Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Aug 2020, at 09:01, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> Also, seriously, no offense to Croatia, the only place in the world not 
> hostile to Americans that US passports are still accepted.


I don’t see it as hostility, it’s reasonable precautions, of temporary nature...


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Tod Fitch]

> On Aug 1, 2020, at 7:45 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> Slightly OT question here, please.
> 
> I remember reading a US press article ~12 months ago (may have even been 
> mentioned on here in discussions at the time re = aboriginal_land?) to the 
> effect that the US Supreme Court was shortly due to rule on whether historic 
> tribal lands actually now belong to the Indian Nations?
> 
> Does that ring any bells with our US members, & are you aware of any outcome?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
> 

Assuming that NPR is not geo-restricted to the US:

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/09/889562040/supreme-court-rules-that-about-half-of-oklahoma-is-indian-land
 





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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Paul Johnson]

Also, seriously, no offense to Croatia, the only place in the world not
hostile to Americans that US passports are still accepted.  We don't
deserve that gesture, but I appreciate the self-sacrificing move if only to
not make us follow entirely in North Korea's footsteps.

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 1:52 AM Paul Johnson  wrote:

> CW: Politics, rightfully being denied the world because where I live is an
> idiot.
>
> Clarification: I'm Cherokee, Choctaw and Scottish, and I'm barred from
> entering Choctaw and Scottish territory due to COVID19, and even without
> the pandemic, it's harder for me to travel now (seriously, violate anything
> remotely resembling UKIP lasciviously and involuntarily with a rusty,
> tetanus-carrying fencepost for that; looking at you, UK Tories, US
> Republicans, UKIP folks, and all other white nationalist enabling party
> members in the US and UK specifically; really super appreciate being
> marginalized *even more* by your direct actions, keep up the good work!
> I super love having a passport only valid in 3 countries worldwide,
> counting my own, counting a country that super-hates everyone from my
> continent anyway!  I love questioning why I should even bother having
> passport as a result!).
>
> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 1:37 AM Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 9:21 PM Clifford Snow 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If you look at eastern Oklahoma, about 90%, Paul - correct me if I'm
>>> wrong, is boundary=aboriginal_lands. Tulsa is pretty much completely inside
>>> of two different reservations.
>>>
>>
>> Three, actually.  I live in the Muscogee Nation, now.  Last time
>> indigenous lands came up, I lived on my own tribe's land, within the same
>> city.  My tribe ceded land to the Osage Nation in the 19th Century because
>> the US was going to screw them out of everything and we were "gifted" with
>> almost as much land as the Navajo despite being a fraction of their size.
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Paul Johnson]

CW: Politics, rightfully being denied the world because where I live is an
idiot.

Clarification: I'm Cherokee, Choctaw and Scottish, and I'm barred from
entering Choctaw and Scottish territory due to COVID19, and even without
the pandemic, it's harder for me to travel now (seriously, violate anything
remotely resembling UKIP lasciviously and involuntarily with a rusty,
tetanus-carrying fencepost for that; looking at you, UK Tories, US
Republicans, UKIP folks, and all other white nationalist enabling party
members in the US and UK specifically; really super appreciate being
marginalized *even more* by your direct actions, keep up the good work!  I
super love having a passport only valid in 3 countries worldwide, counting
my own, counting a country that super-hates everyone from my continent
anyway!  I love questioning why I should even bother having passport as a
result!).

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 1:37 AM Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 9:21 PM Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
>
>> If you look at eastern Oklahoma, about 90%, Paul - correct me if I'm
>> wrong, is boundary=aboriginal_lands. Tulsa is pretty much completely inside
>> of two different reservations.
>>
>
> Three, actually.  I live in the Muscogee Nation, now.  Last time
> indigenous lands came up, I lived on my own tribe's land, within the same
> city.  My tribe ceded land to the Osage Nation in the 19th Century because
> the US was going to screw them out of everything and we were "gifted" with
> almost as much land as the Navajo despite being a fraction of their size.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 9:21 PM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> If you look at eastern Oklahoma, about 90%, Paul - correct me if I'm
> wrong, is boundary=aboriginal_lands. Tulsa is pretty much completely inside
> of two different reservations.
>

Three, actually.  I live in the Muscogee Nation, now.  Last time indigenous
lands came up, I lived on my own tribe's land, within the same city.  My
tribe ceded land to the Osage Nation in the 19th Century because the US was
going to screw them out of everything and we were "gifted" with almost as
much land as the Navajo despite being a fraction of their size.
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 8:09 PM Kevin Kenny  wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:29 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 3:09 PM Clay Smalley 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Chiming in as another settler. I really wish we had more Natives active
>>> on OSM contributing their cultural knowledge. What could we be doing
>>> different in the future to welcome and engage them in our community?
>>>
>>
>> Outreach to tribal GIS offices where they exist couldn't hurt.  The
>> standard map rendering native areas, particularly when most don't (or in
>> Oklahoma's case, most are *egregiously* incomplete, often only including
>> the Osage Nation) definitely is a nice start and I'm glad we're to that.
>> At least in the north american context, having a separate tag for
>> indigenous lands seems a little strange compared to filing it under the
>> administrative boundary, admin_level system, but I can live with it.
>>
>
> It depends on the jurisdiction.  The non-Federal Schaghticoke reservation
> in Connecticut is simply part of Kent Township; there's a tribal government
> of sorts but it's not recognized by the BIA, and so there isn't really an
> admin_level that would fit.
>
> On the other hand, all of the Indian Reservations in New York are not part
> of either Towns or Cities, and so would slot in nicely at admin_level=7.
> The sole inconsistency that designation would introduce is that the city of
> Salamanca is entirely within the Allegany reservation. (Salamanca, and
> several smaller communities, have significant non-Haudenosaunee populations
> and stand on reservation land that is leased from the Seneca Nation.)
>

That's kind of my point.  In Oklahoma, there's at least 3 tribes that would
fall at admin_level=3, with the rest falling at 5 with a few at 4, all
depending on how their 19th century treaties were called, based on recent
Supreme Court rulings.

Not going to say "I told you so" but, anyone who's been on the OSM mailing
lists for the last 11 years and seen my points about American indigenous
land, well, thanks to Oklahoma v McGill, well, I told you so...
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 13:12, Tod Fitch  wrote:

>
> Assuming that NPR is not geo-restricted to the US:
>
>
> https://www.npr.org/2020/07/09/889562040/supreme-court-rules-that-about-half-of-oklahoma-is-indian-land
>

Thanks, Tod!

Going to be interesting to see where this goes in the future.

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 12:22, Clifford Snow  wrote:

>
> The agreed upon tag for reservations is boundary=aboriginal_lands. It's
> used extensively in the US, Including the Mohawk Nation and across the
> Saint Lawrence River in Canada. We don't have consensus on how to tag off
> reservation land trusts but that's another topic.
>

Slightly OT question here, please.

I remember reading a US press article ~12 months ago (may have even been
mentioned on here in discussions at the time re = aboriginal_land?) to the
effect that the US Supreme Court was shortly due to rule on whether
historic tribal lands actually now belong to the Indian Nations?

Does that ring any bells with our US members, & are you aware of any
outcome?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Clifford Snow]

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 6:09 PM Kevin Kenny  wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:29 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 3:09 PM Clay Smalley 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Chiming in as another settler. I really wish we had more Natives active
>>> on OSM contributing their cultural knowledge. What could we be doing
>>> different in the future to welcome and engage them in our community?
>>>
>>
>> Outreach to tribal GIS offices where they exist couldn't hurt.  The
>> standard map rendering native areas, particularly when most don't (or in
>> Oklahoma's case, most are *egregiously* incomplete, often only including
>> the Osage Nation) definitely is a nice start and I'm glad we're to that.
>> At least in the north american context, having a separate tag for
>> indigenous lands seems a little strange compared to filing it under the
>> administrative boundary, admin_level system, but I can live with it.
>>
>
> It depends on the jurisdiction.  The non-Federal Schaghticoke reservation
> in Connecticut is simply part of Kent Township; there's a tribal government
> of sorts but it's not recognized by the BIA, and so there isn't really an
> admin_level that would fit.
>
> On the other hand, all of the Indian Reservations in New York are not part
> of either Towns or Cities, and so would slot in nicely at admin_level=7.
> The sole inconsistency that designation would introduce is that the city of
> Salamanca is entirely within the Allegany reservation. (Salamanca, and
> several smaller communities, have significant non-Haudenosaunee populations
> and stand on reservation land that is leased from the Seneca Nation.)
>

The agreed upon tag for reservations is boundary=aboriginal_lands. It's
used extensively in the US, Including the Mohawk Nation and across the
Saint Lawrence River in Canada. We don't have consensus on how to tag off
reservation land trusts but that's another topic.

If you look at eastern Oklahoma, about 90%, Paul - correct me if I'm wrong,
is boundary=aboriginal_lands. Tulsa is pretty much completely inside of two
different reservations.

Best,
Clifford

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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Kevin Kenny]

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:29 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 3:09 PM Clay Smalley  wrote:
>
>> Chiming in as another settler. I really wish we had more Natives active
>> on OSM contributing their cultural knowledge. What could we be doing
>> different in the future to welcome and engage them in our community?
>>
>
> Outreach to tribal GIS offices where they exist couldn't hurt.  The
> standard map rendering native areas, particularly when most don't (or in
> Oklahoma's case, most are *egregiously* incomplete, often only including
> the Osage Nation) definitely is a nice start and I'm glad we're to that.
> At least in the north american context, having a separate tag for
> indigenous lands seems a little strange compared to filing it under the
> administrative boundary, admin_level system, but I can live with it.
>

It depends on the jurisdiction.  The non-Federal Schaghticoke reservation
in Connecticut is simply part of Kent Township; there's a tribal government
of sorts but it's not recognized by the BIA, and so there isn't really an
admin_level that would fit.

On the other hand, all of the Indian Reservations in New York are not part
of either Towns or Cities, and so would slot in nicely at admin_level=7.
The sole inconsistency that designation would introduce is that the city of
Salamanca is entirely within the Allegany reservation. (Salamanca, and
several smaller communities, have significant non-Haudenosaunee populations
and stand on reservation land that is leased from the Seneca Nation.)
-- 
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Clifford Snow]

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 2:28 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 3:09 PM Clay Smalley  wrote:
>
>>
>> So I think the current tagging makes sense. Though I wonder if places
>> like these qualify as disputed territory. After all, the US and Canada have
>> a nation-to-nation relationship with each tribal government.
>>
>
> I don't believe that it counts as a disputed territory.  I also think
> taking the US and Canada's claim of the tribe having two distinct
> reservations with a shared boundary congruent with the US/Canada
> international boundary is not substantiated by the ground truth.  It's a
> single contiguous area, not two adjoining ones.  It happens to have the
> US/Canada boundary going through it, and AFAICT, nobody's disputing that.
> Just that this single contiguous tribal area happens to straddle that line.
>

Reading The Resolution [1] there does appear to be differences of opinion.
Disputed might seem a bit strong when considering some of the disputed
borders, ie. India and Pakistan, to describe the dispute between the tribe
and the county and state and possibly the federal government.

[1] https://www.srmt-nsn.gov/resolve-the-boundary/?p=resolvetheboundary

For now I'm satisfied to wait until we have the Tribes GIS contact info.

Best,
Clifford

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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 3:09 PM Clay Smalley  wrote:

> Chiming in as another settler. I really wish we had more Natives active on
> OSM contributing their cultural knowledge. What could we be doing different
> in the future to welcome and engage them in our community?
>

Outreach to tribal GIS offices where they exist couldn't hurt.  The
standard map rendering native areas, particularly when most don't (or in
Oklahoma's case, most are *egregiously* incomplete, often only including
the Osage Nation) definitely is a nice start and I'm glad we're to that.
At least in the north american context, having a separate tag for
indigenous lands seems a little strange compared to filing it under the
administrative boundary, admin_level system, but I can live with it.

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 12:28 PM Kevin Kenny  wrote:
>
>> Both the US and Canada consider the river to be the US-Canada boundary,
>> and that the reservations are their separate dependencies. The Canadians
>> recognize the Six Nations as domestic dependent nations, and they enjoy
>> limited sovereignty on their own lands.
>>
>
> I think what you've said here hints at the answer. The US and Canada are
> UN member states with international recognition, each with an autonomous
> region under indigenous governance. The tribal governments themselves may
> dispute this, which is fair. Perhaps one day they might have an
> internationally recognized sovereign state with defined borders. But on the
> ground as of 2020, there are no such states, only subnational autonomous
> regions.
>

Well, there *was* Bolivia until last month, but Elon Musk helped finance a
coup so he could continue using the country as a cheap source of lithium
for car batteries.


> So I think the current tagging makes sense. Though I wonder if places like
> these qualify as disputed territory. After all, the US and Canada have a
> nation-to-nation relationship with each tribal government.
>

I don't believe that it counts as a disputed territory.  I also think
taking the US and Canada's claim of the tribe having two distinct
reservations with a shared boundary congruent with the US/Canada
international boundary is not substantiated by the ground truth.  It's a
single contiguous area, not two adjoining ones.  It happens to have the
US/Canada boundary going through it, and AFAICT, nobody's disputing that.
Just that this single contiguous tribal area happens to straddle that line.
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Clay Smalley]

Chiming in as another settler. I really wish we had more Natives active on
OSM contributing their cultural knowledge. What could we be doing different
in the future to welcome and engage them in our community?

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 12:28 PM Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> Both the US and Canada consider the river to be the US-Canada boundary,
> and that the reservations are their separate dependencies. The Canadians
> recognize the Six Nations as domestic dependent nations, and they enjoy
> limited sovereignty on their own lands.
>

I think what you've said here hints at the answer. The US and Canada are UN
member states with international recognition, each with an autonomous
region under indigenous governance. The tribal governments themselves may
dispute this, which is fair. Perhaps one day they might have an
internationally recognized sovereign state with defined borders. But on the
ground as of 2020, there are no such states, only subnational autonomous
regions.

So I think the current tagging makes sense. Though I wonder if places like
these qualify as disputed territory. After all, the US and Canada have a
nation-to-nation relationship with each tribal government.
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Clifford Snow]

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 12:27 PM Kevin Kenny  wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 2:25 PM Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
>
>> After some digging, it appears that Saint Regis Mohawk Indian Territory
>> is in OSM. Just across the border, on a Saint Lawrence River island, is the
>> Akwesasne 59 First Nations tribe is also in OSM. According to Wikipedia [1]
>> the Mohawk consider their territory to be a single nation, with no border
>> separating its parts.
>>
>> It seems to me that we should map the tribal areas as one. Possibly as a
>> super relation, though I'm not sure if super relations are used for
>> boundaries. What I find interesting is that the Canadian Border Crossing is
>> located on the North side of the Saint Lawrence River while the US crossing
>> station is located on the South side of the river. It seems to imply that
>> the Akwesasne Nation is not in either country.
>>
>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Regis_Mohawk_Reservation
>>
>
> It's complicated. (When are sovereignty disputes _not_ complicated?)
>
> Both the US and Canada consider the river to be the US-Canada boundary,
> and that the reservations are their separate dependencies. The Canadians
> recognize the Six Nations as domestic dependent nations, and they enjoy
> limited sovereignty on their own lands. The US recognizes certain
> Haudenosaunee lands as dependent nations, but Akwesáhsne is not one of
> them, owing to the fact that they have not adopted a written constitution
> and a representative democracy. (In completely open elections, they
> consistently prefer their semi-hereditary chiefship, and elect the
> traditional chiefs to the political offices. In current practice, the
> traditional chiefs are disqualified from standing for election.)
>
> The Jay Treaty of 1795 recognizes that the Akwesáhsro:non have freedom to
> travel their land on both banks of the river.  The current rule is
> particularly burdensome: an Akwesáhsro:non wishing to return to Cornwall
> Island from Saint Regis must first cross a second bridge into Canada to
> clear customs and pay duty if necessary, and then return to Cornwall
> Island. There have been recurring discussions of placing the Canadian port
> of entry on the US side of the river to avoid this situation.
>
> There was an earlier query in the thread about government web sites: The
> respective tribal governments maintain Web presence at
> http://www.akwesasne.ca/
> and https://www.srmt-nsn.gov/
>
> I've refrained from trying to map the situation, not being qualified. (I'm
> an Old White Guy with a trace of Six Nations ancestry,)
>

I've sent an email to Franklin County GIS asking for current boundaries as
well as any contact he may have with the tribe. Like Paul said, it would be
best if we could get someone from the tribe involved. It will still be
messy but at least someone local is involved.

>From another old white guy - with no trace of any ancestry of any kind

Clifford

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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Sat, 1 Aug 2020 at 14:24, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> What I find interesting is that the Canadian Border Crossing is located on 
> the North side of the Saint Lawrence River while the US crossing station is 
> located on the South side of the river. It seems to imply that the Akwesasne 
> Nation is not in either country.

Prosaically, many border control points are built a little away from
the actual border, where it's convenient to build them.

Per Wikipedia, the Canadian border control point was moved from the
island in 2009 after a protest against CBSA agents beginning to carry
firearms.

My personal interpretation reading between the lines is that the
current location is a compromise. You won't find the federal
government saying they don't control the land, but neither was there
an appetite to push for an all-out confrontation. That being said, the
notion of being "in a country" like Canada is of course colonial and
seems to increasingly be fraying for some Indigenous areas here.

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Kevin Kenny]

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 2:25 PM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> After some digging, it appears that Saint Regis Mohawk Indian Territory is
> in OSM. Just across the border, on a Saint Lawrence River island, is the
> Akwesasne 59 First Nations tribe is also in OSM. According to Wikipedia [1]
> the Mohawk consider their territory to be a single nation, with no border
> separating its parts.
>
> It seems to me that we should map the tribal areas as one. Possibly as a
> super relation, though I'm not sure if super relations are used for
> boundaries. What I find interesting is that the Canadian Border Crossing is
> located on the North side of the Saint Lawrence River while the US crossing
> station is located on the South side of the river. It seems to imply that
> the Akwesasne Nation is not in either country.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Regis_Mohawk_Reservation
>

It's complicated. (When are sovereignty disputes _not_ complicated?)

Both the US and Canada consider the river to be the US-Canada boundary, and
that the reservations are their separate dependencies. The Canadians
recognize the Six Nations as domestic dependent nations, and they enjoy
limited sovereignty on their own lands. The US recognizes certain
Haudenosaunee lands as dependent nations, but Akwesáhsne is not one of
them, owing to the fact that they have not adopted a written constitution
and a representative democracy. (In completely open elections, they
consistently prefer their semi-hereditary chiefship, and elect the
traditional chiefs to the political offices. In current practice, the
traditional chiefs are disqualified from standing for election.)

The Jay Treaty of 1795 recognizes that the Akwesáhsro:non have freedom to
travel their land on both banks of the river.  The current rule is
particularly burdensome: an Akwesáhsro:non wishing to return to Cornwall
Island from Saint Regis must first cross a second bridge into Canada to
clear customs and pay duty if necessary, and then return to Cornwall
Island. There have been recurring discussions of placing the Canadian port
of entry on the US side of the river to avoid this situation.

There was an earlier query in the thread about government web sites: The
respective tribal governments maintain Web presence at
http://www.akwesasne.ca/
and https://www.srmt-nsn.gov/

I've refrained from trying to map the situation, not being qualified. (I'm
an Old White Guy with a trace of Six Nations ancestry,)
-- 
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Clifford Snow]

After some digging, it appears that Saint Regis Mohawk Indian Territory is
in OSM. Just across the border, on a Saint Lawrence River island, is the
Akwesasne 59 First Nations tribe is also in OSM. According to Wikipedia [1]
the Mohawk consider their territory to be a single nation, with no border
separating its parts.

It seems to me that we should map the tribal areas as one. Possibly as a
super relation, though I'm not sure if super relations are used for
boundaries. What I find interesting is that the Canadian Border Crossing is
located on the North side of the Saint Lawrence River while the US crossing
station is located on the South side of the river. It seems to imply that
the Akwesasne Nation is not in either country.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Regis_Mohawk_Reservation

Clifford

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 8:15 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:

> I do not, which was a big problem with that.  I like mapping
> weird boundaries like that, so I tried to take it on, but it seems there's
> somewhat conflicting information between the tribe, US and Canada on this.
> I strongly suspect we're going to need to find an Ahkwesáhsnean that knows
> the boundaries well to get a solid cut on this and I'm not entirely sure
> how to reach out.
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 9:52 PM Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>> Do you have any website or contact info for the tribe? There are a number
>> of websites but not sure exactly which one. Although it be nice to get them
>> all added.
>>
>> Clifford
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 7:17 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 6:59 PM Clifford Snow 
>>> wrote:
>>>


 On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:54 AM Kevin Kenny 
 wrote:

>
>
> The nearest problem case to me is Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of
> the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy that straddles
> the US-Canadian border, and whose government is recognized by neither
> state. The political situation there has deteriorated into shootings as
> recently as 1990, and sabre-rattling among US, Canadian and Akwesáhsro:non
> persons as recently as 2009. The disputes usually stem from one or the
> other large nation deciding to deny the Kanien'kehá free pratique to 
> travel
> and trade within their own nation, requiring customs and imposts every 
> time
> the US-Canadian border is crossed.
>
> Kevin,
 Has this disputed territory been map in OSM? I went looking for it but
 struck out. Just the name Ahkwesáhsne returned zero results.

>>>
>>> I attempted to do so but was not able to proceed because of conflicting
>>> information relying on dubious sources.
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
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>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> www.snowandsnow.us
>> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
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>


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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Paul Johnson]

I do not, which was a big problem with that.  I like mapping
weird boundaries like that, so I tried to take it on, but it seems there's
somewhat conflicting information between the tribe, US and Canada on this.
I strongly suspect we're going to need to find an Ahkwesáhsnean that knows
the boundaries well to get a solid cut on this and I'm not entirely sure
how to reach out.

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 9:52 PM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> Paul,
> Do you have any website or contact info for the tribe? There are a number
> of websites but not sure exactly which one. Although it be nice to get them
> all added.
>
> Clifford
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 7:17 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 6:59 PM Clifford Snow 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:54 AM Kevin Kenny 
>>> wrote:
>>>


 The nearest problem case to me is Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of
 the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy that straddles
 the US-Canadian border, and whose government is recognized by neither
 state. The political situation there has deteriorated into shootings as
 recently as 1990, and sabre-rattling among US, Canadian and Akwesáhsro:non
 persons as recently as 2009. The disputes usually stem from one or the
 other large nation deciding to deny the Kanien'kehá free pratique to travel
 and trade within their own nation, requiring customs and imposts every time
 the US-Canadian border is crossed.

 Kevin,
>>> Has this disputed territory been map in OSM? I went looking for it but
>>> struck out. Just the name Ahkwesáhsne returned zero results.
>>>
>>
>> I attempted to do so but was not able to proceed because of conflicting
>> information relying on dubious sources.
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>
> --
> @osm_washington
> www.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Clifford Snow]

Paul,
Do you have any website or contact info for the tribe? There are a number
of websites but not sure exactly which one. Although it be nice to get them
all added.

Clifford

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 7:17 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 6:59 PM Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:54 AM Kevin Kenny 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The nearest problem case to me is Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of
>>> the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy that straddles
>>> the US-Canadian border, and whose government is recognized by neither
>>> state. The political situation there has deteriorated into shootings as
>>> recently as 1990, and sabre-rattling among US, Canadian and Akwesáhsro:non
>>> persons as recently as 2009. The disputes usually stem from one or the
>>> other large nation deciding to deny the Kanien'kehá free pratique to travel
>>> and trade within their own nation, requiring customs and imposts every time
>>> the US-Canadian border is crossed.
>>>
>>> Kevin,
>> Has this disputed territory been map in OSM? I went looking for it but
>> struck out. Just the name Ahkwesáhsne returned zero results.
>>
>
> I attempted to do so but was not able to proceed because of conflicting
> information relying on dubious sources.
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 6:59 PM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:54 AM Kevin Kenny 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The nearest problem case to me is Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of
>> the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy that straddles
>> the US-Canadian border, and whose government is recognized by neither
>> state. The political situation there has deteriorated into shootings as
>> recently as 1990, and sabre-rattling among US, Canadian and Akwesáhsro:non
>> persons as recently as 2009. The disputes usually stem from one or the
>> other large nation deciding to deny the Kanien'kehá free pratique to travel
>> and trade within their own nation, requiring customs and imposts every time
>> the US-Canadian border is crossed.
>>
>> Kevin,
> Has this disputed territory been map in OSM? I went looking for it but
> struck out. Just the name Ahkwesáhsne returned zero results.
>

I attempted to do so but was not able to proceed because of conflicting
information relying on dubious sources.
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Re: [Tagging] Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Was:Should admin_level=1 tag be applied to EU?

[Clifford Snow]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:54 AM Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

>
>
> The nearest problem case to me is Ahkwesáhsne, a territory of
> the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy that straddles
> the US-Canadian border, and whose government is recognized by neither
> state. The political situation there has deteriorated into shootings as
> recently as 1990, and sabre-rattling among US, Canadian and Akwesáhsro:non
> persons as recently as 2009. The disputes usually stem from one or the
> other large nation deciding to deny the Kanien'kehá free pratique to travel
> and trade within their own nation, requiring customs and imposts every time
> the US-Canadian border is crossed.
>
> Kevin,
Has this disputed territory been map in OSM? I went looking for it but
struck out. Just the name Ahkwesáhsne returned zero results.

Clifford


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