Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Daniel Bégin]

The same in Canada…

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From: stevea<mailto:stevea...@softworkers.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 03:15
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

On Jan 29, 2023, at 5:31 AM, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 12:12:06AM +, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>
>> When I first encountered Canadian four way stops in 1980, I did think these 
>> should be mini-roundabouts.
>
> Thats the main point. In Germany we have a solution of "last resort"
> which is called "Rechts vor links" - So when there is no other
> rules of priority its "Right before left".
>
> Other jurisdications dont have this so there is a problem with producing
> junctions with "equal priority". The UK solution is the "mini
> roundabout".

I don't usually jump on a post simply to disagree with it (it makes me sound 
"simply contrarian" and "argument provoking," which I am not), but I must do so 
here and now.  I am not an attorney.  In my state of California in the USA, at 
four-way stop-signs, we have a right-of-way law (California Vehicle Code §21800 
et al) which states essentially the same thing as what Florian calls Germany's 
"last resort:"  it says

"When two vehicles enter an intersection from different highways at the same 
time, the driver of the vehicle on the left shall yield the right-of-way to the 
vehicle on his or her immediate right."

So, please don't say "other jurisdictions don't have this," as obviously, some 
do.  Thank you.
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Philip Barnes]

On 2 February 2023 09:34:08 GMT, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>I do have a typical traversable roundabout close by. hgv=no is not correct,
>there are commercial activities around that need hgv access. The roads are
>adequate for that
>
>The angle between incoming roads is not a suitabla measure, as the
>traversable roundabout has a circular "belly", providing additional space
>for turning longer vehicles. The diameter of this circular turning space in
>this specific location is 12m. The maximum length for articulated trucks is
>generally 16m in Italy.
>
>The probable reason why I see relatively frequent problems there, is that
>the junction is represented on big-G maps as a normal roundabout (they do
>not have a specific way to represent traversable roundabouts) and the size
>of this roundabout is a bit large on their map. This junction is on a route
>to reach a company that repairs agricultaral machinery, that arrives on
>long flat-bed articulated trucks.
>
>Coming back to my original question: could we agree that:
>
>1) highway=mini_roundabout outside the UK is used to describe traversable
>roundabouts, provided the traffic rules are the same as on untraversable
>roundabouts
Most of my non GB driving experience is in France. Mini-roundabouts there use 
the same blue sign as the UK.

Phil (trigpoint) 
>2) diameter= x m can be used to describe the available turning area
>diameter, if it is roughly circular.
>3) we will look into defining an alternative way to describe the
>traversable roundabout area in a way similar to bridge or road geometry
>(and let us discuss that approach in a new thread)
>
>Volker
>
>
>
>On Thu, 2 Feb 2023, 09:58 Mark Reidel,  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2023-02-02 at 04:31 +0100, Matija Nalis wrote:
>> > If the actual issue is that HGV cannot pass some road, why not simply
>> > mark it as `hgv=no`? Besides being simple, it has the additional
>> > advantage that routers will actually already use it and direct HGVs
>> > somewhere where they can actually pass.
>>
>> Adding an access-tag like maxlength isn't the correct way to tackle
>> this, because:
>> a) there is no *legal* restriction that disallows a vehicle of a
>> certain length
>> b) it's not only about the length, but mostly about the turning radius
>> of trucks, which is not necessarily related to their length, especially
>> when they have more than 1 trailer.
>>
>> But overall, I don't see how this is of special importance for a mini
>> roundabout with a traversable surface, it being very much identical to
>> a regular crossing when you are allowed to go over the inner circle.
>> Shouldn't the angle between the two roads the vehicle wants to pass be
>> the limiting factor in that case?
>>
>> --
>> Mark aka Nadjita
>>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Peter Neale via Tagging]

Well, the Highway Code says (Rule 188), "Avoid making U-turns at 
mini-roundabouts. Beware of others doing this."
I assume that "avoid" is not quite as strong as "prohibited", especially as 
drivers are then warned to "Beware of others doing thís".
Also, I know of at least one bus route near me that terminates at an (actually 
fairly large) mini-roundabout, where the busses all do a U-Turn. 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1166864821). 
However, I think that the diameter of the centre of a mini-roundabout is 
irrelevant and even the outer diameter is unlikely to be of use to any map 
user, unless thay are planning to do a U-Turn (which they are supposed to 
"avoid" doing.
Regards,Peter(PeterPan99)

On Thursday, 2 February 2023 at 09:04:05 GMT, Philip Barnes 
 wrote:  
 
 A mini roundabout often doesn't usually have a diameter. Most are jus normal 
junctions which have been made mini-roundabouts to set a priority.

So in terms of large vehicles it is the same problem as any other junctions, 
whether they can turn left or right. 

In the UK, U turns are prohibited at mini-roundabouts, which I would have 
thought would be the main usecase for a diameter.

Phil (trigpoint)

On 2 February 2023 03:31:39 GMT, Matija Nalis 
 wrote:
If the actual issue is that HGV cannot pass some road, why not simply mark it 
as 
`hgv=no`? Besides being simple, it has the additional advantage that routers
will actually already use it and direct HGVs somewhere where they can actually 
pass.

Or if some lenghts of HGVs can pass, but others not, then maxlength=* 
or maxlength:hgv=* or some of the other alternatives from 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxlength ?

On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 21:25:32 +0100, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

 I see that I was not precise with my question: I am after a way to tag the
 overall diameter of the round surface composed of the mini-roundabout road
 surface plus the traversable central part. This is an important measure for
 trucks. I happen to live near one of these with an outer diameter of 12 m,
 and that attracts regularly articulated lorries like the cheese attracts
 flies. This triggered the question.

 Il giorno mer 25 gen 2023 alle ore 19:10 Peter Neale via Tagging <
 tagging@openstreetmap.org> ha scritto:


 According to the Wiki (with which I happen to agree), a mini-roundabout is
 defined as:

 "...a special type of roundabout in which the middle can be traversed
  by vehicles, and is
 typically used where there is only limited space available. Road traffic
 flows in one direction around a point in the middle and the traffic in the
 roundabout has right-of-way. The middle of a mini-roundabout is usually
 only a painted circle, but there might also be a low, fully traversable
 (mountable) dome or island."

 As it is traversable, does it really have a diameter? Or, if there is a
 painted circle (are traversable domed area) on the ground, perhaps that has
 a diameter, but does it matter to any prospective map user?

 Regards,
 Peter

 Peter Neale
 t: 01908 309666
 m: 07968 341930


 On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 17:53:55 GMT, Volker Schmidt <
 vosc...@gmail.com> wrote:


 Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?

 We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to
 mini-roundabouts. Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging






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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Volker Schmidt]

Yes, Phil, I overlooked your last point (and I have UK driving license).
In Italy there are no separate rules or road signs for traversable
roundabouts, hence no interdiction of U-turns. That needs addressing.
Country-specific defaults?

"My" traversable roundabout is in fact often used for U-turns, but only by
shorter vehicles. The articulated trucks I observe, are turning left, not
U-turning, on a four-way layout.



On Thu, 2 Feb 2023, 10:04 Philip Barnes,  wrote:

> A mini roundabout often doesn't usually have a diameter. Most are jus
> normal junctions which have been made mini-roundabouts to set a priority.
>
> So in terms of large vehicles it is the same problem as any other
> junctions, whether they can turn left or right.
>
> In the UK, U turns are prohibited at mini-roundabouts, which I would have
> thought would be the main usecase for a diameter.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> On 2 February 2023 03:31:39 GMT, Matija Nalis <
> mnalis-openstreetmapl...@voyager.hr> wrote:
>>
>> If the actual issue is that HGV cannot pass some road, why not simply mark 
>> it as
>> `hgv=no`? Besides being simple, it has the additional advantage that routers
>> will actually already use it and direct HGVs somewhere where they can 
>> actually
>> pass.
>>
>> Or if some lenghts of HGVs can pass, but others not, then maxlength=*
>> or maxlength:hgv=* or some of the other alternatives from
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxlength ?
>>
>> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 21:25:32 +0100, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>>
>>>  I see that I was not precise with my question: I am after a way to tag the
>>>  overall diameter of the round surface composed of the mini-roundabout road
>>>  surface plus the traversable central part. This is an important measure for
>>>  trucks. I happen to live near one of these with an outer diameter of 12 m,
>>>  and that attracts regularly articulated lorries like the cheese attracts
>>>  flies. This triggered the question.
>>>
>>>  Il giorno mer 25 gen 2023 alle ore 19:10 Peter Neale via Tagging <
>>>  tagging@openstreetmap.org> ha scritto:
>>>
>>>  According to the Wiki (with which I happen to agree), a mini-roundabout is
  defined as:

  "...a special type of roundabout in which the middle can be traversed
   by vehicles, and is
  typically used where there is only limited space available. Road traffic
  flows in one direction around a point in the middle and the traffic in the
  roundabout has right-of-way. The middle of a mini-roundabout is usually
  only a painted circle, but there might also be a low, fully traversable
  (mountable) dome or island."

  As it is traversable, does it really have a diameter?  Or, if there is a
  painted circle (are traversable domed area) on the ground, perhaps that 
 has
  a diameter, but does it matter to any prospective map user?

  Regards,
  Peter

  Peter Neale
  t: 01908 309666
  m: 07968 341930


  On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 17:53:55 GMT, Volker Schmidt <
  vosc...@gmail.com> wrote:


  Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?

  We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to
  mini-roundabouts.
 --
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  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
 --
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  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


>>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Colin Smale]

On 2 February 2023 09:59:01 CET, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>A mini roundabout often doesn't usually have a diameter. Most are jus normal 
>junctions which have been made mini-roundabouts to set a priority.

You mean they don't have a diameter because they are not even close to being 
circular?

In any case they will have an inner diameter being the size of the big white 
dot, which vehicles that are able to avoid, MUST avoid.

>
>So in terms of large vehicles it is the same problem as any other junctions, 
>whether they can turn left or right. 
>
>In the UK, U turns are prohibited at mini-roundabouts, which I would have 
>thought would be the main usecase for a diameter.
>

The Highway Code only uses the word "avoid" which means to me that they are not 
prohibited, just discouraged

>Phil (trigpoint)
>
>On 2 February 2023 03:31:39 GMT, Matija Nalis 
> wrote:
>>If the actual issue is that HGV cannot pass some road, why not simply mark it 
>>as 
>>`hgv=no`? Besides being simple, it has the additional advantage that routers
>>will actually already use it and direct HGVs somewhere where they can 
>>actually 
>>pass.
>>
>>Or if some lenghts of HGVs can pass, but others not, then maxlength=* 
>>or maxlength:hgv=* or some of the other alternatives from 
>>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxlength ?
>>
>>On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 21:25:32 +0100, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>>> I see that I was not precise with my question: I am after a way to tag the
>>> overall diameter of the round surface composed of the mini-roundabout road
>>> surface plus the traversable central part. This is an important measure for
>>> trucks. I happen to live near one of these with an outer diameter of 12 m,
>>> and that attracts regularly articulated lorries like the cheese attracts
>>> flies. This triggered the question.
>>>
>>> Il giorno mer 25 gen 2023 alle ore 19:10 Peter Neale via Tagging <
>>> tagging@openstreetmap.org> ha scritto:
>>>
 According to the Wiki (with which I happen to agree), a mini-roundabout is
 defined as:
>>> >
 "...a special type of roundabout in which the middle can be traversed
  by vehicles, and is
 typically used where there is only limited space available. Road traffic
 flows in one direction around a point in the middle and the traffic in the
 roundabout has right-of-way. The middle of a mini-roundabout is usually
 only a painted circle, but there might also be a low, fully traversable
 (mountable) dome or island."
>>> >
 As it is traversable, does it really have a diameter?  Or, if there is a
 painted circle (are traversable domed area) on the ground, perhaps that has
 a diameter, but does it matter to any prospective map user?
>>> >
 Regards,
 Peter
>>> >
 Peter Neale
 t: 01908 309666
 m: 07968 341930
>>> >
>>> >
 On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 17:53:55 GMT, Volker Schmidt <
 vosc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
 Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?
>>> >
 We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to
 mini-roundabouts.
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>>> >
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Volker Schmidt]

I do have a typical traversable roundabout close by. hgv=no is not correct,
there are commercial activities around that need hgv access. The roads are
adequate for that

The angle between incoming roads is not a suitabla measure, as the
traversable roundabout has a circular "belly", providing additional space
for turning longer vehicles. The diameter of this circular turning space in
this specific location is 12m. The maximum length for articulated trucks is
generally 16m in Italy.

The probable reason why I see relatively frequent problems there, is that
the junction is represented on big-G maps as a normal roundabout (they do
not have a specific way to represent traversable roundabouts) and the size
of this roundabout is a bit large on their map. This junction is on a route
to reach a company that repairs agricultaral machinery, that arrives on
long flat-bed articulated trucks.

Coming back to my original question: could we agree that:

1) highway=mini_roundabout outside the UK is used to describe traversable
roundabouts, provided the traffic rules are the same as on untraversable
roundabouts
2) diameter= x m can be used to describe the available turning area
diameter, if it is roughly circular.
3) we will look into defining an alternative way to describe the
traversable roundabout area in a way similar to bridge or road geometry
(and let us discuss that approach in a new thread)

Volker



On Thu, 2 Feb 2023, 09:58 Mark Reidel,  wrote:

> On Thu, 2023-02-02 at 04:31 +0100, Matija Nalis wrote:
> > If the actual issue is that HGV cannot pass some road, why not simply
> > mark it as `hgv=no`? Besides being simple, it has the additional
> > advantage that routers will actually already use it and direct HGVs
> > somewhere where they can actually pass.
>
> Adding an access-tag like maxlength isn't the correct way to tackle
> this, because:
> a) there is no *legal* restriction that disallows a vehicle of a
> certain length
> b) it's not only about the length, but mostly about the turning radius
> of trucks, which is not necessarily related to their length, especially
> when they have more than 1 trailer.
>
> But overall, I don't see how this is of special importance for a mini
> roundabout with a traversable surface, it being very much identical to
> a regular crossing when you are allowed to go over the inner circle.
> Shouldn't the angle between the two roads the vehicle wants to pass be
> the limiting factor in that case?
>
> --
> Mark aka Nadjita
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Philip Barnes]

A mini roundabout often doesn't usually have a diameter. Most are jus normal 
junctions which have been made mini-roundabouts to set a priority.

So in terms of large vehicles it is the same problem as any other junctions, 
whether they can turn left or right. 

In the UK, U turns are prohibited at mini-roundabouts, which I would have 
thought would be the main usecase for a diameter.

Phil (trigpoint)

On 2 February 2023 03:31:39 GMT, Matija Nalis 
 wrote:
>If the actual issue is that HGV cannot pass some road, why not simply mark it 
>as 
>`hgv=no`? Besides being simple, it has the additional advantage that routers
>will actually already use it and direct HGVs somewhere where they can actually 
>pass.
>
>Or if some lenghts of HGVs can pass, but others not, then maxlength=* 
>or maxlength:hgv=* or some of the other alternatives from 
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxlength ?
>
>On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 21:25:32 +0100, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>> I see that I was not precise with my question: I am after a way to tag the
>> overall diameter of the round surface composed of the mini-roundabout road
>> surface plus the traversable central part. This is an important measure for
>> trucks. I happen to live near one of these with an outer diameter of 12 m,
>> and that attracts regularly articulated lorries like the cheese attracts
>> flies. This triggered the question.
>>
>> Il giorno mer 25 gen 2023 alle ore 19:10 Peter Neale via Tagging <
>> tagging@openstreetmap.org> ha scritto:
>>
>>> According to the Wiki (with which I happen to agree), a mini-roundabout is
>>> defined as:
>> >
>>> "...a special type of roundabout in which the middle can be traversed
>>>  by vehicles, and is
>>> typically used where there is only limited space available. Road traffic
>>> flows in one direction around a point in the middle and the traffic in the
>>> roundabout has right-of-way. The middle of a mini-roundabout is usually
>>> only a painted circle, but there might also be a low, fully traversable
>>> (mountable) dome or island."
>> >
>>> As it is traversable, does it really have a diameter?  Or, if there is a
>>> painted circle (are traversable domed area) on the ground, perhaps that has
>>> a diameter, but does it matter to any prospective map user?
>> >
>>> Regards,
>>> Peter
>> >
>>> Peter Neale
>>> t: 01908 309666
>>> m: 07968 341930
>> >
>> >
>>> On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 17:53:55 GMT, Volker Schmidt <
>>> vosc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>>> Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?
>> >
>>> We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to
>>> mini-roundabouts.
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>> >
>
>
>-- 
>Opinions above are GNU-copylefted.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Mark Reidel]

On Thu, 2023-02-02 at 04:31 +0100, Matija Nalis wrote:
> If the actual issue is that HGV cannot pass some road, why not simply
> mark it as `hgv=no`? Besides being simple, it has the additional
> advantage that routers will actually already use it and direct HGVs
> somewhere where they can actually pass.

Adding an access-tag like maxlength isn't the correct way to tackle
this, because:
a) there is no *legal* restriction that disallows a vehicle of a
certain length
b) it's not only about the length, but mostly about the turning radius
of trucks, which is not necessarily related to their length, especially
when they have more than 1 trailer.

But overall, I don't see how this is of special importance for a mini
roundabout with a traversable surface, it being very much identical to
a regular crossing when you are allowed to go over the inner circle.
Shouldn't the angle between the two roads the vehicle wants to pass be
the limiting factor in that case?

-- 
Mark aka Nadjita

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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Colin Smale]

And, I would add, exceptional transports of up to maybe 100 tons or more may 
get one time permissions to use the road, possibly involving removing street 
furniture to enable the manoeuvre. Changing the physical dimensions of the 
carriageway is a bit more difficult though.

On 2 February 2023 09:39:51 CET, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:
>
>
>sent from a phone
>
>> On 2 Feb 2023, at 04:34, Matija Nalis  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> If the actual issue is that HGV cannot pass some road, why not simply mark 
>> it as 
>> `hgv=no`?
>
>
>because hgv=no means forbidden to hgv (vehicles which may weight more than 
>2.8t).
>
>There are a lot of different sizes for hgv, weight is not the limiting factor 
>in general for curves
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2 Feb 2023, at 04:34, Matija Nalis  
> wrote:
> 
> If the actual issue is that HGV cannot pass some road, why not simply mark it 
> as 
> `hgv=no`?


because hgv=no means forbidden to hgv (vehicles which may weight more than 
2.8t).

There are a lot of different sizes for hgv, weight is not the limiting factor 
in general for curves
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[stevea]

On Jan 29, 2023, at 5:31 AM, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 12:12:06AM +, Philip Barnes wrote:
>> 
>> When I first encountered Canadian four way stops in 1980, I did think these 
>> should be mini-roundabouts. 
> 
> Thats the main point. In Germany we have a solution of "last resort"
> which is called "Rechts vor links" - So when there is no other 
> rules of priority its "Right before left".
> 
> Other jurisdications dont have this so there is a problem with producing
> junctions with "equal priority". The UK solution is the "mini
> roundabout".

I don't usually jump on a post simply to disagree with it (it makes me sound 
"simply contrarian" and "argument provoking," which I am not), but I must do so 
here and now.  I am not an attorney.  In my state of California in the USA, at 
four-way stop-signs, we have a right-of-way law (California Vehicle Code §21800 
et al) which states essentially the same thing as what Florian calls Germany's 
"last resort:"  it says

"When two vehicles enter an intersection from different highways at the same 
time, the driver of the vehicle on the left shall yield the right-of-way to the 
vehicle on his or her immediate right."

So, please don't say "other jurisdictions don't have this," as obviously, some 
do.  Thank you.
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Matija Nalis]

If the actual issue is that HGV cannot pass some road, why not simply mark it 
as 
`hgv=no`? Besides being simple, it has the additional advantage that routers
will actually already use it and direct HGVs somewhere where they can actually 
pass.

Or if some lenghts of HGVs can pass, but others not, then maxlength=* 
or maxlength:hgv=* or some of the other alternatives from 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxlength ?

On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 21:25:32 +0100, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> I see that I was not precise with my question: I am after a way to tag the
> overall diameter of the round surface composed of the mini-roundabout road
> surface plus the traversable central part. This is an important measure for
> trucks. I happen to live near one of these with an outer diameter of 12 m,
> and that attracts regularly articulated lorries like the cheese attracts
> flies. This triggered the question.
>
> Il giorno mer 25 gen 2023 alle ore 19:10 Peter Neale via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> ha scritto:
>
>> According to the Wiki (with which I happen to agree), a mini-roundabout is
>> defined as:
> >
>> "...a special type of roundabout in which the middle can be traversed
>>  by vehicles, and is
>> typically used where there is only limited space available. Road traffic
>> flows in one direction around a point in the middle and the traffic in the
>> roundabout has right-of-way. The middle of a mini-roundabout is usually
>> only a painted circle, but there might also be a low, fully traversable
>> (mountable) dome or island."
> >
>> As it is traversable, does it really have a diameter?  Or, if there is a
>> painted circle (are traversable domed area) on the ground, perhaps that has
>> a diameter, but does it matter to any prospective map user?
> >
>> Regards,
>> Peter
> >
>> Peter Neale
>> t: 01908 309666
>> m: 07968 341930
> >
> >
>> On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 17:53:55 GMT, Volker Schmidt <
>> vosc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
>> Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?
> >
>> We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to
>> mini-roundabouts.
>> ___
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> >


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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

The old Australian version of what I think is the same thing were nicknamed
Silent Cops.

Article about them:
https://www.shannons.com.au/club/forum/general/who-remembers-silent-cops/

Thanks

Graeme


On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 at 07:04, Colin Smale  wrote:

> The "Priority to the right" rule doesn't cover everything. Imagine a
> junction with two cars coming simultaneously from side roads on opposite
> sides of another road at right angles. Both want to leave the junction on
> the orthogonal road, in the same direction. One is making a right turn, and
> the other is making a left turn. Who goes first? The tiebreaker rule is
> what (I believe) Florian is calling "right before left," in the Netherlands
> it's called "shortest turn first". The car that is making the right turn
> goes before the car turning left.
>
> The "priority to the right" rule is normally only encountered in
> residential areas and very rural areas, where the roads are deemed to be of
> equal significance. Where a road with substantial through traffic is
> involved the priority situation is usually made clear by signs (give
> way/stop, sometimes plus yellow diamond on through road) and road markings.
>
> > On 29/01/2023 19:26 CET Philip Barnes  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 2023-01-29 at 14:31 +0100, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 12:12:06AM +, Philip Barnes wrote:
> > > >
> > > > When I first encountered Canadian four way stops in 1980, I did
> > > > think these should be mini-roundabouts.
> > >
> > > Thats the main point. In Germany we have a solution of "last resort"
> > > which is called "Rechts vor links" - So when there is no other
> > > rules of priority its "Right before left".
> >
> > That is a rule I believe exists in most of continental Europe. I
> > certainly learned of it as ‘Priorité à droite’ in French lessons at
> > school.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Other jurisdications dont have this so there is a problem with
> > > producing
> > > junctions with "equal priority". The UK solution is the "mini
> > > roundabout".
> > >
> > > So a mini roundabout is really "mini" or "tiny" - Not necessarily
> > > round.
> > A roundabout isn't necessarily round either :)
> >
> > It about going around, the name comes from the fairground roundabout
> > (carousel in American English) or a children's roundabout in
> > playground.
> >
> > A mini-roundabout in the UK, and in France which is the country which
> > comes second in terms of my driving experience are signed with a blue
> > sign with white arrows. Different to a normal roundabout. They are
> > always traversable but doing so is often made uncomfortable for small
> > vehicles by either building them up with concrete so they can be the
> > height of a speed bump or with the use of setts.
> >
> > Others are just white paint at what was once a give way and nobody goes
> > around the paint. They just make priority equal.
> > https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=381114187015295
> >
> >
> > I did spot this one today,
> > https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=509797140032524 which is
> > traversable by a truck, but you wouldn't want to in a car.
> >
> >
> > > The problem here starts with the imagery in the Wiki which IMHO dont
> > > show mini roundabouts, but random roundabouts with traversable
> > > center.
> > Am not sure what you mean, all of the photos that say mini-roundabout,
> > I would interpret as such. The one that looks different is
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/5/5e/Kreisverkehr.jpg but it
> > has the mini-roundabout sign so I would treat it a a mini-roundabout. A
> > large vehicle turning would have to cross the island. In reality most
> > drivers would go straight over it.
> > >
> > > And main distinction people read in the wiki is "traversable center"
> > > so
> > > everything with a traversable center gets tagged by mappers as mini
> > > roundabout.
> > >
> > I don't think I have ever come across a roundabout with a traversable
> > centre, why would it even exist?
> >
> > > So we have a problem with the wiki documentation.
> > It looks fine to me, although mini-roundabouts were common in the UK by
> > the time I was learning to drive in the late 70s.
> >
> > Phil (trigpoint)
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Colin Smale]

The "Priority to the right" rule doesn't cover everything. Imagine a junction 
with two cars coming simultaneously from side roads on opposite sides of 
another road at right angles. Both want to leave the junction on the orthogonal 
road, in the same direction. One is making a right turn, and the other is 
making a left turn. Who goes first? The tiebreaker rule is what (I believe) 
Florian is calling "right before left," in the Netherlands it's called 
"shortest turn first". The car that is making the right turn goes before the 
car turning left.

The "priority to the right" rule is normally only encountered in residential 
areas and very rural areas, where the roads are deemed to be of equal 
significance. Where a road with substantial through traffic is involved the 
priority situation is usually made clear by signs (give way/stop, sometimes 
plus yellow diamond on through road) and road markings.

> On 29/01/2023 19:26 CET Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
>  
> On Sun, 2023-01-29 at 14:31 +0100, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> > On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 12:12:06AM +, Philip Barnes wrote:
> > > 
> > > When I first encountered Canadian four way stops in 1980, I did
> > > think these should be mini-roundabouts. 
> > 
> > Thats the main point. In Germany we have a solution of "last resort"
> > which is called "Rechts vor links" - So when there is no other 
> > rules of priority its "Right before left".
> 
> That is a rule I believe exists in most of continental Europe. I
> certainly learned of it as ‘Priorité à droite’ in French lessons at
> school.
> 
> 
> > 
> > Other jurisdications dont have this so there is a problem with
> > producing
> > junctions with "equal priority". The UK solution is the "mini
> > roundabout".
> > 
> > So a mini roundabout is really "mini" or "tiny" - Not necessarily
> > round.
> A roundabout isn't necessarily round either :)
> 
> It about going around, the name comes from the fairground roundabout
> (carousel in American English) or a children's roundabout in
> playground.
> 
> A mini-roundabout in the UK, and in France which is the country which
> comes second in terms of my driving experience are signed with a blue
> sign with white arrows. Different to a normal roundabout. They are
> always traversable but doing so is often made uncomfortable for small
> vehicles by either building them up with concrete so they can be the
> height of a speed bump or with the use of setts.
> 
> Others are just white paint at what was once a give way and nobody goes
> around the paint. They just make priority equal.
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=381114187015295
> 
> 
> I did spot this one today,
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=509797140032524 which is
> traversable by a truck, but you wouldn't want to in a car.
> 
> 
> > The problem here starts with the imagery in the Wiki which IMHO dont
> > show mini roundabouts, but random roundabouts with traversable
> > center.
> Am not sure what you mean, all of the photos that say mini-roundabout,
> I would interpret as such. The one that looks different is
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/5/5e/Kreisverkehr.jpg but it
> has the mini-roundabout sign so I would treat it a a mini-roundabout. A
> large vehicle turning would have to cross the island. In reality most
> drivers would go straight over it.
> > 
> > And main distinction people read in the wiki is "traversable center"
> > so
> > everything with a traversable center gets tagged by mappers as mini
> > roundabout.
> > 
> I don't think I have ever come across a roundabout with a traversable
> centre, why would it even exist?
> 
> > So we have a problem with the wiki documentation. 
> It looks fine to me, although mini-roundabouts were common in the UK by
> the time I was learning to drive in the late 70s.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2023-01-29 at 14:31 +0100, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 12:12:06AM +, Philip Barnes wrote:
> > 
> > When I first encountered Canadian four way stops in 1980, I did
> > think these should be mini-roundabouts. 
> 
> Thats the main point. In Germany we have a solution of "last resort"
> which is called "Rechts vor links" - So when there is no other 
> rules of priority its "Right before left".

That is a rule I believe exists in most of continental Europe. I
certainly learned of it as ‘Priorité à droite’ in French lessons at
school.


> 
> Other jurisdications dont have this so there is a problem with
> producing
> junctions with "equal priority". The UK solution is the "mini
> roundabout".
> 
> So a mini roundabout is really "mini" or "tiny" - Not necessarily
> round.
A roundabout isn't necessarily round either :)

It about going around, the name comes from the fairground roundabout
(carousel in American English) or a children's roundabout in
playground.

A mini-roundabout in the UK, and in France which is the country which
comes second in terms of my driving experience are signed with a blue
sign with white arrows. Different to a normal roundabout. They are
always traversable but doing so is often made uncomfortable for small
vehicles by either building them up with concrete so they can be the
height of a speed bump or with the use of setts.

Others are just white paint at what was once a give way and nobody goes
around the paint. They just make priority equal.
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=381114187015295


I did spot this one today,
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=509797140032524 which is
traversable by a truck, but you wouldn't want to in a car.


> The problem here starts with the imagery in the Wiki which IMHO dont
> show mini roundabouts, but random roundabouts with traversable
> center.
Am not sure what you mean, all of the photos that say mini-roundabout,
I would interpret as such. The one that looks different is
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/5/5e/Kreisverkehr.jpg but it
has the mini-roundabout sign so I would treat it a a mini-roundabout. A
large vehicle turning would have to cross the island. In reality most
drivers would go straight over it.
> 
> And main distinction people read in the wiki is "traversable center"
> so
> everything with a traversable center gets tagged by mappers as mini
> roundabout.
> 
I don't think I have ever come across a roundabout with a traversable
centre, why would it even exist?

> So we have a problem with the wiki documentation. 
It looks fine to me, although mini-roundabouts were common in the UK by
the time I was learning to drive in the late 70s.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Florian Lohoff]

On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 12:12:06AM +, Philip Barnes wrote:
> 
> When I first encountered Canadian four way stops in 1980, I did think these 
> should be mini-roundabouts. 

Thats the main point. In Germany we have a solution of "last resort"
which is called "Rechts vor links" - So when there is no other 
rules of priority its "Right before left".

Other jurisdications dont have this so there is a problem with producing
junctions with "equal priority". The UK solution is the "mini
roundabout".

So a mini roundabout is really "mini" or "tiny" - Not necessarily round.

The problem here starts with the imagery in the Wiki which IMHO dont
show mini roundabouts, but random roundabouts with traversable center.

And main distinction people read in the wiki is "traversable center" so
everything with a traversable center gets tagged by mappers as mini
roundabout.


So we have a problem with the wiki documentation. 


Flo
-- 
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  Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Colin Smale]

I was trying to offer a universal model that would accommodate both "true" 
roundabouts and mini-roundabouts.
 
In the UK you are expected to make an effort to drive around the "dustbin lid" 
(painted circle) in the middle of the mini-roundabout, but that only makes 
sense for smaller vehicles. Larger things just drive straight over it of course.
 
I disagree that a truck driver is really not supposed to use what you call the 
Truck Apron. It is simply unavoidable for anything longer than a car. Better to 
use the inner ring than to go over the outer kerb trying to avoid it. That's 
what it's there for. In law it depends on whether you consider it part of the 
"rijbaan" or not, and opinions are divided on this. There are however many 
reasons for pushing traffic towards the outside of the circle, including 
regulating the speed, minimising overtaking and improving sight lines.
 
Modelling "turbo-roundabouts" (a real Dutch speciality) is a whole different 
can of worms.
 
By the way, for (very) large vehicles there is a technique called Swept Path 
Analysis, which can be used to calculate whether it will "fit" and be able to 
take a junction. It needs the geometry of the junction, but of course it also 
needs to know a lot more about the vehicle itself which is way beyond OSM.
 
By the way, I live in NL and my son is a traffic policeman...
 
 

> On 29/01/2023 00:17 CET Peter Elderson  wrote:
>  
>  
> Op za 28 jan. 2023 om 23:38 schreef Colin Smale  mailto:colin.sm...@xs4all.nl>:
> 
> > A form of roundabout common in the Netherlands has an inner ring which is 
> > often distinctly coloured and slightly raised, thus making it clear that 
> > traffic is intended to avoid it and use the outer ring, while keeping it 
> > perfectly usable by most vehicles.
> > Example: 
> > https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotonde_(verkeer)#/media/Bestand:N746-Noordergraafsingel-Harbrinkhoek.jpg
> > 
> > 
>  
> The raised part is the truck apron. Traffic, including trucks, is not 
> dsupposed to use the truck apron. The kerb and the raised part warn the 
> trucker who forgets that.
> The roundabout shown there is a true roundabout. Mini-roundabouts do not 
> exist in Nederland, but we do have fake roundabouts (dot or circle in the 
> middle, possibly raised, no kerb, no roundabout rules. 
> Come to mention it, true roundabouts by themselves do not have special 
> priority rules in Nederland, just the oneway rule indicated by the roundabout 
> traffic signs. However, .priority is almost always indicated by at least 
> shark's teeth. If it isn't, traffic from the right has priority, same as on 
> regular junctions. (We're driving on the right).
> 
> As for diameters, I think the (minimal) turning circle or maximal rigid 
> vehicle length is what traffic needs. I am not sure that it can be calculated 
> from the diameters of inner centre circle, outer centre circle and 
> circumference of the entire traffic area.
>  
> 
> > 
> > > On 28/01/2023 22:12 CET Philip Barnes  > > mailto:p...@trigpoint.me.uk> wrote:
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Diameter implies there is something circular. The paint is often round, 
> > > not always, but most are just former T junctions or cross-roads where 
> > > there is nothing to measure the diameter of .
> > > 
> > > Phil (trigpoint)
> > > 
> > > On 25 January 2023 17:50:54 GMT, Volker Schmidt  > > mailto:vosc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?
> > > >  
> > > > We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to 
> > > > mini-roundabouts.
> > > > 
> > > ___
> > > Tagging mailing list
> > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > > 
> > ___
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> > 
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Philip Barnes]

On 28 January 2023 23:47:38 GMT, Peter Elderson  wrote:
>The mini-roundabout just adds priority on the MR to the general keep left 
>rule, that is my understanding. 

They are to give equal priority to all roads at a junction, usually where 
traffic flow would block traffic from side roads.

They are usually only used where there is not enough space for a roundabout.

When I first encountered Canadian four way stops in 1980, I did think these 
should be mini-roundabouts. 

Phil (trigpoint)
>
>Peter Elderson
>
>> Op 29 jan. 2023 om 00:37 heeft Florian Lohoff  het volgende 
>> geschreven:
>> 
>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 09:12:11PM +, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>> Diameter implies there is something circular. The paint is often
>>> round, not always, but most are just former T junctions or cross-roads
>>> where there is nothing to measure the diameter of .
>> 
>> Thats exactly the point. The mini_roundabout is a UK speciality and most
>> likely should not have appeared anywhere else.
>> 
>> 
>> A mini_roundabout _must_ have a traversable center, a traversable center
>> does _not_ make a mini_roundabout.
>> 
>> 
>> Thats the major misconception a lot of people have.
>> 
>> Flo
>> -- 
>> Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
>>  Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Peter Elderson]

The mini-roundabout just adds priority on the MR to the general keep left rule, 
that is my understanding. 

Peter Elderson

> Op 29 jan. 2023 om 00:37 heeft Florian Lohoff  het volgende 
> geschreven:
> 
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 09:12:11PM +, Philip Barnes wrote:
>> Diameter implies there is something circular. The paint is often
>> round, not always, but most are just former T junctions or cross-roads
>> where there is nothing to measure the diameter of .
> 
> Thats exactly the point. The mini_roundabout is a UK speciality and most
> likely should not have appeared anywhere else.
> 
> 
> A mini_roundabout _must_ have a traversable center, a traversable center
> does _not_ make a mini_roundabout.
> 
> 
> Thats the major misconception a lot of people have.
> 
> Flo
> -- 
> Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
>  Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Philip Barnes]

On 28 January 2023 23:17:59 GMT, Peter Elderson  wrote:
>Op za 28 jan. 2023 om 23:38 schreef Colin Smale :
>
>> A form of roundabout common in the Netherlands has an inner ring which is
>> often distinctly coloured and slightly raised, thus making it clear that
>> traffic is intended to avoid it and use the outer ring, while keeping it
>> perfectly usable by most vehicles.
>> Example:
>> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotonde_(verkeer)#/media/Bestand:N746-Noordergraafsingel-Harbrinkhoek.jpg
>>
>>
>
>The raised part is the truck apron. Traffic, including trucks, is not
>dsupposed to use the truck apron. The kerb and the raised part warn the
>trucker who forgets that.
>The roundabout shown there is a true roundabout. Mini-roundabouts do not
>exist in Nederland, but we do have fake roundabouts (dot or circle in the
>middle, possibly raised, no kerb, no roundabout rules.
>Come to mention it, true roundabouts by themselves do not have special
>priority rules in Nederland, just the oneway rule indicated by the
>roundabout traffic signs. However, .priority is almost always indicated by
>at least shark's teeth. If it isn't, traffic from the right has priority,
>same as on regular junctions. (We're driving on the right).
>
>As for diameters, I think the (minimal) turning circle or maximal rigid
>vehicle length is what traffic needs. I am not sure that it can be
>calculated from the diameters of inner centre circle, outer centre circle
>and circumference of the entire traffic area.

Would that not only be relevant if trying to do a U turn (which is illegal at 
mini-roundabout).

Phil (trigpoint)
>
>On 28/01/2023 22:12 CET Philip Barnes  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Diameter implies there is something circular. The paint is often round,
>> not always, but most are just former T junctions or cross-roads where there
>> is nothing to measure the diameter of .
>>
>> Phil (trigpoint)
>>
>> On 25 January 2023 17:50:54 GMT, Volker Schmidt 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?
>>
>> We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to
>> mini-roundabouts.
>>
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>>

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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Florian Lohoff]

On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 09:12:11PM +, Philip Barnes wrote:
> Diameter implies there is something circular. The paint is often
> round, not always, but most are just former T junctions or cross-roads
> where there is nothing to measure the diameter of .

Thats exactly the point. The mini_roundabout is a UK speciality and most
likely should not have appeared anywhere else.


A mini_roundabout _must_ have a traversable center, a traversable center
does _not_ make a mini_roundabout.


Thats the major misconception a lot of people have.

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Peter Elderson]

Op za 28 jan. 2023 om 23:38 schreef Colin Smale :

> A form of roundabout common in the Netherlands has an inner ring which is
> often distinctly coloured and slightly raised, thus making it clear that
> traffic is intended to avoid it and use the outer ring, while keeping it
> perfectly usable by most vehicles.
> Example:
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotonde_(verkeer)#/media/Bestand:N746-Noordergraafsingel-Harbrinkhoek.jpg
>
>

The raised part is the truck apron. Traffic, including trucks, is not
dsupposed to use the truck apron. The kerb and the raised part warn the
trucker who forgets that.
The roundabout shown there is a true roundabout. Mini-roundabouts do not
exist in Nederland, but we do have fake roundabouts (dot or circle in the
middle, possibly raised, no kerb, no roundabout rules.
Come to mention it, true roundabouts by themselves do not have special
priority rules in Nederland, just the oneway rule indicated by the
roundabout traffic signs. However, .priority is almost always indicated by
at least shark's teeth. If it isn't, traffic from the right has priority,
same as on regular junctions. (We're driving on the right).

As for diameters, I think the (minimal) turning circle or maximal rigid
vehicle length is what traffic needs. I am not sure that it can be
calculated from the diameters of inner centre circle, outer centre circle
and circumference of the entire traffic area.

On 28/01/2023 22:12 CET Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
>
> Diameter implies there is something circular. The paint is often round,
> not always, but most are just former T junctions or cross-roads where there
> is nothing to measure the diameter of .
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> On 25 January 2023 17:50:54 GMT, Volker Schmidt 
> wrote:
>
> Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?
>
> We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to
> mini-roundabouts.
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Colin Smale]

Generalising for all roundabouts, I propose a model in which there are three 
diameters:
 
D1) outer diameter, where the outer kerb is
D2) "guide" inner diameter, the outer diameter of the inner ring intended to 
"discourage" traffic
D3) inner diameter, where the inner kerb or wall is (not traversable)
 
A mini-roundabout with no central obstruction will have D3=0 but may have D2>0 
(possibly 1m-3m)
A normal UK roundabout will not use D2
A form of roundabout common in the Netherlands has an inner ring which is often 
distinctly coloured and slightly raised, thus making it clear that traffic is 
intended to avoid it and use the outer ring, while keeping it perfectly usable 
by most vehicles.
Example: 
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotonde_(verkeer)#/media/Bestand:N746-Noordergraafsingel-Harbrinkhoek.jpg
 
These numbers can be used for simple navigation instructions as has been 
mentioned. But they could also be useful for route planning for oversize 
transports: can they make it around/across, given the available road width and 
the geometry of the turn they want to take?
 
Generalising further could replace circles and their diameters with concentric 
polygons to allow for odd-shaped roundabouts, but that might be a bridge too 
far at the moment?
 

> On 28/01/2023 22:12 CET Philip Barnes  wrote:
>  
>  
> Diameter implies there is something circular. The paint is often round, not 
> always, but most are just former T junctions or cross-roads where there is 
> nothing to measure the diameter of .
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> On 25 January 2023 17:50:54 GMT, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> > Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?
> >  
> > We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to 
> > mini-roundabouts.
> > 
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Philip Barnes]

On 27 January 2023 21:29:49 GMT, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
>Hi,
>
>On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 09:25:32PM +0100, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>> I see that I was not precise with my question: I am after a way to tag the
>> overall diameter of the round surface composed of the mini-roundabout road
>> surface plus the traversable central part. This is an important measure for
>> trucks. I happen to live near one of these with an outer diameter of 12 m,
>> and that attracts regularly articulated lorries like the cheese attracts
>> flies. This triggered the question.
>
>There has been a pretty lenghty discussion in the German forum just a
>couple days back which i started. 
>
>I started a discussion about mini_roundabouts here too a couple years
>back.
>
>I still find the concept of tagging a "mini roundabout" _broken by
>design_.
>
>The main difference we have in usage is - A mini roundabout will never
>cause any announcements like "3rd exit" it will be "turn left". This
>will be pretty confusing for anything larger that a small residential
>street. 
I do find the lack of acknowledgement of mini-roundabouts by routers a strange 
omission. 

They just need to say Turn left/turn right/go straight on at the 
mini-roundabout the same as a human passenger does if they are giving 
directions. In terms of on-screen directions just use the normal turn arrows 
with a blue mini roundabout sign in the middle.


>
>And i think the misconception is still what a mini roundabout is. 
>A mini roundabout is not a mini roundabout because its center is
>traverseable. Its a matter of fixing a priority problem in busy
>junctions. 
I'm not sure I understand why there is any confusion. They are traversable.

>
>So in case you have 12m diameter and a traversable center i would not
>say thats a mini_roundabout.
Not sure about diameter, that implies something is round. The paint usually is, 
but the area around it very rarely is.


>
>And while at it - We should introduce a tag "traversable=yes" or
>something on the junction=roundabout way.

Why? Mini-roundabout is the standard name everyone knows, it's not just an OSM 
tag. If I told my girlfriend to turn right at the traversable roundabout she 
would be very confused.

Drawing a roundabout way in the space would usually be challenging, many you 
wouldn't attempt to go around.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Philip Barnes]

Diameter implies there is something circular. The paint is often round, not 
always, but most are just former T junctions or cross-roads where there is 
nothing to measure the diameter of .

Phil (trigpoint)

On 25 January 2023 17:50:54 GMT, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?
>
>We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to
>mini-roundabouts.
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

I think the point was that the units are explicitly tagged in meters,
whereas in other cases (like ele), the unit assumed to be meters and you
can just put a number by itself.

On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 3:14 PM stevea  wrote:

> Using mm (millimeters) as a unit for this makes no sense.  Meters are much
> better in my opinion.  I understand water tubes and pipe threads might be
> well-stated in mm (for "household" and "everyday" use, not hydrology
> engineers and sewerage architects), but water tubes and pipe threads are
> not roads and roundabouts.
>
> We can decide upon meters here (if we don't).  We can.
>
> > On Jan 28, 2023, at 12:44 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> > The mm is because it's intended do describe water tubes and pipe
> threads, and not roads. That is why I have doubts using it for the
> mini-roundabout.
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[stevea]

Using mm (millimeters) as a unit for this makes no sense.  Meters are much 
better in my opinion.  I understand water tubes and pipe threads might be 
well-stated in mm (for "household" and "everyday" use, not hydrology engineers 
and sewerage architects), but water tubes and pipe threads are not roads and 
roundabouts.

We can decide upon meters here (if we don't).  We can.

> On Jan 28, 2023, at 12:44 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> The mm is because it's intended do describe water tubes and pipe threads, and 
> not roads. That is why I have doubts using it for the mini-roundabout.

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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Mark Reidel]

On Sat, 2023-01-28 at 09:44 +0100, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> The mm is because it's intended do describe water tubes and pipe threads,
> and not roads. That is why I have doubts using it for the mini-roundabout.

The Wiki-page for diameter explicitly mentions the use for turning_circle
and turning_loop, so I would not hesitate to apply the same logic to (mini)
roundabouts.

- Mark aka Nadjita


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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Volker Schmidt]

The mm is because it's intended do describe water tubes and pipe threads,
and not roads. That is why I have doubts using it for the mini-roundabout.

On Sat, 28 Jan 2023, 09:20 Mark Reidel,  wrote:

> On Sat, 2023-01-28 at 00:53 +0100, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> > What I am after is tagging the dimension of mini-roundabouts. This seems
> > to be useful information for longer vehicles. The specific
> mini-roundabout
> > that triggered the question is this one, and it has a diameter of about
> > 12m, and, yes, it is a mini-roundabout.
>
> I would tag the diameter the same as a highway=turning_loop, meaning:
>
> diameter=12 m
> inner_diameter=XX m
>
> where inner_diameter is the size of the traversable area in the middle. If
> there is none to tag, then solely diameter=12 m.
>
> For whatever reason, diameter is mm by default, so be careful ;)
>
> - Mark aka Nadjita
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Mark Reidel]

On Sat, 2023-01-28 at 00:53 +0100, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> What I am after is tagging the dimension of mini-roundabouts. This seems
> to be useful information for longer vehicles. The specific mini-roundabout
> that triggered the question is this one, and it has a diameter of about
> 12m, and, yes, it is a mini-roundabout.

I would tag the diameter the same as a highway=turning_loop, meaning:

diameter=12 m
inner_diameter=XX m

where inner_diameter is the size of the traversable area in the middle. If
there is none to tag, then solely diameter=12 m.

For whatever reason, diameter is mm by default, so be careful ;)

- Mark aka Nadjita

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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Volker Schmidt]

Florian,
I saw that discussion on the German list. I don't understand it.
I am familiar with the difference between a roundabout and a
mini-roundabout. The difference is essentially the traversability of the
centre, and the size. In the UK, where the OSM tagging was born, they have
different road signs. Here in Italy they do not have different signs, and
the only difference is the traversability.
The rules are the same for both.

So the traversability being the difference between the two, it is useless
to discuss the traversability of junction=roundabout. If the center is
traversable it is, in OSM,  not a junction=roundabout, but a
highway=mini_roundabout. This is an old established tagging, and I do not
see any need to change that.
What I am after is tagging the dimension of mini-roundabouts. This seems to
be useful information for longer vehicles. The specific mini-roundabout
that triggered the question is this one
, and it has a
diameter of about 12m, and, yes, it is a mini-roundabout.
Volker


Il giorno ven 27 gen 2023 alle ore 22:35 Florian Lohoff  ha
scritto:

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 09:25:32PM +0100, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> > I see that I was not precise with my question: I am after a way to tag
> the
> > overall diameter of the round surface composed of the mini-roundabout
> road
> > surface plus the traversable central part. This is an important measure
> for
> > trucks. I happen to live near one of these with an outer diameter of 12
> m,
> > and that attracts regularly articulated lorries like the cheese attracts
> > flies. This triggered the question.
>
> There has been a pretty lenghty discussion in the German forum just a
> couple days back which i started.
>
> I started a discussion about mini_roundabouts here too a couple years
> back.
>
> I still find the concept of tagging a "mini roundabout" _broken by
> design_.
>
> The main difference we have in usage is - A mini roundabout will never
> cause any announcements like "3rd exit" it will be "turn left". This
> will be pretty confusing for anything larger that a small residential
> street.
>
> And i think the misconception is still what a mini roundabout is.
> A mini roundabout is not a mini roundabout because its center is
> traverseable. Its a matter of fixing a priority problem in busy
> junctions.
>
> So in case you have 12m diameter and a traversable center i would not
> say thats a mini_roundabout.
>
> And while at it - We should introduce a tag "traversable=yes" or
> something on the junction=roundabout way.
>
> Flo
> --
> Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
>   Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi,

On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 09:25:32PM +0100, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> I see that I was not precise with my question: I am after a way to tag the
> overall diameter of the round surface composed of the mini-roundabout road
> surface plus the traversable central part. This is an important measure for
> trucks. I happen to live near one of these with an outer diameter of 12 m,
> and that attracts regularly articulated lorries like the cheese attracts
> flies. This triggered the question.

There has been a pretty lenghty discussion in the German forum just a
couple days back which i started. 

I started a discussion about mini_roundabouts here too a couple years
back.

I still find the concept of tagging a "mini roundabout" _broken by
design_.

The main difference we have in usage is - A mini roundabout will never
cause any announcements like "3rd exit" it will be "turn left". This
will be pretty confusing for anything larger that a small residential
street. 

And i think the misconception is still what a mini roundabout is. 
A mini roundabout is not a mini roundabout because its center is
traverseable. Its a matter of fixing a priority problem in busy
junctions. 

So in case you have 12m diameter and a traversable center i would not
say thats a mini_roundabout.

And while at it - We should introduce a tag "traversable=yes" or
something on the junction=roundabout way.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
  Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Volker Schmidt]

I see that I was not precise with my question: I am after a way to tag the
overall diameter of the round surface composed of the mini-roundabout road
surface plus the traversable central part. This is an important measure for
trucks. I happen to live near one of these with an outer diameter of 12 m,
and that attracts regularly articulated lorries like the cheese attracts
flies. This triggered the question.

Il giorno mer 25 gen 2023 alle ore 19:10 Peter Neale via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> ha scritto:

> According to the Wiki (with which I happen to agree), a mini-roundabout is
> defined as:
>
> "...a special type of roundabout in which the middle can be traversed
>  by vehicles, and is
> typically used where there is only limited space available. Road traffic
> flows in one direction around a point in the middle and the traffic in the
> roundabout has right-of-way. The middle of a mini-roundabout is usually
> only a painted circle, but there might also be a low, fully traversable
> (mountable) dome or island."
>
> As it is traversable, does it really have a diameter?  Or, if there is a
> painted circle (are traversable domed area) on the ground, perhaps that has
> a diameter, but does it matter to any prospective map user?
>
> Regards,
> Peter
>
> Peter Neale
> t: 01908 309666
> m: 07968 341930
>
>
> On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 17:53:55 GMT, Volker Schmidt <
> vosc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?
>
> We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to
> mini-roundabouts.
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Peter Neale via Tagging]

According to the Wiki (with which I happen to agree), a mini-roundabout is 
defined as:
"...a special type of roundabout in which the middle can be traversed by 
vehicles, and is typically used where there is only limited space available. 
Road traffic flows in one direction around a point in the middle and the 
traffic in the roundabout has right-of-way. The middle of a mini-roundabout is 
usually only a painted circle, but there might also be a low, fully traversable 
(mountable) dome or island."

As it is traversable, does it really have a diameter?  Or, if there is a 
painted circle (are traversable domed area) on the ground, perhaps that has a 
diameter, but does it matter to any prospective map user?
Regards,Peter
 Peter Neale 
t: 01908 309666 
m: 07968 341930
 

On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 17:53:55 GMT, Volker Schmidt 
 wrote:  
 
 Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?
We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to mini-roundabouts.
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[Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Volker Schmidt]

Is there an established way to tag the diameter of a mini-roundabout?

We have the tag diameter, but I could not find it applied to
mini-roundabouts.
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