Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 12/31/2010 04:27 PM, Anthony wrote: Any suggestions how to tag this? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG cycleway=lane + hazard=narrow_bridge? I know signs for “narrow bridge” [1] are common around here. A google search [2] shows several variants. I’m not sure that “hazard=narrow_bridge” would be the right way to tag such a sign, or if it would be completely correct to tag here since there is no sign. In any case, it seems obvious that a narrow bridge would require extra caution for cyclists even if there are cycle lanes. —Alex Mauer “hawke” 1. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Narrow_Bridge_sign.svg/600px-Narrow_Bridge_sign.svg.png 2. http://www.google.com/images?client=ubuntuchannel=csq=narrow%20bridge%20signum=1ie=UTF-8source=ogsa=Nhl=entab=wibiw=1280bih=663 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Alex Mauer ha...@hawkesnest.net wrote: On 12/31/2010 04:27 PM, Anthony wrote: Any suggestions how to tag this? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG cycleway=lane + hazard=narrow_bridge? I know signs for “narrow bridge” [1] are common around here. A google search [2] shows several variants. I’m not sure that “hazard=narrow_bridge” would be the right way to tag such a sign, or if it would be completely correct to tag here since there is no sign. In any case, it seems obvious that a narrow bridge would require extra caution for cyclists even if there are cycle lanes. Along those lines, there's http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:narrow ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 01/04/2011 08:46 AM, Anthony wrote: On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 3:22 AM, Paul Johnson baloo-PVOPTusIyP/sroww+9z...@public.gmane.org wrote: On 01/03/2011 08:11 AM, Dave F. wrote: On 03/01/2011 03:50, Paul Johnson wrote: On 01/01/2011 07:54 AM, Dave F. wrote: Is the adjacent path shared? if so, note that that would be the safer passage. Most states prohibit bicycles from sidewalks, or limit their speed to a walking speed on sidewalks, making them useless for bicyclists. Really? Is that US thing? Do they have signs? What about joggers runners? It's not posted, but it is codified as such in state law. Oregon expressly limits bicycles to walking speed on sidewalks, all states consider bicycles as vehicles that must obey vehicle law as applicable (including not driving on sidewalks, which makes the whole walking speed thing moot in Oregon anyway). Your statement that bicycles are prohibited from driving on sidewalks in all states is not correct. Florida statutes explicitly state: A person propelling a vehicle by human power upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, has all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances. But does Florida state that bicycles are vehicles and such laws apply to them? If so, that would be the overriding factor. If not, eh, Florida's weird enough to get it's own tag on FARK... signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 01/03/2011 08:11 AM, Dave F. wrote: On 03/01/2011 03:50, Paul Johnson wrote: On 01/01/2011 07:54 AM, Dave F. wrote: Is the adjacent path shared? if so, note that that would be the safer passage. Most states prohibit bicycles from sidewalks, or limit their speed to a walking speed on sidewalks, making them useless for bicyclists. Really? Is that US thing? Do they have signs? What about joggers runners? It's not posted, but it is codified as such in state law. Oregon expressly limits bicycles to walking speed on sidewalks, all states consider bicycles as vehicles that must obey vehicle law as applicable (including not driving on sidewalks, which makes the whole walking speed thing moot in Oregon anyway). BC similarly prohibits vehicles on sidewalks including bicycles. In all cases, of course, driveways are fair game, as are places where there is signage indicating the opposite. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 3:22 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On 01/03/2011 08:11 AM, Dave F. wrote: On 03/01/2011 03:50, Paul Johnson wrote: On 01/01/2011 07:54 AM, Dave F. wrote: Is the adjacent path shared? if so, note that that would be the safer passage. Most states prohibit bicycles from sidewalks, or limit their speed to a walking speed on sidewalks, making them useless for bicyclists. Really? Is that US thing? Do they have signs? What about joggers runners? It's not posted, but it is codified as such in state law. Oregon expressly limits bicycles to walking speed on sidewalks, all states consider bicycles as vehicles that must obey vehicle law as applicable (including not driving on sidewalks, which makes the whole walking speed thing moot in Oregon anyway). Your statement that bicycles are prohibited from driving on sidewalks in all states is not correct. Florida statutes explicitly state: A person propelling a vehicle by human power upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, has all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances. Of course, those rights and duties include such things as stopping at a don't walk signal, even when there's a green light. Plus you have to yield to pedestrians and ring your hello kitty bicycle bell every time you pass one: A person propelling a bicycle upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian and shall give an audible signal before overtaking and passing such pedestrian. It's not something you want to do for your commute. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
Google's measurement tool? Waar kan ik die vinden en hoe werkt deze? -Robert- Citeren j...@jfeldredge.com: Two feet wide is about what I had estimated by looking at the photograph, which is why I commented that the bicycle might fit into the bike lane, but part of the rider would have to extend over the line into the automobile lane. Your wheels would be more-or-less atop the lane divider stripe. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane From :mailto:o...@inbox.org Date :Sun Jan 02 22:41:09 America/Chicago 2011 On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Not having a sense of depth, I'd guess in the narrow spot it's about 4 feet wide, which is, believe it or not, the federal minimum width for bike lanes (though I wish Ray would hurry up and adopt Oregon's 6 foot lanes and make them mandatory to receive highway funding...) Google's measurement tool gives more like 2 feet. (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.078571,-82.56522spn=0.000622,0.000912t=hz=20) On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:49 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I would call the highway department every day until they fix what they screwed up. 1-850-617-2000 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 01/02/2011 10:41 PM, Anthony wrote: On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Paul Johnson baloo-PVOPTusIyP/sroww+9z...@public.gmane.org wrote: Not having a sense of depth, I'd guess in the narrow spot it's about 4 feet wide, which is, believe it or not, the federal minimum width for bike lanes (though I wish Ray would hurry up and adopt Oregon's 6 foot lanes and make them mandatory to receive highway funding...) Google's measurement tool gives more like 2 feet. (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.078571,-82.56522spn=0.000622,0.000912t=hz=20) Yeah, that doesn't meet standards. On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:49 PM, Paul Johnson baloo-PVOPTusIyP/sroww+9z...@public.gmane.org wrote: I would call the highway department every day until they fix what they screwed up. 1-850-617-2000 I'm not Floridian, so they don't care about me. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 03/01/2011 03:50, Paul Johnson wrote: On 01/01/2011 07:54 AM, Dave F. wrote: Is the adjacent path shared? if so, note that that would be the safer passage. Most states prohibit bicycles from sidewalks, or limit their speed to a walking speed on sidewalks, making them useless for bicyclists. Really? Is that US thing? Do they have signs? What about joggers runners? That, and nobody expects vehicles to be driving on the sidewalk to start with, so it's not a safer option for the bicycle operator, other traffic, or pedestrians to have bicycles there. I clearly stated *if*. Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 03/01/2011 03:53, Paul Johnson wrote: On 01/01/2011 01:28 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Robert Elsenaarrobert-Sr3mCESyW84k+I/owrr...@public.gmane.org wrote: hazard:bicycle is the other way round. If there is a key/value e.g. hazard=narrow then you can easily use cycleway:hazard=narrow to tag the fact that the hazard tag is specificly warns for a narrow cycle-lane. highway=* cycleway:right=lane cycleway:width=0.5 cycleway:hazard=narrow But the hazard won't always be in a cycleway. For instance there may be streetcar tracks in the road - fine for motorists, but cyclists have to watch out. Should we start tagging potholes while we're at it? http://www.fillthathole.org.uk/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 03/01/2011 03:50, Paul Johnson wrote: On 01/01/2011 07:54 AM, Dave F. wrote: Is the adjacent path shared? if so, note that that would be the safer passage. Most states prohibit bicycles from sidewalks, or limit their speed to a walking speed on sidewalks, making them useless for bicyclists. Really? Is that US thing? Do they have signs? What about joggers runners? In Florida, bikes are allowed on sidewalks by default unless the city bans them (Orlando does, for example, with no signs posted). Speed is not limited, but pedestrians have right-of-way. That, and nobody expects vehicles to be driving on the sidewalk to start with, so it's not a safer option for the bicycle operator, other traffic, or pedestrians to have bicycles there. I clearly stated *if*. Even if the sidewalk were officially designated as a shared path, that would not make it any safer. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 6:39 AM, rob...@elsenaar.info wrote: Google's measurement tool? http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.078571,-82.56522spn=0.000622,0.000912t=hz=20 Bottom left hand corner. Click the ruler. Click the start point. Click the end point. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 03/01/2011 14:36, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Even if the sidewalk were officially designated as a shared path, that would not make it any safer. This could degenerate into a long winded argument, so to save us a lot of typing I'll say from the outset that we should agree to disagree. Cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: Even if the sidewalk were officially designated as a shared path, that would not make it any safer. Yeah, the only way the sidewalk is a safer path would be if you slow down and yield to cars at every crosswalk. While you might arguably have the right of way in some such situations, many people driving cars just don't expect relatively fast moving vehicles to appear in crosswalks. The safest path in this particular section of road for a bicyclist who doesn't want to basically stop and look both ways at every intersection, would be in the right-hand motor vehicle lane. At least until after the bridge, and probably all the way through the Veterans Expressway interchange. Of course, except for at the bridge itself, where I think anyone would agree that it's reasonably necessary to avoid the bike lane, riding in the motor vehicle lane is arguably illegal, due to the mandatory bike lane law. So in one sense, yeah, the sidewalk probably is the safest path. It's the path I'll be taking my son on the first time he rides that way. But its safety assumes you're going to slow down and yield at every intersection. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: Any suggestions how to tag this? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG This raises an interesting philosophical question: Does OSM map what *we* consider to be a bike lane (or a park, or a service road, or a tertiary highway...) or what *someone else* says it is? The latter path is sometimes simpler and gives more consistent, objective results: the bike lane here is clearly signed, and can simply be marked bicycle=lane. If we take the former option, then we get enormous amounts of debate about how to tag even a single entity, as seen in this thread: well, if it were more than 4 feet wide, I'd consider it a bike path, otherwise not... Me, I lean towards the someone else for some things like bike lanes, and the we decide path when there is no useful authority. It would good to have some policy on this. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com writes: This raises an interesting philosophical question: Does OSM map what *we* consider to be a bike lane (or a park, or a service road, or a tertiary highway...) or what *someone else* says it is? The latter path is sometimes simpler and gives more consistent, objective results: the bike lane here is clearly signed, and can simply be marked bicycle=lane. If we take the former option, then we get enormous amounts of debate about how to tag even a single entity, as seen in this thread: well, if it were more than 4 feet wide, I'd consider it a bike path, otherwise not... Me, I lean towards the someone else for some things like bike lanes, and the we decide path when there is no useful authority. I agree 100%. To help sharpen this, I'll observe that the debate here has not been about is that a bike lane. It's been about do we want to be complicit in calling it a bike lane (even though it clearly is intended as one) because we don't think it's safe. The intellectually honest position in the db is The government thinks its a bike lane. Note that it's too narrow to be safe. Rendering is harder, but we don't have to debate that here. pgp8zAOzn5iSi.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 01/01/2011 07:08 AM, Ed Hillsman wrote: On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Anthony osm at inbox.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging wrote: / Any suggestions how to tag this? // http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG/ If the lane is too narrow to function safely as a bike lane, then I would break the street way at this point, I would call the highway department every day until they fix what they screwed up. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 01/01/2011 07:54 AM, Dave F. wrote: Is the adjacent path shared? if so, note that that would be the safer passage. Most states prohibit bicycles from sidewalks, or limit their speed to a walking speed on sidewalks, making them useless for bicyclists. That, and nobody expects vehicles to be driving on the sidewalk to start with, so it's not a safer option for the bicycle operator, other traffic, or pedestrians to have bicycles there. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 01/01/2011 01:28 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Robert Elsenaar robert-Sr3mCESyW84k+I/owrr...@public.gmane.org wrote: hazard:bicycle is the other way round. If there is a key/value e.g. hazard=narrow then you can easily use cycleway:hazard=narrow to tag the fact that the hazard tag is specificly warns for a narrow cycle-lane. highway=* cycleway:right=lane cycleway:width=0.5 cycleway:hazard=narrow But the hazard won't always be in a cycleway. For instance there may be streetcar tracks in the road - fine for motorists, but cyclists have to watch out. Should we start tagging potholes while we're at it? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 01/01/2011 10:52 AM, Anthony wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxel gdt-2FjktZCtrC/qt0dzr+a...@public.gmane.org wrote: By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. Not having a sense of depth, I'd guess in the narrow spot it's about 4 feet wide, which is, believe it or not, the federal minimum width for bike lanes (though I wish Ray would hurry up and adopt Oregon's 6 foot lanes and make them mandatory to receive highway funding...) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 12/31/2010 04:27 PM, Anthony wrote: Any suggestions how to tag this? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG As part of the existing way, just tag it cycleway=lane to indicate that there's a restricted lane reserved for bicycles. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Not having a sense of depth, I'd guess in the narrow spot it's about 4 feet wide, which is, believe it or not, the federal minimum width for bike lanes (though I wish Ray would hurry up and adopt Oregon's 6 foot lanes and make them mandatory to receive highway funding...) Google's measurement tool gives more like 2 feet. (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.078571,-82.56522spn=0.000622,0.000912t=hz=20) On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:49 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I would call the highway department every day until they fix what they screwed up. 1-850-617-2000 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
Two feet wide is about what I had estimated by looking at the photograph, which is why I commented that the bicycle might fit into the bike lane, but part of the rider would have to extend over the line into the automobile lane. Your wheels would be more-or-less atop the lane divider stripe. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane From :mailto:o...@inbox.org Date :Sun Jan 02 22:41:09 America/Chicago 2011 On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Not having a sense of depth, I'd guess in the narrow spot it's about 4 feet wide, which is, believe it or not, the federal minimum width for bike lanes (though I wish Ray would hurry up and adopt Oregon's 6 foot lanes and make them mandatory to receive highway funding...) Google's measurement tool gives more like 2 feet. (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.078571,-82.56522spn=0.000622,0.000912t=hz=20) On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:49 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I would call the highway department every day until they fix what they screwed up. 1-850-617-2000 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Anthony osm at inbox.org wrote: Any suggestions how to tag this? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG If the lane is too narrow to function safely as a bike lane, then I would break the street way at this point, code the portion of the way that has the functional bike lane as cycleway=lane (if this is not a dual carriageway then use cycleway:left/right as apporopriate), and add a note tag that the bike lane going beyond is too narrow to serve as a bike lane. If the bike lane widens some distance after the restriction, then break the way again and tag that section with cycleway=lane again, leaving the non-functional stretch without a cycleway tag. My experience is that people who ride bikes on busy streets (which this one seems to be) don't like surprises, so showing a gap lets them know that something requires attention at that point. I think we will see routing software in the very near future that will list note tags. Ed Hillsman___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 8:54 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Is the adjacent path shared? if so, note that that would be the safer passage. It's a sidewalk, and it's most likely not safer because of the upcoming intersection, which appears to have a right turn (across the sidewalk) to access the toll road southbound. Safest would be to get into the lane to the left of the bike lane. I saw someone use it a few days ago who moved to the left to basically ride the paint of the lane separator then shifted back after the bridge. There weren't any cars passing him at the time, though. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
I agree with the notion of not having surprises, but I think going down the path of judgement about bike lanes being inadequate and not tagging them is going to lead to a mess. I lean towards saying if there is a cycle lane painted on the road (and more or less if the road authority says there is one), then it should be tagged as such. Then, if it's too narrow, put a width tag (with the actual width). If it's in a door kill zone due to parking behing allowed next to it, add a tag that says exactly that. Then someone can render maps that don't show cycle lanes with particular tags, or routers can avoid them, or whatever else someone thinks of. But, I think it's probably better to show them with some danger crosshatch, or skull and crossbones, or whatever -- my view is that the point of rendered maps is to efficiently communicate reality to someone who hasn't yet encountered it. By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. If part of the goal is advocacy for bike safety, then I think it makes sense to find a cycling organization, like http://www.bikeleague.org/ and to find out what their standards are for cycle lane safety, and then to have a scheme to represent conformance (but not tie that to is it a bike lane). pgpxKGQcyfsgN.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
I agree with the notion of not having surprises, but I think going down the path of judgement about bike lanes being inadequate and not tagging them is going to lead to a mess. I lean towards saying if there is a cycle lane painted on the road (and more or less if the road authority says there is one), then it should be tagged as such. Then, if it's too narrow, put a width tag (with the actual width). If it's in a door kill zone due to parking behing allowed next to it, add a tag that says exactly that. Then someone can render maps that don't show cycle lanes with particular tags, or routers can avoid them, or whatever else someone thinks of. But, I think it's probably better to show them with some danger crosshatch, or skull and crossbones, or whatever -- my view is that the point of rendered maps is to efficiently communicate reality to someone who hasn't yet encountered it. By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. If part of the goal is advocacy for bike safety, then I think it makes sense to find a cycling organization, like http://www.bikeleague.org/ and to find out what their standards are for cycle lane safety, and then to have a scheme to represent conformance (but not tie that to is it a bike lane). pgpABmVCiSfTt.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
It does look like, even if the bicycle itself fit entirely within the bike lane, the left side of the rider's body would be over the line into the driving lane. I remember once seeing a photograph of a bike lane in Holland that was even worse; the lane narrowed to less than a foot wide, along the very brink of a canal. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane From :mailto:o...@inbox.org Date :Sat Jan 01 10:52:48 America/Chicago 2011 On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 1/1/11 11:52 AM, Anthony wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxelg...@ir.bbn.com wrote: By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. the debate over whether we should include judgmental informantion in tags (especially for bike lanes) has been going on for a while. maybe we need a tag which is understood to sometimes be judgmental. for the lane depicted in the picture, cycleway=lane width=* hazard:outside=barrier where hazard is understood to sometimes be judgmental, e.g. cycleway=lane width=* hazard=car_door richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 1/1/11 11:52 AM, Anthony wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxelg...@ir.bbn.com wrote: By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. the debate over whether we should include judgmental informantion in tags (especially for bike lanes) has been going on for a while. maybe we need a tag which is understood to sometimes be judgmental. What do you mean by judgmental? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 1/1/11 12:40 PM, Anthony wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Richard Weltyrwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 1/1/11 11:52 AM, Anthony wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Greg Troxelg...@ir.bbn.comwrote: By trying to objectively tag the reality (not entirely possible of course), we also avoid all the debates about what is and isn't safe in general, and where the dividing line is. In this case I'm not even sure it's physically possible for a bicycle to fit in the supposed bicycle lane, let alone safe. the debate over whether we should include judgmental informantion in tags (especially for bike lanes) has been going on for a while. maybe we need a tag which is understood to sometimes be judgmental. What do you mean by judgmental? there have been arguments about whether safety considerations should factor into bike lane tagging, with some taking the posture that only physical and legal attributes should be mapped, and others wanting to include their judgment about whether a particular lane or path is safe for some definition of safe. so the safety/hazard factor is sometimes a judgmental issue. i know that there are some freshly painted bike lanes on US 4 in East Greenbush where i'd be tempted to put something like hazard=sewer_grate if such a tag existed richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: so the safety/hazard factor is sometimes a judgmental issue. i know that there are some freshly painted bike lanes on US 4 in East Greenbush where i'd be tempted to put something like hazard=sewer_grate if such a tag existed I've been using cycle_hazard (mainly for sidepaths with frequent driveway/side road crossings). It probably makes sense to separately tag bicycle-specific hazards; a general hazard would be something like hazard=falling_rocks. Would hazard:bicycle be a better format than cycle_hazard? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
hazard:bicycle is the other way round. If there is a key/value e.g. hazard=narrow then you can easily use cycleway:hazard=narrow to tag the fact that the hazard tag is specificly warns for a narrow cycle-lane. highway=* cycleway:right=lane cycleway:width=0.5 cycleway:hazard=narrow I think this is a beautifull set of tags that describes objectivity the shown situation. -Robert- -Oorspronkelijk bericht- From: Nathan Edgars II Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 7:49 PM To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools Subject: Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: so the safety/hazard factor is sometimes a judgmental issue. i know that there are some freshly painted bike lanes on US 4 in East Greenbush where i'd be tempted to put something like hazard=sewer_grate if such a tag existed I've been using cycle_hazard (mainly for sidepaths with frequent driveway/side road crossings). It probably makes sense to separately tag bicycle-specific hazards; a general hazard would be something like hazard=falling_rocks. Would hazard:bicycle be a better format than cycle_hazard? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging --- Tekst ingevoegd door Panda GP 2011: Als het hier gaat om een ongevraagde e-mail (SPAM), klik dan op de volgende link om de e-mail te herclasseren: http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_1296SPAM=truepath=C:\Windows\system32\config\systemprofile\AppData\Local\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Global%20Protection%202011\AntiSpam --- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Robert Elsenaar rob...@elsenaar.info wrote: hazard:bicycle is the other way round. If there is a key/value e.g. hazard=narrow then you can easily use cycleway:hazard=narrow to tag the fact that the hazard tag is specificly warns for a narrow cycle-lane. highway=* cycleway:right=lane cycleway:width=0.5 cycleway:hazard=narrow But the hazard won't always be in a cycleway. For instance there may be streetcar tracks in the road - fine for motorists, but cyclists have to watch out. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 1/1/11 2:17 PM, Robert Elsenaar wrote: hazard:bicycle is the other way round. If there is a key/value e.g. hazard=narrow then you can easily use cycleway:hazard=narrow to tag the fact that the hazard tag is specificly warns for a narrow cycle-lane. highway=* cycleway:right=lane cycleway:width=0.5 cycleway:hazard=narrow I think this is a beautifull set of tags that describes objectivity the shown situation. i'm going to suggest that we don't do narrow in this manner. going back to the photo that started this whole thing, i'd suggest cycleway:right=lane cycleway:width=0.5 cycleway:hazard=barrier to indicate that the lane is narrow (width is sufficient indication of this) and that there's a physical barrier to one side. the cyclist should be able to infer that s/he'll be riding in a narrow lane with traffic to one side and a barrier to the other. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 10:36:54 -0500 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: If part of the goal is advocacy for bike safety, then I think it makes sense to find a cycling organization, like http://www.bikeleague.org/ and to find out what their standards are for cycle lane safety, and then to have a scheme to represent conformance (but not tie that to is it a bike lane). agreed In Australia there is a minimum width for a bike lane, which does not include the concrete guttering. Anything less than this is not a bike lane, whether it has a sign or not. The local-sign-erecting-authority should also have a warning sign for the bridge where the allocated space is just too small. Bike_lane=undernourished and bike_lane=death_trap are what spring to mind. I'd ride in the car lane or use another street ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On 31/12/2010 22:27, Anthony wrote: Any suggestions how to tag this? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle L2? Cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] designated bike lane
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: Any suggestions how to tag this? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:IMG_7491.JPG cycleway=lane cycle_hazard=bike lane too narrow or unicycleway=lane (would work better if there were a bike stencil on the lane, since only the back half would fit) :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
