Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[John Willis]

> On Feb 21, 2018, at 9:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> I would not consider a freestanding statue or several of them (not in a niche 
> or covered or inside some other construction) , a “shrine”


They are usually the same objects inside other wayside shrines (as I understand 
it).  The other “statues” are simply luckier to have a roof. 
 
I understand that mapping objects - small wooden or similar structures too 
small for people to enter vs a statue seems like a good distinction to make, 
especially for “duck” mapping. 

but similar to how we would map bicycle parking as covered=yes/no, the parking 
is the major concern, rather than then the rain cover. 

Maybe it is proper to separate the freestanding jiso statues into a separate 
category (wayside_statue), but Tomoya is approaching it as they are both 
wayside statues of jizo. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/11091167075/in/album-72157638113676925/ 


I believe these are the same statues. They serve the same purpose. they both 
get little clothes made for them and prayed to. one group has a roof, the other 
doesn’t.  this is a way_side shrine on a larger POW ground, along a walking 
path to the main building. They are pretty common too. 

Because they are basically the same thing, Tomoya chooses to view them like 
bicycle parking (one category, covered=yes/no), while you see them as separate 
wayside_statue / wayside_shrine. 


It might be better to let wayside_shrine be kind of a catchall, and make a 
wayside_shrine=* subtage with extenable values, rather than making a new tag 
for every object: column, painting, statue, etc to keep them grouped together - 
but still allow proper definition. 

javbw

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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Feb 2018, at 14:12, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> 
> * Jizo statue enshrines the spirit of Jizo, a buddhism master. So we pray to 
> it.


that’s a good point, thank you for the background, I agree it can be seen like 
this. 

So my critique remains only for the column and not for the buddhist statues


Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

wikipedia has also a reference to the etymology in the first phrase:

A shrine (Latin: scrinium "case or chest for books or papers"; Old French: 
escrin "box or case")[1] 


Frankly, I wouldn’t rely on wikipedia for edge cases.

Cheers,
Martin 

sent from a phone

> On 21. Feb 2018, at 14:12, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> 
> * Wikipedia shows some "shrine" without "building".
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrine
> * Jizo statue enshrines the spirit of Jizo, a buddhism master. So we pray to 
> it.
> 
> muramoto
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[tomoya muramoto]

* Wikipedia shows some "shrine" without "building".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrine
* Jizo statue enshrines the spirit of Jizo, a buddhism master. So we pray
to it.

muramoto
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Feb 2018, at 14:53, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> 
> I added some photo example to wiki, 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Dwayside_shrine



Please do not add more examples to the wiki which contradict the definition 
(that a wayside shrine requires a shrine) while we’re still discussing here.

Looking in a dictionary, “shrine” can mean:

A place regarded as holy because of its associations with a divinity or a 
sacred person or relic, marked by a building or other construction.

1.1 A place associated with or containing memorabilia of a particular revered 
person or thing.
‘her grave has become a shrine for fans from all over the world’
.2 A casket containing sacred relics; a reliquary
1.3 A niche or enclosure containing a religious statue or other object.


all these examples are about “enclosing” something, because it is the meaning 
of shrine and enshrining. 

I would not consider a freestanding statue or several of them (not in a niche 
or covered or inside some other construction) , a “shrine”
(this refers to the buddhist example that was added and to the column that was 
already there)


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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[tomoya muramoto]

> I assumed it was a shrine for the hill it is on. Would a Mikoshi be
stored so far away from the road?
If there's only this building, it could be a shinto shrine
(amenity=place_of_worship + religion=shinto)

> Is "building=garage" standard tagging for mikoshi storage buildings of
any size?
It's just my idea. There's no standard for mikoshi storage building.
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[John Willis]

Tomoya - Thanks for the translation help! I wasn't expecting that. 

 This particular building is 300m into the forest, at the top of a small hill, 
accessed only by a walking trail. I assumed it was a shrine for the hill it is 
on. Would a Mikoshi be stored so far away from the road? 

I know of several portable shrine storehouses (two story tall "garages" for the 
large wagon-style ones used in Omama and Kiryu), but I do not know a lot about 
the smaller mikoshi carried by a few people. 

Is "building=garage" standard tagging for mikoshi storage buildings of any 
size? 

Javbw. 

> On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:49 PM, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> 
> > https://m.imgur.com/a/cyFFn
> 
> * 1st and 2nd: Shinto shrine?
> I cannot deside its a Shinto shrine or not. It could be a Shinto 
> garage(Mikoshi is placed in it).
> If so, I would tag it as building=garage(or yes) + religion=shinto (without 
> amenity=place_of_worship).
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[tomoya muramoto]

> For some context, here are 4 pictures.
> https://m.imgur.com/a/cyFFn

* 1st and 2nd: Shinto shrine?
I cannot deside its a Shinto shrine or not. It could be a Shinto
garage(Mikoshi is placed in it).
If so, I would tag it as building=garage(or yes) + religion=shinto (without
amenity=place_of_worship).

* 3rd: small wayside shrines
A sign says "A Big Cryptomeria tree of Acala Buddhism god".
Acala could be enshrined in the temple nearby.

* 4th: Tablets
It is very difficult to distinguish "memorial" and "wayside_shrine".
The words on the left tablet is "Dragon Lamp Pine tree".
There could be a legend that a dragon lighted up a pine tree here.
So I think it is historic=memorial, there was a legendary pine tree here.

> https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/11083806845/
It's difficult to read it. I think it is "Eternal Pine tree Lamp".
Maybe similar legend is here.

> https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/11091117975/
I can't read the word at all.
However it looks like a shinto object to me.
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-16 13:24 GMT+01:00 tomoya muramoto :

>
>>
>> While the shinto shrine seems to fit perfectly, I feel the statues suffer
>> from the same problem as the column: there's no shrine, especially as there
>> are (apparently) true jizo shrines, e.g. http://sokukoji.org/20140101_j
>> izo-shrine_640/
>>
>
> Shinto small shrine and Jizo are used in the almost same way;  we pray to
> these religious objects.
> I think OSM tag should be defined based on its usage, not on its physical
> shape.
>



that's where we disagree, probably. I think if the tag is about the
physical shape (wayside shrine) it should not include other things with
"the same function" or use. If we want a tag for things you can pray to,
the tag should get a different name.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[tomoya muramoto]

>
>
> I was surprised to find man_made=torii when I was napping near Mt Haruna.
> I assume there are changes to the Japanese tagging that happen that I don't
> notice.
>
> Discussion on man_made=torii is here
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JA_talk:Tag:religion%3Dshinto

And Shinto related objects are defined here
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JA:Tag:religion%3Dshinto
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[tomoya muramoto]

>
>
>
> While the shinto shrine seems to fit perfectly, I feel the statues suffer
> from the same problem as the column: there's no shrine, especially as there
> are (apparently) true jizo shrines, e.g. http://sokukoji.org/20140101_
> jizo-shrine_640/
>

Shinto small shrine and Jizo are used in the almost same way;  we pray to
these religious objects.
I think OSM tag should be defined based on its usage, not on its physical
shape.

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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-15 14:53 GMT+01:00 tomoya muramoto :

> I added some photo example to wiki, https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Dwayside_shrine
>
> Japanese community has agreed to use historic=wayside_shrine to these
> objects;
> * Shinto small shrine, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokora
> * Jizo, carved statue of a famous buddhist, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> K%E1%B9%A3itigarbha
> Many Japanese pray to these objects, so we decided to use the same tag.
>
>

While the shinto shrine seems to fit perfectly, I feel the statues suffer
from the same problem as the column: there's no shrine, especially as there
are (apparently) true jizo shrines, e.g.
http://sokukoji.org/20140101_jizo-shrine_640/


See discussion (ja): https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ja/2014-
> June/008339.html


;-)


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[John Willis]

> On Feb 15, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> +1 to require „enshrining“ for a shrine.

For some context, here are 4 pictures. 

https://m.imgur.com/a/cyFFn

The first two is a remote Shinto shrine (building=shrine) located on a hilltop. 

It is a building the size of a garage. 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/557838211

The third is a small wayside shrine for a natural spring, visible as white 
bubbles on the left. A much larger temple (?) Is 30m away. 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3608984826

The last one is a mystery to me. There are often carved tablets or writing 
carved into the stone near certian natural features. These are on enoshima 
island near the cliffs and tidal flats, with a view of Mt Fuji. I see these 
kind of carvings and tablets - but I have no idea of their origin or purpose. 

They are below this building. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/191675374

Similar to this carving in Kyoto in a temple complex 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/11083806845/

Or this tablet in a rural mountain forest. 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/11091117975/

They might all have different meanings and completely different form one 
another - but represent the kind of "wayside objects" I see that are in the 
smaller side. 


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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[John Willis]

> On Feb 15, 2018, at 10:53 PM, tomoya muramoto  
> wrote:
> 
> I added some photo example to wiki, 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Dwayside_shrine

Thanks for telling us about things going on in the Japanese discussions and 
adding examples. Please correct any of my statements if I get something wrong. 

I was surprised to find man_made=torii when I was napping near Mt Haruna. I 
assume there are changes to the Japanese tagging that happen that I don't 
notice. 

ありがとう!

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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 15, 2018, at 5:44 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> This seems to imply that wayside_cross is a subclass of wayside shrine (all 
> instances of crosses are also shrines)?


I think it is really difficult to tease apart "memorial" from a lot of these 
religious objects. I imagine the wayside cross and shrine in many cultures are 
put there to memorialize someone who died or some event that occured. I imagine 
(without fully understanding) that this is true in Japan for some of them. 
Others, particularly the small ones near some natural feature (tiny waterfall, 
small hill) are for that feature, not as a memorial to someone - they are for 
the natural spirit of of that feature. 

There is also so much decorative Christian iconography in some places that it 
may be hard. I can see the second example (statue in the wall) as possibly 
being a wayside something. 

Wayside crosses are usually very personal to the person that set them (as I 
understand them being for someone who died), similar to the more secular 
memorial plaque, whereas man_made=cross or =torii are usually very large 
symbols for symbolism's sake, or a part of a landuse=religious complex. 

But figuring out what is a wayside shrine, a memorial, or just some painting on 
a wall could be really hard for someone not very familiar with some of the edge 
cases. 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[tomoya muramoto]

I added some photo example to wiki,
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Dwayside_shrine

Japanese community has agreed to use historic=wayside_shrine to these
objects;
* Shinto small shrine, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokora
* Jizo, carved statue of a famous buddhist,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%A3itigarbha
Many Japanese pray to these objects, so we decided to use the same tag.

See discussion (ja):
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ja/2014-June/008339.html
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-15 4:23 GMT+01:00 John Willis :

>
> This column seems to be like that - a religious object dedicated to a
> worshipped spirit right there, nearby, or a place for locals to leave small
> offerings to the dedicated spirit/dieity/god. Can be a small case for
> holding very small objects or accepting donations as well.




This seems to imply that wayside_cross is a subclass of wayside shrine (all
instances of crosses are also shrines)?

What about this:
http://view.stern.de/de/picture/2339744/hegner-maria-madonna-wandgemaelde-maria-licht-1920.jpg
similar to this:
http://c8.alamy.com/compde/ddybhx/nische-mit-einer-statue-der-maria-und-jesuskind-garmisch-partenkirchen-bayern-ddybhx.jpg

Although the former, like the cross or the column, do not "enshrine"
anything (you mentioned enshrining and I would agree it is a good criterion
for shrines).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 15, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> What do you think about the column, does it meet your expectations for 
> wayside shrine?

If the object is religious in nature, I think it is. 

Very very very old wayside shrines in Japan are usually destroyed. The weather 
demolishes everything. The small stone figure (of indigenous gods?) Carved into 
a stone is still on a rock along the road or sitting on a wall. In urban areas, 
they get small little platforms or shelters, like the one shown in the thread. 
They are sometimes POIs in local maps. 

This column seems to be like that - a religious object dedicated to a 
worshipped spirit right there, nearby, or a place for locals to leave small 
offerings to the dedicated spirit/dieity/god. Can be a small case for holding 
very small objects or accepting donations as well. 
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Feb 2018, at 01:19, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> To me, a building=shrine / temple "enshrines" an object or offers a place for 
> worship of a statue or object.


+1 to require „enshrining“ for a shrine.

What do you think about the column, does it meet your expectations for wayside 
shrine?


Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[John Willis]

There are tons and tons of little singular Budda statues on a pedestal and 
perhaps a little roof,  and people leave coins, sake, and dress them in 
jackets. There are also very tiny Shinto "shrines" on the top of mountains 
(like the size of a shoebox or microwave) that have a spot for offerings and 
candles and whatnot. 

There are probably several million of these in Japan. Most are not mapped.

To me these are wayside_shrines. 

To me, a building=shrine / temple "enshrines" an object or offers a place for 
worship of a statue or object. 

My School's temple has a gigantic Budda in the main temple. You come pray in 
front of it. You can shrink down the building and the statue a lot and still 
have it be "a temple" using these 2 rules: 

1 - There is (somehow) room for someone to go inside. Basically the smallest 
building=temple or building=shrine is about the size of a garden shed. It has a 
door, a person or 3 people can go inside,

2 - the building itself is recognizable as an object itself - unlike the 
way_side shrine or roadside cross or similar - just a little cover or roof over 
a statue and an offering box. 

There are many of these small "garden shed" POWs - but they are mapped and 
considered "shrines" or "temples" by people. 

Javbw

> On Feb 12, 2018, at 10:06 PM, Nelson A. de Oliveira  wrote:
> 
> For example, this Buddhist shrine doesn't seem to have any space or
> cavity (the Buddha is placed on an altar, it seems).



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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Feb 2018, at 18:55, Kevin Kenny  wrote:
> 
> The key aspect is that it is a pilgrimage site


nice research on “shrine” in catholic law, but we’re discussing “wayside 
shrine”, which is, as I understand it, not any shrine with a way nearby 
(because every church has at least one way leading to it, and we don’t tag 
churches with wayside shrine). I’d read it as a term of its own.

Also, our definition tries to cater for different religions (but I’m not sure 
if it is actually used for other than catholic places)

Cheers,
Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:55 AM, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> For me it is something that I would describe as shrine and it is certainly
> the same in function.
>
> I guess that to solve that somebody should check how "shrine" tends to be
> defined (I am not a native speaker of English).

For what it's worth, the definition of 'shrine' being tossed about here reflects
popular language in *some* parts of the English-speaking world.
It is assuredly not the definition in canon law:

> 1230 By the term shrine is understood a church or other sacred place
> to which numerous members of the faithful make pilgrimage for a special
> reason of piety, with the approval of the local Ordinary.
(http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P4J.HTM)

The 'or other holy place' covers a lot of ground. A shrine may be anything
from a simple churchyard 'bathtub Madonna' to a pilgrims' church seating
thousands, like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Shrine_of_the_North_American_Martyrs
to a great cathedral such as
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_the_National_Shrine_of_the_Assumption_of_the_Blessed_Virgin_Mary_%28Baltimore%29
or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_the_National_Shrine_of_the_Immaculate_Conception
The key aspect is that it is a pilgrimage site.

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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[José G Moya Y .]

There could be some bias on the translation.

As an example, the name ID gives to it in Spanish (santuario al borde del
camino=holy place close to a road) is somehow arbitrary.
As most beginners read the translated
tag name only, and different languages make different segmentations of
reality, having translated tag names is prone to errors.

In Spanish we have "humilladero": any place to pray in the street;
"crucero": a column with cross to mark road crossings which is some times a
worship place; "picota": a simple column without cross intended to sign
road crossings were people was bound and executed (so its neither a worship
place nor a milestone), and "hornacina", that seems to be what you mean by
shrine here, a hollow wall containing an image. There are also small
pet-house like shrines we don't call "hornacinas" and I've marked them as
"shrines" -- did I do right?


El 12/2/2018 14:56, "Mateusz Konieczny"  escribió:

> For me it is something that I would describe as shrine and it is certainly
> the same in function.
>
> I guess that to solve that somebody should check how "shrine" tends to be
> defined (I am not a native speaker of English).
>
> On 12 Feb 2018 1:30 p.m., "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
> wrote:
>
>> The wiki has an example for a wayside shrine which I wouldn't classify as
>> "shrine", it's rather a column, no space inside:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Eleonorens%C3%A4ule_Penzing.jpg
>>
>>
>> What do you think, shall we remove the image?
>>
>> Context:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Dwayside_shrine
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>>
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Mateusz Konieczny]

For me it is something that I would describe as shrine and it is certainly
the same in function.

I guess that to solve that somebody should check how "shrine" tends to be
defined (I am not a native speaker of English).

On 12 Feb 2018 1:30 p.m., "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
wrote:

> The wiki has an example for a wayside shrine which I wouldn't classify as
> "shrine", it's rather a column, no space inside:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Eleonorens%C3%A4ule_Penzing.jpg
>
>
> What do you think, shall we remove the image?
>
> Context:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Dwayside_shrine
>
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Feb 2018, at 14:06, Nelson A. de Oliveira  wrote:
> 
> For example, this Buddhist shrine doesn't seem to have any space or
> cavity (the Buddha is placed on an altar, it seems).
> http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=61,12053,0,0,1,0


I’m wouldn’t call this a wayside shrine though, and I guess it is covered


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Nelson A. de Oliveira]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:47 AM, OSMDoudou
<19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:
> According to this description in French [1], to be defined as "oratoire" / 
> "shrine", there should be a cavity to exhibit something (with a cross, a 
> roof, etc.).

Maybe the definition of a "shrine" could be different between the religions?

For example, this Buddhist shrine doesn't seem to have any space or
cavity (the Buddha is placed on an altar, it seems).
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=61,12053,0,0,1,0

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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Feb 2018, at 13:39, Nelson A. de Oliveira  wrote:
> 
> If a symbol is sacred (even if it's a column) and people use it for
> praying/worshiping, is really there any difference from a a small
> building with a space inside?


I think it is about terminology, for instance there is also a tag for wayside 
crosses. With the same argument we could tag a cross as shrine or a column as 
cross, no?

There is also the possibility to use man_made=column (for a column)

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[OSMDoudou]

Yes.

According to this description in French [1], to be defined as "oratoire" / 
"shrine", there should be a cavity to exhibit something (with a cross, a roof, 
etc.).

So, it's also my interpretation that the picture is more a column than a shrine.

[1] http://www.les-oratoires.asso.fr/presentation-oratoires



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Re: [Tagging] wayside shrine tag definition page

[Nelson A. de Oliveira]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> The wiki has an example for a wayside shrine which I wouldn't classify as
> "shrine", it's rather a column, no space inside:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Eleonorens%C3%A4ule_Penzing.jpg

If a symbol is sacred (even if it's a column) and people use it for
praying/worshiping, is really there any difference from a a small
building with a space inside?

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