Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Warin]

On 19/5/23 21:20, Marc_marc wrote:

Le 17.05.23 à 09:20, Warin a écrit :


On 16/5/23 19:08, Marc_marc wrote:
- some centres are not governmental (e.g. in Switzerland, mountain 
rescue is assigned to private companies such as Air Glacier)

office=association ?


it's a pretty poor content tag, it doesn't say anything more
than office=yes operator:type=ngo
especially it doesn't say what the activity of this place is,
while all the other values (except =yes =compagny) describe the activity

I only use this tag temporarily when the activity of an association
is not known to me or when I don't know the tag by memory in case of 
contribution by mobile application, which sometimes limits the 
accessibility to wiki or less common values)






office=government/ngo/association etc don't say what the activity is .. 
just the operator class. These values are 'in use' ... go ahead with a 
proposal to remove them. I'd vote for it.


Note 'associations' are not 'ngos' .. according to the OSM wiki IIRC. 
Me? I have not checked nor am I that interested.



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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Marc_marc]

Le 17.05.23 à 09:41, Warin a écrit :

in another email you state

"some centres are not governmental (e.g. in Switzerland, mountain rescue 
is assigned to private companies such as Air Glacier)"


So the tag may also be applicable to non government offices???


no, Air Glacier (among others) isn't a office=government



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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Marc_marc]

Le 17.05.23 à 09:20, Warin a écrit :


On 16/5/23 19:08, Marc_marc wrote:
- some centres are not governmental (e.g. in Switzerland, mountain 
rescue is assigned to private companies such as Air Glacier)

office=association ?


it's a pretty poor content tag, it doesn't say anything more
than office=yes operator:type=ngo
especially it doesn't say what the activity of this place is,
while all the other values (except =yes =compagny) describe the activity

I only use this tag temporarily when the activity of an association
is not known to me or when I don't know the tag by memory in case of 
contribution by mobile application, which sometimes limits the 
accessibility to wiki or less common values)






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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Warin]

On 18/5/23 07:48, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Tue, 16 May 2023 at 18:00, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

emergency=control_centre/administration ???

That was the plan!

emergency=control_centre for the place where disaster / emergency 
responses are controlled / co-ordinated from e.g. 
https://kedrontoday.com.au/sdcc-at-kedron-to-get-funding-boost-from-2022-23-fire-and-emergency-services-budget/ 
or https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/63985402 / 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Coastguard_radar_station,_Dover_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1417531.jpg


emergency=administration is the downtown office block where public 
servants sit & make decisions that affect the people who do the actual 
work, so that would also have the office=government + 
government=emergency tags included on it.


Which separates them both from the actual rescue / emergency stations 
which house equipment & the people that use it.



As marc_marc says .. emergency is a main key so it should not be used 
for a secondary key too.



Possibly I'm over thinking it.

Why not use an existing tag instead?

description=administration/999 call centre/control centre/*

It is unlikely that the third key would ever get rendered anyway.. 
particularly if it is only used for government emergency offices only.





So where I'm at

Example:


office=government

government=emergency

description=administration/999 call centre/control centre/*


Would that not do ‘the job’ ??


Still leaves the documentation to be done ..


Existing:

office=government

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Dgovernment

“The tag office = is 
used to tag government offices of a (supra)national, regional or local 
government agency or department. In these offices, staff work directly 
for the government and carry out tasks to administer facilities, operate 
registries and licensing bureaus, regulate lands and/or people, etc.


Examples include the ministry of foreign affairs, the tax office, or the 
local roadworks authority. “



government=emergency

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Agovernment%3Demergency


No real text, so suggested text???


“An office of the government that deals with planning, administration or 
other organizational details for an emergency or an emergency 
department. The office itself does not provide a physical response to an 
emergency.



Examples


A call centre for an emergency phone number such as 911/999/000/112.

The administration of a civil defence department.

A control centre for a wild fire response.

A control centre for an EPIRB/PLB response.


How to map


Create an area or node and tag it office=government and 
government=emergency.



Tags used in combination


Recommended: description=administration/999 call centre/fire control 
centre/*


name=* - the name of the feature if it has one

operator=* - establishes the department that provides the feature


If the office exists in combination with other features then map the 
other features as appropriate. e.g a fire station could be mapped as a 
node with the office also mapped as a separate node. This follows the 
OSM guide of ‘one feature, one OSM entry’.





See also


amenity=fire_station

emergency=ambulance_station

emergency=rescue_station

emergency=marine_rescue

emergency=mountain_rescue”


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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 16 May 2023 at 18:00, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> emergency=control_centre/administration ???
>
That was the plan!

emergency=control_centre for the place where disaster / emergency responses
are controlled / co-ordinated from e.g.
https://kedrontoday.com.au/sdcc-at-kedron-to-get-funding-boost-from-2022-23-fire-and-emergency-services-budget/
or https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/63985402 /
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Coastguard_radar_station,_Dover_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1417531.jpg

emergency=administration is the downtown office block where public servants
sit & make decisions that affect the people who do the actual work, so that
would also have the office=government + government=emergency tags included
on it.

Which separates them both from the actual rescue / emergency stations which
house equipment & the people that use it.

Thanks

Graeme


>
> I have thought about documenting a proposal for that but haven't got to it
>
>
> Too many things on the ' to do' list. Me too.
>
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 22:00, Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
>> > The places (stations etc) where the emergency response come from would
>> > not be an 'office'; "An office is a place of business where
>> > administrative or professional work is carried out. "  e.g. lawyers,
>> > accountants, records,
>>
>> In the US we have the concept of "Emergency Management Agency" which is
>> at least partly not something like firefighters/ambulance/police.  These
>> exist at federal, state, county and local levels.  They more or less does
>> three things:
>>
>>   planning and training for future emergencies.  Creation of "Local
>>   Emergency Plan" documents.  Coordinating that lots of people have
>>   taken a dizzying array of classes.  Perhaps hosting classes.
>>
>>   operating an Emergency Operations Center where command staff decide
>>   what various resources are going to do during an emergency.
>>
>>   has some staff who function more or less like firefighters in that
>>   they go to locations where emergency services are needed and do urban
>>   search and rescue, swift water rescue, damage assessment
>>
>>
>> The first one is definitely office=government government=emergency.  I
>> think the second one is too.
>>
>> A facility that houses equipment that personnel from the third case use
>> as a response base feels like emergency=ses_station.
>>
>> Sometimes there are facilities that do all three.  There is a federal
>> facility in New England that is at least both 2&3 and surely they must
>> do 1.
>>
>>
>> Overall I think I'm agreeing with Warin here - some functions of "Civil
>> Defense" (as it used to be called before that was politically incorrect)
>> are office functions, and some are conceptually similar to fire/rescue
>> departments.
>>
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Warin]

On 16/5/23 19:00, Marc_marc wrote:

Hello,

Le 15.05.23 à 09:13, Warin a écrit :

clear definition
Possibly something like

"Used to mark the office of an emergency organization,  where 
administration, planning and control is performed.


add government somewhere in the def :)
if not, the tag could be used for Red Cross office.




As it has office=government as the primary tag then government=emergency 
I'd think that further stating government would be redundant ... but it 
is OSM so a repeat for the third time may be necessary.


However in another email you state

"some centres are not governmental (e.g. in Switzerland, mountain rescue 
is assigned to private companies such as Air Glacier)"


So the tag may also be applicable to non government offices???


I did a quick look and someone has used it for a call centre - 
999/911/000/112 kind of thing. I think that is appropriate.




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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Warin]

On 16/5/23 19:08, Marc_marc wrote:

Hello,

Le 16.05.23 à 00:22, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :

suggestion of office=government + government=transportation
+ emergency=control_centre


- there are 2 main keys (office and emergency), inevitably some 
objects will have only one of the 2 and this will complicate things
- some centres are not governmental (e.g. in Switzerland, mountain 
rescue is assigned to private companies such as Air Glacier)

office=association ???


so I think it is useful to make a difference between
- the administrative services of the state in charge of
a given subject -> office=*
- the logistic base




I hesitate to offer government=disaster as some would think that an 
oxymoron. :)


Possibly there needs to be a key to describe the purpose of the office 
rather than the operator .. oh look office=* has both the purpose and 
the operator as values.. how OSM.


Possibly office:organization=* or office:purpose=* and then set office=* 
for the other thing..




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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Marc_marc]

Hello,

Le 16.05.23 à 00:22, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :

suggestion of office=government + government=transportation
+ emergency=control_centre


- there are 2 main keys (office and emergency), inevitably some objects 
will have only one of the 2 and this will complicate things
- some centres are not governmental (e.g. in Switzerland, mountain 
rescue is assigned to private companies such as Air Glacier)


so I think it is useful to make a difference between
- the administrative services of the state in charge of
a given subject -> office=*
- the logistic base

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Marc_marc]

Hello,

Le 15.05.23 à 09:13, Warin a écrit :

clear definition
Possibly something like

"Used to mark the office of an emergency organization,  
where administration, planning and control is performed.


add government somewhere in the def :)
if not, the tag could be used for Red Cross office.

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Warin]

On 16/5/23 08:22, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
During discussions on one of the proposals that finished up as 
emergency=water_rescue 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_talk:Emergency%3Dlifeboat_station#Use_on_Rescue-related_sites), 
there was suggestion of office=government + government=transportation 
+ emergency=control_centre for those establishments which control 
emergency operations, rather than house emergency workers 
e.g.https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/267835828


Don't 'like' the 'transportation' as there is no transportation function 
at these offices.


office=government

government=emergency


There is already an emergency key .. overloaded with values

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Emergency_facilities_and_amenities

I suppose a few more would not be out of the question?

emergency=control_centre/administration ???



I have thought about documenting a proposal for that but haven't got to it



Too many things on the ' to do' list. Me too.


Graeme


On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 22:00, Greg Troxel  wrote:

> The places (stations etc) where the emergency response come from
would
> not be an 'office'; "An office is a place of business where
> administrative or professional work is carried out. " e.g. lawyers,
> accountants, records,

In the US we have the concept of "Emergency Management Agency"
which is
at least partly not something like firefighters/ambulance/police. 
These
exist at federal, state, county and local levels.  They more or
less does
three things:

  planning and training for future emergencies.  Creation of "Local
  Emergency Plan" documents.  Coordinating that lots of people have
  taken a dizzying array of classes.  Perhaps hosting classes.

  operating an Emergency Operations Center where command staff decide
  what various resources are going to do during an emergency.

  has some staff who function more or less like firefighters in that
  they go to locations where emergency services are needed and do
urban
  search and rescue, swift water rescue, damage assessment


The first one is definitely office=government government=emergency.  I
think the second one is too.

A facility that houses equipment that personnel from the third
case use
as a response base feels like emergency=ses_station.

Sometimes there are facilities that do all three.  There is a federal
facility in New England that is at least both 2&3 and surely they must
do 1.


Overall I think I'm agreeing with Warin here - some functions of
"Civil
Defense" (as it used to be called before that was politically
incorrect)
are office functions, and some are conceptually similar to fire/rescue
departments.

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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

During discussions on one of the proposals that finished up as
emergency=water_rescue (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_talk:Emergency%3Dlifeboat_station#Use_on_Rescue-related_sites),
there was suggestion of office=government + government=transportation +
emergency=control_centre for those establishments which control emergency
operations, rather than house emergency workers e.g.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/267835828

I have thought about documenting a proposal for that but haven't got to it

Thanks

Graeme


On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 22:00, Greg Troxel  wrote:

> > The places (stations etc) where the emergency response come from would
> > not be an 'office'; "An office is a place of business where
> > administrative or professional work is carried out. "  e.g. lawyers,
> > accountants, records,
>
> In the US we have the concept of "Emergency Management Agency" which is
> at least partly not something like firefighters/ambulance/police.  These
> exist at federal, state, county and local levels.  They more or less does
> three things:
>
>   planning and training for future emergencies.  Creation of "Local
>   Emergency Plan" documents.  Coordinating that lots of people have
>   taken a dizzying array of classes.  Perhaps hosting classes.
>
>   operating an Emergency Operations Center where command staff decide
>   what various resources are going to do during an emergency.
>
>   has some staff who function more or less like firefighters in that
>   they go to locations where emergency services are needed and do urban
>   search and rescue, swift water rescue, damage assessment
>
>
> The first one is definitely office=government government=emergency.  I
> think the second one is too.
>
> A facility that houses equipment that personnel from the third case use
> as a response base feels like emergency=ses_station.
>
> Sometimes there are facilities that do all three.  There is a federal
> facility in New England that is at least both 2&3 and surely they must
> do 1.
>
>
> Overall I think I'm agreeing with Warin here - some functions of "Civil
> Defense" (as it used to be called before that was politically incorrect)
> are office functions, and some are conceptually similar to fire/rescue
> departments.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Greg Troxel]

> The places (stations etc) where the emergency response come from would
> not be an 'office'; "An office is a place of business where
> administrative or professional work is carried out. "  e.g. lawyers,
> accountants, records,

In the US we have the concept of "Emergency Management Agency" which is
at least partly not something like firefighters/ambulance/police.  These
exist at federal, state, county and local levels.  They more or less does
three things:

  planning and training for future emergencies.  Creation of "Local
  Emergency Plan" documents.  Coordinating that lots of people have
  taken a dizzying array of classes.  Perhaps hosting classes.

  operating an Emergency Operations Center where command staff decide
  what various resources are going to do during an emergency.

  has some staff who function more or less like firefighters in that
  they go to locations where emergency services are needed and do urban
  search and rescue, swift water rescue, damage assessment


The first one is definitely office=government government=emergency.  I
think the second one is too.

A facility that houses equipment that personnel from the third case use
as a response base feels like emergency=ses_station.

Sometimes there are facilities that do all three.  There is a federal
facility in New England that is at least both 2&3 and surely they must
do 1.


Overall I think I'm agreeing with Warin here - some functions of "Civil
Defense" (as it used to be called before that was politically incorrect)
are office functions, and some are conceptually similar to fire/rescue
departments.

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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Warin]

On 15/5/23 17:41, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone


On 15 May 2023, at 09:18, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tag it with office=government + government=emergency. "


One of 'my' cases are "Fire Control Centres" where directions are 
given to bush fire fighters in the field.


Thoughts???



I think this would still be quite generic tagging for an entity that 
only deals with fire control. There are already some tags in use for 
some emergency related features, e.g.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency_service%3Dtechnical



I have no idea what a THW Station is .. so

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technisches_Hilfswerk


The places (stations etc) where the emergency response come from would 
not be an 'office'; "An office is a place of business where 
administrative or professional work is carried out. "  e.g. lawyers, 
accountants, records,




https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dses_station



Those I know ... the stations send out people and equipment to respond 
to storms, floods ... and some times other things. An administration 
site for them would not be sending people out into the field .. they 
handle purchases of equipment, insurance, training schedules .. basic 
paperwork. I think I have mapped such a site but am yet to confirm what 
I think it is, an administration site only not a response site.



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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15 May 2023, at 09:18, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tag it with office=government + government=emergency. "
> 
> 
> One of 'my' cases are "Fire Control Centres" where directions are given to 
> bush fire fighters in the field.
> 
> Thoughts???


I think this would still be quite generic tagging for an entity that only deals 
with fire control. There are already some tags in use for some emergency 
related features, e.g. 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency_service%3Dtechnical

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dses_station



Cheers Martin ___
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