Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 at 14:45, bkil  wrote:

> leisure=outdoor_seating + shelter=no + covered=no
>

The wiki for the tag does not offer shelter or covered as associated tags.
Instead it
has weather_protection.

leisure=outdoor_seating seems to do what the OP wanted.  The only quibble I
have with
it is the icon, which shows it as being covered irrespective of
weather_protection=*.  If
you're a tourist in Cardigan on a day which is hot but it's also raining,
you might plan to eat
at the Fusion Bar and Restaurant https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/587710043
because it appears to have covered outdoor seating.  Or at Bara Menyn
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/578156741  Or at El Salsa
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/612581937
.
In reality, none of them have any form of weather protection.  Not even
parasols on the tables.

After three disappointments you probably wouldn't bother going to the
Cardiff Arms in Cilgerran
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/679041950 because you now know not to
trust the icon.
That actually does have weather protection.

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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[bkil]

leisure=outdoor_seating + shelter=no + covered=no

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 3:11 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 at 13:49, bkil  wrote:
>
>> Note that outdoor_seating is usually for customers, so don't forget to
>> add:
>> access=yes
>>
>
> True, usually it's associated with customers.  But there may be public
> outdoor seating,
> possibly covered.
>
> Also, why not simply use the already established:
>> shelter=no + covered=no?
>>
>
> Because an uncovered shelter isn't much of a shelter (not in places where
> it rains a lot).  And
> a shelter doesn't necessarily have any seating.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 at 13:49, bkil  wrote:

> Note that outdoor_seating is usually for customers, so don't forget to add:
> access=yes
>

True, usually it's associated with customers.  But there may be public
outdoor seating,
possibly covered.

Also, why not simply use the already established:
> shelter=no + covered=no?
>

Because an uncovered shelter isn't much of a shelter (not in places where
it rains a lot).  And
a shelter doesn't necessarily have any seating.

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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[bkil]

Note that outdoor_seating is usually for customers, so don't forget to add:
access=yes

Also, why not simply use the already established:
shelter=no + covered=no?

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:35 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 at 11:01, bkil  wrote:
>
>> This is what note=* is for - when you'd like to disclose an important
>> fact with future mappers that is not that interesting to non-mappers. You
>> may also draw a way/area and indicate the count of benches there or the
>> total sitting capacity. We may need to submit a proposal this, though.
>>
>
> Or use leisure=outdoor_seating.  Not a solution if you're mapping musical
> benches that are
> indoors, but otherwise it does what is required.  It doesn't offer a bench
> count but does say you
> can use capacity.  And it renders.
>
> My only gripe with this tag is the icon.  The same icon is used whether
> the area has weather
> protection (such as a canopy) or not: the icon shows a bench with a roof
> over it.  Most outdoor
> seating areas I've encountered around here are not covered (I believe the
> situation is the reverse
> in some countries) and I find the icon to be very misleading.  Tourism is
> a big part of the local
> economy here, and a tourist planning a trip on a rainy day could end up
> being unhappy to find
> the outdoor seating isn't actually covered.  I raised this with carto who
> dismissed the idea of
> using a different icon where weather_protection=no.
>
> --
> Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 at 11:01, bkil  wrote:

> This is what note=* is for - when you'd like to disclose an important fact
> with future mappers that is not that interesting to non-mappers. You may
> also draw a way/area and indicate the count of benches there or the total
> sitting capacity. We may need to submit a proposal this, though.
>

Or use leisure=outdoor_seating.  Not a solution if you're mapping musical
benches that are
indoors, but otherwise it does what is required.  It doesn't offer a bench
count but does say you
can use capacity.  And it renders.

My only gripe with this tag is the icon.  The same icon is used whether the
area has weather
protection (such as a canopy) or not: the icon shows a bench with a roof
over it.  Most outdoor
seating areas I've encountered around here are not covered (I believe the
situation is the reverse
in some countries) and I find the icon to be very misleading.  Tourism is a
big part of the local
economy here, and a tourist planning a trip on a rainy day could end up
being unhappy to find
the outdoor seating isn't actually covered.  I raised this with carto who
dismissed the idea of
using a different icon where weather_protection=no.

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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[bkil]

This is what note=* is for - when you'd like to disclose an important fact
with future mappers that is not that interesting to non-mappers. You may
also draw a way/area and indicate the count of benches there or the total
sitting capacity. We may need to submit a proposal this, though.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:note

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:53 AM André Pirard 
wrote:

> On 24/12/2017 02.21, Matej Lieskovský wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> is there a way to map objects, whose position changes slightly?
>
> In fact, the position of all objects changes slightly over time and a
> coordinate should be a vector indicating a position and a (presently best
> value of) direction and speed of drift.
> The Greenwich meridian is presently 102m west away of the zero latitude of
> a GPS and it continues to drift.
> See Greenwich Meridian 
> which is now 0.0014864° W by its nodes (which should have the same value
> BTW).
>
> All the best,
>
> André.
>
> Example:
> I know a park that has a few dozen benches. They are there practically
> all-year-round, but their position changes every now and then. A fixme
> would imply that the problem can be fixed (which does not seem practical),
> leaving them out completely is less than ideal and leaving them as nodes
> gives a false sense of precision, which is not perfect either. Is there a
> way of saying "there are benches somewhere around here"?
>
> Merry X-mas,
>
> Matej
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[André Pirard]

On 24/12/2017 02.21, Matej Lieskovský wrote:

Hello,

is there a way to map objects, whose position changes slightly?
In fact, the position of all objects changes slightly over time and a 
coordinate should be a vector indicating a position and a (presently 
best value of) direction and speed of drift.
The Greenwich meridian is presently 102m west away of the zero latitude 
of a GPS and it continues to drift.
See Greenwich Meridian   
which is now 0.0014864° W by its nodes (which should have the same value 
BTW).


All the best,

André.



Example:
I know a park that has a few dozen benches. They are there practically 
all-year-round, but their position changes every now and then. A fixme 
would imply that the problem can be fixed (which does not seem 
practical), leaving them out completely is less than ideal and leaving 
them as nodes gives a false sense of precision, which is not perfect 
either. Is there a way of saying "there are benches somewhere around 
here"?


Merry X-mas,

Matej



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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[Matej Lieskovský]

I suspect I did not describe the situation well enough. The park is 2.4 ha.
There are some fixed benches in some parts of the park and cca 50 moveable
ones in the main area, where there are no fixed benches. The moveable
benches line three paths in somewhat irregular intervals of about 10m. I
suspect the benches are moved by a few meters by the gardeners in order to
spread out the wear on the grass underneath them and make it easier to mow
the grass. While the benches line both sides of about 250m of paths, they
don't move too far from their original positions.

The current situation is that the benches are mapped according to some
ortho. While inaccurate, I still think that describes the current situation
better than some area.

On 30 Dec 2017 09:31, "Martin Koppenhoefer"  wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 28. Dec 2017, at 14:06, Matej Lieskovský 
> wrote:
> >
> > The benches are there, quite probably within 10m of their location in
> the map. While this is abysmal accuracy, it is not entirely wrong.
>
>
> 10m absolute location accuracy for a spot within a much bigger area isn’t
> abysmal at all, it is typical.
> Some hundred meters would be abysmal accuracy.
>
> Still, with several benches and this location precision it could mean a
> heart shaped arrangement of benches, a star, a circle, an S, etc. and
> therefore quite misleading overall
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 28. Dec 2017, at 14:06, Matej Lieskovský  
> wrote:
> 
> The benches are there, quite probably within 10m of their location in the 
> map. While this is abysmal accuracy, it is not entirely wrong.


10m absolute location accuracy for a spot within a much bigger area isn’t 
abysmal at all, it is typical. 
Some hundred meters would be abysmal accuracy.

Still, with several benches and this location precision it could mean a heart 
shaped arrangement of benches, a star, a circle, an S, etc. and therefore quite 
misleading overall 


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[marc marc]

Let's me try to show what a "like an outdoor seating of a restaurant"
could be in the case of a park :
draw an area of 10m2 where the "variable bench" are.
On this area put tags like :
bench=yes
bench:capacity=15 (or bench:device=15)
bench:material=wood
bench:note=localisation of those benchs are unknown due the fact they 
are moving in this area
lancover=grass
leisure=park (is not already put on the whole park) or 
leisure=outdoor_seating if some service are available.

Regards,
Marc

Le 28. 12. 17 à 14:06, Matej Lieskovský a écrit :
> I respectfully disagree.
> 
> The benches are there, quite probably within 10m of their location in 
> the map. While this is abysmal accuracy, it is not entirely wrong. Isn't 
> "there aren't any known benches here" a worse information than being 10m 
> off?
> 
> That same park has several stone benches that do not move. Let's say 
> that I tag the park with "bench=yes". So there is a park with 
> "bench=yes" and "bench:material=wood" that contains several 
> "amenity=bench" with "material=stone". I can imagine this would be 
> rather confusing even to a human.
> 
> Do we have a landuse=bench tag? Do we really want one? It does not feel 
> like the right key... But yes, some way of saying "there are 15 benches 
> somewhere in this area" sounds like a reasonable solution. Not sure if 
> better, but at least usable.
> 
> A "position=variable" tag feels more natural, but I do agree that it is 
> far from perfect.
> 
> On 28 December 2017 at 12:27, marc marc wrote:
> 
> Le 28. 12. 17 à 11:05, Matej Lieskovský a écrit :
> > If we mark the object with a note:
> >   - an unaware data consumer will see the object with an inaccurate 
> position
> 
> your proposal has the same defect as those that create objects that do
> not exist (highway or building for example) and that add tags
> (in_use=no, construction=yes, state=proposed) to say that the main
> information is wrong, hopping that everbody else 'll parse additional
> tag to have the correct meaning.
> 
> Osm is a geographical database, not an inventory. therefore by default
> it can be expected that an object is at its position. if this is not the
> case and if you don't like the idea of making an area for the position
> where it is, I think you will have to use a namespame like variable: in
> order not to mislead the 99.99% of uses that ignore your new tag.
> yet when I compare with existential functions, a restaurant for example,
> you don't put a node in every place where there is a seat, you put the
> info on the poi with outdoor_seating tag
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:outdoor_seating
> 
> For a bus stop or a shetler, we use bench=yes
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Abench
> 
> you can draw an area to delimit the location of the benches and add the
> corresponding lander/lancover/leisure tag
> can it not fill for your need without giving wrong info that parse major
> tags ?
> 
> Regards,
> Marc
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> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[Matej Lieskovský]

I respectfully disagree.

The benches are there, quite probably within 10m of their location in the
map. While this is abysmal accuracy, it is not entirely wrong. Isn't "there
aren't any known benches here" a worse information than being 10m off?

That same park has several stone benches that do not move. Let's say that I
tag the park with "bench=yes". So there is a park with "bench=yes" and
"bench:material=wood" that contains several "amenity=bench" with
"material=stone". I can imagine this would be rather confusing even to a
human.

Do we have a landuse=bench tag? Do we really want one? It does not feel
like the right key... But yes, some way of saying "there are 15 benches
somewhere in this area" sounds like a reasonable solution. Not sure if
better, but at least usable.

A "position=variable" tag feels more natural, but I do agree that it is far
from perfect.

On 28 December 2017 at 12:27, marc marc  wrote:

> Le 28. 12. 17 à 11:05, Matej Lieskovský a écrit :
> > If we mark the object with a note:
> >   - an unaware data consumer will see the object with an inaccurate
> position
>
> your proposal has the same defect as those that create objects that do
> not exist (highway or building for example) and that add tags
> (in_use=no, construction=yes, state=proposed) to say that the main
> information is wrong, hopping that everbody else 'll parse additional
> tag to have the correct meaning.
>
> Osm is a geographical database, not an inventory. therefore by default
> it can be expected that an object is at its position. if this is not the
> case and if you don't like the idea of making an area for the position
> where it is, I think you will have to use a namespame like variable: in
> order not to mislead the 99.99% of uses that ignore your new tag.
> yet when I compare with existential functions, a restaurant for example,
> you don't put a node in every place where there is a seat, you put the
> info on the poi with outdoor_seating tag
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:outdoor_seating
> For a bus stop or a shetler, we use bench=yes
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Abench
> you can draw an area to delimit the location of the benches and add the
> corresponding lander/lancover/leisure tag
> can it not fill for your need without giving wrong info that parse major
> tags ?
>
> Regards,
> Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[marc marc]

Le 28. 12. 17 à 11:05, Matej Lieskovský a écrit :
> If we mark the object with a note:
>   - an unaware data consumer will see the object with an inaccurate position

your proposal has the same defect as those that create objects that do 
not exist (highway or building for example) and that add tags 
(in_use=no, construction=yes, state=proposed) to say that the main 
information is wrong, hopping that everbody else 'll parse additional 
tag to have the correct meaning.

Osm is a geographical database, not an inventory. therefore by default 
it can be expected that an object is at its position. if this is not the 
case and if you don't like the idea of making an area for the position 
where it is, I think you will have to use a namespame like variable: in 
order not to mislead the 99.99% of uses that ignore your new tag.
yet when I compare with existential functions, a restaurant for example, 
you don't put a node in every place where there is a seat, you put the 
info on the poi with outdoor_seating tag
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:outdoor_seating
For a bus stop or a shetler, we use bench=yes
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Abench
you can draw an area to delimit the location of the benches and add the 
corresponding lander/lancover/leisure tag
can it not fill for your need without giving wrong info that parse major 
tags ?

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[Matej Lieskovský]

I've thought about it and I believe the option with a note is better.

If we tag it on the area:
 - an unaware data consumer will see just some strange tags
 - an informed data consumer will know "somewhere in there"

If we mark the object with a note:
 - an unaware data consumer will see the object with an inaccurate position
 - an informed data consumer will know "somewhere around there"

With the exception of data consumers who rely on accurate positions (which
is a dangerous thing to do with OSM), an (reasonably) inaccurate position
seems better than no position. If I want to find a bench, getting a
position 10m off seems better than not seeing any. Also, tagging on the
area will likely be messy - I might want to add a lot of details about a
bench, which would result in tons of tags on the area, which would require
something like ":bench" and so on... Finally, an object with a note can
give a bit more information - while the fact that a bench will not leave
the park and a BWE will stay in the mine is somewhat intuitive, expressing
"benches are usually along these three paths" would be nigh impossible with
a tag on an area.

Thing is, notes are meant to be human readable, not machine readable. Notes
can contain other information and are harder to look for typos in. Couldn't
we agree on a tag for these objects? Something like "position=variable"?

On 25 December 2017 at 23:15, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> On 25 December 2017 at 01:46, Michal Fabík  wrote:
>
> Can anybody think of other examples like this?
>
>
> Cranes?
>
> I was thinking about Hammerhead cranes that are used on (usually)
> high-rise construction sites & are in place for maybe 12 months (+/-) at a
> time, depending on duration of construction. These are also visible from
> quite a distance to give a navigation reference, although, of course,
> they're usually found in built-up areas (& are also on construction sites,
> which will also be marked as such in OSM! :-))
>
> Also just thought about dockside cranes for loading shipping containers.
> They would always be on this particular dock, but may travel up & down
> along the length of the dock?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 25 December 2017 at 01:46, Michal Fabík  wrote:

Can anybody think of other examples like this?


Cranes?

I was thinking about Hammerhead cranes that are used on (usually) high-rise
construction sites & are in place for maybe 12 months (+/-) at a time,
depending on duration of construction. These are also visible from quite a
distance to give a navigation reference, although, of course, they're
usually found in built-up areas (& are also on construction sites, which
will also be marked as such in OSM! :-))

Also just thought about dockside cranes for loading shipping containers.
They would always be on this particular dock, but may travel up & down
along the length of the dock?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[Michal Fabík]

On 24.12.2017 02:21, Matej Lieskovský wrote:

is there a way to map objects, whose position changes slightly?


Hi,
I was actually thinking about the same the other day, only for a bucket 
wheel excavator. It's not stationary but it never leaves its surface 
mine, so it's always within the same area of at most a couple square 
kilometres that can generally be mapped as one polygon. A BWE is a huge 
monster of a machine that can be seen from afar so I would say it's of 
mapping interest (rough visual orientation and even a tourist sight for 
engineering nerds).

Can anybody think of other examples like this?
Regards,

--
Michal

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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Dec 2017, at 02:21, Matej Lieskovský  
> wrote:
> 
> . A fixme would imply that the problem can be fixed (which does not seem 
> practical), leaving them out completely is less than ideal and leaving them 
> as nodes gives a false sense of precision, which is not perfect either. Is 
> there a way of saying "there are benches somewhere around here"?



rather than a fixme it could be a “note” or “description”

I would go with the nodes if the position is approximately the same and (maybe, 
or nothing at all) a property like benches=yes on the park if the positions 
change significantly. You could also add benches:capacity=number of seats

The latter 2 tags are non-established adhoc inventions.


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Variable position

[marc marc]

Hello,

Add bench=yes to the  parc itself  + note

Regards,
Marc

> Le 24 déc. 2017 à 05:22, Matej Lieskovský  a 
> écrit :
> 
> Hello,
> 
> is there a way to map objects, whose position changes slightly?
> Example:
> I know a park that has a few dozen benches. They are there practically 
> all-year-round, but their position changes every now and then. A fixme would 
> imply that the problem can be fixed (which does not seem practical), leaving 
> them out completely is less than ideal and leaving them as nodes gives a 
> false sense of precision, which is not perfect either. Is there a way of 
> saying "there are benches somewhere around here"?
> 
> Merry X-mas,
> 
> Matej
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