Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
On Mar 21, 2014, at 4:06 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-03-20 19:24 GMT+01:00 Kytömaa Lauri lauri.kyto...@aalto.fi: They (civil features) don't exist to produce income (even if they somewhat do) so the commerce part is missing, but they exist because the society has deemed that it's necessary to make the things that they do happen OK, this is interesting, and very broad. Would landuse=civic also include Concert-halls and theatres? Museums? But only if operated by the government or not for profit? Civic, to me, is something for the the public good, or to serve the public. Museums and concert halls, opera theaters, etc are usually for events for any citizen, as opposed to disneyland, which is for disney. Many art galleries are private and even if they are non=profit, you still have to pay to enter - so there is not much distinction needed between public and private, if it is for 3rd party events that anyone can go to see. Most host rotating events or shows that are an interest to the public. Generally. I think that civic is a good land choice, and it is a pretty broad category, but I do like your idea of using a subtag to break it up. Institutional would be the proper form of Institution. Landuse=institutional + institutional= - education - medical - civic_office - civic_assembly -civic_services - Judicial - civic_event_center might be a good additional one, for recreation centres, (mixed use buildings with pools and other leisure amenities), community centres, community halls, public sports centers, concert halls and event buildings, stadiums, etc - even museums. What about a server farm? It's probably not industrial, by common classification I think it is put into the tertiary sector, still it is clearly there to produce profit (like all the businesses in the tertiary sector, e.g. telcos, mass media, hospitality industry (hotels, ski resorts), etc.) so it won't merit the landuse=civic tag, and we are probably still missing at least another landuse tag for those, unless it's offices (commercial) or a waste dumping ground. Or would you see it included in commercial A server farm is almost always a for-profit commercial building. it's a building full of computers doing a big job for big corporations - jobs that make those companies money (they hope). Amazon, Microsoft, Google, and Apple all operate massive server farms, all doing for-profit work. Totally commercial, just not an office. physical waste is a byproduct of production, which is usually industrial - is this for mining, like a tailing pile? A waste yard in a industrial plant is just part of the landuse industrial, and the junk pile from the quarry is usually part of the quarry, same with the mine. Are there industrial dump sites that are separated from the source? if they were, wouldn't it always be landuse=industrial - unless it was in the business of accepting other people's garbage (and therefore a landfill?) Ski park is tourism. Hotels are commercial, maybe with commercial=hospitality subtag. The landuse tag is not about zoning, or in other words what you are allowed to build on a given plot, but rather what is the actual current usage (on the ground rule). Do not feel tempted to think that's the same, it often really isn't ;-) +1 landuse=leisure: -skiing park, zoo, theme park, or other tourist attraction. I think I understand what you are after, but I wouldn't put the word tourist attraction into the definition, because literally everything interesting can become a tourist attraction, I wouldn't see this as a class of objects on its own. A waterfall can be a tourist attraction, but this wouldn't make it a landuse=leisure, just like many churches are tourist attractions etc. There is a tourism=theme_park / and leisure=water_park Wouldn't a landuse=commercial commercial=tourism - be perfect for this kind of stuff? of course, the waterfall (tree, rock, whatever) , if notable, would be a point tourism=attraction in a park or forest, or a tag on an existing structure that is popular with tourists. Right? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
2014-03-18 17:31 GMT+01:00 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com: 4) interestingly, landuse=institution is not used at all, but landuse=institutional a bit (68 uses) yes, seems more consistent with the rest of the tags (e.g. we don't use landuse=commerce but commercial) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
johnw wrote: Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: there is a lot of stuff that isn't yet covered by the well introduced landuses, including: And somebody mentioned landuse=institutional at 68 uses. There's 332 cases of landuse=civil, which we have used for areas and plots used for state or municipality functions that don't fit in the industrial or commercial uses. They (civil features) don't exist to produce income (even if they somewhat do) so the commerce part is missing, but they exist because the society has deemed that it's necessary to make the things that they do happen; like kindergartens, hospitals, state ministeries, city offices, environmental agency offices, churches; and they don't exist to process or refine materials, or construct or physically maintain objects, like depots or the like (industrial). IMO normal commerial activies involve the assumption that the work people do there leads to something getting sold. The choise between civil and some other words is hidden somewhere in the wiki, but if i remember correctly, in the end civil was proposed by some native English speaker. until now, most of these simply got their specific tag to say what they are without any landuse. One can assume, that most areas tagged as leisure=* are silently implying landuse=leisure, and, say, amenity=school implies landuse=education - if that's a zoning category used in that country. If they're used to zoning them differently, the local consumers can map the tags like amenity=school to their zoning style. At least here the zoning plans include areas reserved for common functions; usually the zoning also allows commercial use, so if there's enough private entity interest, they don't have to rezone the plot. theatres and cinemas, restaurants and nightclubs On these, if on they have their own area, I'd go with retail or leisure. Of the mentioned cases, the following are imo clearly landuse=civil: -courthouses -Jails Prisons -parliaments and city counsels (and the levels in between) as well as supranational decision making -hospitals and clinics (here most of the private ones are inside a otherwise commercial building, so they wouldn't count) -public administration (with and without public access) -public services like police, fire, , border patrol, immigration, park ranger stations, customs areas -universities and schools and colleges landuse=Industrial -plow stations landuse=leisure: -skiing park, zoo, theme park, or other tourist attraction. -sports related areas Naturally, one could add the subtags as proposed with landuse=institutional. -- alv ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
2014-03-20 19:24 GMT+01:00 Kytömaa Lauri lauri.kyto...@aalto.fi: And somebody mentioned landuse=institutional at 68 uses. There's 332 cases of landuse=civil, which we have used for areas and plots used for state or municipality functions that don't fit in the industrial or commercial uses. They (civil features) don't exist to produce income (even if they somewhat do) so the commerce part is missing, but they exist because the society has deemed that it's necessary to make the things that they do happen; like kindergartens, hospitals, state ministeries, city offices, environmental agency offices, churches; and they don't exist to process or refine materials, or construct or physically maintain objects, like depots or the like (industrial). IMO normal commerial activies involve the assumption that the work people do there leads to something getting sold. OK, this is interesting, and very broad. Btw., the only docu I have found in the wiki for building=civic https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dcivic is a little bit strange, because it really promotes assigning the same building type to town halls, libraries and public swimming pools ;-) Would landuse=civic also include Concert-halls and theatres? Museums? But only if operated by the government or not for profit? Would you like to put up a proposal to discuss this and get some uniform docu when to use the tag and when not? What about a server farm? It's probably not industrial, by common classification I think it is put into the tertiary sector, still it is clearly there to produce profit (like all the businesses in the tertiary sector, e.g. telcos, mass media, hospitality industry (hotels, ski resorts), etc.) so it won't merit the landuse=civic tag, and we are probably still missing at least another landuse tag for those, unless it's offices (commercial) or a waste dumping ground. Or would you see it included in commercial? ...if that's a zoning category used in that country... it shouldn't matter if and how zoning is established in the country or region. We should have the same tagging scheme on a global level (IMHO). The landuse tag is not about zoning, or in other words what you are allowed to build on a given plot, but rather what is the actual current usage (on the ground rule). Do not feel tempted to think that's the same, it often really isn't ;-) landuse=leisure: -skiing park, zoo, theme park, or other tourist attraction. I think I understand what you are after, but I wouldn't put the word tourist attraction into the definition, because literally everything interesting can become a tourist attraction, I wouldn't see this as a class of objects on its own. A waterfall can be a tourist attraction, but this wouldn't make it a landuse=leisure, just like many churches are tourist attractions etc. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
On Mar 17, 2014, at 10:49 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-03-16 23:11 GMT+01:00 Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com: I'd like to clarify what I said before that landuse=civic_admin would be useful. It would be useful for tagging the only the compounds where government offices are located (townhall, courthouse, etc.). I am not suggesting that schools and hospitals would use the same landuse=civic_admin tag. +1, I agree that we COULD have some new landuse values, there is a lot of stuff that isn't yet covered by the well introduced landuses, including: This is a great post of yours. It really got me thinking about solving this, and this civic_admin stuff. Just thinking while typing here. in hindsight, landuse=institution is really useful with a subtag after typing all this. About half of these tags can be covered with landuse=institution. churches and other religion related areas landuse=institution + institution= religion (or straight landuse=religion) there are a lot of religious areas in Japan that have a really big area with a lot of little, unnamed buildings, gardens, event areas, and other stuff to go with the main shrines. Moreover, the shrines themselves have separate names - but the complex has it's own big famous name as well (Ex: Asakusa in Tokyo) - so a separate landuse for religion is a great tag. Also: we need to update the icons for the religions in -carto as well (there is no Japanese buddhist symbol, for example, and the shinto one is overly detailed compared to the others). theatres and cinemas, restaurants and nightclubs landuse=retail amenity=restaurant/cinema/discotek (sp) *or* landuse=entertainment + entertainment=[type]. also mixes into institution=arts_centre. To me the line is live people performance and commerical art (cinema) is in entertainment, and exibition of cultural art (art gallery/ museum) is in institution, but I dunno. This overlaps into a lot of different tagging systems. Hopefully subtags can unify it without the need for retagging. This is a messy problem. mixed use (like you'll find for instance in the centre of the typical european city) Shops downstairs, residential upstairs, right? landuse=urban_mixed_use (as opposed to a mixed use business park [retail+commercial]) courthouses Jails Prisons too? landuse=institution + institution=judicial The police side is mentioned below. parliaments and city counsels (and the levels in between) as well as supranational decision making Landuse=institution + institution=civic_assembly it could cover everything from a city council to the UN building. institutions museums Landuse=institution + institution=museum / gallery / arts_centre *or* tourism=museum or proposed =art gallery / amenity=arts_centre ... hospitals and clinics landuse=institution + institution=medical (or, of course Landuse=medical), as opposed to hospital. would cover chiropractic clinics, pharmacies, dentists, orthodontists, maybe even veterinary. existing amenity= or shop= would would work fine, or use medical= subtag. using the institution here here seems weak though. public administration (with and without public access) landuse=institution + institution=civic_office this would solve all my civic_admin troubles. could cover the white house down to townhalls and all the depts in between. It's brother would be landuse=institution institution=civic_service(s)?+ existing amenity of choice, public services like police, fire, plow stations, (ambulance 'station' too?) border patrol, immigration, park ranger stations, customs areas, the fruit and vegetable check areas on the highways between states (in the US), Some of these are privately operated, but it is for the public good. universities and schools and colleges landuse=institution + institution=education (or straight Landuse=education). covers just about everything, from a preschool to driving school to flight school to Jukus (private tutoring schools - cram schools like kumon or EFL schools) - where we really wouldn't want it tagged as amenity=school (I don't think). education=[type] also a possibility. amenity=school, to me, always is k-12. College or university is higher ed, the remainder could fall into this tag. hotels etc. landuse=hospitality + hospitality=[type] or the amenity=[type], like beach_resort (or the missing ski_resort) this could cover anything from a hostel or motel to casino or disneyland's hotel area ringing the parks. There is a lot of hospitality things that are covered, but a few glaring omissions exist in amenity, like how to tag a skiing park - there is nothing to denote the actual landuse of the ski resort area (like there would be for a zoo, theme park, or other tourist attraction). Hospitality is the official name for the industry of hotels and such, so it seems a good fit. sports related areas landuse=recreation?
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
It might be good to see if any of these ideas are in use, despite lack of documentation. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/landuse A couple potentially useful tags I noticed scanning through the list of landuse=* values were 1) landuse=religious has 1100 uses 2) landuse=school and landuse=education both have hundreds of uses--might be good to recommend one or the other? 3) landuse=leisure is used more often than landuse=recreation right now (477 v. 62) 4) interestingly, landuse=institution is not used at all, but landuse=institutional a bit (68 uses) Among the other landuse=* values, there might be some ideas to pick up on, or others which we'd like to avoid. Cheers, Brad On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 3:38 AM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On Mar 17, 2014, at 10:49 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-03-16 23:11 GMT+01:00 Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com: I'd like to clarify what I said before that landuse=civic_admin would be useful. It would be useful for tagging the only the compounds where government offices are located (townhall, courthouse, etc.). I am not suggesting that schools and hospitals would use the same landuse=civic_admin tag. +1, I agree that we COULD have some new landuse values, there is a lot of stuff that isn't yet covered by the well introduced landuses, including: This is a great post of yours. It really got me thinking about solving this, and this civic_admin stuff. Just thinking while typing here. in hindsight, landuse=institution is really useful with a subtag after typing all this. About half of these tags can be covered with landuse=institution. churches and other religion related areas landuse=institution + institution= religion (or straight landuse=religion) there are a lot of religious areas in Japan that have a really big area with a lot of little, unnamed buildings, gardens, event areas, and other stuff to go with the main shrines. Moreover, the shrines themselves have separate names - but the complex has it's own big famous name as well (Ex: Asakusa in Tokyo) - so a separate landuse for religion is a great tag. Also: we need to update the icons for the religions in -carto as well (there is no Japanese buddhist symbol, for example, and the shinto one is overly detailed compared to the others). theatres and cinemas, restaurants and nightclubs landuse=retail amenity=restaurant/cinema/discotek (sp) *or* landuse=entertainment + entertainment=[type]. also mixes into institution=arts_centre. To me the line is live people performance and commerical art (cinema) is in entertainment, and exibition of cultural art (art gallery/ museum) is in institution, but I dunno. This overlaps into a lot of different tagging systems. Hopefully subtags can unify it without the need for retagging. This is a messy problem. mixed use (like you'll find for instance in the centre of the typical european city) Shops downstairs, residential upstairs, right? landuse=urban_mixed_use (as opposed to a mixed use business park [retail+commercial]) courthouses Jails Prisons too? landuse=institution + institution=judicial The police side is mentioned below. parliaments and city counsels (and the levels in between) as well as supranational decision making Landuse=institution + institution=civic_assembly it could cover everything from a city council to the UN building. institutions museums Landuse=institution + institution=museum / gallery / arts_centre *or* tourism=museum or proposed =art gallery / amenity=arts_centre ... hospitals and clinics landuse=institution + institution=medical (or, of course Landuse=medical), as opposed to hospital. would cover chiropractic clinics, pharmacies, dentists, orthodontists, maybe even veterinary. existing amenity= or shop= would would work fine, or use medical= subtag. using the institution here here seems weak though. public administration (with and without public access) landuse=institution + institution=civic_office this would solve all my civic_admin troubles. could cover the white house down to townhalls and all the depts in between. It's brother would be landuse=institution institution=civic_service(s)?+ existing amenity of choice, public services like police, fire, plow stations, (ambulance 'station' too?) border patrol, immigration, park ranger stations, customs areas, the fruit and vegetable check areas on the highways between states (in the US), Some of these are privately operated, but it is for the public good. universities and schools and colleges landuse=institution + institution=education (or straight Landuse=education). covers just about everything, from a preschool to driving school to flight school to Jukus (private tutoring schools - cram schools like kumon or EFL schools) - where we really wouldn't want it tagged as amenity=school (I don't think). education=[type] also a possibility.
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
Martin - I realized that somewhere, I got confused about landuse=retail/residential/ etc and amenity=school I started thinking there was landuse=school landuse=hospital when there isn't. So my previous comments probably made no sense. I'm really sorry about that. You are exactly right suggesting amenity=townhall for single buildings or the landuse for the townhall by itself. So using amenity=townhall for a townhall building is right. I guess there are other kinds of offices, and amenity=DMV or amenity=pension_office or whatnot can be discussed for other civic buildings later. The amenity tag wiki page has a bunch of civic buildings crammed under other, so maybe there is a need for a few more amenity tags and a civic section on the wiki. However, when dealing with a building complex, like a business park or a shopping mall, The buildings themselves get the proper names and tags, and the area gets a landuse tag for a retail/residential/commercial/etc. But the amenity=townhall tag doesn't fit well for a complex with many different buildings, when only one is the townhall. You have suggested landuse=commerical. But one of the other commenters talked about this same situation, with his town using institutional as a landuse description. This sounds a lot like the landuse=civic_admin I was suggesting. So, now that I understand that the building type should be an amenity=, and the basic amenity tag can also show landuse, I will start to think about a few new amenity=tags for civic buildings. That picture I showed you with the 5 buildings is, in one complex,is the state office building (full of all the different depts), the old state office building State assembly building, and and the 5th one is the police HQ, and a state community hall across the street. I want a landuse to show it isn't strictly a townhall. But for building complexes that include the townhall, would you still default to commerical? isn't there a need for a tag like landuse=institutional or something? a broad landuse for these different civic amenities when mixed together? Or is the definition of townhall already that broad? Javbw PS: thanks for putting up with my comments and questions, especially when I am mistaken. On Mar 16, 2014, at 5:45 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 16/mar/2014 um 02:20 schrieb johnw jo...@mac.com: I am looking for a tag to define the area the townhall building sits on what about amenity=townhall ? That's how we do it for schools, universities etc. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
2014-03-16 23:11 GMT+01:00 Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com: I'd like to clarify what I said before that landuse=civic_admin would be useful. It would be useful for tagging the only the compounds where government offices are located (townhall, courthouse, etc.). I am not suggesting that schools and hospitals would use the same landuse=civic_admin tag. +1, I agree that we COULD have some new landuse values, there is a lot of stuff that isn't yet covered by the well introduced landuses, including: churches and other religion related areas museums theatres and cinemas, restaurants and nightclubs mixed use (like you'll find for instance in the centre of the typical european city) courthouses parliaments and city counsels (and the levels in between) as well as supranational decision making institutions hospitals and clinics public administration (with and without public access) universities and schools and colleges hotels etc. sports related areas water supply and waste water treatment electricity production and distribution gas ... ... until now, most of these simply got their specific tag to say what they are without any landuse. We will have to decide if this is sufficient or if and for what we'd like to have additional landuse values. What should IMHO not be done is define something with the word administration in it for stuff that isn't administration (courts, parliaments and counsels, senates, etc.). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
Am 17/mar/2014 um 11:51 schrieb johnw jo...@mac.com: So, now that I understand that the building type should be an amenity=, and the basic amenity tag can also show landuse, I will start to think about a few new amenity=tags for civic buildings. actually the building type goes into building, it is the functions that go into amenity. This might sound a little bit like splitting hairs (and there might often be overlap), but I think it is really important to get this clear. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
Am 17/mar/2014 um 11:51 schrieb johnw jo...@mac.com: But for building complexes that include the townhall, would you still default to commerical? isn't there a need for a tag like landuse=institutional or something? well, commercial was suggested for areas with offices on them, out of the existing landuses, IMHO there would indeed be space for a new institutional landuse value. Alternatively it could also be achieved by sub tagging (e.g. add commercial = public_administration), an option that could also be used to refine other landuses without redefining the existing values or adding new ones. E.g. industrial could be amended (light/heavy), residential could (dense / sparse, only residential or also other stuff like shops, restaurants, petrol stations, etc) and so on. this really requires further thought, until now it is not clear from the scheme how to do it more consistently, some landuses are very broad (commercial residential industrial), other are very specific (brownfield for instance) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
Am 16/mar/2014 um 02:20 schrieb johnw jo...@mac.com: I am looking for a tag to define the area the townhall building sits on what about amenity=townhall ? That's how we do it for schools, universities etc. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
What about for the area where the town hall, city administration buildings (offices for building and safety, parks and recreation, etc.), public safety (police and fire headquarters) and a county court building are located in my city. They are all on one landscaped area with buildings scattered around. And it definitely looks different than a typical office park. The individual buildings are tagged as appropriate but the land use is neither commercial, industrial nor residential. -Tod On Mar 16, 2014, at 1:45 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am 16/mar/2014 um 02:20 schrieb johnw jo...@mac.com: I am looking for a tag to define the area the townhall building sits on what about amenity=townhall ? That's how we do it for schools, universities etc. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 11:42 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: They all sound much like offices (landuse=commercial) to me. Ownership has nothing to do with land use. In this case, the city council happen to be the users of the property, but if they need to downsize for whatever reason and a particular building gets a new tenant, will the land use change? I wouldn't have thought so. Well, in my country, these are classified as a different landuse and not commercial. Please see this land use map as an example: http://mandaluyong.gov.ph/img/profile/map9.gif Hospitals, schools, universities, and civic/admin facilities (such as municipal or village townhalls) are classed as institutional landuse. So for my country, landuse=civic_admin (or similar) would make sense. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
At least in the USA, courthouses generally contain other types of government offices in addition to courtrooms and related judicial offices, particularly county courthouses. In some less-populated areas, the courthouse may be the only governmental building in the jurisdiction. On March 15, 2014 11:09:20 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 14/mar/2014 um 00:54 schrieb johnw jo...@mac.com: I'm very interested to hear people's opinion on landuse=civic_admin It would be a landuse for townhalls and other capital buildings, Federal Buildings, DMV, courthouses, and other basic civic administrative offices where it is clearly a government building. maybe this is a language or cultural problem, but I'd consider neither courthouses nor government buildings administration. Courthouses serve the Judiciary and administration is together with government the executive branch. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
Interesting! That is more generic than simply civic_admin - one would not expect the primary land use of a school or a hospital to be administration. When/to whom is this classification significant? Colin On 2014-03-16 19:49, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 11:42 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: They all sound much like offices (landuse=commercial) to me. Ownership has nothing to do with land use. In this case, the city council happen to be the users of the property, but if they need to downsize for whatever reason and a particular building gets a new tenant, will the land use change? I wouldn't have thought so. Well, in my country, these are classified as a different landuse and not commercial. Please see this land use map as an example: http://mandaluyong.gov.ph/img/profile/map9.gif [2] Hospitals, schools, universities, and civic/admin facilities (such as municipal or village townhalls) are classed as institutional landuse. So for my country, landuse=civic_admin (or similar) would make sense. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [2] http://mandaluyong.gov.ph/img/profile/map9.gif ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
I'd like to clarify what I said before that landuse=civic_admin would be useful. It would be useful for tagging the only the compounds where government offices are located (townhall, courthouse, etc.). I am not suggesting that schools and hospitals would use the same landuse=civic_admin tag. Anyway, the institutional landuse itself is useful for assessing real property taxes as institutional entities typically are tax-exempt. Thus the expected tax base is the residential + commercial + industrial land area. Also, the institutional landuse may be useful for planning purposes. You typically would not want schools and hospitals located near industrial areas. On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 3:41 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Interesting! That is more generic than simply civic_admin - one would not expect the primary land use of a school or a hospital to be administration. When/to whom is this classification significant? Colin On 2014-03-16 19:49, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 11:42 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nlwrote: They all sound much like offices (landuse=commercial) to me. Ownership has nothing to do with land use. In this case, the city council happen to be the users of the property, but if they need to downsize for whatever reason and a particular building gets a new tenant, will the land use change? I wouldn't have thought so. Well, in my country, these are classified as a different landuse and not commercial. Please see this land use map as an example: http://mandaluyong.gov.ph/img/profile/map9.gif Hospitals, schools, universities, and civic/admin facilities (such as municipal or village townhalls) are classed as institutional landuse. So for my country, landuse=civic_admin (or similar) would make sense. ___ Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
Civil administration is surely hardly a land use. A council office is no different to any other office. I suggest looking at planning zones and their designations as a reference. Typically classifications like residential, retail, commercial, industrial and agricultural are seen, and changing the use of a parcel of land from one classification to another is a serious process which doesn't happen very frequently (in the big scheme of things). I don't expect so see the local plans define a particular plot as civil administration as the specific land use will be covered by one of the other classifications. The council can't just knock down a council office building or a courthouse and replace it with a highways yard in the middle of a city centre because they are all the same land use. Colin On 2014-03-15 17:09, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am 14/mar/2014 um 00:54 schrieb johnw jo...@mac.com: I'm very interested to hear people's opinion on landuse=civic_admin It would be a landuse for townhalls and other capital buildings, Federal Buildings, DMV, courthouses, and other basic civic administrative offices where it is clearly a government building. maybe this is a language or cultural problem, but I'd consider neither courthouses nor government buildings administration. Courthouses serve the Judiciary and administration is together with government the executive branch. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
On Mar 16, 2014, at 1:09 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I'd consider neither courthouses nor government buildings administration. Federal buildings in the US are the equivalent to branch offices of the US government - basically national hall - they are very far apart, usually 1-3 per state. They have the offices needed for passports and visas (immigration), and other federal offices, like state offices or city offices. I can see how courthouses are the odd man out - good point on executive vs judicial, but the judges are civil servants. they just work in the judicial branch. The President of the United States is a civil servant if you work for the government in an non-military position, you are a public worker or a civil servant, hence the civic in civic_admin. Administration, to me, is offices that you visit because they are the area's authority on the matter, or do the civil job that that their department is in charge of. That might be a national authority or a local one. In Japan, The City offices are huge compared to their american ones. Most of the federal services are administered via city halls and regional buildings. As the small villages have dwindled in population, these former cities have been merged into the larger ones, their former city hall becoming a branch office for the larger city's offices. The prefectural office - often by far the tallest and biggest building in the prefecture, is the next level of offices. These are the federal buildings of Japan, they are about 2 hours apart by car. The national buildings are, of course, in Tokyo. http://www.gtia.jp/kokusai/english/img/traveling/201012_4.jpg The 5 buildings in that picture are all government office buildings in Gunma. This is giant for a population of 2 million people, especially considering there are dozens of local city offices as well. This is because the bureaucracy of Japan is thick and a part of of your life on a monthly basis. On Mar 16, 2014, at 1:53 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Civil administration is surely hardly a land use. As opposed to meadow? Salt pond? Village green? Perhaps I am missing something. [K-12] School is a landuse, right? Hospital is a landuse. College is a landuse. If you want to talk zoning laws and all that, yea. City hall is on public land and all, and it really doesn't have a usage limitation attached to it like residential or Industrial. But landuse doesn't seem to care about that. It seems to be a way to separate the land into landuses for mapping differentiation in OSM. OSM is mapping what exists, not the zoning for what it could be. (as I understand it). ~ I was told that commercial is the proper landuse for city hall, and we treat it like an office building. My proposal is that it isn't a commercial landuse - it's something different. That it should be differentiated from the other basic landuses, as school or hospital is. In some countries, the location of city hall is as important as knowing where the hospital or university is - you visit it much more often than a hospital anyways. landuse seems to be the appropriate tag, because it is used to outline the land that the buildings sit on. And in OSM, those landsues are colored to denote use. I am looking for a tag to define the area the townhall building sits on, or other similarly related offices that are neither commercial, industrial, or residential. Considering the plethora of landuse tags, I assume there is room for something like civic_admin. How far does it need to be narrowed, or is there another category of area tags that can be used to differentiate these place's area that I don't know about? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin
+1 to define landuse=civic_admin. It is very helpful to represent the outline when using type=site relation. Especially for more than 2 amenities shares 1 landuse. e.g. in the case of 2 schools (junior high high school) is in 1 landuse, in Japan. I think they must be represent as type=site relation, but currently the outline of the amenity is amenity=school. In fact, the number of amenities is 2. Which is the name for outline school? Junior high? High school? I think landuse=civic_admin could resolve this situation. (site relation of node amenity=school outline landuse=civic_admin) Cheers. 2014-03-14 8:54 GMT+09:00 johnw jo...@mac.com: I'm very interested to hear people's opinion on landuse=civic_admin It would be a landuse for townhalls and other capital buildings, Federal Buildings, DMV, courthouses, and other basic civic administrative offices where it is clearly a government building. This is to have a matching landuse to go with building=civic or amenity=townhall, and to differentiate basic townhall complexes from office building complexes in OSM. Some countries do not require a visit to a federal building more than once every couple years (DMV, passport renewal), while some countries require visiting their local and regional government offices more than once a month for various paperwork duties and centralized government duties. I was having a good discussion with martin about this, and he feels we don't need a landuse=civic or even a building=civic. I'd like to hear other opinions, as well as his reply to this narrowing of civic to civic_admin: - Is it narrow enough in scope now, or does the idea of ownership still nix it for you? - What would be the most minimal solution for differentiating the landuses for these buildings - make a straight landuse=townhall for townhalls only, or is the whole idea of differentiation bad to you? Javbw Javbw Martin IMHO we do indeed have no need for building=public / civic. if I were back in San Deigo, I might agree with that, but having come to Japan, there is a definite and immediately recognizable distinction of city buildings, *and* they are used quite heavily. There is a known difference and a corresponding need for these facilities - at least the major buildings - to be treated above a standard office building. We recognize this with the amenity=townhall tag, and someone created building=civic for a reason, and I feel there should be a landuse to denote the complex's land differently than the standard commercial use building. Both can be considered vague building types, but on a very generic level, I'd encourage everyone to use more specific building tags. generically, yea they are both office buildings. I'm concerned primarily with the landuse to go with townhall complexes and other admin buildings. It is also not clear from building=public what exactly this indicates (publicly owned and used by a public entity but not generally accessible, publicly owned and open to the general public, privately owned but publicly operated and publicly accessible or even not, publicly owned and privately used). If we start getting into building=public, then yes, there is a lot of ambiguity, which is why I took your suggestion and narrowed it to landuse=public_admin, i'll drop the others from this point forward. For the vast majority of the *administration* buildings, either in California or Japan (and I imagine elsewhere =] ), there is absolutely no ambiguity. Everyone knows the building types I listed : public_admin would the city halls, courthouses, state, and capital buildings, embassies, etc. This is the most important one, IMO. (along with US federal buildings) are definitely government operated. There is zero ambiguity with those. Maybe public is a bad word. how about landuse=civic_admin? Generally I would not deduct any kind of ownership from the building type, and neither from the landuse, and not even from access-tags ;-) You're right - those tags don't really show ownership. And I don't really care about ownership either - mostly purpose. We separate schools because we recognize that is a useful landuse to differentiate - like all the myriad of landuses - public or private, a park is a park, and a school is a school. But for this particular one (cuvic_admin), it is pretty obvious that it is a government operated building. I'm stating that there is a need for a landuse to show purpose for these heavily trafficked (known) civic buildings, just as we denote the others. They are more than an office building, just as a university is more than an office building complex with meeting rooms. The above is the main point of what I'm trying to say. If we were to tag ownership (problematic, might have privacy implications, could be hard to verify with publicly accessible sources) a dedicated new tag should be used, e.g. proprietor, owner,
