Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Dave F 

Neither are really a direct alternative

Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum

Just because there are fewer 'gallery' than museum doesn't make it 
incorrect.


Just because galleries may be incorrectly tagged a 'museum' doesn't make 
them incorrect.


A shop selling art could be a sub tag of gallery (or maybe the other way 
around?)


I see no reason for discouraging tourism=galley.

Dave F.


On 01/02/2016 19:28, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

Hi all,

I have created a proposal to discourage the tag tourism=gallery,
suggesting either shop=art or tourism=museum as an alternative.

The proposal can be found here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Discourage_tourism%3Dgallery

Please let me know what you think.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Government offices

2016-02-01 Thread Matthijs Melissen 
On 27 January 2016 at 14:40, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> I have no idea why you have included:
>
> amenity=register_office (1044 instances)
> office=administrative (8807 instances)
> office=register (137 instances)
> office=tax (354 instances)
>
> on that page, without any suggested detailed tagging.  Information will be
> lost if people change e.g. "register offices" to be merely "government
> office".

There is new tagging in the proposal. It is, respectively:
- office=government, government=register_office
- office=government (with correct admin level)
- office=government, government=register_office
- office=government, government=tax

> As an aside, when I looked at "office" use in the UK a month or so ago while
> trying to work out what to render as what, I came up with this list:
>
> https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L1421
>
> Obviously that's a much wider net than you're looking at here, but there are
> some synonyms in there you might want to think about.

Thanks. I think the proposal takes some of these values into account
already. I don't think the others necessarily need to be included in
the currrent proposal.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Matthijs Melissen 
On 1 February 2016 at 22:17, Max  wrote:
> Those are clearly museums, not galleries and they are correctly tagged
> as museums. Sorry to say this, but that sentence clearly shows OP has
> not understand what a gellery is. The wiki pages for tourism=gallery,
> and shop=art do explain nicely what the difference is between those.

Thanks for your useful comments.

I'm not sure if I fully understand your explanation. How would you
categorize the following examples:

* http://www.mudam.lu/en/le-musee/la-collection/currently-at-mudam/
* http://www.whitewallgalleries.com/
* https://www.bcee.lu/en/Discover-BCEE/Discover-BCEE/The-'Am-Tunnel'-art-gallery

I'm not sure if I ever saw an art shop of the type you described. Do
you have any example of these, perhaps a URL?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Max 
Browsing in the wiki I can see where all the confusion comes from.
Basically the wiki is saying that anything showing art is a gallery,
while the word museum is reserved for science and history.

Obviously that's not the case and should be fixed.


On 2016년 02월 01일 23:40, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> On 1 February 2016 at 20:28, Matthijs Melissen  
> wrote:
>> I have created a proposal to discourage the tag tourism=gallery,
>> suggesting either shop=art or tourism=museum as an alternative.
>>
>> The proposal can be found here:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Discourage_tourism%3Dgallery
> 
> Note that this proposal is exactly the proposal althio formulated
> here: 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2016-January/028265.html
> In that thread it got a lot of support. Interesting how rapidly the
> hive-mind can change opinions...
> 
> -- Matthijs
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread ael 
On Mon, Feb 01, 2016 at 07:56:22PM +, Dave F wrote:
> Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum
 
+1
ael


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Max 
No, that's not the difference.

A museum is an institution which shows art works so that the public can
see them. The art works are usually by established artists. Shows are
curated thematically by curators.

A gallery is showing art to the public. There is the possibility of
purchase, but it is only a tiny fraction of the audience which actually
is buying. The works are by artists the gallery represents. Shows are
designed by the artist (with help or in collaboration with the gallerist).

An art shop is selling art(sy things). Visiting without buying is
possible, just as you may walk through a supermarket without buying
anything. The artworks are for sale are usually more on the craft side
of the arts. They are of decorative nature and not of considerable worth
on the art market. Art works may end there as second hand goods. The
producers of these art works may not even know their work is in the
shop. There is no special exhibition, concept or theme other than the
intent of selling the goods.




On 2016년 02월 01일 22:49, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> I always thought that an Art Gallery is a specific type of museum, i.e.
> an Art Museum. It can also mean a shop that exhibits and sells art.
> Hence tourism=gallery seems a good way indicate an Art Museum or Art
> Gallery, in line with tourism=museum. A shop that exhibits art with the
> main aim of selling it is clearly a shop=art.
> 
> Volker
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Volker Schmidt 
I always thought that an Art Gallery is a specific type of museum, i.e. an
Art Museum. It can also mean a shop that exhibits and sells art.
Hence tourism=gallery seems a good way indicate an Art Museum or Art
Gallery, in line with tourism=museum. A shop that exhibits art with the
main aim of selling it is clearly a shop=art.

Volker
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Philip Barnes 
On Mon Feb 1 21:44:50 2016 GMT, ael wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 01, 2016 at 07:56:22PM +, Dave F wrote:
> > Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum
>  
> +1
> ael
> 
+2
The wiki should reflect the tags mappers use, not dictate to them.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Matthijs Melissen 
On 1 February 2016 at 20:56, Dave F  wrote:
> Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum

Note that the wiki currently states: 'Note that art galleries very
often have the word "museum" in the name. Despite this, if they are
primarily displaying art, they should probably take the tag
tourism=gallery'.

It is not clear whether you (and the people agreeing with you) do or
do not agree that this statement in the wiki is correct.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread althio 
> > > Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum
> >
> > +1
> > ael
> >
> +2
> The wiki should reflect the tags mappers use, not dictate to them.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)

Wiki is not clear at all.
"An art gallery (or art museum) is […]"
I don't understand why you seem to support the wiki in this current state.

- althio
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Max 
On 2016년 02월 02일 00:03, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> On 1 February 2016 at 22:17, Max  wrote:
>> Those are clearly museums, not galleries and they are correctly tagged
>> as museums. Sorry to say this, but that sentence clearly shows OP has
>> not understand what a gellery is. The wiki pages for tourism=gallery,
>> and shop=art do explain nicely what the difference is between those.
> 
> Thanks for your useful comments.
Sorry if it sounded harsh.

> I'm not sure if I fully understand your explanation. How would you
> categorize the following examples:
> 
> * http://www.mudam.lu/en/le-musee/la-collection/currently-at-mudam/
That's clearly a museum. On the page you see that the Museum has a
collection. The museum aquires works from artists for their collection.
Galleries don't do that. If museums do sell from their collection (this
happens one in a while) it is a major scandal.
You can also define it by their business model. They ask for donations.
Another indicator that it's a museum, galleries would not do this
either, because they live off the (usually 50%) fee of their sales.

> * http://www.whitewallgalleries.com/
That is a gallery. At least that's their self understanding. It is
selling crap IMHO, but let's not get into that. It seems quite
commercial, shop=art seems fair for this one as well.

> * 
> https://www.bcee.lu/en/Discover-BCEE/Discover-BCEE/The-'Am-Tunnel'-art-gallery
I would tag this as museum, not gallery. The word gallery is sometimes
used in a museum as a synonym for exhibition hall. In this case it is a
showroom for the aquisitions of a bank. It is not the intent of the
exhibition to resell these works. That said, showing the work usually
makes the work more valuable, so it is in the interest of the owner to
display the works (or lend them, sometimes permanently, to a museum).

> I'm not sure if I ever saw an art shop of the type you described. Do
> you have any example of these, perhaps a URL?

the picture in the wiki for shop=art is a good example.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Max 
I second this. Gallery, Museum and a shop that sells art are completely
different things.

"I had a look at some famous galleries: the MoMA in New York, the Uffizi
in Florence, the National Gallery of Art in Washington DC, the Van Gogh
Museum in Amsterdam, the Musée d'Orsay in Paris, and the Guggenheim
Museum in Bilbao."

Those are clearly museums, not galleries and they are correctly tagged
as museums. Sorry to say this, but that sentence clearly shows OP has
not understand what a gellery is. The wiki pages for tourism=gallery,
and shop=art do explain nicely what the difference is between those.

Source: I'm an art professor.
m.


On 2016년 02월 01일 20:56, Dave F wrote:
> Neither are really a direct alternative
> 
> Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum
> 
> Just because there are fewer 'gallery' than museum doesn't make it
> incorrect.
> 
> Just because galleries may be incorrectly tagged a 'museum' doesn't make
> them incorrect.
> 
> A shop selling art could be a sub tag of gallery (or maybe the other way
> around?)
> 
> I see no reason for discouraging tourism=galley.
> 
> Dave F.
> 
> 
> On 01/02/2016 19:28, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have created a proposal to discourage the tag tourism=gallery,
>> suggesting either shop=art or tourism=museum as an alternative.
>>
>> The proposal can be found here:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Discourage_tourism%3Dgallery
>>
>>
>> Please let me know what you think.
>>
>> -- Matthijs
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Max 

On 2016년 02월 02일 00:38, Max wrote:
> Browsing in the wiki I can see where all the confusion comes from.
> Basically the wiki is saying that anything showing art is a gallery,
> while the word museum is reserved for science and history.

Ironically the image in the wiki for tourism=museum shows the national
GALLERY. (which should be tagged museum, but the national gallery is
showing art which the wiki is not mentioning, only "exhibitions on
scientific, historical, cultural topics")
It's a mess.

> Obviously that's not the case and should be fixed.

I think there is a need for sub tags in tourism=museum so that we can
distinguish between a science, history, tech, or art museum.





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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Dave F 


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/museum#Noun


On 01/02/2016 21:49, Volker Schmidt wrote:
I always thought that an Art Gallery is a specific type of museum, 
i.e. an Art Museum. It can also mean a shop that exhibits and sells art.
Hence tourism=gallery seems a good way indicate an Art Museum or Art 
Gallery, in line with tourism=museum. A shop that exhibits art with 
the main aim of selling it is clearly a shop=art.


Volker



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Colin Smale 
Thanks Max - that sounds clear and objective to me, and from an informed
source. 

Why don't we just copy this text to the wiki so (with a bit of luck)
newly tagged museums/galleries/shops will follow this pattern. Then we
can discuss the relative merits of a wholesale retagging of the "legacy"
objects, or whether it is better to leave the existing tags in place. 

//colin

On 2016-02-01 23:10, Max wrote:

> No, that's not the difference.
> 
> A museum is an institution which shows art works so that the public can
> see them. The art works are usually by established artists. Shows are
> curated thematically by curators.
> 
> A gallery is showing art to the public. There is the possibility of
> purchase, but it is only a tiny fraction of the audience which actually
> is buying. The works are by artists the gallery represents. Shows are
> designed by the artist (with help or in collaboration with the gallerist).
> 
> An art shop is selling art(sy things). Visiting without buying is
> possible, just as you may walk through a supermarket without buying
> anything. The artworks are for sale are usually more on the craft side
> of the arts. They are of decorative nature and not of considerable worth
> on the art market. Art works may end there as second hand goods. The
> producers of these art works may not even know their work is in the
> shop. There is no special exhibition, concept or theme other than the
> intent of selling the goods.
> 
> On 2016년 02월 01일 22:49, Volker Schmidt wrote: 
> 
>> I always thought that an Art Gallery is a specific type of museum, i.e.
>> an Art Museum. It can also mean a shop that exhibits and sells art.
>> Hence tourism=gallery seems a good way indicate an Art Museum or Art
>> Gallery, in line with tourism=museum. A shop that exhibits art with the
>> main aim of selling it is clearly a shop=art.
>> 
>> Volker
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Max 
I've edited it a bit:

An art museum is an institution which shows artworks so that the public
can see them. The artworks are usually by established artists. Shows are
developed with a concept by curators. Artworks are from the museums
collection or on loan from other museums, galleries or private
collectors. The business model of an museum is based on public funding,
donations and ticket sales. Exhibitions are permanent collections and
temporary special exhibitions which run for a couple of months.
Depending on the available space, permanent and temporary exhibitions
are often simultaneously on display (in different rooms or levels).

A gallery is showing art to the public. There is the possibility of
purchase, but it is only a tiny fraction of the audience which actually
is buying. The works are by artists the gallery represents. Shows are
designed by the artist (with help or in collaboration with the
gallerist). Am exhibition consists typically of new work by the artist
is usually on display for a couple of weeks only. The business model of
an art gallery is based on the sales from the art. A gallery usually
gets a cut of up to 50% of the price of the artwork and is doing the
dealings with the art collector.

An art shop is selling art(sy things). Visiting without buying is
possible, just as you may walk through a supermarket without buying
anything. The artworks are for sale may be more on the craft side
of the arts. They usually are of decorative nature and not of
considerable worth on the art market.
Artworks may end there as second hand goods. The
producers of these artworks may not even know their work is in the
shop. There is no special exhibition, concept or theme other than the
intent of selling the goods.


On 2016년 02월 01일 23:24, Colin Smale wrote:
> Thanks Max - that sounds clear and objective to me, and from an informed
> source.
> 
> Why don't we just copy this text to the wiki so (with a bit of luck)
> newly tagged museums/galleries/shops will follow this pattern. Then we
> can discuss the relative merits of a wholesale retagging of the "legacy"
> objects, or whether it is better to leave the existing tags in place.
> 
> //colin
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> On 2016-02-01 23:10, Max wrote:
> 
>> No, that's not the difference.
>>
>> A museum is an institution which shows art works so that the public can
>> see them. The art works are usually by established artists. Shows are
>> curated thematically by curators.
>>
>> A gallery is showing art to the public. There is the possibility of
>> purchase, but it is only a tiny fraction of the audience which actually
>> is buying. The works are by artists the gallery represents. Shows are
>> designed by the artist (with help or in collaboration with the gallerist).
>>
>> An art shop is selling art(sy things). Visiting without buying is
>> possible, just as you may walk through a supermarket without buying
>> anything. The artworks are for sale are usually more on the craft side
>> of the arts. They are of decorative nature and not of considerable worth
>> on the art market. Art works may end there as second hand goods. The
>> producers of these art works may not even know their work is in the
>> shop. There is no special exhibition, concept or theme other than the
>> intent of selling the goods.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2016년 02월 01일 22:49, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>>> I always thought that an Art Gallery is a specific type of museum, i.e.
>>> an Art Museum. It can also mean a shop that exhibits and sells art.
>>> Hence tourism=gallery seems a good way indicate an Art Museum or Art
>>> Gallery, in line with tourism=museum. A shop that exhibits art with the
>>> main aim of selling it is clearly a shop=art.
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2016-02-02 0:57 GMT+01:00 Max :

> Ironically the image in the wiki for tourism=museum shows the national
> GALLERY. (which should be tagged museum, but the national gallery is
> showing art which the wiki is not mentioning, only "exhibitions on
> scientific, historical, cultural topics")
> It's a mess.
>
> > Obviously that's not the case and should be fixed.
>
> I think there is a need for sub tags in tourism=museum so that we can
> distinguish between a science, history, tech, or art museum.
>


actually if you call a gallery like the national gallery or the
Gemäldegalerie in Berlin an "art museum", you are not wrong, but you loose
one level of detail: a gallery as a kind of art museum only collects and
exhibits paintings, while more generic art museums might collect anything
related to art, like sculptures, video, paintings, prints, ...

2 problems with tourism=gallery: it is not clear, which kind of gallery is
intended, and either way "tourism" is not a nice key for these (neither is
it for museums).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Max 
On 2016년 02월 02일 01:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I think there is a need for sub tags in tourism=museum so that we can
> distinguish between a science, history, tech, or art museum.
> 
> actually if you call a gallery like the national gallery or the
> Gemäldegalerie in Berlin an "art museum", you are not wrong, but you
> loose one level of detail: a gallery as a kind of art museum only
> collects and exhibits paintings, while more generic art museums might
> collect anything related to art, like sculptures, video, paintings,
> prints, ...

I believe the German word "Galerie" is a short form for Gemäldegalerie
which is a place where paintings are on display.

However, the English word "Gallery" doesn't seem to have this specific
meaning. Mirriam-Webster includes "sculptures, etc"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gallery

> 2 problems with tourism=gallery: it is not clear, which kind of gallery
> is intended, and either way "tourism" is not a nice key for these
> (neither is it for museums).

What would be a proper way to tag this?


amenity=museum
museum=art


?





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Re: [Tagging] Defining tag 'natural=wood' ...

2016-02-01 Thread Mateusz Konieczny 
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 12:14:08 +1100
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


> Is there an improvement to be made here?

No, as any kind of wiki editing will not cause this tag to change
meaning from "area covered by trees".

This tag is used more than 3 000 000 times, in nearly all cases without
extensive research necessary to ensure that given area is "woodland
with no forestry".

Redefining tag without reviewing all its instances makes no sense.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Warin 

On 2/02/2016 1:56 PM, Max wrote:


On 2016년 02월 02일 01:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

 I think there is a need for sub tags in tourism=museum so that we can
 distinguish between a science, history, tech, or art museum.

actually if you call a gallery like the national gallery or the
Gemäldegalerie in Berlin an "art museum", you are not wrong, but you
loose one level of detail: a gallery as a kind of art museum only
collects and exhibits paintings, while more generic art museums might
collect anything related to art, like sculptures, video, paintings,
prints, ...

I believe the German word "Galerie" is a short form for Gemäldegalerie
which is a place where paintings are on display.

However, the English word "Gallery" doesn't seem to have this specific
meaning. Mirriam-Webster includes "sculptures, etc"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gallery


Picking nits;
Mirriam-Webster is American English.
OSM policy is to use British English ... so the Oxford Dictionary should be 
used.




2 problems with tourism=gallery: it is not clear, which kind of gallery
is intended,


Many many key/values are not precise in what is intended. That is why 'sub 
keys' are used.
'Sub keys' like width, height add detail. If you think a gallery needs more 
detail, add sub keys to it!


  and either way "tourism" is not a nice key for these
(neither is it for museums).


A 'nice key'?

Tourism? Visiting a place for pleasure? Looks to be the correct key to me!


What would be a proper way to tag this?


amenity=museum
museum=art


?


No. OSM amenity - important facilities.

Tourism is the correct key in this instance, a place that provides visual 
pleasure.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-01 Thread Greg Troxel 

Max  writes:

> An art museum is an institution which shows artworks so that the public
> can see them. The artworks are usually by established artists. Shows are
> developed with a concept by curators. Artworks are from the museums
> collection or on loan from other museums, galleries or private
> collectors. The business model of an museum is based on public funding,
> donations and ticket sales. Exhibitions are permanent collections and
> temporary special exhibitions which run for a couple of months.
> Depending on the available space, permanent and temporary exhibitions
> are often simultaneously on display (in different rooms or levels).
>
> A gallery is showing art to the public. There is the possibility of
> purchase, but it is only a tiny fraction of the audience which actually
> is buying. The works are by artists the gallery represents. Shows are
> designed by the artist (with help or in collaboration with the
> gallerist). Am exhibition consists typically of new work by the artist
> is usually on display for a couple of weeks only. The business model of
> an art gallery is based on the sales from the art. A gallery usually
> gets a cut of up to 50% of the price of the artwork and is doing the
> dealings with the art collector.
>
> An art shop is selling art(sy things). Visiting without buying is
> possible, just as you may walk through a supermarket without buying
> anything. The artworks are for sale may be more on the craft side
> of the arts. They usually are of decorative nature and not of
> considerable worth on the art market.
> Artworks may end there as second hand goods. The
> producers of these artworks may not even know their work is in the
> shop. There is no special exhibition, concept or theme other than the
> intent of selling the goods.

Most of the discussion participants seem European, so I wanted to chime
in that Max's dividing lines and rationale for these three things seem
100% right to me, as an American who visits Museums, has visited
galleries, sometimes on the invitation of exhibiting artists, and has
exhibited as an artist (photography, hobby).

I find the distinction above between gallery and shop=art to be somewhat
like amenity=cafe and amenity=fast_food.  I get the point about artist
curation in galleries, but in my view the key question is would another
artist consider it the kind of place that usually has proper art, vs a
Thomas Kincaid shop or a place with framed touristy posters, so there is
a significant aspect of a quality dividing line.

There's also a vague notion that works in a gallery are probably on
consignment (owned by the artist until a sale), whereas in a shop=art
they are more likely bought to be inventory.



Finally, there's a fourth entity, sort of, venues that are something
else but also exhibit art.  This happens both commerically an
non-commercially.

There is a restaurant near me that has a different artist each month,
with the artist selecting works and hanging them.  Unlike most
galleries, there is no commission; the restaurant owner both wants to
support artists and (I believe) make the restaurant seem connected to
the local art scene to make it more attractive to diners.  Several other
restaurants similarly show art, and I suspect some of them take a
commission.

Another type of exhibit venue is a room in a local library that
typically doesn't charge the artist or get involved in sales (the artist
puts up contact information); it's just free exhibit space for the sake
of having more art on display and supporting artists (who are viewed as
worthy of government charity).

In both examples, there is a main thing, restaurant or library, which
happens to have art displayed at least sometimes, but that's a detail.
So they are definitely not tourism=gallery.  They might be
amenity=restaurant gallery=yes, much like wifi=yes.


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