Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
Am 05.05.2010 06:17, schrieb John F. Eldredge: Yes, that is the origin of the term. However, usage of words shifts over time, often into multiple meanings, depending upon context. From what I have heard, a coffeehouse in Amsterdam, Holland, now means a place that sells marijuana, not one that sells coffee. It's called a coffee shop[1] and those are available throughout the netherlands. You can buy soft drugs and soft drinks (maybe a coffee) for local consumption, but you'll often won't get any cakes or alike or any alcohol there. But seeking for corner cases throughout the world is probably not the best way to find a good way to tag things. I guess even most dutch mappers won't tag a coffee shop as amenity=cafe, because the main purpose to get there is not to get a coffee. Regards, ULFL [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_coffee_shop ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
Am 05.05.2010 07:47, schrieb Roy Wallace: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:22 PM, John Smithdeltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 4 May 2010 18:14, Roy Wallacewaldo000...@gmail.com wrote: 1) allow for the specification of more than one type simultaneously, e.g. amenity=A;B, amenity=B;C, etc., or 2) change/specify in more detail the definitions of A, B and C so that they *are* mutually exclusive, or 3) be forced to tag things incorrectly Which option shall it be? I vote 2, which includes the option of just using amenity=D (where D=A OR B OR C) Do you have any concrete examples? So, I've been asked for a concrete example, presumably referring to how to define fast_food/restaurant/cafe *mutually exclusively*. I looked at the current wiki definitions for all three tags, and these are the best, new *mutually exclusive* definitions I could come up with, in the form of a flowchart: http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1179/amenity.gif If you have suggestions to improve the flowchart, that's great - the main point is that, I believe, it is possible to precisely define the definitions of cafe/amenity/restaurant. And, I would suggest a unified flowchart in this case makes life easier than comparing three separate, vague wiki pages, or by doing mental experiments. You are asking for black and white definitions/decisions where there's lot's of room for grey. What about a place that serves limited breakfast in the morning, would classify as a cafe throughout the day, serves full meals only at noon and becomes a bar selling cocktails at night? What you can do is try to find good descriptions so that most people understand what is meant and decide locally how to tag it best. Regardless how fine grained you are doing this, there will always be corner cases where two people will disagree with each other. What you just can't do is find a precise definition that is valid throughout the world and will be doubtless in all possible situations. BTW: The flowchart is using highly subjective language heavily-advertised pseudo-food which is *very* certainly not a good way to find a concensus. Why does it try to offence junk food fans? Oh, and the definition of pseudo food will very certainly differ between people from the western world and people in africa starving right now. Regards, ULFL ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 5 May 2010 18:30, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: BTW: The flowchart is using highly subjective language heavily-advertised pseudo-food which is *very* certainly not a good way to find a concensus. Why does it try to offence junk food fans? Oh, and the definition of pseudo food will very certainly differ between people from the western world and people in africa starving right now. I don't know how prolific it is, but there have been cases proper restaurants preparing meals or at least parts of meals ahead of time, I agree that criteria should be dropped and instead focus on the average time the customer expect before receiving their meal. Apart from junk food fans, there is the case of consistency, even if it isn't consistently great it might be the lesser of other evils, for example if you are used to having breakfast cereals with low amounts of sugar in your culture and you end up in one that doesn't eat anything but pure sugar as if it's going out of fashion for breakfast you might get an inkling of where I'm coming from. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 6 May 2010 01:06, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: yes, but what do you do if all those functions are primary? Sometimes this is the case. Multiple POIs... or one node with multiple relations... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
Am 05.05.2010 22:36, schrieb Roy Wallace: There's only room for grey (w.r.t. the OSM definitions) if we want there to be. Following the OSM discussions for years now I would say: That's an illusion. I think I do understand your point, though, that you think it better to keep using these tags in a fuzzy, subjective, variable way throughout the world. Trying to redefine a vague definition existing for years with something more exact a lot later on is just asking for trouble. Regards, ULFL ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 05.05.2010 22:36, schrieb Roy Wallace: There's only room for grey (w.r.t. the OSM definitions) if we want there to be. Following the OSM discussions for years now I would say: That's an illusion. Ok. Though I don't understand, I'll take your word for it and shut up :) I think I do understand your point, though, that you think it better to keep using these tags in a fuzzy, subjective, variable way throughout the world. Trying to redefine a vague definition existing for years with something more exact a lot later on is just asking for trouble. Ok, I'll give up. But I will just point out that, while you insist it is just asking for trouble, imagine a wiki page that says something like: If you're not sure whether the place should be tagged as an amenity=restaurant, cafe or fast_food, this flowchart is provided as a guide. However, keep in mind that these tags have been used vaguely and subjectively for years, and may continue to be used as such into the future. That seems an improvement to me, but it appears I am alone. Bye. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 6 May 2010 06:12, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: I would think a semi-colon delimited value would be better in this case - certainly better than multiple POIs, and no less supported than multiple relations (right?) If an app supports relations, it wouldn't matter if there is 1 or 10, however most software I've tried doesn't bother to expand multiple values separated by semicolons... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com writes: Ok, I'll give up. But I will just point out that, while you insist it is just asking for trouble, imagine a wiki page that says something like: If you're not sure whether the place should be tagged as an amenity=restaurant, cafe or fast_food, this flowchart is provided as a guide. However, keep in mind that these tags have been used vaguely and subjectively for years, and may continue to be used as such into the future. That seems an improvement to me, but it appears I am alone. Bye. You're not alone. Your flowchart was helpful to clarify how at least some people think. pgpLMpZGy8Uwv.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 9:41 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 6 May 2010 06:12, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: I would think a semi-colon delimited value would be better in this case - certainly better than multiple POIs, and no less supported than multiple relations (right?) If an app supports relations, it wouldn't matter if there is 1 or 10, however most software I've tried doesn't bother to expand multiple values separated by semicolons... You're right, actually. But it seems like a pretty nasty hack to use relations for this purpose, that is, simultaneously defining more than 1 value for a key. From the wiki: relations are basically groups of objects in which each object may take on a specific role. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
(note: removed talk-us) On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 2:39 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: ... It's a big world out there and there is bound to be grey areas that local knowledge will tags things one way or the other... There is bound to be grey areas only if we continue to use these tags as currently defined in the wiki. The problem is that we must choose amenity=A OR B OR C, where A, B, and C are not mutually exclusive. This is the cause of the problem. We either need to: 1) allow for the specification of more than one type simultaneously, e.g. amenity=A;B, amenity=B;C, etc., or 2) change/specify in more detail the definitions of A, B and C so that they *are* mutually exclusive, or 3) be forced to tag things incorrectly Which option shall it be? I vote 2, which includes the option of just using amenity=D (where D=A OR B OR C) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 4 May 2010 18:14, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: 1) allow for the specification of more than one type simultaneously, e.g. amenity=A;B, amenity=B;C, etc., or 2) change/specify in more detail the definitions of A, B and C so that they *are* mutually exclusive, or 3) be forced to tag things incorrectly Which option shall it be? I vote 2, which includes the option of just using amenity=D (where D=A OR B OR C) Do you have any concrete examples? Most McDonald's restaurants have tables and sit down areas, but we tag them as fast food because that is the politically correct way to refer to junk food... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:22 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: Do you have any concrete examples? Most McDonald's restaurants have tables and sit down areas, but we tag them as fast food because that is the politically correct way to refer to junk food... The discussions have been very helpful... Some of the inconsistencies I found in the Washington DC area were with my own edits :() In my earlier edits, I regarded places like Chipotle and even Subway as restaurants. Although healthier, I now definitely regard Subway as fast food and in more recent edits tagged it that way. Then I learned about our zoning criteria and realized fast casual places like Chipotle could also be regarded as fast food... fast casual places tend to be a little bit nicer, the food better and not regarded the same way as McDonalds. In the database for just the Washington DC area, we have six Chipotles tagged as amenity=fast_food (mostly added by myself, but by four users in all) and seven tagged as amenity=restaurant. (mostly added by me, by four users total) All the Chipotles I have been to are consistent in every aspect, unlike Pizza Huts which can vary. Although from the discussion, it seems like either amenity=restaurant or amenity=fast_food and mixed tags would be okay in general, I still would like some guidance or suggestions on what to do for tagging Chipotle, as a specific case. In other cases, I'm fine with having some variation (especially across different regions) and the renderer can deal with it. Regards, Katie ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Katie Filbert @filbertkm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 5 May 2010 09:22, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: (Just to make life even hearder: is McCafe a cafe or fast food?) Maybe it's all three at the same time... Does it have a sit down and eat area restaurant Is the food delievered in less than 5 minutes (usually)... fast_food Is there a distinctive cafe section which primarily does coffee and muffins cafe ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
At 2010-05-04 12:04, Phil! Gold wrote: * Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net [2010-05-04 09:47 -0700]: I generally regard fast_food as a place where you have to walk up to a counter and order your food. Even if they do bring it out to your table when ready, they will not generally come back to refill your drinks or bring additional courses. Tips are not expected. With those criteria, what distinguishes fast_food from cafe? At the risk of bringing up the ambiguous meaning of cafe discussion again :) I'm using cafe for coffee-houses like Starbucks, with very limited, usually pre-made, offerings like sandwiches and pastries. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 5 May 2010 11:15, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Would you call dunkin donuts fast food? I do, because I get more of a megacorp volume feel than a quality food feel there. I think most I think you are being a tad bias, since small corner stores in Australia sell fast food of lesser quality than mega corps, so I don't think the size of the company should be an indication of anything. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com writes: On 5 May 2010 11:15, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Would you call dunkin donuts fast food? I do, because I get more of a megacorp volume feel than a quality food feel there. I think most I think you are being a tad bias, since small corner stores in Australia sell fast food of lesser quality than mega corps, so I don't think the size of the company should be an indication of anything. Fair enough. If you judge on food quality and is food presented faster than it could reasonably be preparted then I think we're in closer agreement. pgp1rKa516KM7.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 5 May 2010 11:37, Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote: I'd actually prefer something like shop=donut to cafe, since it seems that Isn't cafe a French word for coffee? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 5/4/10 9:51 PM, John Smith wrote: On 5 May 2010 11:36, Greg Troxelg...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Fair enough. If you judge on food quality and is food presented faster than it could reasonably be preparted then I think we're in closer agreement. My point was, we shouldn't base a tagging criteria other than operator=*, just because a company is a large mega corp or not... perhaps we need crap=yes cheers, richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 5 May 2010 11:58, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: perhaps we need crap=yes To be more effective, and less subjective, you will probably need sub-tagging to define who it's crap too crap:snobby_elite=yes crap:student=no crap:homeless=no etc... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 5/4/10 11:15 PM, John Smith wrote: On 5 May 2010 12:51, Richard Weltyrwe...@averillpark.net wrote: crap:mega=yes as well. That doesn't make any sense... lots and lots of crap: mega crap ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:19 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 May 2010 09:22, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: (Just to make life even hearder: is McCafe a cafe or fast food?) Maybe it's all three at the same time... Does it have a sit down and eat area restaurant Is the food delievered in less than 5 minutes (usually)... fast_food Is there a distinctive cafe section which primarily does coffee and muffins cafe Is there anything wrong with using: amenity=cafe;fast_food;restaurant? If not, that approach, plus those 3 definitions from John look pretty good to me (although maybe replace muffins with cooked snacks, or something). Whack all of that on the wiki, plus define amenity=food for a place serving food that doesn't meet any of the other definitions, and we should be able to avoid having this conversation again. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: Is there anything wrong with using: amenity=cafe;fast_food;restaurant? If not, that approach, plus those One problem would be the conversion of such a thing to GPS formats. I guess you could stack three POIs in one place, but it wouldn't be pretty. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 5 May 2010 14:26, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: Is there anything wrong with using: amenity=cafe;fast_food;restaurant? If not, that approach, plus those It's rarely a good idea to jam tags together into a single key like that, most applications have enough trouble with the complexities of single key/value pairs... It would be better to tag the primary function of a business, and add modifiers... Imho the main function of a McDonalds is to turn over patrons as quickly as possible to sell as much food as possible, where as most restaurants would have longer average occupation times... so amenity=fast_food cafe=yes/no seating/resturant=yes/no drive_through=yes/no etc ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: The entire reason such tagging is useful (vs. amenity=food) is that people can ask find me a nearby cafe. When I ask that, I want a coffee shop that serves sandwiches, or a sandwich shop that serves coffee, or something like that -- that I'm likely to be glad I went to. I definitely don't want McDonald's If I asked find me a nearby cafe, a McCafe would be fine with me! One of the key distinctions in practice is that mega-corpooration heavily-advertised pseudofood is fast food, and independent coffee shops are cafe. At least that's how everyone I know sees it. Unfortunately, you don't know everyone. The Coffee Club, for example, is certainly not independent, but I'd call it a cafe. You can call this bias and subjectivity, but I call it communication based on a shared vocabulary. I call it bias and subjectivity. It's only a shared vocabulary if the vocabulary is shared. It's one thing to define amenity=cafe in a certain way that may be counter-intuitive to some (that's fine! put it on the wiki! I'll look up the definition!), but it's madness to not bother defining it at all. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 2:32 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: It would be better to tag the primary function of a business, and add modifiers... So amenity=fast_food + cafe=yes would be roughly equivalent to amenity=cafe + fast_food=yes? Interesting proposal. It seems like a plausible workaround for indicating a plurality of amenity=* values without resorting to a semicolon-delimited list - though it remains a *workaround*, nonetheless. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 5 May 2010 14:39, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: So amenity=fast_food + cafe=yes would be roughly equivalent to amenity=cafe + fast_food=yes? Interesting proposal. It seems like a plausible workaround for indicating a plurality of amenity=* values without resorting to a semicolon-delimited list - though it remains a *workaround*, nonetheless. We don't do highway=residential;oneway why should this be any different? the amenity=fast_food is the primary function of the POI, it has a secondary functions of cafe=yes, restaurant=yes and drive_through=yes... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
At 2010-05-04 21:32, John Smith wrote: ... amenity=fast_food cafe=yes/no seating/resturant=yes/no drive_through=yes/no I've been using motorcar=yes/no for drive-through, similar to access. This did require tweaking of the rendering style in JOSM, which had this tag too far up in position (and the same priority) so it was being rendered instead of the other more definitive tags (like amenity I think). -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
I'm interested in feedback on how to tag particular chain restaurants/places. I have a copy of the OSM planet database and see inconsistencies in how these places are tagged. * Baskin Robbins (fast food?) * Chipotle Mexican Grill (fast food or restaurant?) * COSI (restaurant or cafe?) * Five Guys (restaurant or fast food?) * Fuddruckers (restaurant or fast food?) * Panera Bread (restaurant or cafe?) * Pizza Hut (restaurant or fast food?) * Potbelly (restaurant or cafe?) others? I set up a wiki page where you can give feedback, or feedback on the mailing list is fine too. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag_guide To guide the fast food or restaurant question, I consider whether food is paid for prior to eating (e.g. at a counter) and whether or not disposable plates, utensils, etc. are used. This is often consistent with criteria used in classifying places for zoning purposes. http://bit.ly/96j7HB (DC zoning - PDF) http://bit.ly/cvh1X4 (Scituate, Massachusetts - PDF) http://bit.ly/cnAq2J (Jupiter, Florida - PDF) Regards, Katie -- Katie Filbert @filbertkm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 3 May 2010 19:39, Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com wrote: To guide the fast food or restaurant question, I consider whether food is paid for prior to eating (e.g. at a counter) and whether or not disposable plates, utensils, etc. are used. This is often consistent with criteria used in classifying places for zoning purposes. This may not be consistent world wide... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:49 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: On 3 May 2010 19:39, Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com wrote: To guide the fast food or restaurant question, I consider whether food is paid for prior to eating (e.g. at a counter) and whether or not disposable plates, utensils, etc. are used. This is often consistent with criteria used in classifying places for zoning purposes. This may not be consistent world wide... True... I think use of disposable plates, cups, utensils is more common in the US. Whether or not the place has table service might be a better consideration. What criteria do you use to decide? -Katie ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Katie Filbert @filbertkm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 3 May 2010 20:30, Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com wrote: True... I think use of disposable plates, cups, utensils is more common in the US. Whether or not the place has table service might be a better consideration. What criteria do you use to decide? Why does it need to be a unifying criteria? Provide the tags, people will come up with their own criteria based on their own cultural background, while they will be similar, there will be subtle differences. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 3 May 2010 21:07, Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com wrote: So it's okay for, say all the Burger Kings, to be inconsistently tagged... some as amenity=fast_food, some as amenity=restaurant? As I said, the majority of criteria will be similar, however there will be differences in what people think of as fast food. I would prefer to see some tagging consistency across chains... especially chains that have locations mainly in the US (or Canada) such as the ones listed, but curious if others prefer otherwise. I'd love to see a lot more consistency, but this is hard to push to sell in general... For these chains, I'm interested in feedback on how people would tag them. Ok, this is more plausible, however your original email dealt with fast food places in general... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com writes: * Baskin Robbins (fast food?) This is the missing ice cream shop I think. But if they serve other food, it's made to order, and they have table service - restaurant. * Fuddruckers (restaurant or fast food?) tough call * Panera Bread (restaurant or cafe?) cafe - food is made to order, and while fast, it's real food. Basically my rules are: restaurant: full menu, table service, can walk in for dinner or lunch and get a proper meal fast food: pre-made hamburgers etc. with counter ordering. tends to be not 'real food' from the foodie-nut point of view. definitely burger king etc. is this category. I also put dunkin donuts in this category. cafe: place to get coffee and light food, typically no table service, but limited menu. (You may ask: what's the difference between cafe and fast food? 1) cafe has 'real food' vs chemically engineered pseudofood. 2) cafe tends to be a nice place to go vs a place to go when you don't have time to eat and are desparate. That has lots of bias, but it's an important distinction. I'd put starbucks here, just barely. independent coffee shops almost certainly. ice cream stand - this is tough, and it's sort of like a cafe that has ice cream instead. I try to think: what will map users want to know. This is all heading down the slippery slope of a full ontology for the world and also encoding judgement. My bias is clear: a cafe is a nice place to go, fast food is to be avoided. pgpD8r5UA59oq.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 3 May 2010, at 5:18 , Greg Troxel wrote: Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com writes: * Baskin Robbins (fast food?) This is the missing ice cream shop I think. But if they serve other food, it's made to order, and they have table service - restaurant. * Fuddruckers (restaurant or fast food?) tough call * Panera Bread (restaurant or cafe?) cafe - food is made to order, and while fast, it's real food. Basically my rules are: restaurant: full menu, table service, can walk in for dinner or lunch and get a proper meal fast food: pre-made hamburgers etc. with counter ordering. tends to be not 'real food' from the foodie-nut point of view. definitely burger king etc. is this category. I also put dunkin donuts in this category. cafe: place to get coffee and light food, typically no table service, but limited menu. (You may ask: what's the difference between cafe and fast food? 1) cafe has 'real food' vs chemically engineered pseudofood. 2) cafe tends to be a nice place to go vs a place to go when you don't have time to eat and are desparate. That has lots of bias, but it's an important distinction. I'd put starbucks here, just barely. independent coffee shops almost certainly. ice cream stand - this is tough, and it's sort of like a cafe that has ice cream instead. I try to think: what will map users want to know. This is all heading down the slippery slope of a full ontology for the world and also encoding judgement. My bias is clear: a cafe is a nice place to go, fast food is to be avoided. good summary. and because of the rule fast food to be avoided I rarely map these. and interestingly I see more real restaurants and cafe in osm. are most mappers foodies? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
Liz ed...@billiau.net writes: On Mon, 3 May 2010, Greg Troxel wrote: cafe - food is made to order, and while fast, it's real food. Basically my rules are: snip so how would you classify the shop which sells magnificent hamburgers, ordered at the counter, cooked to order, no table service? That's probably over the line into restauarant. But basically, I'd ask if many/most people think it's a fun destination, vs a choice made only when pressed. (grownup people, not 6 year olds :-) but its also a newsagent and convenience store so it doesn't have any 'cafe ambience' That's what I meant about the slippery slope to a full ontology. The real bug in OSM's tagging scheme is that it is structured like foo=bar bar=baz when really there should be muliple top level tags (you can do this) and multiple branching points, like a=b b=c;d c=e d=f g=h but then this is hard to deal with, and converting for display or garmin or anything else is hard, because most schemas want things binned into one or the other. http://osm.org/go/uHaGmxZEc- pgpNqVMIVgvUo.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: That's what I meant about the slippery slope to a full ontology. The real bug in OSM's tagging scheme is that it is structured like IMHO, the real issue is that OSM is a map, and rating food is not map like. At its tidiest OSM would merely store the address corresponding to a geographical location, and all issues of who the current tenant of that location is, what kind of food or filth they serve would be somebody else's problem. Of course, that would leave OSM much the poorer for a long time. But really I don't think there will be any brilliant solution within the current framework. Roads, yes. Places you can look for food, yes. Detailed information about the culinary offerings of different establishments, no. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 4 May 2010 12:08, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: IMHO, the real issue is that OSM is a map, and rating food is not map like. At its tidiest OSM would merely store the address corresponding Alternatively you could have just said it was a subjective method of tagging that the next person to come along wouldn't be able to confirm. Although there is nothing stopping people downloading the list of locations from OSM and then creating their own mashups like www.osmfuel.org site which adds the ability to add prices for various fuel grades to each location. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 8:41 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Why does it need to be a unifying criteria? Provide the tags, people will come up with their own criteria based on their own cultural background, while they will be similar, there will be subtle differences. I think we can avoid having multiple meanings for identical tags in the OSM database. (though I realise you disagree, John). As for cafe vs. restaurant vs. fast_food, to look at the bigger picture...I'm seriously wondering whether those tags even have *verifiable* distinctions (of course, this depends on their definition). If the value is not verifiable, cafe/restaurant/fast_food tags should not be used, and instead they should be replaced with amenity=food (or equivalent). At least that can be verified. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 4 May 2010 14:24, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: I think we can avoid having multiple meanings for identical tags in the OSM database. (though I realise you disagree, John). I'm not disagreeing with the intent of Katie, I just don't think it's possible to lump all fast food places everywhere into a nice tidy box... It's a big world out there and there is bound to be grey areas that local knowledge will tags things one way or the other... As for cafe vs. restaurant vs. fast_food, to look at the bigger picture...I'm seriously wondering whether those tags even have *verifiable* distinctions (of course, this depends on their definition). It seems to me that people are using fast_food interchangeably with junk_food, in Australia in recent years McDonalds have been pushing hard to clean up their image, as a result they only cook food to order, and they no longer have fast food, but slow food... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
