Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

[Phake Nick]

Problem with applying different road classification system from different
places with their individual tags onto local roads is that:
1. Even if we ignore countries that have different rules within different
part of a single country, there are still about 200 countries in this
world. Each of them having different road classification values, supposedly
each country should have at least a few different levels, would mean there
are thousand of different values that data consumer or renderer or routing
engine and such need to handle and process, which is a pretty big task for
anyone who wish to use these data. It also make inter-country data
comparison difficult or impossible.
2. It will be difficult for a mapper from country A to map for country B
which might be less mapped through means like satellite mapping, video
mapping or site visit, as the mapper would need to familiar themselves with
local classification instead of applying universal standards onto them.
3. Road classification system within each single country is not always
static. Country sovereignty on localities are not static either. When
either of that change, you would need to re-tag every single road in that
place or that country to the new standard if you decided to introduce
country-specific tagging, which would be a very big task.
4. If you are going to setup a table to tell people which road level in
which country is equal to what in other countries, then why not just tell
people with a table that these roads which are tagged with universal tags
corresponds to those level in local classification?
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Warin]

On 20/12/19 17:18, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:



Il ven 20 dic 2019, 01:16 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> ha scritto:


On 20/12/19 10:15, Chris Hill wrote:


I have been a native British English speaker for about sixty
years. A trip from A to B and then back to A, either on a fully
reversed route or an alternative route, would could be described
as a round trip. There is certainly no element of a curved or
looping route required to make it a round trip.



Nor is there anything in 'round trip' to exclude a curved circular
route. Would be interesting to find the origin of 'round trip'.


HTH

Chris

-- 
cheers

Chris Hill (chillly)
On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:

Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are
dictionary for American English, not the variant of English used
by OSM. Posts by original author of the topic on the wiki talk
page have explained the meaning of the term in British English.

在 2019年12月20日週五 06:19，Francesco Ansanelli
mailto:franci...@gmail.com>> 寫道：



Il gio 19 dic 2019, 23:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> ha scritto:

On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the
closed loop proposal
> in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>
> Please let me know what you think
>

The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip'
could be a circular


I'm not a mother tongue but:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/round%20trip


Definition of /round trip/

: a trip to a place and back usually over the same route



Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English):
a journey to a place and back again

Nothing about 'over the same route'.


But also not the circular word...



https://www.thefreedictionary.com/roundtrip


A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the
same route.
https://www.yourdictionary.com/round-trip


round trip

noun

A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the
same route.
Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.

route that does not go from A to B and back along the
same route, it
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such
your rewording is
wrong and does not match present use.

Revert your change.


How about a voting?



You may have done that before your change.


Sorry for being "rude"... When in Rome...


As I understand it you want to distinguish between routes that use
the same route to return to the same place compared to those
routes that return to the same place by a different route or at
least sections are different.
At present both of those are in OSMs 'roundtrip'. Would not this
information be obtained by looking at the route as mapped in OSM?


I think a tag may enforce it



So all the existing round trips will have to be deleted or re-tagged 
with something else .. as they may not meet this definition. I know the 
route I have tagged round trip doers not, so to avoid incorrect data 
they will all have to be deleted.
All the past editors who have learnt the old definition will probably 
continue to use it from the old definition - meaning errors will be 
constantly introduced.

The editors may have top be rejigged too.


Is there a need to add this information?



By that I mean renders may determine it for themselves using the OSM 
data? If so then this tag is of no real use.

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip#loop

A bus that goes from A to B and returns 'using the same route' will have 
to turn around .. and that turning will not be using the same route .. 
so it does not meet a strict definition of 'using the same route'.


There are too many problems introduced by this new definition of roundtrip.

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

[Mateusz Konieczny]

20 Dec 2019, 01:25 by ba...@ursamundi.org:

> So, for example, in the US, instead of motorway, trunk, primary, secondary, 
> tertiary, perhaps something more like freeway, expressway, 
> major/minor_principal (just having this would fix a *lot* of problems with 
> Texas and Missouri and their extensive secondary systems), 
> major/minor_collector...the US just has a way more complex view of how 
> highways work.  
>
> Or at least some more serious consideration given to the proposal at > 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:UltimateRiff/HFCS>  (but perhaps 
> with "other principal arterials" as primary and a new "highway=quartinary".
>
Fitting thing like road classification
into UK system is irritating at times.

But idea of each country with separate tags
for roads is simply a bad idea.

This info is probably worth recording,
but legal status should go into a separate tag.

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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Il ven 20 dic 2019, 01:16 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> On 20/12/19 10:15, Chris Hill wrote:
>
> I have been a native British English speaker for about sixty years. A trip
> from A to B and then back to A, either on a fully reversed route or an
> alternative route, would could be described as a round trip. There is
> certainly no element of a curved or looping route required to make it a
> round trip.
>
>
> Nor is there anything in 'round trip' to exclude a curved circular route.
> Would be interesting to find the origin of 'round trip'.
>
> HTH
>
> Chris
>
> --
> cheers
> Chris Hill (chillly)
>
> On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
>
> Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary
> for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by
> original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the
> meaning of the term in British English.
>
> 在 2019年12月20日週五 06:19，Francesco Ansanelli  寫道：
>
>>
>>
>> Il gio 19 dic 2019, 23:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>>
>>> On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
>>> > Dear List,
>>> >
>>> > I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal
>>> > in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
>>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>>> >
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>>> >
>>> > Please let me know what you think
>>> >
>>>
>>> The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip' could be a circular
>>>
>>
>> I'm not a mother tongue but:
>>
>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/round%20trip
>> Definition of *round trip*
>> : a trip to a place and back usually over the same route
>>
>
> Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English): a
> journey to a place and back again
>
> Nothing about 'over the same route'.
>

But also not the circular word...

>
>
> https://www.thefreedictionary.com/roundtrip
>>
>>
>> A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
>> https://www.yourdictionary.com/round-trip
>>
>> round trip
>>
>> noun
>> A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
>> Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.
>>
>> route that does not go from A to B and back along the same route, it
>>> could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your rewording is
>>> wrong and does not match present use.
>>>
>>> Revert your change.
>>>
>>
>> How about a voting?
>>
>
> You may have done that before your change.
>

Sorry for being "rude"... When in Rome...


> As I understand it you want to distinguish between routes that use the
> same route to return to the same place compared to those routes that return
> to the same place by a different route or at least sections are different.
> At present both of those are in OSMs 'roundtrip'. Would not this
> information be obtained by looking at the route as mapped in OSM?
>

I think a tag may enforce it

Is there a need to add this information?
>

If you split a segment in future a validator may say route with
closed_loop=yes not a loop...
A Roundtrip could be simply tagged and mapped in one direction in my opinion


>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Il ven 20 dic 2019, 04:21 Graeme Fitzpatrick  ha
scritto:

>
>
>
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 10:37, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way.
>>
>
> Sorry, Martin, not at all. I do a weekly round trip of ~38 klm - roughly
> 13 k down & 15 k back, mainly because I leave the Motorway at exit 92 but
> have to come back on at exit 95. & if the Motorway is too busy that day, I
> may well come home up the Highway, which will be 12 k home (but 15 minutes
> longer time), but it's still a "round trip"
>
> Also, what is the definition of "same way"?
>

I think that if your return change some way (how about a one way in
departure? You may not do the same segment literally) but it's almost the
same route, it's completely different from a loop...


> I travel down the southbound lanes of the Motorway & come back up the
> northern lanes, about 100 m's away from where I travelled down - is that
> the "same"?
>
>   Thanks
>
> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Peter Elderson]

I think roundtrip is not about the route taken, but about the transport taking 
you somewhere, you do your thing there, then transport back to where you 
started. It's more like a service kind of thing. I don't use it when the 
relation shows exactly what the route is. I only find it useful to indicate 
that a route should be regarded as a roundtrip, even though the relation 
contains branches, excursions or shortcuts.

For hiking, a hiking route A to B waymarked in two directions is not a 
roundtrip. A hiking route ending where you started when you follow one 
direction all the time, may be seen as a roundtrip, because the 'transport' 
takes you back to back to to starting point. 

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 20 dec. 2019 om 04:21 heeft Graeme Fitzpatrick  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 10:37, Martin Koppenhoefer  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way.
> 
> Sorry, Martin, not at all. I do a weekly round trip of ~38 klm - roughly 13 k 
> down & 15 k back, mainly because I leave the Motorway at exit 92 but have to 
> come back on at exit 95. & if the Motorway is too busy that day, I may well 
> come home up the Highway, which will be 12 k home (but 15 minutes longer 
> time), but it's still a "round trip"
> 
> Also, what is the definition of "same way"? 
> 
> I travel down the southbound lanes of the Motorway & come back up the 
> northern lanes, about 100 m's away from where I travelled down - is that the 
> "same"?
> 
>   Thanks
> 
> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 10:37, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way.
>

Sorry, Martin, not at all. I do a weekly round trip of ~38 klm - roughly 13
k down & 15 k back, mainly because I leave the Motorway at exit 92 but have
to come back on at exit 95. & if the Motorway is too busy that day, I may
well come home up the Highway, which will be 12 k home (but 15 minutes
longer time), but it's still a "round trip"

Also, what is the definition of "same way"?

I travel down the southbound lanes of the Motorway & come back up the
northern lanes, about 100 m's away from where I travelled down - is that
the "same"?

  Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Warin]

On 20/12/19 11:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 20. Dec 2019, at 01:16, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English): a journey to 
a place and back again


it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way.


Why does it make it likely? I don't see it.

I think I have only used it on a public transport route.

In any event .. these properties could be determined using the ways that make 
up the route. So why is it necessary to tag it?
Is work being made for mappers that can be easily determined by the renders?



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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Dec 2019, at 01:16, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English): a journey 
> to a place and back again


it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way. The word 
“Rundweg” which apparently was the concept that should have been defined (IIRC 
our former discussions about this topic) would not correctly be translated as 
roundtrip, despite the similar wording. Closed loop would have my support 
(although I also agree that it should generally be in the geometry of the 
route, personally I would not bother adding a special property for it, also 
because I am less interested in official start and end points or “checkpoints” 
in the middle)

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 1:19 PM Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> I actually like your suggestion that highway=trunk does not add much value
> to the U.S. map, Eric.
> We love to add detail / granularity to OSM so much, it can become hard to
> envisage taking some away.
> Not saying we should abolish trunk right here and now, but something I'd
> consider as one outcome.
>

I'd like to see a lot more left up to the data consumer and more regional
values to be widely acceptable.  For example, instead of trying to smash
the entire planet into the UK's prescribed values and trying to come up
with equivalences, use the terminology each country uses.  So, for example,
in the US, instead of motorway, trunk, primary, secondary, tertiary,
perhaps something more like freeway, expressway, major/minor_principal
(just having this would fix a *lot* of problems with Texas and Missouri and
their extensive secondary systems), major/minor_collector...the US just has
a way more complex view of how highways work.

Or at least some more serious consideration given to the proposal at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:UltimateRiff/HFCS (but perhaps
with "other principal arterials" as primary and a new "highway=quartinary".

Much like moving route refs to highway relations (freeing the ref=* tag on
highways for situations where the road and the route have different refs),
leaving the mental gymnastics up to an algorithm and leaving less confusion
to the mapper is getting to be long overdue.
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Warin]

On 20/12/19 10:15, Chris Hill wrote:


I have been a native British English speaker for about sixty years. A 
trip from A to B and then back to A, either on a fully reversed route 
or an alternative route, would could be described as a round trip. 
There is certainly no element of a curved or looping route required to 
make it a round trip.




Nor is there anything in 'round trip' to exclude a curved circular 
route. Would be interesting to find the origin of 'round trip'.


HTH

Chris

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)
On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are 
dictionary for American English, not the variant of English used by 
OSM. Posts by original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have 
explained the meaning of the term in British English.


在 2019年12月20日週五 06:19，Francesco Ansanelli > 寫道：




Il gio 19 dic 2019, 23:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> ha scritto:

On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed
loop proposal
> in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>
> Please let me know what you think
>

The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip' could be
a circular


I'm not a mother tongue but:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/round%20trip


Definition of /round trip/

: a trip to a place and back usually over the same route



Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English): a 
journey to a place and back again


Nothing about 'over the same route'.


https://www.thefreedictionary.com/roundtrip


A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same
route.
https://www.yourdictionary.com/round-trip


round trip

noun

A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same
route.
Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.

route that does not go from A to B and back along the same
route, it
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your
rewording is
wrong and does not match present use.

Revert your change.


How about a voting?



You may have done that before your change.

As I understand it you want to distinguish between routes that use the 
same route to return to the same place compared to those routes that 
return to the same place by a different route or at least sections are 
different.
At present both of those are in OSMs 'roundtrip'. Would not this 
information be obtained by looking at the route as mapped in OSM? Is 
there a need to add this information?




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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Chris Hill]

I have been a native British English speaker for about sixty years. A 
trip from A to B and then back to A, either on a fully reversed route or 
an alternative route, would could be described as a round trip. There is 
certainly no element of a curved or looping route required to make it a 
round trip.


HTH

Chris

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are 
dictionary for American English, not the variant of English used by 
OSM. Posts by original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have 
explained the meaning of the term in British English.


在 2019年12月20日週五 06:19，Francesco Ansanelli > 寫道：




Il gio 19 dic 2019, 23:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> ha scritto:

On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed
loop proposal
> in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>
> Please let me know what you think
>

The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip' could be a
circular


I'm not a mother tongue but:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/round%20trip


Definition of /round trip/

: a trip to a place and back usually over the same route
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/roundtrip


A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same
route.
https://www.yourdictionary.com/round-trip


round trip

noun

A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same
route.
Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.

route that does not go from A to B and back along the same
route, it
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your
rewording is
wrong and does not match present use.

Revert your change.


How about a voting?


If you want to signify a route that goes from A to B and back
along the
same route invent another tag, roundtrip is not it.



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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Phake Nick]

Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary for
American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by original
author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the meaning of the
term in British English.

在 2019年12月20日週五 06:19，Francesco Ansanelli  寫道：

>
>
> Il gio 19 dic 2019, 23:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
>> > Dear List,
>> >
>> > I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal
>> > in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>> >
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>> >
>> > Please let me know what you think
>> >
>>
>> The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip' could be a circular
>>
>
> I'm not a mother tongue but:
>
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/round%20trip
> Definition of *round trip*
>
> : a trip to a place and back usually over the same route
> https://www.thefreedictionary.com/roundtrip
>
>
> A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
> https://www.yourdictionary.com/round-trip
>
> round trip
>
> noun
> A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
> Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.
>
> route that does not go from A to B and back along the same route, it
>> could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your rewording is
>> wrong and does not match present use.
>>
>> Revert your change.
>>
>
> How about a voting?
>
>
>> If you want to signify a route that goes from A to B and back along the
>> same route invent another tag, roundtrip is not it.
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Il gio 19 dic 2019, 23:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:
> > Dear List,
> >
> > I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal
> > in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
> >
> > Please let me know what you think
> >
>
> The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip' could be a circular
>

I'm not a mother tongue but:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/round%20trip
Definition of *round trip*

: a trip to a place and back usually over the same route
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/roundtrip


A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
https://www.yourdictionary.com/round-trip

round trip

noun
A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.

route that does not go from A to B and back along the same route, it
> could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your rewording is
> wrong and does not match present use.
>
> Revert your change.
>

How about a voting?


> If you want to signify a route that goes from A to B and back along the
> same route invent another tag, roundtrip is not it.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Warin]

On 20/12/19 01:16, Francesco Ansanelli wrote:

Dear List,

I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal 
in order to address the misuse of the first tag:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes

Please let me know what you think



The word 'round' implies circular. So a 'roundtrip' could be a circular 
route that does not go from A to B and back along the same route, it 
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your rewording is 
wrong and does not match present use.


Revert your change.

If you want to signify a route that goes from A to B and back along the 
same route invent another tag, roundtrip is not it.


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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Peter Elderson]

If a route ends where it begins, it's a roundtrip, but you don't need to tag 
that because it's in the relation. The only thing I find useful is tagging 
roundtrip=yes when the route is not a true closed loop, but still catalogues 
for hikers as a roundtrip, even though it may have branches and shortcuts.

For automated checks closed_loop=yes might come in handy. If the tag is there 
but the route is not a true closed loop, it needs maintenance in OSM.

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 19 dec. 2019 om 22:40 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer  
> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 19. Dec 2019, at 22:16, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>> 
>> you have changed the meaning of the tag from inluding the possibility of a 
>> loop to exluding it.
> 
> it may be too early to change definitions, but previous discussions have 
> shown that there was confusion about the roundtrip tag also before, and the 
> definition that start and end of the route have to be the same is also 
> satisfied with actual roundtrips (A-B and back).
> IMHO we should discourage the roundtrip tag altogether and establish 
> alternative tags for the cases that should be covered (loops and back and 
> forth or oneway) if they are required.
> 
> Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Dec 2019, at 21:23, Florimond Berthoux  
> wrote:
> 
> It's to tag the access to this new kind of bicycle parking designed
> for cargo bikes in Paris
> https://framapic.org/w4zmjIvtoxim/1qsfbMKa1iVI.jpg
> I'd like to have the word for all the kinds of those bicycle type not
> just a part of them.


what’s the legal definition for this kind of bicycle in France? Are there 
minimum/maximum dimensions? Number of wheels? 

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Dec 2019, at 22:16, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> you have changed the meaning of the tag from inluding the possibility of a 
> loop to exluding it.

it may be too early to change definitions, but previous discussions have shown 
that there was confusion about the roundtrip tag also before, and the 
definition that start and end of the route have to be the same is also 
satisfied with actual roundtrips (A-B and back).
IMHO we should discourage the roundtrip tag altogether and establish 
alternative tags for the cases that should be covered (loops and back and forth 
or oneway) if they are required.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

[Volker Schmidt]

We have a somewhat related problem her in Italy. Cycleways and in
particular foot-cycleways are full of chicane-type of bicycle barriers,
where a normal bicycle passes, maybe with the cyclist putting the feet on
the ground, but tandems, cargo-bikes or bikes with baggage trailers (very
popular with foreign cycle tourists) don't pass.
Yours would be a (legal) vehicle type access tag. "Mine" would be an access
tag based on physical dimensions with the added drawback that it is a wooly
definition, as the mentioned types of bikes come in different sizes.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 22:00, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> In the USA we call them “cargo bikes”. This would translate bakfiets in
> the Netherlanders Which have a bucket up front, as well as “long-tail”
> cargo bikes which carry the kids or stuff behind the rider, and cargo
> trikes too.
>
> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a25054215/best-cargo-bikes/
>
> -Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 5:23 AM Florimond Berthoux <
> florimond.berth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> What's the english word for this kind of bicycle
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freight_bicycle ?
>> It's to tag the access to this new kind of bicycle parking designed
>> for cargo bikes in Paris
>> https://framapic.org/w4zmjIvtoxim/1qsfbMKa1iVI.jpg
>> I'd like to have the word for all the kinds of those bicycle type not
>> just a part of them.
>> Taginfo doesn't help me here.
>>
>> Tags would be :
>> amenity=bicycle_parking
>> [english for freight bicycle]=designated
>>
>> The access key could be use also for other features like ramp,
>> barrier, elevator...
>>
>> --
>> Florimond Berthoux
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Volker Schmidt]

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 21:45, Francesco Ansanelli 
wrote:

>
>
> Il gio 19 dic 2019, 21:28 Phake Nick  ha scritto:
>
>> The current usage is that, "Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that the start
>> and finish of the route are at the same location". As in a route from Paris
>> to Milano to Frankfurt then back to Paris would be tagged as roundtrip=yes.
>> You have edited the wiki against established usage to make it become a no.
>> A word used as a key isn't perfect doesn't mean you can suddenly edit the
>> wiki to change its definition without regard of all the established usage
>> in the osm database.
>>
>
> The question is, current tagging respect original author intention?
> Unlucky Roundtrip change meaning between American and British English
> afaict.
> I've discussed also with another mapper and we agreed to fix wiki in order
> to avoid further misunderstandings.
>
>
>
>> 在 2019年12月20日週五 01:21，Francesco Ansanelli  寫道：
>>
>>> Dear Volker,
>>>
>>> I haven't change the meaning of Roundtrip, but just reworded to clarify
>>> it.
>>> Roundtrip yes is not a closed loop...
>>> Please check this discussion:
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip#loop
>>>
>> Francesco,
you have changed the meaning of the tag from inluding the possibility of a
loop to exluding it. And I am aware of a number of (cycling) routes that
are loops and that are tagged with roundtrip=yes accordng to the previous
version of the wiki.
Please revert the wiki.

Furthermore with your new defintion practially or at least many cycle
routes are roundrip routes even though everyone would consdere them as
linear routes. Nearly all "linear" bicycle routes to which I contributed
can be ridden as roundtrip in the sense that they are signposted in both
directions, and care has been taken in those sections where the forward and
the backward route are different by using the foreward|backward roles. The
(fewer) routes with loop geometry as well can be ridden in either
direction.

Volker


>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Francesco
>>>
>>>
>>> Il gio 19 dic 2019, 15:40 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:
>>>
 Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal  as such.

 Please do not change the meaning of an established tag.
 roundtrip=yes|no is used about 34k times, based on a different definition,
 see
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Relations

 Volker

 On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli 
 wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal
> in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>
> Please let me know what you think
>
> Many thanks
> Best regards
> Francesco
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

In the USA we call them “cargo bikes”. This would translate bakfiets in the
Netherlanders Which have a bucket up front, as well as “long-tail” cargo
bikes which carry the kids or stuff behind the rider, and cargo trikes too.

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a25054215/best-cargo-bikes/

-Joseph Eisenberg

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 5:23 AM Florimond Berthoux <
florimond.berth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> What's the english word for this kind of bicycle
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freight_bicycle ?
> It's to tag the access to this new kind of bicycle parking designed
> for cargo bikes in Paris
> https://framapic.org/w4zmjIvtoxim/1qsfbMKa1iVI.jpg
> I'd like to have the word for all the kinds of those bicycle type not
> just a part of them.
> Taginfo doesn't help me here.
>
> Tags would be :
> amenity=bicycle_parking
> [english for freight bicycle]=designated
>
> The access key could be use also for other features like ramp,
> barrier, elevator...
>
> --
> Florimond Berthoux
>
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Il gio 19 dic 2019, 21:28 Phake Nick  ha scritto:

> The current usage is that, "Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that the start
> and finish of the route are at the same location". As in a route from Paris
> to Milano to Frankfurt then back to Paris would be tagged as roundtrip=yes.
> You have edited the wiki against established usage to make it become a no.
> A word used as a key isn't perfect doesn't mean you can suddenly edit the
> wiki to change its definition without regard of all the established usage
> in the osm database.
>

The question is, current tagging respect original author intention? Unlucky
Roundtrip change meaning between American and British English afaict.
I've discussed also with another mapper and we agreed to fix wiki in order
to avoid further misunderstandings.



> 在 2019年12月20日週五 01:21，Francesco Ansanelli  寫道：
>
>> Dear Volker,
>>
>> I haven't change the meaning of Roundtrip, but just reworded to clarify
>> it.
>> Roundtrip yes is not a closed loop...
>> Please check this discussion:
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip#loop
>>
>> Cheers
>> Francesco
>>
>>
>> Il gio 19 dic 2019, 15:40 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:
>>
>>> Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal  as such.
>>>
>>> Please do not change the meaning of an established tag. roundtrip=yes|no
>>> is used about 34k times, based on a different definition, see
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Relations
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Dear List,

 I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal
 in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip

 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes

 Please let me know what you think

 Many thanks
 Best regards
 Francesco
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Phake Nick]

The current usage is that, "Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that the start
and finish of the route are at the same location". As in a route from Paris
to Milano to Frankfurt then back to Paris would be tagged as roundtrip=yes.
You have edited the wiki against established usage to make it become a no.
A word used as a key isn't perfect doesn't mean you can suddenly edit the
wiki to change its definition without regard of all the established usage
in the osm database.

在 2019年12月20日週五 01:21，Francesco Ansanelli  寫道：

> Dear Volker,
>
> I haven't change the meaning of Roundtrip, but just reworded to clarify it.
> Roundtrip yes is not a closed loop...
> Please check this discussion:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip#loop
>
> Cheers
> Francesco
>
>
> Il gio 19 dic 2019, 15:40 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:
>
>> Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal  as such.
>>
>> Please do not change the meaning of an established tag. roundtrip=yes|no
>> is used about 34k times, based on a different definition, see
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Relations
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear List,
>>>
>>> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal
>>> in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>>>
>>> Please let me know what you think
>>>
>>> Many thanks
>>> Best regards
>>> Francesco
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[Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

[Florimond Berthoux]

Hello,

What's the english word for this kind of bicycle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freight_bicycle ?
It's to tag the access to this new kind of bicycle parking designed
for cargo bikes in Paris
https://framapic.org/w4zmjIvtoxim/1qsfbMKa1iVI.jpg
I'd like to have the word for all the kinds of those bicycle type not
just a part of them.
Taginfo doesn't help me here.

Tags would be :
amenity=bicycle_parking
[english for freight bicycle]=designated

The access key could be use also for other features like ramp,
barrier, elevator...

-- 
Florimond Berthoux

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Re: [Tagging] Public WLAN boxes

[Greg Troxel]

Tom Pfeifer  writes:

> On 18.12.2019 16:26, Andy Townsend wrote:
>> On 18/12/2019 15:22, Tod Fitch wrote:
>>> In the U.S. it would be called wifi or wi-fi rather than
>>> wlan. Anyone know what the British English is?
>> In the UK it's also "wifi" or "wi-fi", but wlan is understood and
>> has considerable establishment in OSM:
>
> Wi-Fi vs WLAN is not AmE vs BrE,
> WLAN is the technical term, standing for Wireless Local Area Network.
> It is standardised in the IEEE 802.11 series, using "Wireless LAN" in the 
> title.
> Wi-Fi is a brand name, introduced by the Wi-Fi Alliance.
>
> OSM should therefore continue to focus on the standardised, generic term WLAN.

I'm glad I read the end of the thread before responding.  Tom has it
100% right.



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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Dear Volker,

I haven't change the meaning of Roundtrip, but just reworded to clarify it.
Roundtrip yes is not a closed loop...
Please check this discussion:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip#loop

Cheers
Francesco


Il gio 19 dic 2019, 15:40 Volker Schmidt  ha scritto:

> Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal  as such.
>
> Please do not change the meaning of an established tag. roundtrip=yes|no
> is used about 34k times, based on a different definition, see
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Relations
>
> Volker
>
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli 
> wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal in
>> order to address the misuse of the first tag:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>>
>> Please let me know what you think
>>
>> Many thanks
>> Best regards
>> Francesco
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Volker Schmidt]

Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal  as such.

Please do not change the meaning of an established tag. roundtrip=yes|no is
used about 34k times, based on a different definition, see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes#Relations

Volker

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli 
wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal in
> order to address the misuse of the first tag:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes
>
> Please let me know what you think
>
> Many thanks
> Best regards
> Francesco
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[Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Dear List,

I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal in
order to address the misuse of the first tag:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:roundtrip
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:closed_loop=yes

Please let me know what you think

Many thanks
Best regards
Francesco
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Re: [Tagging] Vegan "cheese" shops

[Steve Doerr]

On 18/12/2019 15:58, Robert Skedgell wrote:

I've just been to La Fauxmagerie in Shoreditch, London, a vegan "cheese"
shop. It's currently tagged as shop=greengrocer, which is clearly wrong
(any fruit and vegetables they sell are in the form of chutney or pickles).



Sounds like a case for the new 'mimics' tag!

--
Steve


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