonderful niche market product that couldn´t support us. The same is true for PET. There´s a company that I worked for that holds a patent for recycling waste PET chemically back to original components, bottles from bottles with no residual contamination. Transportation costs of the light plastics kill this one. Many industries have solutions but they are not economical with the present low cost of the plastics they would replace or recycle. Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
With all due respect, The USA is a highly visible consumer. Their arrogance and might is right policies are a natural target. We would be remiss to forget their considerable humanitarian contribution (no not war). Europe has plunged every generation into war with US help. Not only is the US an engine for profits, but their trust laws are far stricter than Japan (MITI), China, Middle East, South America, SE Asia, Balkans, or the EU. When the new world order takes place - and I agree it will as manufacturing capacity moves offshore - we will see super-power consumers (China, India) that DO NOT HAVE trust laws. Robert -- Original Message -- From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:58:26 +0200 Hi Tom and Bede, Maybe the coming oil crises will be a blessing for our earth. Because the moment oil is no loner available, we have to produce fuel and plastics etc. from other sources. If all playing on a level field, the possibilities are more equal and the wealth will be more distributed. US had the advantage to be the first oil economy and that the large oil resources have been in less populated countries, which could be developed by US interests. Next step will be a development of the coal resources and US, Russia and China have maybe 70% of known resources and this time US will not be able to manipulate. Since the coal will be expensive, the rest of the world will be competing with renewable agriculture based alternatives on more equal terms. To have any kind of possibilities to survive, coal has to carry large cost for sequestering of polluting chemicals and gases. This especially if the hydrogen economy becomes a reality. The handling of nuclear waste will be a minor problem, compared with what the future generations will face The wealth and powers to be, will have a totally different structure than today and none of us can really imagine how the future will look. We will not participate in this future, but our attitudes and work of today, will be of utmost importance. It is now that we can effect the outcome and if we do not take Global warming and other things very serious, our future generations will carry the punishment. It is no risks of that we can be to cautious and careful, because it will be a possibility to sustain the future if we follow this principles anyway. The world is probably on the edge and it does not take much to tip the balance towards disasters. Nothing will be able to solve without a strict energy efficiency, which also will be the best economical regime. It is amazing that US is using 3 times and Canada 4 times more energy in their buildings, than Sweden does. This after climate corrections. With dirt cheap oil, it was expensive, but with todays oil prices, it has become very economical. This is also something that cannot be occupied by military force and is closer to sustainable. Hakan At 12:29 07/10/2005, you wrote: with the rising cost of oil these will eventually become valuable resources, Its also only a matter of time before we start mining our rubbish dumps! There's also a French company i saw on Beyond 2000, it had to do with turning tires back into its raw components. once again once bought back, it cost more to process than the end products where worth. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom Irwin Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:07 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message Hi Hakan and all, One of the real problems is not having an economic system that accounts for the lack of degradability or environmental consequences of products produced. This is a world wide problem not limited to the U.S. More than 10 years ago I worked on a research team to make a biodegradable plastic. We accomplished this and had formulations that worked in most plastic processing equipment. Of course, polyethylene was $0.26 per pound and our formulations were about a dollar more per pound. We had a wonderful niche market product that couldn´t support us. The same is true for PET. There´s a company that I worked for that holds a patent for recycling waste PET chemically back to original components, bottles from bottles with no residual contamination. Transportation costs of the light plastics kill this one. Many industries have solutions but they are not economical with the present low cost of the plastics they would replace or recycle. Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Jeromie, I thought that we talked about energy on this list and especially oil. In that case you can go to http://www.bp.com and look at their statistic and reporting, it is regarded as reliable source and generally accepted. You can also look at the works of ASPO or Matt Simmon's on oil depletion. Regarding other resources and data, you will find a lot in the UN statistic on Human Development Resource Index.. This and a lot more is also to find in biofuels archive, since many members have posted very sincere opinions and good info. . Reading you post, I do not expect that you will put in a lot of work in this, but if you do, we can continue the discussion. Hakan At 10:47 07/10/2005, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: It is the most wasteful people on the earth, by no comparison. 4+% of the world population, who uses 25% of the world resources. It is not a question of insult, it is the sad truth. To hide behind a hypocritical emotion about insult, instead of put an end to the unfair and irresponsible waste of resources. I know that you want to do something about it, otherwise you would not be on this list, but defending your fellow Americans? Hakan Ive heard this for some time. No one has yet been able to show me the study that says we use 25% of the world resources. Please show me where we use 25% of the water, land, air, crude, electricity, sunlight, tree's, twinkies, hamburgers, milk, rice, rubber, cotton, whiskey, children born (by day, month and year), minerals (all of them) and anything else I missed. I truely want to see a report on each one of these (and others). Jeormie ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Robert, I do not understand what you mean by trust laws. If you mean the anti trust laws, Reagan got rid of them, during his presidency. Before that, US had this 70% rule to protect consumers from being dependent of a monopoly source. Hakan At 14:36 07/10/2005, you wrote: With all due respect, The USA is a highly visible consumer. Their arrogance and might is right policies are a natural target. We would be remiss to forget their considerable humanitarian contribution (no not war). Europe has plunged every generation into war with US help. Not only is the US an engine for profits, but their trust laws are far stricter than Japan (MITI), China, Middle East, South America, SE Asia, Balkans, or the EU. When the new world order takes place - and I agree it will as manufacturing capacity moves offshore - we will see super-power consumers (China, India) that DO NOT HAVE trust laws. Robert -- Original Message -- From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:58:26 +0200 Hi Tom and Bede, Maybe the coming oil crises will be a blessing for our earth. Because the moment oil is no loner available, we have to produce fuel and plastics etc. from other sources. If all playing on a level field, the possibilities are more equal and the wealth will be more distributed. US had the advantage to be the first oil economy and that the large oil resources have been in less populated countries, which could be developed by US interests. Next step will be a development of the coal resources and US, Russia and China have maybe 70% of known resources and this time US will not be able to manipulate. Since the coal will be expensive, the rest of the world will be competing with renewable agriculture based alternatives on more equal terms. To have any kind of possibilities to survive, coal has to carry large cost for sequestering of polluting chemicals and gases. This especially if the hydrogen economy becomes a reality. The handling of nuclear waste will be a minor problem, compared with what the future generations will face The wealth and powers to be, will have a totally different structure than today and none of us can really imagine how the future will look. We will not participate in this future, but our attitudes and work of today, will be of utmost importance. It is now that we can effect the outcome and if we do not take Global warming and other things very serious, our future generations will carry the punishment. It is no risks of that we can be to cautious and careful, because it will be a possibility to sustain the future if we follow this principles anyway. The world is probably on the edge and it does not take much to tip the balance towards disasters. Nothing will be able to solve without a strict energy efficiency, which also will be the best economical regime. It is amazing that US is using 3 times and Canada 4 times more energy in their buildings, than Sweden does. This after climate corrections. With dirt cheap oil, it was expensive, but with todays oil prices, it has become very economical. This is also something that cannot be occupied by military force and is closer to sustainable. Hakan At 12:29 07/10/2005, you wrote: with the rising cost of oil these will eventually become valuable resources, Its also only a matter of time before we start mining our rubbish dumps! There's also a French company i saw on Beyond 2000, it had to do with turning tires back into its raw components. once again once bought back, it cost more to process than the end products where worth. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom Irwin Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:07 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message Hi Hakan and all, One of the real problems is not having an economic system that accounts for the lack of degradability or environmental consequences of products produced. This is a world wide problem not limited to the U.S. More than 10 years ago I worked on a research team to make a biodegradable plastic. We accomplished this and had formulations that worked in most plastic processing equipment. Of course, polyethylene was $0.26 per pound and our formulations were about a dollar more per pound. We had a wonderful niche market product that couldn´t support us. The same is true for PET. There´s a company that I worked for that holds a patent for recycling waste PET chemically back to original components, bottles from bottles with no residual contamination. Transportation costs of the light plastics kill this one. Many industries have solutions but they are not economical with the present low cost of the plastics they would replace or recycle. Tom Irwin
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Robert, You were right before, now you got it wrong. Now I have to ask you to read up on the world wars and the influence from the US finance powers. Iraq was plunged into the Iranian war by US and was not really successful, so the US occupation got rid of a failing leader. You are right in that before US took over the role as manipulator, the French was involved in a lot of wars. Hakan At 15:28 07/10/2005, you wrote: Sorry...need more coffee...previous post should read...Europe has plunged every generation into war WITHOUT US help... Robert -- Original Message -- From: radema [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 06:36:37 -0600 With all due respect, The USA is a highly visible consumer. Their arrogance and might is right policies are a natural target. We would be remiss to forget their considerable humanitarian contribution (no not war). Europe has plunged every generation into war with US help. Not only is the US an engine for profits, but their trust laws are far stricter than Japan (MITI), China, Middle East, South America, SE Asia, Balkans, or the EU. When the new world order takes place - and I agree it will as manufacturing capacity moves offshore - we will see super-power consumers (China, India) that DO NOT HAVE trust laws. Robert -- Original Message -- From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:58:26 +0200 Hi Tom and Bede, Maybe the coming oil crises will be a blessing for our earth. Because the moment oil is no loner available, we have to produce fuel and plastics etc. from other sources. If all playing on a level field, the possibilities are more equal and the wealth will be more distributed. US had the advantage to be the first oil economy and that the large oil resources have been in less populated countries, which could be developed by US interests. Next step will be a development of the coal resources and US, Russia and China have maybe 70% of known resources and this time US will not be able to manipulate. Since the coal will be expensive, the rest of the world will be competing with renewable agriculture based alternatives on more equal terms. To have any kind of possibilities to survive, coal has to carry large cost for sequestering of polluting chemicals and gases. This especially if the hydrogen economy becomes a reality. The handling of nuclear waste will be a minor problem, compared with what the future generations will face The wealth and powers to be, will have a totally different structure than today and none of us can really imagine how the future will look. We will not participate in this future, but our attitudes and work of today, will be of utmost importance. It is now that we can effect the outcome and if we do not take Global warming and other things very serious, our future generations will carry the punishment. It is no risks of that we can be to cautious and careful, because it will be a possibility to sustain the future if we follow this principles anyway. The world is probably on the edge and it does not take much to tip the balance towards disasters. Nothing will be able to solve without a strict energy efficiency, which also will be the best economical regime. It is amazing that US is using 3 times and Canada 4 times more energy in their buildings, than Sweden does. This after climate corrections. With dirt cheap oil, it was expensive, but with todays oil prices, it has become very economical. This is also something that cannot be occupied by military force and is closer to sustainable. Hakan At 12:29 07/10/2005, you wrote: with the rising cost of oil these will eventually become valuable resources, Its also only a matter of time before we start mining our rubbish dumps! There's also a French company i saw on Beyond 2000, it had to do with turning tires back into its raw components. once again once bought back, it cost more to process than the end products where worth. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom Irwin Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:07 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message Hi Hakan and all, One of the real problems is not having an economic system that accounts for the lack of degradability or environmental consequences of products produced. This is a world wide problem not limited to the U.S. More than 10 years ago I worked on a research team to make a biodegradable plastic. We accomplished this and had formulations that worked in most plastic processing equipment. Of course, polyethylene was $0.26 per pound and our formulations were about a dollar more per pound. We had a wonderful
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
This is so true, and the flip side is that even if we were to get really serious about recycling, it is still only the third R of the three R's Reduce Re-use and Recycle. The area where I live was the first in Canada (maybe north america?) to institute a blue box recycling program for housholds in the municipality. But for me personnaly it took several years before I began to consider what it means to recycle. None of my neighbors have really caught on yet either. I would put cardboard, tin cans, and plastic bottles in the bin but everything else went in the garbage. Our family of 4 would typically have two garbage cans full and half a box of recyclables every week. Then I began one day to just look at what was in my hand on the way to the garbage can each time and it started to change. Every peice of paper, envelopes, scraps, junk mail, kleenex tissues etc. everything made of plastic, glass and metal, bottles, bottle caps, tie wraps, insulation from electrical wires, packaging materials, used plastic wrap and ziplock bags, aluminum foil wrap etc. I would find myself turning around and heading to the recycle station instead of the garbage. Then it changed to two recycle boxes at the curb and one half filled garbage can. Now I am reforming myself again and re-thinking a lot of stuff to do with the first two R's like why did I buy things like kleenex tissues, and paper towels when a hanky and rag would do just like they used to in days gone by and all they need it a wash and re-use? Why did I buy rolls of scotch tape made with disposable plastic dispenser? Sure it can be recycled but my trusty metal desk top tape dispenser only requires that I change the roll when it runs out. Ziplock bags can be washed and re-used. I try to buy things that are meant to last now. What did it take to bring about this change in me? It only took a willingness to consider things and an acceptance of the loss of convenience. It seems that this is a very hard thing for many people to do though. The expansionist economic system on which our society is based is such a well oiled machine that it is more than a little demoralizing at times to consider just how hard it is to apply the brakes. People are so well controlled and indoctrinated into the rules of the game that I fear that nothing short of some catastrophe will initiate the change. Maybe he is right. Maybe a global energy crisis will be a blessing in disguise. You know the old saying no pain, no gain it is so sad but true nontheless. Joe As far as recycling is concerned, about the only thing we recycle really well is gold. Funny that, it's not as if it were exactly the most useful stuff there is. I believe you can make a high-explosive out of it, but it's seldom used for some reason. We shall have to learn to use, recycle and re-use everything as carefully as we use gold. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Hakan Falk a écrit : Robert, You were right before, now you got it wrong. Now I have to ask you to read up on the world wars and the influence from the US finance powers. Iraq was plunged into the Iranian war by US and was not really successful, so the US occupation got rid of a failing leader. You are right in that before US took over the role as manipulator, the French was involved in a lot of wars. Hakan absolutly. French has first support Iran (lend and borrow money, sold weapons, helped iranian nuclear research, while protecting Khomeiny near Paris) Then helped Irak in it's war against Iran until both became weak enough. French technicians helped to build the Irak nuclear plant Osirak, and just before it was achieved, french let a caravan as a signal just front of the tunnel to reactor heart few hours before Israelian air force launched a guided bomb. France, so called human right country, is known to be fully or partly responsible of many dirty things, especially in Africa. Frantz sometimes not very proud to be french ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Hakan Thanks for the input, its appreciated. In response: The Japanese Government targets a specific industry and supports the top few competitors. Internally the mega structures are Kieretsu-based (thank you MacArthur -a man with far too much glory for his skill level). The Allies needed a station near China and USSR so Japan was allowed to morph the zaibatsu into the kieretsu (Mitsumi,Sumitomo,Mitsubishi). They have stakes in every major and mid-level university doing RD in the US. The Koeans favour the Chaebol, the equivalent of the Japanese Kieritsu - Hyundai,LG, SK Group, Samsung. The Chinese strong-arm their spend - ie. GE had three light bulb mfg competitors in China when it started negotiations to build a mfg plant there. Three years later when they got approval they had 2000. Cisco set up a second world headquarters in China. US Congressional approval (excluding COTS -commercial off the shelf) requires multiple (three I believe) quotes. While the US President may favour no-let contarcts (KBR), on balance the US does not allow business to conduct itself through price manipulation or collusion: ADM, Eliot Spicer targets, FANNIE MAE, FREDDIE MAC. Unfortunately a multi-national is not hampered by geo-politics. Who do you think owns India (Union Carbide or IBM). I'm not talking about invisible counter-intuitive policies - e.g. US DEA wants to kill a Golden Triangle general and the US State department supports him due to geography. I also agree that there is a concentration of power internationally - http://www.oligopolywatch.com/2005/06/15.html But I do have to ask you to look at European and European colonialism in 30 year cycles. Robert -- Original Message -- From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:02:33 +0200 Robert, I do not understand what you mean by trust laws. If you mean the anti trust laws, Reagan got rid of them, during his presidency. Before that, US had this 70% rule to protect consumers from being dependent of a monopoly source. Hakan At 14:36 07/10/2005, you wrote: With all due respect, The USA is a highly visible consumer. Their arrogance and might is right policies are a natural target. We would be remiss to forget their considerable humanitarian contribution (no not war). Europe has plunged every generation into war with US help. Not only is the US an engine for profits, but their trust laws are far stricter than Japan (MITI), China, Middle East, South America, SE Asia, Balkans, or the EU. When the new world order takes place - and I agree it will as manufacturing capacity moves offshore - we will see super-power consumers (China, India) that DO NOT HAVE trust laws. Robert -- Original Message -- From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:58:26 +0200 Hi Tom and Bede, Maybe the coming oil crises will be a blessing for our earth. Because the moment oil is no loner available, we have to produce fuel and plastics etc. from other sources. If all playing on a level field, the possibilities are more equal and the wealth will be more distributed. US had the advantage to be the first oil economy and that the large oil resources have been in less populated countries, which could be developed by US interests. Next step will be a development of the coal resources and US, Russia and China have maybe 70% of known resources and this time US will not be able to manipulate. Since the coal will be expensive, the rest of the world will be competing with renewable agriculture based alternatives on more equal terms. To have any kind of possibilities to survive, coal has to carry large cost for sequestering of polluting chemicals and gases. This especially if the hydrogen economy becomes a reality. The handling of nuclear waste will be a minor problem, compared with what the future generations will face The wealth and powers to be, will have a totally different structure than today and none of us can really imagine how the future will look. We will not participate in this future, but our attitudes and work of today, will be of utmost importance. It is now that we can effect the outcome and if we do not take Global warming and other things very serious, our future generations will carry the punishment. It is no risks of that we can be to cautious and careful, because it will be a possibility to sustain the future if we follow this principles anyway. The world is probably on the edge and it does not take much to tip the balance towards disasters. Nothing will be able to solve without a strict energy efficiency, which also will be the best economical regime. It is amazing that US is using 3 times and Canada 4 times more energy in their buildings, than Sweden does. This after climate
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Sorry...need more coffee...previous post should read...Europe has plunged every generation into war WITHOUT US help... Except this generation and the last one, which the US have plunged into war all over the world all by itself, though they haven't been the only ones it's true. I think you got it more right the first time. Best wishes Keith Robert -- Original Message -- From: radema [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 06:36:37 -0600 With all due respect, The USA is a highly visible consumer. Their arrogance and might is right policies are a natural target. We would be remiss to forget their considerable humanitarian contribution (no not war). Europe has plunged every generation into war with US help. Not only is the US an engine for profits, but their trust laws are far stricter than Japan (MITI), China, Middle East, South America, SE Asia, Balkans, or the EU. When the new world order takes place - and I agree it will as manufacturing capacity moves offshore - we will see super-power consumers (China, India) that DO NOT HAVE trust laws. Robert -- Original Message -- From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:58:26 +0200 Hi Tom and Bede, Maybe the coming oil crises will be a blessing for our earth. Because the moment oil is no loner available, we have to produce fuel and plastics etc. from other sources. If all playing on a level field, the possibilities are more equal and the wealth will be more distributed. US had the advantage to be the first oil economy and that the large oil resources have been in less populated countries, which could be developed by US interests. Next step will be a development of the coal resources and US, Russia and China have maybe 70% of known resources and this time US will not be able to manipulate. Since the coal will be expensive, the rest of the world will be competing with renewable agriculture based alternatives on more equal terms. To have any kind of possibilities to survive, coal has to carry large cost for sequestering of polluting chemicals and gases. This especially if the hydrogen economy becomes a reality. The handling of nuclear waste will be a minor problem, compared with what the future generations will face The wealth and powers to be, will have a totally different structure than today and none of us can really imagine how the future will look. We will not participate in this future, but our attitudes and work of today, will be of utmost importance. It is now that we can effect the outcome and if we do not take Global warming and other things very serious, our future generations will carry the punishment. It is no risks of that we can be to cautious and careful, because it will be a possibility to sustain the future if we follow this principles anyway. The world is probably on the edge and it does not take much to tip the balance towards disasters. Nothing will be able to solve without a strict energy efficiency, which also will be the best economical regime. It is amazing that US is using 3 times and Canada 4 times more energy in their buildings, than Sweden does. This after climate corrections. With dirt cheap oil, it was expensive, but with todays oil prices, it has become very economical. This is also something that cannot be occupied by military force and is closer to sustainable. Hakan At 12:29 07/10/2005, you wrote: with the rising cost of oil these will eventually become valuable resources, Its also only a matter of time before we start mining our rubbish dumps! There's also a French company i saw on Beyond 2000, it had to do with turning tires back into its raw components. once again once bought back, it cost more to process than the end products where worth. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom Irwin Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:07 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message Hi Hakan and all, One of the real problems is not having an economic system that accounts for the lack of degradability or environmental consequences of products produced. This is a world wide problem not limited to the U.S. More than 10 years ago I worked on a research team to make a biodegradable plastic. We accomplished this and had formulations that worked in most plastic processing equipment. Of course, polyethylene was $0.26 per pound and our formulations were about a dollar more per pound. We had a wonderful niche market product that couldn´t support us. The same is true for PET. There´s a company that I worked for that holds a patent for recycling waste PET chemically back to original components, bottles from bottles with no
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Sorry all, I have to stand by my statement. Attached is a list of the top 20 wars in terms of military dead sonce WW1. 1 20,000,000 Second World War1937-45 2 8,500,000 First World War 1914-18 3 1,200,000 Korean War 1950-53 4 1,200,000 Chinese Civil War 1945-49 5 1,200,000 Vietnam War 1965-73 6 850,000 Iran-Iraq War 1980-88 7 800,000 Russian Civil War 1918-21 8 400,000 Chinese Civil War 1927-37 9 385,000 French Indochina1945-54 10 200,000 Mexican Revolution 1911-20 11 200,000 Spanish Civil War 1936-39 12 160,000 French-Algerian War 1954-62 13 150,000 Afghanistan 1980-89 14 130,000 Russo-Japanese War 1904-05 15 100,000 Riffian War 1921-26 16 100,000 First Sudanese Civil War1956-72 17 100,000 Russo-Polish War1919-20 18 100,000 Biafran War 1967-70 19 90,000 Chaco War 1932-35 20 75,000 Abyssinian War 1935-36 Regards, Robert -- Original Message -- From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 02:12:35 +0900 Sorry...need more coffee...previous post should read...Europe has plunged every generation into war WITHOUT US help... Except this generation and the last one, which the US have plunged into war all over the world all by itself, though they haven't been the only ones it's true. I think you got it more right the first time. Best wishes Keith Robert -- Original Message -- From: radema [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 06:36:37 -0600 With all due respect, The USA is a highly visible consumer. Their arrogance and might is right policies are a natural target. We would be remiss to forget their considerable humanitarian contribution (no not war). Europe has plunged every generation into war with US help. Not only is the US an engine for profits, but their trust laws are far stricter than Japan (MITI), China, Middle East, South America, SE Asia, Balkans, or the EU. When the new world order takes place - and I agree it will as manufacturing capacity moves offshore - we will see super-power consumers (China, India) that DO NOT HAVE trust laws. Robert -- Original Message -- From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:58:26 +0200 Hi Tom and Bede, Maybe the coming oil crises will be a blessing for our earth. Because the moment oil is no loner available, we have to produce fuel and plastics etc. from other sources. If all playing on a level field, the possibilities are more equal and the wealth will be more distributed. US had the advantage to be the first oil economy and that the large oil resources have been in less populated countries, which could be developed by US interests. Next step will be a development of the coal resources and US, Russia and China have maybe 70% of known resources and this time US will not be able to manipulate. Since the coal will be expensive, the rest of the world will be competing with renewable agriculture based alternatives on more equal terms. To have any kind of possibilities to survive, coal has to carry large cost for sequestering of polluting chemicals and gases. This especially if the hydrogen economy becomes a reality. The handling of nuclear waste will be a minor problem, compared with what the future generations will face The wealth and powers to be, will have a totally different structure than today and none of us can really imagine how the future will look. We will not participate in this future, but our attitudes and work of today, will be of utmost importance. It is now that we can effect the outcome and if we do not take Global warming and other things very serious, our future generations will carry the punishment. It is no risks of that we can be to cautious and careful, because it will be a possibility to sustain the future if we follow this principles anyway. The world is probably on the edge and it does not take much to tip the balance towards disasters. Nothing will be able to solve without a strict energy efficiency, which also will be the best economical regime. It is amazing that US is using 3 times and Canada 4 times more energy in their buildings, than Sweden does. This after climate corrections. With dirt cheap oil, it was expensive, but with todays oil prices, it has become very economical. This is also something that cannot be occupied by military force and is closer to sustainable.
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Hello Robert Sorry all, I have to stand by my statement. Attached is a list of the top 20 wars in terms of military dead sonce WW1. 1 20,000,000 Second World War1937-45 2 8,500,000 First World War 1914-18 3 1,200,000 Korean War 1950-53 4 1,200,000 Chinese Civil War 1945-49 5 1,200,000 Vietnam War 1965-73 6 850,000 Iran-Iraq War 1980-88 7 800,000 Russian Civil War 1918-21 8 400,000 Chinese Civil War 1927-37 9 385,000 French Indochina1945-54 10 200,000 Mexican Revolution 1911-20 11 200,000 Spanish Civil War 1936-39 12 160,000 French-Algerian War 1954-62 13 150,000 Afghanistan 1980-89 14 130,000 Russo-Japanese War 1904-05 15 100,000 Riffian War 1921-26 16 100,000 First Sudanese Civil War1956-72 17 100,000 Russo-Polish War1919-20 18 100,000 Biafran War 1967-70 19 90,000 Chaco War 1932-35 20 75,000 Abyssinian War 1935-36 Regards, Robert Hm. Paltry list. I think you're standing on a lot of thin air. You left these out, for instance - Bill Blum's little collection, or part of it: 1. China - 1945 to 1960s: Was Mao Tse-tung just paranoid? 2. Italy - 1947-1948: Free elections, Hollywood style 3. Greece - 1947 to early 1950s: From cradle of democracy to client state 4. The Philippines - 1940s and 1950s: America's oldest colony 5. Korea - 1945-1953: Was it all that it appeared to be? 6. Albania - 1949-1953: The proper English spy 7. Eastern Europe - 1948-1956: Operation Splinter Factor 8. Germany - 1950s: Everything from juvenile delinquency to terrorism 9. Iran - 1953: Making it safe for the King of Kings 10. Guatemala - 1953-1954: While the world watched 11. Costa Rica - Mid-1950s: Trying to topple an ally - Part 1 12. Syria - 1956-1957: Purchasing a new government 13. Middle East - 1957-1958: The Eisenhower Doctrine claims another backyard for America 14. Indonesia - 1957-1958: War and pornography 15. Western Europe - 1950s and 1960s: Fronts within fronts within fronts 16. British Guiana - 1953-1964: The CIA's international labor mafia 17. Soviet Union - Late 1940s to 1960s: From spy planes to book publishing 18. Italy - 1950s to 1970s: Supporting the Cardinal's orphans and techno-fascism 19. Vietnam - 1950-1973: The Hearts and Minds Circus 20. Cambodia - 1955-1973: Prince Sihanouk walks the high-wire of neutralism 21. Laos - 1957-1973: L'Armée Clandestine 22. Haiti - 1959-1963: The Marines land, again 23. Guatemala - 1960: One good coup deserves another 24. France/Algeria - 1960s: L'état, c'est la CIA 25. Ecuador - 1960-1963: A text book of dirty tricks 26. The Congo - 1960-1964: The assassination of Patrice Lumumba 27. Brazil - 1961-1964: Introducing the marvelous new world of death squads 28. Peru - 1960-1965: Fort Bragg moves to the jungle 29. Dominican Republic - 1960-1966: Saving democracy from communism by getting rid of democracy 30. Cuba - 1959 to 1980s: The unforgivable revolution 31. Indonesia - 1965: Liquidating President Sukarno ... and 500,000 others East Timor - 1975: And 200,000 more 32. Ghana - 1966: Kwame Nkrumah steps out of line 33. Uruguay - 1964-1970: Torture -- as American as apple pie 34. Chile - 1964-1973: A hammer and sickle stamped on your child's forehead 35. Greece - 1964-1974: Fuck your Parliament and your Constitution, said the President of the United States 36. Bolivia - 1964-1975: Tracking down Che Guevara in the land of coup d'etat 37. Guatemala - 1962 to 1980s: A less publicized final solution 38. Costa Rica - 1970-1971: Trying to topple an ally -- Part 2 39. Iraq - 1972-1975: Covert action should not be confused with missionary work 40. Australia - 1973-1975: Another free election bites the dust 41. Angola - 1975 to 1980s: The Great Powers Poker Game 42. Zaire - 1975-1978: Mobutu and the CIA, a marriage made in heaven 43. Jamaica - 1976-1980: Kissinger's ultimatum 44. Seychelles - 1979-1981: Yet another area of great strategic importance 45. Grenada - 1979-1984: Lying -- one of the few growth industries in Washington 46. Morocco - 1983: A video nasty 47. Suriname - 1982-1984: Once again, the Cuban bogeyman 48. Libya - 1981-1989: Ronald Reagan meets his match 49. Nicaragua - 1981-1990: Destabilization in slow motion 50. Panama - 1969-1991: Double-crossing our drug supplier 51. Bulgaria 1990/Albania 1991: Teaching communists what democracy is all about 52. Iraq - 1990-1991: Desert holocaust 53. Afghanistan - 1979-1992: America's Jihad 54. El Salvador - 1980-1994: Human rights, Washington style 55. Haiti - 1986-1994: Who will rid me of this turbulent priest? 56. The American Empire - 1992 to present http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm Killing
Re: [Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
Nice, Joe, thanks! This is so true, and the flip side is that even if we were to get really serious about recycling, it is still only the third R of the three R's Reduce Re-use and Recycle. The area where I live was the first in Canada (maybe north america?) to institute a blue box recycling program for housholds in the municipality. But for me personnaly it took several years before I began to consider what it means to recycle. None of my neighbors have really caught on yet either. I would put cardboard, tin cans, and plastic bottles in the bin but everything else went in the garbage. Our family of 4 would typically have two garbage cans full and half a box of recyclables every week. Then I began one day to just look at what was in my hand on the way to the garbage can each time and it started to change. Every peice of paper, envelopes, scraps, junk mail, kleenex tissues etc. everything made of plastic, glass and metal, bottles, bottle caps, tie wraps, insulation from electrical wires, packaging materials, used plastic wrap and ziplock bags, aluminum foil wrap etc. I would find myself turning around and heading to the recycle station instead of the garbage. Then it changed to two recycle boxes at the curb and one half filled garbage can. Now I am reforming myself again and re-thinking a lot of stuff to do with the first two R's like why did I buy things like kleenex tissues, and paper towels when a hanky and rag would do just like they used to in days gone by and all they need it a wash and re-use? Why did I buy rolls of scotch tape made with disposable plastic dispenser? Sure it can be recycled but my trusty metal desk top tape dispenser only requires that I change the roll when it runs out. Ziplock bags can be washed and re-used. I try to buy things that are meant to last now. What did it take to bring about this change in me? It only took a willingness to consider things and an acceptance of the loss of convenience. It seems that this is a very hard thing for many people to do though. The expansionist economic system on which our society is based is such a well oiled machine that it is more than a little demoralizing at times to consider just how hard it is to apply the brakes. People are so well controlled and indoctrinated into the rules of the game that I fear that nothing short of some catastrophe will initiate the change. Maybe he is right. Maybe a global energy crisis will be a blessing in disguise. Maybe, sad to say. So unnecessary, especially since it looks like a good bet that the poorer countries with no record of fossil-fuel gluttony and addiction are going to pay the brunt of the price for the rich nations' intransigence. Hardly the first time, but I don't think thisn sort of solution can go on just being taken for granted for much longer. Best wishes Keith You know the old saying no pain, no gain it is so sad but true nontheless. Joe As far as recycling is concerned, about the only thing we recycle really well is gold. Funny that, it's not as if it were exactly the most useful stuff there is. I believe you can make a high-explosive out of it, but it's seldom used for some reason. We shall have to learn to use, recycle and re-use everything as carefully as we use gold. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
