Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[John Willis]

> On Nov 22, 2015, at 11:18 AM, John Eldredge  wrote:
> 
> If you have signals facing each of the directions at an intersection, will 
> all of the signals at that intersection share the same name, or are they 
> named separately, so that an intersection where two roads cross would have 
> four different signal names?

I was under the impression that that the names would be the same in all 
directions (as the signal set itself is named), as all the signals I have seen 
and surveyed all are this way.  Tomoya showed me that towns in Hokkaido (and 
only in Hokkaido, it seems) have names based on what "grid segment" is being 
entered, which means each signal in the set have a unique name (4 signals in a 
simple junction).

The solution that other map makers have used- Google, yahoo, Mapion, etc - is 
to list the values as a single label for the entire junction, so it is in line 
with the rest of Japan and compatible with routing software that expects the 
signals to have a single name.  

I did a quick check across Japanese urban centers, And this issue does not 
affect (I estimate) ~99% of signals in Japan, and not present at all outside 
Hokkaido (AFAIK). 

Sapporo and surrounding cities probably have several hundred signal sets that 
are affected by this. 

I wrote this information up in a previous post with a little more detail on the 
issue. 

Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[John Eldredge]

If you have signals facing each of the directions at an intersection, will 
all of the signals at that intersection share the same name, or are they 
named separately, so that an intersection where two roads cross would have 
four different signal names?


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On November 13, 2015 5:49:53 AM johnw  wrote:


On Nov 13, 2015, at 7:46 PM, tomoya muramoto  wrote:



However officially (legally) the name is "place" name. It causes some problems.


I understood it to be the signals were named after the places - not the 
places themselves.And only *sometimes* named for places.


Places are named with place=*, and it is well documented how to name any 
location in Japan, including the 小字 / 字 / 丁 / 丁目 places with 
place=neighbourhood


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Japan_tagging#Places

These are signal names, and often they are named for buildings or other 
locations, not the actual place=neighbourhood places.


A Signal in my city is named, translated, “ Above Kiryu Train Station” 桐生駅前

https://www.google.co.jp/maps/@36.4115134,139.3328665,18.59z 



The coffee shop on the corner is  Miyamae-cho 2丁 8-5   =>   桐生駅前 is not 
part of it’s address - it is just the name of that signal.


They are all just named traffic signals.


The examples you give are reasons why they are signal names, and not 
junction or place names.



Small problem: No junction
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1114945003 

The signals are named for the building complex (just like lights are often 
named for train stations).


The light is just for the crosswalk.  Naming the signal controlling the 
crosswalk should not be an issue.


The crosswalk itself (road x crosswalk could be considered a junction too.



Severe problem: Different names



I don't have any idea to map them correctly.



wow! that is interesting! I’ve never seen that before.

it looks like they are signs for the block you are entering. so depending 
on your direction of travel, you see a different block name.


<=== west6 ooo   west5  west5ooo   west 4 west4   
ooowest 3 ==>


but it overlaps in in both directions. all the lights in that area are that 
way.


wow!  All of Sapporo is that way!

Google does it with a single named signal with the lowest and highest values

https://www.google.co.jp/maps/@43.0923,141.3410069,17.55z 



N26 W6
N27 W5


Yahoo Too
http://maps.loco.yahoo.co.jp/maps?type=scroll&datum=wgs&mode=map&pointer=off&lat=35.4573089010882&lon=139.619295364418&z=19 



N26 W6 • N27 W5

Mapion as well

http://www.mapion.co.jp/m2/42.99001590102444,141.35332833963417,15

N27 W5  • N26 W6

For people driving, each signal should have it’s own name - but it looks 
like the map companies have standardized on this layout for naming the set 
of signals.


This would be a big problem if we were naming junctions, but we are naming 
signals, so we can give each of the signals a name -


but it is very difficult to get a single icon to render (one set of 
signals) but have all 4 names shown. I suppose this is why everyone chose 
the solution they did.


Perhaps we can have the signal members in a group get their own name for 
routing purposes, but that might be overkill. We since this is such an odd 
thing, baybe we should follow the data conventions of the other maps and 
use named pairs for each signal name.


I will now go and look at some other large cities to see if they have this 
weird grid issue as well. I have never seen this before now.



Javbw




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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[johnw]

> On Nov 13, 2015, at 7:46 PM, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> 
> Severe problem: Different names


I did a quick look around, and this signal-grid naming issue seems to be pretty 
big, but only in Hokkaido. I never noticed this, as I have not been to Hokkaido 
yet.  several cities up there (Sapporo, Chitose, Obihiro, etc). all have this 
issue: they use different names on each signal of the intersection signals to 
show what grid section you are entering, which means people going through the 
junction in different directions see different signal names.   There are 
probably several hundred signal sets in Hokkaido that are named in this manner 
(a ton of individual signals). 

Checking out cities on the Main Island Honshu, as well as Shikoku, Kyushu, and 
Okinawa all don’t seem to have this grid issue. I couldn’t find one outside 
Hokkaido. 


I spent 20 seconds in each city, (And I have visited 17 of them)  looking over 
a high zoom level for these odd signal names, but I didn’t see any.  Maybe 
there is a few oddly named signals in the following cities, but it seems like 
they use a standard “one name, one set of signals” idea for the named signals 
in their downtown areas. 

 This list covers all of the larger cities in Japan, besides Sapporo. 

So I’m guessing this grid issue is related to Hokkaido’s long time territory 
(-do) status (though that is just a guess), and not really an issue in the rest 
of Japan.


But since there are several thousand individually named signals in hundreds of 
sets, then we need to:

- come up with a solution that can handle this issue (1 icon, 4 labels) 

or

 - follow the route of google/Zenrin/Mapion/Yahoo and make a single name with 
the different high/low grid values for the set (1 icon, 1 label). 

Javbw




- Aomori
- Morioka
- Akita
- Sendai
- Ishinomaki
- Yamagata
- Fukushima
- Mito
- Nagano
- Matsumoto
- Toyama
- Maebashi / Takasaki
- Saitama
- Tokyo
- Chiba
- Hamamatsu
- Nagoya
- Osaka
- Kyoto
- Okayama
- Tokushima
- Kochi
- Hiroshima
- Kitakyushu
- Kumamoto
- Kagoshima
- Nagasaki
- Naha

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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[johnw]

> On Nov 13, 2015, at 7:46 PM, tomoya muramoto  wrote:

> However officially (legally) the name is "place" name. It causes some 
> problems.

I understood it to be the signals were named after the places - not the places 
themselves.And only *sometimes* named for places. 

Places are named with place=*, and it is well documented how to name any 
location in Japan, including the 小字 / 字 / 丁 / 丁目 places with 
place=neighbourhood 

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Japan_tagging#Places

These are signal names, and often they are named for buildings or other 
locations, not the actual place=neighbourhood places. 

A Signal in my city is named, translated, “ Above Kiryu Train Station” 桐生駅前

https://www.google.co.jp/maps/@36.4115134,139.3328665,18.59z 


The coffee shop on the corner is  Miyamae-cho 2丁 8-5   =>   桐生駅前 is not part of 
it’s address - it is just the name of that signal. 

They are all just named traffic signals. 


The examples you give are reasons why they are signal names, and not junction 
or place names.

> Small problem: No junction
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1114945003 
> 
The signals are named for the building complex (just like lights are often 
named for train stations). 

The light is just for the crosswalk.  Naming the signal controlling the 
crosswalk should not be an issue. 

The crosswalk itself (road x crosswalk could be considered a junction too. 


> Severe problem: Different names

> I don't have any idea to map them correctly.


wow! that is interesting! I’ve never seen that before. 

it looks like they are signs for the block you are entering. so depending on 
your direction of travel, you see a different block name. 

<=== west6 ooo   west5  west5ooo   west 4 west4   ooo   
 west 3 ==>

but it overlaps in in both directions. all the lights in that area are that 
way. 

wow!  All of Sapporo is that way! 

Google does it with a single named signal with the lowest and highest values 

https://www.google.co.jp/maps/@43.0923,141.3410069,17.55z 
 

N26 W6
N27 W5 


Yahoo Too
http://maps.loco.yahoo.co.jp/maps?type=scroll&datum=wgs&mode=map&pointer=off&lat=35.4573089010882&lon=139.619295364418&z=19
 


N26 W6 • N27 W5 

Mapion as well

http://www.mapion.co.jp/m2/42.99001590102444,141.35332833963417,15

N27 W5  • N26 W6

For people driving, each signal should have it’s own name - but it looks like 
the map companies have standardized on this layout for naming the set of 
signals.  

This would be a big problem if we were naming junctions, but we are naming 
signals, so we can give each of the signals a name - 

but it is very difficult to get a single icon to render (one set of signals) 
but have all 4 names shown. I suppose this is why everyone chose the solution 
they did. 

Perhaps we can have the signal members in a group get their own name for 
routing purposes, but that might be overkill. We since this is such an odd 
thing, baybe we should follow the data conventions of the other maps and use 
named pairs for each signal name.

I will now go and look at some other large cities to see if they have this 
weird grid issue as well. I have never seen this before now. 


Javbw

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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[tomoya muramoto]

In Japan, a name plate is attached to a traffic signal, but the name is
widely recognized as "junction" name. So I think it's reasonable to tag it
as a junction.

However officially (legally) the name is "place" name. It causes some
problems.

Small problem: No junction
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1114945003
There is traffic signal with name and zebra zone, but no junction here. Is
it a junction name or a signal name?
(I think it can be treated as a junction name to keep consistency)

Severe problem: Different names
https://www.google.co.jp/maps/@43.0932299,141.3406141,3a,75y,36.3h,85.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXMdPZfgudt0fNJT3iY-l2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
It's not so big junction. There are four physical traffic signals.
However each name of traffic signals are different, 北27西6, 北27西5, 北26西5,
北26西6(北=North, 西=West). Because they are "city block" name.
I don't have any idea to map them correctly.

muramoto


2015-11-13 10:45 GMT+09:00 John Willis :

>
>
>
>
> Javbw
> > On Nov 13, 2015, at 6:45 AM, John Eldredge  wrote:
> >
> > Could you have a named signal at a named junction, with different names?
>
> Afaik, named road junctions do not exist in Japan (motorway junctions are
> named, but not normal roads with signals) I am not sure about other places.
>
> 
>
> The closest thing is when a major street is named after the
> place=quarter(?) it goes through, and the area is broken up into numbered
> blocks (not street addresses for the buildings, but sequential block
> numbers) and the signals are basically numbered along with the adjacent
> area, So:
>
> Driving down Honcho street through honcho sections 1, 2, 3, etc , the
> signal names  will match Honcho 1, Honcho2, honcho3.
>
> But this only happens for secondary/primary/trunks *sometimes*.
> Other times they will be named like "station north entrance" or just the
> name of the village, if it is a small place. Some are named as "foobar
> mountain entrance", because it is where you turn to drive up the large
> mountain - so expecting the signal names to be in some kind of sequential
> order, related to the current town name or nearby buildings is not good, as
> it is very inconsistent - hence the names need to be rendered, as provided
> mapping instructions and visible signage on where to turn - either on paper
> maps, a printed brochure or online PDF, or GPS navi systems are all based
> on signal names (when present) to tell you where to turn, or give you a
> reference point to count signals past that point on where to turn.
>
>
> Javbw.
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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Nov 13, 2015, at 6:45 AM, John Eldredge  wrote:
> 
> Could you have a named signal at a named junction, with different names?

Afaik, named road junctions do not exist in Japan (motorway junctions are 
named, but not normal roads with signals) I am not sure about other places. 



The closest thing is when a major street is named after the place=quarter(?) it 
goes through, and the area is broken up into numbered blocks (not street 
addresses for the buildings, but sequential block numbers) and the signals are 
basically numbered along with the adjacent area, So:

Driving down Honcho street through honcho sections 1, 2, 3, etc , the signal 
names  will match Honcho 1, Honcho2, honcho3. 

But this only happens for secondary/primary/trunks *sometimes*. 
Other times they will be named like "station north entrance" or just the name 
of the village, if it is a small place. Some are named as "foobar mountain 
entrance", because it is where you turn to drive up the large mountain - so 
expecting the signal names to be in some kind of sequential order, related to 
the current town name or nearby buildings is not good, as it is very 
inconsistent - hence the names need to be rendered, as provided mapping 
instructions and visible signage on where to turn - either on paper maps, a 
printed brochure or online PDF, or GPS navi systems are all based on signal 
names (when present) to tell you where to turn, or give you a reference point 
to count signals past that point on where to turn. 


Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[John Eldredge]

The name in this case is for the signal, not the junction. Could you have a 
named signal at a named junction, with different names?


--
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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On November 6, 2015 2:58:02 AM Andrew Errington  wrote:


We already use junction=yes for named junctions.  Why is another tag needed?

On 06/11/2015, Gerd Petermann  wrote:

wow, so the problem is much bigger than I expected.

I still think that my suggestion might help to solve the problem.

My understanding so far:

- In Japan (and maybe other countries),

you would prefer to render only those traffic_signals which have a name

- Complex junctions often require several nodes with
highway=traffic_signals,

at least for the routing.


My suggestion place=junction  could be used for all junctions,

maybe in combination with traffic_signals=yes/no to help the renderer.

A special Japanese style would simply ignore unnamed traffic_signals.


 Gerd




Von: John Willis 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. November 2015 23:47
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Named junctions





Javbw
On Nov 6, 2015, at 1:09 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar
mailto:sea...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I'd suggest to use a node tagged

place=junction

with name=* or ref=*

for this. What do you think?

From what I remember - in Korea they name junctions, and in Japan they
actually name the signals themselves.
I know that sounds like the same thing, but people to speak and refer to the
Signal at the junction, and the name is on the signal, and the iconography
used is the signal icon. As there are almost no street names in Japan on
tertiary roads and below, spatial navigation is done through counting
*unnamed* signals and occasionally using named signals.

The big problem traffic_signals_area
was trying to solve is the over-rendering of signal icons.

Billboards, pamphlets, and now websites use static images of maps with
access directions and simplified maps that show how many signals you have to
drive through before turning and reaching a destination from a known
landmark (highway exit, train station).

Here is the access map for a very large park.

http://hitachikaihin.jp/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/996e3788561dbe76ffe45257c28c7c25.png

Note the line of signals in a row. Those are there to be counted.

Because of Japan's very old and extremely convoluted road network, it is
usually not obvious where to turn - so people not using GPS directions
(actually using a *map*) Rely **very heavily** on accurate and consistent
placement of street light icons. And OSM is totally broken in this regard.
Every node gets an icon. Depending on the zoom level, there is 0-1-2-3-4 or
more icons when just **one** should be rendered. The signal icon is more
important that almost all place names.

This is something all the Japanese paper maps and online maps follow, and
Apple/Google also had to add all the icons properly to be useful *as a map*
in Japan.

Google Maps of the signals in a row. Note 1 named signal has a name box that
doesn't cover the road.

https://goo.gl/maps/E1hEzfi3iYF2

OSM has no rendered icons.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/36.3967/140.5927
It has a label for the lights rendered, but no icons.

Next zoom level - label disappears. So no signals, no labels. Ugh.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/36.4009/140.5901

Now icons - but two of them, with label.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.40107/140.58986

Next, 4 icons - no label
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.40160/140.58949

Finally, at z19, I get 4 icons and a label together.

What a horrible job of rendering a single icon with a single label!

This is an unacceptable situation  for the Map in Japan. It
fundamentally breaks using the map for road navigation for many many map
users. and since every other map is better at this fundamental necessity of
Japanese maps, it basically makes OSM an unusable choice in Japan (for
spatial map usage while driving) and seem unfinished.

Traffic_signals_area was an attempt to solve this, but as this isn't an
issue in Europe, it was ignored.

Javbw.




Labeling the signal area is just icing on the cake of removing all the
unneeded icons cluttering the map.



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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[johnw]

> On Nov 9, 2015, at 10:14 PM, Andrew Errington  wrote:
> 
> Surely this is a rendering problem?
> 
> In other words, if there are many named traffic lights within a
> certain distance of each other then only one symbol/name/whatever
> should be rendered?  If the traffic lights are all tagged the same
> then it ought to be even easier.


> On Nov 9, 2015, at 8:28 PM, Michał Brzozowski  wrote:
> 
> Frankly I don't find their road system to be that different to
> necessitate areal representation,

I have been showing easy sections. There are large parts of the road network 
where the maxwidth changes every 10-20 meters, so they use area based visual 
for the roads. 

The signals can be very close to one another becuase of complex and convoluted 
roads.  A rule that would work well in Tokyo, with it’s massive intersections, 
could easily group 2 unrelated lights together. 

The goal (if I understand it correctly, but I am not good at relations) of 
traffic Signals area was to leave nodes in their normal places on the roads, 
and connect them together with an area to say “this is a single light” via a 
relation, which better renderers can then render the light icon (and an 
attached name) as a single light. 

I’m not sure some fuzzy logic rule could group them together unless we just put 
all the nodes (and crosswalk crossings?) into a relation for a renderer to 
easily parse in some manner. 

Having a system that allowed multiple icons to be rendered for complicated 
junctions was, IMO, a mistake in the first place. a simple intersection between 
two ways, fine, but when we get into messy intersections, have 5-6 signal icons 
represented seems odd. Perhaps the data customers don’t mind - but the default 
rendered map is my priority. I care about fixing it for this regional issue, 
but I if this helps everyone, and we can find a way to make it not such a 
bother for mappers (making a relation, etc), then I am all for it - whatever 
does the job properly. 

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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[John Willis]

> On Nov 9, 2015, at 9:38 PM, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> 
> *You want to establish a new tag such as traffic_signals_area to solve 
> multiple signals rendering.
> *Opinions on the new tag are welcome from Japanese/Asian community because 
> rendering of traffic signal and its name is very important for (car) 
> navigation in Japan/Asia.

This is correct. 

We were also using this to solve multiple renderings of the name label as well 
(for named signals), but it could also be useful outside of Japan, like in 
Korea. 

However, Korea labels the junctions - they could be stop signs.  In Japan, the 
named item is always a set of signals. 

Perhaps we would need to do the same for signals and junctions separately, or 
it can be combined together. 

I don't care about the method, just that it is reliable. I believe the method 
will involve additional tagging for complex intersections, and may be optional 
for simple ones. 

Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-11-09 14:14 GMT+01:00 Andrew Errington :

> It could be something like "when a named traffic light node is found,
> add it to a group with that name.  When it's time to label the map,
> decide how much space is available for the label, depending on the
> zoom level.  At low zoom, draw a single traffic light icon, centred on
> the average of the nodes in the group.  At medium zoom, draw a single
> icon and a label.  At high zoom, draw an icon for each node, and a
> single label in the centre".  This would also work for single named
> traffic lights (they are in a group of one).  Single unnamed traffic
> lights would work if they are alone (i.e. on a simple junction).
> Unnamed traffic lights close together would not work (because they can
> not be grouped by name), but there could be a pre-processing step that
> makes a group based on the nodes being close together, say within 10m
> of each other.
>



relying on name equality and distance is not very reliable to determine
where the desired junction objects are / how many of them are there (every
new node added with a missing name or a slightly differently spelled name
will create a new traffic-light/junction group)

A junction object for every relevant junction is more work initially, but I
guess it would be more stable. Also it would always lead to the same
results in different tools, compared to named junctions mapped implicitly
and being determined by attributes on single traffic lights, what would
require some processing which will likely be optimized differently in
different tools, because there will probably always remain edge cases that
don't work.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[Andrew Errington]

Surely this is a rendering problem?

In other words, if there are many named traffic lights within a
certain distance of each other then only one symbol/name/whatever
should be rendered?  If the traffic lights are all tagged the same
then it ought to be even easier.

Adding an area with a tag is just a band-aid, plus it's a lot of work
for mappers.  If we can distil a rule from the data then the computer
can do all the work for us.  Unfortunately, writing software is also
hard, and we have to hope somebody else will do it, but having a clear
explanation of the task is a great help.

It could be something like "when a named traffic light node is found,
add it to a group with that name.  When it's time to label the map,
decide how much space is available for the label, depending on the
zoom level.  At low zoom, draw a single traffic light icon, centred on
the average of the nodes in the group.  At medium zoom, draw a single
icon and a label.  At high zoom, draw an icon for each node, and a
single label in the centre".  This would also work for single named
traffic lights (they are in a group of one).  Single unnamed traffic
lights would work if they are alone (i.e. on a simple junction).
Unnamed traffic lights close together would not work (because they can
not be grouped by name), but there could be a pre-processing step that
makes a group based on the nodes being close together, say within 10m
of each other.

A relation would also be a good solution.  Group the traffic lights
together and add them to a relation with the junction name.  Then
render icons and/or labels for each relation, based on the zoom level.
This would make the rendering code easier, but would be a lot of work
for mappers.

Andrew

On 09/11/2015, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> Hi Javbw, I want to confirm your point.
>
> *You want to establish a new tag such as traffic_signals_area to solve
> multiple signals rendering.
> *Opinions on the new tag are welcome from Japanese/Asian community because
> rendering of traffic signal and its name is very important for (car)
> navigation in Japan/Asia.
>
> You showed another issue such as dual labels or default map localization,
> but I want to focus on the above issue at this time.
>
> I will post a mail to Japanese ML after some document translation finished
> such as traffic_signals_area.
>
> --
> I like Mapion too. But Mapion is not perfect.
>
> At first, check Yahoo map.
> http://maps.loco.yahoo.co.jp/maps?type=scroll&datum=wgs&mode=map&pointer=off&lat=35.4573089010882&lon=139.619295364418&z=19
> You will see an unnamed traffic signal just north of Tobe (戸部) station.
>
> However Mapion doesn't show it.
> http://www.mapion.co.jp/m2/35.45725737865473,139.61930034601284,19
> And Google map doesn't show it.
>
> And you will notice multiple traffic signals rendering on Mapion just east
> of that signal. Nothing is perfect. But at least we can make OSM better.
>
> muramoto
>
> 2015-11-09 20:28 GMT+09:00 Michał Brzozowski :
>
>> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:59 AM, johnw  wrote:
>>
>> > Google Maps is actually two different sets of data: Google’s and a
>> Japanese
>> > GIS company, Zenrin. They have basically surveyed all of Japan building
>> by
>> > building, and everything is drawn area based (because the roads in
>> > Japan
>> can
>> > be such weird shapes and always change width suddenly).
>>
>> Frankly I don't find their road system to be that different to
>> necessitate areal representation, I guess it's more of a tradition
>> thing. But if you don't know, there is area:highway tagging scheme
>> developed by Marek Kleciak that allows to represent roads as areas, as
>> an extension to their linear representation. Note this is distinct
>> from area=yes highways that simply don't have any meaningful axis. If
>> there are resources available, people of Polish community (marimil)
>> could help set up a visualization layer for it.
>>
>> Michał
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[tomoya muramoto]

Hi Javbw, I want to confirm your point.

*You want to establish a new tag such as traffic_signals_area to solve
multiple signals rendering.
*Opinions on the new tag are welcome from Japanese/Asian community because
rendering of traffic signal and its name is very important for (car)
navigation in Japan/Asia.

You showed another issue such as dual labels or default map localization,
but I want to focus on the above issue at this time.

I will post a mail to Japanese ML after some document translation finished
such as traffic_signals_area.

--
I like Mapion too. But Mapion is not perfect.

At first, check Yahoo map.
http://maps.loco.yahoo.co.jp/maps?type=scroll&datum=wgs&mode=map&pointer=off&lat=35.4573089010882&lon=139.619295364418&z=19
You will see an unnamed traffic signal just north of Tobe (戸部) station.

However Mapion doesn't show it.
http://www.mapion.co.jp/m2/35.45725737865473,139.61930034601284,19
And Google map doesn't show it.

And you will notice multiple traffic signals rendering on Mapion just east
of that signal. Nothing is perfect. But at least we can make OSM better.

muramoto

2015-11-09 20:28 GMT+09:00 Michał Brzozowski :

> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:59 AM, johnw  wrote:
>
> > Google Maps is actually two different sets of data: Google’s and a
> Japanese
> > GIS company, Zenrin. They have basically surveyed all of Japan building
> by
> > building, and everything is drawn area based (because the roads in Japan
> can
> > be such weird shapes and always change width suddenly).
>
> Frankly I don't find their road system to be that different to
> necessitate areal representation, I guess it's more of a tradition
> thing. But if you don't know, there is area:highway tagging scheme
> developed by Marek Kleciak that allows to represent roads as areas, as
> an extension to their linear representation. Note this is distinct
> from area=yes highways that simply don't have any meaningful axis. If
> there are resources available, people of Polish community (marimil)
> could help set up a visualization layer for it.
>
> Michał
>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[Michał Brzozowski]

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:59 AM, johnw  wrote:

> Google Maps is actually two different sets of data: Google’s and a Japanese
> GIS company, Zenrin. They have basically surveyed all of Japan building by
> building, and everything is drawn area based (because the roads in Japan can
> be such weird shapes and always change width suddenly).

Frankly I don't find their road system to be that different to
necessitate areal representation, I guess it's more of a tradition
thing. But if you don't know, there is area:highway tagging scheme
developed by Marek Kleciak that allows to represent roads as areas, as
an extension to their linear representation. Note this is distinct
from area=yes highways that simply don't have any meaningful axis. If
there are resources available, people of Polish community (marimil)
could help set up a visualization layer for it.

Michał

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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-11-09 11:59 GMT+01:00 johnw :

> This “necessity” to show signals is common among Japanese maps and
> properly localized maps. I want OSM to be just as good.



I can understand this desire, and given what was said in this respect, it
seems reasonable / indispensable for your region to show these particular
infos. BUT: there has to be a different tag to do it,
highway=traffic_signals is not the tag that is useful in this case, because
it is not a tag for a junction, but it is a tag for a node with a single
traffic lights instance (wiki: "Description: A traffic signal for
regulating circulation." and used only on nodes).

What you want / should have are entities which represent a junction, and
which has a "traffic_signals" attribute in case it is a junction that is
considered by the locals (and shown on common maps) as a junction with
signals. This would enable the style sheet maintainers to come up with a
dedicated solution adapted for Japanese navigation needs.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[johnw]

> On Nov 8, 2015, at 7:17 PM, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> 
> As for me, signals rendering seems not to be a big problem

I was looking around at the other maps, and the one I really like the look of 
is Mapion. 

http://www.mapion.co.jp/m2/36.396593778361435,140.5346977118126,15 


Mapion completely changes it’s rendering colors as you zoom in, and the signal 
icons are clear, but a bit later than I remember. 

Google Maps is actually two different sets of data: Google’s and a Japanese GIS 
company, Zenrin. They have basically surveyed all of Japan building by 
building, and everything is drawn area based (because the roads in Japan can be 
such weird shapes and always change width suddenly). 

Google uses their detailed base map for all higher zooms in Japan (in places 
with people actually living there).  This switch to Zenrin’s data happened 5-7 
years ago (I think) - Google Maps was always much better in Japan than the US 
because of this use of a third party data company with an insanely complete 
hand drawn map (the survey people walk neighborhoods once a year with a 
clipboard and draw changes). 

You can see the switch between the Google data and the Zenrin data between 
these two links. 

https://www.google.co.jp/maps/@36.4025147,140.5836863,16.93z 
 End of google 
data (z16)

https://www.google.co.jp/maps/@36.4025454,140.5838747,17.02z 
 Start of Zenrin 
street survey (z17) 

This level of detail is something google has been working to catch up with in 
the rest of their maps. But since Zenrin keeps improving the basemap and 
location database, it is still the best at high zoom. 

Signal icons are displayed in Google’s Z16 in Japan. 

Google has yet to display signals in San Diego.  (z 17) 
https://www.google.co.jp/maps/@32.7199724,-117.1657039,17.01z 
 

Of the stop light infront of the Googleplex.
https://www.google.co.jp/maps/@37.4219383,-122.0850782,17.86z 


This “necessity” to show signals is common among Japanese maps and properly 
localized maps. I want OSM to be just as good. 

Properly showing one icon per signal is my goal, and these other mapping 
software illustrate what I eventually expect to see (signal wise) in OSM. 

Javbw


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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[johnw]

> On Nov 8, 2015, at 7:17 PM, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> 
> I'm a Japanese mapper, and I thank you for your work on Japan/Asia specific 
> problems.
> It's very tough to read and understand a long discussion in English, so maybe 
> I'm lack of full understanding on this issue.

Just trying to solve mapping issues where I am ^_^

> 
> I'm sorry I couldn't grasp this problem at this time.
> *Signals rendering is dependent on zoom level? -> Rendering priority can be 
> increased

rendering priority for signals should be increased, at least to make the map 
better in Japan. This is the reason a traffic signal is an original emoji icon 
- for map display (AFAIK). 

> *Multiple signals are shown? ->

> (1)Tagging rule can be changed to map only one signal at the junction,

Cant do that. The need the signal to know when a car encounters a signal

> (2)Rendering rule can be changed not to show signals having same name

that is a possibility, but I think that would require a relation.

> If existing tags are not enough, we need a new tag, like traffic_signals_area

Which is why it was brought up. 

> As for me, signals rendering seems not to be a big problem. Amenities 
> rendering also depends on zoom level. Multiple icon is better than nothing.

If there is one set of signals, I would like one consistent icon. 

If you use a map for driving outside of Tokyo, counting lights is a big part of 
navigation - both how you tell people where to go. Business' billboards & signs 
show you   direction via light counting.  Without street names to reference in 
many places, it is the only reference point to have. 

and in OSM, zooming out a bit to see the route, the lights disappear. 

> I think I'm not understanding this problem because I can *estimate* how 
> Japanese roads are. And I don't drive, so I don't know what informaiton are 
> useful for drivers.

I have driven ~ 400,000 km in the US before moving, and about 100,000 KM in 
Japan since 2010. I have visited places all over Honshu, from Morioka to 
Hiroshima. my hobby is photography in the mountains (Gunma/Nagano/Gifu/Niigata 
Prefectures), so I spend a lot of time on the tollways driving, and going to 
places where I have not been before by car, and places that usually do not have 
train access. This means I get a lot of practice navigating Japan via car, and 
using guides brochures printed for tourists who drive to locations. 

> 
> If you need some opinion from Japanese community, I can post these issue to 
> Japanese ML.

Thanks for the offer! I’m sure the mailing list will use that. 

Javbw


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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[tomoya muramoto]

I'm a Japanese mapper, and I thank you for your work on Japan/Asia specific
problems.
It's very tough to read and understand a long discussion in English, so
maybe I'm lack of full understanding on this issue.

I'm sorry I couldn't grasp this problem at this time.
*Signals rendering is dependent on zoom level? -> Rendering priority can be
increased
*Multiple signals are shown? -> (1)Tagging rule can be changed to map only
one signal at the junction, (2)Rendering rule can be changed not to show
signals having same name
If existing tags are not enough, we need a new tag, like
traffic_signals_area

As for me, signals rendering seems not to be a big problem. Amenities
rendering also depends on zoom level. Multiple icon is better than nothing.

I think I'm not understanding this problem because I can *estimate* how
Japanese roads are. And I don't drive, so I don't know what informaiton are
useful for drivers.

If you need some opinion from Japanese community, I can post these issue to
Japanese ML.

muramoto

2015-11-07 11:50 GMT+09:00 John Willis :

> (This Was sent earlier but looks like it wasn't received. Cleaned up/
> clarified a bit and sent again).
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2015, at 1:30 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
>
> However, I do not see why the "ignorance" of the non-Asian mappers
>
>
> Full disclosure: I am an American. I moved to Japan in 2011, and my
> comprehension of written Japanese is poor (I don't know much kanji at all),
> which makes me much better than a tourist, but I can not claim to speak for
> native Japanese mappers, just what I see in the tagging/wiki. In some ways
> I am stuck in between, because my home (I'm married and not leaving Japan)
> and language don't currently line up yet, so I am very familiar with &
> mapping places I can't always parse the meaning of without research, and
> dependent on the EN wiki.
>
> 
>
> TL;DR:
>
> The English/German taggers are the leaders in the tagging scheme AFAIK, so
> it is important for you to be inclusive and flexible when making tagging
> schemes. This will solve issues that you will eventually have to solve
> anyway, so we might as well do it now, for the benefit of all regional
> maps, not just myself and my region. saying a regional rendering solves the
> issue just puts off solving the issue via making a proper tagging system
> that is flexible enough to handle the regional issues we don't know about
> yet.
>
> 
>
> There are many people who are native Japanese speakers mapping, as well as
> people who love Japan (and other Asian countries too, of course) but are
> native English speaking mappers - so I want to make OSM's default render as
> useful as the default render in Google Maps or better. At least I want to
> repair glaring omissions and polish when possible.
>
>
> AFAIK, the OSM JA mapping community Is similar to the Wikipedia community
> - they follow the lead of the larger English community. And since
> Europeans/English speakers are driving tagging and "proper tag
> documentation", they are following what we lay down in the wiki, as I
> understand it.
>
> So as we are driving the tag set being used and content of the wiki pages,
> that exerts a tremendous amount of control over everyone mapping
> everywhere.
>
> And since a lot of the world, map wise, is the same, the difficulties come
> up with difficult to imagine regional or cultural differences, which cannot
> always be solved by just having a region render it in their own style.
>
> I believe those regional differences should be rendered in the default
> OSM, as the default should be the most useful for all users.
>
>
> 1) Asian countries, due to the script barrier of their language, offer
> most everything (at least in Japan) in JA and EN - which is reflected in
> dual labels for of most navigation signs throughout all of Japan. This is
> embraced in the default view of google maps, but not in OSM/-carto. This
> idea of dual language labeling should eventually become standard for
> non-standard scripts makes it useful for visitors, residents, and other
> Asians. It also describes the situation on the ground - everything (in
> Japan at least) is coated in English for non-native speakers, so the
> default render of OSM should reflect that.
>
> 2) Font issues persist. I helped a bit with updating the fonts, but very
> complex characters are difficult to read, there are not many different
> character weights supported, and shields, even with the render change,
> still render Kanji refs badly.
>
> 3) Japan is hit by a spatial mapping issue triple whammy:
>
> - no road names on tertiary or below (90% of all roads have no name or
> ref)
> - A very very dense place name system & lot number based addressing:
> nothing is labeled in sequence along the roads - a map is necessary to
> locate almost any structure.
>
> - the need for signals to have consistently rendered icons and for some to
> be named for spatial / map usage for visual navigation. Cities have many
> named signals.
>
> Th

Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[John Willis]

(This Was sent earlier but looks like it wasn't received. Cleaned up/ clarified 
a bit and sent again). 


> On Nov 6, 2015, at 1:30 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> However, I do not see why the "ignorance" of the non-Asian mappers

Full disclosure: I am an American. I moved to Japan in 2011, and my 
comprehension of written Japanese is poor (I don't know much kanji at all), 
which makes me much better than a tourist, but I can not claim to speak for 
native Japanese mappers, just what I see in the tagging/wiki. In some ways I am 
stuck in between, because my home (I'm married and not leaving Japan) and 
language don't currently line up yet, so I am very familiar with & mapping 
places I can't always parse the meaning of without research, and dependent on 
the EN wiki. 



TL;DR:

The English/German taggers are the leaders in the tagging scheme AFAIK, so it 
is important for you to be inclusive and flexible when making tagging schemes. 
This will solve issues that you will eventually have to solve anyway, so we 
might as well do it now, for the benefit of all regional maps, not just myself 
and my region. saying a regional rendering solves the issue just puts off 
solving the issue via making a proper tagging system that is flexible enough to 
handle the regional issues we don't know about yet. 



There are many people who are native Japanese speakers mapping, as well as 
people who love Japan (and other Asian countries too, of course) but are native 
English speaking mappers - so I want to make OSM's default render as useful as 
the default render in Google Maps or better. At least I want to repair glaring 
omissions and polish when possible. 


AFAIK, the OSM JA mapping community Is similar to the Wikipedia community - 
they follow the lead of the larger English community. And since 
Europeans/English speakers are driving tagging and "proper tag documentation", 
they are following what we lay down in the wiki, as I understand it. 

So as we are driving the tag set being used and content of the wiki pages, that 
exerts a tremendous amount of control over everyone mapping everywhere. 

And since a lot of the world, map wise, is the same, the difficulties come up 
with difficult to imagine regional or cultural differences, which cannot always 
be solved by just having a region render it in their own style. 

I believe those regional differences should be rendered in the default OSM, as 
the default should be the most useful for all users. 


1) Asian countries, due to the script barrier of their language, offer most 
everything (at least in Japan) in JA and EN - which is reflected in dual labels 
for of most navigation signs throughout all of Japan. This is embraced in the 
default view of google maps, but not in OSM/-carto. This idea of dual language 
labeling should eventually become standard for non-standard scripts makes it 
useful for visitors, residents, and other Asians. It also describes the 
situation on the ground - everything (in Japan at least) is coated in English 
for non-native speakers, so the default render of OSM should reflect that. 

2) Font issues persist. I helped a bit with updating the fonts, but very 
complex characters are difficult to read, there are not many different 
character weights supported, and shields, even with the render change, still 
render Kanji refs badly. 

3) Japan is hit by a spatial mapping issue triple whammy:

- no road names on tertiary or below (90% of all roads have no name or ref) 
- A very very dense place name system & lot number based addressing: nothing is 
labeled in sequence along the roads - a map is necessary to locate almost any 
structure. 

- the need for signals to have consistently rendered icons and for some to be 
named for spatial / map usage for visual navigation. Cities have many named 
signals.  

This makes what iconography and place labels somewhat more important for the 
"last kilometer" of a journey. 

4) regionally agnostic umbrella tags, with consideration given for value 
expansion. This is not so big a deal, as it is the easiest to understand, but 
think of how churchyard or building=church was documented - it is evident that 
all the other religious buildings would need to be tagged, but shrine and 
temple were added to the wiki by me (?), rather than a proposal handling all 
the religious buildings at once. Since the European pages are driving tags 
(English and German, right?), they need to think more globally when adding 
tags. It easy to come up with and document tags, but it is far easier to come 
up with tagging solutions that cover everyone in the first place. 

5) regional variation in the default render should be encouraged. Proper 
regional iconography/shields and certain pattern conventions should be 
encouraged in the main view IMO. For example, the current railway 
renderedblack/white pattern is used only for JR trains. The other private lines 
get a solid line. Again, as spatial navigation is important, having

Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[Gerd Petermann]

Oh, sorry, I did not yet notice this one :-( 

So forget my suggestion.

Gerd


Von: Andrew Errington 
Gesendet: Freitag, 6. November 2015 09:35
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

We already use junction=yes for named junctions.  Why is another tag needed?

On 06/11/2015, Gerd Petermann  wrote:
> wow, so the problem is much bigger than I expected.
>
> I still think that my suggestion might help to solve the problem.
>
> My understanding so far:
>
> - In Japan (and maybe other countries),
>
> you would prefer to render only those traffic_signals which have a name
>
> - Complex junctions often require several nodes with
> highway=traffic_signals,
>
> at least for the routing.
>
>
> My suggestion place=junction  could be used for all junctions,
>
> maybe in combination with traffic_signals=yes/no to help the renderer.
>
> A special Japanese style would simply ignore unnamed traffic_signals.
>
>
>  Gerd
>
>
>
> 
> Von: John Willis 
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. November 2015 23:47
> An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Named junctions
>
>
>
>
>
> Javbw
> On Nov 6, 2015, at 1:09 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar
> mailto:sea...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> I'd suggest to use a node tagged
>
> place=junction
>
> with name=* or ref=*
>
> for this. What do you think?
>
> From what I remember - in Korea they name junctions, and in Japan they
> actually name the signals themselves.
> I know that sounds like the same thing, but people to speak and refer to the
> Signal at the junction, and the name is on the signal, and the iconography
> used is the signal icon. As there are almost no street names in Japan on
> tertiary roads and below, spatial navigation is done through counting
> *unnamed* signals and occasionally using named signals.
>
> The big problem traffic_signals_area
> was trying to solve is the over-rendering of signal icons.
>
> Billboards, pamphlets, and now websites use static images of maps with
> access directions and simplified maps that show how many signals you have to
> drive through before turning and reaching a destination from a known
> landmark (highway exit, train station).
>
> Here is the access map for a very large park.
>
> http://hitachikaihin.jp/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/996e3788561dbe76ffe45257c28c7c25.png
>
> Note the line of signals in a row. Those are there to be counted.
>
> Because of Japan's very old and extremely convoluted road network, it is
> usually not obvious where to turn - so people not using GPS directions
> (actually using a *map*) Rely **very heavily** on accurate and consistent
> placement of street light icons. And OSM is totally broken in this regard.
> Every node gets an icon. Depending on the zoom level, there is 0-1-2-3-4 or
> more icons when just **one** should be rendered. The signal icon is more
> important that almost all place names.
>
> This is something all the Japanese paper maps and online maps follow, and
> Apple/Google also had to add all the icons properly to be useful *as a map*
> in Japan.
>
> Google Maps of the signals in a row. Note 1 named signal has a name box that
> doesn't cover the road.
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/E1hEzfi3iYF2
>
> OSM has no rendered icons.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/36.3967/140.5927
> It has a label for the lights rendered, but no icons.
>
> Next zoom level - label disappears. So no signals, no labels. Ugh.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/36.4009/140.5901
>
> Now icons - but two of them, with label.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.40107/140.58986
>
> Next, 4 icons - no label
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.40160/140.58949
>
> Finally, at z19, I get 4 icons and a label together.
>
> What a horrible job of rendering a single icon with a single label!
>
> This is an unacceptable situation  for the Map in Japan. It
> fundamentally breaks using the map for road navigation for many many map
> users. and since every other map is better at this fundamental necessity of
> Japanese maps, it basically makes OSM an unusable choice in Japan (for
> spatial map usage while driving) and seem unfinished.
>
> Traffic_signals_area was an attempt to solve this, but as this isn't an
> issue in Europe, it was ignored.
>
> Javbw.
>
>
>
>
> Labeling the signal area is just icing on the cake of removing all the
> unneeded icons cluttering the map.
>

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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[Andrew Errington]

We already use junction=yes for named junctions.  Why is another tag needed?

On 06/11/2015, Gerd Petermann  wrote:
> wow, so the problem is much bigger than I expected.
>
> I still think that my suggestion might help to solve the problem.
>
> My understanding so far:
>
> - In Japan (and maybe other countries),
>
> you would prefer to render only those traffic_signals which have a name
>
> - Complex junctions often require several nodes with
> highway=traffic_signals,
>
> at least for the routing.
>
>
> My suggestion place=junction  could be used for all junctions,
>
> maybe in combination with traffic_signals=yes/no to help the renderer.
>
> A special Japanese style would simply ignore unnamed traffic_signals.
>
>
>  Gerd
>
>
>
> 
> Von: John Willis 
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. November 2015 23:47
> An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Named junctions
>
>
>
>
>
> Javbw
> On Nov 6, 2015, at 1:09 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar
> mailto:sea...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> I'd suggest to use a node tagged
>
> place=junction
>
> with name=* or ref=*
>
> for this. What do you think?
>
> From what I remember - in Korea they name junctions, and in Japan they
> actually name the signals themselves.
> I know that sounds like the same thing, but people to speak and refer to the
> Signal at the junction, and the name is on the signal, and the iconography
> used is the signal icon. As there are almost no street names in Japan on
> tertiary roads and below, spatial navigation is done through counting
> *unnamed* signals and occasionally using named signals.
>
> The big problem traffic_signals_area
> was trying to solve is the over-rendering of signal icons.
>
> Billboards, pamphlets, and now websites use static images of maps with
> access directions and simplified maps that show how many signals you have to
> drive through before turning and reaching a destination from a known
> landmark (highway exit, train station).
>
> Here is the access map for a very large park.
>
> http://hitachikaihin.jp/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/996e3788561dbe76ffe45257c28c7c25.png
>
> Note the line of signals in a row. Those are there to be counted.
>
> Because of Japan's very old and extremely convoluted road network, it is
> usually not obvious where to turn - so people not using GPS directions
> (actually using a *map*) Rely **very heavily** on accurate and consistent
> placement of street light icons. And OSM is totally broken in this regard.
> Every node gets an icon. Depending on the zoom level, there is 0-1-2-3-4 or
> more icons when just **one** should be rendered. The signal icon is more
> important that almost all place names.
>
> This is something all the Japanese paper maps and online maps follow, and
> Apple/Google also had to add all the icons properly to be useful *as a map*
> in Japan.
>
> Google Maps of the signals in a row. Note 1 named signal has a name box that
> doesn't cover the road.
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/E1hEzfi3iYF2
>
> OSM has no rendered icons.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/36.3967/140.5927
> It has a label for the lights rendered, but no icons.
>
> Next zoom level - label disappears. So no signals, no labels. Ugh.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/36.4009/140.5901
>
> Now icons - but two of them, with label.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.40107/140.58986
>
> Next, 4 icons - no label
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.40160/140.58949
>
> Finally, at z19, I get 4 icons and a label together.
>
> What a horrible job of rendering a single icon with a single label!
>
> This is an unacceptable situation  for the Map in Japan. It
> fundamentally breaks using the map for road navigation for many many map
> users. and since every other map is better at this fundamental necessity of
> Japanese maps, it basically makes OSM an unusable choice in Japan (for
> spatial map usage while driving) and seem unfinished.
>
> Traffic_signals_area was an attempt to solve this, but as this isn't an
> issue in Europe, it was ignored.
>
> Javbw.
>
>
>
>
> Labeling the signal area is just icing on the cake of removing all the
> unneeded icons cluttering the map.
>

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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[Gerd Petermann]

wow, so the problem is much bigger than I expected.

I still think that my suggestion might help to solve the problem.

My understanding so far:

- In Japan (and maybe other countries),

you would prefer to render only those traffic_signals which have a name

- Complex junctions often require several nodes with highway=traffic_signals,

at least for the routing.


My suggestion place=junction  could be used for all junctions,

maybe in combination with traffic_signals=yes/no to help the renderer.

A special Japanese style would simply ignore unnamed traffic_signals.


 Gerd




Von: John Willis 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. November 2015 23:47
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Named junctions





Javbw
On Nov 6, 2015, at 1:09 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar 
mailto:sea...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I'd suggest to use a node tagged

place=junction

with name=* or ref=*

for this. What do you think?

>From what I remember - in Korea they name junctions, and in Japan they 
>actually name the signals themselves.
I know that sounds like the same thing, but people to speak and refer to the 
Signal at the junction, and the name is on the signal, and the iconography used 
is the signal icon. As there are almost no street names in Japan on tertiary 
roads and below, spatial navigation is done through counting *unnamed* signals 
and occasionally using named signals.

The big problem traffic_signals_area
was trying to solve is the over-rendering of signal icons.

Billboards, pamphlets, and now websites use static images of maps with access 
directions and simplified maps that show how many signals you have to drive 
through before turning and reaching a destination from a known landmark 
(highway exit, train station).

Here is the access map for a very large park.

http://hitachikaihin.jp/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/996e3788561dbe76ffe45257c28c7c25.png

Note the line of signals in a row. Those are there to be counted.

Because of Japan's very old and extremely convoluted road network, it is 
usually not obvious where to turn - so people not using GPS directions 
(actually using a *map*) Rely **very heavily** on accurate and consistent 
placement of street light icons. And OSM is totally broken in this regard. 
Every node gets an icon. Depending on the zoom level, there is 0-1-2-3-4 or 
more icons when just **one** should be rendered. The signal icon is more 
important that almost all place names.

This is something all the Japanese paper maps and online maps follow, and 
Apple/Google also had to add all the icons properly to be useful *as a map* in 
Japan.

Google Maps of the signals in a row. Note 1 named signal has a name box that 
doesn't cover the road.

https://goo.gl/maps/E1hEzfi3iYF2

OSM has no rendered icons.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/36.3967/140.5927
It has a label for the lights rendered, but no icons.

Next zoom level - label disappears. So no signals, no labels. Ugh.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/36.4009/140.5901

Now icons - but two of them, with label.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.40107/140.58986

Next, 4 icons - no label
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.40160/140.58949

Finally, at z19, I get 4 icons and a label together.

What a horrible job of rendering a single icon with a single label!

This is an unacceptable situation  for the Map in Japan. It 
fundamentally breaks using the map for road navigation for many many map users. 
and since every other map is better at this fundamental necessity of Japanese 
maps, it basically makes OSM an unusable choice in Japan (for spatial map usage 
while driving) and seem unfinished.

Traffic_signals_area was an attempt to solve this, but as this isn't an issue 
in Europe, it was ignored.

Javbw.




Labeling the signal area is just icing on the cake of removing all the unneeded 
icons cluttering the map.
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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 11:47 PM, John Willis  wrote:

> Traffic_signals_area was an attempt to solve this, but as this isn't an
> issue in Europe, it was ignored.


Thanks a lot John for this explanation (which I left out of the quote) of
the Japanese needs.
However, I do not see why the "ignorance" of the non-Asian mappers should
stop the Japanese community from making a tagging schema that works for
them (without voting, etc.). They probably have to make their own map
rendering for it or propose a pull request to be included in cartocss.

So please, talk to the Japanese community and set up something that works
for them. Do not get discouraged because there is no interest from another
group of mappers in another country in this tag.

regards

m
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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Nov 6, 2015, at 1:09 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
> 
> I'd suggest to use a node tagged 
> place=junction
> 
> with name=* or ref=*
> for this. What do you think?
> 

From what I remember - in Korea they name junctions, and in Japan they actually 
name the signals themselves. 
I know that sounds like the same thing, but people to speak and refer to the 
Signal at the junction, and the name is on the signal, and the iconography used 
is the signal icon. As there are almost no street names in Japan on tertiary 
roads and below, spatial navigation is done through counting *unnamed* signals 
and occasionally using named signals.

The big problem traffic_signals_area 
was trying to solve is the over-rendering of signal icons. 

Billboards, pamphlets, and now websites use static images of maps with access 
directions and simplified maps that show how many signals you have to drive 
through before turning and reaching a destination from a known landmark 
(highway exit, train station). 

Here is the access map for a very large park. 

http://hitachikaihin.jp/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/996e3788561dbe76ffe45257c28c7c25.png

Note the line of signals in a row. Those are there to be counted. 

Because of Japan's very old and extremely convoluted road network, it is 
usually not obvious where to turn - so people not using GPS directions 
(actually using a *map*) Rely **very heavily** on accurate and consistent 
placement of street light icons. And OSM is totally broken in this regard. 
Every node gets an icon. Depending on the zoom level, there is 0-1-2-3-4 or 
more icons when just **one** should be rendered. The signal icon is more 
important that almost all place names. 

This is something all the Japanese paper maps and online maps follow, and 
Apple/Google also had to add all the icons properly to be useful *as a map* in 
Japan. 

Google Maps of the signals in a row. Note 1 named signal has a name box that 
doesn't cover the road. 

https://goo.gl/maps/E1hEzfi3iYF2

OSM has no rendered icons. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/36.3967/140.5927
It has a label for the lights rendered, but no icons. 

Next zoom level - label disappears. So no signals, no labels. Ugh.  
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/36.4009/140.5901

Now icons - but two of them, with label. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.40107/140.58986

Next, 4 icons - no label
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.40160/140.58949

Finally, at z19, I get 4 icons and a label together.

What a horrible job of rendering a single icon with a single label! 

This is an unacceptable situation  for the Map in Japan. It 
fundamentally breaks using the map for road navigation for many many map users. 
and since every other map is better at this fundamental necessity of Japanese 
maps, it basically makes OSM an unusable choice in Japan (for spatial map usage 
while driving) and seem unfinished. 

Traffic_signals_area was an attempt to solve this, but as this isn't an issue 
in Europe, it was ignored.

Javbw. 




Labeling the signal area is just icing on the cake of removing all the unneeded 
icons cluttering the map. ___
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Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

This has been discussed somewhat last year:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-July/018517.html
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-September/019338.html

See also this tagging proposal:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tagging_for_complex_junctions_or_traffic_signals_that_are_named


On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Gerd Petermann <
gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I've learned that in some countries each junction has a name/ref and
>
> that these are used for navigation.
>
> At small junctions you may just find a node with a name tag,
>
> but at larger junctions or roundabouts I see all kinds of "tricks"
>
> to place an object with a name.
>
>
> I'd suggest to use a node tagged
>
> place=junction
>
> with name=* or ref=*
>
> for this. What do you think?
>
>
> Gerd
>
> ___
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>
>
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[Tagging] Named junctions

[Gerd Petermann]

I've learned that in some countries each junction has a name/ref and

that these are used for navigation.

At small junctions you may just find a node with a name tag,

but at larger junctions or roundabouts I see all kinds of "tricks"

to place an object with a name.


I'd suggest to use a node tagged

place=junction

with name=* or ref=*

for this. What do you think?


Gerd
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