Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
You miss the point, Martin. "I use hotels, apartments and an occassional B&B a lot and in many different countries. The name people use for their accommodation is inconsistent at best. I think the best way to tackle this is to use sub-keys to define the facilities on offer." In other words, trying to define whether it 'is' a guest house or a bed & breakfast (or a small hotel) won't work. Different people will name the same thing differently. So we need to define the facilities offered, not the name. (IMHO.) - Original Message - From: "Martin Koppenhoefer" To: "Frank Little" ; "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 12:09 AM Subject: Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ? 2013/10/19 Frank Little I use hotels, apartments and an occassional B&B a lot and in many different countries. The name people use for their accommodation is inconsistent at best. yes, that's why we are defining what the osm tags are about... cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
2013/10/19 Frank Little > I use hotels, apartments and an occassional B&B a lot and in many > different countries. > The name people use for their accommodation is inconsistent at best. > yes, that's why we are defining what the osm tags are about... cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
Presence or absence of a kitchen for the traveller does not define for me whether it is a guest house or not. I've stayed in places in Egypt and Pakistan which our company certainly called 'the guest house' which had kitchens. They did not have live-in owners or staff (but did have people to prepare lunch; we used it in the evening). I've stayed in guest houses which were like a bed & breakfast place with a live in owner. And even ones which were more like small hotels. I use hotels, apartments and an occassional B&B a lot and in many different countries. The name people use for their accommodation is inconsistent at best. I think the best way to tackle this is to use sub-keys to define the facilities on offer. - Original Message - From: "Martin Koppenhoefer" To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ? 2013/10/17 Dudley Ibbett From a tourists perspective it is quite important to know whether it is self catering accommodation or not. It is also important to know whether it is a single building unit (i.e. house,cottage,chalet) as opposed to a number of units in a building (i.e. apartments). I would be inclined to use tourism=apartments for the latter. +1, an appartment would have a kitchen, while a guest house wouldn't (often) have a kitchen at disposition for the tourist, nor would a bed and breakfast typically. I also agree with the distinction chalet/cottage/hut and apartment. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
+1 to that. Just returned from a week's stay in a short-let apartment in Brussels, which was certainly completely different from the hotels, guest houses or bed & breakfast places I could have stayed in (and I chose it specifically for that reason). This was a single apartment; I've often stayed in an 'aparthotel' but that should also be classed as =apartment not =hotel. It would also help to have sub-keys showing the number of apartments and whether there is a reception, facilities, etc. These are relevant distinctions for someone using the data to search for appropriate accommodation. I'm not so sure about tourism=* (I was there for work; most short-term apartment lets in Brussels are work-related,as was mine.) But since all these accommodations are so classed, it will have to do. - Original Message - From: "Dudley Ibbett" To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ? As a humble surveyor and editor I would ask that we have tourism=apartment at the first level. An apartment is quite distinct from a hotel and a guest_house and we already separate out these along with motel, hostel and chalet at this level. The only debate for myself would be is at to whether it should be tourism=apartment or tourism=apartments. In many cases you will have a number of apartments for rent in a apartment building block but not necessarily all. In which case I presume it would be most appropriate to put a node in the building area rather than tagging the building area. Would you therefore need to put in a node for each apartment if it was tourism=apartment? Regards Dudley ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
As a humble surveyor and editor I would ask that we have tourism=apartment at the first level. An apartment is quite distinct from a hotel and a guest_house and we already separate out these along with motel, hostel and chalet at this level. The only debate for myself would be is at to whether it should be tourism=apartment or tourism=apartments. In many cases you will have a number of apartments for rent in a apartment building block but not necessarily all. In which case I presume it would be most appropriate to put a node in the building area rather than tagging the building area. Would you therefore need to put in a node for each apartment if it was tourism=apartment? Regards Dudley Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 14:21:44 +0200 From: dieterdre...@gmail.com To: tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ? 2013/10/18 Andrew Errington Surely it's simply a matter of tagging "There is accommodation of some kind here" and including a URL to the website? There is very little point in slicing the data so thinly, especially since renderers will paint a little picture that probably looks identical for any class of tourist accommodation. IMHO this isn't about "rendering", few people would look at a rendered map when looking for accomodation (usually you'd search in a db / with a query). We already have a system where we distinguish on the first level much more than "there is accomodation of some kind here", (IMHO that's good), so distinguishing an apartment from a hotel or a B&B / guest house or from a hostel does make sense - IMHO also at this very first level. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
I've also modified the "Tag:tourism=guest_house" wiki and moved the "tourism=bed_and_breakfast" to a subtag "guest_house=bed_and_breakfast": http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dguest_house Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
I made a proposal for tourism=apartment[1] so we have a place to refine the meaning of this tag. I think the difference between apartment and guest_house is not very clear, but I guess apartments are a bit bigger, often have kitchens, and there are less of them in an apartment house then there are rooms in a guest house. Guest_houses are a bit more like hotels. Another reason is that people already use tourism=apartment, because it's obviously a more natural word for people in several countries. Maybe a better way to describe them is with a subtag, tourism=guest_house + guest_house=apartment. [1]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Apartment ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
2013/10/18 Andrew Errington > Surely it's simply a matter of tagging "There is accommodation of some kind > here" and including a URL to the website? There is very little point in > slicing the data so thinly, especially since renderers will paint a little > picture that probably looks identical for any class of tourist > accommodation. > IMHO this isn't about "rendering", few people would look at a rendered map when looking for accomodation (usually you'd search in a db / with a query). We already have a system where we distinguish on the first level much more than "there is accomodation of some kind here", (IMHO that's good), so distinguishing an apartment from a hotel or a B&B / guest house or from a hostel does make sense - IMHO also at this very first level. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
Andrew, I like your idea about the XML file, it is definitely how it will have to go, the idea is at the heart of the "Semantic Web" which is slowly evolving. Of course it shouldn't be just for accommodation, in fact virtually every object that we tag currently should be pulling it's metadata from the "Operator". However, we are quite a way off that I feel, so in the mean time we do need to, at the very least, structure our tags correctly and decide on the broad brush strokes for describing various objects. The granularity of the data is down to each individual mapper. Jonathan http://bigfatfrog67.me On 18/10/2013 11:35, Andrew Errington wrote: On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 01:47:51 Dudley Ibbett wrote: From a tourists perspective it is quite important to know whether it is self catering accommodation or not. It is also important to know whether it is a single building unit (i.e. house,cottage,chalet) as opposed to a number of units in a building (i.e. apartments). I would be inclined to use tourism=apartments for the latter. Types of tourist accommodation do seem to be quite country specific. There are very few tourist apartments in the UK but they are very common in Croatia for example. I would agree that tourism=chalet would seem to be the most appropriate tag for a gîte. Surely it's simply a matter of tagging "There is accommodation of some kind here" and including a URL to the website? There is very little point in slicing the data so thinly, especially since renderers will paint a little picture that probably looks identical for any class of tourist accommodation. With a website URL, the OSM map user can hop over to the hotel's site and read all about the number of rooms and facilities. What I really think would be nice is to specify an osm.xml file that a business can put on its website. Inside OSM we would tag the place with a URL for that file, and we copy a small set of basic tags taken from that file, sufficient to render the object. Periodically we can automatically (or semi-automatically) refresh the tags with the content of the file. (If there is no file, or no URL we just tag manually as we do now). Then at runtime, whenever someone seems interested in the place the mapping app uses the URL to fetch the contents of the XML to display to the user. The advantage of this is that it distributes the data, and allows the site owner to maintain the details without filling OSM up with useless cruft. The XML file could even be dynamic and contain current vacancies, prices, upcoming closures (for renovation) etc. Best wishes, Andrew ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 01:47:51 Dudley Ibbett wrote: > From a tourists perspective it is quite important to know whether it is > self catering accommodation or not. It is also important to know whether > it is a single building unit (i.e. house,cottage,chalet) as opposed to a > number of units in a building (i.e. apartments). I would be inclined to > use tourism=apartments for the latter. Types of tourist accommodation do > seem to be quite country specific. There are very few tourist apartments > in the UK but they are very common in Croatia for example. I would agree > that tourism=chalet would seem to be the most appropriate tag for a gîte. Surely it's simply a matter of tagging "There is accommodation of some kind here" and including a URL to the website? There is very little point in slicing the data so thinly, especially since renderers will paint a little picture that probably looks identical for any class of tourist accommodation. With a website URL, the OSM map user can hop over to the hotel's site and read all about the number of rooms and facilities. What I really think would be nice is to specify an osm.xml file that a business can put on its website. Inside OSM we would tag the place with a URL for that file, and we copy a small set of basic tags taken from that file, sufficient to render the object. Periodically we can automatically (or semi-automatically) refresh the tags with the content of the file. (If there is no file, or no URL we just tag manually as we do now). Then at runtime, whenever someone seems interested in the place the mapping app uses the URL to fetch the contents of the XML to display to the user. The advantage of this is that it distributes the data, and allows the site owner to maintain the details without filling OSM up with useless cruft. The XML file could even be dynamic and contain current vacancies, prices, upcoming closures (for renovation) etc. Best wishes, Andrew ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
2013/10/17 Dudley Ibbett > From a tourists perspective it is quite important to know whether it is > self catering accommodation or not. It is also important to know whether > it is a single building unit (i.e. house,cottage,chalet) as opposed to a > number of units in a building (i.e. apartments). I would be inclined to > use tourism=apartments for the latter. +1, an appartment would have a kitchen, while a guest house wouldn't (often) have a kitchen at disposition for the tourist, nor would a bed and breakfast typically. I also agree with the distinction chalet/cottage/hut and apartment. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
>From a tourists perspective it is quite important to know whether it is self >catering accommodation or not. It is also important to know whether it is a >single building unit (i.e. house,cottage,chalet) as opposed to a number of >units in a building (i.e. apartments). I would be inclined to use >tourism=apartments for the latter. Types of tourist accommodation do seem to >be quite country specific. There are very few tourist apartments in the UK >but they are very common in Croatia for example. I would agree that >tourism=chalet would seem to be the most appropriate tag for a gîte. Dudley > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 12:51:10 +0100 > From: craig...@fastmail.fm > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ? > > On 2013-10-17 09:52, Pieren wrote: > > Could someone explain the difference between "tourism=guest_house" and > > "tourism=bed_and_breakfast" ? > > Both are suggested here: > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dguest_house > > but only "guest_house" is really documented in the wiki. > > > > In taginfo, we find 527 "tourism=bed_and_breakfast" and 32382 > > "tourism=guest_house" (accidentally, taginfo says "Guest house and > > Bed&Breakfast for "tourism=guest_house") > > In UK terms, they are much the same thing. Some places refer to > themselves as B&Bs, some as guest houses, sometimes both. > Usually a B&B would be smaller, ie one or two rooms, with the owner also > living in the house, and doing most of the work. Whereas a guesthouse > may be bigger, more like a hotel, and more staff etc. But I have seen > plenty of small places calling themselves guesthouses. I don't think > there is any legal distinction. > > So it makes sense to tag both as tourism=guest_house. Plus tag the > number of rooms/beds to indicate how big it is. > > > I'm asking because in France we do have a diffence when guests are in > > an independent building (gîte [1]), usually for at least a week or a > > week-end, or just special bedrooms (bed&breakfast) as "guests" in > > private homes. So, I'm looking if we could reuse the two existing tags > > or if I should create a sub-tag like "tourism=guest_house" + > > "guest_house=bed_and_breakfast" or > > "guest_house=whatever_in_an_independent_building" > > If its a separate building (with self-catering), I wouldn't call it a > guest house. That's more like tourism=chalet. > Though maybe a more generic term for holiday chalets/cottages/apartments > etc would be good. And some way of distinguishing a single holiday house > to rent, from a larger 'holiday park'. > > Craig > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
On 2013-10-17 09:52, Pieren wrote: Could someone explain the difference between "tourism=guest_house" and "tourism=bed_and_breakfast" ? Both are suggested here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dguest_house but only "guest_house" is really documented in the wiki. In taginfo, we find 527 "tourism=bed_and_breakfast" and 32382 "tourism=guest_house" (accidentally, taginfo says "Guest house and Bed&Breakfast for "tourism=guest_house") In UK terms, they are much the same thing. Some places refer to themselves as B&Bs, some as guest houses, sometimes both. Usually a B&B would be smaller, ie one or two rooms, with the owner also living in the house, and doing most of the work. Whereas a guesthouse may be bigger, more like a hotel, and more staff etc. But I have seen plenty of small places calling themselves guesthouses. I don't think there is any legal distinction. So it makes sense to tag both as tourism=guest_house. Plus tag the number of rooms/beds to indicate how big it is. I'm asking because in France we do have a diffence when guests are in an independent building (gîte [1]), usually for at least a week or a week-end, or just special bedrooms (bed&breakfast) as "guests" in private homes. So, I'm looking if we could reuse the two existing tags or if I should create a sub-tag like "tourism=guest_house" + "guest_house=bed_and_breakfast" or "guest_house=whatever_in_an_independent_building" If its a separate building (with self-catering), I wouldn't call it a guest house. That's more like tourism=chalet. Though maybe a more generic term for holiday chalets/cottages/apartments etc would be good. And some way of distinguishing a single holiday house to rent, from a larger 'holiday park'. Craig ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
I have come across tourism=apartments, there are 125 of them right now. Are those actually badly tagged tourism=guest_house? I think there's no real difference between them and guest houses. I like the sub-tags. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
2013/10/17 Martin Vonwald : > Hi! > > 2013/10/17 Pieren >> >> So, I'm looking if we could reuse the two existing tags >> or if I should create a sub-tag like "tourism=guest_house" + >> "guest_house=bed_and_breakfast" or >> "guest_house=whatever_in_an_independent_building" > > > +1 for the sub-tags. Sounds fine to me. My understanding is that tourism=bed_and_breakfast has been used here and there, but then a mild consensus emerged just to use tourism=guest_house, and the wiki reflects that (i.e. it doesn't "suggest" tourism=bed_and_breakfast but there are some small mentions of it remaining). Sub-tags might turn out to be useful, don't seem harmful... Dan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
2013/10/17 Pieren > Could someone explain the difference between "tourism=guest_house" and > "tourism=bed_and_breakfast" ? > Both are suggested here: > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dguest_house > but only "guest_house" is really documented in the wiki. > > In taginfo, we find 527 "tourism=bed_and_breakfast" and 32382 > "tourism=guest_house" (accidentally, taginfo says "Guest house and > Bed&Breakfast for "tourism=guest_house") > > I'm asking because in France we do have a diffence when guests are in > an independent building (gîte [1]), usually for at least a week or a > week-end, or just special bedrooms (bed&breakfast) as "guests" in > private homes. So, I'm looking if we could reuse the two existing tags > or if I should create a sub-tag like "tourism=guest_house" + > "guest_house=bed_and_breakfast" or > "guest_house=whatever_in_an_independent_building" > We discussed once on #osm-talk when I asked more or less the same question... The distinction between b&b and guest house is related to the law in your country, generally b&b need to have max x rooms for guests, otherwise they are guest houses (I try to use guest_house now also when the name is "Bed & Breakfast Mickey Mouse" but the legal status defines it as guest_house) > > Pieren > > Regards, Stefano > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%AEte > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
Hi! 2013/10/17 Pieren > So, I'm looking if we could reuse the two existing tags > or if I should create a sub-tag like "tourism=guest_house" + > "guest_house=bed_and_breakfast" or > "guest_house=whatever_in_an_independent_building" > +1 for the sub-tags. br, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] tourism=guest_house or tourism=bed_and_breakfast ?
Could someone explain the difference between "tourism=guest_house" and "tourism=bed_and_breakfast" ? Both are suggested here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dguest_house but only "guest_house" is really documented in the wiki. In taginfo, we find 527 "tourism=bed_and_breakfast" and 32382 "tourism=guest_house" (accidentally, taginfo says "Guest house and Bed&Breakfast for "tourism=guest_house") I'm asking because in France we do have a diffence when guests are in an independent building (gîte [1]), usually for at least a week or a week-end, or just special bedrooms (bed&breakfast) as "guests" in private homes. So, I'm looking if we could reuse the two existing tags or if I should create a sub-tag like "tourism=guest_house" + "guest_house=bed_and_breakfast" or "guest_house=whatever_in_an_independent_building" Pieren [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%AEte ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
