Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-03-08 12:06 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :

> They are official dealers, and sell both used and new cars of all those
> makes. Drool for yourself... http://www.louwmanexclusive.com/
>
> Anyway the point is that. despite the Belgian situation that Marc
> describes, examples where multiple brands are sold from the same showroom.
>

Actually it doesn't look as if they sell new cars, at least I couldn't find
them (but haven't looked too long). Even if by the pictures they seem new,
there is always something like "2014 model", "only 6000 km" or similar if
you look at the details. They also don't seem to be official dealers, I had
a quick look at Bentley's search and they list them only as official
service place but not as dealer:
http://www.bentleymotors.com/en/apps/dealer-locator.html/search/utrecht/type-sales

Now I don't know how important the "official" part is for OSM, maybe this
could be discussed (I am not completely opposing the idea to add any type
of dealer that sells cars by that brand, because if you need an official
list you can already get this from the manufacturer).

I agree that there might be dealers selling different brands from the same
showroom, even if I haven't encountered it yet (besides those from the same
"mother", e.g. Bentley and Bugatti at a Volkswagen / Audi dealer, Rolls
Royce and Mini at a BMW, Jaguar and Land Rover at a Tata, etc.).

I would handle it like this: if there are specific brands, tag it like
this, if there aren't, don't.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Colin Smale]

They are official dealers, and sell both used and new cars of all those
makes. Drool for yourself... http://www.louwmanexclusive.com/ 

Anyway the point is that. despite the Belgian situation that Marc
describes, examples where multiple brands are sold from the same
showroom. We cannot deny that it exists, so we need to handle it
(gracefully) in OSM, or explicitly exclude it from OSM. 

//colin 

On 2016-03-08 11:15, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> 2016-03-07 13:27 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :
> 
>> Have to? Is there some law or regulation in Belgium? Or is it a choice of 
>> the brands themselves?
> 
> it is the brands that impose this.
> 
>> My BMW dealer (in NL) also does Mini, from the same building, at the same 
>> desk (for maintenance anyway).
> 
> because they are the same, it's different names (or brands if you wish) for 
> the same car producer / company (BMW).
> 
>> Next door is a dealer for Rolls-Royce, TVR, McClaren, Lexus, Lamborghini and 
>> others all in one building.
> 
> Rolls-Royce is also BWM, Lexus is Toyota though, Lamborghini is VW/Audi. TVR 
> is an independent manufacturer. Not sure why these are all mixed, maybe 
> that's not an official dealer (do they also sell new cars, or only used 
> ones?).
> 
> Cheers, 
> Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-03-07 13:27 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :

> Have to? Is there some law or regulation in Belgium? Or is it a choice of
> the brands themselves?



it is the brands that impose this.



> My BMW dealer (in NL) also does Mini, from the same building, at the same
> desk (for maintenance anyway).



because they are the same, it's different names (or brands if you wish) for
the same car producer / company (BMW).



> Next door is a dealer for Rolls-Royce, TVR, McClaren, Lexus, Lamborghini
> and others all in one building.



Rolls-Royce is also BWM, Lexus is Toyota though, Lamborghini is VW/Audi.
TVR is an independent manufacturer. Not sure why these are all mixed, maybe
that's not an official dealer (do they also sell new cars, or only used
ones?).

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Marc Gemis]

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> So maybe we should not use brand=* on the "shop" itself, but something like
> product:car:brands=BMW;Mini to refer to the products, NOT to the external
> appearance of the shop. After all, we are not listing the individual
> products (there would be thousands), but

Warin's original proposal was

sells:car:BMW=yes
sells:car:Mini=yes

This got objection because it introduced values in the key.

Your proposal "product:car:brands" solves that problem, but uses
semi-colons, something that got objection recently in another thread
because AFAIK of parsing problems (no escape character) and
limitations on the field length.

Now someone can propose something like

product:car:brand_1 can get objections for that as well.

IMHO we need a way to specify brands for a limited number of products,
since some shops are characterised by the brands they sells. This is
not the case for supermarkets, bakeries, ... (I think).
The Apple Store, and car (or vehicles in general) dealers are  well
known examples, but there might be other type of shops. I think
fashion stores can be associated with a limited number of brands as
well.

But we cannot solve this unless we have a framework that allows us to
specify multi-valued keys.

Perhaps we should continue discussion you MV-proposal first before we
discuss this particular case ? Or we could use this one as an example
for the more general discussion ?

m

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Warin]

On 8/03/2016 10:25 AM, Michael Reichert wrote:

Hi,

Am 07.03.2016 um 08:56 schrieb Frederik Ramm:

It is possible that some supermarkets would make their list of products
available electronically and thus provide an incentive for a clever
hacker to simply convert that to OSM. Once we say we accept a list of
products for a supermarket, few would make the distinction of "surveyed
list = ok, imported list = not ok"...

Such an automatic import would practically be the only way to keep a
list of products current.

[…]

Thankfully, this is hypothetical because we won't do it. OSM is a geo
database and not a sales directory.

I agree with Frederik.

If shop chains like Lidl wanted to provide their list of products in an
automatically readable file format, they would provide an API url per
shop. This API url might be the only part of a product list I would
accept at OSM.

Example:

shop = supermarket
name = Lidl
opening_hours = Mo-Sa 08:00-21:00; PH off
addr:city = Karlsruhe
addr:street = Europaplatz
product_list_url = http://www.lidl.com/api/products/karlsruhe/europaplatz

App developers can use this url to create the link between OSM and Lidl API.

If the comapaies don't want to publish it, such data should be collected
as part of an additional crowdsourcing project. Linking between OSM
object and this OpenProductsDB could be done using postal addresses,
coordinates or shop numbers (sometimes printed on bills).

Best regards

Michael



That could work for large chain stores.

Would you have an independent general store in a remote area do this?

What 'solution' do you have for mappers who want to add detail to such a shop?

They are entering it now.

e.g. of a remote independent store  
https://www.exploroz.com/Places/3365/NT/Docker_River_Kaltukatjara.aspx

Nearest other store is some 200 km away.

What would you think this general store might stock?
flour ... in 10kg packs?
bread .. frozen
bicycle tubes .. 26"?
fruit ... 'fresh', tinned?
vegetables
kangaroo tails .. frozen
etc ...

Rejection of a proposal because 'some' don't want it in the data base will not, 
can not prevent the entry of the information in the data base.

It may not be entered using the proposed tags, or any sensible , coordinated 
tags. but it will go in 'like' it or not.

I think it would be better to have some suggestion as to how to enter it rather 
than nothing.


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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,

Am 07.03.2016 um 08:56 schrieb Frederik Ramm:
> It is possible that some supermarkets would make their list of products
> available electronically and thus provide an incentive for a clever
> hacker to simply convert that to OSM. Once we say we accept a list of
> products for a supermarket, few would make the distinction of "surveyed
> list = ok, imported list = not ok"...
> 
> Such an automatic import would practically be the only way to keep a
> list of products current.
> 
> […]
> 
> Thankfully, this is hypothetical because we won't do it. OSM is a geo
> database and not a sales directory.

I agree with Frederik.

If shop chains like Lidl wanted to provide their list of products in an
automatically readable file format, they would provide an API url per
shop. This API url might be the only part of a product list I would
accept at OSM.

Example:

shop = supermarket
name = Lidl
opening_hours = Mo-Sa 08:00-21:00; PH off
addr:city = Karlsruhe
addr:street = Europaplatz
product_list_url = http://www.lidl.com/api/products/karlsruhe/europaplatz

App developers can use this url to create the link between OSM and Lidl API.

If the comapaies don't want to publish it, such data should be collected
as part of an additional crowdsourcing project. Linking between OSM
object and this OpenProductsDB could be done using postal addresses,
coordinates or shop numbers (sometimes printed on bills).

Best regards

Michael


-- 
Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
ausgenommen)
I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)




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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Colin Smale]

Marc, 

You assert that it doesn't exist in Belgium. It most definitely does
exist elsewhere though; repeating your assertion is not going to get
closer to a conclusion. In fact, as it exists for caravans, campers and
bicycles, it would be advantageous to have a uniform tagging model for
all these cases. 

Frederik says (as I interpret it) that having multiple brands on a shop
defeats the purpose of branding. I tend to agree with this, if there are
many such brands. It is then no longer the branding of the shop, but of
the products which are available in the shop. 

So maybe we should not use brand=* on the "shop" itself, but something
like product:car:brands=BMW;Mini to refer to the products, NOT to the
external appearance of the shop. After all, we are not listing the
individual products (there would be thousands), but a very limited
number of makes - maybe two or three, which have a distinctive presence
and a characteristic relationship with the "shop". 

Of course, everyone is free to say "there is no point", or "this doesn't
belong in OSM". But that would be at a different philosophical level to
discussing the best way of tagging it.

--colin 

On 2016-03-07 20:29, Marc Gemis wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Colin Smale  wrote: 
> 
>> Even if this happens in Belgium, it is clear that we have to accommodate
>> multi-brand dealerships in our tagging scheme because it most definitely
>> does occur elsewhere.
> 
> From what I understood from Frederik's mail, he would not map those
> multi-brand dealerships.
> Those dealerships already exists for caravans, campers, bicycles (also
> in Belgium :-) )
> 
> AFAIK there is only one company fighting this practice of single brand
> dealerships, but they offer only recent second hands and cars  they
> get via the so-called "parallel import"
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Marc Gemis]

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> Even if this happens in Belgium, it is clear that we have to accommodate
> multi-brand dealerships in our tagging scheme because it most definitely
> does occur elsewhere.

From what I understood from Frederik's mail, he would not map those
multi-brand dealerships.
Those dealerships already exists for caravans, campers, bicycles (also
in Belgium :-) )

AFAIK there is only one company fighting this practice of single brand
dealerships, but they offer only recent second hands and cars  they
get via the so-called "parallel import"

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Colin Smale]

Even if this happens in Belgium, it is clear that we have to accommodate
multi-brand dealerships in our tagging scheme because it most definitely
does occur elsewhere. 

I may be wrong, but I thought that the sort of dealership restrictions
you mention were illegal these days, unless it can be objectively
justified. 

//colin

On 2016-03-07 16:24, Marc Gemis wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Colin Smale  wrote: 
> 
>> Have to? Is there some law or regulation in Belgium?
> 
> I think it's required by BMW and VW/Audi. (or the company that does
> the imports for the brand into Belgium).
> I believe they even can't sell BMW motorcycles from the same buildings
> as they sell cars.
> If they don't do it, they loose their license as a dealer.
> 
> I don't remember the exact details, but I had a family member working
> for a BMW dealer and a friend of mine is still working for a VW/Audi
> dealer.
> 
> m.
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Marc Gemis]

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> Have to? Is there some law or regulation in Belgium?

I think it's required by BMW and VW/Audi. (or the company that does
the imports for the brand into Belgium).
I believe they even can't sell BMW motorcycles from the same buildings
as they sell cars.
If they don't do it, they loose their license as a dealer.

I don't remember the exact details, but I had a family member working
for a BMW dealer and a friend of mine is still working for a VW/Audi
dealer.


m.

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Marc Zoutendijk]

> Op 7 mrt. 2016, om 08:56 heeft Frederik Ramm  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Thankfully, this is hypothetical because we won't do it. OSM is a geo
> database and not a sales directory.

+1

That’s exactly how I see it. 
Never, ever would OSM be able to support such a sales directory in a reliable 
manner, resulting in few people using it because you never can be sure if OSM 
is missing some important data about the yamaha motor-cycle seller next door to 
you.

I developed http://openpoimap.org  to help me in 
locating POI, but everytime I use it, it only tells me that the number of 
missing shops is far greater than the shops that *are* on the map. 
But the same is not true for roads, rivers, landuse, buildings or other geo 
features. At least not in the countries I regurlay visit (in person or 
“virtual”).

I wouldn’t object against the “sells” tag, but I’m not going to use it.

Marc.



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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Colin Smale]

Have to? Is there some law or regulation in Belgium? Or is it a choice
of the brands themselves? My BMW dealer (in NL) also does Mini, from the
same building, at the same desk (for maintenance anyway). Next door is a
dealer for Rolls-Royce, TVR, McClaren, Lexus, Lamborghini and others all
in one building.

//colin 

On 2016-03-07 12:57, Marc Gemis wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Colin Smale  wrote: 
> 
>> Putting brand=X on a shop would indicate the branding of the shop, not
>> necessarily the brands which are sold within. These days (certainly in the
>> 4-wheeled world) we are seeing less single-branded shops/showrooms and more
>> independent multi-brand outlets.
> 
> not in Belgium, even for brands such as VW-Audi or BMW-Mini, the
> dealers have to have different buildings, with their own reception
> desk.
> 
> regards
> 
> m
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Marc Gemis]

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> Putting brand=X on a shop would indicate the branding of the shop, not
> necessarily the brands which are sold within. These days (certainly in the
> 4-wheeled world) we are seeing less single-branded shops/showrooms and more
> independent multi-brand outlets.

not in Belgium, even for brands such as VW-Audi or BMW-Mini, the
dealers have to have different buildings, with their own reception
desk.

regards

m

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Colin Smale]

On 2016-03-07 12:11, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> 2016-03-07 7:50 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> 
>> For example at present  a mapper adding tags to a sewing shop that sells 
>> sewing machines can have
>> 
>> paff=yes... that makes no sense unless you know Paff make sewing 
>> machines.
>> 
>> gutenberg=yes ... makes no sense unless you know they make thread... but it 
>> is also a project for copyright free books ...
>> 
>> husqvarna=yes ... makes both motorcycles and sewing machines ... does this 
>> mean both are sold here?
> 
> this kind of tag is quite bad I think, because it doesn't convey a meaning in 
> a semantic sense. They don't say what "pfaff=yes" means, and there can easily 
> be cases of ambiguity because they are too short / universal in meaning. 
> Better use brand=Pfaff so you know at least that "Pfaff" is a brand (even if 
> you don't know them) and not a means of transport, an access restriction or a 
> shop type, or whatever.
> 
> You have asked about the property "sells=motorcycle;yamaha" on a 
> shop=motorcycle. My stance is that this would better be tagged as 
> "brand=Yamaha". "sells=motorcycle;yamaha" doesn't make much sense to me (they 
> sell motorcycles and yamahas?). I would only use this in case it is an 
> authorized dealer (or in other words: you can see from the outside that this 
> is a Yamaha shop, it has a sign written "Yamaha" on it, people can use this 
> information to recognize the shop, etc.).

Putting brand=X on a shop would indicate the branding of the shop, not
necessarily the brands which are sold within. These days (certainly in
the 4-wheeled world) we are seeing less single-branded shops/showrooms
and more independent multi-brand outlets. The tagging of makes of bike
on a shop therefore needs to be multi-value-capable. How about
products:motorcycle:yamaha=sales;maintenance;spares ? 

> Cheers,
> Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-03-07 7:50 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> For example at present  a mapper adding tags to a sewing shop that sells
> sewing machines can have
>
> paff=yes... that makes no sense unless you know Paff make sewing
> machines.
>
> gutenberg=yes ... makes no sense unless you know they make thread... but
> it is also a project for copyright free books ...
>
> husqvarna=yes ... makes both motorcycles and sewing machines ... does this
> mean both are sold here?
>
>

this kind of tag is quite bad I think, because it doesn't convey a meaning
in a semantic sense. They don't say what "pfaff=yes" means, and there can
easily be cases of ambiguity because they are too short / universal in
meaning. Better use brand=Pfaff so you know at least that "Pfaff" is a
brand (even if you don't know them) and not a means of transport, an access
restriction or a shop type, or whatever.

You have asked about the property "sells=motorcycle;yamaha" on a
shop=motorcycle. My stance is that this would better be tagged as
"brand=Yamaha". "sells=motorcycle;yamaha" doesn't make much sense to me
(they sell motorcycles and yamahas?). I would only use this in case it is
an authorized dealer (or in other words: you can see from the outside that
this is a Yamaha shop, it has a sign written "Yamaha" on it, people can use
this information to recognize the shop, etc.).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Warin]

On 7/03/2016 8:25 PM, Colin Smale wrote:


How about limiting the list to product categories, according to an 
agreed taxonomy? Particularly categories which help to distinguish one 
shop from another. For example supermarkets might be expected to sell 
frozen food, but occasionally they might not. So frozen food would be 
a candidate for a product category. Some sell electrical goods, but 
not all of them. Another candidate for a category I think.


The category level has to be high enough that it will be stable and 
not change frequently, but low enough that it has some value in 
deciding whether a shop is worth visiting.


Striking this balance is something we are not always good at, as the 
discussion easily gets polarised and the outcome (if there is a clear 
outcome) is often a design-by-committee Frankenstein's monster of a 
tagging scheme... There has been a proposal in the last few days to 
redesign our highway tagging. Clearly this is not going to make it 
(because we have already a very well-established tagging scheme for 
this), but it does illustrate that a somewhat scientific approach to 
these tagging taxonomies, including some objective criteria to 
classify against, may have great value in the future. So in the 
context of shops, there must be an existing taxonomy somewhere that we 
could leverage. Possibly within the business itself (how do 
Tesco/Walmart classify their shops? What attributes do they store?) or 
industry organisations or statistical bodies (anything they provide 
statistics on, like "how many shops sell childrens clothes?" is a hint 
for a product category).




Well the military have been at it longer than Tesco/Walmart  the 
first level is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_Supply_Classification_Groups
Of course they go down to individual items .. even identifying where it 
was made, "You can have that screw ... from Denmark or UK, Sir?".  But 
the first level maybe sufficient?  There are a lot of them ... some can 
be ignored ... not much call for space vehicles nor guided weapons yet?
I do think there are too many ... and at least at present I would think 
most won't get used.
Frozen food does not get mentioned .. if you remove the word 'frozen' 
then you are fine... Outback shops in Australia sell bread ... always 
frozen as it takes too long to transport it 'fresh'. So food types first 
...


The branding thing... If you have a TREK bicycle with a frame failure 
then you need a Trek dealer to make the lifetime claim on the damaged 
frame. So I do think that has a role to play somewhere, if not under 
'sells' then where?


I would suggest that a category-based tagging scheme would be 
"OSM-Core" but of course anyone can extend this scheme to include 
lower-level data such as individual products as required, while 
staying within the core category scheme (i.e. not duplicating it or 
competing with it).


//colin

On 2016-03-07 09:45, Warin wrote:


On 7/03/2016 6:56 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 03/07/2016 07:54 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

Just imagine what would happen if
someone took it upon them to actually list all the products sold at a
supermarket. And update that once a week.

I see no problem with that except that anybody would quickly give up and
overall waste time.

It is possible that some supermarkets would make their list of products
available electronically and thus provide an incentive for a clever
hacker to simply convert that to OSM. Once we say we accept a list of
products for a supermarket, few would make the distinction of "surveyed
list = ok, imported list = not ok"...

Such an automatic import would practically be the only way to keep a
list of products current.


But I see no significant negative effects extending to other people
(shop element would be hard to edit for some time until somebody would
remove outdated data would be the largest problem what is not really
significant).

A typical grocery store would carry about 30.000 different products.
Even assuming it would be possible to encode each in a 15-character
string, the "sells" tag would half a megabyte long - for each store. And
update once a week. If this were done for many stores, the impact on the
size of the planet file, the daily diffs, or even the small download you
make to edit an area, would be noticeable.


That is a good point.

How to do both? Have the detail without too much change/bandwidth?

Guide the use of the 'sells' tag that it should be used for items that are 
available and predicted to be available for the next year?

That may reduce frequent updates?

There could be default values that could cover the basics ... like pub sells 
beer?


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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Colin Smale]

How about limiting the list to product categories, according to an
agreed taxonomy? Particularly categories which help to distinguish one
shop from another. For example supermarkets might be expected to sell
frozen food, but occasionally they might not. So frozen food would be a
candidate for a product category. Some sell electrical goods, but not
all of them. Another candidate for a category I think. 

The category level has to be high enough that it will be stable and not
change frequently, but low enough that it has some value in deciding
whether a shop is worth visiting. 

Striking this balance is something we are not always good at, as the
discussion easily gets polarised and the outcome (if there is a clear
outcome) is often a design-by-committee Frankenstein's monster of a
tagging scheme... There has been a proposal in the last few days to
redesign our highway tagging. Clearly this is not going to make it
(because we have already a very well-established tagging scheme for
this), but it does illustrate that a somewhat scientific approach to
these tagging taxonomies, including some objective criteria to classify
against, may have great value in the future. So in the context of shops,
there must be an existing taxonomy somewhere that we could leverage.
Possibly within the business itself (how do Tesco/Walmart classify their
shops? What attributes do they store?) or industry organisations or
statistical bodies (anything they provide statistics on, like "how many
shops sell childrens clothes?" is a hint for a product category).

I would suggest that a category-based tagging scheme would be "OSM-Core"
but of course anyone can extend this scheme to include lower-level data
such as individual products as required, while staying within the core
category scheme (i.e. not duplicating it or competing with it). 

//colin 

On 2016-03-07 09:45, Warin wrote:

> On 7/03/2016 6:56 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi,
> 
> On 03/07/2016 07:54 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: Just imagine what would 
> happen if
> someone took it upon them to actually list all the products sold at a
> supermarket. And update that once a week. I see no problem with that except 
> that anybody would quickly give up and
> overall waste time.
 It is possible that some supermarkets would make their list of products
available electronically and thus provide an incentive for a clever
hacker to simply convert that to OSM. Once we say we accept a list of
products for a supermarket, few would make the distinction of "surveyed
list = ok, imported list = not ok"...

Such an automatic import would practically be the only way to keep a
list of products current.

> But I see no significant negative effects extending to other people
> (shop element would be hard to edit for some time until somebody would
> remove outdated data would be the largest problem what is not really
> significant).
 A typical grocery store would carry about 30.000 different products.
Even assuming it would be possible to encode each in a 15-character
string, the "sells" tag would half a megabyte long - for each store. And
update once a week. If this were done for many stores, the impact on the
size of the planet file, the daily diffs, or even the small download you
make to edit an area, would be noticeable. 
That is a good point.

How to do both? Have the detail without too much change/bandwidth?

Guide the use of the 'sells' tag that it should be used for items that
are available and predicted to be available for the next year?

That may reduce frequent updates?

There could be default values that could cover the basics ... like pub
sells beer?

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Warin]

On 7/03/2016 6:56 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 03/07/2016 07:54 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

Just imagine what would happen if
someone took it upon them to actually list all the products sold at a
supermarket. And update that once a week.

I see no problem with that except that anybody would quickly give up and
overall waste time.

It is possible that some supermarkets would make their list of products
available electronically and thus provide an incentive for a clever
hacker to simply convert that to OSM. Once we say we accept a list of
products for a supermarket, few would make the distinction of "surveyed
list = ok, imported list = not ok"...

Such an automatic import would practically be the only way to keep a
list of products current.


But I see no significant negative effects extending to other people
(shop element would be hard to edit for some time until somebody would
remove outdated data would be the largest problem what is not really
significant).

A typical grocery store would carry about 30.000 different products.
Even assuming it would be possible to encode each in a 15-character
string, the "sells" tag would half a megabyte long - for each store. And
update once a week. If this were done for many stores, the impact on the
size of the planet file, the daily diffs, or even the small download you
make to edit an area, would be noticeable.


That is a good point.

How to do both? Have the detail without too much change/bandwidth?

Guide the use of the 'sells' tag that it should be used for items that are 
available and predicted to be available for the next year?

That may reduce frequent updates?

There could be default values that could cover the basics ... like pub sells 
beer?


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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 03/07/2016 07:54 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>> Just imagine what would happen if
>> someone took it upon them to actually list all the products sold at a
>> supermarket. And update that once a week.

> I see no problem with that except that anybody would quickly give up and
> overall waste time.

It is possible that some supermarkets would make their list of products
available electronically and thus provide an incentive for a clever
hacker to simply convert that to OSM. Once we say we accept a list of
products for a supermarket, few would make the distinction of "surveyed
list = ok, imported list = not ok"...

Such an automatic import would practically be the only way to keep a
list of products current.

> But I see no significant negative effects extending to other people
> (shop element would be hard to edit for some time until somebody would
> remove outdated data would be the largest problem what is not really
> significant).

A typical grocery store would carry about 30.000 different products.
Even assuming it would be possible to encode each in a 15-character
string, the "sells" tag would half a megabyte long - for each store. And
update once a week. If this were done for many stores, the impact on the
size of the planet file, the daily diffs, or even the small download you
make to edit an area, would be noticeable.

Thankfully, this is hypothetical because we won't do it. OSM is a geo
database and not a sales directory.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 02:39:52 +0100
Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Just imagine what would happen if
> someone took it upon them to actually list all the products sold at a
> supermarket. And update that once a week.

I see no problem with that except that anybody would quickly give up and
overall waste time.

But I see no significant negative effects extending to other people
(shop element would be hard to edit for some time until somebody would
remove outdated data would be the largest problem what is not really
significant).

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Marc Gemis]

Thanks Frederik, that makes sense to me.

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 7:46 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 03/07/2016 06:47 AM, Marc Gemis wrote:
>> Is e.g. brand for shop=car, amenity=fuel, amenity=bank acceptable ?
>
> The word "brand" has its root in the process of marking live animals
> with a glowing "branding iron" to identify their owner.
>
> I understand "brand" in OSM as a tag that we apply to an outlet when the
> "branding" is clearly visible from the outside; petrol stations of
> different brands will usually look distinctively different and will be
> distinguishable from far away.
>
> In my opinion, "brand" is *not* about what types of things are sold in a
> shop; a shop that sells Pepsi Cola as opposed to Coke will certainly not
> be tagged brand=Pepsi.
>
>> What for shop=caravan ? or shop=caravan;camper ? They typically sell
>> multiple brands,
>
> Brand is not what it sells or services but what it is "branded as";
> being branded as two different things at the same time would thoroughly
> defy the purpose of branding, both ancient and modern.
>
> This has nothing to do with my opposition to sells=*.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Warin]

On 7/03/2016 12:39 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 03/07/2016 12:11 AM, Warin wrote:

So you would prefer
sells=motorcycle;yamaha

I don't think that OSM is the right place to encode an ontology of
things. That there are different types of bread and different brands of
motorcycles, and that a "Yamaha" is a motorcycle while a "Hovis" is a
bread, is not something I expect do gather from OSM tags.


Not something you want in OSM?
How could someone travelling look for a motorcycle shop that sells Yamaha 
motorcycles?
People do get POI files with such information, it is something people want  
why not provide it in OSM?
There is a great deal in OSM that I don't need/want e.g.boat navigation aids. 
But I will not prevent others from entering and using that data.



Frankly, with OSM not being a business directory, I don't even think the
particulars about what a shop sells should be mapped, except perhaps in
some limited cases.


If it is not for you, don't map it.

Is there a way to stop others mapping them?  I don't think so.

My aim is to providing some reasonable way for the mapper to tag them,
at least better than the present each shop having individual uncoordinated tags 
that mean each shop type will have its own system,
its own method and its own key names and key values. All separate and different.


For example at present  a mapper adding tags to a sewing shop that sells sewing 
machines can have

paff=yes... that makes no sense unless you know Paff make sewing machines.

gutenberg=yes ... makes no sense unless you know they make thread... but it is 
also a project for copyright free books ...

husqvarna=yes ... makes both motorcycles and sewing machines ... does this mean 
both are sold here?

sewing_machines=yes ... OK, but I want a Paff...


Just imagine what would happen if someone took it
upon them to actually list all the products sold at a supermarket. And
update that once a week.


There is nothing stopping them doing that now, they can make up what ever 
tagging system they want and use it.

They would have a lot of work to do. Fine by me.


What is the 'problem'? Why the objection to so much detail... if someone is 
prepared to do it .. let them.
But let them use a common system that 'we' might recognise?


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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 03/07/2016 06:47 AM, Marc Gemis wrote:
> Is e.g. brand for shop=car, amenity=fuel, amenity=bank acceptable ?

The word "brand" has its root in the process of marking live animals
with a glowing "branding iron" to identify their owner.

I understand "brand" in OSM as a tag that we apply to an outlet when the
"branding" is clearly visible from the outside; petrol stations of
different brands will usually look distinctively different and will be
distinguishable from far away.

In my opinion, "brand" is *not* about what types of things are sold in a
shop; a shop that sells Pepsi Cola as opposed to Coke will certainly not
be tagged brand=Pepsi.

> What for shop=caravan ? or shop=caravan;camper ? They typically sell
> multiple brands, 

Brand is not what it sells or services but what it is "branded as";
being branded as two different things at the same time would thoroughly
defy the purpose of branding, both ancient and modern.

This has nothing to do with my opposition to sells=*.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Marc Gemis]

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 2:39 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Frankly, with OSM not being a business directory, I don't even think the
> particulars about what a shop sells should be mapped, except perhaps in
> some limited cases

Frederik, please list those cases, as I want to understand what you
see as acceptable for OSM.

Is e.g. brand for shop=car, amenity=fuel, amenity=bank acceptable ?
What for shop=caravan ? or shop=caravan;camper ? They typically sell
multiple brands, which might be different for caravans and campers.
They might even service other brands (of out-of-business manufacturers)

regards

m

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 03/07/2016 12:11 AM, Warin wrote:
> So you would prefer
> sells=motorcycle;yamaha

I don't think that OSM is the right place to encode an ontology of
things. That there are different types of bread and different brands of
motorcycles, and that a "Yamaha" is a motorcycle while a "Hovis" is a
bread, is not something I expect do gather from OSM tags.

Frankly, with OSM not being a business directory, I don't even think the
particulars about what a shop sells should be mapped, except perhaps in
some limited cases. Just imagine what would happen if someone took it
upon them to actually list all the products sold at a supermarket. And
update that once a week.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Warin]

On 7/03/2016 2:32 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


Am 06.03.2016 um 15:35 schrieb Simon Poole :

* for a small number of well defined and documented sub-keys it is not 
particular nice, but can be tolerated.


+1, I'd also like to see this as a generally rare exception and not as a good 
way to generally structure the information.

It's an attribute that could cover the availability of some interesting stuff 
that can occur in different context, e.g. stamps, public transport tickets, 
maybe also tobacco or beverages or alcohol, ice cream, batteries, etc.

cheers,
Martin


So you would prefer

sells=motorcycle;yamaha

sells=bread;hovis

sells=bread;brown

sells=bread;white

?

How then would you indicate that an expected (or default) thing that is not 
sold for one feature?

e.g.

amenity=pub

sells=no_beer   :-)

--

Note_1 There looks to be a need by nappers for additional tags like 
repairs/services/maintains too. See what 'sells' revels first.

Note_2 Editors should have a free text entry method to allow for things not 
covered by their 'presets'.

Note_3 I too see no need to go into great detail. These are extreme examples so 
as to demonstrate a method for those extremes.
Some want those, possibly to show faults with the method.

Note_4 Maintenance/verifiability. I have just marked a track as access=no.
It has been that way for a month or two. It maybe that way to December 2016 .. 
so says a sign. Will I remember to remove access=no at the end?
The more detail OSM has the worse the maintenance load will be.
That is no reason to exclude the information, those concerned will do the 
maintenance, weather it be for a motorway, a track or a shop.

Note_5 The shop key provides for any value .. not just "a small number of well 
defined and documented sub-keys".
I would think that editors and renders will do there usual thing and
not recognise those undocumented values (e.g. shops or sells values) untill 
they have reached some critical value of numbers/coverage/demand.
Though the recent JOSM presets for motorcycle shops shows a lack of regard to 
good tagging and reluctance to add undocumented values.


---
Upto date link for 'sells'

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sells
 



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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 06.03.2016 um 15:35 schrieb Simon Poole :
> 
> * for a small number of well defined and documented sub-keys it is not 
> particular nice, but can be tolerated.


+1, I'd also like to see this as a generally rare exception and not as a good 
way to generally structure the information.

It's an attribute that could cover the availability of some interesting stuff 
that can occur in different context, e.g. stamps, public transport tickets, 
maybe also tobacco or beverages or alcohol, ice cream, batteries, etc.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Bryan Housel]

`sells:bread:sourdough:loaf:hovis=yes`

It’s probably worth mentioning that we also can’t support a tagging scheme like 
this in iD presets.
We don’t have a UI for free tagging things that go in the key part of the tag.

(It’s the same problem with `seamark:` namespaced tags, which we also can’t 
support).


Would you consider just using semicolon separated values like 
`sells=thing1;thing2;thing3` ?
Thanks, Bryan




> On Mar 6, 2016, at 3:57 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> One problem I see at this moment, is that there is no convenient way
> to define JOSM presets for such a scheme. One needs a way to specify
> the key parts via a UI. That is not possible at this moment.
> Without presets, people will start putting the subkeys in al kind of
> different orders.
> 
> regards
> m

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Simon Poole]

It really really really really is not a good idea to pollute the key
name space with an indeterminate number of sub-keys* instead of placing
values in the, no surprise there, value part. it essentially guarantees
that nobody will ever evaluate any of the information and even if the
proposal would be accepted it wouldn't make any difference at all.

Simon

* for a small number of well defined and documented sub-keys it is not
particular nice, but can be tolerated.

Am 06.03.2016 um 02:01 schrieb Warin:
> I have created a draft for the tag 'sells'.
>
> This an attempt to subvert the present creation of other tag/s (by
> stealth) that, in my view, can be much better.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sells
>
> Comments here please.
> ---
>
>
> Proposal
>
> A tag to indicate what a shop sells with some detail.
>
>
> Rationale
>
> Presently people are add uncoordinated sub tags for each type of shop.
> The first thing that is being identified are the items sold by the shop.
>
> It would be better to have a sub tag that can be used under any shop
> type that uses the same system. It is also beneficial in that a
> 'general_store' can than use that same system, making searches easier?
>
> The word 'sells' is chosen to reflect the intended use without any
> confusion. The word 'sale' implies a single event over a limited time
> with reduced priced.
>
>
> Examples
>
> sells:motorcycle:yamaha=yes
>
> sells:motorcycle:honda=yes
>
>
> sells:bread:wholemeal=yes
>
> sells:bread:sourdough=yes
>
> sells:bread:tip_top=yes
>
>
> sells:cloths:children=yes
>
> This saves individual solution for each type of shop as is presently
> being propagated e.g.;
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:clothes
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtobacco
>
> and there are, as yet, undocumented but placed in JOSM presets, tags
> for motorcycles!
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[moltonel]

On 6 March 2016 08:47:36 GMT+00:00, Ralph Aytoun  
wrote:
>My personal opinion is that this is getting totally out of hand.
>Shops pay a lot of money to advertise their wares and you are stepping
>in 
>and trying to do commercial marketing for free.
>Not only that but who is going to maintain this information? Shops
>rotate 
>their stocks on a seasonal basis. They also stock multiple brands!
>
>So we will end up with tagging ...
>sells:bread:white:medium:Hovis=
>sells:bread:white:thick:Hovis=
>sells:bread:50-50:medium:Hovis=
>sells:bread:white:medium:Own_Brand=
>sells:bread:white:thick:Own_Brand=
>etc. etc. etc.
>
>With this kind of trend we are definitely moving away from the realms
>of 
>sustainable Mapping and creating some kind of stock take for each shop!
>And 
>some of us know that with regard to stock taking even the shops
>themselves 
>are hard pressed to maintain an up-to-date record. So where does that
>leave 
>us two weeks, two months or two years down the line?

I agree that this can get out of hand quickly and become unmaintainable. The 
detail level of some sells:* examples worry me.

But I can see its use for tagging oddities. You'd have the traditional tags 
implying what the place sells, and use the sells tag for exceptions, for 
example:
amenity=pub
sells:alcohol:wine=no
sells:books=yes


-- 
Vincent Dp

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 08:47:36 -
"Ralph Aytoun"  wrote:

> My personal opinion is that this is getting totally out of hand.
> Shops pay a lot of money to advertise their wares and you are
> stepping in and trying to do commercial marketing for free.

Nobody is forcing anybody to map what is sold. If somebody is
interested in maintaining this data I see no problem whatsoever (I map
bicycling infrastructure to high detail and mostly ignore shops - and I
see nothing wrong with somebody doing the opposite).

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Marc Gemis]

It depends on the kind of shops.

E.g vehicle related shops, typically have 1 or only a few brands. The
listof brands fixed for longer periods.
I think the same is true for some fashion outlets where you can only
find a collection from a limited number of brand.

I wouldn't start adding brands to all products you find in a
supermarket, garden centre, DIY etc.
But for those shops the categories of products can important, or at
least more important than the actual brands.

regards

m

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Ralph Aytoun <ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> My personal opinion is that this is getting totally out of hand.
> Shops pay a lot of money to advertise their wares and you are stepping in
> and trying to do commercial marketing for free.
> Not only that but who is going to maintain this information? Shops rotate
> their stocks on a seasonal basis. They also stock multiple brands!
>
> So we will end up with tagging ...
> sells:bread:white:medium:Hovis=
> sells:bread:white:thick:Hovis=
> sells:bread:50-50:medium:Hovis=
> sells:bread:white:medium:Own_Brand=
> sells:bread:white:thick:Own_Brand=
> etc. etc. etc.
>
> With this kind of trend we are definitely moving away from the realms of
> sustainable Mapping and creating some kind of stock take for each shop! And
> some of us know that with regard to stock taking even the shops themselves
> are hard pressed to maintain an up-to-date record. So where does that leave
> us two weeks, two months or two years down the line?
>
> If GIS professionals want to access this kind of detail for a study of shops
> in an area they would be totally nuts to use the Openstreetmap data for
> their study, for any kind of credibility they would have to do an up-to-date
> stock check of the shops in the study area before embarking on this kind of
> study. I would prefer if we concentrated on just identifying whether it is a
> clothing shop or a jewellery shop with a link to the shop's website for more
> up-to-date detailed information of what that shop is promoting rather than
> seeing time and effort spent on this kind of unsustainable detail.
>
> Just my humble opinion.
>
> -Original Message----- From: Warin
> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 7:52 AM
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..
>
>
> On 6/03/2016 5:58 PM, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>
>> I like this, but have a few question:
>>
>> - Do we always place brand at the end ?
>>
>> e.g. sells:cloths:children:Mói=yes
>> or sells:cloths:Mói:children=yes ?
>>
>> - Can we somehow define whether one should use
>>
>> sells:cloths:children vs. sells:children_cloths
>>
>> what I mean can we put forward some "rules"  or "guidelines" for
>> defining new subkeys ?.
>
>
> Guide line? Possible?
>
> From least to most specific.
>
> I think that should be the overall principle .. appears to be a principle
> inuse by OSM .. at least I think so?
>
> More specific?
>
> I would reject sells:children_cloths and accept sells:cloths:children as
> this is more universal method (applies to bread etc)?
>
> I would put the brand last - as that is more specific than the type (of
> clothing, bread etc).
>
>
>>
>> - Do we always need all subkeys ?
>>
>> e.g. sells:clothes:brandX:women=yes
>> sells:clothes:brandX:men=yes
>> sells:clothes:brandX:children=yes
>>
>> or sells:clothes:women:brandX, ...
>>
>> or is it in that case sufficient to write
>>
>> sells:clothes:brandX=yes
>
>
> I think the last would be sufficient, and should indicate that most, if not
> all, products made by that firm are for sale.
>
> But the first 3 would be very clear that at least those 3 types are sold
> (but tagging rearranged to brand last).
>
> At least for some tags OSM has two complimentary kinds of tagging in the
> data base.
>
>
> e.g. oneway=no compared to no tags for oneway. Both are taken as meaning the
> same thing. There are others, but I cannot think of them now.
>
>>
>> - how do we incorporate all the values for clothes in this ?
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:clothes
>
>
> 1:1 substitution for all values?
> cloths:women becomes sells:cloths:women ?
>
> Similar for
> shop=tabacco
> stamps=yes
>
> the tag stamps=yes becomes sells:stamp=yes Or better yet would be
> sells:stamps:revenue=yes
> and
> sells:stamps:postage=yes
>
> As both exist in various countries! And there could be more different kind
> of stamps?
>
> ! You see I have not gone far in my thinking ... but certainly further than
> others.
&

Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Marc Gemis]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This an attempt to subvert the present creation of other tag/s (by stealth)
> that, in my view, can be much better.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sells

One problem I see at this moment, is that there is no convenient way
to define JOSM presets for such a scheme. One needs a way to specify
the key parts via a UI. That is not possible at this moment.
Without presets, people will start putting the subkeys in al kind of
different orders.

regards

m

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Ralph Aytoun]

My personal opinion is that this is getting totally out of hand.
Shops pay a lot of money to advertise their wares and you are stepping in 
and trying to do commercial marketing for free.
Not only that but who is going to maintain this information? Shops rotate 
their stocks on a seasonal basis. They also stock multiple brands!


So we will end up with tagging ...
sells:bread:white:medium:Hovis=
sells:bread:white:thick:Hovis=
sells:bread:50-50:medium:Hovis=
sells:bread:white:medium:Own_Brand=
sells:bread:white:thick:Own_Brand=
etc. etc. etc.

With this kind of trend we are definitely moving away from the realms of 
sustainable Mapping and creating some kind of stock take for each shop! And 
some of us know that with regard to stock taking even the shops themselves 
are hard pressed to maintain an up-to-date record. So where does that leave 
us two weeks, two months or two years down the line?


If GIS professionals want to access this kind of detail for a study of shops 
in an area they would be totally nuts to use the Openstreetmap data for 
their study, for any kind of credibility they would have to do an up-to-date 
stock check of the shops in the study area before embarking on this kind of 
study. I would prefer if we concentrated on just identifying whether it is a 
clothing shop or a jewellery shop with a link to the shop's website for more 
up-to-date detailed information of what that shop is promoting rather than 
seeing time and effort spent on this kind of unsustainable detail.


Just my humble opinion.

-Original Message- 
From: Warin

Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 7:52 AM
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

On 6/03/2016 5:58 PM, Marc Gemis wrote:

I like this, but have a few question:

- Do we always place brand at the end ?

e.g. sells:cloths:children:Mói=yes
or sells:cloths:Mói:children=yes ?

- Can we somehow define whether one should use

sells:cloths:children vs. sells:children_cloths

what I mean can we put forward some "rules"  or "guidelines" for
defining new subkeys ?.


Guide line? Possible?

From least to most specific.

I think that should be the overall principle .. appears to be a principle 
inuse by OSM .. at least I think so?


More specific?

I would reject sells:children_cloths and accept sells:cloths:children as 
this is more universal method (applies to bread etc)?


I would put the brand last - as that is more specific than the type (of 
clothing, bread etc).





- Do we always need all subkeys ?

e.g. sells:clothes:brandX:women=yes
sells:clothes:brandX:men=yes
sells:clothes:brandX:children=yes

or sells:clothes:women:brandX, ...

or is it in that case sufficient to write

sells:clothes:brandX=yes


I think the last would be sufficient, and should indicate that most, if not 
all, products made by that firm are for sale.


But the first 3 would be very clear that at least those 3 types are sold 
(but tagging rearranged to brand last).


At least for some tags OSM has two complimentary kinds of tagging in the 
data base.



e.g. oneway=no compared to no tags for oneway. Both are taken as meaning the 
same thing. There are others, but I cannot think of them now.




- how do we incorporate all the values for clothes in this ?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:clothes


1:1 substitution for all values?
cloths:women becomes sells:cloths:women ?

Similar for
shop=tabacco
stamps=yes

the tag stamps=yes becomes sells:stamp=yes Or better yet would be
sells:stamps:revenue=yes
and
sells:stamps:postage=yes

As both exist in various countries! And there could be more different kind 
of stamps?


! You see I have not gone far in my thinking ... but certainly further than 
others.




I guess similar questions will pop up for other goods.

I hope the general principle will be accepted without too much
problems, but I expect quite some discussions on the subkeys.
(neverending discussions :-)  )


Yep. And there will be future 'problems'.



regards

m


Keep them coming!




On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

sells:motorcycle:yamaha=yes

sells:motorcycle:honda=yes


sells:bread:wholemeal=yes

sells:bread:sourdough=yes

sells:bread:tip_top=yes


sells:cloths:children=yes

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Warin]

I have made some alteration that should address this?
It might be more clear that it is a property key of something else .. like the 
height key.

Description:
description of items sold by a shop or some amenities.

Proposal:

An indication of what is sold by a shop or some amenities.


Tagging:

To be used as a property key of features that sell items e.g. shops.

etc...


On 6/03/2016 6:44 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


Am 06.03.2016 um 08:25 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :

I would prefer to explicitly note that it is supposed to be addition to
more general tag like shop=*/amenity=*. For example it is not OK to use
sells:beer instead of amenity=pub.


obviously, not every place selling beer is a pub. Not every place selling ice 
cream is a ice cream parlour, not every place selling tobacco is a tobacco 
shop, etc. But the opposite in these cases is likely true (every pub will sell 
beer, ...), so these cases wouldn't have to be tagged redundantly.
Cheers,
Martin


Default values can be assigned to various things .. like pubs ..

default sells:beer=yes

Even some country defaults like

Australian pub .. sells:cold:beer=yes ... present temperature here 27C.. and it 
is cooling down from around 29C.



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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Warin]

On 6/03/2016 5:58 PM, Marc Gemis wrote:

I like this, but have a few question:

- Do we always place brand at the end ?

e.g. sells:cloths:children:Mói=yes
or sells:cloths:Mói:children=yes ?

- Can we somehow define whether one should use

sells:cloths:children vs. sells:children_cloths

what I mean can we put forward some "rules"  or "guidelines" for
defining new subkeys ?.


Guide line? Possible?

From least to most specific.

I think that should be the overall principle .. appears to be a principle inuse 
by OSM .. at least I think so?

More specific?

I would reject sells:children_cloths and accept sells:cloths:children as this 
is more universal method (applies to bread etc)?

I would put the brand last - as that is more specific than the type (of 
clothing, bread etc).
 



- Do we always need all subkeys ?

e.g. sells:clothes:brandX:women=yes
sells:clothes:brandX:men=yes
sells:clothes:brandX:children=yes

or sells:clothes:women:brandX, ...

or is it in that case sufficient to write

sells:clothes:brandX=yes


I think the last would be sufficient, and should indicate that most, if not 
all, products made by that firm are for sale.

But the first 3 would be very clear that at least those 3 types are sold (but 
tagging rearranged to brand last).
 
At least for some tags OSM has two complimentary kinds of tagging in the data base.



e.g. oneway=no compared to no tags for oneway. Both are taken as meaning the 
same thing. There are others, but I cannot think of them now.



- how do we incorporate all the values for clothes in this ?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:clothes


1:1 substitution for all values?
cloths:women becomes sells:cloths:women ?

Similar for
shop=tabacco
stamps=yes

the tag stamps=yes becomes sells:stamp=yes Or better yet would be
sells:stamps:revenue=yes
and
sells:stamps:postage=yes

As both exist in various countries! And there could be more different kind of 
stamps?

! You see I have not gone far in my thinking ... but certainly further than 
others.



I guess similar questions will pop up for other goods.

I hope the general principle will be accepted without too much
problems, but I expect quite some discussions on the subkeys.
(neverending discussions :-)  )


Yep. And there will be future 'problems'.



regards

m


Keep them coming!




On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

sells:motorcycle:yamaha=yes

sells:motorcycle:honda=yes


sells:bread:wholemeal=yes

sells:bread:sourdough=yes

sells:bread:tip_top=yes


sells:cloths:children=yes

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 06.03.2016 um 08:25 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :
> 
> I would prefer to explicitly note that it is supposed to be addition to
> more general tag like shop=*/amenity=*. For example it is not OK to use
> sells:beer instead of amenity=pub.


obviously, not every place selling beer is a pub. Not every place selling ice 
cream is a ice cream parlour, not every place selling tobacco is a tobacco 
shop, etc. But the opposite in these cases is likely true (every pub will sell 
beer, ...), so these cases wouldn't have to be tagged redundantly.
Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:01:54 +1100
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have created a draft for the tag 'sells'.
> 
> This an attempt to subvert the present creation of other tag/s (by 
> stealth) that, in my view, can be much better.
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sells
> 
> Comments here please.

I would prefer to explicitly note that it is supposed to be addition to
more general tag like shop=*/amenity=*. For example it is not OK to use
sells:beer instead of amenity=pub.

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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

[Marc Gemis]

I like this, but have a few question:

- Do we always place brand at the end ?

e.g. sells:cloths:children:Mói=yes
or sells:cloths:Mói:children=yes ?

- Can we somehow define whether one should use

sells:cloths:children vs. sells:children_cloths

what I mean can we put forward some "rules"  or "guidelines" for
defining new subkeys ?

- Do we always need all subkeys ?

e.g. sells:clothes:brandX:women=yes
sells:clothes:brandX:men=yes
sells:clothes:brandX:children=yes

or sells:clothes:women:brandX, ...

or is it in that case sufficient to write

sells:clothes:brandX=yes

- how do we incorporate all the values for clothes in this ?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:clothes

I guess similar questions will pop up for other goods.

I hope the general principle will be accepted without too much
problems, but I expect quite some discussions on the subkeys.
(neverending discussions :-)  )

regards

m

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> sells:motorcycle:yamaha=yes
>
> sells:motorcycle:honda=yes
>
>
> sells:bread:wholemeal=yes
>
> sells:bread:sourdough=yes
>
> sells:bread:tip_top=yes
>
>
> sells:cloths:children=yes

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