RE: t-and-f: believe it or not
I'm skating without data here, but I think the following folks were under 25 when they set their WRs: Viren, Rono, Aouita, ElG, Morcelli, Cram, Coe, Geb, Komen (he was 21 I believe!), Kimombwa. Fair enough Rich. But for those who think that naming names of WR holders who did so under 25, constitutes evidence that distance ability can reach WR-level by 18-19 (that WAS the discussion ... a 7:58 steeple) you must consider your own examples: Coe (set WR in 800 when young, ran 3:29.77 when he was much older) Aouita (may have run 13:00 WR when 25, but 4:50/8:13y/12:58 when 27 or so, 7:29 when he was 29) Rono (4 WRs in '78 when he was older than 25, but 13:06 WR/27:29 in '81/'82 when much older) ElG(Better at 22 or 28? Hard to say. He was certainly great at both ages. Fastest at 2k/3k when older than 25) Cram (Best year was 1985, he was 25 or older then) Morceli (Greatest success in 1500m when under 25, but 2k WR and 7:23 3k WR when 26 and 25) Viren (WR at 22 I think, but even better in 1976: Gold, Gold, 5th in 'thon) Consider other post-1960 examples: Ovett (WRs when young, but 1500m PR when far beyond 25) Walker (3:49.4 when young, 3:49.08 seven years later) Mamede (How old when he went 13:12/27:13 WR in same season? way past 30) Lopes (13:16/27:17 at 37. 'nuff said) Moses Kiptanui (WR in Steeple and 5k in 1995, older than 25? 7:56 in 1997) Ron Clarke (Fastest at what age?) Moorcroft (3:49/7:32/13:00.42 PRs when 28 years old) Salah Hissou (How old when he went sub-27?) Yobes ondieki (How old when he went sub-27?) Arturo Barrios (How old when he ran 13:07/27:08?) Tergat Moh. Mourhit Steve Scott Dieter Baumann (12:54 at over-30) Spivey (7:37 in '93, 13:15 in '94 ... 3:31/3:49y/4:52 when older than 25) Won't even start with the women, or the marathon and XC specialists. When you get right down to it, there are lots of examples of distance WR holders who set their first mark at least, when younger than 25. Most of the examples are milers. There are certainly some exceptions. Did anyone post-1960 run their best-ever times while still 19? Yes, Jim Ryun did in the 1500 and mile. However, there is a lot of evidence that a DISTANCE runner USUALLY reaches his full potential physically when older than 25 and having trained for 10-12+ years. That is all I believed, I didn't want to start a sprinter vs. D-runner debate. If you think the 7:58 WJR is a legitimate record, by an actual 18-year-old, god bless you, you are going to enjoy following track much more for it. /Brian McEwen -Original Message- From: Richard McCann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: believe it or not The sport has changed with professionalization. In large part is reflects the different reasons why sprinters and distance runners compete. Sprinters are in largely for the competition only, and at least in the past, only trained as necessary for that competition. When training became a burden in life, as with the end of college, they retired. Distance runners on the other hand (yes, I'm biased-I'm one) participate for not only competition but also health benefits, outdoor enjoyment, physical effort, and social aspects. Because of the work necessary (read investment) to reach an elite level versus sprinters, they are more likely to have structured their life around their training, and leaving school for work was a much smaller adjustment vis-a-vis training and competition. With sprinters now able to make a living, the transition to work is in fact just a continuation of their sport. On the other hand, the number of masters sprinters is tiny in comparison to masters distance runners, where the old model still rules. I guess we've been fooled up to now about whether speed peaks before endurance by biased, tainted data. As for the Kenyans, I would not be surprised if they are not suffering early burnout from intense training. Our discussion about the York HS program has some applicabiltiy here. And as an added note, Webb is competitive with the African Juniors, no matter what their age. I believe his time would have been among the top 3 Jrs 1500s in the world in 2000. BTW, if you look at the average of past distance world record holders, I think you'll find that at least after 1960 (the true modern era), they have been much younger than you might think. I'm skating without data here, but I think the following folks were under 25 when they set their WRs: Viren, Rono, Aouita, ElG, Morcelli, Cram, Coe, Geb, Komen (he was 21 I believe!), Kimombwa. Richard McCann Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:06:02 -0600 (MDT) From: P.F.Talbot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: believe it or not Also, Shorter was 24 when he won Olympic Gold in the marathon correct (and was 5th in the Olympic 10,000m)? He arguably improved little if any after that time (though he did dominate the sport for years
RE: t-and-f: believe it or not
At 09:09 PM 8/30/2001 -0400, malmo wrote: Distance runners time investment versus that of sprinters? Distance running, of all events in track, requires the LEAST amount of time investment. Few sports besides running, if any, can one become one of the best in the world on just two hours a day. The sprinters put in a long day to get where they are. Give em credit. malmo At the world elite level today, yes, perhaps, although how much of the year they work at those levels is less. Distance running requires virtually year-round conditioning. However at the scholastic and collegiate levels, which is where the pre-professional sprinters came from, they definitely did not put in the same amount of work (and I know you went to college). 5 days a week for 5 months at most, perhaps an extra hour a day during those days vs. distance running. It is a sporadic activity at that level compared to distance running. Also, that higher work level is a direct result of professionalization of sprinting. My statement about levels of investment relate most directly to the pre-profestional period. In the pre-professional period, few sprinters worked as hard as distance runners. I believe one of the main reasons why the 100m WR continues to drop is largely because of the increased work level of world class sprinters, just as a similar phenomenon drove down distance WRs in the 1950s and 60s. Richard McCann Because of the work necessary (read investment) to reach an elite level versus sprinters, they are more likely to have structured their life around their training, and leaving school for work was a much smaller adjustment vis-a-vis training and competition. With sprinters now able to make a living, the transition to work is in fact just a continuation of their sport. On the other hand, the number of masters sprinters is tiny in comparison to masters distance runners, where the old model still rules.
RE: t-and-f: believe it or not
I heard the same stories, but have not seen Obea since last track season (2000) to ask him what he is doing as related to track. It really is a shame if he wastes all that talent and gives it up for good. Gerald -Original Message- From: Conway [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:23 AM To: Gerald Woodward; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: believe it or not Gerald wrote: Obea's problem was that he got mixed up with the wrong crowd, and they messed up his mind. He also got hurt for the first time and did not know how to deal with a serious injury. He tried to come back too soon and reinjured himself. His confidence has been destroyed. It is really too bad because he probably would have broken the WR in the 400 had he continued to train and develop in college as he had in AG and HS. So does that mean that we have seen the last of Obea on the track ?? I know earlier this year there were reports of him being at one or two different JCs .. Times that he had supposedly ran .. And that he was on his way back .. This sounds like Obea is calling it quits .. Which would be a shame for someone with his talent .. I too got to see him run out here in California .. And while I am sure he worked very hard, he made it look surprisingly easy ... Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: believe it or not
From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] Obea Moore? Brendan Christian? Bill Miller? The 400m? The vault? You guys know better. For Chrissakes David, YOU ARE a distance runner! Saying that lots of legitimate 16-year-olds or 19-year-olds were able to run XX.XX or jump XX.XX in a 400m or a jump has no bearing on distance running. Kebba, last time I looked into it, the 100/200 and Steeple were different events with different physical requirements. You might want to check this out. Of course they're different events with different requirements. this doesn't meant that we should have different expectations. Can a sprinter or jumper put up national class (or flirting-with-world-class) times while still well under 20? Of course. Distance running and sprinting are different sports, not just different events. Check the historical average of distance record holders and sprint rec. holders ... then check the same for Major Championship winners. Late-20's for the skinny guys, early 20's for the fast guys. There are plenty of 19-25 yr old running really fast in events for 800m all the way up to 10k. Look on the world list. The trend has been increasing in the last decade and shows very few signs of slowing. I'll shut up about bogus Kenyan Juniors .. but please give me something better than; 7:58 could be legit, because Americans run fast sprint times at 16. okay, i'll give you something bettter. maybe it's that they're just better than us, want it more than us, and expect success more than us, and train smarter/harder than us. when national pride is dependnant on whether or not you medal the expectations go way up. In 1992, 1995, and 96 it was announced and seen as a damn near travesty when we couldn't bust a grape in the men's 100m. How do you think Kenyan steeplers feel right now. We expect our junior men and women sprinter to be extremely competetive. we get excited when they come close to WJR or times that would take them very far (e.g., semifinals) in international competitions. We expect our senior men and women sprinters and hurdlers to dominate the yearly lists and win medals at major meets. On the other hand, it's a big deal when a distance runner is merely competitive in an international final or makes a good effort. No one cut Dennis Mitchell or Burrell any slack in 92 when they got 3rd and 5th in Barcelona. If we set the standard for sending people to international teams to people who have PR's of 3:32 or better you'll see a diff. When our 5k, Steeple, and 10k folks can be internationally competetive in shorter events (See Szabo, Kiptinui, Said, Jacobs, O Sullivan, Komen, Slaney, Haile, etc) we'll stand a chance. Until then forget about it. When we stop whining and making excuses talking about EPO, over-ages Kenyans, Morrocans, Ethiopians and do a better job of talent ID, talent development, and training the parameters needed for top flight performances in the distances then we'll stand a chance. /Brian McEwen P.S. Now we not only have women's WRs that will never be broken, but Junior records as well. Junior records can and do get broken. Had it not been for a broken wind-gauge the WJR in 100m would've been broken in Edmonton. Records are records because they're outstanding performances not because they're soft or easy. If you want something it takes a ton of talent, and often a ton of reasonably-well guided work. 100 miles a week is not the answer. altitude training is not the answer. think of it this way - at most major Div I universities if football and basketball coahces have 2-4 bad yrs in a row heads roll. In Kenya and Ethiopia if medals aren't brought back from major competitions s**t hits the fan, people are pissed, etc. If Kenneedy, Holman, McMullen, Meb, Suzy, or Khannouci bomb out it's really no big deal because no one expected much to begin with. If a kid blows a baton pass more than once in a major meet they can kiss their future relay chances goodbye (I've seen it happen). If we told our distance folks that they had to hit the A standard in order to receive/maintain their funding (like they do in some countries) we'd see a diff. --Kebba _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: believe it or not
Gerald wrote: Obea's problem was that he got mixed up with the wrong crowd, and they messed up his mind. He also got hurt for the first time and did not know how to deal with a serious injury. He tried to come back too soon and reinjured himself. His confidence has been destroyed. It is really too bad because he probably would have broken the WR in the 400 had he continued to train and develop in college as he had in AG and HS. So does that mean that we have seen the last of Obea on the track ?? I know earlier this year there were reports of him being at one or two different JCs .. Times that he had supposedly ran .. And that he was on his way back .. This sounds like Obea is calling it quits .. Which would be a shame for someone with his talent .. I too got to see him run out here in California .. And while I am sure he worked very hard, he made it look surprisingly easy ... Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: believe it or not
In a message dated Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:18:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Distance running and sprinting are different sports, not just different events. Check the historical average of distance record holders and sprint rec. holders . Hmm, let's see. 30-year-old Carl Lewis set his first record in the 100, was succceeded by 27-year-old Leroy Burrell who was suceeded by 28-year-old Donovan Bailey. MJ set the 200 record at 28, the 400 record (finally) at 30. Meanwhile, Geb holds the 5K and 10K marks set when he was 25. gh
Re: t-and-f: believe it or not
Hmm, let's see. 30-year-old Carl Lewis set his first record in the 100, was succceeded by 27-year-old Leroy Burrell who was suceeded by 28-year-old Donovan Bailey. MJ set the 200 record at 28, the 400 record (finally) at 30. Meanwhile, Geb holds the 5K and 10K marks set when he was 25. And Komen before him was not exactly geriatric, either. Even if you don't believe the stated ages, the Africans are clearly having world class success at the distance events well before age 25. I suspect if you look at the top ten in any given year, there won't be that much age difference between sprinters and distance runners any more. The comparison IS made more difficult (actually impossible) by the fact that we can't judge many of the Africans' ages accurately. But the last 15 years of sprinting has seen 25-30 become the peak age. - Ed Parrot
RE: t-and-f: believe it or not
In a message dated Thu, 30 Aug 2001 1:43:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A: historical avg would stretch back farther than 15 years. actually, it wouldn't, becuase the nature of the sport has changed so drastically in that period of time. Before the profressional era, sprinting was dominated by American collegians who typically retired shortly after finishing college (or the next Olympics). Now that one can afford to hang around, the age of top sprinters has skyrocketed upwards. gh
Re: t-and-f: believe it or not
Also, Shorter was 24 when he won Olympic Gold in the marathon correct (and was 5th in the Olympic 10,000m)? He arguably improved little if any after that time (though he did dominate the sport for years at his peak). On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Ed Dana Parrot wrote: Hmm, let's see. 30-year-old Carl Lewis set his first record in the 100, was succceeded by 27-year-old Leroy Burrell who was suceeded by 28-year-old Donovan Bailey. MJ set the 200 record at 28, the 400 record (finally) at 30. Meanwhile, Geb holds the 5K and 10K marks set when he was 25. And Komen before him was not exactly geriatric, either. Even if you don't believe the stated ages, the Africans are clearly having world class success at the distance events well before age 25. I suspect if you look at the top ten in any given year, there won't be that much age difference between sprinters and distance runners any more. The comparison IS made more difficult (actually impossible) by the fact that we can't judge many of the Africans' ages accurately. But the last 15 years of sprinting has seen 25-30 become the peak age. - Ed Parrot *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: believe it or not
Also, Shorter was 24 when he won Olympic Gold in the marathon correct (and was 5th in the Olympic 10,000m)? He arguably improved little if any after that time (though he did dominate the sport for years at his peak). Well ... nobody can argue with that ... that proves it. Distance runners can hit their lifetime best at any age and look for a Kenyan teenager to run 2 miles under 8:00 soon.
Re: t-and-f: believe it or not
The sport has changed with professionalization. In large part is reflects the different reasons why sprinters and distance runners compete. Sprinters are in largely for the competition only, and at least in the past, only trained as necessary for that competition. When training became a burden in life, as with the end of college, they retired. Distance runners on the other hand (yes, I'm biased-I'm one) participate for not only competition but also health benefits, outdoor enjoyment, physical effort, and social aspects. Because of the work necessary (read investment) to reach an elite level versus sprinters, they are more likely to have structured their life around their training, and leaving school for work was a much smaller adjustment vis-a-vis training and competition. With sprinters now able to make a living, the transition to work is in fact just a continuation of their sport. On the other hand, the number of masters sprinters is tiny in comparison to masters distance runners, where the old model still rules. I guess we've been fooled up to now about whether speed peaks before endurance by biased, tainted data. As for the Kenyans, I would not be surprised if they are not suffering early burnout from intense training. Our discussion about the York HS program has some applicabiltiy here. And as an added note, Webb is competitive with the African Juniors, no matter what their age. I believe his time would have been among the top 3 Jrs 1500s in the world in 2000. BTW, if you look at the average of past distance world record holders, I think you'll find that at least after 1960 (the true modern era), they have been much younger than you might think. I'm skating without data here, but I think the following folks were under 25 when they set their WRs: Viren, Rono, Aouita, ElG, Morcelli, Cram, Coe, Geb, Komen (he was 21 I believe!), Kimombwa. Richard McCann Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:06:02 -0600 (MDT) From: P.F.Talbot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: believe it or not Also, Shorter was 24 when he won Olympic Gold in the marathon correct (and was 5th in the Olympic 10,000m)? He arguably improved little if any after that time (though he did dominate the sport for years at his peak). On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Ed Dana Parrot wrote: Hmm, let's see. 30-year-old Carl Lewis set his first record in the 100, was succceeded by 27-year-old Leroy Burrell who was suceeded by 28-year-old Donovan Bailey. MJ set the 200 record at 28, the 400 record (finally) at 30. Meanwhile, Geb holds the 5K and 10K marks set when he was 25. And Komen before him was not exactly geriatric, either. Even if you don't believe the stated ages, the Africans are clearly having world class success at the distance events well before age 25. I suspect if you look at the top ten in any given year, there won't be that much age difference between sprinters and distance runners any more. The comparison IS made more difficult (actually impossible) by the fact that we can't judge many of the Africans' ages accurately. But the last 15 years of sprinting has seen 25-30 become the peak age.
RE: t-and-f: believe it or not
GH, I was there when Obea ran it! I also followed his career from Age Group TF through his high school years. He ran and my nephew competed in a lot of the same meets, except that my nephew is a few years older than Obea. I also know Obea's mother very well. We sat and talked at many of Obea's meets. She is a high school principal. Obea was an exceptional athlete with very competitive juices that allowed him to mature and excel beyond his years. He was also a very hard worker. He could do workouts that many athletes could not do. His range ran from 100 Meters through 800 Meters. I'm sure he could have run a pretty quick mile if he so desired. Obea's problem was that he got mixed up with the wrong crowd, and they messed up his mind. He also got hurt for the first time and did not know how to deal with a serious injury. He tried to come back too soon and reinjured himself. His confidence has been destroyed. It is really too bad because he probably would have broken the WR in the 400 had he continued to train and develop in college as he had in AG and HS. Gerald -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: believe it or not Brian McEwen writes: Tell me that you believe a 16 year old can run 8:19 or 27:43 (as the records would have you believe) and I will shut up No, i don't believe it. But then, I don't believe anybody of any age can run 12:39 or 26:22 either! How do you think the rest of the world feels about Obea Moore's 45.14 at age 16? I don't believe that one either! gh
Re: t-and-f: believe it or not
gh wrote: Brian McEwen writes: Tell me that you believe a 16 year old can run 8:19 or 27:43 (as the records would have you believe) and I will shut up. No, i don't believe it. But then, I don't believe anybody of any age can run 12:39 or 26:22 either! How do you think the rest of the world feels about Obea Moore's 45.14 at age 16? I don't believe that one either! gh I'll take that a step farther - anyone who saw Obea Moore at the Olympic Trials in Atlanta would certainly not have believed he was 16, and I don't just mean his performance. He looked far more physically mature than I could ever hope to, no matter how many gray hairs I get. So comments about how old some East Africans look are not necessarily very relevant either. Look at what Brendan Christian did in 2000 as a high school sophomore. That would have put him in the Olympics from most countries, and been knocking on the door of the finals. That - somewhere just above or below 10th place - is the same kind of finish someone with a 8:19 or a 27:43 PR could expect at the world level if they ran well. Are the world junior records legit? Maybe not. Is there any chance the true WJR is not held by a Kenyan or Ethiopian? Probably not. Given how big the gap is between them and the best from real birth certificate countries, and how dominant they are in competitions where it doesn't matter how old they are, I would expect their juniors to be a lot better than everyone else's. david honea
RE: t-and-f: believe it or not
Obviously some, if not many, of the African Juniors of the past 15 years have not been juniors. Moses Kiptanui was definitely not 19 back in '91. There was NO WAY that Addis Abebe was 19 back in '89. Dude had a receding hairline (Okay, so did the Mastalir's in high school, but that's different). But I would not hesititate to believe that Ismael Kirui was 18 in '93 when he won the World Champs 5K for the first time. That guy really looked like a true 18-year-old. Sure, that has him running 28:30 or so at age 16, but if Chapa could run that in high school, Kirui could do it at 16. sideshow
RE: t-and-f: believe it or not
You guys also have to remember that the majority of American's don't start running until their freshman year of high school. I was 15 in October of my freshman year... meaning I had run for a year by the time I was 16. When, lets say a Kenyan runs 13:low at, say 19, he may have been running for 10 years already. That's like one of our guys running 13:low at 25. There are so many factors that go into this. 75% are probably not really juniors. Of the 25% that are left, probably 95% have the equivalent running experience of a 25 year old American. On top of all this, don't forget that running at such a young age while you are still growing may affect the body in a more beneficial way than starting at 14 or 15. M From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: believe it or not Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:01:53 EDT Obviously some, if not many, of the African Juniors of the past 15 years have not been juniors. Moses Kiptanui was definitely not 19 back in '91. There was NO WAY that Addis Abebe was 19 back in '89. Dude had a receding hairline (Okay, so did the Mastalir's in high school, but that's different). But I would not hesititate to believe that Ismael Kirui was 18 in '93 when he won the World Champs 5K for the first time. That guy really looked like a true 18-year-old. Sure, that has him running 28:30 or so at age 16, but if Chapa could run that in high school, Kirui could do it at 16. sideshow _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
