RE: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator)
Ernest, it's pretty clear why Todd is missing the point. It's amusing and kinda' sad though. I remember a rant directed at me because I said that voting in federal elections was a waste of time and that change is only possible through local action. Now, he's at it again. I guess his solution is to single-handedly bully our elected officials into passing pro-biofuels legislation. Obviously the best course of action is to offend the people whose opinion or behavior you seek to change; just look at PETA's successful fur-spray-painting campaign. Oh and BTW, IMHO [net acronyms], you're right. The fact that we shuffled off the yoke of English imperialism means that we now have the freedom to delete the letter u from behavior. The language is ours now. -BRAH -Original Message- From: ernest breakfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 2:07 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator) todd, it's clear you're missing the point; what's not clear is why. Appal Energy wrote: Last thing I need Ernest? It's some rocket scientist telling me what I have to say in order to placate/please him or her, i can't speak for Bryan, but i'm certainly not professing to be any Rocket Scientist.;-) (let's hope you don't have an issue with emoticons, too! next thing we know, it's going to be contractions!) Bryans message (as i took it) wasn't about the content or anyone telling you what you have to say; it was to point out that you're going to have a better chance of reaching people if you don't use such a caustic manner. much less the nettiquette police posting their message in acronym shorthand rather than the Queen's english. no police here, and i answer to no Queen... Don't care for the remarks? Don't read 'em. a ridiculous stance, of course, since no-one could know that they don't like something without reading it,... and demonstrates the point that if people don't like the form you're presenting in, they're not going to get the benefit of the message you're trying to share if they ignore the rest of what you have to share based on not liking the form of an earlier message of yours. It gets extremely wasteful and repetetive fighting the same disinformation battles over, and over, and over, and over, and over again, and again, and again, and again, all the while listening to the same old false arguments by the same people who profess to be environmentally inclined and supposedly serving the best interests of others. unfortunately, telling one persons something doesn't always get the message across to them, (as is being evidenced here) and certainly doesn't educate everyone; there are new people that could coming into the discussion that could benefit from what's being shared if they didn't get turned off by having the information presented in a foul manner. nobody's asking you to shut up, rather, what's being suggested is in the hopes that you may be able to reach more people. of course, if you're only intent on spouting off about how stupid everyone else is, there's probably no hope. Horse manure. Try selfish, constipated, technocrats and ingrained bureaucrats more interested in creating roadblocks than in implementing solutions. turning off people who could potential become advocates because of poor form isn't going to help win any of those battles. Those who can't talk, and talk, and talk, and talk, and talk some more. Those who can do. that, of course, doesn't excuse poor form on the part of those who profess to 'do'. here's hoping you have a better day! cheers! e [much snippage] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages
RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator
Guys, please don't waste the money on chemicals converting wvo to biodiesel to burn in a stationary genset. Just heat it up to 120oF, filter it down to ten microns and then burn it directly in the genset using the jacket water to heat the vo up to 200oF for the final burning in the genset. I have over 2000 hours of burning wvo this way and it works excellently. Save the biodiesel process for your Mercedes Turbodiesel. Good luck. -Original Message- From: Friedrich Friesinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:32 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Hi all, with arriving of spring,my project of running my 100KVA Generator with Biodiesel gets closer to be realiced. I am still confused why we should separate the WVO prior to esterification from Water,if by the other hand we should wash the oil after with water (bubblewash) My guess is that esterification will not work well if there is water in the WVO but in washing after dont i saturate my oil again with water? Is it that the Water separates easy after esterification? What about the cleaned out stuff from the bubblewash? does this stuff has to be skinned of from the clean oil or wath happens to it? Lots of questions to be answerd,i still have some times bevor i can start,messing with my oil since the temperatur is still at a chilly 0 to 5 degree C some coaching on my pilotproject would be verry apreciated thanks for any help Fritz - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Has anyone compiled an emission per Kwh (or Mwh) comparison between generation from coal fired power plant, diesel genset on b100, and b100 powered micro-turbines? -Rob At 06:24 PM 4/23/2004 -0500, you wrote: Big difference between being committed to ...exploring clean energy options... and being comitted to implementing them. The latter is where a great deal of optimism is eternally buffered. One is lovely conversation over cocktails. The other is best served up with sweat. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Well, the objectionist I spoke to is very committed to exploring clean energy options, and I have seen them put a lot of their personal money and time where their mouth is. I think they are more optimistic than that as to the advent of H2, and have spoken to some of the professional environmentalists who are against the concept of clean diesel. But in any event, thank you for laying this all out for me, and I will pass it on to those who might benefit from it. I know all this stuff seems obvious to you, but one of the reasons I quoted this person is because his views represent some of those of the more well-intended. He is simply lost in many of the other technological arguments. I think we also saw this when Kerry mentioned clean diesel favorably a year or two ago. Can't think of one environmentally-minded organization or person who spoke in defense of his views. There were probably some. Then he just had to back off. So, the anti-diesel views may rankle you and other knowledgeables, but they are still somewhat widespread and established amongst some Greens. One thing. You write: ... Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's already a given that diesels are more fuel efficient and yield greater torque, cubic inch for cubic inch in comparison to gasoline. ... This has been a lingering question in my mind. There are a couple of reasons for this. I wonder as to the beginning product (crude) and the end product(s) (gasoline, diesel, and other products) and how much energy is used to make them. And then I wonder how we are measuring the power and energy efficiencies of gasoline vs. Diesel generation, as to amounts of either fuel, since they have different mass densities. I'd like to see a comparison of a given mass vs. a given mass, and how much energy either has. I don't know if you'd measure this in moles or pounds-adjusted-to-represent-mass-instead-of-weight or what. As for the use of statiionary diesels such as generators, they are the best targets for clean technologies due to their constant loads - no vast pendulemic swings due to constant swings of fuel loading. This means that they can be dialed into their greatest efficiency level for emissions equipment using a minimum effort and maintenance
Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator
Hi Gene, this is a whole new aspect to run my Gen.The WVO i have at the moment is very clean,but thick.haeting up the Fuel is no problem either.but i can not erford to take a chance to kill my motor!! i need to be shure,is there any input of the Motorexperts? Fritz - Original Message - From: Gene Chaffin To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 1:20 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Guys, please don't waste the money on chemicals converting wvo to biodiesel to burn in a stationary genset. Just heat it up to 120oF, filter it down to ten microns and then burn it directly in the genset using the jacket water to heat the vo up to 200oF for the final burning in the genset. I have over 2000 hours of burning wvo this way and it works excellently. Save the biodiesel process for your Mercedes Turbodiesel. Good luck. -Original Message- From: Friedrich Friesinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:32 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Hi all, with arriving of spring,my project of running my 100KVA Generator with Biodiesel gets closer to be realiced. I am still confused why we should separate the WVO prior to esterification from Water,if by the other hand we should wash the oil after with water (bubblewash) My guess is that esterification will not work well if there is water in the WVO but in washing after dont i saturate my oil again with water? Is it that the Water separates easy after esterification? What about the cleaned out stuff from the bubblewash? does this stuff has to be skinned of from the clean oil or wath happens to it? Lots of questions to be answerd,i still have some times bevor i can start,messing with my oil since the temperatur is still at a chilly 0 to 5 degree C some coaching on my pilotproject would be verry apreciated thanks for any help Fritz - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Has anyone compiled an emission per Kwh (or Mwh) comparison between generation from coal fired power plant, diesel genset on b100, and b100 powered micro-turbines? -Rob At 06:24 PM 4/23/2004 -0500, you wrote: Big difference between being committed to ...exploring clean energy options... and being comitted to implementing them. The latter is where a great deal of optimism is eternally buffered. One is lovely conversation over cocktails. The other is best served up with sweat. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Well, the objectionist I spoke to is very committed to exploring clean energy options, and I have seen them put a lot of their personal money and time where their mouth is. I think they are more optimistic than that as to the advent of H2, and have spoken to some of the professional environmentalists who are against the concept of clean diesel. But in any event, thank you for laying this all out for me, and I will pass it on to those who might benefit from it. I know all this stuff seems obvious to you, but one of the reasons I quoted this person is because his views represent some of those of the more well-intended. He is simply lost in many of the other technological arguments. I think we also saw this when Kerry mentioned clean diesel favorably a year or two ago. Can't think of one environmentally-minded organization or person who spoke in defense of his views. There were probably some. Then he just had to back off. So, the anti-diesel views may rankle you and other knowledgeables, but they are still somewhat widespread and established amongst some Greens. One thing. You write: ... Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's already a given that diesels are more fuel efficient and yield greater torque, cubic inch for cubic inch in comparison to gasoline. ... This has been a lingering question in my mind. There are a couple of reasons for this. I wonder as to the beginning product (crude) and the end product(s) (gasoline, diesel, and other products) and how much energy is used to make them. And then I wonder how we are measuring the power and energy efficiencies of gasoline vs. Diesel generation, as to amounts of either fuel, since
Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator
Hi Gene, this is a whole new aspect to run my Gen.The WVO i have at the moment is very clean,but thick.haeting up the Fuel is no problem either.but i can not erford to take a chance to kill my motor!! i need to be shure,is there any input of the Motorexperts? Fritz Hi Fritz What kind of motor is it? You said 100KVA, what else? New or old? Direct injection or indirect injection? An old Lister-type diesel will burn just about anything, but a new DI diesel might not like SVO/WVO, even if it's a generator. This isn't about generators, but it might apply: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy Best Keith - Original Message - From: Gene Chaffin To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 1:20 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Guys, please don't waste the money on chemicals converting wvo to biodiesel to burn in a stationary genset. Just heat it up to 120oF, filter it down to ten microns and then burn it directly in the genset using the jacket water to heat the vo up to 200oF for the final burning in the genset. I have over 2000 hours of burning wvo this way and it works excellently. Save the biodiesel process for your Mercedes Turbodiesel. Good luck. -Original Message- From: Friedrich Friesinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:32 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Hi all, with arriving of spring,my project of running my 100KVA Generator with Biodiesel gets closer to be realiced. I am still confused why we should separate the WVO prior to esterification from Water,if by the other hand we should wash the oil after with water (bubblewash) My guess is that esterification will not work well if there is water in the WVO but in washing after dont i saturate my oil again with water? Is it that the Water separates easy after esterification? What about the cleaned out stuff from the bubblewash? does this stuff has to be skinned of from the clean oil or wath happens to it? Lots of questions to be answerd,i still have some times bevor i can start,messing with my oil since the temperatur is still at a chilly 0 to 5 degree C some coaching on my pilotproject would be verry apreciated thanks for any help Fritz - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Has anyone compiled an emission per Kwh (or Mwh) comparison between generation from coal fired power plant, diesel genset on b100, and b100 powered micro-turbines? -Rob At 06:24 PM 4/23/2004 -0500, you wrote: Big difference between being committed to ...exploring clean energy options... and being comitted to implementing them. The latter is where a great deal of optimism is eternally buffered. One is lovely conversation over cocktails. The other is best served up with sweat. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Well, the objectionist I spoke to is very committed to exploring clean energy options, and I have seen them put a lot of their personal money and time where their mouth is. I think they are more optimistic than that as to the advent of H2, and have spoken to some of the professional environmentalists who are against the concept of clean diesel. But in any event, thank you for laying this all out for me, and I will pass it on to those who might benefit from it. I know all this stuff seems obvious to you, but one of the reasons I quoted this person is because his views represent some of those of the more well-intended. He is simply lost in many of the other technological arguments. I think we also saw this when Kerry mentioned clean diesel favorably a year or two ago. Can't think of one environmentally-minded organization or person who spoke in defense of his views. There were probably some. Then he just had to back off. So, the anti-diesel views may rankle you and other knowledgeables, but they are still somewhat widespread and established amongst some Greens. One thing. You write: ... Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's already a given that diesels are more fuel efficient and yield greater torque, cubic inch for cubic inch in comparison to gasoline. ... This has been a lingering question
Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator
Thanks Keith, its a Mitsubishi of hand i think a 91 6 cylindre but exact specs i will give you later today Fritz - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Hi Gene, this is a whole new aspect to run my Gen.The WVO i have at the moment is very clean,but thick.haeting up the Fuel is no problem either.but i can not erford to take a chance to kill my motor!! i need to be shure,is there any input of the Motorexperts? Fritz Hi Fritz What kind of motor is it? You said 100KVA, what else? New or old? Direct injection or indirect injection? An old Lister-type diesel will burn just about anything, but a new DI diesel might not like SVO/WVO, even if it's a generator. This isn't about generators, but it might apply: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy Best Keith - Original Message - From: Gene Chaffin To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 1:20 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Guys, please don't waste the money on chemicals converting wvo to biodiesel to burn in a stationary genset. Just heat it up to 120oF, filter it down to ten microns and then burn it directly in the genset using the jacket water to heat the vo up to 200oF for the final burning in the genset. I have over 2000 hours of burning wvo this way and it works excellently. Save the biodiesel process for your Mercedes Turbodiesel. Good luck. -Original Message- From: Friedrich Friesinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:32 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Hi all, with arriving of spring,my project of running my 100KVA Generator with Biodiesel gets closer to be realiced. I am still confused why we should separate the WVO prior to esterification from Water,if by the other hand we should wash the oil after with water (bubblewash) My guess is that esterification will not work well if there is water in the WVO but in washing after dont i saturate my oil again with water? Is it that the Water separates easy after esterification? What about the cleaned out stuff from the bubblewash? does this stuff has to be skinned of from the clean oil or wath happens to it? Lots of questions to be answerd,i still have some times bevor i can start,messing with my oil since the temperatur is still at a chilly 0 to 5 degree C some coaching on my pilotproject would be verry apreciated thanks for any help Fritz - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Has anyone compiled an emission per Kwh (or Mwh) comparison between generation from coal fired power plant, diesel genset on b100, and b100 powered micro-turbines? -Rob At 06:24 PM 4/23/2004 -0500, you wrote: Big difference between being committed to ...exploring clean energy options... and being comitted to implementing them. The latter is where a great deal of optimism is eternally buffered. One is lovely conversation over cocktails. The other is best served up with sweat. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Well, the objectionist I spoke to is very committed to exploring clean energy options, and I have seen them put a lot of their personal money and time where their mouth is. I think they are more optimistic than that as to the advent of H2, and have spoken to some of the professional environmentalists who are against the concept of clean diesel. But in any event, thank you for laying this all out for me, and I will pass it on to those who might benefit from it. I know all this stuff seems obvious to you, but one of the reasons I quoted this person is because his views represent some of those of the more well-intended. He is simply lost in many of the other technological arguments. I think we also saw this when Kerry mentioned clean diesel favorably a year or two ago. Can't think of one environmentally-minded organization or person who spoke in defense of his views. There were probably some. Then he just had to back off. So, the anti-diesel views may rankle you
RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator
Fritz: Contact your engine manufacture and ask if it is OK to run on biodiesel. If yes, then running on straight vo is even better because you do not have the caustic affects of the lye from the biodiesel process. From fryer to the fuel is a good reference. Keep in touch, I'll be your test engine. My engine runs 24/7 so I will be accumulating hours rather rapidly. Gene -Original Message- From: Friedrich Friesinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 7:52 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Thanks Keith, its a Mitsubishi of hand i think a 91 6 cylindre but exact specs i will give you later today Fritz - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Hi Gene, this is a whole new aspect to run my Gen.The WVO i have at the moment is very clean,but thick.haeting up the Fuel is no problem either.but i can not erford to take a chance to kill my motor!! i need to be shure,is there any input of the Motorexperts? Fritz Hi Fritz What kind of motor is it? You said 100KVA, what else? New or old? Direct injection or indirect injection? An old Lister-type diesel will burn just about anything, but a new DI diesel might not like SVO/WVO, even if it's a generator. This isn't about generators, but it might apply: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy Best Keith - Original Message - From: Gene Chaffin To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 1:20 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Guys, please don't waste the money on chemicals converting wvo to biodiesel to burn in a stationary genset. Just heat it up to 120oF, filter it down to ten microns and then burn it directly in the genset using the jacket water to heat the vo up to 200oF for the final burning in the genset. I have over 2000 hours of burning wvo this way and it works excellently. Save the biodiesel process for your Mercedes Turbodiesel. Good luck. -Original Message- From: Friedrich Friesinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:32 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Hi all, with arriving of spring,my project of running my 100KVA Generator with Biodiesel gets closer to be realiced. I am still confused why we should separate the WVO prior to esterification from Water,if by the other hand we should wash the oil after with water (bubblewash) My guess is that esterification will not work well if there is water in the WVO but in washing after dont i saturate my oil again with water? Is it that the Water separates easy after esterification? What about the cleaned out stuff from the bubblewash? does this stuff has to be skinned of from the clean oil or wath happens to it? Lots of questions to be answerd,i still have some times bevor i can start,messing with my oil since the temperatur is still at a chilly 0 to 5 degree C some coaching on my pilotproject would be verry apreciated thanks for any help Fritz - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Has anyone compiled an emission per Kwh (or Mwh) comparison between generation from coal fired power plant, diesel genset on b100, and b100 powered micro-turbines? -Rob At 06:24 PM 4/23/2004 -0500, you wrote: Big difference between being committed to ...exploring clean energy options... and being comitted to implementing them. The latter is where a great deal of optimism is eternally buffered. One is lovely conversation over cocktails. The other is best served up with sweat. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Well, the objectionist I spoke to is very committed to exploring clean energy options, and I have seen them put a lot of their personal money and time where their mouth is. I think they are more optimistic than that as to the advent of H2, and have spoken to some of the professional environmentalists who are against the concept of clean diesel. But in any event, thank you for laying this all out for me, and I will pass it on to those who might benefit from it. I know all this stuff
RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator
Hi Gene Fritz: Contact your engine manufacture and ask if it is OK to run on biodiesel. If yes, then running on straight vo is even better because you do not have the caustic affects of the lye from the biodiesel process. Properly made biodiesel does not have any caustic effects from lye. Which is one of quite a few reasons that this: From fryer to the fuel is a good reference. Is not a good reference. Biodiesel is washed to remove residual lye and other impurities and emerges from the washing process with a neutral pH. It does not damage engines or fuel injection equipment, whereas unwashed biodiesel, as recommended in that book, can easily do so. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/31729/ Best Keith Keep in touch, I'll be your test engine. My engine runs 24/7 so I will be accumulating hours rather rapidly. Gene -Original Message- From: Friedrich Friesinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 7:52 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Thanks Keith, its a Mitsubishi of hand i think a 91 6 cylindre but exact specs i will give you later today Fritz - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Hi Gene, this is a whole new aspect to run my Gen.The WVO i have at the moment is very clean,but thick.haeting up the Fuel is no problem either.but i can not erford to take a chance to kill my motor!! i need to be shure,is there any input of the Motorexperts? Fritz Hi Fritz What kind of motor is it? You said 100KVA, what else? New or old? Direct injection or indirect injection? An old Lister-type diesel will burn just about anything, but a new DI diesel might not like SVO/WVO, even if it's a generator. This isn't about generators, but it might apply: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy Best Keith snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator
Has anyone compiled an emission per Kwh (or Mwh) comparison between generation from coal fired power plant, diesel genset on b100, and b100 powered micro-turbines? -Rob At 06:24 PM 4/23/2004 -0500, you wrote: Big difference between being committed to ...exploring clean energy options... and being comitted to implementing them. The latter is where a great deal of optimism is eternally buffered. One is lovely conversation over cocktails. The other is best served up with sweat. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Well, the objectionist I spoke to is very committed to exploring clean energy options, and I have seen them put a lot of their personal money and time where their mouth is. I think they are more optimistic than that as to the advent of H2, and have spoken to some of the professional environmentalists who are against the concept of clean diesel. But in any event, thank you for laying this all out for me, and I will pass it on to those who might benefit from it. I know all this stuff seems obvious to you, but one of the reasons I quoted this person is because his views represent some of those of the more well-intended. He is simply lost in many of the other technological arguments. I think we also saw this when Kerry mentioned clean diesel favorably a year or two ago. Can't think of one environmentally-minded organization or person who spoke in defense of his views. There were probably some. Then he just had to back off. So, the anti-diesel views may rankle you and other knowledgeables, but they are still somewhat widespread and established amongst some Greens. One thing. You write: ... Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's already a given that diesels are more fuel efficient and yield greater torque, cubic inch for cubic inch in comparison to gasoline. ... This has been a lingering question in my mind. There are a couple of reasons for this. I wonder as to the beginning product (crude) and the end product(s) (gasoline, diesel, and other products) and how much energy is used to make them. And then I wonder how we are measuring the power and energy efficiencies of gasoline vs. Diesel generation, as to amounts of either fuel, since they have different mass densities. I'd like to see a comparison of a given mass vs. a given mass, and how much energy either has. I don't know if you'd measure this in moles or pounds-adjusted-to-represent-mass-instead-of-weight or what. As for the use of statiionary diesels such as generators, they are the best targets for clean technologies due to their constant loads - no vast pendulemic swings due to constant swings of fuel loading. This means that they can be dialed into their greatest efficiency level for emissions equipment using a minimum effort and maintenance program. Sounds as if your objectionist is more interested in doing nothing than doing what is immediately available. Wonder how many more people have to die before he/she gets his/her mind out of the proverbial back pocket? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:53 PM Subject: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator I was speaking with environmentalists about the arguments for and against the concept of clean diesel technologies, and one voiced strong objections to the concept. While I think that clean diesel has a strong place in my thinking, I wanted to focus a little bit on this idea of using biodiesel in a traditional diesel generator, such as we might use at a home or site, as a backup or primary generator. Does anyone here have any views on these generators... which have gotten better, which are reliable... Do any work particularly well with biofuels? Problems? What about if you use it as a backup generator if you have biofuels, are they a problem compared to dino-diesel in terms of sitting for a very long time and then being required to work? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address
Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator
Hi all, with arriving of spring,my project of running my 100KVA Generator with Biodiesel gets closer to be realiced. I am still confused why we should separate the WVO prior to esterification from Water,if by the other hand we should wash the oil after with water (bubblewash) My guess is that esterification will not work well if there is water in the WVO but in washing after dont i saturate my oil again with water? Is it that the Water separates easy after esterification? What about the cleaned out stuff from the bubblewash? does this stuff has to be skinned of from the clean oil or wath happens to it? Lots of questions to be answerd,i still have some times bevor i can start,messing with my oil since the temperatur is still at a chilly 0 to 5 degree C some coaching on my pilotproject would be verry apreciated thanks for any help Fritz - Original Message - From: Robert Del Bueno To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Has anyone compiled an emission per Kwh (or Mwh) comparison between generation from coal fired power plant, diesel genset on b100, and b100 powered micro-turbines? -Rob At 06:24 PM 4/23/2004 -0500, you wrote: Big difference between being committed to ...exploring clean energy options... and being comitted to implementing them. The latter is where a great deal of optimism is eternally buffered. One is lovely conversation over cocktails. The other is best served up with sweat. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator Well, the objectionist I spoke to is very committed to exploring clean energy options, and I have seen them put a lot of their personal money and time where their mouth is. I think they are more optimistic than that as to the advent of H2, and have spoken to some of the professional environmentalists who are against the concept of clean diesel. But in any event, thank you for laying this all out for me, and I will pass it on to those who might benefit from it. I know all this stuff seems obvious to you, but one of the reasons I quoted this person is because his views represent some of those of the more well-intended. He is simply lost in many of the other technological arguments. I think we also saw this when Kerry mentioned clean diesel favorably a year or two ago. Can't think of one environmentally-minded organization or person who spoke in defense of his views. There were probably some. Then he just had to back off. So, the anti-diesel views may rankle you and other knowledgeables, but they are still somewhat widespread and established amongst some Greens. One thing. You write: ... Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's already a given that diesels are more fuel efficient and yield greater torque, cubic inch for cubic inch in comparison to gasoline. ... This has been a lingering question in my mind. There are a couple of reasons for this. I wonder as to the beginning product (crude) and the end product(s) (gasoline, diesel, and other products) and how much energy is used to make them. And then I wonder how we are measuring the power and energy efficiencies of gasoline vs. Diesel generation, as to amounts of either fuel, since they have different mass densities. I'd like to see a comparison of a given mass vs. a given mass, and how much energy either has. I don't know if you'd measure this in moles or pounds-adjusted-to-represent-mass-instead-of-weight or what. As for the use of statiionary diesels such as generators, they are the best targets for clean technologies due to their constant loads - no vast pendulemic swings due to constant swings of fuel loading. This means that they can be dialed into their greatest efficiency level for emissions equipment using a minimum effort and maintenance program. Sounds as if your objectionist is more interested in doing nothing than doing what is immediately available. Wonder how many more people have to die before he/she gets his/her mind out of the proverbial back pocket? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:53 PM Subject: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator I was speaking with environmentalists about the arguments for and against the concept of clean diesel
Re: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator)
Put it in the Queen's English Bryan. As you can see, I have no need for beating around the bush or putting candy and shellac coatings on anything. If it's frosting you want, you'll need to try and groom someone who won't hesitate to pump your skirt full of hot air and tell you want you want to hear. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Bryan Brah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator) CTFO Todd, You're not likely to win converts with outbursts like that. In my experience, biofuels are an easy sell when you lay all of the facts out, but biodiesel isn't the solution to every pollution problem. In fact, the way that some states monitor and measure their emissions, BD may be more of a polluter than dinodiesel. I know that here in Texas (particularly near Houston), NOX is just as big an issue as SOX, so anything with a higher discharge is looked at suspiciously by the petroleum-sponsored lackeys in the government. Since their actions are only motivated by results achievable within the short election cycle, it's unlikely that our direct lobbying efforts will have an appreciable affect on policy. However if we can create a groundswell of popular support for biofuels, then the politicians' pavlovian response will be to take action in line with focus-group and voter opinion poll data. If we can calmly and rationally answer the questions of this environmentalist person, then (s)he will become another advocate and spokesperson for our cause. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 7:33 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator What the hell is your objectionist's problems with clean diesel? Perhaps he or she likes dirty diesel technologies better? Perhaps he or she would rather wait another 25 years for the oft pitched LNG infrastructure to not appear . again? Perhaps he or she would rather wait for 30 years until a hydrogen infrastructure is still not yet a reality? And what about the dirty and carbon negative technologies that will yield all that hydrogen? Perhaps he or she is genetically identical in the misguieded mental processes of Dan Becker of Club Sierra? PM traps are already being mandated for new diesels in the EU and the US and becoming more and more cost efficient per unit of production. In short order PM traps will be serviced as quickly and efficiently as a 30 minute oil change.Biodiesel further reduces particulate matter. No sulfur/SOx with biodiesel. The new green diesel without its sulfur is going to cause greater wear and tear on moving parts of engines and injection systems. Mandatory inclusion of 3-5% biodiesel eliminates that problem. Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's already a given that diesels are more fuel efficient and yield greater torque, cubic inch for cubic inch in comparison to gasoline. As for the use of statiionary diesels such as generators, they are the best targets for clean technologies due to their constant loads - no vast pendulemic swings due to constant swings of fuel loading. This means that they can be dialed into their greatest efficiency level for emissions equipment using a minimum effort and maintenance program. Sounds as if your objectionist is more interested in doing nothing than doing what is immediately available. Wonder how many more people have to die before he/she gets his/her mind out of the proverbial back pocket? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:53 PM Subject: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator I was speaking with environmentalists about the arguments for and against the concept of clean diesel technologies, and one voiced strong objections to the concept. While I think that clean diesel has a strong place in my thinking, I wanted to focus a little bit on this idea of using biodiesel in a traditional diesel generator, such as we might use at a home or site, as a backup or primary generator. Does anyone here have any views on these generators... which have gotten better, which are reliable... Do any work particularly well with biofuels? Problems? What about if you use it as a backup generator if you have biofuels, are they a problem compared to dino-diesel in terms of sitting for a very long time and then being required to work? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives
Re: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator)
Hey, Actually, the flies/honey analogy is a bit distorted. It's the bees that you'll attract with honey. Flies tend to love a good stink. More than once I have seen this NOx concern hold up someone's progress in getting behind Biodiesel, whether it was warranted or not. Yah. And a great number of people will pass on a perfectly good bushel of apples because the top apple has a bruise. Makes no sense (good sense) to forego a fuel that eliminates 90% of the carcinogens of its fossil fuel counterpart only because it might or might not increase NOx by two or three percent. Then, of course, there are also all the other benefits these bona fide brain children would also care to throw out in the process, inconsequential matters such as carbon monoxide reduction, reductions in particulate matter, carbon neutrality, all discounted due to a minutely fractional and not necessarily absolute increase in NOx. Who needs politicians to screw things up when commoners can't even recognize a no brainer when they see it? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 5:46 PM Subject: Re: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator) On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:04:50 -0500, you wrote: CTFO Todd, You're not likely to win converts with outbursts like that. In my experience, biofuels are an easy sell when you lay all of the facts out, but biodiesel isn't the solution to every pollution problem. In fact, the way that some states monitor and measure their emissions, BD may be more of a polluter than dinodiesel. I know that here in Texas (particularly near Houston), NOX is just as big an issue as SOX, so anything with a higher discharge is looked at suspiciously by the petroleum-sponsored lackeys in the government. Since their actions are only motivated by results achievable within the short election cycle, it's unlikely that our direct lobbying efforts will have an appreciable affect on policy. However if we can create a groundswell of popular support for biofuels, then the politicians' pavlovian response will be to take action in line with focus-group and voter opinion poll data. More than once I have seen this NOx concern hold up someone's progress in getting behind Biodiesel, whether it was warranted or not. If we can calmly and rationally answer the questions of this environmentalist person, then (s)he will become another advocate and spokesperson for our cause. Yup. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 7:33 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator What the hell is your objectionist's problems with clean diesel? Perhaps he or she likes dirty diesel technologies better? Perhaps he or she would rather wait another 25 years for the oft pitched LNG infrastructure to not appear . again? Perhaps he or she would rather wait for 30 years until a hydrogen infrastructure is still not yet a reality? And what about the dirty and carbon negative technologies that will yield all that hydrogen? Perhaps he or she is genetically identical in the misguieded mental processes of Dan Becker of Club Sierra? PM traps are already being mandated for new diesels in the EU and the US and becoming more and more cost efficient per unit of production. In short order PM traps will be serviced as quickly and efficiently as a 30 minute oil change.Biodiesel further reduces particulate matter. No sulfur/SOx with biodiesel. The new green diesel without its sulfur is going to cause greater wear and tear on moving parts of engines and injection systems. Mandatory inclusion of 3-5% biodiesel eliminates that problem. Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's already a given that diesels are more fuel efficient and yield greater torque, cubic inch for cubic inch in comparison to gasoline. As for the use of statiionary diesels such as generators, they are the best targets for clean technologies due to their constant loads - no vast pendulemic swings due to constant swings of fuel loading. This means that they can be dialed into their greatest efficiency level for emissions equipment using a minimum effort and maintenance program. Sounds as if your objectionist is more interested in doing nothing than doing what is immediately available. Wonder how many more people have to die before he/she gets his/her mind out of the proverbial back pocket? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:53 PM Subject: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator
Re: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator)
jeeze, todd, what's rubbed *your* fur backwards today? even more 'Appal'ling' than usual!LOL i don't know why you jumped on Bryan, he had a valid point; while being to the point is admirable, as truthful and/or valuable your comments may be, behavior like you've displayed is going to get you and your message discredited by some just based on your Poor Form alone. some will be willing to wade through foulness regardless of how sourly it's served up and benefit from what you share here, but more will if you'd present it with a little more taste. cheers! e Appal Energy wrote: Put it in the Queen's English Bryan. As you can see, I have no need for beating around the bush or putting candy and shellac coatings on anything. If it's frosting you want, you'll need to try and groom someone who won't hesitate to pump your skirt full of hot air and tell you want you want to hear. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Bryan Brah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator) CTFO Todd, You're not likely to win converts with outbursts like that. In my experience, biofuels are an easy sell when you lay all of the facts out, but biodiesel isn't the solution to every pollution problem. In fact, the way that some states monitor and measure their emissions, BD may be more of a polluter than dinodiesel. I know that here in Texas (particularly near Houston), NOX is just as big an issue as SOX, so anything with a higher discharge is looked at suspiciously by the petroleum-sponsored lackeys in the government. Since their actions are only motivated by results achievable within the short election cycle, it's unlikely that our direct lobbying efforts will have an appreciable affect on policy. However if we can create a groundswell of popular support for biofuels, then the politicians' pavlovian response will be to take action in line with focus-group and voter opinion poll data. If we can calmly and rationally answer the questions of this environmentalist person, then (s)he will become another advocate and spokesperson for our cause. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 7:33 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator What the hell is your objectionist's problems with clean diesel? Perhaps he or she likes dirty diesel technologies better? Perhaps he or she would rather wait another 25 years for the oft pitched LNG infrastructure to not appear . again? Perhaps he or she would rather wait for 30 years until a hydrogen infrastructure is still not yet a reality? And what about the dirty and carbon negative technologies that will yield all that hydrogen? Perhaps he or she is genetically identical in the misguieded mental processes of Dan Becker of Club Sierra? PM traps are already being mandated for new diesels in the EU and the US and becoming more and more cost efficient per unit of production. In short order PM traps will be serviced as quickly and efficiently as a 30 minute oil change.Biodiesel further reduces particulate matter. No sulfur/SOx with biodiesel. The new green diesel without its sulfur is going to cause greater wear and tear on moving parts of engines and injection systems. Mandatory inclusion of 3-5% biodiesel eliminates that problem. Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's already a given that diesels are more fuel efficient and yield greater torque, cubic inch for cubic inch in comparison to gasoline. As for the use of statiionary diesels such as generators, they are the best targets for clean technologies due to their constant loads - no vast pendulemic swings due to constant swings of fuel loading. This means that they can be dialed into their greatest efficiency level for emissions equipment using a minimum effort and maintenance program. Sounds as if your objectionist is more interested in doing nothing than doing what is immediately available. Wonder how many more people have to die before he/she gets his/her mind out of the proverbial back pocket? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:53 PM Subject: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator I was speaking with environmentalists about the arguments for and against the concept of clean diesel technologies, and one voiced strong objections to the concept. While I think that clean diesel has a strong place in my thinking
Re: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator)
Last thing I need Ernest? It's some rocket scientist telling me what I have to say in order to placate/please him or her, much less the nettiquette police posting their message in acronym shorthand rather than the Queen's english. Don't care for the remarks? Don't read 'em. It gets extremely wasteful and repetetive fighting the same disinformation battles over, and over, and over, and over, and over again, and again, and again, and again, all the while listening to the same old false arguments by the same people who profess to be environmentally inclined and supposedly serving the best interests of others. Horse manure. Try selfish, constipated, technocrats and ingrained bureaucrats more interested in creating roadblocks than in implementing solutions. Those who can't talk, and talk, and talk, and talk, and talk some more. Those who can do. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: ernest breakfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 7:37 PM Subject: Re: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator) jeeze, todd, what's rubbed *your* fur backwards today? even more 'Appal'ling' than usual!LOL i don't know why you jumped on Bryan, he had a valid point; while being to the point is admirable, as truthful and/or valuable your comments may be, behavior like you've displayed is going to get you and your message discredited by some just based on your Poor Form alone. some will be willing to wade through foulness regardless of how sourly it's served up and benefit from what you share here, but more will if you'd present it with a little more taste. cheers! e Appal Energy wrote: Put it in the Queen's English Bryan. As you can see, I have no need for beating around the bush or putting candy and shellac coatings on anything. If it's frosting you want, you'll need to try and groom someone who won't hesitate to pump your skirt full of hot air and tell you want you want to hear. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Bryan Brah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator) CTFO Todd, You're not likely to win converts with outbursts like that. In my experience, biofuels are an easy sell when you lay all of the facts out, but biodiesel isn't the solution to every pollution problem. In fact, the way that some states monitor and measure their emissions, BD may be more of a polluter than dinodiesel. I know that here in Texas (particularly near Houston), NOX is just as big an issue as SOX, so anything with a higher discharge is looked at suspiciously by the petroleum-sponsored lackeys in the government. Since their actions are only motivated by results achievable within the short election cycle, it's unlikely that our direct lobbying efforts will have an appreciable affect on policy. However if we can create a groundswell of popular support for biofuels, then the politicians' pavlovian response will be to take action in line with focus-group and voter opinion poll data. If we can calmly and rationally answer the questions of this environmentalist person, then (s)he will become another advocate and spokesperson for our cause. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 7:33 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator What the hell is your objectionist's problems with clean diesel? Perhaps he or she likes dirty diesel technologies better? Perhaps he or she would rather wait another 25 years for the oft pitched LNG infrastructure to not appear . again? Perhaps he or she would rather wait for 30 years until a hydrogen infrastructure is still not yet a reality? And what about the dirty and carbon negative technologies that will yield all that hydrogen? Perhaps he or she is genetically identical in the misguieded mental processes of Dan Becker of Club Sierra? PM traps are already being mandated for new diesels in the EU and the US and becoming more and more cost efficient per unit of production. In short order PM traps will be serviced as quickly and efficiently as a 30 minute oil change.Biodiesel further reduces particulate matter. No sulfur/SOx with biodiesel. The new green diesel without its sulfur is going to cause greater wear and tear on moving parts of engines and injection systems. Mandatory inclusion of 3-5% biodiesel eliminates that problem. Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's
Re: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator)
todd, it's clear you're missing the point; what's not clear is why. Appal Energy wrote: Last thing I need Ernest? It's some rocket scientist telling me what I have to say in order to placate/please him or her, i can't speak for Bryan, but i'm certainly not professing to be any Rocket Scientist.;-) (let's hope you don't have an issue with emoticons, too! next thing we know, it's going to be contractions!) Bryans message (as i took it) wasn't about the content or anyone telling you what you have to say; it was to point out that you're going to have a better chance of reaching people if you don't use such a caustic manner. much less the nettiquette police posting their message in acronym shorthand rather than the Queen's english. no police here, and i answer to no Queen... Don't care for the remarks? Don't read 'em. a ridiculous stance, of course, since no-one could know that they don't like something without reading it,... and demonstrates the point that if people don't like the form you're presenting in, they're not going to get the benefit of the message you're trying to share if they ignore the rest of what you have to share based on not liking the form of an earlier message of yours. It gets extremely wasteful and repetetive fighting the same disinformation battles over, and over, and over, and over, and over again, and again, and again, and again, all the while listening to the same old false arguments by the same people who profess to be environmentally inclined and supposedly serving the best interests of others. unfortunately, telling one persons something doesn't always get the message across to them, (as is being evidenced here) and certainly doesn't educate everyone; there are new people that could coming into the discussion that could benefit from what's being shared if they didn't get turned off by having the information presented in a foul manner. nobody's asking you to shut up, rather, what's being suggested is in the hopes that you may be able to reach more people. of course, if you're only intent on spouting off about how stupid everyone else is, there's probably no hope. Horse manure. Try selfish, constipated, technocrats and ingrained bureaucrats more interested in creating roadblocks than in implementing solutions. turning off people who could potential become advocates because of poor form isn't going to help win any of those battles. Those who can't talk, and talk, and talk, and talk, and talk some more. Those who can do. that, of course, doesn't excuse poor form on the part of those who profess to 'do'. here's hoping you have a better day! cheers! e [much snippage] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator)
No Ernest, There is no point missed. It's perfectly clear from the subject line. It's perfectly clear from your text. It was perfectly clear from Bryan's. You believe that exasperation with disinformation and the ongoing efforts of others to spread it shouldn't be expressed in an exasperated manner. Instead, everything is supposed to spoken in calm, low voice, with not the first shred of irritation towards ignorance and stupidity, especially when those are chosen traits and not of a genetic origin. Candy and powder coat it. Hold their hands and walk them through it. Nursemade them. Do their homework for them. Grind it up and feed it to them as Pablam. And if one doesn't jump through their little hoops and waste sufficient time playing primish games, then they have every right to take offense? Sod 'em. On the other hand, it's perfectly obvious that you miss my point. (See above and last two posts on the matter.) And if you still can't discern it, not to worry. I'm rather consistant and it's bound to pop up again. Sooner or later you'll either catch it or begin to understand it firsthand. In the meantime, I'll let you waste a perfectly good pound of honey trying to catch flys. If for some ungodly reason I ever have need of doing the same, me thinks I'll retrieve the dead possum from the middle of the road and strategically relocate it long before enlisting any other means. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: ernest breakfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 2:07 PM Subject: Re: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator) todd, it's clear you're missing the point; what's not clear is why. Appal Energy wrote: Last thing I need Ernest? It's some rocket scientist telling me what I have to say in order to placate/please him or her, i can't speak for Bryan, but i'm certainly not professing to be any Rocket Scientist.;-) (let's hope you don't have an issue with emoticons, too! next thing we know, it's going to be contractions!) Bryans message (as i took it) wasn't about the content or anyone telling you what you have to say; it was to point out that you're going to have a better chance of reaching people if you don't use such a caustic manner. much less the nettiquette police posting their message in acronym shorthand rather than the Queen's english. no police here, and i answer to no Queen... Don't care for the remarks? Don't read 'em. a ridiculous stance, of course, since no-one could know that they don't like something without reading it,... and demonstrates the point that if people don't like the form you're presenting in, they're not going to get the benefit of the message you're trying to share if they ignore the rest of what you have to share based on not liking the form of an earlier message of yours. It gets extremely wasteful and repetetive fighting the same disinformation battles over, and over, and over, and over, and over again, and again, and again, and again, all the while listening to the same old false arguments by the same people who profess to be environmentally inclined and supposedly serving the best interests of others. unfortunately, telling one persons something doesn't always get the message across to them, (as is being evidenced here) and certainly doesn't educate everyone; there are new people that could coming into the discussion that could benefit from what's being shared if they didn't get turned off by having the information presented in a foul manner. nobody's asking you to shut up, rather, what's being suggested is in the hopes that you may be able to reach more people. of course, if you're only intent on spouting off about how stupid everyone else is, there's probably no hope. Horse manure. Try selfish, constipated, technocrats and ingrained bureaucrats more interested in creating roadblocks than in implementing solutions. turning off people who could potential become advocates because of poor form isn't going to help win any of those battles. Those who can't talk, and talk, and talk, and talk, and talk some more. Those who can do. that, of course, doesn't excuse poor form on the part of those who profess to 'do'. here's hoping you have a better day! cheers! e [much snippage] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http
Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator
What the hell is your objectionist's problems with clean diesel? Perhaps he or she likes dirty diesel technologies better? Perhaps he or she would rather wait another 25 years for the oft pitched LNG infrastructure to not appear . again? Perhaps he or she would rather wait for 30 years until a hydrogen infrastructure is still not yet a reality? And what about the dirty and carbon negative technologies that will yield all that hydrogen? Perhaps he or she is genetically identical in the misguieded mental processes of Dan Becker of Club Sierra? PM traps are already being mandated for new diesels in the EU and the US and becoming more and more cost efficient per unit of production. In short order PM traps will be serviced as quickly and efficiently as a 30 minute oil change.Biodiesel further reduces particulate matter. No sulfur/SOx with biodiesel. The new green diesel without its sulfur is going to cause greater wear and tear on moving parts of engines and injection systems. Mandatory inclusion of 3-5% biodiesel eliminates that problem. Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's already a given that diesels are more fuel efficient and yield greater torque, cubic inch for cubic inch in comparison to gasoline. As for the use of statiionary diesels such as generators, they are the best targets for clean technologies due to their constant loads - no vast pendulemic swings due to constant swings of fuel loading. This means that they can be dialed into their greatest efficiency level for emissions equipment using a minimum effort and maintenance program. Sounds as if your objectionist is more interested in doing nothing than doing what is immediately available. Wonder how many more people have to die before he/she gets his/her mind out of the proverbial back pocket? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:53 PM Subject: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator I was speaking with environmentalists about the arguments for and against the concept of clean diesel technologies, and one voiced strong objections to the concept. While I think that clean diesel has a strong place in my thinking, I wanted to focus a little bit on this idea of using biodiesel in a traditional diesel generator, such as we might use at a home or site, as a backup or primary generator. Does anyone here have any views on these generators... which have gotten better, which are reliable... Do any work particularly well with biofuels? Problems? What about if you use it as a backup generator if you have biofuels, are they a problem compared to dino-diesel in terms of sitting for a very long time and then being required to work? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator
Well, the objectionist I spoke to is very committed to exploring clean energy options, and I have seen them put a lot of their personal money and time where their mouth is. I think they are more optimistic than that as to the advent of H2, and have spoken to some of the professional environmentalists who are against the concept of clean diesel. But in any event, thank you for laying this all out for me, and I will pass it on to those who might benefit from it. I know all this stuff seems obvious to you, but one of the reasons I quoted this person is because his views represent some of those of the more well-intended. He is simply lost in many of the other technological arguments. I think we also saw this when Kerry mentioned clean diesel favorably a year or two ago. Can't think of one environmentally-minded organization or person who spoke in defense of his views. There were probably some. Then he just had to back off. So, the anti-diesel views may rankle you and other knowledgeables, but they are still somewhat widespread and established amongst some Greens. One thing. You write: ... Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's already a given that diesels are more fuel efficient and yield greater torque, cubic inch for cubic inch in comparison to gasoline. ... This has been a lingering question in my mind. There are a couple of reasons for this. I wonder as to the beginning product (crude) and the end product(s) (gasoline, diesel, and other products) and how much energy is used to make them. And then I wonder how we are measuring the power and energy efficiencies of gasoline vs. Diesel generation, as to amounts of either fuel, since they have different mass densities. I'd like to see a comparison of a given mass vs. a given mass, and how much energy either has. I don't know if you'd measure this in moles or pounds-adjusted-to-represent-mass-instead-of-weight or what. As for the use of statiionary diesels such as generators, they are the best targets for clean technologies due to their constant loads - no vast pendulemic swings due to constant swings of fuel loading. This means that they can be dialed into their greatest efficiency level for emissions equipment using a minimum effort and maintenance program. Sounds as if your objectionist is more interested in doing nothing than doing what is immediately available. Wonder how many more people have to die before he/she gets his/her mind out of the proverbial back pocket? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:53 PM Subject: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator I was speaking with environmentalists about the arguments for and against the concept of clean diesel technologies, and one voiced strong objections to the concept. While I think that clean diesel has a strong place in my thinking, I wanted to focus a little bit on this idea of using biodiesel in a traditional diesel generator, such as we might use at a home or site, as a backup or primary generator. Does anyone here have any views on these generators... which have gotten better, which are reliable... Do any work particularly well with biofuels? Problems? What about if you use it as a backup generator if you have biofuels, are they a problem compared to dino-diesel in terms of sitting for a very long time and then being required to work? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of
More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator)
CTFO Todd, You're not likely to win converts with outbursts like that. In my experience, biofuels are an easy sell when you lay all of the facts out, but biodiesel isn't the solution to every pollution problem. In fact, the way that some states monitor and measure their emissions, BD may be more of a polluter than dinodiesel. I know that here in Texas (particularly near Houston), NOX is just as big an issue as SOX, so anything with a higher discharge is looked at suspiciously by the petroleum-sponsored lackeys in the government. Since their actions are only motivated by results achievable within the short election cycle, it's unlikely that our direct lobbying efforts will have an appreciable affect on policy. However if we can create a groundswell of popular support for biofuels, then the politicians' pavlovian response will be to take action in line with focus-group and voter opinion poll data. If we can calmly and rationally answer the questions of this environmentalist person, then (s)he will become another advocate and spokesperson for our cause. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 7:33 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator What the hell is your objectionist's problems with clean diesel? Perhaps he or she likes dirty diesel technologies better? Perhaps he or she would rather wait another 25 years for the oft pitched LNG infrastructure to not appear . again? Perhaps he or she would rather wait for 30 years until a hydrogen infrastructure is still not yet a reality? And what about the dirty and carbon negative technologies that will yield all that hydrogen? Perhaps he or she is genetically identical in the misguieded mental processes of Dan Becker of Club Sierra? PM traps are already being mandated for new diesels in the EU and the US and becoming more and more cost efficient per unit of production. In short order PM traps will be serviced as quickly and efficiently as a 30 minute oil change.Biodiesel further reduces particulate matter. No sulfur/SOx with biodiesel. The new green diesel without its sulfur is going to cause greater wear and tear on moving parts of engines and injection systems. Mandatory inclusion of 3-5% biodiesel eliminates that problem. Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's already a given that diesels are more fuel efficient and yield greater torque, cubic inch for cubic inch in comparison to gasoline. As for the use of statiionary diesels such as generators, they are the best targets for clean technologies due to their constant loads - no vast pendulemic swings due to constant swings of fuel loading. This means that they can be dialed into their greatest efficiency level for emissions equipment using a minimum effort and maintenance program. Sounds as if your objectionist is more interested in doing nothing than doing what is immediately available. Wonder how many more people have to die before he/she gets his/her mind out of the proverbial back pocket? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:53 PM Subject: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator I was speaking with environmentalists about the arguments for and against the concept of clean diesel technologies, and one voiced strong objections to the concept. While I think that clean diesel has a strong place in my thinking, I wanted to focus a little bit on this idea of using biodiesel in a traditional diesel generator, such as we might use at a home or site, as a backup or primary generator. Does anyone here have any views on these generators... which have gotten better, which are reliable... Do any work particularly well with biofuels? Problems? What about if you use it as a backup generator if you have biofuels, are they a problem compared to dino-diesel in terms of sitting for a very long time and then being required to work? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group
Re: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator)
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:04:50 -0500, you wrote: CTFO Todd, You're not likely to win converts with outbursts like that. In my experience, biofuels are an easy sell when you lay all of the facts out, but biodiesel isn't the solution to every pollution problem. In fact, the way that some states monitor and measure their emissions, BD may be more of a polluter than dinodiesel. I know that here in Texas (particularly near Houston), NOX is just as big an issue as SOX, so anything with a higher discharge is looked at suspiciously by the petroleum-sponsored lackeys in the government. Since their actions are only motivated by results achievable within the short election cycle, it's unlikely that our direct lobbying efforts will have an appreciable affect on policy. However if we can create a groundswell of popular support for biofuels, then the politicians' pavlovian response will be to take action in line with focus-group and voter opinion poll data. More than once I have seen this NOx concern hold up someone's progress in getting behind Biodiesel, whether it was warranted or not. If we can calmly and rationally answer the questions of this environmentalist person, then (s)he will become another advocate and spokesperson for our cause. Yup. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 7:33 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator What the hell is your objectionist's problems with clean diesel? Perhaps he or she likes dirty diesel technologies better? Perhaps he or she would rather wait another 25 years for the oft pitched LNG infrastructure to not appear . again? Perhaps he or she would rather wait for 30 years until a hydrogen infrastructure is still not yet a reality? And what about the dirty and carbon negative technologies that will yield all that hydrogen? Perhaps he or she is genetically identical in the misguieded mental processes of Dan Becker of Club Sierra? PM traps are already being mandated for new diesels in the EU and the US and becoming more and more cost efficient per unit of production. In short order PM traps will be serviced as quickly and efficiently as a 30 minute oil change.Biodiesel further reduces particulate matter. No sulfur/SOx with biodiesel. The new green diesel without its sulfur is going to cause greater wear and tear on moving parts of engines and injection systems. Mandatory inclusion of 3-5% biodiesel eliminates that problem. Manufacture of distillate fuel oils is less energy intensive than manufacture of gasolines, erego greater energy savings in processing. It's already a given that diesels are more fuel efficient and yield greater torque, cubic inch for cubic inch in comparison to gasoline. As for the use of statiionary diesels such as generators, they are the best targets for clean technologies due to their constant loads - no vast pendulemic swings due to constant swings of fuel loading. This means that they can be dialed into their greatest efficiency level for emissions equipment using a minimum effort and maintenance program. Sounds as if your objectionist is more interested in doing nothing than doing what is immediately available. Wonder how many more people have to die before he/she gets his/her mind out of the proverbial back pocket? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:53 PM Subject: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator I was speaking with environmentalists about the arguments for and against the concept of clean diesel technologies, and one voiced strong objections to the concept. While I think that clean diesel has a strong place in my thinking, I wanted to focus a little bit on this idea of using biodiesel in a traditional diesel generator, such as we might use at a home or site, as a backup or primary generator. Does anyone here have any views on these generators... which have gotten better, which are reliable... Do any work particularly well with biofuels? Problems? What about if you use it as a backup generator if you have biofuels, are they a problem compared to dino-diesel in terms of sitting for a very long time and then being required to work? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http
