Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for surface=cobblestone/sett/paving_stones

2018-01-22 Thread Fernando Trebien 
On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 4:14 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> 2018-01-22 17:25 GMT+01:00 Fernando Trebien :
>> - sett: hewn stones with flat top, wide filled gaps, comfortable to
>> cycle and walk on, uncomfortable on high heels [today's image and also
>> [2] used previously for sett]
>
> ok, although it remains unclear what "filled" gaps means. Is this
> purposefully filled (e.g. with sand, or bitumen), or is it about them being
> old? You'll hardly find open gaps in older pavements, because they will fill
> themselves.

I would make no distinction between the two cases. The filling makes
the difference in height between the stones and the gaps less
pronounced, so it produces a smoother surface, especially it is nearly
at the same height as the stones.

>> - cobblestone: hewn stones with slightly arched top, wide filled gaps,
>> uncomfortable to cycle on, difficult on high heels [images [3] and [4]
>> used previously for cobblestone:flattened and cobblestone]
>
> difficult to distinguish from your previous example (sett)

From the opinions I've found from British and German mappers, I think
the distinction is perhaps almost irrelevant for large vehicles such
as cars, but significant for smaller vehicles such as bicycles, and
also for pedestrians (both those wearing shoes and those wearing high
heels). We can use the images that have already been used as examples
(I think the threshold lies between images 4 and 5):
https://i.imgur.com/HYmjeO6.jpg

We can also try to define it more technically (what does it mean to be
"slightly" arched). Right now, or as a future refinement of the
difference.

But I think we can't escape the issue of borderline cases (that happen
also with other values of surface=*) and this hasn't prevented mappers
from making sensible choices.

>> - cobblestone:raised: natural or hewn stones with very round/irregular
>> top, wide empty gaps, fixed to a bedding, difficult to cycle and walk
>> on, uncomfortable to drive on [images [5] and [6] used previously for
>> cobblestone but rejected]
>
> again "empty gaps", same comment as for filled gaps.
> "uncomfortable" for driving in a car? Depends on the suspension of the car
> I'd say.
> I agree that these seem to occur more rarely than the cobblestone:flattened,
> although around here it is full of them (in old villages / towns).

I'm proposing this because I think, looking at the wiki edit history,
that cobblestone:flattened has caused some confusion depending on what
definition of "cobblestone" a mapper has in mind - the vernacular,
arched, cuboid type [3] or the technical, fully roundish type [4][6].
So, if its usage is low, maybe it's a good idea to get rid of it to
improve clarity overall. It would be a much smaller effort than trying
to make sett and cobblestone adhere to their exact technical
definitions.

-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"Nullius in verba."

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Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for surface=cobblestone/sett/paving_stones

2018-01-22 Thread Fernando Trebien 
On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 3:59 PM, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
> On 22.01.2018 17:25, Fernando Trebien wrote:
>> - sett: hewn stones with flat top (...) [2] (...)> - cobblestone: hewn 
>> stones with slightly arched top (...) images [3]
> and [4]
>
> I don't believe requiring mappers to make a distinction between these
> two is a good idea. Let's look at your images:
>
>> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ec/Dscf1641-800.jpg
>> [3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Kasseien.jpg
>> [4]
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Guzow-oryszew_road_cm03.jpg
>
> If I read your mail correctly, you suggest that [3] and [4] belong in
> the same category, while [2] is a fundamentally different surface type.
>
> But when I look at these, [2] and [3] feel a lot more similar to each
> other than [4] is to either of them.

[2] and [3] are similar according to the layout pattern (regular,
cuboid stones), whereas [3] and [4] are similar according to their
usability by various modes of travel (car, bicycle, foot - shoes, foot
- high heels). This is because in [2] the stones are mostly flat,
whereas in [3] and in [4] they are slightly arched.

Having an arched top (but not as round as [6]) has been pointed out as
a distinctive character by both British [9][10] and German [11]
mappers.

[9] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=681311#p681311
[10] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=681502#p681502
[11] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=681773#p681773

-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"Nullius in verba."

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Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for surface=cobblestone/sett/paving_stones

2018-01-22 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2018-01-22 17:25 GMT+01:00 Fernando Trebien :

> - paving_stones: blocks or stones with smooth flat top, tight gaps
> [same images as today]
>


ok



> - sett: hewn stones with flat top, wide filled gaps, comfortable to
> cycle and walk on, uncomfortable on high heels [today's image and also
> [2] used previously for sett]
>


ok, although it remains unclear what "filled" gaps means. Is this
purposefully filled (e.g. with sand, or bitumen), or is it about them being
old? You'll hardly find open gaps in older pavements, because they will
fill themselves.



> - cobblestone: hewn stones with slightly arched top, wide filled gaps,
> uncomfortable to cycle on, difficult on high heels [images [3] and [4]
> used previously for cobblestone:flattened and cobblestone]
>


difficult to distinguish from your previous example (sett)




>
> - cobblestone:raised: natural or hewn stones with very round/irregular
> top, wide empty gaps, fixed to a bedding, difficult to cycle and walk
> on, uncomfortable to drive on [images [5] and [6] used previously for
> cobblestone but rejected]
>


again "empty gaps", same comment as for filled gaps.
"uncomfortable" for driving in a car? Depends on the suspension of the car
I'd say.
I agree that these seem to occur more rarely than the
cobblestone:flattened, although around here it is full of them (in old
villages / towns).



>
> - cobblestone:flattened: never (to avoid confusion)
>


OK by me, only 4 271 of these, and most cobblestone tagged surfaces would
maybe be better described as cobblestone:flattened (current definitions).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for surface=cobblestone/sett/paving_stones

2018-01-22 Thread Tobias Knerr 
On 22.01.2018 17:25, Fernando Trebien wrote:
> - sett: hewn stones with flat top (...) [2] (...)> - cobblestone: hewn stones 
> with slightly arched top (...) images [3]
and [4]

I don't believe requiring mappers to make a distinction between these
two is a good idea. Let's look at your images:

> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ec/Dscf1641-800.jpg
> [3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Kasseien.jpg
> [4]
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Guzow-oryszew_road_cm03.jpg

If I read your mail correctly, you suggest that [3] and [4] belong in
the same category, while [2] is a fundamentally different surface type.

But when I look at these, [2] and [3] feel a lot more similar to each
other than [4] is to either of them.

Yours,
Tobias

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Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for surface=cobblestone/sett/paving_stones

2018-01-22 Thread Mateusz Konieczny 
Seems to be a good idea for me.

Requires rushing of real cobblestones, but solves problem of mixing setts
colloquially named cobblestone and real cobblestone.

So we stop pretending that current tags are correctly used and increase
changes that we can distinguish cobblestone and uneven sett.

On 22 Jan 2018 5:27 p.m., "Fernando Trebien" 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Following from this analysis [1], I would like to propose that we
> abandon cobblestone:flattened, define the new value cobblestone:raised
> for a rare case, and redefine existing values as follows:
>
> - paving_stones: blocks or stones with smooth flat top, tight gaps
> [same images as today]
>
> - sett: hewn stones with flat top, wide filled gaps, comfortable to
> cycle and walk on, uncomfortable on high heels [today's image and also
> [2] used previously for sett]
>
> - cobblestone: hewn stones with slightly arched top, wide filled gaps,
> uncomfortable to cycle on, difficult on high heels [images [3] and [4]
> used previously for cobblestone:flattened and cobblestone]
>
> - cobblestone:raised: natural or hewn stones with very round/irregular
> top, wide empty gaps, fixed to a bedding, difficult to cycle and walk
> on, uncomfortable to drive on [images [5] and [6] used previously for
> cobblestone but rejected]
>
> - cobblestone:flattened: never (to avoid confusion)
>
> What do you think?
>
> This follows from two previous discussions here: [7] and [8].
>
> [1] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=681775#p681775
> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ec/Dscf1641-800.jpg
> [3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Kasseien.jpg
> [4] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Guzow-
> oryszew_road_cm03.jpg
> [5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/2/20/Koppenberg_cobbles.jpg
> [6] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/1/10/ItalianStones.jpg
> [7] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-
> January/034795.html
> [8] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-
> January/034816.html
>
> --
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>
> "Nullius in verba."
>
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[Tagging] Proposed definition for surface=cobblestone/sett/paving_stones

2018-01-22 Thread Fernando Trebien 
Hello,

Following from this analysis [1], I would like to propose that we
abandon cobblestone:flattened, define the new value cobblestone:raised
for a rare case, and redefine existing values as follows:

- paving_stones: blocks or stones with smooth flat top, tight gaps
[same images as today]

- sett: hewn stones with flat top, wide filled gaps, comfortable to
cycle and walk on, uncomfortable on high heels [today's image and also
[2] used previously for sett]

- cobblestone: hewn stones with slightly arched top, wide filled gaps,
uncomfortable to cycle on, difficult on high heels [images [3] and [4]
used previously for cobblestone:flattened and cobblestone]

- cobblestone:raised: natural or hewn stones with very round/irregular
top, wide empty gaps, fixed to a bedding, difficult to cycle and walk
on, uncomfortable to drive on [images [5] and [6] used previously for
cobblestone but rejected]

- cobblestone:flattened: never (to avoid confusion)

What do you think?

This follows from two previous discussions here: [7] and [8].

[1] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=681775#p681775
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ec/Dscf1641-800.jpg
[3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Kasseien.jpg
[4] 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Guzow-oryszew_road_cm03.jpg
[5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/2/20/Koppenberg_cobbles.jpg
[6] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/1/10/ItalianStones.jpg
[7] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-January/034795.html
[8] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-January/034816.html

-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"Nullius in verba."

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