Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Peter Elderson]

Typical dutch pedestrian crossing is the zebra crossing, it has legal
status.
The only other areas where pedestrians go first is on a living_street (with
the official sign), and on the sidewalk and pedestrian areas.

The idea here is not that the pedestrians are crosssing the road, but
traffic are crossing a continuous sidewalk (just like a dirveway exit)
hence pedestrians go first.

Often there also is a continuous cycleway to cross.

The street exit may or may not have a bump, table, lining, lining bricks.
There is no absolute requirement, except that it is recognizable
exit-style. In practice, it is the continuous pedestrian pavement and
lowered kerb which determine the exit_style. There should be no traffic
signs nor shark teeth; precedence is implied.

The consequence is that all traffic including pedestrians have precedence
over all traffic coming from the street exit (or entering it). This
includes traffic turning left or right into the exit, which would have to
yield anyway, but also traffic coming from across the road if there is a
regular street opposite the exit. Does that happen? Yes, it does. I just
crossed one on my bicycle.

Officially, there is no special speed limit on the street exit. There is a
rule: it counts as a special manoeuvre, which means: whatever happens, it's
your fault!

Nice to hear that Germany has them as well. We're not alone!

Op di 19 jun. 2018 03:14 schreef Paul Johnson :

> Looks like a pretty typical Dutch pedestrian crossing?  They're pretty
> good about organizing things so as to be unambiguously obvious when you do
> and don't have the right of way in regards to nonmotorized traffic.
>
> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 1:28 AM, Peter Elderson 
> wrote:
>
>> The street is residential, but the exit is over a sidewalk, with a
>> dropped curb. That's the piece I'm talking about: not the street, just the
>> exit.
>>
>> Rules (legally) implied are that traffic can pass over this sidewalk, but
>> has to give way to all sides and all others including pedestrians. Speed is
>> limited to 15 Kmph (living_street rules).
>>
>> 2018-06-15 8:16 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> sent from a phone
>>>
>>> > On 15. Jun 2018, at 08:04, Peter Elderson  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > "If it looks like a driveway exit, treat it like a driveway exit" is
>>> the idea. Don't bother with signs, just use more sidewalk pavement.
>>>
>>>
>>> For me this piece of street does not look like a driveway, I would call
>>> it a residential street. In Germany it would probably be a living street.
>>>
>>> Are there particular rules implied by the paving?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Vr gr Peter Elderson
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Paul Johnson]

I wouldn't call it unmarked; uncontrolled would be more like it.  The
markings are just a permanent fixture of the surface in this case, kinda
like how some American towns use brickwork instead of paint for crosswalks

.

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 2:18 AM, marc marc 
wrote:

> it look like a pedistrian crossing and a traffic calming
> highway=crossing + crossing=unmarked
> traffic_calming=table
>
> if the standard maxspeed for a traffic_calming is not the same
> as for a "street exit", the easy think todo is to create a new
> traffic_calming value like traffic_calming=street_exit
>
>
> Le 15. 06. 18 à 09:10, Peter Elderson a écrit :
> > Speed limit is only implied for the part crossing the sidewalk. The
> > street behind it can have different speed limits, usually it is part of
> > a "30 Kmph zone", but that is not implied or necessary.
> >
> > The level of detail: sidewalks and kerbs are not usually mapped. It's
> > not realistic to start doing that just for these "exit constructions".
> > In fact, the exit may have dropped kerbs, but it might be a fat line or
> > double line, a line of different paving, a traffic bump or just that the
> > sidewalk paving stops.
> > Similar considerations for separate tagging of other details of paving,
> > elevation, lining. These are not fixed. The key element is that you
> > cross a sidewalk (and/or cycling lane).
> >
> > Speed signs, give-way signs, shark teeth, stop-lines, bump warnings may
> > or may not be present. The idea is that all or most signs can be
> > removed: a. You are coming form an exit so slow down and give way! b.
> > It's coming from the right but it's an exit so move on!
> >
> > We're looking for a simple way to indicate what's there without tagging
> > all the details and implications separately.
> >
> > 2018-06-15 8:42 GMT+02:00  > >:
> >
> > *From:*Peter Elderson  > >
> > *Sent:* Friday, 15 June 2018 16:29
> > *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> > mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>>
> > *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] Street exits
> >
> > __ __
> >
> > The street is residential, but the exit is over a sidewalk, with a
> > dropped curb. That's the piece I'm talking about: not the street,
> > just the exit.
> >
> > __ __
> >
> > Rules (legally) implied are that traffic can pass over this
> > sidewalk, but has to give way to all sides and all others including
> > pedestrians. Speed is limited to 15 Kmph (living_street rules).
> >
> > __ __
> >
> > __ __
> >
> > Only for that part where it crosses the sidewalk, or for the whole
> > street behind it?
> >
> > __ __
> >
> > As I’m normally mapping the kerb lines (way along the position of
> > the kerb, with barrier=kerb and kerb=raised/lowered/rolled/flush) I
> > would in this place have the highway crossing that kerb line, and
> > would create an intersecting node (again tagged as barrier=kerb,
> > kerb=lowered) (the same as when I’m mapping individual driveways,
> > see: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-27.21152/153.02620
> >  ).
> > But not everyone wants to map to this level of detail.
> >
> > __ __
> >
> > Maybe just a single barrier=kerb, kerb=lowered node on the highway
> > to indicate that it has to cross the kerb?
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Vr gr Peter Elderson
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Paul Johnson]

Looks like a pretty typical Dutch pedestrian crossing?  They're pretty good
about organizing things so as to be unambiguously obvious when you do and
don't have the right of way in regards to nonmotorized traffic.

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 1:28 AM, Peter Elderson  wrote:

> The street is residential, but the exit is over a sidewalk, with a dropped
> curb. That's the piece I'm talking about: not the street, just the exit.
>
> Rules (legally) implied are that traffic can pass over this sidewalk, but
> has to give way to all sides and all others including pedestrians. Speed is
> limited to 15 Kmph (living_street rules).
>
> 2018-06-15 8:16 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> > On 15. Jun 2018, at 08:04, Peter Elderson  wrote:
>> >
>> > "If it looks like a driveway exit, treat it like a driveway exit" is
>> the idea. Don't bother with signs, just use more sidewalk pavement.
>>
>>
>> For me this piece of street does not look like a driveway, I would call
>> it a residential street. In Germany it would probably be a living street.
>>
>> Are there particular rules implied by the paving?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Tobias Wrede]

Hi,

Am 15.06.2018 um 18:14 schrieb osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au:


They DO have exactly this type of living street in the Netherlands 
too, see https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf


But the particular street Peter is talking about is, on purpose, NOT 
such a living street.


The street itself is a normal residential street, with sidewalks and 
raised kerbs. You can easily see that if you follow it along with 
streetview.


The only thing “special” about it is the way how they designed the 
point where it exits into the other street.


I can’t remember having seen this particular design (exit into another 
street designed like a living street or driveway, but the street 
itself being just a normal street) anywhere else.




Actually, we have the same thing in Germany. It's not only for living 
streets as Martin already pointed out but also for any other streets 
exiting over a lowered curb. Traffic exiting from such street has to 
behave the same way as when exiting from a driveway, i. e. drive with 
extreme caution and wait for any other traffic including pedestrians to 
pass (§10 StVO). I have no clue, though, if there is any established 
tagging for that here.


Tobias


Cheers,

Thorsten

*From:*yo paseopor 
*Sent:* Saturday, 16 June 2018 01:59
*To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 


*Subject:* Re: [Tagging] Street exits

In Spain when we have this kind of exit applies the traffic sign and 
the rules of living street, as you can see in
https://www.google.nl/maps/@41.2187293,1.7332079,3a,44.9y,155.43h,88.86t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1swoQsNOW-rj_haPcAnawoYw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i40 
<https://www.google.nl/maps/@41.2187293,1.7332079,3a,44.9y,155.43h,88.86t/data=%213m9%211e1%213m7%211swoQsNOW-rj_haPcAnawoYw%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%219m2%211b1%212i40> 
, a normal street becomes living at the end and the exit to another 
"normal street". In OSM is 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/41.21845/1.73337


I'm wondering if instead of not having the same traffic sign it would 
be the same thing...


Salut i mapes

yopaseopor



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[osm.tagging]

They DO have exactly this type of living street in the Netherlands too, see 
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf

 

But the particular street Peter is talking about is, on purpose, NOT such a 
living street.

 

The street itself is a normal residential street, with sidewalks and raised 
kerbs. You can easily see that if you follow it along with streetview.

 

The only thing “special” about it is the way how they designed the point where 
it exits into the other street.

 

I can’t remember having seen this particular design (exit into another street 
designed like a living street or driveway, but the street itself being just a 
normal street) anywhere else.

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

 

From: yo paseopor  
Sent: Saturday, 16 June 2018 01:59
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Street exits

 

In Spain when we have this kind of exit applies the traffic sign and the rules 
of living street, as you can see in 
https://www.google.nl/maps/@41.2187293,1.7332079,3a,44.9y,155.43h,88.86t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1swoQsNOW-rj_haPcAnawoYw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i40
 , a normal street becomes living at the end and the exit to another "normal 
street". In OSM is https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/41.21845/1.73337

I'm wondering if instead of not having the same traffic sign it would be the 
same thing...

 

Salut i mapes

yopaseopor

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[yo paseopor]

In Spain when we have this kind of exit applies the traffic sign and the
rules of living street, as you can see in
https://www.google.nl/maps/@41.2187293,1.7332079,3a,44.9y,155.43h,88.86t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1swoQsNOW-rj_haPcAnawoYw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i40
, a normal street becomes living at the end and the exit to another "normal
street". In OSM is https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/41.21845/1.73337
I'm wondering if instead of not having the same traffic sign it would be
the same thing...


Salut i mapes
yopaseopor
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Peter Elderson]

The side street used to be a special living_street exactly like the calle
resedincial but the signs have been removed.
Now it's a regular street, where the 30-Km zone applies. It's just the exit
of the side street onto the bigger street we're talking about. I do think
that part resembles a living area more than the side street itself, which
has sidewalks, elevated kerbs (except where the exit begins) and children
should not play on the street.

On the exit part on the sidewalk paving, children can and do play. Parents
of course teach them to step aside when a car comes.

Answering another remark about UK T-crossings: the "dutch_street_exit" can
be, and often is, opposite another exit, or a regular road, to which normal
preference rules apply.

Is this type of street_exit exclusively dutch, i wonder?

2018-06-15 16:26 GMT+02:00 yo paseopor :

> In Spain this would be a living_street, the sidewalk is at the same level
> and the structure of the street does not allow speed faster than 20. Also I
> have to say the start of the bigger is street is a 30 Zone .
> https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9637944,4.6107321,3a,40.3y,
> 302.01h,81.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sC_F6n_roU1i10R-RCah1eA!
> 2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>
> Also in Spain we have this traffic sign http://www.autoescuela.
> tv/ver_senyal-180-S-dosocho-Calle_residencial and you can see it at the
> start of every street of this kind.
>
> Salut i mapes
> yopaseopor
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 8:05 AM Peter Elderson 
> wrote:
>
>> In Nederland we have a growing number of  "exit constructions", where
>> traffic has to cross a section of sidewalk to join the larger road. There
>> is no traffic sign for this, it is indicated by the construction and lining
>> of the join section. "If it looks like a driveway exit, treat it like a
>> driveway exit" is the idea. Don't bother with signs, just use more sidewalk
>> pavement.
>>
>> https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9663779,4.6074315,3a,75y,
>> 14.43h,78.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8uG7mHF9cw2n65XprKze0w!
>> 2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>>
>>
>> This has (legal and practical) implications for speed and right of way:
>> traffic coming from an exit construction has to give way to all sides, to
>> all traffic including pedestrians, and maxspeed = 15 Kmph.
>>
>> Some mappers want to tag this so it could be rendered and routed taking
>> speed limit and right of way into account.
>>
>> The easiest solution is to tag the end of the joining road (where traffic
>> crosses the sidewalk) with an exiting or new highway tag, defining it as a
>> section which can be crossed (and routed) but has to give way to all, and
>> limits speed.
>>
>> Any thoughts on this?
>>
>> --
>> Vr gr Peter Elderson
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>


-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[yo paseopor]

In Spain this would be a living_street, the sidewalk is at the same level
and the structure of the street does not allow speed faster than 20. Also I
have to say the start of the bigger is street is a 30 Zone .
https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9637944,4.6107321,3a,40.3y,302.01h,81.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sC_F6n_roU1i10R-RCah1eA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Also in Spain we have this traffic sign
http://www.autoescuela.tv/ver_senyal-180-S-dosocho-Calle_residencial and
you can see it at the start of every street of this kind.

Salut i mapes
yopaseopor




On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 8:05 AM Peter Elderson  wrote:

> In Nederland we have a growing number of  "exit constructions", where
> traffic has to cross a section of sidewalk to join the larger road. There
> is no traffic sign for this, it is indicated by the construction and lining
> of the join section. "If it looks like a driveway exit, treat it like a
> driveway exit" is the idea. Don't bother with signs, just use more sidewalk
> pavement.
>
>
> https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9663779,4.6074315,3a,75y,14.43h,78.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8uG7mHF9cw2n65XprKze0w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>
>
> This has (legal and practical) implications for speed and right of way:
> traffic coming from an exit construction has to give way to all sides, to
> all traffic including pedestrians, and maxspeed = 15 Kmph.
>
> Some mappers want to tag this so it could be rendered and routed taking
> speed limit and right of way into account.
>
> The easiest solution is to tag the end of the joining road (where traffic
> crosses the sidewalk) with an exiting or new highway tag, defining it as a
> section which can be crossed (and routed) but has to give way to all, and
> limits speed.
>
> Any thoughts on this?
>
> --
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Peter Elderson]

You are right, there is no legal source. De traffic regulations just state
that using an exit is a special manoeuvre, which means that you have to let
all other traffic (including pedestrians) go first.  In practice this would
mean a near standstill, then when everything is clear accelerate to
"stapvoets" (walking speed). "Stapvoets" has been redefined as max 15 Kmph.
Pretty steep walking speed, I think But it is not explicitly applied to
driveway-exits and the new
highway_exits_that_are_supposed_to_act_like_driveway_exits. Now there's a
tag to remember.

2018-06-15 11:23 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale :

> On 2018-06-15 08:28, Peter Elderson wrote:
>
> Speed is limited to 15 Kmph (living_street rules).
>
>
> Peter, have you got a source for this 15kph maxspeed (wegenverkeerswet)
> for an uitrit that is not a living street? It may be sensible, given the
> priority rules and the physical construction, but I don't believe there is
> any legal basis for a maxspeed as such, is there?
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>


-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Colin Smale]

On 2018-06-15 08:28, Peter Elderson wrote:

> Speed is limited to 15 Kmph (living_street rules).

Peter, have you got a source for this 15kph maxspeed (wegenverkeerswet)
for an uitrit that is not a living street? It may be sensible, given the
priority rules and the physical construction, but I don't believe there
is any legal basis for a maxspeed as such, is there?___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Marc Gemis]

depends on the country, for Belgium:
https://wegcode.be/index.php?option=com_content=article=183:art22ter=48:kb-01121975=48
 (maxspeed 30)
On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 10:46 AM Peter Elderson  wrote:
>
> There might or might not be a traffic_calming table or bump. Bumps and tables 
> do not imply maxspeed or precedence.
>
> 2018-06-15 10:25 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 10:09 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I would tag a node
>> >
>> > highway=give_way
>> >
>> > traffic_calming=table
>>
>> For a traffic calming table, I would expect to see a "up" and a bit
>> further a "down", I only see up here (coming from the main street). Is
>> that a problem ?
>>
>> m.
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
>
> --
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Peter Elderson]

Same here in Nederland.

2018-06-15 10:43 GMT+02:00 Steve Doerr :

> On 15/06/2018 09:11, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>> I don’t know how the situation in the Netherlands, but in Germany
>> pedestrians always have precedence over turning cars at junctions, this
>> would be nothing special.
>>
>
> Even on the road you're turning out of? In the UK, a turning vehicle has
> to give way to pedestrians crossing *the road it is turning into*, but not
> the road it is already on.
>
> --
> Steve
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>



-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-15 8:04 GMT+02:00 Peter Elderson :

> This has (legal and practical) implications for speed and right of way:
> traffic coming from an exit construction has to give way to all sides, to
> all traffic including pedestrians, and maxspeed = 15 Kmph.
>
>

you will have to split the crossing highway for the maxspeed of 15 and for
the different surface tag on the piece with different paving. Then you
could add a give way restriction where you also add some tag stating it is
implicit and because of the crossing type.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Peter Elderson]

There might or might not be a traffic_calming table or bump. Bumps and
tables do not imply maxspeed or precedence.

2018-06-15 10:25 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :

> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 10:09 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would tag a node
> >
> > highway=give_way
> >
> > traffic_calming=table
>
> For a traffic calming table, I would expect to see a "up" and a bit
> further a "down", I only see up here (coming from the main street). Is
> that a problem ?
>
> m.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>



-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Steve Doerr]

On 15/06/2018 09:11, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

I don’t know how the situation in the Netherlands, but in Germany pedestrians 
always have precedence over turning cars at junctions, this would be nothing 
special.


Even on the road you're turning out of? In the UK, a turning vehicle has 
to give way to pedestrians crossing *the road it is turning into*, but 
not the road it is already on.


--
Steve

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Marc Gemis]

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 10:09 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would tag a node
>
> highway=give_way
>
> traffic_calming=table

For a traffic calming table, I would expect to see a "up" and a bit
further a "down", I only see up here (coming from the main street). Is
that a problem ?

m.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Peter Elderson]

Right U R. The driveway then exits onto the road. Traffic is supposed to
see and understand that this exit is not a real junction.

Authorities in Nederland have cleverly decided to re-use this to regulate
minor public street exits without any signing and fuss, and gave it a legal
status. They call it "uitritconstructie" i.e. [driveway]-exit-construction.

The exact construction is not prescribed, the legal formula is something
like "...should be implemented in such a way that it is clear that...".
Examples (good/bad) are given in the explanatory notes of the traffic
regulation rules.

This also copies the situation with driveway-exits. Total chaos, if you
look closely, but hey, it works.

2018-06-15 9:55 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 15. Jun 2018, at 08:32, Peter Elderson  wrote:
> >
> > Driveway is to and from a private property, I think?
>
>
> driveway is _on_ a private property
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>



-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Colin Smale]

On 2018-06-15 09:54, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 15. Jun 2018, at 08:28, Peter Elderson  wrote:
>> 
>> The street is residential, but the exit is over a sidewalk, with a dropped 
>> curb. That's the piece I'm talking about: not the street, just the exit.
>> 
>> Rules (legally) implied are that traffic can pass over this sidewalk, but 
>> has to give way to all sides and all others including pedestrians. Speed is 
>> limited to 15 Kmph (living_street rules).
> 
> as I said, this is the kind of junction of german living streets, including 
> rules and appearance.

But (in NL at least) not all such junctions are with a living street. 

The essence is that entering or leaving a side road over one of these
constructions counts as a "special manoeuvre", just like reversing and
turning in the street. You have to give way to just about everything. 

When you compare a junction with this "exit construction" (Dutch:
uitritconstructie) with a similar junction without it from a drivers
perspective, the "main road" is automatically a "priority road" at that
junction, without the need for a yellow diamond. Otherwise the through
road would have to yield priority to traffic from the right. Pedestrians
crossing the side road following the main road have priority in both
cases. 

Colin___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Jun 2018, at 09:49, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> pedestrians can cross and have precedence


I don’t know how the situation in the Netherlands, but in Germany pedestrians 
always have precedence over turning cars at junctions, this would be nothing 
special.


Cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Warin]

I would tag a node

highway=give_way

traffic_calming=table

Perhaps a separate node for traffic_calming=table if you want to go to that 
detail.

This avoids drop or raised curbs and if they are understood for crossing a side 
street ..

I'd think curbs would usually follow the corners so that may be what renders 
and routers will do.

By placing the traffic calming there you have given the best chance of it being 
recognised.
And it is a lot less work than adding sidewalks etc.

Here the traffic calming devices don't have a 'speed limit' .. some have 
advisories but they cannot be enforced.


On 15/06/18 17:18, marc marc wrote:

it look like a pedistrian crossing and a traffic calming
highway=crossing + crossing=unmarked
traffic_calming=table

if the standard maxspeed for a traffic_calming is not the same
as for a "street exit", the easy think todo is to create a new
traffic_calming value like traffic_calming=street_exit


Le 15. 06. 18 à 09:10, Peter Elderson a écrit :

Speed limit is only implied for the part crossing the sidewalk. The
street behind it can have different speed limits, usually it is part of
a "30 Kmph zone", but that is not implied or necessary.

The level of detail: sidewalks and kerbs are not usually mapped. It's
not realistic to start doing that just for these "exit constructions".
In fact, the exit may have dropped kerbs, but it might be a fat line or
double line, a line of different paving, a traffic bump or just that the
sidewalk paving stops.
Similar considerations for separate tagging of other details of paving,
elevation, lining. These are not fixed. The key element is that you
cross a sidewalk (and/or cycling lane).

Speed signs, give-way signs, shark teeth, stop-lines, bump warnings may
or may not be present. The idea is that all or most signs can be
removed: a. You are coming form an exit so slow down and give way! b.
It's coming from the right but it's an exit so move on!

We're looking for a simple way to indicate what's there without tagging
all the details and implications separately.

2018-06-15 8:42 GMT+02:00 mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au>>:

 *From:*Peter Elderson mailto:pelder...@gmail.com>>
 *Sent:* Friday, 15 June 2018 16:29
 *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
 mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>>
 *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] Street exits

 __ __

 The street is residential, but the exit is over a sidewalk, with a
 dropped curb. That's the piece I'm talking about: not the street,
 just the exit.

 __ __

 Rules (legally) implied are that traffic can pass over this
 sidewalk, but has to give way to all sides and all others including
 pedestrians. Speed is limited to 15 Kmph (living_street rules).

 __ __

 __ __

 Only for that part where it crosses the sidewalk, or for the whole
 street behind it?

 __ __

 As I’m normally mapping the kerb lines (way along the position of
 the kerb, with barrier=kerb and kerb=raised/lowered/rolled/flush) I
 would in this place have the highway crossing that kerb line, and
 would create an intersecting node (again tagged as barrier=kerb,
 kerb=lowered) (the same as when I’m mapping individual driveways,
 see: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-27.21152/153.02620
  ).
 But not everyone wants to map to this level of detail.

 __ __

 Maybe just a single barrier=kerb, kerb=lowered node on the highway
 to indicate that it has to cross the kerb?





___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Jun 2018, at 08:32, Peter Elderson  wrote:
> 
> Driveway is to and from a private property, I think?


driveway is _on_ a private property 


cheers,
Martin 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Jun 2018, at 08:28, Peter Elderson  wrote:
> 
> The street is residential, but the exit is over a sidewalk, with a dropped 
> curb. That's the piece I'm talking about: not the street, just the exit.
> 
> Rules (legally) implied are that traffic can pass over this sidewalk, but has 
> to give way to all sides and all others including pedestrians. Speed is 
> limited to 15 Kmph (living_street rules).


as I said, this is the kind of junction of german living streets, including 
rules and appearance.


Cheers, Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Volker Schmidt]

If I understand this correctly, this is a T-junction, where

   1. the main road traffic has precedence (equivalent of highway=give_way
   plus direction=forward|backward on the joining road)
   2. pedestrians can cross and have precedence (highway=crossing plus
   crossing=unmarked)
   3. some kind of traffic calming (table)

The highway=give_way wiki page states:
" Particular regulations regarding appearance, installation, and compliance
with the signs or markings vary by jurisdiction."
This could cover this case as well.
You could add "give_way=unmarked" in analogy to the unmarked pedestrian
crossings.

BTW: If I renumber correctly, the UK Highway Code the through traffic at
the top of the "T" at a T-junction has implicit precedence (at least that
was the case when I took my UK driving license test in 1979. I don't think
these give-way situations are mapped explicitly in OSM in the UK.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[marc marc]

it look like a pedistrian crossing and a traffic calming
highway=crossing + crossing=unmarked
traffic_calming=table

if the standard maxspeed for a traffic_calming is not the same
as for a "street exit", the easy think todo is to create a new 
traffic_calming value like traffic_calming=street_exit


Le 15. 06. 18 à 09:10, Peter Elderson a écrit :
> Speed limit is only implied for the part crossing the sidewalk. The 
> street behind it can have different speed limits, usually it is part of 
> a "30 Kmph zone", but that is not implied or necessary.
> 
> The level of detail: sidewalks and kerbs are not usually mapped. It's 
> not realistic to start doing that just for these "exit constructions". 
> In fact, the exit may have dropped kerbs, but it might be a fat line or 
> double line, a line of different paving, a traffic bump or just that the 
> sidewalk paving stops.
> Similar considerations for separate tagging of other details of paving, 
> elevation, lining. These are not fixed. The key element is that you 
> cross a sidewalk (and/or cycling lane).
> 
> Speed signs, give-way signs, shark teeth, stop-lines, bump warnings may 
> or may not be present. The idea is that all or most signs can be 
> removed: a. You are coming form an exit so slow down and give way! b. 
> It's coming from the right but it's an exit so move on!
> 
> We're looking for a simple way to indicate what's there without tagging 
> all the details and implications separately.
> 
> 2018-06-15 8:42 GMT+02:00  >:
> 
> *From:*Peter Elderson  >
> *Sent:* Friday, 15 June 2018 16:29
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] Street exits
> 
> __ __
> 
> The street is residential, but the exit is over a sidewalk, with a
> dropped curb. That's the piece I'm talking about: not the street,
> just the exit.
> 
> __ __
> 
> Rules (legally) implied are that traffic can pass over this
> sidewalk, but has to give way to all sides and all others including
> pedestrians. Speed is limited to 15 Kmph (living_street rules).
> 
> __ __
> 
> __ __
> 
> Only for that part where it crosses the sidewalk, or for the whole
> street behind it?
> 
> __ __
> 
> As I’m normally mapping the kerb lines (way along the position of
> the kerb, with barrier=kerb and kerb=raised/lowered/rolled/flush) I
> would in this place have the highway crossing that kerb line, and
> would create an intersecting node (again tagged as barrier=kerb,
> kerb=lowered) (the same as when I’m mapping individual driveways,
> see: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-27.21152/153.02620
>  ).
> But not everyone wants to map to this level of detail.
> 
> __ __
> 
> Maybe just a single barrier=kerb, kerb=lowered node on the highway
> to indicate that it has to cross the kerb?
> 
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
> 
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Marc Gemis]

>
> We're looking for a simple way to indicate what's there without tagging all 
> the details and implications separately.

as I wrote before (but simplified)

highway=crossing
crossing="whatever name you want to give to this construction"

for car drivers it's a crossing with a "construction" where
pedestrians walk. This is the same as white paint. A zebra or pelican
crossing also implies certain rules for car drives. Probably those
rules vary per country. In some countries you have to stop and give
way to waiting pedestrians at a zebra crossing.

m.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Peter Elderson]

Speed limit is only implied for the part crossing the sidewalk. The street
behind it can have different speed limits, usually it is part of a "30 Kmph
zone", but that is not implied or necessary.

The level of detail: sidewalks and kerbs are not usually mapped. It's not
realistic to start doing that just for these "exit constructions". In fact,
the exit may have dropped kerbs, but it might be a fat line or double line,
a line of different paving, a traffic bump or just that the sidewalk paving
stops.
Similar considerations for separate tagging of other details of paving,
elevation, lining. These are not fixed. The key element is that you cross a
sidewalk (and/or cycling lane).

Speed signs, give-way signs, shark teeth, stop-lines, bump warnings may or
may not be present. The idea is that all or most signs can be removed: a.
You are coming form an exit so slow down and give way! b. It's coming from
the right but it's an exit so move on!

We're looking for a simple way to indicate what's there without tagging all
the details and implications separately.

2018-06-15 8:42 GMT+02:00 :

> *From:* Peter Elderson 
> *Sent:* Friday, 15 June 2018 16:29
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] Street exits
>
>
>
> The street is residential, but the exit is over a sidewalk, with a dropped
> curb. That's the piece I'm talking about: not the street, just the exit.
>
>
>
> Rules (legally) implied are that traffic can pass over this sidewalk, but
> has to give way to all sides and all others including pedestrians. Speed is
> limited to 15 Kmph (living_street rules).
>
>
>
>
>
> Only for that part where it crosses the sidewalk, or for the whole street
> behind it?
>
>
>
> As I’m normally mapping the kerb lines (way along the position of the
> kerb, with barrier=kerb and kerb=raised/lowered/rolled/flush) I would in
> this place have the highway crossing that kerb line, and would create an
> intersecting node (again tagged as barrier=kerb, kerb=lowered) (the same as
> when I’m mapping individual driveways, see: https://www.openstreetmap.org/
> edit#map=21/-27.21152/153.02620 ). But not everyone wants to map to this
> level of detail.
>
>
>
> Maybe just a single barrier=kerb, kerb=lowered node on the highway to
> indicate that it has to cross the kerb?
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>


-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[osm.tagging]

From: Peter Elderson  
Sent: Friday, 15 June 2018 16:29
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Street exits

 

The street is residential, but the exit is over a sidewalk, with a dropped 
curb. That's the piece I'm talking about: not the street, just the exit.

 

Rules (legally) implied are that traffic can pass over this sidewalk, but has 
to give way to all sides and all others including pedestrians. Speed is limited 
to 15 Kmph (living_street rules).

 

 

Only for that part where it crosses the sidewalk, or for the whole street 
behind it?

 

As I’m normally mapping the kerb lines (way along the position of the kerb, 
with barrier=kerb and kerb=raised/lowered/rolled/flush) I would in this place 
have the highway crossing that kerb line, and would create an intersecting node 
(again tagged as barrier=kerb, kerb=lowered) (the same as when I’m mapping 
individual driveways, see: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-27.21152/153.02620 ). But not 
everyone wants to map to this level of detail.

 

Maybe just a single barrier=kerb, kerb=lowered node on the highway to indicate 
that it has to cross the kerb?

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Marc Gemis]

Where is the maxspeed 15 km/h, only on the crossing with the sidewalk
? Then that is similar to traffic calming tables in Belgium, where the
max speed is also lower.

I would just map a point on the road with highway=crossing;
crossing="dutch_exit_construction_type". and perhaps a small segment
of the road with surface=paving_stones; maxspeed=15 and a
highway=give_way node next to the crossing node.
In Belgium you are supposed to stop at each highway=crossing and give
way to the pedestrians waiting to cross the street. So the give way to
pedestrians is somehow implied by the crossing.

m
On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 8:05 AM Peter Elderson  wrote:
>
> In Nederland we have a growing number of  "exit constructions", where traffic 
> has to cross a section of sidewalk to join the larger road. There is no 
> traffic sign for this, it is indicated by the construction and lining of the 
> join section. "If it looks like a driveway exit, treat it like a driveway 
> exit" is the idea. Don't bother with signs, just use more sidewalk pavement.
>
> https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9663779,4.6074315,3a,75y,14.43h,78.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8uG7mHF9cw2n65XprKze0w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>
>
> This has (legal and practical) implications for speed and right of way: 
> traffic coming from an exit construction has to give way to all sides, to all 
> traffic including pedestrians, and maxspeed = 15 Kmph.
>
> Some mappers want to tag this so it could be rendered and routed taking speed 
> limit and right of way into account.
>
> The easiest solution is to tag the end of the joining road (where traffic 
> crosses the sidewalk) with an exiting or new highway tag, defining it as a 
> section which can be crossed (and routed) but has to give way to all, and 
> limits speed.
>
> Any thoughts on this?
>
> --
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[osm.tagging]

A quick search shows that it's probably not a "living street", as the concept 
does exist in the Netherlands, but does require explicit signs like in Germany:

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf

Also, in my experience "living streets" usually lack a clear kerb and 
distinction between road and sidewalk, which this street has if you follow it.

> -Original Message-
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
> Sent: Friday, 15 June 2018 16:17
> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Street exits
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> > On 15. Jun 2018, at 08:04, Peter Elderson 
> wrote:
> >
> > "If it looks like a driveway exit, treat it like a driveway exit"
> is the idea. Don't bother with signs, just use more sidewalk
> pavement.
> 
> 
> For me this piece of street does not look like a driveway, I would
> call it a residential street. In Germany it would probably be a
> living street.
> 
> Are there particular rules implied by the paving?
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Peter Elderson]

Driveway is to and from a private property, I think? The difference is that
this exit is from a public street with normal traffic. Routable.

2018-06-15 8:17 GMT+02:00 Graeme Fitzpatrick :

> Sorry if I've misunderstood Peter, but is there any difference between
> this & a normal driveway?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>


-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Peter Elderson]

The street is residential, but the exit is over a sidewalk, with a dropped
curb. That's the piece I'm talking about: not the street, just the exit.

Rules (legally) implied are that traffic can pass over this sidewalk, but
has to give way to all sides and all others including pedestrians. Speed is
limited to 15 Kmph (living_street rules).

2018-06-15 8:16 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 15. Jun 2018, at 08:04, Peter Elderson  wrote:
> >
> > "If it looks like a driveway exit, treat it like a driveway exit" is the
> idea. Don't bother with signs, just use more sidewalk pavement.
>
>
> For me this piece of street does not look like a driveway, I would call it
> a residential street. In Germany it would probably be a living street.
>
> Are there particular rules implied by the paving?
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>



-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[osm.tagging]

If you follow the road in SV, you can see that it’s a normal road with it’s own 
name, and connections to other roads.

 

My first impulse was also “if it’s treated like a driveway, tag it as a 
driveway”, but it clearly isn’t one once you are actually in the road.

 

It’s only the part where it connected to the other road “like a driveway” 
instead of like a normal road.

 

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick  
Sent: Friday, 15 June 2018 16:18
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Street exits

 

Sorry if I've misunderstood Peter, but is there any difference between this & a 
normal driveway?




Thanks

 

Graeme

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Sorry if I've misunderstood Peter, but is there any difference between this
& a normal driveway?

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Jun 2018, at 08:04, Peter Elderson  wrote:
> 
> "If it looks like a driveway exit, treat it like a driveway exit" is the 
> idea. Don't bother with signs, just use more sidewalk pavement. 


For me this piece of street does not look like a driveway, I would call it a 
residential street. In Germany it would probably be a living street.

Are there particular rules implied by the paving?

Cheers,
Martin 



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Street exits

[Peter Elderson]

In Nederland we have a growing number of  "exit constructions", where
traffic has to cross a section of sidewalk to join the larger road. There
is no traffic sign for this, it is indicated by the construction and lining
of the join section. "If it looks like a driveway exit, treat it like a
driveway exit" is the idea. Don't bother with signs, just use more sidewalk
pavement.

https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9663779,4.6074315,3a,75y,14.43h,78.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8uG7mHF9cw2n65XprKze0w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


This has (legal and practical) implications for speed and right of way:
traffic coming from an exit construction has to give way to all sides, to
all traffic including pedestrians, and maxspeed = 15 Kmph.

Some mappers want to tag this so it could be rendered and routed taking
speed limit and right of way into account.

The easiest solution is to tag the end of the joining road (where traffic
crosses the sidewalk) with an exiting or new highway tag, defining it as a
section which can be crossed (and routed) but has to give way to all, and
limits speed.

Any thoughts on this?

-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging