Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Peter Neale via Tagging]

   
>Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 09:24:29 +0100
>From: Philip Barnes 
>To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct
 >   marketing)
>Message-ID:
    <9a4ded38d9d06eb2351967a6b36f22d2c4e73497.ca...@trigpoint.me.uk>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

>On Sun, 2020-10-04 at 15:44 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> 
> >
> >
>> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 09:32, Paul Allen  wrote:
>> > However, if we count that as a farm shop then the term essentially
>> > becomes an alias of greengrocer.
>> > A greengrocer with a single supplier, but still a greengrocer.
>> > 
>> 
>> True, but under that theory, there's no difference between a
>> convenience store & a supermarket.
>> 
>> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 10:23, Clifford Snow 
>> wrote:
>> >  OSM even has a nice icon for the business
>> > 
>> 
>> Just tried mapping one & iD calls it a Produce Stand, which I guess
>> could also be an alternative name, possibly as shop=produce_stand?
>> 
>> & wondering about also listing what they sell, took me to the produce
>> page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce :roll eyes:
>> 
>> Something that wasn't mentioned there though, is manure, & the only
>> reference that I can find to it is as a content= for bunker_silos?
>>? 
>> So, how should manure appear?
>> 
>> produce=manure + manure=horse, or
>> 
>> produce=horse_manure?
>> 
 
>It just surprises me that anyone would sell horse manure, around here
>horsey people are only too happy for you to take it away. They will
>often even throw in a free bag :)
>>Phil (trigpoint)

I suppose it is all a matter of supply and demand (number of horsey people v. 
number of serious rose-growers)  
Somewhere round here I have seen roadside adverts for "Horse Manure - Pick Your 
Own"!  Not sure whether they provide the bag, or not.
Peter


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2020-10-04 at 15:44 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 09:32, Paul Allen  wrote:
> > However, if we count that as a farm shop then the term essentially
> > becomes an alias of greengrocer.
> > A greengrocer with a single supplier, but still a greengrocer.
> > 
> 
> True, but under that theory, there's no difference between a
> convenience store & a supermarket.
> 
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 10:23, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
> >  OSM even has a nice icon for the business
> > 
> 
> Just tried mapping one & iD calls it a Produce Stand, which I guess
> could also be an alternative name, possibly as shop=produce_stand?
> 
> & wondering about also listing what they sell, took me to the produce
> page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce :roll eyes:
> 
> Something that wasn't mentioned there though, is manure, & the only
> reference that I can find to it is as a content= for bunker_silos?
> 
> So, how should manure appear?
> 
> produce=manure + manure=horse, or
> 
> produce=horse_manure?
> 
 
It just surprises me that anyone would sell horse manure, around here
horsey people are only too happy for you to take it away. They will
often even throw in a free bag :)

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2020-10-05 at 01:53 +0100, Paul Allen wrote:On Mon, 5 Oct 2020
> Nope.  ID thinks you guys speak mostly Merkin. Somebody will have
> copied the Merkin language file for en_AU and maybe changed a few
> things. 
> Changed
> BBQ to Barbie, stuff like that. :)
>
I do remember that some years back there was a request to translate the
iD presets into other types of English. I did some en-gb which means it
has probably ended up as a strange mix of South Walian and
Leicestershire :)

Phil (trigpoint)



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 at 00:48, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 22:38, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>>
>> I can't find that in ID.  Is that the raw tag it produces or just the
>> name of
>> the preset that gives shop=farm?  When I use ID that preset identifies
>> itself as farm shop but ID may have localized that name for American
>> usage.
>>
>
> Sorry, yes, tagged as shop=farm which brought up the preset Produce Stand,
> which then even renders! (As an apple)
>

Here in the UK that preset says "Farm Shop" (and has an apple).

>
> Worked in Oz as well as US, so guess it's International?
>

Nope.  ID thinks you guys speak mostly Merkin.  Somebody will have copied
the Merkin language file for en_AU and maybe changed a few things.  Changed
BBQ to Barbie, stuff like that. :)

>
> Might have to start a separate thread re produce to stir things up ‽:-)
>

So you want to establish a reputation as a manure stirrer?  Feel free. :)

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 22:38, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> I can't find that in ID.  Is that the raw tag it produces or just the name
> of
> the preset that gives shop=farm?  When I use ID that preset identifies
> itself as farm shop but ID may have localized that name for American
> usage.
>

Sorry, yes, tagged as shop=farm which brought up the preset Produce Stand,
which then even renders! (As an apple)

Worked in Oz as well as US, so guess it's International?

Good question.  One which will no doubt attract vehement opinions both
> ways. :)
>

I'm surprised they haven't appeared yet! :-)

Might have to start a separate thread re produce to stir things up ‽:-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Yes, but long term or regular presence
if road-side sale should be viable for
tagging.

3 paź 2020, 16:02 od pelder...@gmail.com:

> I think for tagging it should be more than the occasional road-side sale?
>
> Best, Peter Elderson
>
>
> Op za 3 okt. 2020 om 14:38 schreef Paul Allen <> pla16...@gmail.com> >:
>
>> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 13:22, Martin Koppenhoefer <>> 
>> dieterdre...@gmail.com>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> shop=* seems ok for me.
>>>
>>
>> And for me.  There are "formal" shops which open only 2 days a week.  Or
>> have limited hours.  Or surly staff.  You go there and buy stuff, it's a 
>> shop.
>>  
>>
>>> Maybe “game” would be ok as value.
>>>
>>
>> I think not.  Too easy to confuse "game" and "games."  Better to use
>> shop=butcher + produce=game.
>>
>> -- 
>> Paul
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 06:46, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 09:32, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>>
>> However, if we count that as a farm shop then the term essentially
>> becomes an alias of greengrocer.
>> A greengrocer with a single supplier, but still a greengrocer.
>>
>
> True, but under that theory, there's no difference between a convenience
> store & a supermarket.
>

Both convenience stores and supermarkets have a mix of big-name brands
and own-brand items.  The differences are size, hours and price.  I go
to the supermarket because it has a wider range and is cheaper but if
the supermarket is closed and I'm desperate I go to the convenience
store.

Returning to farm shops, a shop that is miles away from the farm and
is run by different people is, in my opinion, just a shop not a farm shop.

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 10:23, Clifford Snow  wrote:
>
>>  OSM even has a nice icon for the business
>>
>
> Just tried mapping one & iD calls it a Produce Stand, which I guess could
> also be an alternative name, possibly as shop=produce_stand?
>

I can't find that in ID.  Is that the raw tag it produces or just the name
of
the preset that gives shop=farm?  When I use ID that preset identifies
itself as farm shop but ID may have localized that name for American
usage.  Or you've found something I haven't.

So, how should manure appear?
>
> produce=manure + manure=horse, or
>
> produce=horse_manure?
>

Good question.  One which will no doubt attract vehement opinions
both ways. :)

>
> There was a semi-related reference as a possible error (Sewage is not
> produce but a waste material. Try content
> =sewage
> ),
> but I don't think manure counts as sewage?
>

It depends what you do with it.  Both directions.  Many decades ago sewage
works here used to sell pelletized processed human waste as fertilizer.  I
think
that is now illegal, but I'm not sure.  Farms around here have to prevent
animal excrement contaminating waterways so have slurry pits.  If you
sell the stuff to put it on rose bushes it's manure; if you have to dispose
of it then it's sewage.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 04:36, stevea  wrote:

> On Oct 3, 2020, at 4:10 PM, Paul Allen  wrote:
> > Or maybe something like this?   https://www.facebook.com/TempleBarFarm/
> > I added the farm nearly a year ago.  Held off on adding what they call
> the
> > "farm shop" because it had recently moved from Llwynhelyg Farm across
> > the road, was still settling down (I wasn't sure if they were going to
> keep
> > it going for long) and (most importantly) I couldn't figure out where
> exactly it
> > was.
>
> That facebook page isn't exactly the best venue from which to make a
> determination of what this place is,


The textual content isn't very clear, but one of the images on that page
shows exactly what it is.


> but I get the gist of it, and yes, I'd call it a shop=farm, too.
> Clifford, we, too (Coastal central/northern California, heck, all of
> California as I grew up in southern) call these "farm stands" in local
> vernacular.
>

Yeah, that "shop" is a stand.  And "farm stand" is (according to Wikipedia)
the
common name for them in the US.  But it calls itself a farm shop.  In my
pre-mapping days I've seen a few stands like that around here, but haven't
been
past them in my mapping days toconfirm they're still there.  But I've also
mapped
a few farm shops that are dedicated buildings, or rooms  in a building,
such as
https://goo.gl/maps/UPQZRLzCCgyQdy548

I can see arguments for having shop=farm_stand.  A stand may have
less stock in reserve, you may have to wait longer for somebody to
notice you to serve you (I think some stands around here have an
honesty box, but I could be wrong).  OTOH a shop is a shop, and you
can get small shops with little stock except what is on the shelves, and
there's a single member of staff so you may have to wait for that
person to come back inside from a smoke break.  On the gripping
hand, we make a distinction for kiosks, being the type of small shop
you can't walk inside.

I can see arguments for and against shop=farm_stand.  I can't
make up my mind whether or not I'd support it.  It seems to
be a stand-in for something like shop_size=large|small.

BTW, I think I see why the original poster suggested direct_marketing.
On https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farm_shop in the second
paragraph is "Direct sales to the consumer allow farmers to retain a larger
portion of the resulting profit [...]"

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 09:32, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> However, if we count that as a farm shop then the term essentially becomes
> an alias of greengrocer.
> A greengrocer with a single supplier, but still a greengrocer.
>

True, but under that theory, there's no difference between a convenience
store & a supermarket.

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 10:23, Clifford Snow  wrote:

>  OSM even has a nice icon for the business
>

Just tried mapping one & iD calls it a Produce Stand, which I guess could
also be an alternative name, possibly as shop=produce_stand?

& wondering about also listing what they sell, took me to the produce page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce :roll eyes:

Something that wasn't mentioned there though, is manure, & the only
reference that I can find to it is as a content= for bunker_silos?

So, how should manure appear?

produce=manure + manure=horse, or

produce=horse_manure?

There was a semi-related reference as a possible error (Sewage is not
produce but a waste material. Try content
=sewage
),
but I don't think manure counts as sewage?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[stevea]

On Oct 3, 2020, at 4:10 PM, Paul Allen  wrote:
> Or maybe something like this?   https://www.facebook.com/TempleBarFarm/
> I added the farm nearly a year ago.  Held off on adding what they call the
> "farm shop" because it had recently moved from Llwynhelyg Farm across
> the road, was still settling down (I wasn't sure if they were going to keep
> it going for long) and (most importantly) I couldn't figure out where exactly 
> it
> was.

That facebook page isn't exactly the best venue from which to make a 
determination of what this place is, but I get the gist of it, and yes, I'd 
call it a shop=farm, too.  Clifford, we, too (Coastal central/northern 
California, heck, all of California as I grew up in southern) call these "farm 
stands" in local vernacular.

Around here, the (quintessential, cutest, loved by locals...) place like this 
is https://www.yelp.com/biz/fambrini-r-and-company-santa-cruz.  I think they've 
moved since the "grandfather of the family" died last year 
(https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/santacruzsentinel/obituary.aspx?n=john-michael-fambrini=193988853=8818),
 but only down the road a bit.  I believe the family owns a fair bit of 
farmland in the area and their produce and farm products (even farm-produced 
strawberry soap!) are loved by many around here, Yelp is solid five-out-of-five 
stars in ratings.

I thought I had tagged this near here but I'm not seeing the node in OSM, I'm 
going to have to go and see what they've done in the last year and update the 
local tags.  There really are quite a few of these, especially around 
Watsonville and Castroville.  There are more (Cascade Ranch "U-Pick") up near 
Davenport, Swanton, Año Nuevo State Park.  If you are not in a hurry (and you 
are not if you are driving the Coast Road) and want to soak up some local 
color, try these, they are hard to beat!  Both locals and tourists "passing 
through" seem to love these places.  I've bought pies for holiday feasts and 
they are always a hit.  Kids love to pick out pumpkins in mid-to-late October.  
Even Wikidata says that shop=farm is sometimes called a "farm stand" by locals.

It's good to eat local, it's good to map local!

SteveA
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Clifford Snow]

On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 4:31 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

>
>> I would say not, by my understanding of the term.  But I can't guarantee
> my understanding matches general UK usage.  However, if we count that
> as a farm shop then the term essentially becomes an alias of greengrocer.
> A greengrocer with a single supplier, but still a greengrocer.  An
> intermediary between the customer and the farmer.
>
> It's stretching things if the shop is attached to a private house and the
>>> produce is grown in the garden,
>>>
>>
>> So what do we call it if we have a bumper crop of mangoes & decide to put
>> a table out the front & sell them for $1 each?
>>
>
> Unless you do it regularly and people come to rely on you for their supply
> of mangoes, it's not worth mapping, is it?
>

Some of my neighbors sell extra eggs or small bunches of flowers. I don't
map those. To hit and miss.

I live in a farming area. Apparently the soil around here ranks with the
best. A number of the farmers have "farm stands" as they are called
locally. Usually it is a separate building with a lock box to accept cash
or checks. They have small signs along the road as well as a couple of
websites that list the farms and what you can get.  I've tagged a few as
shop=farm. OSM even has a nice icon for the business. These are different
from greengrocers. We have one greengrocer in the area, but I'm not sure if
it has ever been mapped.

>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 00:09, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 08:31, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>>
>> More than good enough for me.  It's verifiable, so ought to be good
>> enough for
>> anybody else.  I'm interested in cheap test equipment, are the Avos old or
>> new? :)
>>
>
> New when they're in season, but I don't think they deliver, & it's going
> to be a bit of an issue you coming to pick them up! :-)
>

 For the right price on one of these it might be worth it.
https://www.avo.co.nz/products/multifunction-installation-testers

The fact that a shop is selling something produced on a farm doesn't make
>> it a farm shop (otherwise a greengrocer would be
>> a farm shop).  A farm shop is on the grounds where the produce is grown.
>>
>
> I suppose we could define it a bit closer in that a greengrocer sells
> produce from multiple sources / suppliers, whereas a farm=shop only sells
> produce produced on that farm?
>

That's how I understand it, going by the places around here that call
themselves
farm shops.  They're on farm grounds selling their own products.

>
> But Cliff mentioned
>
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 08:46, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfarm
>
> Which says: "A shop that sells regional, seasonal, freshly harvested
> goods. It could be also used for a roadside produce stand. *Similar
> inner-city farm shops also exist that specialize in selling products direct
> from (local/regional) farms.*"
>

Oh dear.  That complicates matters. I don't know if the term is used in that
way in the UK.  I don't recall seeing it used in that way around here.

>
> We do actually buy things from the place that has the Cow poo, Eggs &
> Tomatoes sign up,
>

All the ingredients needed for a perfect omelette.


> & have spoken to them a few times. All their produce comes from their
> son's farm ~40k west of here. So are they a shop=farm?
>

I would say not, by my understanding of the term.  But I can't guarantee
my understanding matches general UK usage.  However, if we count that
as a farm shop then the term essentially becomes an alias of greengrocer.
A greengrocer with a single supplier, but still a greengrocer.  An
intermediary between the customer and the farmer.

It's stretching things if the shop is attached to a private house and the
>> produce is grown in the garden,
>>
>
> So what do we call it if we have a bumper crop of mangoes & decide to put
> a table out the front & sell them for $1 each?
>

Unless you do it regularly and people come to rely on you for their supply
of mangoes, it's not worth mapping, is it?

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 23:41, stevea  wrote:

>
> especially on higher-speed primary or trunk highways in rural farming
> country as you'll get one, two or three signs:  "1/2 mile ahead, fresh
> apples, stone fruits and pies!" with cheerful graphics of cherries and
> baked goods.  shop=farm_stand, is what I'd like to tag, but I haven't done
> an OT query or taginfo.  Sometimes it's a pickup truck with fruit boxes or
> someone out of the trunk (boot) of their car or a "go through the door, can
> I get you another cup of coffee with that (honey)?" sort of place.
>

Or maybe something like this?   https://www.facebook.com/TempleBarFarm/
I added the farm nearly a year ago.  Held off on adding what they call the
"farm shop" because it had recently moved from Llwynhelyg Farm across
the road, was still settling down (I wasn't sure if they were going to keep
it going for long) and (most importantly) I couldn't figure out where
exactly it
was.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 08:03, Peter Elderson  wrote:

> Is it private sale?
>

Yes

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 08:31, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> More than good enough for me.  It's verifiable, so ought to be good enough
> for
> anybody else.  I'm interested in cheap test equipment, are the Avos old or
> new? :)
>

New when they're in season, but I don't think they deliver, & it's going to
be a bit of an issue you coming to pick them up! :-)

The fact that a shop is selling something produced on a farm doesn't make
> it a farm shop (otherwise a greengrocer would be
> a farm shop).  A farm shop is on the grounds where the produce is grown.
>

I suppose we could define it a bit closer in that a greengrocer sells
produce from multiple sources / suppliers, whereas a farm=shop only sells
produce produced on that farm?

But Cliff mentioned

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 08:46, Clifford Snow  wrote:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfarm

Which says: "A shop that sells regional, seasonal, freshly harvested goods.
It could be also used for a roadside produce stand. *Similar inner-city
farm shops also exist that specialize in selling products direct from
(local/regional) farms.*"

We do actually buy things from the place that has the Cow poo, Eggs &
Tomatoes sign up, & have spoken to them a few times. All their produce
comes from their son's farm ~40k west of here. So are they a shop=farm?


> It's stretching things if the shop is attached to a private house and the
> produce is grown in the garden,
>

So what do we call it if we have a bumper crop of mangoes & decide to put a
table out the front & sell them for $1 each?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Clifford Snow]

I use the tag shop=farm. It's been around for a while.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfarm


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[stevea]

I'm glad someone mentioned these, they are common and have been here for 
decades up and down California.  Like food trucks, they come and go with 
frequent irregularity.  Sometimes they are more-permanent, sometimes they are 
ephemeral.

> On Oct 3, 2020, at 2:35 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
and
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 00:39, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> More important is if there is a sign,
> 
> Hand-painted signs saying "Horse manure", "Avo's", "Firewood", "Eggs" & so on 
> good enough? 
> 
> We see lot's of them whenever we go for a drive in the country, & even the 
> occasional one in town!

especially on higher-speed primary or trunk highways in rural farming country 
as you'll get one, two or three signs:  "1/2 mile ahead, fresh apples, stone 
fruits and pies!" with cheerful graphics of cherries and baked goods.  
shop=farm_stand, is what I'd like to tag, but I haven't done an OT query or 
taginfo.  Sometimes it's a pickup truck with fruit boxes or someone out of the 
trunk (boot) of their car or a "go through the door, can I get you another cup 
of coffee with that (honey)?" sort of place.

If it's the latter (might be a full-blown "diner" restaurant, sometimes called 
a "road house") or it might be a simple "get hot water for your tea from the 
pump thermos, and yes we do serve pie, but only to go" kind of place. Those are 
different than the sort of transient (maybe there, maybe not) out-of-a-truck or 
farm wagon kind of thing.  There is also whether the farm is right next to the 
stand, which is sometimes true but more often not (and it's all-run-together, 
more permanent).  I agree with Paul that shop=farm fits these, that's how I 
tagthe ones that are local (iIrc, I haven't been comprehensive in my search).

We have those kinds of places around here with berries in the summer (cute 
signs say "U-Pick"), squashes in the autumn.  Along rural, farming highways 
between towns and cities.  They exist.

I would never say direct_marketing about these.  I might say shop=farm_stand if 
I were being "local vernacular," what we call them here, yet I think the 
more-permanent-ones-associated-with-the-farm-right-here are shop=farm.  And 
maybe what kind of fruit, being seasonal if they are and I can.  Drive along 
the coast between Half Moon Bay and Castroville, you see a dozen or more of 
these.  I think they (or something very much like) are somewhat frequent in 
much of rural, populated Earth.

SteveA
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 22:37, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 00:39, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>>
>> More important is if there is a sign,
>>
>
> Hand-painted signs saying "Horse manure", "Avo's", "Firewood", "Eggs" & so
> on good enough?
>

More than good enough for me.  It's verifiable, so ought to be good enough
for
anybody else.  I'm interested in cheap test equipment, are the Avos old or
new? :)

>
> shop=farm_gate would work for those stalls set up literally at the farm's
> front gate, but not sure about the ones in town such as
>

I'd leave it as shop=farm, otherwise we'll end up with
shop=farm_second_pigysty on the left.  It's a shop at a farm, the position
of the node indicates where it is.

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0794558,153.4353269,3a,44.3y,353.08h,84.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srvTirWlBxaboKXGY_z4YiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
> (Sorry, there's a bus in the way! but the sign says "Horse manure for
> sale")
>

Unless that's the frontage to the land where the produce it is selling is
grown,
it's just a small shop not a farm shop.  The fact that a shop is selling
something
produced on a farm doesn't make it a farm shop (otherwise a greengrocer
would be
a farm shop).  A farm shop is on the grounds where the produce is grown.
It's
stretching things if the shop is attached to a private house and the
produce is
grown in the garden, but I suppose it depends on the side of the garden.  We
don't have a shop=small_garden.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Peter Elderson]

Is it private sale?

Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op za 3 okt. 2020 om 23:37 schreef Graeme Fitzpatrick :

>
>
>
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 00:39, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>>
>> More important is if there is a sign,
>>
>
> Hand-painted signs saying "Horse manure", "Avo's", "Firewood", "Eggs" & so
> on good enough?
>
> We see lot's of them whenever we go for a drive in the country, & even the
> occasional one in town!
>
> shop=farm_gate would work for those stalls set up literally at the farm's
> front gate, but not sure about the ones in town such as
>
> https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0794558,153.4353269,3a,44.3y,353.08h,84.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srvTirWlBxaboKXGY_z4YiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
> (Sorry, there's a bus in the way! but the sign says "Horse manure for
> sale")
> or
>
> https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0830057,153.4348792,3a,19.6y,207.92h,79.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stYPeGpJj91C6jw_hQGFTZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 00:39, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> More important is if there is a sign,
>

Hand-painted signs saying "Horse manure", "Avo's", "Firewood", "Eggs" & so
on good enough?

We see lot's of them whenever we go for a drive in the country, & even the
occasional one in town!

shop=farm_gate would work for those stalls set up literally at the farm's
front gate, but not sure about the ones in town such as
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0794558,153.4353269,3a,44.3y,353.08h,84.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srvTirWlBxaboKXGY_z4YiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
(Sorry, there's a bus in the way! but the sign says "Horse manure for
sale")
or
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0830057,153.4348792,3a,19.6y,207.92h,79.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stYPeGpJj91C6jw_hQGFTZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 16:45, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> agreed that "game" would likely lead to problems.  Technically, I am not
> sure these places the OP is asking about are "butchers".
>

In British English, they are butchers.  And, in British English, a
butcher's shop
sells fresh cuts of meat.  It may also prepare the cuts from whole
carcasses,
it may even slaughter animals, but primarily a butcher's shop sells fresh
cuts
of meat.

In this context, game is fresh.  It's not tinned, frozen, smoked or
otherwise
preserved.  I have a vague recollection hygiene laws in the past couple of
years have greatly reduced (or maybe eliminated) the selling of game in
the UK, but prior to that a butcher's would be the place to buy it.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Sa., 3. Okt. 2020 um 14:38 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 13:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> shop=* seems ok for me.
>
>
> And for me.  There are "formal" shops which open only 2 days a week.  Or
> have limited hours.  Or surly staff.  You go there and buy stuff, it's a
> shop.
>
>
>> Maybe “game” would be ok as value.
>>
>
> I think not.  Too easy to confuse "game" and "games."  Better to use
> shop=butcher + produce=game.
>


agreed that "game" would likely lead to problems.  Technically, I am not
sure these places the OP is asking about are "butchers".

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 15:05, Peter Elderson  wrote:

> I think for tagging it should be more than the occasional road-side sale?
>

I think that would depend upon what you mean by "occasional."  We
have opening_hours to deal with that.

More important is if there is a sign, or newspaper advertisement, or
or a website, or something like that.  Social media is something I
wouldn't take as confirmation without checking as some of those
are used by people who are operating in a black economy and
wouldn't want to appear on a map in case tax or welfare
authorities spotted it (such people are willing to gamble on
not being spotted in social media, which seems foolish to
me).

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Peter Elderson]

I think for tagging it should be more than the occasional road-side sale?

Best, Peter Elderson


Op za 3 okt. 2020 om 14:38 schreef Paul Allen :

> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 13:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> shop=* seems ok for me.
>
>
> And for me.  There are "formal" shops which open only 2 days a week.  Or
> have limited hours.  Or surly staff.  You go there and buy stuff, it's a
> shop.
>
>
>> Maybe “game” would be ok as value.
>>
>
> I think not.  Too easy to confuse "game" and "games."  Better to use
> shop=butcher + produce=game.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 13:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> shop=* seems ok for me.


And for me.  There are "formal" shops which open only 2 days a week.  Or
have limited hours.  Or surly staff.  You go there and buy stuff, it's a
shop.


> Maybe “game” would be ok as value.
>

I think not.  Too easy to confuse "game" and "games."  Better to use
shop=butcher + produce=game.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3. Oct 2020, at 12:15, Alan Mackie  wrote:
> 
> This seems to me to be a relative of market stalls. Smaller concerns that are 
> 'staffed' but usually have very focussed or limited stock.


+1, with possibly varying merchandise according to the season or other factors.

shop=* seems ok for me. Maybe “game” would be ok as value.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Oct 2020, at 20:28, stevea  wrote:
> 
> The term "direct_marketing" is used in various dialects of English around the 
> world as meaning something wholly different than your proposed usage here.


even in German it is used for a kind of advertising (sending “individual 
letters”)
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direktmarketing


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Alan Mackie]

This seems to me to be a relative of market stalls. Smaller concerns that
are 'staffed' but usually have very focussed or limited stock. Part way
between a fullblown store and a vending machine, you would not expect to
see the facilities you might get in a "proper" shop or as many payment
means (though this depends on location).

To me these seem distinct enough to permit special tagging. Persistent
vendors within otherwise changing marketplaces might also be worth
highlighting for some users. Dedicated vendor tagging could then be shared
across all locations they (repeatedly) appear?

I think the closest we have for this sort of thing is shop=kiosk or
building=kiosk but this describes the physical setup more than the way
they're run.

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 10:40, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> 3 paź 2020, 02:44 od frede...@remote.org:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 10/2/20 19:56, Wieland Kestler wrote:
>
> I agree absolutely that somone who makes bread by itself and sells that
> in front of its house, we should tag it by shop=bakery. So the grade of
> „selfmadeness“ does not matter.
>
>
> We are not a business directory but a geo database. We map what exists,
> and not (or at least not primarily) what services might be offered. If
> there is a residential house and every now and then the owner puts out a
> table in front and sells bread, then I would say we shouldn't map that
> at all. (Map the house, yes, but not map the fact that a resident bakes
> bread occasionally.) In order to be mapped in OSM, it needs to have a
> physical manifestation - at the very least, a sign, or more desirably
> some structure that can be recognised as a shop even while not in use.
>
> And I would say that it is perfectly fine
> to map shops that are gone while not
> in use.
>
> For example food truck that arrives
> every night at the same location
> (OK, except holidays) seems perfectly
> mappable to me.
>
> Similarly, sellers of vegetables, herbs,
> pottery, baskets and whatever else in
> many cases are present only during day
> and disappear without trace in off hours.
>
> I have no problem with mapping them.
>
> See my street_vendor=yes tag idea to
> indicate this state.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

3 paź 2020, 02:44 od frede...@remote.org:

> Hi,
>
> On 10/2/20 19:56, Wieland Kestler wrote:
>
>> I agree absolutely that somone who makes bread by itself and sells that
>> in front of its house, we should tag it by shop=bakery. So the grade of
>> „selfmadeness“ does not matter.
>>
>
> We are not a business directory but a geo database. We map what exists,
> and not (or at least not primarily) what services might be offered. If
> there is a residential house and every now and then the owner puts out a
> table in front and sells bread, then I would say we shouldn't map that
> at all. (Map the house, yes, but not map the fact that a resident bakes
> bread occasionally.) In order to be mapped in OSM, it needs to have a
> physical manifestation - at the very least, a sign, or more desirably
> some structure that can be recognised as a shop even while not in use.
>
And I would say that it is perfectly fine
to map shops that are gone while not
in use.

For example food truck that arrives
every night at the same location
(OK, except holidays) seems perfectly
mappable to me.

Similarly, sellers of vegetables, herbs,
pottery, baskets and whatever else in
many cases are present only during day
and disappear without trace in off hours.

I have no problem with mapping them.
See my street_vendor=yes tag idea to 
indicate this state.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/2/20 19:56, Wieland Kestler wrote:
> I agree absolutely that somone who makes bread by itself and sells that
> in front of its house, we should tag it by shop=bakery. So the grade of
> „selfmadeness“ does not matter.

We are not a business directory but a geo database. We map what exists,
and not (or at least not primarily) what services might be offered. If
there is a residential house and every now and then the owner puts out a
table in front and sells bread, then I would say we shouldn't map that
at all. (Map the house, yes, but not map the fact that a resident bakes
bread occasionally.) In order to be mapped in OSM, it needs to have a
physical manifestation - at the very least, a sign, or more desirably
some structure that can be recognised as a shop even while not in use.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Oct 2, 2020, 19:56 by redouble...@outlook.de:

>
> The aim of this proposal is to establish a new tag for a type of „shops“ that 
> are way less professional as the „normal“ shops.
>
>
This would result in all "less professional" shops - from one selling herbs to 
one selling electronics
to use one shop value.

I also think that usual shop=* tagging is perfectly fine to be used on "less 
professional" shops, no
matter what kind of "less professional" we take.

>
> I agree absolutely that somone who makes bread by itself and sells that in 
> front of its house, we should tag it by shop=bakery. So the grade of 
> „selfmadeness“ does not matter.
>
>
>  
>
>
> Thanks also for the ideas around the tag shop=farm. But I think, what I mean 
> is more specific. If I would use shop=farm I would expect a proper store with 
> counter and staff. I think the idea of improving it by using 
> openeing_hours="by appointment" is a good objection. Problem here: How can 
> the goods be further specified? How can it be stated that horse manure can 
> (also) be bought in this shop=farm? Or game (regardless of whether it was 
> created through breeding or was shot by the hunter)? I think these products 
> are not that typical for a shop = farm. Or the other way around: By using 
> shop=farm you cannot find any places (e.g. via overpass) where horse manure 
> can be bought.
>
>
There were some attempts to tag what is sold in a shop, product by product.

See https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org//search?q=sells or even weirder tag soup 
like
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/dried_fruits that I used twice.

Nothing really popular, but sells:horse_manure=yes can be used

>
> I hope at this Point it is clear what is meant by the proposal. (Maybe the 
> name „direct_marketing“ is confusing – feel free to make suggestions)
>
>
Do not attempt to put different shop types in one shop tag

"honey can be obtained directly from the beekeeper"

shop=honey seems to fit
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Ashop%3Dhoney

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dbeekeeper
even recommends 
"The beekeeper might sell their products from their workplace, use shop=honey 
in this case."


"game from the forester"

sounds like shop=butcher (not sure,  never encountered something like that)
craft=hunter (???)

>  
>
> Another idea I like is to use craft=* in combination with direct_marketing=*. 
> Inquiry here: which values you want to use? Something like „game“ and 
> „horse_dung“ (separated by semikolon) or just „yes“? And of course the 
> challenge here is to find a „craft“-value for all issues.
>
>
"direct marketing" in English means something specific - see.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_marketing

direct_sale_from_producer=yes (????)

>  
>
> Thanks
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> Von: > Niels Elgaard Larsen <mailto:elga...@agol.dk>
>  > Gesendet: > Freitag, 2. Oktober 2020 13:44
>  > An: > tagging@openstreetmap.org
>  > Betreff: > Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> Wieland Kestler:
>  > Hi everyone!
>  > 
>  >  
>  > 
>  > Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal 
> for tagging
>  > points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from the forester.
>  
>  What does "directly" mean?
>  
>  That forester probably did not shoot the animal himself. He most likely is 
> not
>  allowed to butcher it. And it might not actually be him selling the meat 
> when you
>  pick it up.
>  
>  shop=farm might be a stretch for game, although I do know a place selling 
> deer meat
>  that have all the deers inside a big fence.
>  
>  shop=farm is already used for eggs and honey.
>  I would also assume that horse dung being sold usually does not come from 
> wild horses.
>  
>  As for shop=farm not being permanently available, we have the 
> "opening_hours" and
>  "seasonal" tags. We can also use shop=farm,openeing_hours="by appointment" 
> if there
>  is not a shop infrastructure.
>  
>  >  
>  > 
>  > For more details see the proposal page:
>  > >  
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
>  > 
>  > For comments use the discussion page:
>  > >  
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
>  > 
>  >  
>  > 
>  > Tanks!
>  > 
>  >  
>  > 
>  > Wieland
>  > 
>  >  
>  > 
>  >  
>  > 
>  > 
>  > ___
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>  > 
>  
>  
>  -- 
>  Niels Elgaard Larsen
>  
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>
>
>
>  
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 02/10/2020 14.27, stevea wrote:

Wieland, I don't have good answers to offer to you for your other
questions.  However, I would say (as others have) that
"direct_marketing" absolutely IS "confusing," I go so far as to say
"incorrect" in these circumstances.  The term "direct_marketing" is
used in various dialects of English around the world as meaning
something wholly different than your proposed usage here.


To that end, perhaps something along the lines of "ad_hoc" would be less 
confusing...


--
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[stevea]

Wieland, I don't have good answers to offer to you for your other questions.  
However, I would say (as others have) that "direct_marketing" absolutely IS 
"confusing," I go so far as to say "incorrect" in these circumstances.  The 
term "direct_marketing" is used in various dialects of English around the world 
as meaning something wholly different than your proposed usage here.  So, I 
(and others) ask you to please deprecate any consideration of using the tag 
"direct_marketing" in your proposal.

Good luck crafting the correct set of tags you strive to achieve to describe 
the set of semantics you have.  This is often not easy work, as you have 
discovered.  However, with some effort (collaboration with others helps, this 
discussion list is a good start) it can be done.  You might need a combination 
of existing tags, perhaps a combination of new tags or new values on existing 
tags, but such "syntax crafting" (tag development with thoughtful key:value 
pairs and how to use them) is often long and somewhat difficult work, 
especially to gain first understanding and then consensus among our community.  
Take into account "what already is" in OSM, and if you seem to need to "tag 
your way around this" you might be on the wrong track.  But if you find a 
certain harmony with existing tags, keep working in that direction as it is 
often a more correct track, especially for people to understand.  And often, 
with understanding comes acceptance and then wider use.

SteveA

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 18:57, Wieland Kestler  wrote:

>
>
> The aim of this proposal is to establish a new tag for a type of „shops“
> that are way less professional as the „normal“ shops.
>

A shop is a shop.  You go there to buy something.  The opening hours may
be erratic; it may frequently run out of stock; the staff may be surly - it
doesn't matter, it's still a shop.


> Thanks also for the ideas around the tag shop=farm. But I think, what I
> mean is more specific. If I would use shop=farm I would expect a proper
> store with counter and staff. I think the idea of improving it by using
> openeing_hours="by appointment" is a good objection. Problem here: How can
> the goods be further specified? How can it be stated that horse manure can
> (also) be bought in this shop=farm? Or game (regardless of whether it was
> created through breeding or was shot by the hunter)? I think these products
> are not that typical for a shop = farm. Or the other way around: By using
> shop=farm you cannot find any places (e.g. via overpass) where horse manure
> can be bought.
>

product=horse_manure+produce=honey;eggs;game

-- 
Paul


>
> I hope at this Point it is clear what is meant by the proposal. (Maybe the
> name „direct_marketing“ is confusing – feel free to make suggestions)
>
>
>
> Another idea I like is to use craft=* in combination with
> direct_marketing=*. Inquiry here: which values you want to use? Something
> like „game“ and „horse_dung“ (separated by semikolon) or just „yes“? And of
> course the challenge here is to find a „craft“-value for all issues.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> *Von: *Niels Elgaard Larsen 
> *Gesendet: *Freitag, 2. Oktober 2020 13:44
> *An: *tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Betreff: *Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)
>
>
>
> Wieland Kestler:
> > Hi everyone!
> >
> >
> >
> > Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal
> for tagging
> > points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from the forester.
>
> What does "directly" mean?
>
> That forester probably did not shoot the animal himself. He most likely is
> not
> allowed to butcher it. And it might not actually be him selling the meat
> when you
> pick it up.
>
> shop=farm might be a stretch for game, although I do know a place selling
> deer meat
> that have all the deers inside a big fence.
>
> shop=farm is already used for eggs and honey.
> I would also assume that horse dung being sold usually does not come from
> wild horses.
>
> As for shop=farm not being permanently available, we have the
> "opening_hours" and
> "seasonal" tags. We can also use shop=farm,openeing_hours="by appointment"
> if there
> is not a shop infrastructure.
>
> >
> >
> > For more details see the proposal page:
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
> >
> > For comments use the discussion page:
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
> >
> >
> >
> > Tanks!
> >
> >
> >
> > Wieland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
>
>
> --
> Niels Elgaard Larsen
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Wieland Kestler]

Hi!

thanks for the comments so far. I think I have to clarify something at this 
point, as I have the feeling that the discussion is going in the wrong 
direction or that the proposal is being misunderstood (I may not have been able 
to express it precisely enough, soory if so).

The aim of this proposal is to establish a new tag for a type of „shops“ that 
are way less professional as the „normal“ shops.
I agree absolutely that somone who makes bread by itself and sells that in 
front of its house, we should tag it by shop=bakery. So the grade of 
„selfmadeness“ does not matter.

Thanks also for the ideas around the tag shop=farm. But I think, what I mean is 
more specific. If I would use shop=farm I would expect a proper store with 
counter and staff. I think the idea of improving it by using openeing_hours="by 
appointment" is a good objection. Problem here: How can the goods be further 
specified? How can it be stated that horse manure can (also) be bought in this 
shop=farm? Or game (regardless of whether it was created through breeding or 
was shot by the hunter)? I think these products are not that typical for a shop 
= farm. Or the other way around: By using shop=farm you cannot find any places 
(e.g. via overpass) where horse manure can be bought.

I hope at this Point it is clear what is meant by the proposal. (Maybe the name 
„direct_marketing“ is confusing – feel free to make suggestions)

Another idea I like is to use craft=* in combination with direct_marketing=*. 
Inquiry here: which values you want to use? Something like „game“ and 
„horse_dung“ (separated by semikolon) or just „yes“? And of course the 
challenge here is to find a „craft“-value for all issues.

Thanks

Von: Niels Elgaard Larsen<mailto:elga...@agol.dk>
Gesendet: Freitag, 2. Oktober 2020 13:44
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

Wieland Kestler:
> Hi everyone!
>
>
>
> Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal for 
> tagging
> points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from the forester.

What does "directly" mean?

That forester probably did not shoot the animal himself. He most likely is not
allowed to butcher it. And it might not actually be him selling the meat when 
you
pick it up.

shop=farm might be a stretch for game, although I do know a place selling deer 
meat
that have all the deers inside a big fence.

shop=farm is already used for eggs and honey.
I would also assume that horse dung being sold usually does not come from wild 
horses.

As for shop=farm not being permanently available, we have the "opening_hours" 
and
"seasonal" tags. We can also use shop=farm,openeing_hours="by appointment" if 
there
is not a shop infrastructure.

>
>
> For more details see the proposal page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
>
> For comments use the discussion page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
>
>
>
> Tanks!
>
>
>
> Wieland
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


--
Niels Elgaard Larsen

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Wieland Kestler:
> Hi everyone!
> 
>  
> 
> Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal for 
> tagging
> points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from the forester.

What does "directly" mean?

That forester probably did not shoot the animal himself. He most likely is not
allowed to butcher it. And it might not actually be him selling the meat when 
you
pick it up.

shop=farm might be a stretch for game, although I do know a place selling deer 
meat
that have all the deers inside a big fence.

shop=farm is already used for eggs and honey.
I would also assume that horse dung being sold usually does not come from wild 
horses.

As for shop=farm not being permanently available, we have the "opening_hours" 
and
"seasonal" tags. We can also use shop=farm,openeing_hours="by appointment" if 
there
is not a shop infrastructure.

>  
> 
> For more details see the proposal page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
> 
> For comments use the discussion page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
> 
>  
> 
> Tanks!
> 
>  
> 
> Wieland
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 


-- 
Niels Elgaard Larsen

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Andy Townsend]

On 02/10/2020 08:58, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

On 10/1/20 14:46, Wieland Kestler wrote:

Hi everyone!

  


Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal
for tagging points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from
the forester.

  


For more details see the proposal page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing



At least in the US, "direct marketing" usually refers to things like
infomercials or mail advertising campaigns. Such a shop would typically
not be mapped as such.


It also means that in the UK.

I'd suggest shop=farm, as another commenter has already suggested.

Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 10/1/20 14:46, Wieland Kestler wrote:
> Hi everyone!
> 
>  
> 
> Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal
> for tagging points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from
> the forester.
> 
>  
> 
> For more details see the proposal page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
> 
> For comments use the discussion page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing

At least in the US, "direct marketing" usually refers to things like
infomercials or mail advertising campaigns. Such a shop would typically
not be mapped as such.

shop=direct_marketing places too much emphasis on the method of sale
versus what is sold (which is the usual purpose of a shop=* tag), and
also is misleading in this case.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Oct 2020, at 08:53, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> "direct marketing" using shop key
> means that there is no way to tag
> shop type in an usual way (in a shop key)


+1, it would better be a property than a shop type. Still it leaves the 
question open how much proper work the facility has to invest in order to make 
it “their own” product. Someone selling bread would be direct marketing if they 
sold bread for which they made the dough? Do they also have to grow the cereal, 
harvest it and grind it? Do they have to produce their own yeast or may they 
buy it? Provided there is salt in the dough, will it have to be extracted by 
themselves or may they buy it?
And on the other end, someone finishing the bread baking from semi baked 
industrial bread out of a factory, can they be called direct marketers?

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

"direct marketing" using shop keymeans that there is no way to tag
shop type in an usual way (in a shop key)

1 paź 2020, 21:46 od redouble...@outlook.de:

>
> Hi everyone!
>
>
>  
>
>
> Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal for 
> tagging points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from the 
> forester.
>
>
>  
>
>
> For more details see the proposal page: >  
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
>
>
> For comments use the discussion page: >  
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
>
>
>  
>
>
> Tanks!
>
>
>  
>
>
> Wieland
>
>
>  
>
>
>  
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Wieland,

The proposed definition of this tag shop=direct_marketing is "a place where
products from own, private production can be purchased".

This is too broad. Please consider that in most countries there are no
regulations that prevent anyone from opening a small shop in front of their
home (Western Europe and North America are exceptions), and a shop can be a
stall or booth next to the street, or the front room of a residence.

If someone knits clothing by hand and sells it from a small shop in the
front room of their house, this should be a shop=clothes, not a
shop=direct_marketing. If they bake bread to sell it the public, it should
be a shop=bakery. If someone keeps bees and sells the honey, that is a
shop=honey if it is publicly available. If not, they might be a
craft=beekeeper.

If on the other hand they only sell the products via the internet or mail
order and there is no shop, there might not be anything to map, or perhaps
the key craft=* would be more appropriate in some cases.

For the state example of e.g. game meat, if the animal has been butchered
(the game meat has been dressed and prepared in smaller portions), then
shop=butcher is appropriate, or if there is no public shop then perhaps a
new value craft=butcher would work. If the hunter is selling whole animal
carcassas without any preparation, perhaps a different value is better.

I'm having trouble imagining a situation where "direct_marketing" is the
best description.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 12:48 PM Wieland Kestler 
wrote:
>
> Hi everyone!
>
>
>
> Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal
for tagging points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from the
forester.
>
>
>
> For more details see the proposal page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
>
> For comments use the discussion page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
>
>
>
> Tanks!
>
>
>
> Wieland
>
>
>
>
>
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Wieland Kestler]

Hi everyone!

Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal for 
tagging points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from the forester.

For more details see the proposal page: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
For comments use the discussion page: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing

Tanks!

Wieland


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