Re: [Tagging] Parking for businesses..
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: * Anthony o...@inbox.org [2010-05-18 20:47 -0400]: On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Tyler Gunn ty...@egunn.com wrote: Almost all of these types of parking lots will have some kind of notice that tow-away is enforced for unauthorized parking. So the general idea is you're free to park there, ONLY if you're visiting the businesses serviced by the lot. Access=destination? No, the public has no right of access. I thought the description of access=destination matched this scenario fairly well. You're saying that it only applies if the road is publicly owned? (i.e. a strict reading of right of access rather than you're allowed to be here if...) I do think access=destination should only be used where people have a right of access. But furthermore, you're allowed to be here if isn't the same as there aren't any signs saying you're not allowed to be here if. If there were a sign which said anyone may use this parking lot if this is their destination, maybe access=destination is appropriate. But I've never seen such a sign. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking for businesses..
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: I propose to add the following to the Parking wiki page, in the table of the Tags section, as follows: (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Parking) Column Key: access Column Value: public/customer/private Column Element: [node or area] Column Comment: Specify the intended users of the parking lot. access=public if intended for the general public, access=customer if intended only for those who are visiting nearby shops/amenities, or access=private if access is more restrictive than access=customer (e.g. for staff only, or requiring specific permission). Sorry, let me try that definition one more time: Specify the intended users of the parking lot. access=public if parking is available for general public use; access=customer if parking is only for those who are visiting nearby shops/amenities; access=private if access is otherwise restricted (e.g. for staff only, or requiring specific permission, etc.). Only use access=customer or access=private if this restriction is signed or otherwise enforced. The final sentence is to make the tag verifiable. Thoughts? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking for businesses..
Am 18.05.2010 09:13, schrieb Roy Wallace: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Roy Wallacewaldo000...@gmail.com wrote: I propose to add the following to the Parking wiki page, in the table of the Tags section, as follows: (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Parking) Column Key: access Column Value: public/customer/private Column Element: [node or area] Column Comment: Specify the intended users of the parking lot. access=public if intended for the general public, access=customer if intended only for those who are visiting nearby shops/amenities, or access=private if access is more restrictive than access=customer (e.g. for staff only, or requiring specific permission). Sorry, let me try that definition one more time: Specify the intended users of the parking lot. access=public if parking is available for general public use; access=customer if parking is only for those who are visiting nearby shops/amenities; access=private if access is otherwise restricted (e.g. for staff only, or requiring specific permission, etc.). Only use access=customer or access=private if this restriction is signed or otherwise enforced. The final sentence is to make the tag verifiable. Thoughts? Use access=permissive instead of access=customer and you get what's in use for years. Regards, ULFL ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking for businesses..
On 18 May 2010 17:23, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: Use access=permissive instead of access=customer and you get what's in use for years. I was thinking access=destination although then you need to link the parking lot to the destination, although you probably would for access=customer as well since you might need to know where to spend money, or window shop, to be considered a customer. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking for businesses..
2010/5/18 Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com: Use access=permissive instead of access=customer and you get what's in use for years. +1 cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking for businesses..
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: Use access=permissive instead of access=customer and you get what's in use for years. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access says access=permissive means The owner gives general permission for access. This doesn't seem consistent with parking restricted to customers. Do you think this is a problem? I think, if access=* is to mean something different when applied to a parking lot, I would like the wiki to be updated to be more explicit about it. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking for businesses..
Seventy 7 seven...@operamail.com writes: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access says access=permissive means The owner gives general permission for access. This doesn't seem consistent with parking restricted to customers. Do you think this is a problem? I think, if access=* is to mean something different when applied to a parking lot, I would like the wiki to be updated to be more explicit about it. I think access=permissive is the right tag, but the wording in the wiki could be improved and a convention for parking agreed. eg The owner gives general permission for access but where there is no public right of way. For example, use of a car park by customers only or permission to walk across a field For car parks: Use access=yes for public parking, access=permissive for customer parking and access=private for staff parking, or whatever. I have seen parking lots where there is a sign or an implication that use is intended for and/or restricted to those using the associated business (everywhere) parking where there is no public right of access (private property), but random parking is allowed (sometimes) I would call the first access=destination and the second access=permissive. pgpHt8wVTMS4L.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking for businesses..
2010/5/19 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com: I would call the first access=destination and the second access=permissive. yes, by thinking it over I also see some space for a restriction between permissive and private and destination is more elegant cause it uses an already introduced value for access. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking for businesses..
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:57 AM, Seventy 7 seven...@operamail.com wrote: Use access=permissive instead of access=customer and you get what's in use for years. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access says access=permissive means The owner gives general permission for access. This doesn't seem consistent with parking restricted to customers. Do you think this is a problem? I think, if access=* is to mean something different when applied to a parking lot, I would like the wiki to be updated to be more explicit about it. I think access=permissive is the right tag, but the wording in the wiki could be improved and a convention for parking agreed. eg The owner gives general permission for access but where there is no public right of way. For example, use of a car park by customers only or permission to walk across a field Be careful. I think some public carparks, e.g. multi-storey parking, open 24 hours a day, charging a fee, run by a private business, are access=permissive. For car parks: Use access=yes for public parking, access=permissive for customer parking and access=private for staff parking, or whatever. I do agree that a convention for parking should be specified. But I DON'T think we should use access=permissive simultaneously with two very different meanings: 1) (wiki definition) privately owned land, for example by a business, with general access allowed to anyone 2) (the proposed parking-specific definition) access allowed to customers ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking for businesses..
On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Tyler Gunn ty...@egunn.com wrote: Almost all of these types of parking lots will have some kind of notice that tow-away is enforced for unauthorized parking. So the general idea is you're free to park there, ONLY if you're visiting the businesses serviced by the lot. Sounds like access=private, unless and until there's a more specific tag. Access=public? No, the public has no right of access. Access=permissive? No, the owner does not give *general* permission to access. Access=destination? No, the public has no right of access. Something specific like access=customer would be better. Or maybe access=restricted; access:restriction=whatever is actually written on the sign. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Parking for businesses..
I was using the OSM maps for my city on my Garmin recently and when I listed the parking POIs I noticed a whole slew of parking showing up in there; mainly unnamed.. It got me thinking why those are in there but then it dawned on me that in my area I've started adding in the parking lots and service roads for businesses in my area: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=49.790516lon=-97.156395zoom=18layers=B000FTF This brought up a few questions: 1. What should the access for these parking lots be? access=public would seem to be appropriate, but in some regards that's not entirely accurate. Almost all of these types of parking lots will have some kind of notice that tow-away is enforced for unauthorized parking. So the general idea is you're free to park there, ONLY if you're visiting the businesses serviced by the lot. So would access=permissive (The owner gives general permission for access.) or access=destination (The public has right of access only if this is the only road to your destination.) be more appropriate? 2. Should I bother naming these parking lots? Thanks! Tyler ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking for businesses..
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Tyler Gunn ty...@egunn.com wrote: From http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Parking: The distinction between public parking lots, customer parking lots (such as at cinemas etc.), and private parking lots (such as for staff in a business park) is handled with access=* tags. To me, reading that directly that would seem to suggest using one of three values: access=public, or access=customer, or access=private. I'd agree with the 3 values you proposed though; really access=customer is the only new one. Makes sense to me too because it allows for a true distinction between general public parking (like multi-story parkades that are in the business of parking cars regardless of where the people are going), and parking lots intended to service the customers of a store, business, etc. I propose to add the following to the Parking wiki page, in the table of the Tags section, as follows: (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Parking) Column Key: access Column Value: public/customer/private Column Element: [node or area] Column Comment: Specify the intended users of the parking lot. access=public if intended for the general public, access=customer if intended only for those who are visiting nearby shops/amenities, or access=private if access is more restrictive than access=customer (e.g. for staff only, or requiring specific permission). Thoughts? The main problem is that if we propose those values of access=* specifically for amenity=parking's, this is not consistent with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access. I don't think that would be a big issue, though - just add something on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access such as The tag access=* has a different meaning when applied to an amenity=parking feature. Alternatively, for parking, use the key use (as a noun) instead of access, as in use=public/customer/private. Again...thoughts? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
