Re: [Tagging] Ford = depreciated?

[Dave F.]

On 25/08/2012 14:23, SomeoneElse wrote:
I don't see any particular reason to actively change a "highway=ford" 
node to "ford=yes" - it just looks like meaningless tagfiddling.


Because sometimes it isn't just a single node point crossing but a 
length road. With highway=ford there was no way to tag what the type of 
road it is. (it was tracks in my neck of the woods)


Cheers
Dave F.
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Re: [Tagging] Ford = depreciated?

[Philip Barnes]

On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 21:49 +0900, Andrew Errington wrote:
> I remember this happening, and it seemed like a Good Thing at the time, 
> although I had only mapped one ford.
> 
> It was suggested that highway=ford should be deprecated and replaced with 
> ford=yes.
> 
> So "ford" itself is not lost, it has moved from a value to become a key.
> 
> I like this approach.  Do you think it's such a bad thing?
No, treating a ford in the same was as a bridge does seem like a good
thing providing it is not done before renderers and routers have caught
up.

Tagging ford=yes was not mentioned in the wiki page however.

I do feel that small groups holding private discussions on the wiki, and
then making decisions and changes based on the views of such a small
group, like some sort of QANGO is not good. Such discussions should be
public on the mailing lists.

Phil


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Re: [Tagging] Ford = depreciated?

[SomeoneElse]

Philip Barnes wrote:

Have just spotted this changeset whilst looking through changes near me?

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/12837424

Why has Ford been depreciated? It is the correct definition, and the
word used on road signs.


I can see the point of changing "highway=ford" on ways to "highway=blah, 
ford=yes", but that requires someone to get out from behind their 
computer and find out what "blah" should be.


I don't see any particular reason to actively change a "highway=ford" 
node to "ford=yes" - it just looks like meaningless tagfiddling.


There are some knock-on issues of removing data like this - maps that 
people use will look different.  As an example, the osm.org "standard" 
map renders "highway=ford" on nodes but not "ford=yes". There's a trac 
ticket  logged for it, but 
the code to incorporate "ford" into the rendering DB doesn't write itself.


Perhaps people could be persuaded from removing "deprecated" tags until 
they've provided patches for commonly used renderers?


I suspect that what happened in this case is that the JOSM validator 
flagged it, (as I understand it it reads this wiki page 
), so I suspect 
that the problem is a combination of:


1) The person* who wrote the "key:ford 
" page saying "should be 
deprecated" without thinking it through.
2) The key to be added to "Deprecated Features 
" without 
thought as to whether it applies to nodes or ways.

3) Finally, the mapper blindly following JOSM's validator without thinking.

Cheers,
Andy

* Said person also screwed up the mapping of a long ford near me dispite 
this message 
.
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Re: [Tagging] Ford = depreciated?

[fly]

On 25/08/12 14:49, Andrew Errington wrote:
> I remember this happening, and it seemed like a Good Thing at the time, 
> although I had only mapped one ford.
> 
> It was suggested that highway=ford should be deprecated and replaced with 
> ford=yes.
> 
> So "ford" itself is not lost, it has moved from a value to become a key.
> 
> I like this approach.  Do you think it's such a bad thing?

+1
same as tunnel and bridge


> 
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 21:37:20 Philip Barnes wrote:
>> Have just spotted this changeset whilst looking through changes near me?
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/12837424

This is vandalism as only the tag of the node was deleted but the highway should
have been split and ford=yes added. Please, contact the editor to avoid similar
changes.


>> Everyone should know what a ford is, and obviously the depth or if there
>> is water will depend on the recent weather.

Seems this user did not really know.

>> The decision was made by what appears to have been made by a vote by 5
>> people.
>>
>> Why has it not been discussed in this mailing list where it will be seen
>> by someone who is not searching the wiki for Fords today.

Do not know and yes, it should have been at least mentioned here. I got to know
about it through JOSM validator.

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Re: [Tagging] Ford = depreciated?

[John Sturdy]

> Why has Ford been depreciated? It is the correct definition, and the
> word used on road signs.

> A google search revealed this wiki page
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:ford

> Why has it not been discussed in this mailing list where it will be seen
> by someone who is not searching the wiki for Fords today.

I missed the discussion, because it wasn't on the mailing list (I
think it would have been a good idea to raise it on the list, though).

Having had a look at the page, I think it's reasonable.  The
deprecation is on "highway=ford", in favour of adding "ford=yes" to a
something which already has "highway=", so the highway keeps
its existing type.

As covered in the page, it works just like adding "bridge=yes" or
"tunnel=yes" to a stretch of road.

__John

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Re: [Tagging] Ford = depreciated?

[Andrew Errington]

I remember this happening, and it seemed like a Good Thing at the time, 
although I had only mapped one ford.

It was suggested that highway=ford should be deprecated and replaced with 
ford=yes.

So "ford" itself is not lost, it has moved from a value to become a key.

I like this approach.  Do you think it's such a bad thing?

Best wishes,

Andrew

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 21:37:20 Philip Barnes wrote:
> Have just spotted this changeset whilst looking through changes near me?
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/12837424
>
> Why has Ford been depreciated? It is the correct definition, and the
> word used on road signs.
>
> A google search revealed this wiki page
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:ford
>
> This discussion that did go on seems to me disjointed, and is confused
> with stepping stones. Surely if these exist they are a separate node,
> they are usually part of a footway, alongside the road which fords the
> stream, there is also often a footbridge alongside the ford.
>
> I cannot think of a better tag. Tagging with water=yes just seems like
> we dumbing down.
>
> Everyone should know what a ford is, and obviously the depth or if there
> is water will depend on the recent weather.
>
> The decision was made by what appears to have been made by a vote by 5
> people.
>
> Why has it not been discussed in this mailing list where it will be seen
> by someone who is not searching the wiki for Fords today.
>
> Phil
>
>
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[Tagging] Ford = depreciated?

[Philip Barnes]

Have just spotted this changeset whilst looking through changes near me?

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/12837424

Why has Ford been depreciated? It is the correct definition, and the
word used on road signs. 

A google search revealed this wiki page
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:ford

This discussion that did go on seems to me disjointed, and is confused
with stepping stones. Surely if these exist they are a separate node,
they are usually part of a footway, alongside the road which fords the
stream, there is also often a footbridge alongside the ford. 

I cannot think of a better tag. Tagging with water=yes just seems like
we dumbing down.

Everyone should know what a ford is, and obviously the depth or if there
is water will depend on the recent weather.

The decision was made by what appears to have been made by a vote by 5
people.

Why has it not been discussed in this mailing list where it will be seen
by someone who is not searching the wiki for Fords today.

Phil


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