Re: [Tagging] [Talk-ml] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement
On 5/25/20 3:42 AM, Warin wrote: You will need to be very clear what a 'common' is and how it is different from other tags such as amenity=marketplace, leisure=park The defining characteristics are: being open to public, not designated for a specific purpose, not landscaped (or that would be a park), not a marketplace (in West Africa, marketplaces are regulated and occur almost only at designated locations), not a pitch (when a couple pairs of goalposts are planted at extremities, the pitchness sometimes takes precedence and a few such locations are rightfully mapped as soccer pitches - but usually playing ball is just one of the uses of such places) A possible alternative, not yet mentioned here, is place=square (which by the way is the English for the concept of piazza/plaza) "A town or village square: a paved open public space, generally of architectural significance, which is surrounded by buildings in a built-up area such as a city, town or village" - https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/place=square https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_square - but it is part of the place=* hierarchy, which is not fit for our purpose: place=* requires a name=* and this places are rarely named. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Talk-ml] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement
On 4/5/20 1:12 am, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote: So, this discussion gravitates towards using landuse=common for those African urban freely accessible multipurpose open spaces, which I fully support. Implementing this change requires the following actions: - Editing the leisure=common wiki page, in French and in English (I'll do that) You will need to be very clear what a 'common' is and how it is different from other tags such as amenity=marketplace, leisure=park. To me? Something like... A 'common' is an area available for use by the local community. Examples include a weekly market (daily markets should be tag amenity=marketplace), community meetings/celebrations. A 'leisure=park' is more appropriate for areas set aside for individual or small group rest and recreation. - Reinstating the rendering of leisure=common in downstream cartographic styles, would be even better if the color matched the surface=* so that sandy surfaces don't appear green. - Reinstating the rendering of leisure=common in JOSM's default style (it recently changed to grey to mark deprecation). (I'll open a JOSM ticket - Altering QA rules (JOSM Validator and Osmose) so that the leisure=common deprecation only applies to the United Kingdom of Great Britain, where commons have a legal definition and designation=common must be used for them. (I'll open a JOSM ticket but if someone has prior experience interacting with the Osmose people, that would be nice) On 5/3/20 4:19 PM, severin.menard via Tagging wrote: Je suis d'accord avec Pierre : le tag landuse=common convient bien à ces espaces ouverts dans les villages et villes africaines et un parc n'a pas grand-chose à voir avec. I agree with Pierre: the tag landuse=common is well suited to these open spaces in African villages and towns and a park has little to do with it. ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ Le mercredi 29 avril 2020 21:59, Pierre Béland via Talk-ml a écrit : Like others, I did map many of these. I can tell you that we often see a common space in center of african villages, often near the school, and it is surely not green and have no facilities like in the Nordic countries parks. People have to understand that there are often no infrastructures in African villages. But young people still gather and play. I dont think that the OSM tagging schema should reflect the legal status in specific countries like UK. Various tags can reflect various realities. And leisure=common seems to be quite well adapted to Africa and dont exist to stretch the legal defininition of UK. When the tag is used in UK, I would understand that the UK contributors want to follow a certain rule particular to their country. But I dont agree to deprecate the the leisure=common tag for Africa. Le mercredi 29 avril 2020 15 h 34 min 57 s UTC−4, Jean-Marc Liotier a écrit : Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA - larger than a street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a multipurpose common area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or lounging around also occur, and the occasional popular event) and usually surfaced with sand or whatever the ground is. We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in Senegal and 486 in Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) - which is a bit of stretch from the British legal definition, but worked well enough and did not conflict with its British usage. But leisure=common is now deprecated So, what should we use instead ? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon suggests using leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch functionally but evokes greenery that does not occur here (though British commons are just as green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any other ideas ? Or I'm going to use leisure=park+surface=sand ! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Talk-ml] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement
On 03/05/2020 16:12, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote: So, this discussion gravitates towards using landuse=common for those African urban freely accessible multipurpose open spaces, which I fully support. Just to be clear you've said "landuse=common" above but "leisure=common" below? Implementing this change requires the following actions: - Editing the leisure=common wiki page, in French and in English (I'll do that) - Reinstating the rendering of leisure=common in downstream cartographic styles, would be even better if the color matched the surface=* so that sandy surfaces don't appear green. Each cartographic style will have its own sorts of things that it wants to show, and I can fully understand some of them thinking that "leisure=common" isn't something that they want to show. You'll be able to submit pull requests to those that are in github, but there's no "automatic right of feature X to be shown". With regard to the second bit, I'd be happy to accept a pull request at https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style that did that (it'd be about half a dozen lines of lua). Setting up a map server based on that is pretty straightforward - it's set out in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:SomeoneElse/Ubuntu_1804_tileserver_load which in turn is very similar to https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/manually-building-a-tile-server-18-04-lts/ . Server costs would be significant on an average salary in Mali (a day's wages per month or so?) but much less so on an a European or North American one (perhaps a cup of coffee-shop coffee every few days). - Reinstating the rendering of leisure=common in JOSM's default style (it recently changed to grey to mark deprecation). (I'll open a JOSM ticket - Altering QA rules (JOSM Validator and Osmose) so that the leisure=common deprecation only applies to the United Kingdom of Great Britain, where commons have a legal definition and designation=common must be used for them. (I'll open a JOSM ticket but if someone has prior experience interacting with the Osmose people, that would be nice) Actually, I'd suggest that "leisure=common" was perfectly valid in the UK too. Back in 2017 it was misused as a tag in the UK but now it mostly isn't; I added it back in to the style that I maintain for UK/Ireland this year. Obviously "designation", if known, makes sense too. Best Regards, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Talk-ml] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement
The tag landuse=common is different than leisure=common but the two seem to be mixed up in this post. The new tag landuse=common is not yet documented: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse=common It has been used 197 times, but perhaps due to confusion with the more common tag leisure=common: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landuse=common The existing tag is leisure=common - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure=common -- Joseph Eisenberg — Joseph Eisenberg On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 8:14 AM Jean-Marc Liotier wrote: > So, this discussion gravitates towards using landuse=common for those > African urban freely accessible multipurpose open spaces, which I fully > support. > > Implementing this change requires the following actions: > > - Editing the leisure=common wiki page, in French and in English (I'll do > that) > > - Reinstating the rendering of leisure=common in downstream cartographic > styles, would be even better if the color matched the surface=* so that > sandy surfaces don't appear green. > > - Reinstating the rendering of leisure=common in JOSM's default style (it > recently changed to grey to mark deprecation). (I'll open a JOSM ticket > > - Altering QA rules (JOSM Validator and Osmose) so that the leisure=common > deprecation only applies to the United Kingdom of Great Britain, where > commons have a legal definition and designation=common must be used for > them. (I'll open a JOSM ticket but if someone has prior experience > interacting with the Osmose people, that would be nice) > > > On 5/3/20 4:19 PM, severin.menard via Tagging wrote: > > Je suis d'accord avec Pierre : le tag landuse=common convient bien à ces > espaces ouverts dans les villages et villes africaines et un parc n'a pas > grand-chose à voir avec. > > I agree with Pierre: the tag landuse=common is well suited to these open > spaces in African villages and towns and a park has little to do with it. > > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > Le mercredi 29 avril 2020 21:59, Pierre Béland via Talk-ml > a écrit : > > Like others, I did map many of these. I can tell you that we often see a > common space in center of african villages, often near the school, and it > is surely not green and have no facilities like in the Nordic countries > parks. > > People have to understand that there are often no infrastructures in > African villages. But young people still gather and play. > > I dont think that the OSM tagging schema should reflect the legal status > in specific countries like UK. Various tags can reflect various realities. > And leisure=common seems to be quite well adapted to Africa and dont exist > to stretch the legal defininition of UK. > > When the tag is used in UK, I would understand that the UK contributors > want to follow a certain rule particular to their country. > > But I dont agree to deprecate the the leisure=common tag for Africa. > > > > Le mercredi 29 avril 2020 15 h 34 min 57 s UTC−4, Jean-Marc Liotier > a écrit : > > > Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar: > https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA - larger than a > street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a multipurpose common > area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or lounging around > also occur, and the occasional popular event) and usually surfaced with > sand or whatever the ground is. > > We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in Senegal and 486 in > Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) - which is a bit of > stretch from the British legal definition, but worked well enough and > did not conflict with its British usage. But leisure=common is now > deprecated > > So, what should we use instead ? > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon suggests using > leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch functionally but evokes > greenery that does not occur here (though British commons are just as > green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any other ideas ? Or I'm > going to use leisure=park+surface=sand ! > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Talk-ml] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement
So, this discussion gravitates towards using landuse=common for those African urban freely accessible multipurpose open spaces, which I fully support. Implementing this change requires the following actions: - Editing the leisure=common wiki page, in French and in English (I'll do that) - Reinstating the rendering of leisure=common in downstream cartographic styles, would be even better if the color matched the surface=* so that sandy surfaces don't appear green. - Reinstating the rendering of leisure=common in JOSM's default style (it recently changed to grey to mark deprecation). (I'll open a JOSM ticket - Altering QA rules (JOSM Validator and Osmose) so that the leisure=common deprecation only applies to the United Kingdom of Great Britain, where commons have a legal definition and designation=common must be used for them. (I'll open a JOSM ticket but if someone has prior experience interacting with the Osmose people, that would be nice) On 5/3/20 4:19 PM, severin.menard via Tagging wrote: Je suis d'accord avec Pierre : le tag landuse=common convient bien à ces espaces ouverts dans les villages et villes africaines et un parc n'a pas grand-chose à voir avec. I agree with Pierre: the tag landuse=common is well suited to these open spaces in African villages and towns and a park has little to do with it. ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ Le mercredi 29 avril 2020 21:59, Pierre Béland via Talk-ml a écrit : Like others, I did map many of these. I can tell you that we often see a common space in center of african villages, often near the school, and it is surely not green and have no facilities like in the Nordic countries parks. People have to understand that there are often no infrastructures in African villages. But young people still gather and play. I dont think that the OSM tagging schema should reflect the legal status in specific countries like UK. Various tags can reflect various realities. And leisure=common seems to be quite well adapted to Africa and dont exist to stretch the legal defininition of UK. When the tag is used in UK, I would understand that the UK contributors want to follow a certain rule particular to their country. But I dont agree to deprecate the the leisure=common tag for Africa. Le mercredi 29 avril 2020 15 h 34 min 57 s UTC−4, Jean-Marc Liotier a écrit : Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA - larger than a street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a multipurpose common area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or lounging around also occur, and the occasional popular event) and usually surfaced with sand or whatever the ground is. We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in Senegal and 486 in Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) - which is a bit of stretch from the British legal definition, but worked well enough and did not conflict with its British usage. But leisure=common is now deprecated So, what should we use instead ? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon suggests using leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch functionally but evokes greenery that does not occur here (though British commons are just as green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any other ideas ? Or I'm going to use leisure=park+surface=sand ! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Talk-ml] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement
Bonjour, Je suis d'accord avec Pierre : le tag landuse=common convient bien à ces espaces ouverts dans les villages et villes africaines et un parc n'a pas grand-chose à voir avec. Severin I agree with Pierre: the tag landuse=common is well suited to these open spaces in African villages and towns and a park has little to do with it. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ Le mercredi 29 avril 2020 21:59, Pierre Béland via Talk-ml a écrit : > Hi Jean-Marc > > Like others, I did map many of these. I can tell you that we often see a > common space in center of african villages, often near the school, and it > is surely not green and have no facilities like in the Nordic countries parks. > > People have to understand that there are often no infrastructures in African > villages. But young people still gather and play. > > I dont think that the OSM tagging schema should reflect the legal status in > specific countries like UK. Various tags can reflect various realities. And > leisure=common seems to be quite well adapted to Africa and dont exist to > stretch the legal defininition of UK. > > When the tag is used in UK, I would understand that the UK contributors want > to follow a certain rule particular to their country. > > But I dont agree to deprecate the the leisure=common tag for Africa. > > Pierre > > Le mercredi 29 avril 2020 15 h 34 min 57 s UTC−4, Jean-Marc Liotier > a écrit : > > Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar: > https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA- larger than a > street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a multipurpose common > area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or lounging around > also occur, and the occasional popular event) and usually surfaced with > sand or whatever the ground is. > > We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in Senegal and 486 in > Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) - which is a bit of > stretch from the British legal definition, but worked well enough and > did not conflict with its British usage. But leisure=common is now > deprecated > > So, what should we use instead ? > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommonsuggests using > leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch functionally but evokes > greenery that does not occur here (though British commons are just as > green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any other ideas ? Or I'm > going to use leisure=park+surface=sand ! > > ___ > Talk-ml mailing list > talk...@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ml___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Talk-ml] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement
On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 07:59:40PM +, Pierre Béland via Tagging wrote: > But I dont agree to deprecate the the leisure=common tag for Africa. +1 ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Talk-ml] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement
Hi Jean-Marc Like others, I did map many of these. I can tell you that we often see a common space in center of african villages, often near the school, and it is surely not green and have no facilities like in the Nordic countries parks. People have to understand that there are often no infrastructures in African villages. But young people still gather and play. I dont think that the OSM tagging schema should reflect the legal status in specific countries like UK. Various tags can reflect various realities. And leisure=common seems to be quite well adapted to Africa and dont exist to stretch the legal defininition of UK. When the tag is used in UK, I would understand that the UK contributors want to follow a certain rule particular to their country. But I dont agree to deprecate the the leisure=common tag for Africa. Pierre Le mercredi 29 avril 2020 15 h 34 min 57 s UTC−4, Jean-Marc Liotier a écrit : Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA - larger than a street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a multipurpose common area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or lounging around also occur, and the occasional popular event) and usually surfaced with sand or whatever the ground is. We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in Senegal and 486 in Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) - which is a bit of stretch from the British legal definition, but worked well enough and did not conflict with its British usage. But leisure=common is now deprecated So, what should we use instead ? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon suggests using leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch functionally but evokes greenery that does not occur here (though British commons are just as green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any other ideas ? Or I'm going to use leisure=park+surface=sand ! ___ Talk-ml mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ml ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
