Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

18 Aug 2020, 23:29 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:

>
> On 2020-08-18 22:39, Clay Smalley wrote:
>
>
>> If you
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:51 PM Colin Smale <>> colin.sm...@xs4all.nl>> > 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 2020-08-18 20:55, Clay Smalley wrote:
>>>
>>>
 On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale < 
 colin.sm...@xs4all.nl > wrote:

> There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this 
> building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where 
> can I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially 
> ambiguous we won't be able to cover both. 
> In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street 
> address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe 
> I know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor 
> number - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes 
> other characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - 
> in these cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
>
 Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US 
 addresses.

>>> If you mean the US example, some friends were living in Long Island City, 
>>> Queens, NY, and their apartment address was something like 1100-157 50th 
>>> Ave. The other examples are possibly typically European. Here in the 
>>> Netherlands there are all kinds of notations in use for sub-units. The 
>>> national addressing standard has a field for an alphanumeric "house number 
>>> suffix" for this that people in IT know about, but the average Johan might 
>>> not know what a "huisnummertoevoeging" is. Normally the full number, 
>>> including the suffix, is written together with some kind of separator.
>>>
>>  
>> I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second part of 
>> the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example, the Dunkin 
>> Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address of 31-02 36th 
>> Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service considers this to be 
>> equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail to the same place 
>> regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though the address written on 
>> the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers in Queens have a hyphen 
>> before the last two digits.
>>  
>>
> Thanks for the explanation.. It is indeed a while ago since I was there. Any 
> idea how this is structured in IT systems? Is "house number" alphanumeric? 
> Are the two parts stored separately? Or is it simply a question of 
> formatting, inserting a "-" before the final two digits?
>  
> Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a 
> slash?
>
Slash is used in Poland to separate
housenumber from unit number.

For example 22/5 Streetname
would be house 22 at Streetname,
flat number 5.

Using it for range would be 
unbelievably confusing 
And at least some addresses are
in form addr:housenumber=1-3
denoting single housenumber,
not a range.

I added recently such example to
a Wiki page about addresses.

>  
>
>>> There are also areas where the whole neighbourhood has a single street 
>>> name, and everybody has a very long house number; the initial digits of the 
>>> house number indicate the specific road within the neighbourhood. Sometimes 
>>> these house numbers are written as 123-45 to aid navigation.
>>>
>>  
>> Examples?
>>  
>>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/51.80636/5.80412
>  
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/51.83527/5.78425
>  
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.29739/4.68692
>  
>

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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Jonathon Rossi]

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:28 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 05:51, Colin Smale  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty
>>> well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the
>>> "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
>>> So let us sort this mess out by defining:
>>> 1) that a hyphen indicates a range
>>>
>> Are there any other scenarios for hyphenated addresses?
>>
> As Andrew mentioned earlier, out here it is very common to have an address
> like 1-5 which means that one property is built across 3 blocks, so it's
> official address is "1 to 5", with no interpolation. Even numbers are on
> the other side of the road, so nobody is going to be looking here for 2 & 4.
>

Agreed. It is really common in Australian rural areas that the address
number range is actually allocated to a single lot, not one per lot.
Australia Post several decades ago allocated street numbers to every lot in
the country that previously only had a lot number, lot numbers are now only
acceptable until the street number is allocated by council. When this
allocation occurred the street numbers were allocated for every 10 metres
(left odd, right even, with other rules to determine the starting point),
so if your lot started 1500m from the start of the street on the right side
and had 500m of street frontage they'd have allocated your street number as
150-198. Australia Post expects that the street number range be used rather
than just the first number no matter where your driveway is. It sounds like
this is all defined in Rural Addressing in AS4819:2011, but the QLD
Government link below has a short explanation similar to what I've said.

https://www.qld.gov.au/environment/land/title/addressing/how-determined
https://auspost.com.au/content/dam/auspost_corp/media/documents/australia-post-addressing-standards-1999.pdf

-- 
Jono
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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Tod Fitch]

> On Aug 18, 2020, at 2:29 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
> 
> Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a 
> slash?
> 

In the United States it is not too uncommon for infill housing in urban areas 
to have fractional street numbers. So you can see addresses like “123 1/2 North 
Main Street” for a building located between 123 and 125 (odd numbers are 
usually on one side of the street so 124 is not available in this example). I 
already am annoyed by QA checkers that flag that as an error. Defining a slash 
to mean something other that the, to me, obvious use as a fraction would make 
things worse.

Cheers,

Tod




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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Andrew Harvey]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 04:26, Colin Smale  wrote:

> There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building
> (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find
> number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we
> won't be able to cover both.
>
> In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street
> address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I
> know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number
> - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other
> characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these
> cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
>

> On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty
> well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the
> "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
>
> So let us sort this mess out by defining:
> 1) that a hyphen indicates a range
> 2) sub-addresses like a floor or apartment number must not use the hyphen
> notation, but must be given in addr:unit
>

Agreed, in those cases when it's not a range but actually an apartment
number or unit number addr:unit is best.


> 3) an address using the range syntax should indicate the interpolation
> scheme by means of addr:interpolation=*
>

The problem with this is addr:interpolation is currently defined as "Every
nth house between the end nodes is represented by the interpolation way.",
when mapping an address which uses a range, there is no start and end
nodes, it's just a single address, you're not saying this range
interpolates multiple addresses here, you're saying there is a single
address and it's a range. In this case we don't need to record the
addr:interpolation since the interpolated addresses don't actually exist
(where exists means signposted).
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC -Funeral hall

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 09:38, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> There is already an existing tag with similar meaning for funeral homes /
> funeral halls / funeral directors:  shop=funeral_directors.
> The use of the key "shop=" is odd, but it's been used over 20,000 times so
> it seems to be well established:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfuneral_directors -
> documented since 2009:
>
> "Also known as a "funeral parlour","undertaker", "funeral home", or
> "memorial home".
>
> A funeral directors  shop
> is a place where arrangements to permanently store the physical body after
> death are made. An event (sometimes with the deceased's body present) to
> honor the deceased for mourners are held here in conjunction with religious
> services which are held elsewhere."
>

I was thinking the same thing, but I believe the OP may be referring to
chapels located inside cemeteries? eg
https://www.allambe.com.au/location-facilities/chapels/

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dplace_of_worship may work?

It's talk page refers to
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dplace_of_worship#Airports_prayer_room
which suggests
amenity =place_of_worship
,
religion =multifaith
, building
=chapel
.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dchapel may work just by
itself as well?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC -Funeral hall

[Joseph Eisenberg]

There is already an existing tag with similar meaning for funeral homes /
funeral halls / funeral directors:  shop=funeral_directors.
The use of the key "shop=" is odd, but it's been used over 20,000 times so
it seems to be well established:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfuneral_directors -
documented since 2009:

"Also known as a "funeral parlour","undertaker", "funeral home", or
"memorial home".

A funeral directors  shop
is a place where arrangements to permanently store the physical body after
death are made. An event (sometimes with the deceased's body present) to
honor the deceased for mourners are held here in conjunction with religious
services which are held elsewhere."
There is also a related tag amenity=mortuary -
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dmortuary

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 1:03 PM  wrote:

> Dear list,
>
> Please comment on the following proposal:
>
> Funeral hall: a building for funeral ceremonies which may be religious
> or secular
>
> Proposal page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Funeral_hall
> Discussion page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Funeral_hall
>
> Thanks!
>
> Vollis
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 05:51, Colin Smale  wrote:

>
>
> On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty
>> well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the
>> "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
>> So let us sort this mess out by defining:
>> 1) that a hyphen indicates a range
>>
> Are there any other scenarios for hyphenated addresses?
>
As Andrew mentioned earlier, out here it is very common to have an address
like 1-5 which means that one property is built across 3 blocks, so it's
official address is "1 to 5", with no interpolation. Even numbers are on
the other side of the road, so nobody is going to be looking here for 2 & 4.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-08-18 22:39, Clay Smalley wrote:

> If you 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:51 PM Colin Smale  wrote: 
> 
> On 2020-08-18 20:55, Clay Smalley wrote: 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale  wrote: 
> There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building 
> (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find 
> number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we 
> won't be able to cover both. 
> In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street 
> address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I 
> know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number - 
> e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other 
> characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these 
> cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric. 
> Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US 
> addresses.

If you mean the US example, some friends were living in Long Island
City, Queens, NY, and their apartment address was something like
1100-157 50th Ave. The other examples are possibly typically European.
Here in the Netherlands there are all kinds of notations in use for
sub-units. The national addressing standard has a field for an
alphanumeric "house number suffix" for this that people in IT know
about, but the average Johan might not know what a
"huisnummertoevoeging" is. Normally the full number, including the
suffix, is written together with some kind of separator. 

I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second
part of the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example,
the Dunkin Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address
of 31-02 36th Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service
considers this to be equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail
to the same place regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though
the address written on the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers
in Queens have a hyphen before the last two digits. 

Thanks for the explanation.. It is indeed a while ago since I was there.
Any idea how this is structured in IT systems? Is "house number"
alphanumeric? Are the two parts stored separately? Or is it simply a
question of formatting, inserting a "-" before the final two digits? 

Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a
slash? 

>> There are also areas where the whole neighbourhood has a single street name, 
>> and everybody has a very long house number; the initial digits of the house 
>> number indicate the specific road within the neighbourhood. Sometimes these 
>> house numbers are written as 123-45 to aid navigation.
> 
> Examples?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/51.80636/5.80412 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/51.83527/5.78425 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.29739/4.68692___
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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Clay Smalley]

If you

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:51 PM Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2020-08-18 20:55, Clay Smalley wrote:
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale 
> wrote:
>
>> There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this
>> building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can
>> I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially
>> ambiguous we won't be able to cover both.
>> In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street
>> address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I
>> know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number
>> - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other
>> characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these
>> cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
>>
>
> Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US
> addresses.
>
>
> If you mean the US example, some friends were living in Long Island City,
> Queens, NY, and their apartment address was something like 1100-157 50th
> Ave. The other examples are possibly typically European. Here in the
> Netherlands there are all kinds of notations in use for sub-units. The
> national addressing standard has a field for an alphanumeric "house number
> suffix" for this that people in IT know about, but the average Johan might
> not know what a "huisnummertoevoeging" is. Normally the full number,
> including the suffix, is written together with some kind of separator.
>

I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second part
of the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example, the
Dunkin Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address of 31-02
36th Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service considers this to
be equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail to the same place
regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though the address written on
the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers in Queens have a hyphen
before the last two digits.

There are also areas where the whole neighbourhood has a single street
> name, and everybody has a very long house number; the initial digits of the
> house number indicate the specific road within the neighbourhood. Sometimes
> these house numbers are written as 123-45 to aid navigation.
>

Examples?

-Clay
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC -Funeral hall

[wolle68]

Dear list,

Please comment on the following proposal:

Funeral hall: a building for funeral ceremonies which may be religious 
or secular


Proposal page: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Funeral_hall
Discussion page: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Funeral_hall


Thanks!

Vollis




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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-08-18 20:55, Clay Smalley wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale  wrote: 
> 
>> There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building 
>> (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find 
>> number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we 
>> won't be able to cover both. 
>> In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street 
>> address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I 
>> know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number 
>> - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other 
>> characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these 
>> cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
> 
> Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US 
> addresses.

If you mean the US example, some friends were living in Long Island
City, Queens, NY, and their apartment address was something like
1100-157 50th Ave. The other examples are possibly typically European.
Here in the Netherlands there are all kinds of notations in use for
sub-units. The national addressing standard has a field for an
alphanumeric "house number suffix" for this that people in IT know
about, but the average Johan might not know what a
"huisnummertoevoeging" is. Normally the full number, including the
suffix, is written together with some kind of separator. 

There are also areas where the whole neighbourhood has a single street
name, and everybody has a very long house number; the initial digits of
the house number indicate the specific road within the neighbourhood.
Sometimes these house numbers are written as 123-45 to aid navigation. 

>> On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty 
>> well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the 
>> "interpolation" value (even, odd, all). 
>> So let us sort this mess out by defining: 
>> 1) that a hyphen indicates a range 
>> 2) sub-addresses like a floor or apartment number must not use the hyphen 
>> notation, but must be given in addr:unit 
>> 3) an address using the range syntax should indicate the interpolation 
>> scheme by means of addr:interpolation=*
> 
> This leaves the situation in Queens, NY unsolved, where hyphenated addresses 
> do not indicate ranges.

As I mentioned above I know that hyphenated addresses can be used for
subdivisions (apartments etc). Are there any other scenarios for
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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Clay Smalley]

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale  wrote:

> There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building
> (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find
> number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we
> won't be able to cover both.
>
> In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street
> address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I
> know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number
> - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other
> characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these
> cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
>

Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US
addresses.

On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty
> well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the
> "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
>
> So let us sort this mess out by defining:
> 1) that a hyphen indicates a range
> 2) sub-addresses like a floor or apartment number must not use the hyphen
> notation, but must be given in addr:unit
> 3) an address using the range syntax should indicate the interpolation
> scheme by means of addr:interpolation=*
>

This leaves the situation in Queens, NY unsolved, where hyphenated
addresses do not indicate ranges.
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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-08-18 16:10, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 18. Aug 2020, at 05:34, Paul White  wrote:
>> 
>> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using 
>> a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street).

> It's their address, and I might also map the individual numbers and their 
> positions additionally, so it might eventually become more clear to someone 
> looking at the situation.
> Sometimes when the business uses 37/39 I will admittedly convert this to 
> 37;39 for clarity.

There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this
building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where
can I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially
ambiguous we won't be able to cover both. 

In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the
street address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In
Europe I know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or
floor number - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3.
Sometimes other characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or
I/II/III - in these cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric. 

On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty
well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the
"interpolation" value (even, odd, all). 

So let us sort this mess out by defining: 
1) that a hyphen indicates a range 
2) sub-addresses like a floor or apartment number must not use the
hyphen notation, but must be given in addr:unit 
3) an address using the range syntax should indicate the interpolation
scheme by means of addr:interpolation=*___
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Re: [Tagging] oneway=yes on motorways

[António Madeira via Tagging]

I just want wikis to be in accordance between them. As they are now, the
induce mappers with doubt.

Mind you that "These ways should all point direction of travel and imply
oneway=yes (like junction=roundabout), therefore the oneway tag is
redundant and should be avoided." is not telling that it's forbidden to
use oneway=yes, only it should be avoided.



Às 11:25 de 18/08/2020, Steve Doerr escreveu:

On 17/08/2020 15:02, Matthew Woehlke wrote:


FWIW, I am also in favor of preferring explicit tagging;
oneway={yes,no} says that someone paid enough attention to
intentionally annotate the way thusly. An implicit tag is impossible
to tell apart from an oversight. IMHO we should never, *ever*
discourage adding explicit tags even if they are "superfluous".


Important to remember that yes and no are not the only values. There
is also -1.




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Re: [Tagging] oneway=yes on motorways

[Steve Doerr]

On 17/08/2020 15:02, Matthew Woehlke wrote:


FWIW, I am also in favor of preferring explicit tagging; 
oneway={yes,no} says that someone paid enough attention to 
intentionally annotate the way thusly. An implicit tag is impossible 
to tell apart from an oversight. IMHO we should never, *ever* 
discourage adding explicit tags even if they are "superfluous".


Important to remember that yes and no are not the only values. There is 
also -1.


--
Steve

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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 18. Aug 2020, at 05:34, Paul White  wrote:
> 
> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using a 
> hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street).


I am not sure for buildings, but for addresses I use this all the time, because 
these are common addresses around here. There are some issues with this, for 
example if the address is 35-39 you cannot tell for sure whether this means 
35;37;39 or 35;36;37;38;39
On the other hand I don’t care ;-)
It’s their address, and I might also map the individual numbers and their 
positions additionally, so it might eventually become more clear to someone 
looking at the situation.
Sometimes when the business uses 37/39 I will admittedly convert this to 37;39 
for clarity.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 23:32, Paul White  wrote:
> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using a 
> hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street).

Let's keep in mind there are also buildings in London and possibly
elsewhere which have a _single_ entrance and nevertheless a
"hyphenated " address, e.g. 4-5 Bonhill Street
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157901333 and buildings nearby.

> This is a bad idea because some areas in the United States and possibly 
> elsewhere use hyphenated street numbers for individual dwellings.[1]

Which are properly entered as addr:unit anyhow

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Andrew Harvey]

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 19:15, Simon Poole  wrote:

> The correct ways to model a range of house numbers is to use an address
> interpolation or explicitly list the numbers (using comma or semi-colons as
> delimitiers), anything else is woefully underspecified, not to mention
> other issues, for example hyphens being used to delimit building and
> apartment/unit numbers as in AUS for example.
>
If they are actually individual addresses and you're just taking a shortcut
when mapping by using addr:interpolation
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr#Tags_for_interpolation_ways then
that's okay.

But when you have a single parcel of land which has a single address which
uses a range, then I don't think addr:interpolation is best, that would
imply there are n addresses along the way here, but actually there is just
a single range address eg 1-3, it's different to an interpolation.

Apartment/unit numbers should be entered with addr:unit, seperate from the
street address number.
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Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Simon Poole]

The correct ways to model a range of house numbers is to use an address
interpolation or explicitly list the numbers (using comma or semi-colons
as delimitiers), anything else is woefully underspecified, not to
mention other issues, for example hyphens being used to delimit building
and apartment/unit numbers as in AUS for example.

Simon

Am 18.08.2020 um 11:02 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging:
>
>
>
> Aug 18, 2020, 07:09 by andrew.harv...@gmail.com:
>
> > Data consumers see these hyphenated house numbers as one
> address, as well.
>
> Is that a problem? An address range can be considered a single
> address.
>
> > Create an address node for each housenumber and place each node
> somewhere on the building outline (or inside the building)
>
> I don't think that's a good idea, we should try to accurately map
> what's on the ground, when the street address is signposted as a
> range like "1-3" we should capture that as a single address "1-3"
> and not multiple addresses unless it's signed that way on the ground.
>
> It depends on what is actually on the ground, we are mapping addresses
> with addr:housenumber.
>
> Single object using 1-3 range? OK, 1-3 is correct and other versions
> would be incorrect.
>
> Single 1-3 signpost with three entrances? Then mapping each as a
> separate node with
> addr:housenumber=1, addr:housenumber=2, addr:housenumber=3 is preferable.
>
> Single entrance? Depends on a case, if there is later a clear split
> then three nodes are better
> than one range.
>
> Signposts are not sole address source, asking people - especially
> people living there -
> is also perfectly acceptable on the ground survey method.
>
>
> > If house numbers are associated with individual entrances, tag
> those numbers to entrance=* nodes.
>
> Doesn't work when the whole site and single main entrance have the
> address range.
>
> And in such case range may be OK or even preferable.
>
> > Separate the numbers by commas (e.g., 11,13,15) or semicolon
> (e.g., 11;13;15).
>
> why commas?
>
> Again I feel that's skewing what's actually represented on the
> ground, which is a single address which is a range and not
> multiple addresses.
>
> We are using addr:* to map addresses, not signposts. And in this
> specific case you are
> anyway unable to specify range.
>
> > Specify the range (e.g. 10-95). Note that there is a risk of
> ambiguity between two meanings:
> > When such a range is officially used for the entire house, this
> is the preferred method. In this case 10-95 is simply a label like
> any other. In this and other cases, house numbers officially
> contain a dash and are not meant to be treated as special.
> > When such a range is meant to be interpreted as a list of
> addresses, use addr:interpolation=* (described below) to emphasise
> this. Some mappers will add a short "virtual" way which allows
> them to put addresses 10 and 95 on separate nodes as normal. Some
> mappers will specify the range 10-95 on a single object, where the
> addition of the addr:interpolation=* tag disambiguates it from the
> "simply a label" meaning, specifying that it is indeed to be
> treated as a range. Both approaches are used in practice and there
> is little consensus.
> > Note that in some cases building or building complex has single
> address such as 3-5 that only looks like a housenumber range. As
> usual, do not convert such data blindly, without a verification.
> I think this is the best option, since it depends exactly what's
> happening on the ground.
>
> I think the only reasonable alternative is to have something like
> addr:housenumber:start=1 + addr:housenumber:end=3. Which is
> clearer that this is a range and allows data consumers to
> understand it better.
>
> On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 13:34, Paul White  > wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a
> building using a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55
> Main Street). This is a bad idea because some areas in the
> United States and possibly elsewhere use hyphenated street
> numbers for individual dwellings.[1] Data consumers see these
> hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well. Other
> methods documented here
> 
> 
>  work
> better, in my opinion.
>
> I hope to get some input on this issue and the best path forward.
>
> Best, Paul
>
> [1]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queens#Streets
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Lawn%2C_New_Jersey#Grid-based_address_system
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address#United_States
>
>
> ___

Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Aug 18, 2020, 07:09 by andrew.harv...@gmail.com:

> > Data consumers see these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well.
>
> Is that a problem? An address range can be considered a single address.
>
> > Create an address node for each housenumber and place each node somewhere 
> > on the building outline (or inside the building)
>
> I don't think that's a good idea, we should try to accurately map what's on 
> the ground, when the street address is signposted as a range like "1-3" we 
> should capture that as a single address "1-3" and not multiple addresses 
> unless it's signed that way on the ground.
>
It depends on what is actually on the ground, we are mapping addresses with 
addr:housenumber.

Single object using 1-3 range? OK, 1-3 is correct and other versions would be 
incorrect.

Single 1-3 signpost with three entrances? Then mapping each as a separate node 
with
addr:housenumber=1, addr:housenumber=2, addr:housenumber=3 is preferable.

Single entrance? Depends on a case, if there is later a clear split then three 
nodes are better
than one range.

Signposts are not sole address source, asking people - especially people living 
there -
is also perfectly acceptable on the ground survey method.

>
> > If house numbers are associated with individual entrances, tag those 
> > numbers to entrance=* nodes.
>
> Doesn't work when the whole site and single main entrance have the address 
> range.
>
And in such case range may be OK or even preferable.

> > Separate the numbers by commas (e.g., 11,13,15) or semicolon (e.g., 
> > 11;13;15).
>
why commas?

> Again I feel that's skewing what's actually represented on the ground, which 
> is a single address which is a range and not multiple addresses.
>
We are using addr:* to map addresses, not signposts. And in this specific case 
you are 
anyway unable to specify range.

> > Specify the range (e.g. 10-95). Note that there is a risk of ambiguity 
> > between two meanings:
> > When such a range is officially used for the entire house, this is the 
> > preferred method. In this case 10-95 is simply a label like any other. In 
> > this and other cases, house numbers officially contain a dash and are not 
> > meant to be treated as special.
> > When such a range is meant to be interpreted as a list of addresses, use 
> > addr:interpolation=* (described below) to emphasise this. Some mappers will 
> > add a short "virtual" way which allows them to put addresses 10 and 95 on 
> > separate nodes as normal. Some mappers will specify the range 10-95 on a 
> > single object, where the addition of the addr:interpolation=* tag 
> > disambiguates it from the "simply a label" meaning, specifying that it is 
> > indeed to be treated as a range. Both approaches are used in practice and 
> > there is little consensus.
> > Note that in some cases building or building complex has single address 
> > such as 3-5 that only looks like a housenumber range. As usual, do not 
> > convert such data blindly, without a verification.
> I think this is the best option, since it depends exactly what's happening on 
> the ground.
>
> I think the only reasonable alternative is to have something like 
> addr:housenumber:start=1 + addr:housenumber:end=3. Which is clearer that this 
> is a range and allows data consumers to understand it better.
>
> On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 13:34, Paul White <> pjwhite1...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using 
>> a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street). This is a bad 
>> idea because some areas in the United States and possibly elsewhere use 
>> hyphenated street numbers for individual dwellings.[1] Data consumers see 
>> these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well. Other methods 
>> documented >> here 
>> >>
>>   work better, in my opinion.
>>
>> I hope to get some input on this issue and the best path forward.
>>
>> Best, Paul
>>
>> [1]
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queens#Streets
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Lawn%2C_New_Jersey#Grid-based_address_system
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address#United_States
>>
>>
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>>  Tagging mailing list
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>>  >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>

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