Re: [Tagging] railway=rail vs. railway=subway

2016-11-23 Thread Greg Troxel 

Michael Tsang  writes:

>> I don't follow this.  light rail is about the cars being lighter and
>> perhaps the rails being built to a lower weight limit, and it isn't
>> about grade crossings.  Around me there is real rail with fll-sized
>> enginers and is fully freight capable that has level crossings.
>> Definteliy not light_rail because of crossings.
>
> I should clarify that the level crossing of light rails should be not 
> actively 
> protected, i.e. do not have fences which come down before the train passes. 
> One of the major criteria between tram / light rail and metro / full-size 
> train is the ability to run within other traffic.

I think that's mostly accurate, but I think the real difference is in
the nature of the vehicle and the protection differences follow.

> Do you have any examples where a freight train have to wait for a red light 
> at 
> a street intersection, or runs on a stretch of street with motor traffic?

I do not.   Around me, real rail has grade crossings, but protected with
at least blinking red lights and usually crossing arms, and trains have
right of way.



signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=rail vs. railway=subway

2016-11-23 Thread Bill Ricker 
On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 9:26 AM, Richard Welty 
wrote:

>
> even more so, the MBTA considers the Green line a subway even though
> it's mostly above ground. i found this remarkably confusing when i took
> it into BU for a meeting a month or so back.
>

Right. ​MBTA distinguishes their lines as Commuter Rail ("Purple"),
Commuter boat (Fast Cat), Subway (4 colors red, green orange, blue), Bus
(including trackless trolley and LNG articulated) and ​Dedicated busway &
bus-lane (Silver Line) with articulated hybrid LNG/Trolley. Subway means
the 4 line interchanges in the central 4 underground subway stations, not
that it's in a tunnel or cut-and-cover trench for the entirety of the line.
All 4 have above ground stretches.  The oddly named "Mattapan High Speed
Line" (meaning it runs express between designated stops rather than tram
style streetcar) which is still running the vintage PCCs is the only
single-mode line in the system (aside from buses) - it has tram-style
trolley cars but has a light-rail style protected ROW all the way iirc,
including only run through a (single) cemetery in the country.

​The Orange Line used to be considered Elevated even though it had a subway
section, but now it's subway even though it has cut-no-cover and reused
heavy rail ROW sections. :-)​

-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1...@gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=rail vs. railway=subway

2016-11-23 Thread Bill Ricker 
On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Greg Troxel  wrote:

> > ​and the way magically transforms to railway=subway at the tunnel portal?
>
> This is the real difficulty.  One approach is to tag the 3 parts
> separately, and the other is to say that if individual trains run end to
> end, then there should be consistent tagging.
>

​If a Route relation is going to go end to end, I'd think consistency would
be nice.​


>
> So I would lean to railway=light_rail for the entire line, splitting the
> difference on both sides with subway and tram.
>
> Or, it could be reasonable to tag as subway/light_rail/tram as it
> changes.  These changing points are obvious on the ground (first grade
> crossing, and end of fences to keep cars off tracks).


​I'm trying to remember if it's still using catenary power in the ​tunnel
as it did in the old days (during initial transition from trolley to
pantograph), or if the GL tunnels now have 3rd rail.


-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1...@gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Bird Tower

2016-11-23 Thread markus schnalke 
Hoi,

after some last improvements during the RFC phase, we feel that
our Bird Tower proposal now is ready to be voted on.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Bird_Tower


Please participate in the voting to achieve a high turnout.


For the OSM group UlmerAlb,

meillo

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=rail vs. railway=subway

2016-11-23 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2016-11-23 17:26 GMT+01:00 Tod Fitch :

> Jack London Square in Oakland is a famous example:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki3QCZhacHY
>


the German version is a freight tram ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSng00n6hwQ

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] amenity=taxi on highway

2016-11-23 Thread Andy Townsend 

On 23/11/2016 16:10, Dave F wrote:
Why not both? They don't conflict. 


Sure - I can think of examples which are an office where the taxis wait 
outside, but also places which are an office where you'd have to 
actually go somewhere else to actually get in the taxi.


Cheers,

Andy


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=rail vs. railway=subway

2016-11-23 Thread Tod Fitch 

> On Nov 23, 2016, at 7:45 AM, Michael Tsang  wrote:
> 
> I should clarify that the level crossing of light rails should be not 
> actively 
> protected, i.e. do not have fences which come down before the train passes. 
> One of the major criteria between tram / light rail and metro / full-size 
> train is the ability to run within other traffic.
> 
> Do you have any examples where a freight train have to wait for a red light 
> at 
> a street intersection, or runs on a stretch of street with motor traffic?
> 

Jack London Square in Oakland is a famous example: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki3QCZhacHY



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] amenity=taxi on highway

2016-11-23 Thread Dave F 

Why not both? They don't conflict.


On 23/11/2016 14:23, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 23/11/2016 13:43, Dave F wrote:
... it can also be an office where you book with a receptionist & 
then wait. 


Personally I'd go for "office=taxi" for that, though taginfo suggests 
relatively little use:


http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=taxi#values

(there's also "shop=taxi" in there too)

Cheers,

Andy


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=rail vs. railway=subway

2016-11-23 Thread Michael Tsang 
> I don't follow this.  light rail is about the cars being lighter and
> perhaps the rails being built to a lower weight limit, and it isn't
> about grade crossings.  Around me there is real rail with fll-sized
> enginers and is fully freight capable that has level crossings.
> Definteliy not light_rail because of crossings.

I should clarify that the level crossing of light rails should be not actively 
protected, i.e. do not have fences which come down before the train passes. 
One of the major criteria between tram / light rail and metro / full-size 
train is the ability to run within other traffic.

Do you have any examples where a freight train have to wait for a red light at 
a street intersection, or runs on a stretch of street with motor traffic?

Michael
-- 
Sent from KMail


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] amenity=taxi on highway

2016-11-23 Thread Michael Tsang 
On Wednesday 23 November 2016 14:08:14 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2016-11-22 16:43 GMT+01:00 Michael Tsang :
> > Dear all,
> > 
> > amenity=taxi is defined as a place where taxis wait for passengers. Does
> > that
> > mean it should be placed on a highway where taxis can access?
> 
> no, it is used (where applicable) for "taxi stations", typically these are
> a bunch of parking lots reserved for taxis (with often taxis waiting there
> for customers, sometimes with a dedicated "taxi telephone" or similar).

I have a question then, actually the waiting area for taxis is directly on the 
street, with no physical barrier between the waiting area and the carriageway. 
In this case, should the node be placed on the highway then?

Michael

-- 
Sent from KMail


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=rail vs. railway=subway

2016-11-23 Thread Richard Welty 
On 11/23/16 9:09 AM, Greg Troxel wrote:
>
> One of the tricky things, as Bill Ricker points out downthread, is
> Boston's Green line. This is fundamentally light rail. Sometimes it
> runs in tunnels. Sometimes it runs in a fenced-off median but does
> have level crossings. These are controlled by stoplights (for both
> train and cars), rather than train-priority crossing gates. And
> sometimes it runs on tracks in the street where cars also drive. 
even more so, the MBTA considers the Green line a subway even though
it's mostly above ground. i found this remarkably confusing when i took
it into BU for a meeting a month or so back.

richard

-- 
rwe...@averillpark.net
 Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting
 OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
 Java - Web Applications - Search




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] amenity=taxi on highway

2016-11-23 Thread Andy Townsend 

On 23/11/2016 13:43, Dave F wrote:
... it can also be an office where you book with a receptionist & then 
wait. 


Personally I'd go for "office=taxi" for that, though taginfo suggests 
relatively little use:


http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=taxi#values

(there's also "shop=taxi" in there too)

Cheers,

Andy


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=rail vs. railway=subway

2016-11-23 Thread Greg Troxel 

Bill Ricker  writes:

> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 10:08 PM, Michael Tsang  wrote:
>
>> > Oh really. Boston MBTA green line is a subway line that extends onto
>> > surface streets. Not full rail gauge iirc (though other lines are) and
>> > neither surface or tunnel curves could handle freight cars. The surface
>> > trolley portions that run down boulevard median are direct line
>> extensions
>> > of the tunnel line but do have grade crossings at boulevard stoplights.
>> Then I think it should be railway=light_rail
>
> ​and the way magically transforms to railway=subway at the tunnel portal?

This is the real difficulty.  One approach is to tag the 3 parts
separately, and the other is to say that if individual trains run end to
end, then there should be consistent tagging.

So I would lean to railway=light_rail for the entire line, splitting the
difference on both sides with subway and tram.

Or, it could be reasonable to tag as subway/light_rail/tram as it
changes.  These changing points are obvious on the ground (first grade
crossing, and end of fences to keep cars off tracks).




signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=rail vs. railway=subway

2016-11-23 Thread Greg Troxel 

Michael Tsang  writes:

> - Railway with long distance and commuter trains: railway=rail

ok

> - Railway with metro services only: railway=subway

+0

> - Railway with street intersection: railway=light_rail

I don't follow this.  light rail is about the cars being lighter and
perhaps the rails being built to a lower weight limit, and it isn't
about grade crossings.  Around me there is real rail with fll-sized
enginers and is fully freight capable that has level crossings.
Definteliy not light_rail because of crossings.

> - Railway mainly with tracks embedded on the street: railway=tram

agreed.

One of the tricky things, as Bill Ricker points out downthread, is
Boston's Green line.  This is fundamentally light rail. Sometimes it
runs in tunnels.  Sometimes it runs in a fenced-off median but does have
level crossings.  These are controlled by stoplights (for both train and
cars), rather than train-priority crossing gates.  And sometimes it runs
on tracks in the street where cars also drive.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing zones?

2016-11-23 Thread Greg Troxel 

Blake Girardot  writes:

 I think issues of does the data belong in OSM are separate issues, I
 am just interested in how to map it and tag it well. I would be
 mapping nothing but ground truthed data that we already map every day,
 trees and light poles and ground type, landuse. It is publicly
 available data (CC0).
>>
>> Sure, that's fine, but beware that you are perhaps verging on an import.
>
> For sure not an import in my mind (6 points at the moment,hand mapped
> from a ground survey form which includes a picture of the HLZ from
> directly overhead), but happy to take the consensus here if I should
> treat it as an import and hopefully with the tagging figured out, any
> "near import" would be generally accepted through that full process.

If you are talking 6 points, and you the human are looking at all 6, and
someone checking them (even with just imagery), then this isn't an
import.  If you had 100 and used a script and spot-checked, you'd be
over the line.   I just couldn't tell and wanted to point this out in
case.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] amenity=taxi on highway

2016-11-23 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2016-11-23 14:43 GMT+01:00 Dave F :

> As well as on allotted street parking where customers queue for a taxi, it
> can also be an office where you book with a receptionist & then wait.



+1, sorry for omitting this kind of also quite diffuse taxi places.
Basically amenity=taxi is any dedicated place where you can get a taxi, it
is not to be added to all streets where you might be able to get an empty
passing taxi on the fly by waving your hand.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] amenity=taxi on highway

2016-11-23 Thread Dave F 
As well as on allotted street parking where customers queue for a taxi, 
it can also be an office where you book with a receptionist & then wait.


DaveF

On 22/11/2016 15:43, Michael Tsang wrote:

Dear all,

amenity=taxi is defined as a place where taxis wait for passengers. Does that
mean it should be placed on a highway where taxis can access?

Michael



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] amenity=taxi on highway

2016-11-23 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2016-11-22 16:43 GMT+01:00 Michael Tsang :

> Dear all,
>
> amenity=taxi is defined as a place where taxis wait for passengers. Does
> that
> mean it should be placed on a highway where taxis can access?
>


no, it is used (where applicable) for "taxi stations", typically these are
a bunch of parking lots reserved for taxis (with often taxis waiting there
for customers, sometimes with a dedicated "taxi telephone" or similar).

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=rail vs. railway=subway

2016-11-23 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2016-11-23 1:10 GMT+01:00 Bill Ricker :

> > railway=subway are usually encapsulated systems which may have a
> > connecting track if new vehicles are delivered and both systems have the
> > same gauge. railway=subway systems don't have level crossings.
>
> Oh really. Boston MBTA green line is a subway line that extends onto
> surface streets. Not full rail gauge iirc (though other lines are) and
> neither surface or tunnel curves could handle freight cars. The surface
> trolley portions that run down boulevard median are direct line extensions
> of the tunnel line but do have grade crossings at boulevard stoplights.
>


this subway line probably shouldn't get the railway=subway tag, as it isn't
separated from other traffic, like the wiki requires: "Rails used for city
public transport that are always completely separated from other traffic,
usually underground."

Similarly, in Germany most cities do have "U-Bahn"s (subways) that aren't
true subways, but are (legally) trams or light_rail.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=rail vs. railway=subway

2016-11-23 Thread jc86035 
Assuming that the currently under-construction extensions to the lines
(the Sha Tin to Central Link) also have a similar loading gauge, should
they (East and West Rail Lines, Ma On Shan Line and Sha Tin to Central
Link) then all be tagged railway=rail?

For what it's worth, Centamap (non-free map with government source)
displays most of the three open lines as a black line with white
stripes, but interestingly with the Kowloon Southern Link (a 2009
extension) in a light blue with white stripes like the other MTR lines.
Maybe it's just because it was opened by the MTR after the merger of the
two systems.

jc86035

Michael Reichert:
> Hi,
> 
> railway=* should depend on the infrastructure only. The services which
> use the track, don't matter.
> 
> Am 22.11.2016 um 15:41 schrieb Michael Tsang:
>> On Tuesday 22 November 2016 11:28:00 jc86035 wrote:
>>> Should a commuter rail system with rapid transit frequency but main
>>> line-standard tracks be tagged as railway=subway or railway=rail?
>>>
>>> In Hong Kong, the MTR metro system has an "urban" set of DC 1432mm-gauge
>>> lines, and another set of AC standard gauge lines (East Rail Line, West
>>> Rail Line and Ma On Shan Line) connected to the Guangzhou–Shenzhen railway.
>>
>> "Use railway=rail for full sized passenger or freight trains in the standard 
>> gauge for the country or state.
>> railway=rail is the largest railway classification, for full-blown 
>> full-sized 
>> railways."
>>
>> My interpretation of the above rule is that, if the section of the railway 
>> is 
>> capable for running long distance trains, it should be tagged as 
>> railway=rail. 
>> Therefore, East Rail Line in Hong Kong is definitely railway=rail because 
>> long 
>> distance and freight trains also run on it.
> 
> I agree up to here.
> 
>> In my opinion, even the metro-only 
>> sections of East Rail Line where long distance trains do not run should be 
>> tagged as railway=rail because they belongs to the same railway with the 
>> same 
>> standard.
> 
> If the metro-only sections have a wide structure gauge which would
> permit long distance and freight trains to use it (tunnels wide instead
> of narrow), they should be tagged railway=rail. But if the tracks can
> only be used by metro trains, they should be tagged railway=subway.
> 
> Metro tunnels are usually more narrow than tunnels for full sized
> passenger trains because building wide tunnels is more expensive.
> 
>> Normally I consider the nature of the train running on the railway to get 
>> the 
>> appropriate railway=* value.
>>
>> - Railway with long distance and commuter trains: railway=rail
>> - Railway with metro services only: railway=subway
> 
> railway=subway are usually encapsulated systems which may have a
> connecting track if new vehicles are delivered and both systems have the
> same gauge. railway=subway systems don't have level crossings.
> 
> Finally, you cannot write a fix rules which is suitable for every
> country and every city. In some cases you have to make exceptions from
> the fixed rules. I think that metro-only tracks in Hong Kong should be
> tagged as railway=subway even if they are connected to full-sized
> railway tracks.
> 
> You can use route=subway for the route relations to indicate that it is
> a metro-like service with metro-like vehicles.
> 
>> - Railway with street intersection: railway=light_rail
>> - Railway mainly with tracks embedded on the street: railway=tram
> 
> +1
> 
>>> One of the standard gauge lines (Ma On Shan Line: short distance between
>>> stations and low speed) was always tagged with railway=subway, but some
>>> time ago I retagged the West Rail Line (commuter rail with long distance
>>> between stations) with railway=subway, as well as the sections of the
>>> East Rail Line without intercity train service (without asking anyone).
>>> Should the lines be retagged as railway=rail, since they're not really
>>> subway/metro lines?
>>
>> For Ma On Shan Line and West Rail Line, there is a bit ambiguity. The trains 
>> running on them are full sized passenger trains in the standard gauge, but 
>> they are metro trains in all aspects, even all the technical standards are 
>> comparable to main line standards. In fact, West Rail Line was planned to 
>> have 
>> long-distance trains and freight trains at the beginning, if this were to 
>> become true, it would be re-tagged as railway=rail. However, the plan was 
>> dropped and in the forseeable future only metro services would be run on 
>> West 
>> Rail Line so I prefer railway=subway in this case. Ma On Shan Line is 
>> designed 
>> to have only metro service so it is definitely railway=subway, but because 
>> it 
>> will be connected with West Rail Line so it was built to same full size 
>> technical standard.
> 
> If the infrastructure can be used by full sized passenger trains, it's
> always railway=rail. It's not that strange that light rail services use
> railway=rail tracks. Have a look at the light rail line from