Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[santamariense]

> That was actually what I had originally proposed. My role format was
> stop:+00:32, though, which is only slightly different.  People in this list
> noted that it would corrupt existing relation roles, so I redesigned the
> proposal to have no effect on existing data.

The way I think it I cannot see how it corrupts relation roles. This
complement to the role would be optional, not compulsory. So, up to
now, what have been mapped without it (complement) can be seen in one
of the following 2 ways:
1 - As an incomplete information, though it doesn't change the meaning
of the role in the relation;
2 - As an already complete info, because not necessarily all stops
would have this complementary information, because there are stops
with not exact time to arrive/leave whose situation can have their
times stipulated.

> Perhaps this is something that could be proposed later.

For sure, that's the reason I'm already voting yes.

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Michael Reichert]

Hi Leif,

Am 16/02/2019 um 15.04 schrieb Leif Rasmussen:
> Here is a link to the current proposal, which everyone with a wiki account
> can now vote on:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules/Departures

Please mind the rules documented at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting You
currently lack

- a proper notification email (please start a new thread on the mailing
  list, don't click on "Respond" in your email client)
- a start and end date for the voting on the proposal page

Best regards

Michael


-- 
Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
ausgenommen)
I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)



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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Leif Rasmussen]

> I didn't follow the discussion but this proposal is at least > helpful.
> Why not map xx:xx in the same route relation? Role
> examples:
> stop@00:20, stop_exit_only@03:45,
> stop_entry_only@00:25-00:31, and for
> bus stops where the timetable is approximated (like in
> Brazil) use "~"
> for the usual times, examples: stop@~00:27-00:30,
> stop_exit_only@~00:46

That was actually what I had originally proposed. My role format was
stop:+00:32, though, which is only slightly different.  People in this list
noted that it would corrupt existing relation roles, so I redesigned the
proposal to have no effect on existing data.

I have since been trying to come up with other ways to encode this data,
including separate relations, tags on the bus stops, and additional tags in
the bus route relation. I have left those out of the current proposal,
though, to keep it simple.  Perhaps this is something that could be
proposed later.


Here is a link to the current proposal, which everyone with a wiki account
can now vote on:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules/Departures

Thanks for your enthusiasm,
Leif Rasmussen
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[santamariense]

> I also created a proposal, but I knew in advance it wouldn't be practical
> to duplicate full GTFS functionality in OSM.

Well, this is not a so simple question. There're many countries around
the world that have no GTFS. And, it's just what happens to us in
Brazil. We are mapping intercity bus routes in the state where I live.
So, if we have this data in OSM, maybe we are going to be the pioneer.

Do not map GTFS in OSM for me sounds like do not map building in city
X because it's available in town hall.

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_timetables

I didn't follow the discussion but this proposal is at least helpfull.
Why do not map xx:xx in the same route relation? Role examples:
stop@00:20, stop_exit_only@03:45, stop_entry_only@00:25-00:31, and for
bus stops where the timetable is approximated (like in Brazil) use "~"
for the usual times, examples: stop@~00:27-00:30,
stop_exit_only@~00:46

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport_agencies

It has gone to my wiki watchlist so I can follow it in its developing.

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules/Departures

This proposal is as simple as possible and it's better to be so.
However it doesn't cover all situations. For example, stops that have
checkpoint, in another words, that have exact time to arrive and/or
leave intermediaries stops. Many times only duration=* cannot be
enough to accurate times in intermediaries stops.

LeifRasmussen, what do you think about to attach "duration in roles"
to complement the proposal? It is supposed to be used not in all
stops, but only in those that have exact time to arrive/leave, or at
least a well known usual time.

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

Regarding the proposal, feel free to try and apply it on your bus routes.
And if you mapped say a hundred, you can even change the proposal's status
and bring it up for a vote. Be prepared for quite a bit of resistance
though, but for what it's worth, I'm likely to vote in favour. The main
point people will have against it, is that it is data that is very hard to
maintain and keep up-to-date.

Also, maybe you find flaws in it, so if you can improve on it, go for it.

Once I have a bit more time, I'll probably move forward with the agency
proposal.

Polyglot

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 8:04 PM santamariense  wrote:

> > I also created a proposal, but I knew in advance it wouldn't be practical
> > to duplicate full GTFS functionality in OSM.
>
> Well, this is not a so simple question. There're many countries around
> the world that have no GTFS. And, it's just what happens to us in
> Brazil. We are mapping intercity bus routes in the state where I live.
> So, if we have this data in OSM, maybe we are going to be the pioneer.
>
> Do not map GTFS in OSM for me sounds like do not map building in city
> X because it's available in town hall.
>
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_timetables
>
> I didn't follow the discussion but this proposal is at least helpfull.
> Why do not map xx:xx in the same route relation? Role examples:
> stop@00:20, stop_exit_only@03:45, stop_entry_only@00:25-00:31, and for
> bus stops where the timetable is approximated (like in Brazil) use "~"
> for the usual times, examples: stop@~00:27-00:30,
> stop_exit_only@~00:46
>
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport_agencies
>
> It has gone to my wiki watchlist so I can follow it in its developing.
>
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules/Departures
>
> This proposal is as simple as possible and it's better to be so.
> However it doesn't cover all situations. For example, stops that have
> checkpoint, in another words, that have exact time to arrive and/or
> leave intermediaries stops. Many times only duration=* cannot be
> enough to accurate times in intermediaries stops.
>
> LeifRasmussen, what do you think about to attach "duration in roles"
> to complement the proposal? It is supposed to be used not in all
> stops, but only in those that have exact time to arrive/leave, or at
> least a well known usual time.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

I think most people will be against having variable roles in the route
relations.

Polyglot

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 8:04 PM santamariense  wrote:

> > I also created a proposal, but I knew in advance it wouldn't be practical
> > to duplicate full GTFS functionality in OSM.
>
> Well, this is not a so simple question. There're many countries around
> the world that have no GTFS. And, it's just what happens to us in
> Brazil. We are mapping intercity bus routes in the state where I live.
> So, if we have this data in OSM, maybe we are going to be the pioneer.
>
> Do not map GTFS in OSM for me sounds like do not map building in city
> X because it's available in town hall.
>
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_timetables
>
> I didn't follow the discussion but this proposal is at least helpfull.
> Why do not map xx:xx in the same route relation? Role examples:
> stop@00:20, stop_exit_only@03:45, stop_entry_only@00:25-00:31, and for
> bus stops where the timetable is approximated (like in Brazil) use "~"
> for the usual times, examples: stop@~00:27-00:30,
> stop_exit_only@~00:46
>
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport_agencies
>
> It has gone to my wiki watchlist so I can follow it in its developing.
>
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules/Departures
>
> This proposal is as simple as possible and it's better to be so.
> However it doesn't cover all situations. For example, stops that have
> checkpoint, in another words, that have exact time to arrive and/or
> leave intermediaries stops. Many times only duration=* cannot be
> enough to accurate times in intermediaries stops.
>
> LeifRasmussen, what do you think about to attach "duration in roles"
> to complement the proposal? It is supposed to be used not in all
> stops, but only in those that have exact time to arrive/leave, or at
> least a well known usual time.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

I also created a proposal, but I knew in advance it wouldn't be practical
to duplicate full GTFS functionality in OSM:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_timetables

I'm creating this proposal, which does have information about the operators
/ agencies, which we don't have yet and which would be maintainable, but I
should work some more on properly defining it:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport_agencies

Polyglot

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:24 AM santamariense  wrote:

> > The last edit on that proposals says
> >
> > 'Made this proposal abandoned and noted that it has been replaced by the
> > proposed key "departures"' So look there?
>
> Yup. I've already read all proposal and it's no too clear for me where
> departures=* and interval=* go. I've understood that they go in the
> route relation itself. Or would it be in a public_transport=timetable
> relation? If the answer is the second option, it goes in every
> bus_stop, only in the start one or all ones that have checkpoints?
>
> What are the current valid examples?
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8873463 ? Would you have full
> examples to link into wiki?
>
> I feel the proposals is poorly exemplified.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[santamariense]

> The last edit on that proposals says
>
> 'Made this proposal abandoned and noted that it has been replaced by the
> proposed key "departures"' So look there?

Yup. I've already read all proposal and it's no too clear for me where
departures=* and interval=* go. I've understood that they go in the
route relation itself. Or would it be in a public_transport=timetable
relation? If the answer is the second option, it goes in every
bus_stop, only in the start one or all ones that have checkpoints?

What are the current valid examples?
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8873463 ? Would you have full
examples to link into wiki?

I feel the proposals is poorly exemplified.

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Warin]

On 14/02/19 11:05, santamariense wrote:

Why did you abandon this proposal
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules/Timetable_relations)?
It seems to have never been voted. And, I support it.



The last edit on that proposals says

'Made this proposal abandoned and noted that it has been replaced by the 
proposed key "departures"' So look there?




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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[santamariense]

Why did you abandon this proposal
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules/Timetable_relations)?
It seems to have never been voted. And, I support it.

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Leif Rasmussen]

Hi,
Thanks for bringing up this discussion again! I have now opened up the
departures tag proposal for voting, so please feel free to vote on the
proposal if you would like. I had been tweaking it for a while, and it
seems ready now.
Thanks again,
Leif Rasmussen

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 4:54 PM Tijmen Stam  wrote:

> Jo, Leif,
>
> My sincerest apologies.
>
> I couldn't find a request to vote on this list's archives. Must have
> overlooked it.
>
> Tijmen
>
> On 11-02-19 22:51, Jo wrote:
> > The proposal was voted upon.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 9:54 PM Tijmen Stam  > > wrote:
> >
> > On 31-10-18 00:54, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
> >  > Hello everyone!
> >  > I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule
> > data.
> >  > This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information
> > about
> >  > when or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform.
> >  >
> >  >
> >
> https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules
> >  >
> >  > Please feel free to look over the page and give feedback.  I am
> very
> >  > open to changing the proposal, so let me know if you have any
> > ideas for
> >  > improvements to it.
> >  > Thanks,
> >  > Leif Rasmussen
> >
> > On January 3rd this year, Leif added the "Interval" and "duration"
> tags
> > to the wiki for bus route:
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Aroute%3Dbus=revision=1767271=1684316
> >
> > I have sideways followed this discussion, but I had the idea there
> was
> > widespread opposition for having any timetable info added to OSM.
> >
> > I don't think we should have this on the wiki without proper proposal
> > voting - or did I miss something?
> >
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Tijmen Stam]

Jo, Leif,

My sincerest apologies.

I couldn't find a request to vote on this list's archives. Must have 
overlooked it.


Tijmen

On 11-02-19 22:51, Jo wrote:

The proposal was voted upon.

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 9:54 PM Tijmen Stam > wrote:


On 31-10-18 00:54, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
 > Hello everyone!
 > I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule
data.
 > This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information
about
 > when or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform.
 >
 >
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules
 >
 > Please feel free to look over the page and give feedback.  I am very
 > open to changing the proposal, so let me know if you have any
ideas for
 > improvements to it.
 > Thanks,
 > Leif Rasmussen

On January 3rd this year, Leif added the "Interval" and "duration" tags
to the wiki for bus route:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Aroute%3Dbus=revision=1767271=1684316

I have sideways followed this discussion, but I had the idea there was
widespread opposition for having any timetable info added to OSM.

I don't think we should have this on the wiki without proper proposal
voting - or did I miss something?

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Markus]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2019 at 21:54, Tijmen Stam  wrote:
>
> On January 3rd this year, Leif added the "Interval" and "duration" tags
> to the wiki for bus route:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Aroute%3Dbus=revision=1767271=1684316
>
> I have sideways followed this discussion, but I had the idea there was
> widespread opposition for having any timetable info added to OSM.
>
> I don't think we should have this on the wiki without proper proposal
> voting - or did I miss something?

The interval=* key was accepted in the vote:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules/Interval

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Phake Nick]

Wasn't that only for the currently abandoned parts?

在 2019年2月12日週二 05:52，Jo  寫道：

> The proposal was voted upon.
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 9:54 PM Tijmen Stam  wrote:
>
>> On 31-10-18 00:54, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
>> > Hello everyone!
>> > I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule
>> data.
>> > This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information about
>> > when or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform.
>> >
>> > https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules
>> >
>> > Please feel free to look over the page and give feedback.  I am very
>> > open to changing the proposal, so let me know if you have any ideas for
>> > improvements to it.
>> > Thanks,
>> > Leif Rasmussen
>>
>> On January 3rd this year, Leif added the "Interval" and "duration" tags
>> to the wiki for bus route:
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Aroute%3Dbus=revision=1767271=1684316
>>
>> I have sideways followed this discussion, but I had the idea there was
>> widespread opposition for having any timetable info added to OSM.
>>
>> I don't think we should have this on the wiki without proper proposal
>> voting - or did I miss something?
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

The proposal was voted upon.

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 9:54 PM Tijmen Stam  wrote:

> On 31-10-18 00:54, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
> > Hello everyone!
> > I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule data.
> > This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information about
> > when or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform.
> >
> > https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules
> >
> > Please feel free to look over the page and give feedback.  I am very
> > open to changing the proposal, so let me know if you have any ideas for
> > improvements to it.
> > Thanks,
> > Leif Rasmussen
>
> On January 3rd this year, Leif added the "Interval" and "duration" tags
> to the wiki for bus route:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Aroute%3Dbus=revision=1767271=1684316
>
> I have sideways followed this discussion, but I had the idea there was
> widespread opposition for having any timetable info added to OSM.
>
> I don't think we should have this on the wiki without proper proposal
> voting - or did I miss something?
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Tijmen Stam]

On 31-10-18 00:54, Leif Rasmussen wrote:

Hello everyone!
I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule data.  
This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information about 
when or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform.


https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules

Please feel free to look over the page and give feedback.  I am very 
open to changing the proposal, so let me know if you have any ideas for 
improvements to it.

Thanks,
Leif Rasmussen


On January 3rd this year, Leif added the "Interval" and "duration" tags 
to the wiki for bus route: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Aroute%3Dbus=revision=1767271=1684316


I have sideways followed this discussion, but I had the idea there was 
widespread opposition for having any timetable info added to OSM.


I don't think we should have this on the wiki without proper proposal 
voting - or did I miss something?


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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

I have been using commas between the times, maybe semicolon would be better
(not for readability though).

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 14:01 schreef djakk djakk :

> Maybe we can put that optional piece of information inside the departures
> key : departures=7:40,7:45 ; 8:40,8:45 -> means the train or the bus
> arrives at the stop at 7:40 or 8:40 and leaves 5 minutes later.
>
> Arrival and departure time are separated by a comma, and different
> departures are separated by a semicolon.
>
> If no comma, it means departure time only - except for the last stop :
> means arrival time only.
>
>
> Should we use 0-24-25 hour format ? (when a trip starts at 23:45 and
> finishes 30 minutes later at 0:15, which is sometimes written 24:15 in a
> gtfs. )
>
>
> Julien “djakk”
>
>
> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 12:53, Jo  a écrit :
>
>> For buses it's exceptional they stay at a stop longer than strictly
>> necessary, so I think the arrival times should be optional. If the tag is
>> added, it should have the same amount of entries as the departures though.
>>
>> Sometimes I do see buses that 'linger' at stops, but that's usually
>> because they are ahead of their schedule by more than a few minutes.
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 12:02 schreef djakk djakk :
>>
>>> Jo, I did not try yet, but I think there should be a departure timetable
>>> AND an arrival timetable (trains often stop several minutes). And this, per
>>> stop.
>>>
>>> The mapper sees a timetable at a bus stop, he puts it directly into a
>>> relation associating the bus stop and the route. This enables to partially
>>> map the line.
>>>
>>> The first stop has departure timetable only.
>>> The last stop has arrival timetable only.
>>> An intermediate stop has both.
>>>
>>>
>>> Julien « djakk »
>>>
>>>
>>> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 11:38, Jo  a écrit :
>>>
 I took it from the official timetables and generally this line doesn't
 suffer too much from congestion. But yes. If the timetable shows bigger
 variation in delay between stops over the day, then another method would be
 necessary.

 Obviously this is what the operator plans to happen. In practice buses
 will run later than their scheduled times. We have access to real time
 information for each stop though. I think I'm going to add the direct urls
 to the stops themselves.

 For the lines/routes a direct link to a url of this kind is probably
 more helpful than trying to store all the detail:
 https://www.delijn.be/nl/lijnen/lijn/3/301.

 But I'm trying to explore how we could add timetable information for
 regions where this kind of service doesn't exist.

 Jo

 Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:22 schreef Mateusz Konieczny <
 matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both
> during night and
> during rush hour?
>
> 3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com:
>
> When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with
> role 00:00.
>
> Jo
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be
>> implemented:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history
>>
>> This is for a simple line...
>>
>> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
>> times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
>> complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion 
>> that
>> was planned for in the time tables.
>>
>> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route
>> pair.
>>
>> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
>> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>>
>> Polyglot
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :
>>
>>>
>>> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>>> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines
>>> do
>>> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris
>>> for
>>> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and
>>> hire
>>> > new drivers.
>>> >
>>>
>>> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think
>>> that
>>> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area
>>> for a
>>> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
>>> possible and practical?
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> 

Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

I created a few more for a more 'complicated' line, which changes in length.

Normal northbound:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8886015

Shortened northbound:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8886014

I used the same route relation twice, because for telescopic lines I only
mapped the longer variants.

Normal southbound:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8886013

Shortened southbound:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8886011

This one refers to another route relation than the previous one, as it does
something different for the last 2 stops, so the bus is ready to start
again on the northbound journey.

Last fare on Saturday evening only goes to the railway station:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8886012

So 5 extra relations to describe the whole timetable. To make this
manageable (and interpret what it really means in reality) we will need
dedicated tools though.

Now I'll try with a route that changes on Wednesdays, so not all weekdays
are the same, because school ends at noon on Wednesdays over here.

Polyglot

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 14:01 schreef djakk djakk :

> Maybe we can put that optional piece of information inside the departures
> key : departures=7:40,7:45 ; 8:40,8:45 -> means the train or the bus
> arrives at the stop at 7:40 or 8:40 and leaves 5 minutes later.
>
> Arrival and departure time are separated by a comma, and different
> departures are separated by a semicolon.
>
> If no comma, it means departure time only - except for the last stop :
> means arrival time only.
>
>
> Should we use 0-24-25 hour format ? (when a trip starts at 23:45 and
> finishes 30 minutes later at 0:15, which is sometimes written 24:15 in a
> gtfs. )
>
>
> Julien “djakk”
>
>
> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 12:53, Jo  a écrit :
>
>> For buses it's exceptional they stay at a stop longer than strictly
>> necessary, so I think the arrival times should be optional. If the tag is
>> added, it should have the same amount of entries as the departures though.
>>
>> Sometimes I do see buses that 'linger' at stops, but that's usually
>> because they are ahead of their schedule by more than a few minutes.
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 12:02 schreef djakk djakk :
>>
>>> Jo, I did not try yet, but I think there should be a departure timetable
>>> AND an arrival timetable (trains often stop several minutes). And this, per
>>> stop.
>>>
>>> The mapper sees a timetable at a bus stop, he puts it directly into a
>>> relation associating the bus stop and the route. This enables to partially
>>> map the line.
>>>
>>> The first stop has departure timetable only.
>>> The last stop has arrival timetable only.
>>> An intermediate stop has both.
>>>
>>>
>>> Julien « djakk »
>>>
>>>
>>> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 11:38, Jo  a écrit :
>>>
 I took it from the official timetables and generally this line doesn't
 suffer too much from congestion. But yes. If the timetable shows bigger
 variation in delay between stops over the day, then another method would be
 necessary.

 Obviously this is what the operator plans to happen. In practice buses
 will run later than their scheduled times. We have access to real time
 information for each stop though. I think I'm going to add the direct urls
 to the stops themselves.

 For the lines/routes a direct link to a url of this kind is probably
 more helpful than trying to store all the detail:
 https://www.delijn.be/nl/lijnen/lijn/3/301.

 But I'm trying to explore how we could add timetable information for
 regions where this kind of service doesn't exist.

 Jo

 Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:22 schreef Mateusz Konieczny <
 matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both
> during night and
> during rush hour?
>
> 3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com:
>
> When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with
> role 00:00.
>
> Jo
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be
>> implemented:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history
>>
>> This is for a simple line...
>>
>> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
>> times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
>> complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion 
>> that
>> was planned for in the time tables.
>>
>> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route
>> pair.
>>
>> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
>> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>>
>> Polyglot
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :
>>
>>>
>>> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>>> > I do 

Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

Maybe we can put that optional piece of information inside the departures
key : departures=7:40,7:45 ; 8:40,8:45 -> means the train or the bus
arrives at the stop at 7:40 or 8:40 and leaves 5 minutes later.

Arrival and departure time are separated by a comma, and different
departures are separated by a semicolon.

If no comma, it means departure time only - except for the last stop :
means arrival time only.


Should we use 0-24-25 hour format ? (when a trip starts at 23:45 and
finishes 30 minutes later at 0:15, which is sometimes written 24:15 in a
gtfs. )


Julien “djakk”


Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 12:53, Jo  a écrit :

> For buses it's exceptional they stay at a stop longer than strictly
> necessary, so I think the arrival times should be optional. If the tag is
> added, it should have the same amount of entries as the departures though.
>
> Sometimes I do see buses that 'linger' at stops, but that's usually
> because they are ahead of their schedule by more than a few minutes.
>
> Jo
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 12:02 schreef djakk djakk :
>
>> Jo, I did not try yet, but I think there should be a departure timetable
>> AND an arrival timetable (trains often stop several minutes). And this, per
>> stop.
>>
>> The mapper sees a timetable at a bus stop, he puts it directly into a
>> relation associating the bus stop and the route. This enables to partially
>> map the line.
>>
>> The first stop has departure timetable only.
>> The last stop has arrival timetable only.
>> An intermediate stop has both.
>>
>>
>> Julien « djakk »
>>
>>
>> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 11:38, Jo  a écrit :
>>
>>> I took it from the official timetables and generally this line doesn't
>>> suffer too much from congestion. But yes. If the timetable shows bigger
>>> variation in delay between stops over the day, then another method would be
>>> necessary.
>>>
>>> Obviously this is what the operator plans to happen. In practice buses
>>> will run later than their scheduled times. We have access to real time
>>> information for each stop though. I think I'm going to add the direct urls
>>> to the stops themselves.
>>>
>>> For the lines/routes a direct link to a url of this kind is probably
>>> more helpful than trying to store all the detail:
>>> https://www.delijn.be/nl/lijnen/lijn/3/301.
>>>
>>> But I'm trying to explore how we could add timetable information for
>>> regions where this kind of service doesn't exist.
>>>
>>> Jo
>>>
>>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:22 schreef Mateusz Konieczny <
>>> matkoni...@tutanota.com>:
>>>
 So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both
 during night and
 during rush hour?

 3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com:

 When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with
 role 00:00.

 Jo

 Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :

> Hi,
>
> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be
> implemented:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history
>
> This is for a simple line...
>
> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
> times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
> complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion 
> that
> was planned for in the time tables.
>
> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route
> pair.
>
> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>
> Polyglot
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :
>
>>
>> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines
>> do
>> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for
>> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and
>> hire
>> > new drivers.
>> >
>>
>> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think
>> that
>> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for
>> a
>> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
>> possible and practical?
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org

Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

For buses it's exceptional they stay at a stop longer than strictly
necessary, so I think the arrival times should be optional. If the tag is
added, it should have the same amount of entries as the departures though.

Sometimes I do see buses that 'linger' at stops, but that's usually because
they are ahead of their schedule by more than a few minutes.

Jo

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 12:02 schreef djakk djakk :

> Jo, I did not try yet, but I think there should be a departure timetable
> AND an arrival timetable (trains often stop several minutes). And this, per
> stop.
>
> The mapper sees a timetable at a bus stop, he puts it directly into a
> relation associating the bus stop and the route. This enables to partially
> map the line.
>
> The first stop has departure timetable only.
> The last stop has arrival timetable only.
> An intermediate stop has both.
>
>
> Julien « djakk »
>
>
> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 11:38, Jo  a écrit :
>
>> I took it from the official timetables and generally this line doesn't
>> suffer too much from congestion. But yes. If the timetable shows bigger
>> variation in delay between stops over the day, then another method would be
>> necessary.
>>
>> Obviously this is what the operator plans to happen. In practice buses
>> will run later than their scheduled times. We have access to real time
>> information for each stop though. I think I'm going to add the direct urls
>> to the stops themselves.
>>
>> For the lines/routes a direct link to a url of this kind is probably more
>> helpful than trying to store all the detail:
>> https://www.delijn.be/nl/lijnen/lijn/3/301.
>>
>> But I'm trying to explore how we could add timetable information for
>> regions where this kind of service doesn't exist.
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:22 schreef Mateusz Konieczny <
>> matkoni...@tutanota.com>:
>>
>>> So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both
>>> during night and
>>> during rush hour?
>>>
>>> 3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com:
>>>
>>> When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with
>>> role 00:00.
>>>
>>> Jo
>>>
>>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :
>>>
 Hi,

 I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be
 implemented:

 https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history

 This is for a simple line...

 I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
 times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
 complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion that
 was planned for in the time tables.

 When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route
 pair.

 I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
 (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)

 Polyglot

 Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :

>
> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do
> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for
> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire
> > new drivers.
> >
>
> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that
> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for
> a
> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
> possible and practical?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
 ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

Jo, I did not try yet, but I think there should be a departure timetable
AND an arrival timetable (trains often stop several minutes). And this, per
stop.

The mapper sees a timetable at a bus stop, he puts it directly into a
relation associating the bus stop and the route. This enables to partially
map the line.

The first stop has departure timetable only.
The last stop has arrival timetable only.
An intermediate stop has both.


Julien « djakk »


Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 11:38, Jo  a écrit :

> I took it from the official timetables and generally this line doesn't
> suffer too much from congestion. But yes. If the timetable shows bigger
> variation in delay between stops over the day, then another method would be
> necessary.
>
> Obviously this is what the operator plans to happen. In practice buses
> will run later than their scheduled times. We have access to real time
> information for each stop though. I think I'm going to add the direct urls
> to the stops themselves.
>
> For the lines/routes a direct link to a url of this kind is probably more
> helpful than trying to store all the detail:
> https://www.delijn.be/nl/lijnen/lijn/3/301.
>
> But I'm trying to explore how we could add timetable information for
> regions where this kind of service doesn't exist.
>
> Jo
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:22 schreef Mateusz Konieczny <
> matkoni...@tutanota.com>:
>
>> So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both
>> during night and
>> during rush hour?
>>
>> 3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com:
>>
>> When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with role
>> 00:00.
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be implemented:
>>>
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history
>>>
>>> This is for a simple line...
>>>
>>> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
>>> times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
>>> complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion that
>>> was planned for in the time tables.
>>>
>>> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route
>>> pair.
>>>
>>> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
>>> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>>>
>>> Polyglot
>>>
>>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :
>>>

 On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
 > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do
 > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for
 > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire
 > new drivers.
 >

 OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that
 other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for a
 period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
 possible and practical?

 Best Regards,

 Andy



 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

>>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

I took it from the official timetables and generally this line doesn't
suffer too much from congestion. But yes. If the timetable shows bigger
variation in delay between stops over the day, then another method would be
necessary.

Obviously this is what the operator plans to happen. In practice buses will
run later than their scheduled times. We have access to real time
information for each stop though. I think I'm going to add the direct urls
to the stops themselves.

For the lines/routes a direct link to a url of this kind is probably more
helpful than trying to store all the detail:
https://www.delijn.be/nl/lijnen/lijn/3/301.

But I'm trying to explore how we could add timetable information for
regions where this kind of service doesn't exist.

Jo

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:22 schreef Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both
> during night and
> during rush hour?
>
> 3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com:
>
> When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with role
> 00:00.
>
> Jo
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be implemented:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history
>>
>> This is for a simple line...
>>
>> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
>> times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
>> complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion that
>> was planned for in the time tables.
>>
>> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route
>> pair.
>>
>> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
>> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>>
>> Polyglot
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :
>>
>>>
>>> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>>> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do
>>> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for
>>> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire
>>> > new drivers.
>>> >
>>>
>>> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that
>>> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for a
>>> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
>>> possible and practical?
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Mateusz Konieczny]

So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both during 
night andduring rush hour?

3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com :


> When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with role 
> 00:00.
> Jo
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo <> winfi...@gmail.com 
> > >:
>
>> Hi,
>> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be implemented:
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history 
>> 
>>
>> This is for a simple line...
>> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common times 
>> to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more complex if 
>> these differentials change during the day due to congestion that was planned 
>> for in the time tables.
>> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route pair.
>> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation. 
>> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>> Polyglot
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend <>> ajt1...@gmail.com 
>> >> >:
>>
>>>
>>> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>>> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do 
>>> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for 
>>> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire 
>>> > new drivers.
>>> >
>>>
>>> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that 
>>> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for a 
>>> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is 
>>> possible and practical?
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
>>> 
>>>___
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with role
00:00.

Jo

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :

> Hi,
>
> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be implemented:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history
>
> This is for a simple line...
>
> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
> times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
> complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion that
> was planned for in the time tables.
>
> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route pair.
>
> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>
> Polyglot
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :
>
>>
>> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do
>> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for
>> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire
>> > new drivers.
>> >
>>
>> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that
>> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for a
>> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
>> possible and practical?
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
___
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

Hi,

I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be implemented:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history

This is for a simple line...

I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common times
to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more complex if
these differentials change during the day due to congestion that was
planned for in the time tables.

When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route pair.

I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
(telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)

Polyglot

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :

>
> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do
> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for
> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire
> > new drivers.
> >
>
> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that
> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for a
> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
> possible and practical?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Mateusz Konieczny]

3. Nov 2018 05:55 by djakk.dj...@gmail.com :


> I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do not 
> change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for example). 

 

In my city (Kraków, Poland) schedules are changed multiple times each year, 
with additional

regular changes (for example - currently there are active changes related to 
All Saints' Day 


to make reaching cemeteries easier).




Every major road reconstruction results in changed lines and arrival times.




> Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire new drivers. 
>




Not in cases where busses are moved from one line to another, potentially new 
line.

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Andy Townsend]

On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do 
not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for 
example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire 
new drivers.




OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that 
other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for a 
period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is 
possible and practical?


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

Moreover, timetables in OSM can be useful even incomplete : a mapper can
map only timetables of 2 bus stops, its local bus stop’s and the main stop
of the line (downtown’s bus stop), then you can tell users the timetable
between the bus stops of this suburb and downtown.

Julien « djakk »


Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 06:57, djakk djakk  a écrit :

> Yes I trust you ;)
> But where the bus network does not revolutionate (that exists) every 6
> months, timetables and bus stops can be in OSM ...
>
> Julien « djakk »
>
>
> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 06:20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
>> On 03/11/18 15:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>>
>> No : bus relations are broken because of the way part, not because of the
>> node part. And detailed timetables will be associated with the nodes.
>>
>> Breaking a bus relation by cutting a street way in half does not implies
>> that the osm timetable breaks too.
>>
>> I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do not
>> change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for example).
>>
>> Mine seem to change every 6 months.
>>
>> Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire new drivers.
>>
>>
>> Not here..some old buses.
>> Occasionally the driver makes a wrong turn .. and asks the passengers
>> where to go. Sometimes that is a new route, sometimes a new driver.
>>
>>
>> Julien « djakk »
>>
>>
>> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 04:48, Joseph Eisenberg 
>> a écrit :
>>
>>> It sounds like we agree: detailed timetables for every bus stop are too
>>> much to maintain, but simple service hours and intervals assigned to a
>>> route are reasonable.
>>>
>>> This would be very useful for map rendering, because an intercity bus
>>> that runs every 10 minutes is quite different than one that run once a day!
>>> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 8:57 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 I'm siding with the idea of linking to an external data-base, as
 maintaining this in OSM is going to be a nightmare :-(

 On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 08:45, Joseph Eisenberg <
 joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sure! But how many GTFS feeds are there in the whole world, compared
> to the number of towns with public transit?
>
> I’m guessing that in Europe perhaps the majority of transit operators
> publish this info, but it’s not yet universal in they USA, and in Asia and
> Africa there are 10,000+ cities with no public transit info beyond what is
> available in OSM
>

 Somebody did mention Moovit earlier: https://moovit.com/

 & here is Moovit Indonesia, which may make sense to you but means
 absolutely nothing to me! :-)

 https://moovitapp.com/index/in/Tranportasi_Umum-Indonesia


> These cities rarely run strict timetables, but the interval (ie
> headway) between buses and “open_hours) (ie span of service) would be very
> useful and verifiable info.
>

 In cases like this, when you need to know that the bus to the big city
 should leave on Monday & Thursday mornings, is a bit of a different
 situation to 100s of routes with multiple journeys, & they would be doable.

 Thanks

 Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

No : bus relations are broken because of the way part, not because of the
node part. And detailed timetables will be associated with the nodes.

Breaking a bus relation by cutting a street way in half does not implies
that the osm timetable breaks too.

I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do not
change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for example).
Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire new drivers.

Julien « djakk »


Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 04:48, Joseph Eisenberg 
a écrit :

> It sounds like we agree: detailed timetables for every bus stop are too
> much to maintain, but simple service hours and intervals assigned to a
> route are reasonable.
>
> This would be very useful for map rendering, because an intercity bus that
> runs every 10 minutes is quite different than one that run once a day!
> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 8:57 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm siding with the idea of linking to an external data-base, as
>> maintaining this in OSM is going to be a nightmare :-(
>>
>> On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 08:45, Joseph Eisenberg 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Sure! But how many GTFS feeds are there in the whole world, compared to
>>> the number of towns with public transit?
>>>
>>> I’m guessing that in Europe perhaps the majority of transit operators
>>> publish this info, but it’s not yet universal in they USA, and in Asia and
>>> Africa there are 10,000+ cities with no public transit info beyond what is
>>> available in OSM
>>>
>>
>> Somebody did mention Moovit earlier: https://moovit.com/
>>
>> & here is Moovit Indonesia, which may make sense to you but means
>> absolutely nothing to me! :-)
>>
>> https://moovitapp.com/index/in/Tranportasi_Umum-Indonesia
>>
>>
>>> These cities rarely run strict timetables, but the interval (ie headway)
>>> between buses and “open_hours) (ie span of service) would be very useful
>>> and verifiable info.
>>>
>>
>> In cases like this, when you need to know that the bus to the big city
>> should leave on Monday & Thursday mornings, is a bit of a different
>> situation to 100s of routes with multiple journeys, & they would be doable.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I'm siding with the idea of linking to an external data-base, as
maintaining this in OSM is going to be a nightmare :-(

On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 08:45, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> Sure! But how many GTFS feeds are there in the whole world, compared to
> the number of towns with public transit?
>
> I’m guessing that in Europe perhaps the majority of transit operators
> publish this info, but it’s not yet universal in they USA, and in Asia and
> Africa there are 10,000+ cities with no public transit info beyond what is
> available in OSM
>

Somebody did mention Moovit earlier: https://moovit.com/

& here is Moovit Indonesia, which may make sense to you but means
absolutely nothing to me! :-)

https://moovitapp.com/index/in/Tranportasi_Umum-Indonesia


> These cities rarely run strict timetables, but the interval (ie headway)
> between buses and “open_hours) (ie span of service) would be very useful
> and verifiable info.
>

In cases like this, when you need to know that the bus to the big city
should leave on Monday & Thursday mornings, is a bit of a different
situation to 100s of routes with multiple journeys, & they would be doable.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Joseph Eisenberg]

“In cities that publish their GTFS timetables under free licenses which
are kept current I don't see the point in duplicating this into OSM”

Sure! But how many GTFS feeds are there in the whole world, compared to the
number of towns with public transit?

I’m guessing that in Europe perhaps the majority of transit operators
publish this info, but it’s not yet universal in they USA, and in Asia and
Africa there are 10,000+ cities with no public transit info beyond what is
available in OSM

These cities rarely run strict timetables, but the interval (ie headway)
between buses and “open_hours) (ie span of service) would be very useful
and verifiable info.

Joseph

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 7:19 AM Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 19:58, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> > also burdens OSM with dead data that will not be properly maintained.
>
> This is my experience too, I've seen people add bus routes from their
> surveys into OSM but they quickly become out of date and aren't
> maintained.
>
> Some roads can have 100+ bus routes passing through them, and then
> when I need to change the road due to on the ground changes, I
> suddenly get asked by JOSM do I keep this way in the relation or not,
> and honestly I have no idea so the relation get's broken.
>
> In cities that publish their GTFS timetables under free licenses which
> are kept current I don't see the point in duplicating this into OSM at
> huge effort when I can't see any benefit.
>
> I do agree though there are cases like a small ferry route which
> doesn't publish a GTFS but does have a strict schedule, which is much
> simpler and could be added to OSM.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Andrew Harvey]

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 19:58, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> also burdens OSM with dead data that will not be properly maintained.

This is my experience too, I've seen people add bus routes from their
surveys into OSM but they quickly become out of date and aren't
maintained.

Some roads can have 100+ bus routes passing through them, and then
when I need to change the road due to on the ground changes, I
suddenly get asked by JOSM do I keep this way in the relation or not,
and honestly I have no idea so the relation get's broken.

In cities that publish their GTFS timetables under free licenses which
are kept current I don't see the point in duplicating this into OSM at
huge effort when I can't see any benefit.

I do agree though there are cases like a small ferry route which
doesn't publish a GTFS but does have a strict schedule, which is much
simpler and could be added to OSM.

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

Impossible to maintain ? Maybe but let’s give a try !


djakk


Le ven. 2 nov. 2018 à 08:23, Martin Koppenhoefer  a
écrit :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 1. Nov 2018, at 21:19, Roland Olbricht 
> wrote:
> >
> > opening_hours=...
> >for the operation times
>
>
> I’d suggest to use service_times which has the same syntax as opening
> hours but seems semantically more precise.
>
> Cheers, Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Nov 2018, at 21:19, Roland Olbricht  wrote:
> 
> opening_hours=...
>for the operation times


I’d suggest to use service_times which has the same syntax as opening hours but 
seems semantically more precise.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Agustin Rissoli]

 I do not agree with adding schedules of departures to OSM, where I live
would be almost impossible to maintain, more than 200 bus routes, most with
frequencies less than 20 minutes, with more than 50 stops each route, stops
with 15 different routes , the frequencies vary according to the time of
day, there are routes that have a frequency of 6 minutes, imagine uploading
all that information and that the company decides to change 2 minutes the
schedules, nh.
I prefer to use this proposal:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Interval to indicate
the usual frequency of each route, that would be very useful.

Saludos, Agustín-

Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

> Message-ID:
>  iwm_hfayhhqxu2ybq5xob-x6g9omur_rrdzsl...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The timetable proposal would not affect existing OSM data.  It would simply
> add new relations having existing features as members of those relations.
> If timetables are out of date for a certain route, a contributor could
> simply delete all of the timetable relations that are parents of that
> route.  Rather than maintainability being the issue, it would be actually
> re-adding the deleted data that would be hard.
> This type of data is more useful on train routes, which are better
> maintained than bus routes.  Bus routes with complex or often changing
> schedules should just be given the tags "interval" and
> "interval:conditional" and not full schedule data.
> My main point is that no harm can be done by this proposal.  If people
> don't like timetables, they can simply ignore them.  If they are not being
> maintained, the relations can easily be deleted without affecting the
> routes in place.  No harm done.  In many cases, however, bus route and
> train route schedules are very simply, and it would be a shame to not be
> able to add schedule data to those routes.
>
> Before voting, I will split up the proposal into three different proposals.
> * The "interval" tag.
> * Full ferry route timetables.
> * Timetable relations.
> This way, people can choose to approve some of the new features and vote
> against others.
>
> What do people think of the ferry route schedules proposal?  I have only
> heard feedback on bus routes so far, and I am not sure what people think of
> the ferry route system that I have come up with.  It would simply just be a
> couple of new tags added to ferry route ways.
>
> Thanks,
> Leif Rasmussen
> -- next part --
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Leif Rasmussen]

The timetable proposal would not affect existing OSM data.  It would simply
add new relations having existing features as members of those relations.
If timetables are out of date for a certain route, a contributor could
simply delete all of the timetable relations that are parents of that
route.  Rather than maintainability being the issue, it would be actually
re-adding the deleted data that would be hard.
This type of data is more useful on train routes, which are better
maintained than bus routes.  Bus routes with complex or often changing
schedules should just be given the tags "interval" and
"interval:conditional" and not full schedule data.
My main point is that no harm can be done by this proposal.  If people
don't like timetables, they can simply ignore them.  If they are not being
maintained, the relations can easily be deleted without affecting the
routes in place.  No harm done.  In many cases, however, bus route and
train route schedules are very simply, and it would be a shame to not be
able to add schedule data to those routes.

Before voting, I will split up the proposal into three different proposals.
* The "interval" tag.
* Full ferry route timetables.
* Timetable relations.
This way, people can choose to approve some of the new features and vote
against others.

What do people think of the ferry route schedules proposal?  I have only
heard feedback on bus routes so far, and I am not sure what people think of
the ferry route system that I have come up with.  It would simply just be a
couple of new tags added to ferry route ways.

Thanks,
Leif Rasmussen
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Roland Olbricht]

Hi,

Hint: you may get more qualified feedback if you use the talk-transit@ 
mailing list. This tagging@ list is a generalist mailing list intended 
to gather people with a passion to write mails.



One thing we could investigate is some sort of indication whether a bus
or train route tagged in OSM is frequent, infrequent, or rarely used -
but we'd have to find a classifier for this that is vague enough to not
change twice a year, and precise enough to still be useful (and e.g.
draw "infrequent" lines with a dashed color on a public transport map or
so).


A thing that would work in at least the Netherlands, Belgium, 
Switzerland, Austria, Germany, France, Great Britain, Denmark, Sweden, 
parts of the US (and probably numerous other countries I never have 
visitied): Mark route reations with


opening_hours=...
for the operation times

service_pattern=dense
for at least 6 services per hour on workdays from typical local
breakfast time to one hour after typical local dinner time,
3 services per hour on saturdays, sundays, and bank holidays

service_pattern=clock_face
if the service is subject to clock face scheduling

service_pattern=all_day
if there is at least about one service per hour all over the day
(again berakfast to after dinner)

service_pattern=special
if the service has limited operation times (school buses, peak hour
services, stadium extra service, night buses, and so on)

interval=...
as it exists. It is unfortunately ambiguous whether peak interval or
longest interval is indicated, but people may like to continue
information here

Using pairs of
opening_hours:evening=...
service_pattern:evening=...
or
opening_hours:evening=...
interval:evening=...
with this or other suffixes can be given as advice for people who want 
to refine the information further.


Note that this information is usually stable for decades: It derives 
from the number of rolling stock divided per travel time. Lifetime of 
rolling stock is typically between 15 years (buses with internal 
combustion engines) and 25 to 50 years (trainsets), and 1:1 replacements 
are also quite common.


The rationale for breakfast to one hour after dinner is that both 
business and touristical activity take place within that time window.
People outside that time window will know how and where to get better 
adapted and more precise information.


Bye
Roland

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[OSMDoudou]

I incidentally ran across Moovit.com, who describe themselves as the wikipedia 
of transit and are using OSM as basemap: https://moovit.com and 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moovit#Product.

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Michael Patrick]

 Globally, US DOT, the World Bank, ASFAIK all EU countries, have settled on
GTFS, or eventually will on some future version.

So there are two cases:
1. Transit Services that use GTFS
2. Transit Services that do not use GTFS

For Case 1, the General Transit Feed Specification Reference declares that
the geographical elements ( which correspond to OSM geometry types ) are to
be declared and maintained on the GTFS side, and since OSM doesn't have any
sort of permanent / persistent element ID to bind that fact, the robust
technical solution especially for complex transit system would be a
automated CRUD
 refresh of
the geometry. You're still at the mercy of OSM side latency to some extent,
but doable.

OSM would be useful in Case 2, to initially provide the geometries to a
GTFS feed not maintained by an agency - it is simply a set of .txt files,
this has been done for small local routes on GitHub. Then the technical
solution above applies. Ongoing, maintain your GTFS feed to whatever level
you feel suffices. And you could publish your feed to the registry, to
everyone's benefit.

( ... this is overly simplistic, and invokes the ball of snakes of opinions
and philosophies on automated imports, so your pretty much back to some
sort of parallel OSM implementation with the main OSM as essentially a
background layer. ).

BTW, Google Transit ( or any of the others ) do not store the data, they
rely of the GTFS feed.

Michael




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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Leif Rasmussen]

Graeme Fitzpatrick:
I have changed the proposal, and the level of detail that you describe can
now be added very easily.  At the bus stop, the proposal now states to
create one new relation for each bus route stopping at that stop and
include both the stop and the route inside each of those new relations.
Then, add the tag departures=* to mark the timetable.
See this example: https://www.osm.org/relation/8873463

Thanks,
Leif
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Tijmen Stam]

> Thanks for the feedback on this proposal!  Maintainability and corruption
> of existing features seem to be the two biggest concerns, both of which I
> have reduced in the new version of the proposal.  I really like the idea
> that Polyglot expressed on the talk page of the proposal of using a
> completely separate relation to represent a single timetable.  It is a
> completely different system that is much more elegant, versatile,
> practical, and simple.  By using a relation similar in design to turn
> restrictions, the complexity of this proposal has been reduced
> significantly.
>
> The new version of the proposal will not affect existing public transport
> routes in any way or form.  They will remain unchanged and uncorrupted,
> similarly to how turn restrictions do not affect highways in any
> noticeable
> way.  Data consumers will not have to worry about any changes to public
> transport details.
>
> https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules

As others, I strongly oppose having public transport timetables in OS

Maintainability and doubling of data are the main problems. Any data
consumer that could do something with this, could just as well source
their data from a GTFS or similar feed. I heard one commenter say he/she
hoped PT companies would add their data to OSM - I think they far earlier
would invest into having their data automatically exported into GTFS (or
another open data format, such as BISON in the Netherlands)

Another drawback is that many lines would very quickly hit the
256-character value limit. I work in public transit, and many of "my"
lines have 50 trips per direction per day (but 220 is no exception) all
leaving at slightly different minutes of the hour and having slightly
different travel times. Things aren't so simple anymore that we have a
peak, off-peak and evening/sunday service pattern, and I think you grossly
underestimate the complexity of PT timetabling.

In my view, Openstreetmap is a geographical database and in my view this
is too far from geographical data to be a valuable OSM addition.

I see one exception where timetables could be useful and valuable
addition: anywhere where a "portage" function exists, where another mode
piggybacks on a timetabled transport: Cars on ferries or train shuttles,
bicycles on public elevators, walkers on funiculars etc.

These usually have a very predictable route and timetable structure
(exceptions off course apply)
•between two nodes without intermediate stops
•Fixed start and finish times based on day and period of year
(=opening_hours, may be different per direction)
•Fixed going tmes (e.g. :20 from point a, :50 from b) ór fixed headways
(every 15 minutes)
•Very predictable transit times (e.g. always 20 minutes)
•Usually quite distinct in their use and operation from "traditional"
public transit like buses or ferries

In this way, a data consumer can make a prediction of say, an ETA of a
route that uses a ferry with tags that are not much more complicated than
an opening_hours tag.

Just my 2 cents,
Tijmen/IIVQ


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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[seirra]

this does feel like a much easier to understand idea now, it may be 
worth thinking of a way to still incorporate the interval in the second 
proposed feature, for example a local bus in my area has one every 10 
minutes for a substantial amount of time.



On 10/31/18 21:04, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
Thanks for the feedback on this proposal! Maintainability and 
corruption of existing features seem to be the two biggest concerns, 
both of which I have reduced in the new version of the proposal.  I 
really like the idea that Polyglot expressed on the talk page of the 
proposal of using a completely separate relation to represent a single 
timetable.  It is a completely different system that is much more 
elegant, versatile, practical, and simple.  By using a relation 
similar in design to turn restrictions, the complexity of this 
proposal has been reduced significantly.


The new version of the proposal will not affect existing public 
transport routes in any way or form.  They will remain unchanged and 
uncorrupted, similarly to how turn restrictions do not affect highways 
in any noticeable way.  Data consumers will not have to worry about 
any changes to public transport details.


https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules

Please let me know what you all think about the improved proposal.  
Maintainability will still be difficult, but much easier than before.  
It may also be possible for these types of relations to be added by, 
and checked for currency by, StreetComplete without much trouble.


Example of a timetable relation: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8873463


Thank you,
Leif Rasmussen


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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Leif Rasmussen]

Thanks for the feedback on this proposal!  Maintainability and corruption
of existing features seem to be the two biggest concerns, both of which I
have reduced in the new version of the proposal.  I really like the idea
that Polyglot expressed on the talk page of the proposal of using a
completely separate relation to represent a single timetable.  It is a
completely different system that is much more elegant, versatile,
practical, and simple.  By using a relation similar in design to turn
restrictions, the complexity of this proposal has been reduced
significantly.

The new version of the proposal will not affect existing public transport
routes in any way or form.  They will remain unchanged and uncorrupted,
similarly to how turn restrictions do not affect highways in any noticeable
way.  Data consumers will not have to worry about any changes to public
transport details.

https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules

Please let me know what you all think about the improved proposal.
Maintainability will still be difficult, but much easier than before.  It
may also be possible for these types of relations to be added by, and
checked for currency by, StreetComplete without much trouble.

Example of a timetable relation:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8873463

Thank you,
Leif Rasmussen
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

As others have said, it could be handy but probably better just linked to
an external data-base.

One concern I have is trying to insert a schedule for different routes that
use the same stop?

eg This bus stop has a 53 bus about every 30 minutes from 7am till 5pm; a
65 bus every 10 minutes in peak time & 20 minutes outside 24 hours a day; a
77 bus every hour, from 6 till 6; a school bus at 8am; & a long-distance /
interstate coach twice a day. (& that's not a made up example! - it's a
single bus stop near us, but I've actually simplified the details a bit :-))

How would you insert that level of detail?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Dave F]

Hi

I hope you're open to rescinding this proposal.

This data is too transient to be of benefit within the OSM database. The 
poor implemented & negligibly maintenance of opening hours is a good 
example as to why it shouldn't be added.


The numerous Public Transport schemas are a mess. Their problems need 
sorting out, not adding to. From what I've seen, most of PT's tags are 
duplicates of other which are already established & work well. See 
'public_transport=station'


'stop_areas' are a pig's ear of incomprehensibility. Even those who 
conceived it appear uncertain as to its scope.


Cheers
DaveF


On 30/10/2018 23:54, Leif Rasmussen wrote:

Hello everyone!
I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule 
data.  This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information 
about when or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform.


https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules

Please feel free to look over the page and give feedback.  I am very 
open to changing the proposal, so let me know if you have any ideas 
for improvements to it.

Thanks,
Leif Rasmussen


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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Allan Mustard]

That’s true even in parts of the developed world.  It would be useful!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 31, 2018, at 4:18 PM, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> I agree that it would be useful and reasonable to have frequency (headway’s) 
> and the days a route is served.
> 
> Here in Indonesia, most local buses do not run on a timetable, but it would 
> be very useful to know if there is one bus a day, one per hour, or one per 
> minute. This makes a huge difference, and can be verified without needing to 
> copy an official timetable, if you know the local routes.
> 
> Even back in the USA it would be useful and reasonably maintainable to record 
> the frequency of transit vehicles at different times. Something like “Mo-Fr 
> every 30m 5:30-7:00; 10m 7:00-9:00; 15m 9:00 to 15:00; 10m 15:00 to 18:00; 
> 30m 18:00 to 22:00” 
> 
> This gets you most of the information you need to make a good public transit 
> map, because you can have more frequent routes render with wider lines or 
> brighter colors. And it even provides enough info for approximate route 
> planning.
> 
> In developing countries this would probably be the highest level of detail 
> available. There are no GTFS databases for most of the non-Western world, so 
> it would be useful.
> 
> Joseph
>> On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 7:04 PM Michael Reichert  
>> wrote:
>> TL;DR I am agains this proposal. Timetables in OSM are an ugly hack.
>> Please store them outside of OSM and link them using foreign keys.
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Leif,
>> 
>> Am 31.10.18 um 00:54 schrieb Leif Rasmussen:
>> > I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule data.
>> > This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information about when
>> > or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform.
>> > 
>> > https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules
>> 
>> I think that the frequency and the days a route is served is sufficient.
>> There should not be any more details about the timetable in OSM beyond
>> that. While public transport looks simple :-) if you look at urban
>> areas, it becomes difficult to model if you go to the boundary of urban
>> areas or even into rural areas or developing countries.
>> 
>> OSM already struggles to model route relations for bus lines which have
>> 15 trips per day but 12 different variants (e.g. bus lines in rural
>> Germany). How do you deal with train lines which run on days matching
>> the following specification only?
>> 
>> > nur Fr, So
>> > auch 22.XII., 26.XII., 27.XII., 1.I., 2.I., 28.II., 6.III., 14.II.,
>> > 18.IV., 22.IV., 30.IV., 1.V., 2.V., 29.V., 30.V., 11.VI., 2.X., 30.X.
>> > nicht 21.IV., 31.V., 1.VI., 9.VI., 21.VI., 4.X.
>> >
>> > Fr = Friday
>> > So = Sunday
>> > nur … = on … only
>> > auch … = also on …
>> > nicht … = not on …
>> 
>> This specification changes every year and it can't be simplified to "Fr,
>> Su and public holidays in at least two German states". Currently, many
>> route relations don't have to be modified every year but your tagging
>> schema would force mappers to do so. And the example above is quite
>> simple. In practice, the specification is even longer because many
>> constructions to refurbish the railway network a running and lead to
>> different departures nearly every second weekend or trains don't serve
>> the whole line from start to end because parts of the line are closed on
>> some weekends/weeks during the year due to constructions.
>> 
>> How would you deal with lines which have a clear interval of 60 minutes
>> if you round all depatures and arrival times? There are a lot of train
>> lines where the times differ by a +-3 minutes through the day. Peak vs.
>> off-peak is not the reason.
>> 
>> OSM was designed to be a database for geometries with attributes. The
>> database design of OSM has some issues but I am sure that database
>> designed for public transport timetables would not require the timetable
>> to be encoded into relation membership roles and relation tags.
>> 
>> Using OSM to encode timetables looks more like a ugly hack and should be
>> solved by having some kind of foreign key as tag of the route relation
>> which is used by a separate database project under a free and open
>> license which is designed for and used to store timetable information.
>> 
>> Nobody forbids anyone to run a project for crowdsourced timetable
>> information. But it is out of scope for OSM.
>> 
>> Your tagging proposal suggests to use relation membership roles to store
>> depatures in a way like that:
>> "platform:Mo-Fr 08:40, 09:40, 10:40, 11:40, 12:40, 13:40, 14:40, 15:40,
>> 16:40, 17:10, 17:40, 18:10, 18:40, 19:40, 20:40"
>> 
>> Aren't membership roles limited to 256 characters, too?
>> 
>> In addition, your tagging schema is incompatible with the current public
>> transport tagging schema and probably all recently discussed proposals
>> which aim to replace or improve it. All of them know a role "platform".
>> From my point of view, relation 

Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I agree that it would be useful and reasonable to have frequency
(headway’s) and the days a route is served.

Here in Indonesia, most local buses do not run on a timetable, but it would
be very useful to know if there is one bus a day, one per hour, or one per
minute. This makes a huge difference, and can be verified without needing
to copy an official timetable, if you know the local routes.

Even back in the USA it would be useful and reasonably maintainable to
record the frequency of transit vehicles at different times. Something like
“Mo-Fr every 30m 5:30-7:00; 10m 7:00-9:00; 15m 9:00 to 15:00; 10m 15:00 to
18:00; 30m 18:00 to 22:00”

This gets you most of the information you need to make a good public
transit map, because you can have more frequent routes render with wider
lines or brighter colors. And it even provides enough info for approximate
route planning.

In developing countries this would probably be the highest level of detail
available. There are no GTFS databases for most of the non-Western world,
so it would be useful.

Joseph
On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 7:04 PM Michael Reichert 
wrote:

> TL;DR I am agains this proposal. Timetables in OSM are an ugly hack.
> Please store them outside of OSM and link them using foreign keys.
>
>
> Hi Leif,
>
> Am 31.10.18 um 00:54 schrieb Leif Rasmussen:
> > I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule data.
> > This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information about
> when
> > or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform.
> >
> > https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules
>
> I think that the frequency and the days a route is served is sufficient.
> There should not be any more details about the timetable in OSM beyond
> that. While public transport looks simple :-) if you look at urban
> areas, it becomes difficult to model if you go to the boundary of urban
> areas or even into rural areas or developing countries.
>
> OSM already struggles to model route relations for bus lines which have
> 15 trips per day but 12 different variants (e.g. bus lines in rural
> Germany). How do you deal with train lines which run on days matching
> the following specification only?
>
> > nur Fr, So
> > auch 22.XII., 26.XII., 27.XII., 1.I., 2.I., 28.II., 6.III., 14.II.,
> > 18.IV., 22.IV., 30.IV., 1.V., 2.V., 29.V., 30.V., 11.VI., 2.X., 30.X.
> > nicht 21.IV., 31.V., 1.VI., 9.VI., 21.VI., 4.X.
> >
> > Fr = Friday
> > So = Sunday
> > nur … = on … only
> > auch … = also on …
> > nicht … = not on …
>
> This specification changes every year and it can't be simplified to "Fr,
> Su and public holidays in at least two German states". Currently, many
> route relations don't have to be modified every year but your tagging
> schema would force mappers to do so. And the example above is quite
> simple. In practice, the specification is even longer because many
> constructions to refurbish the railway network a running and lead to
> different departures nearly every second weekend or trains don't serve
> the whole line from start to end because parts of the line are closed on
> some weekends/weeks during the year due to constructions.
>
> How would you deal with lines which have a clear interval of 60 minutes
> if you round all depatures and arrival times? There are a lot of train
> lines where the times differ by a +-3 minutes through the day. Peak vs.
> off-peak is not the reason.
>
> OSM was designed to be a database for geometries with attributes. The
> database design of OSM has some issues but I am sure that database
> designed for public transport timetables would not require the timetable
> to be encoded into relation membership roles and relation tags.
>
> Using OSM to encode timetables looks more like a ugly hack and should be
> solved by having some kind of foreign key as tag of the route relation
> which is used by a separate database project under a free and open
> license which is designed for and used to store timetable information.
>
> Nobody forbids anyone to run a project for crowdsourced timetable
> information. But it is out of scope for OSM.
>
> Your tagging proposal suggests to use relation membership roles to store
> depatures in a way like that:
> "platform:Mo-Fr 08:40, 09:40, 10:40, 11:40, 12:40, 13:40, 14:40, 15:40,
> 16:40, 17:10, 17:40, 18:10, 18:40, 19:40, 20:40"
>
> Aren't membership roles limited to 256 characters, too?
>
> In addition, your tagging schema is incompatible with the current public
> transport tagging schema and probably all recently discussed proposals
> which aim to replace or improve it. All of them know a role "platform".
> From my point of view, relation membership roles are keys. Keys should
> not contain value information.
>
> Best regards
>
> Michael
>
>
> --
> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
> ausgenommen)
> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>
>
> 

Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Michael Reichert]

TL;DR I am agains this proposal. Timetables in OSM are an ugly hack.
Please store them outside of OSM and link them using foreign keys.


Hi Leif,

Am 31.10.18 um 00:54 schrieb Leif Rasmussen:
> I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule data.
> This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information about when
> or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform.
> 
> https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules

I think that the frequency and the days a route is served is sufficient.
There should not be any more details about the timetable in OSM beyond
that. While public transport looks simple :-) if you look at urban
areas, it becomes difficult to model if you go to the boundary of urban
areas or even into rural areas or developing countries.

OSM already struggles to model route relations for bus lines which have
15 trips per day but 12 different variants (e.g. bus lines in rural
Germany). How do you deal with train lines which run on days matching
the following specification only?

> nur Fr, So
> auch 22.XII., 26.XII., 27.XII., 1.I., 2.I., 28.II., 6.III., 14.II.,
> 18.IV., 22.IV., 30.IV., 1.V., 2.V., 29.V., 30.V., 11.VI., 2.X., 30.X.
> nicht 21.IV., 31.V., 1.VI., 9.VI., 21.VI., 4.X.
>
> Fr = Friday
> So = Sunday
> nur … = on … only
> auch … = also on …
> nicht … = not on …

This specification changes every year and it can't be simplified to "Fr,
Su and public holidays in at least two German states". Currently, many
route relations don't have to be modified every year but your tagging
schema would force mappers to do so. And the example above is quite
simple. In practice, the specification is even longer because many
constructions to refurbish the railway network a running and lead to
different departures nearly every second weekend or trains don't serve
the whole line from start to end because parts of the line are closed on
some weekends/weeks during the year due to constructions.

How would you deal with lines which have a clear interval of 60 minutes
if you round all depatures and arrival times? There are a lot of train
lines where the times differ by a +-3 minutes through the day. Peak vs.
off-peak is not the reason.

OSM was designed to be a database for geometries with attributes. The
database design of OSM has some issues but I am sure that database
designed for public transport timetables would not require the timetable
to be encoded into relation membership roles and relation tags.

Using OSM to encode timetables looks more like a ugly hack and should be
solved by having some kind of foreign key as tag of the route relation
which is used by a separate database project under a free and open
license which is designed for and used to store timetable information.

Nobody forbids anyone to run a project for crowdsourced timetable
information. But it is out of scope for OSM.

Your tagging proposal suggests to use relation membership roles to store
depatures in a way like that:
"platform:Mo-Fr 08:40, 09:40, 10:40, 11:40, 12:40, 13:40, 14:40, 15:40,
16:40, 17:10, 17:40, 18:10, 18:40, 19:40, 20:40"

Aren't membership roles limited to 256 characters, too?

In addition, your tagging schema is incompatible with the current public
transport tagging schema and probably all recently discussed proposals
which aim to replace or improve it. All of them know a role "platform".
From my point of view, relation membership roles are keys. Keys should
not contain value information.

Best regards

Michael


-- 
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ausgenommen)
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

Moreover, GTFS always have some errors, as they are maintained by only a
few people.


djakk


Le mer. 31 oct. 2018 à 10:17, Topographe Fou  a
écrit :

> Hi Leif,
>
> I would rather consider the ability to store a "GTFS API link" (or
> something similar) in transport relations. As soon as its stops are well
> referenced, then an app will have everything it needs with nearly no need
> from users to update them (and ability to automatically detect missing or
> extra stops for QA tools).
>
> Yours
>
> LeTopographeFou
> *De:* 354...@gmail.com
> *Envoyé:* 31 octobre 2018 1:26 AM
> *À:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Répondre à:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Objet:* [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC
>
> Hello everyone!
> I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule data.
> This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information about when
> or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform.
>
> https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules
>
> Please feel free to look over the page and give feedback.  I am very open
> to changing the proposal, so let me know if you have any ideas for
> improvements to it.
> Thanks,
> Leif Rasmussen
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Topographe Fou]

  Hi Leif,I would rather consider the ability to store a "GTFS API link" (or something similar) in transport relations. As soon as its stops are well referenced, then an app will have everything it needs with nearly no need from users to update them (and ability to automatically detect missing or extra stops for QA tools).YoursLeTopographeFou   De: 354...@gmail.comEnvoyé: 31 octobre 2018 1:26 AMÀ: tagging@openstreetmap.orgRépondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.orgObjet: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC  Hello everyone!I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule data.  This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information about when or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform. https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedulesPlease feel free to look over the page and give feedback.  I am very open to changing the proposal, so let me know if you have any ideas for improvements to it.Thanks,Leif Rasmussen
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

If we allow timetables in OSM, transit companies will possibly maintain
directly them through OSM ;)

There is a lot of non-geographical informations in OSM like the opening
hours of a shop so public transport schedule does not shocked me :)


djakk

Le mer. 31 oct. 2018 à 09:58, Frederik Ramm  a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> On 31.10.2018 00:54, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
> > I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule data.
> > This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information about
> > when or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform.
>
> Surveying that is hard, and the results only valid for half a year or a
> year at best.
>
> Copying the information may violate a third party's database right, and
> also burdens OSM with dead data that will not be properly maintained.
>
> Therefore I don't think public transport schedules have a place in OSM.
>
> One thing we could investigate is some sort of indication whether a bus
> or train route tagged in OSM is frequent, infrequent, or rarely used -
> but we'd have to find a classifier for this that is vague enough to not
> change twice a year, and precise enough to still be useful (and e.g.
> draw "infrequent" lines with a dashed color on a public transport map or
> so).
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 31.10.2018 00:54, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
> I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule data. 
> This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information about
> when or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform. 

Surveying that is hard, and the results only valid for half a year or a
year at best.

Copying the information may violate a third party's database right, and
also burdens OSM with dead data that will not be properly maintained.

Therefore I don't think public transport schedules have a place in OSM.

One thing we could investigate is some sort of indication whether a bus
or train route tagged in OSM is frequent, infrequent, or rarely used -
but we'd have to find a classifier for this that is vague enough to not
change twice a year, and precise enough to still be useful (and e.g.
draw "infrequent" lines with a dashed color on a public transport map or
so).

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

Op wo 31 okt. 2018 om 09:31 schreef djakk djakk :

> Hello ! I think it’s a good idea to “replace” GTFS files with OSM data.
>
> In OSM there is already half of the GTFS (the relations that describes
> stops and route).
>

We have the part of GTFS that makes sense to have in a geographical
database. That's only 10-15% of what is found in a GTFS file though, not
50%. We're already struggling to keep that part up-to-date. I'm not
convinced either it would be a good idea to try and add timetable data into
OSM. Doing it in full detail gets very complex, very fast, due to all the
exceptions and not doing it in full detail is not useful to begin with.
For irregular services like school buses or market buses, it may make sense
to use an opening hours scheme as they only function 2 times a day or 1 day
per week. For metro lines it may make sense to indicate whether to expect 1
every 5 or 1 every 15 minutes.

Polyglot
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Volker Schmidt]

It is generally a bad idea to store data twice in different places. Any
database expert will agree with that.
It's a simple question of data maintanance.
OSM is being suffocated with imports/insertion of data that are maintained
outside OSM, and hence needs regular re-import or manual update:
buildings, landuse, monumental trees, publc transport routes, whatever, and
now even time tables of public transpiort.
How on earth can we maintain all that stuff in a single data base with our
manpower?
And as we cannot maintain our data copies in OSM, they will drift apart
from the originals from the moment they are imported/inserted. No
reasonable person would trust public transport timetables that are in OSM.

My five Eurocents.

Volker





On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 09:02, OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:

> As you don't provide more details, this statement reads as a personal
> preference and isn't helping in improving the proposal of enabling public
> transport routing. Can you make a more factual and informative explanation
> as to how it would be bad for OSM to contain timetable data? The proposal
> mentions a number of interesting use cases. Thx.
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

Hello ! I think it’s a good idea to “replace” GTFS files with OSM data.

In OSM there is already half of the GTFS (the relations that describes
stops and route).

Most lines of big cities can be map with frequency only (subway every 90
seconds during rush hour, 3 minutes otherwise).


djakk



Le mer. 31 oct. 2018 à 09:02, OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> a écrit :

> As you don't provide more details, this statement reads as a personal
> preference and isn't helping in improving the proposal of enabling public
> transport routing. Can you make a more factual and informative explanation
> as to how it would be bad for OSM to contain timetable data? The proposal
> mentions a number of interesting use cases. Thx.
> ___
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[OSMDoudou]

As you don't provide more details, this statement reads as a personal preference and isn't helping in improving the proposal of enabling public transport routing. Can you make a more factual and informative explanation as to how it would be bad for OSM to contain timetable data? The proposal mentions a number of interesting use cases. Thx.


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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[OSMDoudou]

A couple of thoughts:

- The schedules I know have values different for week days and week-ends and again for school holidays, so I wonder if the depature tag value (as well as the other timetable tags) of frequent departure lines will not run into the 255 character limit. This is similar to the opening_hours tag which was discussed recently [1]. This possible issue should be looked into: based on real data: how likely is it to happen, and how can the tagging scheme circumvent the limit?

- As the proposal mentions, there exist public and maintained sources of data (GTFS). Can you discuss how this proposal will not result on the long run in duplicating these data, thus requiring double maintenance? Wouldn't it be better to interface and integrate this external data (like with wikimedia tag)?

[1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-October/039889.html



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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Tom Pfeifer]

I am strongly against storing timetable data in OSM.

tom

On 31.10.2018 00:54, Leif Rasmussen wrote:

Hello everyone!
I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule data.  This information would 
allow OpenStreetMap to store information about when or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a 
platform.


https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules

Please feel free to look over the page and give feedback.  I am very open to changing the proposal, 
so let me know if you have any ideas for improvements to it.

Thanks,
Leif Rasmussen


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[Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Leif Rasmussen]

Hello everyone!
I recently wrote up a proposal page for public transport schedule data.
This information would allow OpenStreetMap to store information about when
or how often certain buses or trains arrive at a platform.

https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_schedules

Please feel free to look over the page and give feedback.  I am very open
to changing the proposal, so let me know if you have any ideas for
improvements to it.
Thanks,
Leif Rasmussen
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