Re: [Tagging] Should greenhouse et al have building=yes? (was building=digester)

[Dave Swarthout]

On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 2:18 AM, Joachim  wrote:

> And I'm surprised about your proposal amenity=greenhouse ;) It's a bad
> tag since a greenhouse is not an amenity. It's usage count is around
> 300, please don't promote.
>

Agree. A greenhouse is not an amenity. If plants are sold inside some sort
of shop key could be employed or perhaps landuse=greenhouse_horticulture.

-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Should greenhouse et al have building=yes? (was building=digester)

[johnw]

> On May 21, 2016, at 6:43 PM, Martin Simon  wrote:
> 
> Some are tent-like, some have a rigid steel structure that supports itself.


This is an interesting question. In my area, there are thousands of 
greenhouses, or as they are called in Japanese “Vinyl Houses” (Vinyl meaning 
any thin Plastic).

They are tent-like and have a steel supporting structure that fits together 
like tent poles. hundreds of tent poles. They are basically giant umbrellas.

https://goo.gl/maps/cZnHEEKHsup

The greenhouses are built out of a rigid tubular frame - many of them out of 
~20mm tubing with some .1 or .2 plastic stretched over it, and some plastic 
strapping placed over it all to hold the plastic sheets onto the frame - 
similar to the straps found wrapped around heavy packages in a store.  

Some are taller because they use 6CM square metal poles on  buried precast 
concrete anchors to lift up the center section.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/12422831963/in/album-72157640754351584/ 

This one (on the right) is next to my house. it collapsed 3 hours later under 
heavy snow. 

many are left in place for decades, but the plastic and poles are periodically 
changed as they are damaged by wind and snow and typhoons. 

farmers can set them up in a day and pull off the plastic for the winter. They 
never seem “permanent” like a house or even a shed. but they often get left in 
the same spot for a really really long time.

People put blue or black tarps over them instead of clear plastic. are they 
then garages? are those buildings?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/6752512409/in/album-72157638113676925/ 

https://goo.gl/maps/cy2ASrQLP2t  (all 
destroyed by snow in 2014) 


if the plastic gets taken off in the winter, does it become a trellis? is that 
a building?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/3877443370/in/album-72157638113676925/ 


if they are over a vinyard - is the vinyard in a “building”? They put the 
plastic over the frames in summer to keep the birds and rain off the grapes. 

https://goo.gl/maps/T2z7GCs1ecq  
https://goo.gl/maps/gCLPy9Taye72  

These are in an orchard. They are growing shiitake mushrooms with black plastic 
draped over it. 
https://goo.gl/maps/AHdSWF6Zw1U2 



But this is in contrast to the few actual “greenhouses” - permanent buildings 
with walls and glass /thick plastic panes for windows. is that a glasshouse or 
a greenhouse?

https://goo.gl/maps/WbPGHqeVZvL2  here is a 
permanent greenhouse with permanent sides. this is a building. 

I would map permanent “glasshosues” as buildings, but these plastic umbrella 
tents over some strawberries or tomatoes or a tractor? Are they really 
Buildings?  I wish they got their own render with a different color than 
“building”, perhaps a much lighter shade. even a shed is more permanent.  

the issue I run into is that there are “well built” tent ones as well. 
https://goo.gl/maps/24gkLALTnwT2 

https://goo.gl/maps/VHX2ZzhTnPK2 

All were destroyed in 2014 by 30CM of snow. 

Where to daw the line seems fuzzy - but if your main building material is the 
same plastic they make disposable umbrellas out of, it doesn’t feel like a 
building. 

Javbw


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Re: [Tagging] Should greenhouse et al have building=yes? (was building=digester)

[Joachim]

2016-05-22 10:31 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :
> I am surprised by his long discussion
>
> Two (extreme) examples:
> http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/70186603/
> amenity=greenhouse
> building=no
>
> http://www.ortobotanicopd.it/il-giardino-della-biodiversit%C3%A0
> amenity=greenhouse
> building=yes
>

And I'm surprised about your proposal amenity=greenhouse ;) It's a bad
tag since a greenhouse is not an amenity. It's usage count is around
300, please don't promote.

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Re: [Tagging] Should greenhouse et al have building=yes? (was building=digester)

[Volker Schmidt]

I am surprised by his long discussion

Two (extreme) examples:
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/70186603/
amenity=greenhouse
building=no

http://www.ortobotanicopd.it/il-giardino-della-biodiversit%C3%A0
amenity=greenhouse
building=yes

The two tags are orthogonal.



On 22 May 2016 at 07:59, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> I see, but the extra building is probably caused by the fact that a
> man_made area is not rendered in many cases. (which was also mentioned
> by traveling_salesman during the discussion why added
> building=digester
>
> Is building=yes a good addition,  or should we add building=windmill
> to man_made=windmill.
> In which case we repeat the same information. What do you think ?
>
> regards
>
> m
>
> On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> > On 21/05/2016 06:37, Marc Gemis wrote:
> >>
> >> No, I wouldn't expect that, but I would expect e.g. windmill,
> >> watermill and lighthouse to be displayed as building as well. I
> >> couldn't find those in your style. I'm talking about mills where work
> >> and living are often combined into one. Maybe this is a country
> >> specific view ?
> >
> >
> > When I looked at the data (in the UK) those items either already had
> > building=yes tagged on them or were just mapped as nodes (where a
> building
> > tag is essentially irrelevant for rendering).
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
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Re: [Tagging] Should greenhouse et al have building=yes? (was building=digester)

[Marc Gemis]

I see, but the extra building is probably caused by the fact that a
man_made area is not rendered in many cases. (which was also mentioned
by traveling_salesman during the discussion why added
building=digester

Is building=yes a good addition,  or should we add building=windmill
to man_made=windmill.
In which case we repeat the same information. What do you think ?

regards

m

On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 21/05/2016 06:37, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>
>> No, I wouldn't expect that, but I would expect e.g. windmill,
>> watermill and lighthouse to be displayed as building as well. I
>> couldn't find those in your style. I'm talking about mills where work
>> and living are often combined into one. Maybe this is a country
>> specific view ?
>
>
> When I looked at the data (in the UK) those items either already had
> building=yes tagged on them or were just mapped as nodes (where a building
> tag is essentially irrelevant for rendering).
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Should greenhouse et al have building=yes? (was building=digester)

[Andy Townsend]

On 21/05/2016 06:37, Marc Gemis wrote:

No, I wouldn't expect that, but I would expect e.g. windmill,
watermill and lighthouse to be displayed as building as well. I
couldn't find those in your style. I'm talking about mills where work
and living are often combined into one. Maybe this is a country
specific view ?


When I looked at the data (in the UK) those items either already had 
building=yes tagged on them or were just mapped as nodes (where a 
building tag is essentially irrelevant for rendering).


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Should greenhouse et al have building=yes? (was building=digester)

[Martin Simon]

If it's not a temporary structure (some greenhouses are only set up when
they are needed), it should be tagged as building=greenhouse, imho. As
Martin already noted, there are different types. Some are tent-like, some
have a rigid steel structure that supports itself.
Can I ask a silly question at this stage - taking something like a
greenhouse, would someone ever treat it differently depending on whether it
has a building tag or not?

In my case when trying to figure out how to render things like this the
answer was "no":

https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L608

but in some cases a building tag was used as a cue for some other rendering:

https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L1502

If a greenhouse is a greenhouse, regardless of whether or not it has a
building tag in OSM, surely it doesn't matter whether or not it is tagged
building=yes?

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Should greenhouse et al have building=yes? (was building=digester)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 21 mag 2016, alle ore 07:37, Marc Gemis  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> but I would expect e.g. windmill,
> watermill and lighthouse to be displayed as building as well


+1
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Re: [Tagging] Should greenhouse et al have building=yes? (was building=digester)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 21 mag 2016, alle ore 01:20, Andy Townsend  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> If a greenhouse is a greenhouse, regardless of whether or not it has a 
> building tag in OSM, surely it doesn't matter whether or not it is tagged 
> building=yes?


a greenhouse isn't a greenhouse, there are greenhouses and greenhouses, some of 
them are buildings some aren't (maybe), likely it can be suitable to render 
some greenhouses different than others. In the end it depends what you want to 
show in your rendering (whether all greenhouses are rendered the same or if you 
make some distinction).
But here we should focus on what to represent how in tagging, so that someone 
else can decide what he wants to show and how to style it.

The tag we are discussing is building=greenhouse not building=yes


cheers,
Martin 
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[Tagging] Should greenhouse et al have building=yes? (was building=digester)

[Andy Townsend]

Can I ask a silly question at this stage - taking something like a 
greenhouse, would someone ever treat it differently depending on whether 
it has a building tag or not?


In my case when trying to figure out how to render things like this the 
answer was "no":


https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L608

but in some cases a building tag was used as a cue for some other rendering:

https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L1502

If a greenhouse is a greenhouse, regardless of whether or not it has a 
building tag in OSM, surely it doesn't matter whether or not it is 
tagged building=yes?


Cheers,

Andy


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