Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 23.03.2015 21:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2015-03-23 15:27 GMT+01:00 Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de mailto:o...@stephans-server.de: The wiki describes operator=independent as he value has been used when exact details of the operator are not known, other than that they are a small independent firm. Sounds like that's exactly what we are looking for. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/__wiki/Tag:operator%__3Dindependent http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:operator%3Dindependent no, I think he wants a tag that says: this petrol station is not associated with one of the big mineral oil companies. The proposed tag operator=independent is a hack by putting something different than an operator into the operator value, IMHO nothing we should encourage, and this information will be lost as soon as someone adds a proper operator to the POI. That given wiki page is quite new. And operator=independent not that much in use. Maybe get rid of that wiki page then and replace the tagging with something more appropriate? Stephan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
If the business sells small quantities of fuel (automotive or otherwise), but not car parts, then in what sense does shop=car_parts apply? Fuel is not part of the car. On March 23, 2015 8:55:57 AM CDT, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: On 23.03.2015 11:02, Dave Swarthout wrote: An amenity is something the /general public/ might like or use or want to visit. These little shops are definitely not that. They sell small quantities of fuel, usually 2 or 3 liters, to local motorcycle drivers. That's why the general public might like to visit these shops - or any other fuel station. Ok, if it's only 2 or 3 liters, it's not really a fuel station, but rather a shop=car_parts. Anyway, we don't need to invent a new tag. And the Wiki's definition of shop is: A place selling retail products or services. Too brief perhaps but it does allow for a wide range of additions. Cafes, restaurants and theaters sell retail products or services as well. You can use either of the amenity=* or shop=* keys, you just need to stick to it. Meanwhile, until the renderers get smart, people are going to travel to these shops hoping to fill up their SUVs. This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. I do not see why there is so much resistance to adding another value to the shop keys in existence. There are some pretty strange special values out there: shop=bag shop=e-cigarette shop=fashion (??) One evil cannot justify another evil. I never set the shop=fashion tag, because it's just a useless synonym for shop=clothes. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
If it is a place to buy 50l of petrol with a credit card, and 200 people can use it a day, it's a Normal gas station. If you hand the card to a clerk or pay at the pump (almost every single gas station in America, and more and more in Japan) - it's still a gas station. I don't think people would expect a shop that looks like a gas station, works like a gas station, and has no shop to shop in to be tagged as a shop. I totally get its an automated system (for payment) but the facility itself is a normal gas station. The other state with mandatory gas station pumping is New Jersey. It's weird going to certain gas stations in Japan where the pumps are 5 meters in the air, and an attendant lowers the hose down with a string to pump gas in your car. Javbw On Mar 24, 2015, at 2:55 PM, Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com wrote: How does the tagging differ from an unstaffed filling station where you enter your credit card and fill up the tank of your car yourself 24/7 like I seem them all over the place in the Netherlands? In the situation you describe I really prefer shop=*. Regards, Jan At these places you could fill up your SUV tank and hence they are tagged appropriately. I add: amenity=fuel automated=yes description:en=A vending machine accepting cash in notes and/or coin that dispenses automotive fuel 24/7. Most are poorly marked and offer no other services. fuel:diesel=yes/no fuel:gasohol_91=yes/no fuel:gasohol_95=yes/no fuel:gasoline_91=yes/no fuel:gasoline_95=yes/no name=* opening_hours=24/7 payment:cash=yes payment:credit_cards=no source=GPS, geolocated photo vending=fuel vending_machine=yes ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
2015-03-24 11:28 GMT+01:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: There's no need to remove it since it's clearly understood by most people to mean tools, custom items, maybe even tickets to an auto show. IMHO the only valid word there is car parts, because if they don't have car parts but they sell tickets to an auto show, you wouldn't tag that shop=car_parts. So, while these observations are interesting, let's put them aside and discuss the issue of shop=car_parts some other day. OK ;-) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
There's no need to remove it since it's clearly understood by most people to mean tools, custom items, maybe even tickets to an auto show. Motor oil is sold at a car_parts shop because it is non-volatile and therefore poses no fire or explosion risk. This is emphatically not the case with gasoline and its relatives. Plus, a significant profit can accrue from its sale. So, while these observations are interesting, let's put them aside and discuss the issue of shop=car_parts some other day. On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-23 18:48 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: Petrol is similar to motor oil, both are fluids made from mineral oil. Diesel is identical with light fuel oil. So this is clearly the same group of products, especially when sold in equally small quantities. What else is the etc. supposed to mean? I think that the etc. is indeed not helpful and I'd remove it from this list. Also motor oil is not a car part in my understanding, but it is typically found in shops that sell car parts, so this is why it got its way onto this list. But petrol is not on this list, is not a car part, and so these places should not be tagged like that IMHO. Mineral oil (I think you meant to say crude oil) is the basis for lots of things, including plastic (e.g. also textiles), tar, lighter fuel, even coke. Now shops for car parts do indeed sell textiles, so the circle closes here. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
2015-03-23 18:48 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: Petrol is similar to motor oil, both are fluids made from mineral oil. Diesel is identical with light fuel oil. So this is clearly the same group of products, especially when sold in equally small quantities. What else is the etc. supposed to mean? I think that the etc. is indeed not helpful and I'd remove it from this list. Also motor oil is not a car part in my understanding, but it is typically found in shops that sell car parts, so this is why it got its way onto this list. But petrol is not on this list, is not a car part, and so these places should not be tagged like that IMHO. Mineral oil (I think you meant to say crude oil) is the basis for lots of things, including plastic (e.g. also textiles), tar, lighter fuel, even coke. Now shops for car parts do indeed sell textiles, so the circle closes here. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
It's interesting that you brought that up because most fuel stations in the United States actually use vending machines as well. AFAIK, the only state in the United States that still requires an attendant to pump your gas is Oregon. In a way, even though the fuel shops I'm dealing with in Thailand are much smaller, having only 1 or 2 pumps and no parking pad or other amenities, the majority of the large name-brand stations in the U.S. could really use the same tags. They're all automated, accept credit cards, open 24/7, etc. I would of course, add brand, operator, and other descriptive tags but essentially they are the same thing. Dave On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com wrote: How does the tagging differ from an unstaffed filling station where you enter your credit card and fill up the tank of your car yourself 24/7 like I seem them all over the place in the Netherlands? In the situation you describe I really prefer shop=*. Regards, Jan At these places you could fill up your SUV tank and hence they are tagged appropriately. I add: amenity=fuel automated=yes description:en=A vending machine accepting cash in notes and/or coin that dispenses automotive fuel 24/7. Most are poorly marked and offer no other services. fuel:diesel=yes/no fuel:gasohol_91=yes/no fuel:gasohol_95=yes/no fuel:gasoline_91=yes/no fuel:gasoline_95=yes/no name=* opening_hours=24/7 payment:cash=yes payment:credit_cards=no source=GPS, geolocated photo vending=fuel vending_machine=yes -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
+5 I fully agree with Dave! We need a clear differentiation between regular filling stations with large underground containers and the shops that sell a few liters of diesel of which you may hope that it isn't polluted and doesn't contain water. When I travel in countries like Malawi or Ethiopia I try to plan fuelling in such a way that I can use normal fillings stations. I don't care so much about the brand or the roof, but large quantities and protection against manipulation are important. The shops I only use in emergencies. So please use amenity=fuel for regular filling stations and extend the existing shop=fuel with attributes to specify what fuekl is sold. On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 11:05 AM Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: I agree with amenity=fuel + a subtag like these (if needed). This is not the way to go. An amenity is something the *general public* might like or use or want to visit. These little shops are definitely not that. They sell small quantities of fuel, usually 2 or 3 liters, to local motorcycle drivers. And the Wiki's definition of shop is: A place selling retail products or services. Too brief perhaps but it does allow for a wide range of additions. Meanwhile, until the renderers get smart, people are going to travel to these shops hoping to fill up their SUVs. This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. I do not see why there is so much resistance to adding another value to the shop keys in existence. There are some pretty strange special values out there: shop=bag shop=e-cigarette shop=fashion (??) What the hell does a fashion shop sell? Fashion of course. I wonder when the renderers will decide to deal with bag shops? Dave ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 22.03.2015 20:29, fly wrote: some independent petrol stations are organized in associations and use these as their brand, see e.g. here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesverband_freier_Tankstellen So it is a brand. Maybe just small, but a brand of that association of fuel stations. not being part of a mineral oil corporation doesn't necessarily mean you don't use a brand name. So, we need an additional tag for independent shops/petrol stations as brand=* and operator=* might be already used. Do we need company_chain=* or does independent=yes work ? The wiki describes operator=independent as he value has been used when exact details of the operator are not known, other than that they are a small independent firm. Sounds like that's exactly what we are looking for. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:operator%3Dindependent Stephan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 23.03.2015 15:11, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2015-03-23 14:55 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at mailto:b...@volki.at: Ok, if it's only 2 or 3 liters, it's not really a fuel station, but rather a shop=car_parts. 2 liters of fuel are as much car_parts as a bakery is bicycle_parts. The definition says: A place selling auto parts, auto accessories, motor oil, car chemicals, etc. That fits perfectly. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
Sorry, fuel is not a car_part. And these small fuel shops are not an amenity. Stalemate. @Fly - these places are operated by private individuals out of the front of their homes primarily. It's typically a small shed with a large window thru which the fuel is either pumped or handed over in repurposed whiskey bottles. It barely qualifies as a shop but I want a way to make them visible and useful for those who need them. The local Thai farmers ain't gonna use OSM to find them. And I'm not gonna stop and interview them to get their names. On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:12 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-23 14:55 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: Ok, if it's only 2 or 3 liters, it's not really a fuel station, but rather a shop=car_parts. I'd prefer shop=pharmacy, dispensing=no ;-) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
2015-03-23 15:27 GMT+01:00 Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de: The wiki describes operator=independent as he value has been used when exact details of the operator are not known, other than that they are a small independent firm. Sounds like that's exactly what we are looking for. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:operator%3Dindependent no, I think he wants a tag that says: this petrol station is not associated with one of the big mineral oil companies. The proposed tag operator=independent is a hack by putting something different than an operator into the operator value, IMHO nothing we should encourage, and this information will be lost as soon as someone adds a proper operator to the POI. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
I don't object to the operator=independent tag. That's an okay addition to the scenario. However, I do object to tagging these things as amenities. On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry, fuel is not a car_part. And these small fuel shops are not an amenity. Stalemate. @Fly - these places are operated by private individuals out of the front of their homes primarily. It's typically a small shed with a large window thru which the fuel is either pumped or handed over in repurposed whiskey bottles. It barely qualifies as a shop but I want a way to make them visible and useful for those who need them. The local Thai farmers ain't gonna use OSM to find them. And I'm not gonna stop and interview them to get their names. On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:12 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-23 14:55 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: Ok, if it's only 2 or 3 liters, it's not really a fuel station, but rather a shop=car_parts. I'd prefer shop=pharmacy, dispensing=no ;-) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
2015-03-23 15:30 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: 2 liters of fuel are as much car_parts as a bakery is bicycle_parts. The definition says: A place selling auto parts, auto accessories, motor oil, car chemicals, etc. That fits perfectly. can you expand? Someone sitting roadside selling just a few liters of petrol, how does he comply with this definition? Petrol is not in the list, it is neither auto parts nor auto accessories nor motor oil nor car chemicals. Are you after the etc.? Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
Am 23.03.2015 um 07:02 schrieb johnw: On Mar 20, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: You can change it .. or make proposals here. Just don't change the existing values and it should be fine. I'd think you'd be adding heating oils, propane and kerosene. The wiki entry is uneditable - I’ve edited quite a few wiki pages now, so I’m used to going to the edit tab and seeing the text markup in the text box to edit, but there’s only a snippet for the top of the page - the table is not there to be edited (yes, I’m attempting to edit the whole page, so it should be there). I’ve never seen an error like this before. Please, always include a link. Guess you are looking for the template page of fuel types [1]. By the way, thought we use operator=* instead of tenant=*. What is the difference or is it something we need to clean up [2] ? Does tenant=* with only little more than 400 appearances according to taginfo [3] really deserve an own wiki page [4] ? Cheers fly [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Fuel_types [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfuel#Names [3] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=tenant [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Atenant ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 23.03.2015 11:02, Dave Swarthout wrote: An amenity is something the /general public/ might like or use or want to visit. These little shops are definitely not that. They sell small quantities of fuel, usually 2 or 3 liters, to local motorcycle drivers. That's why the general public might like to visit these shops - or any other fuel station. Ok, if it's only 2 or 3 liters, it's not really a fuel station, but rather a shop=car_parts. Anyway, we don't need to invent a new tag. And the Wiki's definition of shop is: A place selling retail products or services. Too brief perhaps but it does allow for a wide range of additions. Cafes, restaurants and theaters sell retail products or services as well. You can use either of the amenity=* or shop=* keys, you just need to stick to it. Meanwhile, until the renderers get smart, people are going to travel to these shops hoping to fill up their SUVs. This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. I do not see why there is so much resistance to adding another value to the shop keys in existence. There are some pretty strange special values out there: shop=bag shop=e-cigarette shop=fashion (??) One evil cannot justify another evil. I never set the shop=fashion tag, because it's just a useless synonym for shop=clothes. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
2015-03-23 14:55 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: Ok, if it's only 2 or 3 liters, it's not really a fuel station, but rather a shop=car_parts. 2 liters of fuel are as much car_parts as a bakery is bicycle_parts. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
2015-03-23 14:55 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: Ok, if it's only 2 or 3 liters, it's not really a fuel station, but rather a shop=car_parts. I'd prefer shop=pharmacy, dispensing=no ;-) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 23.03.2015 14:50, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: amenity=fuel fuel=bottled Which would render indistinguishable from a full service fuel station. That's fine, because selling fuel is what makes it a fuel station. You have missed the point of this thread. The world is not perfect. amenity=fuel is broken. It is so much established as a tag for proper fuel stations for cars that it's utopic to expect the tagging to change and people know to tag and evaluate sub-tags. I like the idea of shop=fuel and sub-tags because it gives us the opportunity to make it better this time. Legacy software and rendering still works. also legacy tagging of amenity=fuel still works. But we can add advanced tagging of the fuel-types to get more (and more detailed) information to the database. Exactly the small places in Asia and Africa selling fuel from bottles. Or the places in Japan selling kerosene for heating. Or shops sellign firewood and coal. Or shops selling small amounts of fuel for sport/fishing boats near lakes. Stephan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
Am 23.03.2015 um 15:33 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2015-03-23 15:27 GMT+01:00 Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de: The wiki describes operator=independent as he value has been used when exact details of the operator are not known, other than that they are a small independent firm. Sounds like that's exactly what we are looking for. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:operator%3Dindependent no, I think he wants a tag that says: this petrol station is not associated with one of the big mineral oil companies. The proposed tag operator=independent is a hack by putting something different than an operator into the operator value, IMHO nothing we should encourage, and this information will be lost as soon as someone adds a proper operator to the POI. Yeah, the value of operator is a string and there might exist some person or brand/company call Independent. There will be always an operator so operator=independent does not work for two reasons. We need an additional tag for independent fuel stations. This tag is useful for several shops aswell. chain_independent=yes ? Sorry, my English is AE influenced and not my mother tong, so I have some difficulties to find some proper words. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
2015-03-23 11:02 GMT+01:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: I agree with amenity=fuel + a subtag like these (if needed). This is not the way to go. An amenity is something the *general public* might like or use or want to visit. These little shops are definitely not that. They sell small quantities of fuel, usually 2 or 3 liters, to local motorcycle drivers. And the Wiki's definition of shop is: A place selling retail products or services. Too brief perhaps but it does allow for a wide range of additions. Meanwhile, until the renderers get smart, people are going to travel to these shops hoping to fill up their SUVs. This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. I do not see why there is so much resistance to adding another value to the shop keys in existence. completely agree, this is NOT something that should be done with subtagging. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Mar 20, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: You can change it .. or make proposals here. Just don't change the existing values and it should be fine. I'd think you'd be adding heating oils, propane and kerosene. The wiki entry is uneditable - I’ve edited quite a few wiki pages now, so I’m used to going to the edit tab and seeing the text markup in the text box to edit, but there’s only a snippet for the top of the page - the table is not there to be edited (yes, I’m attempting to edit the whole page, so it should be there). I’ve never seen an error like this before. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
How does the tagging differ from an unstaffed filling station where you enter your credit card and fill up the tank of your car yourself 24/7 like I seem them all over the place in the Netherlands? In the situation you describe I really prefer shop=*. Regards, Jan At these places you could fill up your SUV tank and hence they are tagged appropriately. I add: amenity=fuel automated=yes description:en=A vending machine accepting cash in notes and/or coin that dispenses automotive fuel 24/7. Most are poorly marked and offer no other services. fuel:diesel=yes/no fuel:gasohol_91=yes/no fuel:gasohol_95=yes/no fuel:gasoline_91=yes/no fuel:gasoline_95=yes/no name=* opening_hours=24/7 payment:cash=yes payment:credit_cards=no source=GPS, geolocated photo vending=fuel vending_machine=yes ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 4:23 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-23 11:02 GMT+01:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: I agree with amenity=fuel + a subtag like these (if needed). This is not the way to go. An amenity is something the general public might like or use or want to visit. These little shops are definitely not that. +1 here. Tagging these as amenity=fuel violates the human expectation for what a fuel shop is. Especially if rendered, it degrades the value of the existing mapping, by making OSM feel unreliable. This is similar to tagging undrinkable drinking water, toilets that can't be used, or a roadside strawberry stand as a convenience store in order to get it render. It makes it harder to find proper fuel on the map. shop=fuel is semantically good, but almost certain to be confused with amenity=fuel. These stands are also far more volatile than a proper fuel station. And once they cease business very hard to un-map. With a proper fuel station you can hope to eventually remove stale data via high resolution imagery. With the* amenity=neighborhood_fuel_vendor* you have no chance of armchair mapping it away. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 20.03.2015 00:48, Warin wrote: On 20/03/2015 9:39 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk mailto:a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: amenity=fuel fuel=bottled Which would render indistinguishable from a full service fuel station. That's fine, because selling fuel is what makes it a fuel station. fuel=bottled in addition would create some confusion if the fuel was in a drum with a pump. Rendering can change.. if there is enough need. For example some renders look for; the surface tag to render roads that are unpaved differently from those that are paved. the tags for bicycle use to determine if paths, footways are available for bicycle use.. As I said the key fuel= is in use to distinguish the type of fuel .. CNG, diesel, petrol, kero etc. Not for the dispensing method. amenity=fuel and possibly dispenser= bottle, drum, pump (where pump is what Australians call a 'bowser' .. and what is presently used to render amenity=fuel) or fuel:storage=bottle, drum,tank. Needs words to describe there things, particularly that the 'tank' is much larger than the drum. I agree with amenity=fuel + a subtag like these (if needed). -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: I agree with amenity=fuel + a subtag like these (if needed). This is not the way to go. An amenity is something the *general public* might like or use or want to visit. These little shops are definitely not that. They sell small quantities of fuel, usually 2 or 3 liters, to local motorcycle drivers. And the Wiki's definition of shop is: A place selling retail products or services. Too brief perhaps but it does allow for a wide range of additions. Meanwhile, until the renderers get smart, people are going to travel to these shops hoping to fill up their SUVs. This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. I do not see why there is so much resistance to adding another value to the shop keys in existence. There are some pretty strange special values out there: shop=bag shop=e-cigarette shop=fashion (??) What the hell does a fashion shop sell? Fashion of course. I wonder when the renderers will decide to deal with bag shops? Dave ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
Sent from my iPhone On Mar 24, 2015, at 2:48 AM, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: On 23.03.2015 15:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2 liters of fuel are as much car_parts as a bakery is bicycle_parts. The definition says: A place selling auto parts, auto accessories, motor oil, car chemicals, etc. That fits perfectly. can you expand? Someone sitting roadside selling just a few liters of petrol, how does he comply with this definition? Petrol is not in the list, it is neither auto parts nor auto accessories nor motor oil nor car chemicals. Are you after the etc.? Petrol is similar to motor oil, both are fluids made from mineral oil. Diesel is identical with light fuel oil. So this is clearly the same group of products, especially when sold in equally small quantities. What else is the etc. supposed to mean? Just because they are both made from oil, and sold in similar quantities does not make the amenity or shop similar. This is about people's expectations. A toilet and a drinking fountain both involve fixtures that use water, yet tagged separately. Same with water point, tap, bidet, and other water based amenities - because people's *expectations* of what is present would be broken if I tagged a drinking fountain as a tap or toilet. That's the point of this is discussion. If I saw a car parts icon listed in Africa, and I need to get parts for vehicle ( even a single can of motor oil) - and I went to one of these shops, and there was an old lady selling gasoline for scooters in whiskey bottles out of a window in their house, I'd think the tagger had lost their mind and delete the shop. Similarly - if the tagger tagged this as a gas station, I'd think they are joking. I don't tag granny's roadside vegetable stand as a market nor distribution warehouse - but that is the same thing you are suggesting - but in some places it might be a permanent and expected way for some people to get vegetables - so how do I tag it? Do I pollute market when it is a table with 10 green onions and a few eggplants? They are a farmer, so is it food distribution? Neither works, so a new solution should be found (for this example). Go look at my kerosene tagging example, and tell me what tag you would put on a gas station that doesn't actually sell gasoline or any fuel for cars. Should you like to further dilute petrol station tagging and include those too? If I see a gas pump icon, and thanks to the renders and data users, I would see a gas pump icon in both cases, it would make me very pissed to show up there with a car expecting 50L of gasoline. That's what we're trying to avoid. Javbw -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 23.03.2015 15:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2 liters of fuel are as much car_parts as a bakery is bicycle_parts. The definition says: A place selling auto parts, auto accessories, motor oil, car chemicals, etc. That fits perfectly. can you expand? Someone sitting roadside selling just a few liters of petrol, how does he comply with this definition? Petrol is not in the list, it is neither auto parts nor auto accessories nor motor oil nor car chemicals. Are you after the etc.? Petrol is similar to motor oil, both are fluids made from mineral oil. Diesel is identical with light fuel oil. So this is clearly the same group of products, especially when sold in equally small quantities. What else is the etc. supposed to mean? -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
I agree completely with what John said in the previous reply. Repeat: a fuel shop is not a car_parts shop. The etc. was probably added there as a catch all to include tools specific to cars or whatever but it definitely, certainly does not include petrol. Dave On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 4:37 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Mar 24, 2015, at 2:48 AM, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: On 23.03.2015 15:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2 liters of fuel are as much car_parts as a bakery is bicycle_parts. The definition says: A place selling auto parts, auto accessories, motor oil, car chemicals, etc. That fits perfectly. can you expand? Someone sitting roadside selling just a few liters of petrol, how does he comply with this definition? Petrol is not in the list, it is neither auto parts nor auto accessories nor motor oil nor car chemicals. Are you after the etc.? Petrol is similar to motor oil, both are fluids made from mineral oil. Diesel is identical with light fuel oil. So this is clearly the same group of products, especially when sold in equally small quantities. What else is the etc. supposed to mean? Just because they are both made from oil, and sold in similar quantities does not make the amenity or shop similar. This is about people's expectations. A toilet and a drinking fountain both involve fixtures that use water, yet tagged separately. Same with water point, tap, bidet, and other water based amenities - because people's *expectations* of what is present would be broken if I tagged a drinking fountain as a tap or toilet. That's the point of this is discussion. If I saw a car parts icon listed in Africa, and I need to get parts for vehicle ( even a single can of motor oil) - and I went to one of these shops, and there was an old lady selling gasoline for scooters in whiskey bottles out of a window in their house, I'd think the tagger had lost their mind and delete the shop. Similarly - if the tagger tagged this as a gas station, I'd think they are joking. I don't tag granny's roadside vegetable stand as a market nor distribution warehouse - but that is the same thing you are suggesting - but in some places it might be a permanent and expected way for some people to get vegetables - so how do I tag it? Do I pollute market when it is a table with 10 green onions and a few eggplants? They are a farmer, so is it food distribution? Neither works, so a new solution should be found (for this example). Go look at my kerosene tagging example, and tell me what tag you would put on a gas station that doesn't actually sell gasoline or any fuel for cars. Should you like to further dilute petrol station tagging and include those too? If I see a gas pump icon, and thanks to the renders and data users, I would see a gas pump icon in both cases, it would make me very pissed to show up there with a car expecting 50L of gasoline. That's what we're trying to avoid. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
Also, Bryce makes this point, a valid point I must add: These stands are also far more volatile than a proper fuel station. And once they cease business very hard to un-map. That's true but it's also true of many other objects. Mapping the world is a dynamic endeavor because things change: roads are built, railroads are converted into bike paths, construction=yes becomes building=yes. Here in Thailand, many small fuel shops now feature vending machines to dispense gasoline and are often open 24/7. I believe the shops we're talking about here will eventually be replaced by these. I'm tagging those as amenity=fuel with other tags to fine tune the situation. See the Wiki under amenity=vending_machine http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dvending_machine There is a bigger photo of this new fueling point here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Vending_machine_for_motor_fuel,_Thailand.jpg . At these places you could fill up your SUV tank and hence they are tagged appropriately. I add: amenity=fuel automated=yes description:en=A vending machine accepting cash in notes and/or coin that dispenses automotive fuel 24/7. Most are poorly marked and offer no other services. fuel:diesel=yes/no fuel:gasohol_91=yes/no fuel:gasohol_95=yes/no fuel:gasoline_91=yes/no fuel:gasoline_95=yes/no name=* opening_hours=24/7 payment:cash=yes payment:credit_cards=no source=GPS, geolocated photo vending=fuel vending_machine=yes In the 5 years I've been motorcycling around Thailand I'm seeing more and more of these. But the other type, the shops we're working with now, will likely be around for many years. They should be mapped in some meaningful, and useful, way. On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 8:04 AM, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: I agree completely with what John said in the previous reply. Repeat: a fuel shop is not a car_parts shop. The etc. was probably added there as a catch all to include tools specific to cars or whatever but it definitely, certainly does not include petrol. Dave On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 4:37 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Mar 24, 2015, at 2:48 AM, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: On 23.03.2015 15:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2 liters of fuel are as much car_parts as a bakery is bicycle_parts. The definition says: A place selling auto parts, auto accessories, motor oil, car chemicals, etc. That fits perfectly. can you expand? Someone sitting roadside selling just a few liters of petrol, how does he comply with this definition? Petrol is not in the list, it is neither auto parts nor auto accessories nor motor oil nor car chemicals. Are you after the etc.? Petrol is similar to motor oil, both are fluids made from mineral oil. Diesel is identical with light fuel oil. So this is clearly the same group of products, especially when sold in equally small quantities. What else is the etc. supposed to mean? Just because they are both made from oil, and sold in similar quantities does not make the amenity or shop similar. This is about people's expectations. A toilet and a drinking fountain both involve fixtures that use water, yet tagged separately. Same with water point, tap, bidet, and other water based amenities - because people's *expectations* of what is present would be broken if I tagged a drinking fountain as a tap or toilet. That's the point of this is discussion. If I saw a car parts icon listed in Africa, and I need to get parts for vehicle ( even a single can of motor oil) - and I went to one of these shops, and there was an old lady selling gasoline for scooters in whiskey bottles out of a window in their house, I'd think the tagger had lost their mind and delete the shop. Similarly - if the tagger tagged this as a gas station, I'd think they are joking. I don't tag granny's roadside vegetable stand as a market nor distribution warehouse - but that is the same thing you are suggesting - but in some places it might be a permanent and expected way for some people to get vegetables - so how do I tag it? Do I pollute market when it is a table with 10 green onions and a few eggplants? They are a farmer, so is it food distribution? Neither works, so a new solution should be found (for this example). Go look at my kerosene tagging example, and tell me what tag you would put on a gas station that doesn't actually sell gasoline or any fuel for cars. Should you like to further dilute petrol station tagging and include those too? If I see a gas pump icon, and thanks to the renders and data users, I would see a gas pump icon in both cases, it would make me very pissed to show up there with a car expecting 50L of gasoline. That's what we're trying to avoid. Javbw -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
Sent from my iPhone On Mar 24, 2015, at 10:22 AM, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: n the 5 years I've been motorcycling around Thailand I'm seeing more and more of these. But the other type, the shops we're working with now, will likely be around for many years. They should be mapped in some meaningful, and useful, way +1 The same roadside tables under a tarp have been there for 10 years selling cucumbers and seasonal vegetables. There are tomato, egg, and vegetable machines here that are over 30 years old, my wives occasionally buys eggs from one for the past 20 years. These somewhat informal, yet persistent shops deserve a spot, but they should not pollute the tags others expect to find on a more traditional and larger shop. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Mar 24, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: The etc. was probably added there as a catch all to include tools specific to cars or whatever but it definitely, certainly does not include petrol. Car stores sell all the aftermarket stuff for cars (besides tools and parts) interior accessories, entertainment GPS stuff, towing rigs, roof racks, and other modifications for cars, along with cleaning accessories and things for tires. They’ll have perfromance additives for fuels as well - but no real fuel. yea, Gasoline is not on that list. Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
Am 19.03.2015 um 17:43 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2015-03-19 17:12 GMT+01:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: brand=none or no_brand=yes to proper mark the independence. some independent petrol stations are organized in associations and use these as their brand, see e.g. here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesverband_freier_Tankstellen not being part of a mineral oil corporation doesn't necessarily mean you don't use a brand name. So, we need an additional tag for independent shops/petrol stations as brand=* and operator=* might be already used. Do we need company_chain=* or does independent=yes work ? cu ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
Argh, let's not invent yet another amenity type for this. Why not tag for the dispenser type? Then you'd still be able to find fuel as an amenity (which is better than nothing if you don't get your preferred dispenser type in most cases) but you could, say, filter for only fuel amenities that have, say, a fuel pump. Might also consider tagging for type of fuel pump since it seems my generation struggles with pumps older than roughly the middle 1990s, and would be completely lost at a gravity feed pump with a glass globe if they've never before traveled parts of western Canada where these are still in common use (it seems PetroCanada is spendthrift to a fault at times)... On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 1:31 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: amenity=bottled_motor_fuel phone= (because many have mobile phones) name= (name of individual proprietor) It has the same fuzzy border as supermarket vs. convenience. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: I've come across regular filling stations without a roof. Somewhere in Scotland.. on a Sunday .. no one there but a credit card reader so I could get fuel. Others in Australia .. White Cliffs, Warburton, Docker River, Laverton, Carnegie Station and many others. The existence of a roof does not identify a 'regular filling station' to me. Same, though my case was on the job. There's a lot of filling stations in Oklahoma and Kansas, particularly in less traveled and/or more arid regions, that don't have a roof (and often don't have highway facing price signage, or if it does, it's old enough that it predates prices exceeding a dollar; in either case, if you need to ask how much gas is, you don't need gas that bad). This last winter saw a lot of water lines burst in Tulsa and Oklahoma City, which if the break happened near a gas station, it probably flooded the roof to the point of structural collapse. In the case of independent stations (or some of the less common, smaller brands like Marathon or Sunoco), the station reopened as soon as the wreckage of the old roof was removed, and there's no plans to rebuild the roof. Tangent: I know there's a number of these in Tulsa and I've not mapped these yet mostly out of situational blindness, as I'm strongly inclined to shop for gas exclusively on price first and availability of what I want for lunch or breakfast, which generally means I'm stopping at QuikTrip (one could really seriously detail map these with bike parking, car parking, restrooms, as a fast food amenity (if it's also a QT Kitchens location), air compressor, truck parking (at the larger ones), etc, and often have more to offer than some small town grocery stores. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Mar 23, 2015, at 9:13 AM, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: Nobody's proposing another amenity tag. My thrust here is to gather opinions about adding another shop key, this one a shop for petrol (gas, gasohol, etc.). The places I have in mind are not the same as standard fueling places, tagged amenity=fuel, in fact, I wish them to be tagged differently so the two types are not confused. They're much smaller and offer no other services or amenities whatsoever. +1 Yep - non-standard places to buy gas, possibly not gas for a car. basically not a “Gas station”. For some fuel types, it isn’t even for cars… I want to tag permanent kerosene dispensaries (for heaters), but I don’t want them confused with gas stations - though they use similar equipment. Some people want to tag informal/ad hoc/ low volume gasoline dispensaries that do not offer the expected volumes of gasoline you would expect at a “gas station” - nor the amenities that a standard gas station would offer. jsut as we differentiate between fast food and restaurant that serves burgers, there should be a difference between a non-standard fuel shop and a gas station, though both might have gasoline, in some form, for cars I tried to attach my icon for this purpose but this silly listserve software doesn't allow that. it has to be really small - like 10-20 K. Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
Nobody's proposing another amenity tag. My thrust here is to gather opinions about adding another shop key, this one a shop for petrol (gas, gasohol, etc.). The places I have in mind are not the same as standard fueling places, tagged amenity=fuel, in fact, I wish them to be tagged differently so the two types are not confused. They're much smaller and offer no other services or amenities whatsoever. I tried to attach my icon for this purpose but this silly listserve software doesn't allow that. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
There is also more risk that fuel sold for cars is more polluted or that water was added. Met vriendelijke groet/with kind regards, *Jan van Bekkum* www.DeEinderVoorbij.nl Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:01 PM, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: Obviously many mappers aren't reading the Wiki and use whatever tag sounds right to them. Makes what we're discussing here seem like a waste of energy :-( Wrong! Our process here will result in a tag that even non-wiki-readers or non-English-readers will use perfectly! I don't think that tag happens to be shop=fuel by the way. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 12:20 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: I haven't had a chance to read up on how to define the fuel type. I imagine there is various heating oils, propane and kerosene, LNG, coal, wood, different grades of gas, diesel, aviation fuel, jet fuel, etc - even farm gas which has different taxes. See: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=fuel Consider also the form max_quantity=X litres, with rendering deciding the threshold between a tiny fuel stand and a proper petrol station. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 20.03.2015 11:44, John Willis wrote: As long as distribution is non-traditional, a shop selling fuel oil and cordwood for heating is fine with me (I have to read up on fuel= tagging ) shop=fuel sounds reasonable. It seems to be used for coal, heating oil and kerosine. And a hand full of mistaggings of amenity=fuel) http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/8iB as it's a new tag it can be properly refined by additional tags. amenity=fuel was introduced as car-fuel and is so wide understood as this that it's not realistic to expect this to change. and amenity is overloaded already. think of it similar as amenity=place_of_worship. This is also a key that needs evaluation of at least the religion sub-key to be reasonably rendered. Similar can be done with shop=fuel. It can be differentiated into the kind of fuel available as well as taking into account quantity limitations if needed. If we include tagging for proper petrol stations it could also replace amenity=fuel in the long term. Keeping the sub-key tagging compatible would allow to tag it simultaneous. Modern data consumer and renderer evaluate shop=fuel and subkeys, legacy only the amenity and miss out the newer features like coal or bottled fuel. Stephan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
I was gonna say we should probably consider adding subtags for bottled gas like propane and butane so that shop=gas might eventually be subsumed by a new overall shop=fuel. By the way, firewood is a fuel and could conceivably fit in here too. I would want to stay away from using another amenity tag, as John suggests too. This is not an amenity but a shop catering to a certain group of people Wiki definition: amenity=Covering an assortment of community facilities. The Wiki doesn't really spell out the differences between shop and amenities that sell things either so it's difficult to determine what belongs where. Also, FYI, I took a look at the objects currently tagged as shop=gas and many of them appear to be incorrect. Judging from the aerials they are actually the sort of thing we're referring to here as a full-service fuel station, amenities with names like Valero, Texaco, Chevron. Obviously many mappers aren't reading the Wiki and use whatever tag sounds right to them. Makes what we're discussing here seem like a waste of energy :-( On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 11:44 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Maybe amenity=fuel_stand? Then we can tag it onto existing shops (like a DIY store) or micromap it onto gas stations. As long as distribution is non-traditional, a shop selling fuel oil and cordwood for heating is fine with me (I have to read up on fuel= tagging ) I know there are shops and problem who sell stacked firewood as a fuel - or is that some other kind of shop? Javbw On Mar 20, 2015, at 1:30 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:40 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: If the DIY kerosene stands were tagged as gas stations, there would be thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of gas stations across Japan that are not gas stations. So I agree we should use shop=fuel. Great input, up to the conclusion. shop=fuel and shop=gas likely too close to the gas station tagging, and would start poping up where it's least expected. I don't have a great suggestion for anything better. But I do suggest that the next mapper to come by may talk about firewood shops, and other types of fuel. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
I haven't had a chance to read up on how to define the fuel type. I imagine there is various heating oils, propane and kerosene, LNG, coal, wood, different grades of gas, diesel, aviation fuel, jet fuel, etc - even farm gas which has different taxes. How can those be defined - esp if a shop sells more than one ( like my Japanese gas station that also sells kerosene?) Javbw On Mar 20, 2015, at 3:01 PM, Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote: On 20.03.2015 11:44, John Willis wrote: As long as distribution is non-traditional, a shop selling fuel oil and cordwood for heating is fine with me (I have to read up on fuel= tagging ) shop=fuel sounds reasonable. It seems to be used for coal, heating oil and kerosine. And a hand full of mistaggings of amenity=fuel) http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/8iB as it's a new tag it can be properly refined by additional tags. amenity=fuel was introduced as car-fuel and is so wide understood as this that it's not realistic to expect this to change. and amenity is overloaded already. think of it similar as amenity=place_of_worship. This is also a key that needs evaluation of at least the religion sub-key to be reasonably rendered. Similar can be done with shop=fuel. It can be differentiated into the kind of fuel available as well as taking into account quantity limitations if needed. If we include tagging for proper petrol stations it could also replace amenity=fuel in the long term. Keeping the sub-key tagging compatible would allow to tag it simultaneous. Modern data consumer and renderer evaluate shop=fuel and subkeys, legacy only the amenity and miss out the newer features like coal or bottled fuel. Stephan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 20/03/2015 5:08 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:01 PM, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com mailto:daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: Obviously many mappers aren't reading the Wiki and use whatever tag sounds right to them. Makes what we're discussing here seem like a waste of energy :-( Wrong! Our process here will result in a tag that even non-wiki-readers or non-English-readers will use perfectly! I don't think that tag happens to be shop=fuel by the way. So what do you think it should be? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
2015-03-19 22:46 GMT+01:00 Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: I've come across regular filling stations without a roof. +1, in Italy you can find lots of them (in the city there are much more of these than roofed ones). Also don't seem to have oil traps in many occasions (not completely sure on this), often they are simply 2 petrol pumps at the roadside, with a very small cabin for the service staff which is mostly absent (you pay in advance at an automated system). Example here: https://www.google.it/maps/place/Rome/@41.859706,12.495028,3a,75y,14.06h,80.83t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sc27sLdpnlS06ecnb-MeQzw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x132f6196f9928ebb:0xb90f770693656e38 Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Mar 20, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 20/03/2015 6:20 PM, John Willis wrote: I haven't had a chance to read up on how to define the fuel type. I imagine there is various heating oils, propane and kerosene, LNG, coal, wood, different grades of gas, diesel, aviation fuel, jet fuel, etc - even farm gas which has different taxes. How can those be defined - esp if a shop sells more than one ( like my Japanese gas station that also sells kerosene?) Read the wiki? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fuel http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fuel Thanks for the link. that lists various octane ratings, LPG, wood, electric, diesel... It misses on various things as it is designed for amenity=fuel ... but has been expanded for amenity=bbq ... that expansion has not followed the same system though. well, I guess you could use fuel:wood=yes for a place that sells firewood, same with charcoal, if it was of mappable importance. at least they didn’t try to define the liquid fuels the same way (“gas”), and left it to us to add propane/kerosene, etc. You can change it .. or make proposals here. Just don't change the existing values and it should be fine. I'd think you'd be adding heating oils, propane and kerosene. I'd leave the avgas and jet fuel for later when aviation types want it, not something you normally see for sale. yea, I’m more interested in kerosene for mapping Japan. Propane in the US is for BBQ grills, right? as far as the heating oils they use for the central heaters in the eastern US, I have no idea what it is actually called. 'Opal' fuel is a special petrol that exists in 'outback' Australia .. maybe that could be added. if that is how it’s displayed, I would add it, as it is not “normal” gasoline. There’s another additive down there too, the adblue stuff. it discourages kids sniffing petrol and ending up without brains. Some people use avgas in their vehicles for the same purpose. there must not be a lot of stuff to do out there, I take it. Javbw.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 20/03/2015 6:20 PM, John Willis wrote: I haven't had a chance to read up on how to define the fuel type. I imagine there is various heating oils, propane and kerosene, LNG, coal, wood, different grades of gas, diesel, aviation fuel, jet fuel, etc - even farm gas which has different taxes. How can those be defined - esp if a shop sells more than one ( like my Japanese gas station that also sells kerosene?) Read the wiki? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fuel that lists various octane ratings, LPG, wood, electric, diesel... It misses on various things as it is designed for amenity=fuel ... but has been expanded for amenity=bbq ... that expansion has not followed the same system though. You can change it .. or make proposals here. Just don't change the existing values and it should be fine. I'd think you'd be adding heating oils, propane and kerosene. I'd leave the avgas and jet fuel for later when aviation types want it, not something you normally see for sale. 'Opal' fuel is a special petrol that exists in 'outback' Australia .. maybe that could be added. it discourages kids sniffing petrol and ending up without brains. Some people use avgas in their vehicles for the same purpose. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 20/03/2015 5:01 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote: I was gonna say we should probably consider adding subtags for bottled gas like propane and butane so that shop=gas might eventually be subsumed by a new overall shop=fuel. By the way, firewood is a fuel and could conceivably fit in here too. I would want to stay away from using another amenity tag, as John suggests too. This is not an amenity but a shop catering to a certain group of people Wiki definition: amenity=Covering an assortment of community facilities. The Wiki doesn't really spell out the differences between shop and amenities that sell things either so it's difficult to determine what belongs where. Also, FYI, I took a look at the objects currently tagged as shop=gas and many of them appear to be incorrect. Judging from the aerials they are actually the sort of thing we're referring to here as a full-service fuel station, amenities with names like Valero, Texaco, Chevron. North American I'd guess from the word 'gas' ... search the wiki for 'gas' redirects to a Russian page .. in English.. a gas pipeline. That is not very helpful to a North American... it should not automatically redirect to that .. rather give the options ... amenity=fuel for petrol/gas stations gas pipelines in both Russian and English... Obviously many mappers aren't reading the Wiki and use whatever tag sounds right to them. Makes what we're discussing here seem like a waste of energy :-( From my above search .. looking for 'gas' gets you a Russian page on gas pipeling... no help at all. No wonder we have shop=gas .. very logical from the North American mapper view. I've edited the wiki 'Gas' page... My Russian is long ago tourist stuff .. beer, icecream (much better than the beer!) that kind of thing. If someone with a little Russian can look at it? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Gas ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2015, at 9:18 PM, Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com wrote: There is a similar confusion for kerosine (US), paraffine (UK), petroleum (NL); it all the same liquid Yikes! Paraffin is a wax, and petroleum is just a fancy word for oil in general. I think Kerosene is the winner for the tag. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraffin_wax They mention paraffin is sometimes used to refer to the separate kerosene liquid. Language is so interesting ^_^ On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 12:29 PM johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On Mar 20, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 20/03/2015 6:20 PM, John Willis wrote: I haven't had a chance to read up on how to define the fuel type. I imagine there is various heating oils, propane and kerosene, LNG, coal, wood, different grades of gas, diesel, aviation fuel, jet fuel, etc - even farm gas which has different taxes. How can those be defined - esp if a shop sells more than one ( like my Japanese gas station that also sells kerosene?) Read the wiki? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fuel Thanks for the link. that lists various octane ratings, LPG, wood, electric, diesel... It misses on various things as it is designed for amenity=fuel ... but has been expanded for amenity=bbq ... that expansion has not followed the same system though. well, I guess you could use fuel:wood=yes for a place that sells firewood, same with charcoal, if it was of mappable importance. at least they didn’t try to define the liquid fuels the same way (“gas”), and left it to us to add propane/kerosene, etc. You can change it .. or make proposals here. Just don't change the existing values and it should be fine. I'd think you'd be adding heating oils, propane and kerosene. I'd leave the avgas and jet fuel for later when aviation types want it, not something you normally see for sale. yea, I’m more interested in kerosene for mapping Japan. Propane in the US is for BBQ grills, right? as far as the heating oils they use for the central heaters in the eastern US, I have no idea what it is actually called. 'Opal' fuel is a special petrol that exists in 'outback' Australia .. maybe that could be added. if that is how it’s displayed, I would add it, as it is not “normal” gasoline. There’s another additive down there too, the adblue stuff. it discourages kids sniffing petrol and ending up without brains. Some people use avgas in their vehicles for the same purpose. there must not be a lot of stuff to do out there, I take it. Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
There is a similar confusion for kerosine (US), paraffine (UK), petroleum (NL); it all the same liquid. On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 12:29 PM johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On Mar 20, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 20/03/2015 6:20 PM, John Willis wrote: I haven't had a chance to read up on how to define the fuel type. I imagine there is various heating oils, propane and kerosene, LNG, coal, wood, different grades of gas, diesel, aviation fuel, jet fuel, etc - even farm gas which has different taxes. How can those be defined - esp if a shop sells more than one ( like my Japanese gas station that also sells kerosene?) Read the wiki? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fuel Thanks for the link. that lists various octane ratings, LPG, wood, electric, diesel... It misses on various things as it is designed for amenity=fuel ... but has been expanded for amenity=bbq ... that expansion has not followed the same system though. well, I guess you could use fuel:wood=yes for a place that sells firewood, same with charcoal, if it was of mappable importance. at least they didn’t try to define the liquid fuels the same way (“gas”), and left it to us to add propane/kerosene, etc. You can change it .. or make proposals here. Just don't change the existing values and it should be fine. I'd think you'd be adding heating oils, propane and kerosene. I'd leave the avgas and jet fuel for later when aviation types want it, not something you normally see for sale. yea, I’m more interested in kerosene for mapping Japan. Propane in the US is for BBQ grills, right? as far as the heating oils they use for the central heaters in the eastern US, I have no idea what it is actually called. 'Opal' fuel is a special petrol that exists in 'outback' Australia .. maybe that could be added. if that is how it’s displayed, I would add it, as it is not “normal” gasoline. There’s another additive down there too, the adblue stuff. it discourages kids sniffing petrol and ending up without brains. Some people use avgas in their vehicles for the same purpose. there must not be a lot of stuff to do out there, I take it. Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 19 March 2015 at 21:46, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: The existence of a roof does not identify a 'regular filling station' to me. amenity=fuel pumps=8 vs. amenity=fuel pumps=0 ? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: If you do require a larger volume of fuel .. I think those low volume places would direct you to a high volume place, and be able to provide enough fuel to get there. If you speak their language :-). The bottled fuel is a world apart from a a proper BP station. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: amenity=fuel fuel=bottled Which would render indistinguishable from a full service fuel station. fuel=bottled in addition would create some confusion if the fuel was in a drum with a pump. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 20/03/2015 9:30 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: On 19 March 2015 at 21:46, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: The existence of a roof does not identify a 'regular filling station' to me. amenity=fuel pumps=8 vs. amenity=fuel pumps=0 ? Humm pump is used http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:pump And pump does not tell the different=ce between bottle and drum. I've suggested the dispensing method as one idea.. Another idea is the storage method or quanity .. easiest for the mapper to determine method? fuel:storage=bottle, drum, tank Needs words to say that the tank is a large volume. ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 20/03/2015 9:01 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: On 19 March 2015 at 09:18, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: Here in Thailand, and especially in rural areas, there are hundreds of shops that sell motor fuel in small quantities. amenity=fuel fuel=bottled The key fuel= is used to identify the type of fuel see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fuel Possibly something like dispensed=bottle/drum/pump ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 20/03/2015 9:39 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk mailto:a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: amenity=fuel fuel=bottled Which would render indistinguishable from a full service fuel station. fuel=bottled in addition would create some confusion if the fuel was in a drum with a pump. Rendering can change.. if there is enough need. For example some renders look for; the surface tag to render roads that are unpaved differently from those that are paved. the tags for bicycle use to determine if paths, footways are available for bicycle use.. As I said the key fuel= is in use to distinguish the type of fuel .. CNG, diesel, petrol, kero etc. Not for the dispensing method. amenity=fuel and possibly dispenser= bottle, drum, pump (where pump is what Australians call a 'bowser' .. and what is presently used to render amenity=fuel) or fuel:storage=bottle, drum,tank. Needs words to describe there things, particularly that the 'tank' is much larger than the drum. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
I don't see where all the confusion comes from. I chose shop=fuel for the exact reason of avoiding confusion with full-service filling stations, which is the primary reason for wanting a new tag in the first place. We want to avoid using amenity=fuel for this type of shop. I have designed a custom icon for use with this sort of shop and they show up fine on my Garmin and Basecamp. It could be modified for use in OSM if needed. The word fuel avoids confusion with the British petrol (petroleum) and the American gas (gasoline) and also with shop=gas which already exists to denote a place that sells propane or camping gas canisters. There is no substance named motorcycle petrol or bike petrol, it's normal gasoline. Roofs do not make a petrol station anymore than do electric pumps. Also, roof is an attribute of a building, not a petrol station. Fuel=bottled won't fly either because the fuel tag defines what variety of fuel is available: diesel, gasohol, or whatever, not its delivery method. Dave On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 6:43 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 20/03/2015 9:30 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: On 19 March 2015 at 21:46, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: The existence of a roof does not identify a 'regular filling station' to me. amenity=fuel pumps=8 vs. amenity=fuel pumps=0 ? Humm pump is used http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:pump And pump does not tell the different=ce between bottle and drum. I've suggested the dispensing method as one idea.. Another idea is the storage method or quanity .. easiest for the mapper to determine method? fuel:storage=bottle, drum, tank Needs words to say that the tank is a large volume. ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
I think they should remain as amenity=fuel (I have visited Thailand and I know what you mean). Local people will know what to expect, but for clarity perhaps subtags should be used to add detail and differentiate between a filling station and a lemonade stand selling fuel. On Thursday, 19 March 2015, Lukas Sommer sommer...@gmail.com wrote: In Benin (Africa) these shops exist also – mostly only a table with some big bottles with fuel. 2015-03-19 9:18 GMT, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com javascript:;: I want to float an idea to get your reactions. Here in Thailand, and especially in rural areas, there are hundreds of shops that sell motor fuel in small quantities. Most of the population drive motorbikes which are used for every sort of transport imaginable. They have a tiny petrol tank, perhaps 4-5 liters, therefore a short range; they need frequent fill-ups. To meet this need local individuals have set up small sheds or kiosks from which they hand pump the small quantities needed. Some shops sell fuel by the liter bottle, often a whiskey bottle. Such shops are poorly marked, seldom have any signs indicating their presence and typically offer no other services. If you live in the area you will know where the fuel shop is, otherwise they're almost invisible At any rate, we're looking for a way to tag these fuel shops in such a way that they become visible in OSM (and on our GPS units), and will not be mistaken for a full size fuel service station. Current tagging practice is to tag them with amenity=fuel and a made up name, for example, Bike petrol or Drummed fuel. The people doing this are aware of the fact that such tagging isn't strictly correct, but they understandably want to be able to find those shops should they run out of fuel. One problem with this Thailand-centric approach, is that other data consumers are unaware of it. Another is that the informal names are multiplying rapidly and one mapper's drummed fuel is another's barreled fuel and another's Bike petrol. Where it will end is anyone's guess. I'm suggesting an addition to the values of the shop key: shop=fuel or perhaps shop=motor_fuel My goal is to standardize the tagging so that at some point these shops can be eventually rendered on Garmin compatible downloaded maps and hence made visible. I have done this for my custom Garmin maps and find it a real asset. Here is a photo of such a shop in my neighborhood: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ABarreled_fuel_shop.jpg -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com -- Lukas Sommer ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org javascript:; https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
Good idea to have such a tag, should include diesel for cars, kerosine for heating and propane/butane for cooking that are sold in the same way. I Kenya we have been in areas far away from regular filling stations; there people are selling diesel from drums. I think shop=fuel is dangerous as it is too close to amenity=fuel (which in my opinion should be shop=fuel). There are more discussions about things tagged as amenity or shop (see for example the discussion about shop=car_storage). On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 10:20 AM Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: I want to float an idea to get your reactions. Here in Thailand, and especially in rural areas, there are hundreds of shops that sell motor fuel in small quantities. Most of the population drive motorbikes which are used for every sort of transport imaginable. They have a tiny petrol tank, perhaps 4-5 liters, therefore a short range; they need frequent fill-ups. To meet this need local individuals have set up small sheds or kiosks from which they hand pump the small quantities needed. Some shops sell fuel by the liter bottle, often a whiskey bottle. Such shops are poorly marked, seldom have any signs indicating their presence and typically offer no other services. If you live in the area you will know where the fuel shop is, otherwise they're almost invisible At any rate, we're looking for a way to tag these fuel shops in such a way that they become visible in OSM (and on our GPS units), and will not be mistaken for a full size fuel service station. Current tagging practice is to tag them with amenity=fuel and a made up name, for example, Bike petrol or Drummed fuel. The people doing this are aware of the fact that such tagging isn't strictly correct, but they understandably want to be able to find those shops should they run out of fuel. One problem with this Thailand-centric approach, is that other data consumers are unaware of it. Another is that the informal names are multiplying rapidly and one mapper's drummed fuel is another's barreled fuel and another's Bike petrol. Where it will end is anyone's guess. I'm suggesting an addition to the values of the shop key: shop=fuel or perhaps shop=motor_fuel My goal is to standardize the tagging so that at some point these shops can be eventually rendered on Garmin compatible downloaded maps and hence made visible. I have done this for my custom Garmin maps and find it a real asset. Here is a photo of such a shop in my neighborhood: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ABarreled_fuel_shop.jpg -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
In Benin (Africa) these shops exist also – mostly only a table with some big bottles with fuel. 2015-03-19 9:18 GMT, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: I want to float an idea to get your reactions. Here in Thailand, and especially in rural areas, there are hundreds of shops that sell motor fuel in small quantities. Most of the population drive motorbikes which are used for every sort of transport imaginable. They have a tiny petrol tank, perhaps 4-5 liters, therefore a short range; they need frequent fill-ups. To meet this need local individuals have set up small sheds or kiosks from which they hand pump the small quantities needed. Some shops sell fuel by the liter bottle, often a whiskey bottle. Such shops are poorly marked, seldom have any signs indicating their presence and typically offer no other services. If you live in the area you will know where the fuel shop is, otherwise they're almost invisible At any rate, we're looking for a way to tag these fuel shops in such a way that they become visible in OSM (and on our GPS units), and will not be mistaken for a full size fuel service station. Current tagging practice is to tag them with amenity=fuel and a made up name, for example, Bike petrol or Drummed fuel. The people doing this are aware of the fact that such tagging isn't strictly correct, but they understandably want to be able to find those shops should they run out of fuel. One problem with this Thailand-centric approach, is that other data consumers are unaware of it. Another is that the informal names are multiplying rapidly and one mapper's drummed fuel is another's barreled fuel and another's Bike petrol. Where it will end is anyone's guess. I'm suggesting an addition to the values of the shop key: shop=fuel or perhaps shop=motor_fuel My goal is to standardize the tagging so that at some point these shops can be eventually rendered on Garmin compatible downloaded maps and hence made visible. I have done this for my custom Garmin maps and find it a real asset. Here is a photo of such a shop in my neighborhood: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ABarreled_fuel_shop.jpg -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com -- Lukas Sommer ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Fuel shops
I want to float an idea to get your reactions. Here in Thailand, and especially in rural areas, there are hundreds of shops that sell motor fuel in small quantities. Most of the population drive motorbikes which are used for every sort of transport imaginable. They have a tiny petrol tank, perhaps 4-5 liters, therefore a short range; they need frequent fill-ups. To meet this need local individuals have set up small sheds or kiosks from which they hand pump the small quantities needed. Some shops sell fuel by the liter bottle, often a whiskey bottle. Such shops are poorly marked, seldom have any signs indicating their presence and typically offer no other services. If you live in the area you will know where the fuel shop is, otherwise they're almost invisible At any rate, we're looking for a way to tag these fuel shops in such a way that they become visible in OSM (and on our GPS units), and will not be mistaken for a full size fuel service station. Current tagging practice is to tag them with amenity=fuel and a made up name, for example, Bike petrol or Drummed fuel. The people doing this are aware of the fact that such tagging isn't strictly correct, but they understandably want to be able to find those shops should they run out of fuel. One problem with this Thailand-centric approach, is that other data consumers are unaware of it. Another is that the informal names are multiplying rapidly and one mapper's drummed fuel is another's barreled fuel and another's Bike petrol. Where it will end is anyone's guess. I'm suggesting an addition to the values of the shop key: shop=fuel or perhaps shop=motor_fuel My goal is to standardize the tagging so that at some point these shops can be eventually rendered on Garmin compatible downloaded maps and hence made visible. I have done this for my custom Garmin maps and find it a real asset. Here is a photo of such a shop in my neighborhood: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ABarreled_fuel_shop.jpg -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
I would prefer a different tag as I would not like the lemonade table to be rendered in the same way as a regular filling station. The tag shop=gas with subtag would be better. On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: I think they should remain as amenity=fuel (I have visited Thailand and I know what you mean). Local people will know what to expect, but for clarity perhaps subtags should be used to add detail and differentiate between a filling station and a lemonade stand selling fuel. On Thursday, 19 March 2015, Lukas Sommer sommer...@gmail.com wrote: In Benin (Africa) these shops exist also – mostly only a table with some big bottles with fuel. 2015-03-19 9:18 GMT, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: I want to float an idea to get your reactions. Here in Thailand, and especially in rural areas, there are hundreds of shops that sell motor fuel in small quantities. Most of the population drive motorbikes which are used for every sort of transport imaginable. They have a tiny petrol tank, perhaps 4-5 liters, therefore a short range; they need frequent fill-ups. To meet this need local individuals have set up small sheds or kiosks from which they hand pump the small quantities needed. Some shops sell fuel by the liter bottle, often a whiskey bottle. Such shops are poorly marked, seldom have any signs indicating their presence and typically offer no other services. If you live in the area you will know where the fuel shop is, otherwise they're almost invisible At any rate, we're looking for a way to tag these fuel shops in such a way that they become visible in OSM (and on our GPS units), and will not be mistaken for a full size fuel service station. Current tagging practice is to tag them with amenity=fuel and a made up name, for example, Bike petrol or Drummed fuel. The people doing this are aware of the fact that such tagging isn't strictly correct, but they understandably want to be able to find those shops should they run out of fuel. One problem with this Thailand-centric approach, is that other data consumers are unaware of it. Another is that the informal names are multiplying rapidly and one mapper's drummed fuel is another's barreled fuel and another's Bike petrol. Where it will end is anyone's guess. I'm suggesting an addition to the values of the shop key: shop=fuel or perhaps shop=motor_fuel My goal is to standardize the tagging so that at some point these shops can be eventually rendered on Garmin compatible downloaded maps and hence made visible. I have done this for my custom Garmin maps and find it a real asset. Here is a photo of such a shop in my neighborhood: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ABarreled_fuel_shop.jpg -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com -- Lukas Sommer ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
I have a similar issue in Japan. Japan uses kerosene for portable heaters in the winter, and there is no real fuel delivery (to a consumer), such as heating oil in the Eastern US. Everyone in Japan has use use plastic 5Gal/18-20L tanks carried in the car and kept outside the house for filling even smaller cans that insert into a room heater. most homes here have tanks of kerosene outside their house (in specially designed tank holders and tank chests, of course). There are two sources of Kerosene everywhere in Japan. 1) Most gas stations have a separate Roof/pump combo for people to bring their tanks to. Although it essentially is an ordinary gas pump, it is not for cars. It has a large step in front where you can set your gas can to fill it. People bring there kerosene cans to the location for filling. These are always separated from he gas pump islands, and often mappable when micro-mapping a gas station. Maybe this is an amenity of the gas station, as just another fuel they offer (like diesel), but I would consider tagging it separately if I can map it. 2) The second is where these Thai fuel stations intersects with my case. Many home stores / DIY stores also sell Kerosene, with a similar stand and filling equipment - with no gas station for cars. Tagging this as a gas station seems really wrong. I’m talking about permanent buildings and underground tanks - but for Kerosene distributed into plastic tanks. I’m not talking about bottled gas they sell for string trimmers inside - I’m talking about a mini gas station just for kerosene - an unorthodox fuel distribution system that should be mapped, but should be differentiated from a “gas station” DIY store 1 https://goo.gl/maps/YTQnz https://goo.gl/maps/YTQnz The small blue pushcarts on the ground help you move the full tanks from the pumps to your car (access to most pumps is restricted to foot only). They sell gasoline 300m away at a 25 pump standard gas station. This so a totally separate amenity not to be confused with a gas station. DIY store 2 https://goo.gl/maps/I8n2y https://goo.gl/maps/I8n2y a smaller 1 pump kerosene stand. It still uses a gas-station style pump, but it is in the small building. Note the (blurry) red gas can icon. In the background, there is a blue gas station in the distance, not related. Gas station https://goo.gl/maps/4S8Gh https://goo.gl/maps/4S8Gh Note there are two separate islands. The small one to the right is the kerosene stand. The woman is loading a filled can, with a plastic bag over it (to keep the smell down). More push carts too. If the DIY kerosene stands were tagged as gas stations, there would be thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of gas stations across Japan that are not gas stations. So I agree we should use shop=fuel. This would separate the proper gas stations (even makesift stands, as long as they hve pumps and presumed large supply of gasoline). and these stands for fuel distribution in an unexpected or non-vehecle oriented way. Then the fuel type can be tagged (kerosene, gasoline, etc), For the example in Thailand, you can tag a fuel stand and add a fuel type tag for Gasoline. this way, we can differentiate it from the gas pump by using the icon of a Gas Can, the traditional rectangle with the X on the side. The can may imply the source of the gasoline is non-traditional (Thailand) or the can is the method accepted by the shop (Japan). Maybe a ranger station or boat dock or emergency service also has some kind of unothodox fuel distribution system using cans or containers, open to the public this would work for that as well. (pulled from google image search). Javbw On Mar 19, 2015, at 9:46 PM, Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com wrote: I would prefer a different tag as I would not like the lemonade table to be rendered in the same way as a regular filling station. The tag shop=gas with subtag would be better. On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com mailto:erringt...@gmail.com wrote: I think they should remain as amenity=fuel (I have visited Thailand and I know what you mean). Local people will know what to expect, but for clarity perhaps subtags should be used to add detail and differentiate between a filling station and a lemonade stand selling fuel. On Thursday, 19 March 2015, Lukas Sommer sommer...@gmail.com mailto:sommer...@gmail.com wrote: In Benin (Africa) these shops exist also – mostly only a table with some big bottles with fuel. 2015-03-19 9:18 GMT, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com : I want to float an idea to get your reactions. Here in Thailand, and especially in rural areas, there are hundreds of shops that sell motor fuel in small quantities. Most of the population drive motorbikes which are used for every sort of transport imaginable. They have a tiny petrol tank, perhaps 4-5 liters, therefore a short range; they need frequent fill-ups.
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 08:46 +1100, Warin wrote: I've come across regular filling stations without a roof. Indeed, absolutely no reason a full service or pump based fuel supplier must have a roof. Usually an office (or shipping container) nearby but pumps out in the open is very common. David Somewhere in Scotland.. on a Sunday .. no one there but a credit card reader so I could get fuel. Others in Australia .. White Cliffs, Warburton, Docker River, Laverton, Carnegie Station and many others. The existence of a roof does not identify a 'regular filling station' to me. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:40 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: If the DIY kerosene stands were tagged as gas stations, there would be thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of gas stations across Japan that are not gas stations. So I agree we should use shop=fuel. Great input, up to the conclusion. shop=fuel and shop=gas likely too close to the gas station tagging, and would start poping up where it's least expected. I don't have a great suggestion for anything better. But I do suggest that the next mapper to come by may talk about firewood shops, and other types of fuel. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
Maybe amenity=fuel_stand? Then we can tag it onto existing shops (like a DIY store) or micromap it onto gas stations. As long as distribution is non-traditional, a shop selling fuel oil and cordwood for heating is fine with me (I have to read up on fuel= tagging ) I know there are shops and problem who sell stacked firewood as a fuel - or is that some other kind of shop? Javbw On Mar 20, 2015, at 1:30 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:40 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: If the DIY kerosene stands were tagged as gas stations, there would be thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of gas stations across Japan that are not gas stations. So I agree we should use shop=fuel. Great input, up to the conclusion. shop=fuel and shop=gas likely too close to the gas station tagging, and would start poping up where it's least expected. I don't have a great suggestion for anything better. But I do suggest that the next mapper to come by may talk about firewood shops, and other types of fuel. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
You could set all the fuel types to no (fuel:*=no), or add a new one (fuel:motorbike=yes). Or add motorbike=fuel. Except there isn't anything like motorbile fuel. Keeping it as amenity=fuel means all mapping tools and search tools continue to work. Which is exactly the problem. Now your lemon stand shows up as gas station... __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
It is expected that most renderers only look at the namespace tag, not at the attributes. How do we ensure that I don't end up at a bottle store while I expect a decent filling station. I am afraid that we pollute the amenity=fuel tag if we use it for fuel out of a drum as well? We really should use a different namespace tag. On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:46 PM Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-19 17:12 GMT+01:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: brand=none or no_brand=yes to proper mark the independence. some independent petrol stations are organized in associations and use these as their brand, see e.g. here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesverband_freier_Tankstellen not being part of a mineral oil corporation doesn't necessarily mean you don't use a brand name. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
In American ideom, gas is often a contraction of gasoline, which the British call petrol. Given differing terminology, and that such shops may sell propane and diesel fuel as well as gasoline/petrol, shop=fuel is probably the best solution. On March 19, 2015 8:21:36 AM CDT, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-19 13:46 GMT+01:00 Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com: I would prefer a different tag as I would not like the lemonade table to be rendered in the same way as a regular filling station. The tag shop=gas with subtag would be better. I like shop, but gas is an aggregate state of any element. Why not stick with fuel? Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
2015-03-19 13:46 GMT+01:00 Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com: I would prefer a different tag as I would not like the lemonade table to be rendered in the same way as a regular filling station. The tag shop=gas with subtag would be better. I like shop, but gas is an aggregate state of any element. Why not stick with fuel? Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 19.03.2015 20:31, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: However I can see nothing wrong with amenity=fuel, that is what it is in that part of the world . What turns amenity=fuel into a regular filling station is the building=roof. There is a huge difference. You'll notice that if you end up with your Diesel pickup in front of a amenity=fuel shelf out of Whiskey bottles filled with gasoline. The quantity is even too small to substantially fill up a car. Those pumps from a barrel are fine for a car. We used them recently on a trip near Doi Inthanon. Filling up 500 Baht of Diesel was no issue at all. There is operator=independent. I suggest this along with amenity=fuel for everything which is suitable for filling up a car or small truck/pickup. This is to differentiate from big brands like PTT which usually also come with a convenience store/coffee shop. Vending machines selling petrol for cars also fine. The problem are vending machines only serving for motorbikes and those bottle-shops. I would like to avoid them being amenity=fuel as it is hard to convince every western map-maker to query additional tags before deciding how to render them. That tag is already too established without extra tags. Stephan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On Thu Mar 19 12:46:02 2015 GMT, Jan van Bekkum wrote: I would prefer a different tag as I would not like the lemonade table to be rendered in the same way as a regular filling station. The tag shop=gas with subtag would be better. I would expect shop=gas to sell bottled gas for camping Gas as you have used it is American, the English is petrol. However I can see nothing wrong with amenity=fuel, that is what it is in that part of the world . What turns amenity=fuel into a regular filling station is the building=roof. Phil (trigpoint) On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: I think they should remain as amenity=fuel (I have visited Thailand and I know what you mean). Local people will know what to expect, but for clarity perhaps subtags should be used to add detail and differentiate between a filling station and a lemonade stand selling fuel. On Thursday, 19 March 2015, Lukas Sommer sommer...@gmail.com wrote: In Benin (Africa) these shops exist also – mostly only a table with some big bottles with fuel. 2015-03-19 9:18 GMT, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: I want to float an idea to get your reactions. Here in Thailand, and especially in rural areas, there are hundreds of shops that sell motor fuel in small quantities. Most of the population drive motorbikes which are used for every sort of transport imaginable. They have a tiny petrol tank, perhaps 4-5 liters, therefore a short range; they need frequent fill-ups. To meet this need local individuals have set up small sheds or kiosks from which they hand pump the small quantities needed. Some shops sell fuel by the liter bottle, often a whiskey bottle. Such shops are poorly marked, seldom have any signs indicating their presence and typically offer no other services. If you live in the area you will know where the fuel shop is, otherwise they're almost invisible At any rate, we're looking for a way to tag these fuel shops in such a way that they become visible in OSM (and on our GPS units), and will not be mistaken for a full size fuel service station. Current tagging practice is to tag them with amenity=fuel and a made up name, for example, Bike petrol or Drummed fuel. The people doing this are aware of the fact that such tagging isn't strictly correct, but they understandably want to be able to find those shops should they run out of fuel. One problem with this Thailand-centric approach, is that other data consumers are unaware of it. Another is that the informal names are multiplying rapidly and one mapper's drummed fuel is another's barreled fuel and another's Bike petrol. Where it will end is anyone's guess. I'm suggesting an addition to the values of the shop key: shop=fuel or perhaps shop=motor_fuel My goal is to standardize the tagging so that at some point these shops can be eventually rendered on Garmin compatible downloaded maps and hence made visible. I have done this for my custom Garmin maps and find it a real asset. Here is a photo of such a shop in my neighborhood: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ABarreled_fuel_shop.jpg -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com -- Lukas Sommer ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
But, it *is* a fuel amenity. It's down to the individual what picture they have in their mind. Additional tags would clarify this, but I don't think alternative tags are needed. You could set all the fuel types to no (fuel:*=no), or add a new one (fuel:motorbike=yes). Or add motorbike=fuel. Keeping it as amenity=fuel means all mapping tools and search tools continue to work. On Thursday, 19 March 2015, Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com wrote: I would prefer a different tag as I would not like the lemonade table to be rendered in the same way as a regular filling station. The tag shop=gas with subtag would be better. On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','erringt...@gmail.com'); wrote: I think they should remain as amenity=fuel (I have visited Thailand and I know what you mean). Local people will know what to expect, but for clarity perhaps subtags should be used to add detail and differentiate between a filling station and a lemonade stand selling fuel. On Thursday, 19 March 2015, Lukas Sommer sommer...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sommer...@gmail.com'); wrote: In Benin (Africa) these shops exist also – mostly only a table with some big bottles with fuel. 2015-03-19 9:18 GMT, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: I want to float an idea to get your reactions. Here in Thailand, and especially in rural areas, there are hundreds of shops that sell motor fuel in small quantities. Most of the population drive motorbikes which are used for every sort of transport imaginable. They have a tiny petrol tank, perhaps 4-5 liters, therefore a short range; they need frequent fill-ups. To meet this need local individuals have set up small sheds or kiosks from which they hand pump the small quantities needed. Some shops sell fuel by the liter bottle, often a whiskey bottle. Such shops are poorly marked, seldom have any signs indicating their presence and typically offer no other services. If you live in the area you will know where the fuel shop is, otherwise they're almost invisible At any rate, we're looking for a way to tag these fuel shops in such a way that they become visible in OSM (and on our GPS units), and will not be mistaken for a full size fuel service station. Current tagging practice is to tag them with amenity=fuel and a made up name, for example, Bike petrol or Drummed fuel. The people doing this are aware of the fact that such tagging isn't strictly correct, but they understandably want to be able to find those shops should they run out of fuel. One problem with this Thailand-centric approach, is that other data consumers are unaware of it. Another is that the informal names are multiplying rapidly and one mapper's drummed fuel is another's barreled fuel and another's Bike petrol. Where it will end is anyone's guess. I'm suggesting an addition to the values of the shop key: shop=fuel or perhaps shop=motor_fuel My goal is to standardize the tagging so that at some point these shops can be eventually rendered on Garmin compatible downloaded maps and hence made visible. I have done this for my custom Garmin maps and find it a real asset. Here is a photo of such a shop in my neighborhood: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ABarreled_fuel_shop.jpg -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com -- Lukas Sommer ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Tagging@openstreetmap.org'); https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
2015-03-19 17:51 GMT+01:00 Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com: It is expected that most renderers only look at the namespace tag, not at the attributes. How do we ensure that I don't end up at a bottle store while I expect a decent filling station. I am afraid that we pollute the amenity=fuel tag if we use it for fuel out of a drum as well? We really should use a different namespace tag. don't know why you wrote this in a reply to my email which you cited, but I agree with you, businesses which sell petrol in such small quantities that it is not suitable to fill the tank of your car should not be tagged with amenity=fuel IMHO, because otherwise they will be misstaken. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
amenity=bottled_motor_fuel phone= (because many have mobile phones) name= (name of individual proprietor) It has the same fuzzy border as supermarket vs. convenience. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
+1 The last thin I want is to count on a regular filling station and to and up at a bottle store with my 4WD. A that will happen if the type of store is an attribute, as map makers will show them the same. So please make it a different value for the tag, not fuel. On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 3:11 PM Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote: On 19.03.2015 20:31, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: However I can see nothing wrong with amenity=fuel, that is what it is in that part of the world . What turns amenity=fuel into a regular filling station is the building=roof. There is a huge difference. You'll notice that if you end up with your Diesel pickup in front of a amenity=fuel shelf out of Whiskey bottles filled with gasoline. The quantity is even too small to substantially fill up a car. Those pumps from a barrel are fine for a car. We used them recently on a trip near Doi Inthanon. Filling up 500 Baht of Diesel was no issue at all. There is operator=independent. I suggest this along with amenity=fuel for everything which is suitable for filling up a car or small truck/pickup. This is to differentiate from big brands like PTT which usually also come with a convenience store/coffee shop. Vending machines selling petrol for cars also fine. The problem are vending machines only serving for motorbikes and those bottle-shops. I would like to avoid them being amenity=fuel as it is hard to convince every western map-maker to query additional tags before deciding how to render them. That tag is already too established without extra tags. Stephan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
On 19 March 2015 at 09:18, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: Here in Thailand, and especially in rural areas, there are hundreds of shops that sell motor fuel in small quantities. amenity=fuel fuel=bottled -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
I see no problem with amenity or shop as long as the description on the wiki is well done. It is an amenity no doubt but we need proper subtags for the vehicles and the amount. shop=fuel was mentioned on a different thread about companies which fill up your private diesel or gas tanks for heating, so we always have to distinguish between small and big suppliers. operator=independent is similar to highway=living_street an easter egg. The operator is still some judicial person and we need brand=none or no_brand=yes to proper mark the independence. cu fly Am 19.03.2015 um 15:25 schrieb Jan van Bekkum: +1 The last thin I want is to count on a regular filling station and to and up at a bottle store with my 4WD. A that will happen if the type of store is an attribute, as map makers will show them the same. So please make it a different value for the tag, not fuel. On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 3:11 PM Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote: On 19.03.2015 20:31, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: However I can see nothing wrong with amenity=fuel, that is what it is in that part of the world . What turns amenity=fuel into a regular filling station is the building=roof. There is a huge difference. You'll notice that if you end up with your Diesel pickup in front of a amenity=fuel shelf out of Whiskey bottles filled with gasoline. The quantity is even too small to substantially fill up a car. Those pumps from a barrel are fine for a car. We used them recently on a trip near Doi Inthanon. Filling up 500 Baht of Diesel was no issue at all. There is operator=independent. I suggest this along with amenity=fuel for everything which is suitable for filling up a car or small truck/pickup. This is to differentiate from big brands like PTT which usually also come with a convenience store/coffee shop. Vending machines selling petrol for cars also fine. The problem are vending machines only serving for motorbikes and those bottle-shops. I would like to avoid them being amenity=fuel as it is hard to convince every western map-maker to query additional tags before deciding how to render them. That tag is already too established without extra tags. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops
2015-03-19 17:12 GMT+01:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: brand=none or no_brand=yes to proper mark the independence. some independent petrol stations are organized in associations and use these as their brand, see e.g. here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesverband_freier_Tankstellen not being part of a mineral oil corporation doesn't necessarily mean you don't use a brand name. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
