Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
On 10/6/23 00:13, Anne-Karoline Distel wrote: That's what I mean, tourist busses. I see now that there is a tag (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tourist_bus), but my point is that it should also be rendered with a bus/ coach symbol. Also, they are often seasonal, at least in Ireland, so during the winter, can be used by cars, but during the season, only for coaches. How do we map that? seasonal=May-October (according to signage), but somehow connected to the "tourist_bus" key? Anne That could be a conditional tagging thing... possibly parking:conditional=motor_vehicle @ (seasonal=winter) ??? then follow it with similar for bus. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
sent from a phone > On 9 Jun 2023, at 12:56, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > > The difference between a coach and a bus? > > A 'coach' is intended for long distance transport - so more comfortable, > provision for luggage and possibly an on board toilet. yes, but this is a distinction like a car vs. a station wagon, a coach is a kind of bus and the differences (internally/design/features) are not relevant for the traffic rules. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
It was only a suggestion, I'm not gonna start the Maproulette task. Too much else to do. On 09/06/2023 23:06, Marc_marc wrote: Le 09.06.23 à 23:12, Anne-Karoline Distel a écrit : it might be useful to create a MapRoulette task to get rid of all the name tags. if you want to make a mass edit, please don't hide it under a MapRoulette task but send a notice/request to talk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
Le 09.06.23 à 23:12, Anne-Karoline Distel a écrit : it might be useful to create a MapRoulette task to get rid of all the name tags. if you want to make a mass edit, please don't hide it under a MapRoulette task but send a notice/request to talk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
Oh, yeah, it might be useful to create a MapRoulette task to get rid of all the name tags. Anne On 09/06/2023 21:46, Andy Townsend wrote: On 09/06/2023 21:21, Anne-Karoline Distel wrote: Since these are all descriptive values in the name which we are not supposed to do, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Two things really - one was in case one of them was your "name=coach" that you thought that you've seen; the other was that anyone seeing one of these near them (like https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/118443549 near me) might ask themselves whether more tags might be helpful. Best Regards, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
On 09/06/2023 21:21, Anne-Karoline Distel wrote: Since these are all descriptive values in the name which we are not supposed to do, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Two things really - one was in case one of them was your "name=coach" that you thought that you've seen; the other was that anyone seeing one of these near them (like https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/118443549 near me) might ask themselves whether more tags might be helpful. Best Regards, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
Since these are all descriptive values in the name which we are not supposed to do, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Anne On 09/06/2023 13:35, Andy Townsend wrote: On 09/06/2023 10:52, Greg Troxel wrote: Anne- Karoline Distel writes: I came across a case where someone had added name=coach and name=car to amenity=parking, which is obviously not how we do things [snip] I can't find it either. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name#values allows you to search within values, and entering "coach" in the search box at the right finds: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=Coach%20Park#overview https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=Coach%20Parking https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=Coaches https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=Coach%20Stop and also https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=car#overview which seems to be commonly used as a name for (presumably coach) parking in France Some of those (especially "Coach Park") are likely to be entirely valid names, but some may not be. Best Regards, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
capacity:coach depends entirely on the length/ size of the vehicle. This is the one that started the conversation: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/608428074 If you look at the mapillary, there is a left arrow for car parking and a right arrow for "bus park". This one is closer to home: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1180680774 The seasonality is marked on the road, as far as I recall. I would also think that public transport have depots (landuse=depot?) for off-duty parking. As far as I can ascertain, in Ireland "bus" and "coach" are both used for tourist busses, posher people tend to use "coach", methinks. But I'm not a native speaker. Tourists take public transport, too, anyway. Anne On 09/06/2023 17:19, Greg Troxel wrote: Colin Smale writes: UK native here... Looking at the vehicles, a bus would be more spartan, set up for fare collection, doors for speedy un/loading etc whereas a coach would almost always have only a single door (although some have more), be more luxurious, be equipped with seat belts etc. In bus-lover-land there are even so-called "Dual Purpose" vehicles which are in between being a bus and a coach. Looking at the usage of the vehicles, a bus would typically be used on scheduled services with a predefined timetable and (mostly) predefined stops, whereas a coach would often be used on "private hire" arrangements for one-off journeys. Having said that, there are many scheduled long-distance (city to city) services using coaches, and buses can also be used for private hire. There is also a grey area of express services with multiple stops along a predetermined route (I am thinking of the old Green Line network for example). From the perspective of traffic law, a "Bus Lane" may be restricted to scheduled services by a licensed operator. Even empty buses returning to the depot may not be allowed (as it is not on "active service"). Other bus lanes might also allow private hire vehicles, it depends on the specific legislation. My main point being that the way the vehicle is constructed may not be enough to determine whether it can use a bus lane or use a coach parking area - the circumstances of its use may also be significant. Thanks. That is complicated, and it's interesting how close the bus/coach distinction is to US usage. For this case, I think Anne might be asking about a parking lot (carpark) where buses/coaches can park, such as at a tourist attraction type place, where there is either a lot for cars and one for buses, or one with sections. I would expect the fare/scheduled/etc. city buses would not park out in the world, and there would be some sort of depot that is in an industrial area, for only the buses belonging to that agency. so to me it sounds like amenity=coach_parking or capacity:coach is reasonable, leaving the access rules fuzzy (but no fuzzier than they are in general) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
Le 09.06.23 à 14:35, Andy Townsend a écrit : https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=car#overview which seems to be commonly used as a name for (presumably coach) parking in France yes car in French mean long distance bus but i never see a sign with "long distance bus only", so I suppose it mean bus=yes ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
Le 09.06.23 à 16:24, Greg Troxel a écrit : It seems coach is for distance and 'bus' is used for within a city as part of a rapid transit system. and what for "coach (long distance) and (local) bus" ? doesn a traffic sign exist for both ? if not, the isssue isn't the english wording about the value ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
Le 09.06.23 à 11:52, Greg Troxel a écrit : I find the women/parents strange, as I have never seen such spaces some shop have "family" parking_space closer to the entrance or where there is a larger pedestrian area so that the first child can wait in safety while the parent looks after the second. If the wiki doesn't have a photo, I'll take one. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
Colin Smale writes: > UK native here... > > Looking at the vehicles, a bus would be more spartan, set up for fare > collection, doors for speedy un/loading etc whereas a coach would > almost always have only a single door (although some have more), be > more luxurious, be equipped with seat belts etc. In bus-lover-land > there are even so-called "Dual Purpose" vehicles which are in between > being a bus and a coach. > > Looking at the usage of the vehicles, a bus would typically be used on > scheduled services with a predefined timetable and (mostly) predefined > stops, whereas a coach would often be used on "private hire" > arrangements for one-off journeys. > > Having said that, there are many scheduled long-distance (city to > city) services using coaches, and buses can also be used for private > hire. There is also a grey area of express services with multiple > stops along a predetermined route (I am thinking of the old Green Line > network for example). > > From the perspective of traffic law, a "Bus Lane" may be restricted to > scheduled services by a licensed operator. Even empty buses returning > to the depot may not be allowed (as it is not on "active > service"). Other bus lanes might also allow private hire vehicles, it > depends on the specific legislation. > > My main point being that the way the vehicle is constructed may not be > enough to determine whether it can use a bus lane or use a coach > parking area - the circumstances of its use may also be significant. Thanks. That is complicated, and it's interesting how close the bus/coach distinction is to US usage. For this case, I think Anne might be asking about a parking lot (carpark) where buses/coaches can park, such as at a tourist attraction type place, where there is either a lot for cars and one for buses, or one with sections. I would expect the fare/scheduled/etc. city buses would not park out in the world, and there would be some sort of depot that is in an industrial area, for only the buses belonging to that agency. so to me it sounds like amenity=coach_parking or capacity:coach is reasonable, leaving the access rules fuzzy (but no fuzzier than they are in general) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
On Fri, 2023-06-09 at 10:24 -0400, Greg Troxel wrote: > Anne-Karoline Distel writes: > > > [women's and parent's parking] > > I can believe it exists, and it being common in .eu explains why it's > in > the josm presets. > > You're right about caravans/ RVs, that should be its own tag as > > well and > > be rendered. Generally there is parking provided for coaches as they bring a lot of people to spend money. For large motor homes the rule is usually buy as many pay and display tickets as the number of car size spaces you are taking up. > > For coaches, I'm in favour of amenity=coach_parking (or > > "bus_parking", if people don't like the term "coach". This might be > > easier for non-native British English speakers), since that's how > > it's > > done with cars and bicycles. > > I would use the normal UK term, as OSM tradition is to use UK > English. > It seems coach is for distance and 'bus' is used for within a city as > part of a rapid transit system. But we need an en_GB native speaker > to > opine. > > In the US people do use "motorcoach" to refer to a "tour bus" when > trying to make it sound fancy, so I don't think coach_parking will > confuse most en_US speakers. But e.g. Greyhound calls itself bus. Greyhound is however a PSV too, operated by coaches (as are National Express in the UK). They both operate a regular service to a published timetable and carry anyone who pays the fare. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
UK native here... Looking at the vehicles, a bus would be more spartan, set up for fare collection, doors for speedy un/loading etc whereas a coach would almost always have only a single door (although some have more), be more luxurious, be equipped with seat belts etc. In bus-lover-land there are even so-called "Dual Purpose" vehicles which are in between being a bus and a coach. Looking at the usage of the vehicles, a bus would typically be used on scheduled services with a predefined timetable and (mostly) predefined stops, whereas a coach would often be used on "private hire" arrangements for one-off journeys. Having said that, there are many scheduled long-distance (city to city) services using coaches, and buses can also be used for private hire. There is also a grey area of express services with multiple stops along a predetermined route (I am thinking of the old Green Line network for example). >From the perspective of traffic law, a "Bus Lane" may be restricted to >scheduled services by a licensed operator. Even empty buses returning to the >depot may not be allowed (as it is not on "active service"). Other bus lanes >might also allow private hire vehicles, it depends on the specific legislation. My main point being that the way the vehicle is constructed may not be enough to determine whether it can use a bus lane or use a coach parking area - the circumstances of its use may also be significant. Colin > On 09/06/2023 16:24 CEST Greg Troxel wrote: > > > Anne-Karoline Distel writes: > > > [women's and parent's parking] > > I can believe it exists, and it being common in .eu explains why it's in > the josm presets. > > You're right about caravans/ RVs, that should be its own tag as well and > > be rendered. For coaches, I'm in favour of amenity=coach_parking (or > > "bus_parking", if people don't like the term "coach". This might be > > easier for non-native British English speakers), since that's how it's > > done with cars and bicycles. > > I would use the normal UK term, as OSM tradition is to use UK English. > It seems coach is for distance and 'bus' is used for within a city as > part of a rapid transit system. But we need an en_GB native speaker to > opine. > > In the US people do use "motorcoach" to refer to a "tour bus" when > trying to make it sound fancy, so I don't think coach_parking will > confuse most en_US speakers. But e.g. Greyhound calls itself bus. > > > On a cynical sidenote, we're gonna need "SUV_parking" soon, because they > > take up so much space. > > I guess when you see it in the wild we can talk about how to map it. > > In many parking garages in the US, there are spaces labeled "compact car > only" which is a way of saying "this parking space isn't long enough". > But generally there are some of those and many regular and nobody has to > think about it, and I know of no place where you can't park in the > facility at all if you don't have a compact car. > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
Anne-Karoline Distel writes: > [women's and parent's parking] I can believe it exists, and it being common in .eu explains why it's in the josm presets. > You're right about caravans/ RVs, that should be its own tag as well and > be rendered. For coaches, I'm in favour of amenity=coach_parking (or > "bus_parking", if people don't like the term "coach". This might be > easier for non-native British English speakers), since that's how it's > done with cars and bicycles. I would use the normal UK term, as OSM tradition is to use UK English. It seems coach is for distance and 'bus' is used for within a city as part of a rapid transit system. But we need an en_GB native speaker to opine. In the US people do use "motorcoach" to refer to a "tour bus" when trying to make it sound fancy, so I don't think coach_parking will confuse most en_US speakers. But e.g. Greyhound calls itself bus. > On a cynical sidenote, we're gonna need "SUV_parking" soon, because they > take up so much space. I guess when you see it in the wild we can talk about how to map it. In many parking garages in the US, there are spaces labeled "compact car only" which is a way of saying "this parking space isn't long enough". But generally there are some of those and many regular and nobody has to think about it, and I know of no place where you can't park in the facility at all if you don't have a compact car. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
That's what I mean, tourist busses. I see now that there is a tag (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tourist_bus), but my point is that it should also be rendered with a bus/ coach symbol. Also, they are often seasonal, at least in Ireland, so during the winter, can be used by cars, but during the season, only for coaches. How do we map that? seasonal=May-October (according to signage), but somehow connected to the "tourist_bus" key? Anne On 09/06/2023 11:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: sent from a phone On 9 Jun 2023, at 12:04, Greg Troxel wrote: I can't find it either. I remembered that JOSM presets have a lot more detail than the wiki. But I checked, and I don't see anything about "coaches" (which I think is the word in EU for what we Yanks would call "bus", a large vehicle that can transport say 40 people). there is tourist_bus (a bus class vehicle which is not a psv). In the EU a bus is a motor vehicle with more than 8+1 seats ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
Hi, parking spaces for women are usually closer to the entrance to the shop, so the rapist doens't get a chance to get you, if you're too far into a vast parking garage and nobody can hear you scream. Or maybe just to make you feel safer. Parents' parking is closer to the shop/ shopping trolley return point, so your toddler doesn't have to walk too far or you don't have to carry them all the way back to the car or leave them unattended in the car, while you're returning the trolley. Both options are quite common in Europe. You're right about caravans/ RVs, that should be its own tag as well and be rendered. For coaches, I'm in favour of amenity=coach_parking (or "bus_parking", if people don't like the term "coach". This might be easier for non-native British English speakers), since that's how it's done with cars and bicycles. On a cynical sidenote, we're gonna need "SUV_parking" soon, because they take up so much space. Anne On 09/06/2023 10:52, Greg Troxel wrote: Anne- Karoline Distel writes: I came across a case where someone had added name=coach and name=car to amenity=parking, which is obviously not how we do things [snip] I can't find it either. I remembered that JOSM presets have a lot more detail than the wiki. But I checked, and I don't see anything about "coaches" (which I think is the word in EU for what we Yanks would call "bus", a large vehicle that can transport say 40 people). In JOSM, I see spaces overall spaces for disabled spaces for women spaces for parents but the implication is that these are all car-sized. I find the women/parents strange, as I have never seen such spaces. In the US pretty much everywhere has restricted parking for disabled only (one has to display a placard which is a government-issued license to use these spaces, needs a doctor's certification, likely similar elsewhere). I am guessing they exist someplace though. The tags are e.g. capacity:parent=1. I mention this because one could easily extend and add capacity:coach=N Another approach would be, if the parking lot (en:GB: carpark er coachpark) is for buses/coaches only: amenity=coach_parking This also brings up "Recreational Vehicles", abbreviated RV, which I think might be "caravan" in en_GB (in en_US, caravan refers to a group of perhaps related vehicles traveling together). There are often spaces for those, as they don't fit in car spaces. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
On 09/06/2023 10:52, Greg Troxel wrote: Anne- Karoline Distel writes: I came across a case where someone had added name=coach and name=car to amenity=parking, which is obviously not how we do things [snip] I can't find it either. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name#values allows you to search within values, and entering "coach" in the search box at the right finds: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=Coach%20Park#overview https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=Coach%20Parking https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=Coaches https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=Coach%20Stop and also https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=car#overview which seems to be commonly used as a name for (presumably coach) parking in France Some of those (especially "Coach Park") are likely to be entirely valid names, but some may not be. Best Regards, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
On 9/6/23 20:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: sent from a phone On 9 Jun 2023, at 12:04, Greg Troxel wrote: I can't find it either. I remembered that JOSM presets have a lot more detail than the wiki. But I checked, and I don't see anything about "coaches" (which I think is the word in EU for what we Yanks would call "bus", a large vehicle that can transport say 40 people). there is tourist_bus (a bus class vehicle which is not a psv). In the EU a bus is a motor vehicle with more than 8+1 seats The difference between a coach and a bus? A 'coach' is intended for long distance transport - so more comfortable, provision for luggage and possibly an on board toilet. A 'bus' is usually shorter distances example commuting to and from work. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
sent from a phone > On 9 Jun 2023, at 12:04, Greg Troxel wrote: > > I can't find it either. I remembered that JOSM presets have a lot more > detail than the wiki. But I checked, and I don't see anything about > "coaches" (which I think is the word in EU for what we Yanks would call > "bus", a large vehicle that can transport say 40 people). there is tourist_bus (a bus class vehicle which is not a psv). In the EU a bus is a motor vehicle with more than 8+1 seats ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Coach parking
Anne- Karoline Distel writes: > I came across a case where someone had added name=coach and name=car > to amenity=parking, which is obviously not how we do things [snip] I can't find it either. I remembered that JOSM presets have a lot more detail than the wiki. But I checked, and I don't see anything about "coaches" (which I think is the word in EU for what we Yanks would call "bus", a large vehicle that can transport say 40 people). In JOSM, I see spaces overall spaces for disabled spaces for women spaces for parents but the implication is that these are all car-sized. I find the women/parents strange, as I have never seen such spaces. In the US pretty much everywhere has restricted parking for disabled only (one has to display a placard which is a government-issued license to use these spaces, needs a doctor's certification, likely similar elsewhere). I am guessing they exist someplace though. The tags are e.g. capacity:parent=1. I mention this because one could easily extend and add capacity:coach=N Another approach would be, if the parking lot (en:GB: carpark er coachpark) is for buses/coaches only: amenity=coach_parking This also brings up "Recreational Vehicles", abbreviated RV, which I think might be "caravan" in en_GB (in en_US, caravan refers to a group of perhaps related vehicles traveling together). There are often spaces for those, as they don't fit in car spaces. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Coach parking
I came across a case where someone had added name=coach and name=car to amenity=parking, which is obviously not how we do things, but I can't find a good way to mark coach parking as such. I've added bus=yes in the meantime, but that won't render a bus icon instead of a car icon, I believe, which would however be useful.This is often needed in touristy places where there are separate parking areas for coaches and cars. Hard to believe nobody has thought of it before, and maybe I'm just too incompetent to find it on the wiki.Cheers,Anne--Sent from my Android phone with WEB.DE Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
