Re: [Tagging] Shop=tailor vs craft=tailor

[osm.tagging]

“tailor” sounds very much like a craft to me.

 

On the other hand, it’s hard to argue with 1 tagged objects.

 

>From the title of the issue, I assume that craft wasn’t being rendered before? 
>Which might very well explain why everyone used shop to tag it…

 

From: James  
Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2018 12:19
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: [Tagging] Shop=tailor vs craft=tailor

 

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3126#issuecomment-373963431

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=shop%3Dtailor

10 000 uses

vs

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/craft=tailor#overview
5000

Should we support both or just one(if so which?)

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=cannabis

[russdeffner]

Hi Paul and everyone,

 

We decided to just get this ‘base’ tag done first. However, I could see 
cannabis=yes/no or something being added to coffee shops that legally sell, and 
maybe a full cannabis wiki-page if needed to differentiate different cannabis 
related things (I think a few States now also have ‘smoking lounges’, where you 
can consume but not sure the laws on retail sales there). If you want to add 
other ideas, the discussions tab would probably be best so it’s not forgotten 
in the mailing list archives. 

 

Thanks,

=Russ

 

From: Paul Allen  
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 6:24 AM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=cannabis

 

 

 

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 10:17 AM, James  > wrote:

well shop=cannabis is going to be needed in Canada in a couple months as it's 
going to become legal nation wide with goverment run shops July 1st.

 

The preposal looks good

 

For the US and Canada, yes.  For some countries, not entirely applicable as-is. 
 For example, Netherlands, where some coffee shops also sell cannabis (which 
may constitute the bulk of their business and be the main reason people use 
them).

I'm not sure what the best way of handling those is, but it's worth considering 
if something else would be a better fit. 

-- 

Paul

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=cannabis

[Dave Swarthout]

I was one of the people who commented in favor of revitalizing the
proposal. I've been using shop=cannabis to tag shops in Alaska where,
despite the huge cost and burdensome laws regulating them, they are popping
up all over. Even my small town of 5000 people, Homer, Alaska, has one shop
open now and a couple more in the licensing process. This is a tag whose
time has come. Some months ago I started a thread on this list about the
proper way to tag marijuana grow facilities (
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031623.html).
During that conversation, there were some who were concerned that by
mapping such operations we might be exposing them to law enforcement or
other nefarious efforts to raid them or shut them down.

Not to worry. Cannabis is fully legal in Alaska and many other states. I
don't expect to see any of those states back down just because
Attorney General Sessions thinks people who smoke marijuana are bad people.
I'm guessing Sessions can't last through too many more of Trump's purges
but we'll have to see how that plays out.

Best,
Dave


On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 1:02 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:17 AM, James  wrote:
>
>> well shop=cannabis is going to be needed in Canada in a couple months as
>> it's going to become legal nation wide with goverment run shops July 1st.
>>
>
> Not to mention I know of a couple in Vancouver that have been open in
> plain sight and not hiding what they're doing for so long it gets mentioned
> by name in a 25 year old Counting Crows song.  Definitely an overdue tag.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Shop=tailor vs craft=tailor

[James]

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3126#issuecomment-373963431

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=shop%3Dtailor
10 000 uses

vs

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/craft=tailor#overview
5000

Should we support both or just one(if so which?)
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Philip Barnes]

Almost, but the Lord of the Manor still exists and will be the one who benefits 
from mineral rights. Fracking for example.

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 17 March 2018 12:36:36 GMT+00:00, Colin Smale  wrote:
>I have to agree with Martin on this. A Manor was an estate, which
>typically had a big house where the feudal Lords lived, called the
>Manor House. The building therefore cannot itself be a Manor, and any
>feudal function has long since disappeared. 
>
>On 17 March 2018 13:17:27 CET, Volker Schmidt 
>wrote:
>>.
>>
>>I would remove the part that requires a current administrative
>>function.
>>
>>
>>Please do not remove this. This is the wording that made me use the
>>manor
>>tag for the Venetian Villas, which have exactly this characteristic. I
>>believe, but am not sure, that the same applies to the UK manor houses
>>.
>>
>>Volker

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=cannabis

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:17 AM, James  wrote:

> well shop=cannabis is going to be needed in Canada in a couple months as
> it's going to become legal nation wide with goverment run shops July 1st.
>

Not to mention I know of a couple in Vancouver that have been open in plain
sight and not hiding what they're doing for so long it gets mentioned by
name in a 25 year old Counting Crows song.  Definitely an overdue tag.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[José G Moya Y .]

There are structures which are "manors" and I would't tag as a castle. As
an example, a Spanish "cortijo" is the center of a big (originally, feudal)
estate that is metonymically called "cortijo", too.

The central building has a defensive purpose. Historians would say some
walled villages are shaped  "in a 'cortijo' shape". But most people in
Spain would't consider a "cortijo" as a castle.

So I would left the assignment of a castle tag to "emic" local knowdledge.
French manors (châteaux) are castles; from your words, it seems british
manors are castles, but in some countries manors are definitely no castles.


El 17/3/2018 13:45, "Christoph Hormann"  escribió:

> On Saturday 17 March 2018, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> >
> >   I would remove the part that requires a current administrative
> > function.
> >
> >
> > Please do not remove this. This is the wording that made me use the
> > manor tag for the Venetian Villas, which have exactly this
> > characteristic. I believe, but am not sure, that the same applies to
> > the UK manor houses .
>
> I think Martin's point was that a historic manor house does not have to
> fulfill a present day function as administrative centre of an
> agricultural estate.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Colin Smale]

A Manor is not a building, it's an area of land. A Manor House is a building. 

On 17 March 2018 19:40:31 CET, "José G Moya Y."  wrote:
>There are structures which are "manors" and I would't tag as a castle.
>As
>an example, a Spanish "cortijo" is the center of a big (originally,
>feudal)
>estate that is metonymically called "cortijo", too.
>
>The central building has a defensive purpose. Historians would say some
>walled villages are shaped  "in a 'cortijo' shape". But most people in
>Spain would't consider a "cortijo" as a castle.
>
>So I would left the assignment of a castle tag to "emic" local
>knowdledge.
>French manors (châteaux) are castles; from your words, it seems british
>manors are castles, but in some countries manors are definitely no
>castles.
>
>
>El 17/3/2018 13:45, "Christoph Hormann"  escribió:
>
>> On Saturday 17 March 2018, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>> >
>> >   I would remove the part that requires a current administrative
>> > function.
>> >
>> >
>> > Please do not remove this. This is the wording that made me use the
>> > manor tag for the Venetian Villas, which have exactly this
>> > characteristic. I believe, but am not sure, that the same applies
>to
>> > the UK manor houses .
>>
>> I think Martin's point was that a historic manor house does not have
>to
>> fulfill a present day function as administrative centre of an
>> agricultural estate.
>>
>> --
>> Christoph Hormann
>> http://www.imagico.de/
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] windthrow areas (=forest destroyed by winds, =windfall)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 16. Mar 2018, at 22:47, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> I would not expect area where no plant is higher than 50 cm to be
> described as forest. I think that using "landcover=trees" would be
> misleading in this case.



tree is about species, not about age or height 

Would you call a baby “human”?

Cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] windthrow areas (=forest destroyed by winds, =windfall)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 08:44:10 +0100
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> tree is about species, not about age or height 

I am not so sure. Specimen of the same species of plants growing in one
location may be a tree and not a tree in a different location.

For example Pinus Mungo growing in high mountains is typically
considered as bushes and tagged
as natural=scrub as it looks like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_mugo#/media/File:Custura_Bucurei.jpg

But plants from the same species may also grow as trees, see for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pinus_mugo_uncinata_trees.jpg

From what I see trees are defined rather by structure or function
rather than by species (though, as it is typical "there is no
universally recognised precise definition of what a tree is, either
botanically or in common language."*)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree#Definition

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

On 17. Mar 2018, at 12:28, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

>> I wouldn't read too much into the wiki here
> 
> Well, given that humans are incapable of telepathy and nobody who used
> this tag bothered to reply Wiki remain as the best available source.


I agree that there is an issue with the wiki here (manor). I would remove the 
part that requires a current administrative function.

Cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=cannabis

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 10:17 AM, James  wrote:

> well shop=cannabis is going to be needed in Canada in a couple months as
> it's going to become legal nation wide with goverment run shops July 1st.
>
> The preposal looks good
>

For the US and Canada, yes.  For some countries, not entirely applicable
as-is.  For example, Netherlands, where some coffee shops also sell
cannabis (which may constitute the bulk of their business and be the main
reason people use them).

I'm not sure what the best way of handling those is, but it's worth
considering if something else would be a better fit.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Colin Smale]

I have to agree with Martin on this. A Manor was an estate, which typically had 
a big house where the feudal Lords lived, called the Manor House. The building 
therefore cannot itself be a Manor, and any feudal function has long since 
disappeared. 

On 17 March 2018 13:17:27 CET, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>.
>
>I would remove the part that requires a current administrative
>function.
>
>
>Please do not remove this. This is the wording that made me use the
>manor
>tag for the Venetian Villas, which have exactly this characteristic. I
>believe, but am not sure, that the same applies to the UK manor houses
>.
>
>Volker
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 12:51:26 +0100
Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> I have mentioned this many times in different situations before: The 
> purpose of the tag documentation on the wiki is to document actual
> use of tags.  This derives from 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like.  If the wiki
> is no good you should look at how the tag is actually used and
> improve the documentation based on that.  Even if the wiki seems to
> consistently describe the meaning of a tag that is not necessarily
> the actual meaning of this tag.

I fully agree - this is one of typical reasons for my edits of OSM wiki.

But it is worth noting that Wiki is also used to document preferred
tagging methods (not using name tag for descriptions etc), ideas for
new tagging schemes (tagging proposals) and no longer used tagging
schemes that used to be more popular.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=cannabis

[Colin Smale]

On 17 March 2018 13:24:04 CET, Paul Allen  wrote:
>On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 10:17 AM, James  wrote:
>
>  For example, Netherlands, where some coffee shops also sell
>cannabis (which may constitute the bulk of their business and be the
>main
>reason people use them).

Koffieshop is a euphemism for cannabis outlet. It's the ONLY reason people use 
them. If you just want a cup of coffee and a piece of cake, then you go to a 
cafe or a restaurant. 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Christoph Hormann]

On Saturday 17 March 2018, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>
>   I would remove the part that requires a current administrative
> function.
>
>
> Please do not remove this. This is the wording that made me use the
> manor tag for the Venetian Villas, which have exactly this
> characteristic. I believe, but am not sure, that the same applies to
> the UK manor houses .

I think Martin's point was that a historic manor house does not have to 
fulfill a present day function as administrative centre of an 
agricultural estate.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 10:27:10 +
Andy Townsend  wrote:

> OSM doesn't really have deprecated tags

OSM has tags described as terrible idea that should not be used.

> I wouldn't read too much into the wiki here

Well, given that humans are incapable of telepathy and nobody who used
this tag bothered to reply Wiki remain as the best available source.

Even if Wiki is terrible it is usually better than nothing.

> > 3. It's easier for data consumers (including rendering) to have
> > more general categories with subcategories.  
> 
> Speaking as a data consumer, not really.

It depends on situation, but usually subtags are better.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Daniel Koć]

Since there was no response so far, may I propose to deprecate using 
historic=manor and suggest on the wiki page to use only historic=castle 
+ castle_type=manor instead. The reasons:


1. I can't see the difference in what both schemes try to symbolize.

2. There's a section on historic=manor wiki that says:

"There may sometimes be problems distinguishing between manors, castles, 
stately homes. The manor tag is intended only for representative 
buildings that are in the same time the administrative center of a large 
agricultural estate. Buildings lacking this economic feature should not 
be tagged."


Being a subtype of castle shows that distinction is softer than when 
using a separate tag.


3. It's easier for data consumers (including rendering) to have more 
general categories with subcategories.


4. It would be similar to historic=palace situation (historic=castle + 
castle_type=palace is documented and used more than this).


--
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=cannabis

[James]

well shop=cannabis is going to be needed in Canada in a couple months as
it's going to become legal nation wide with goverment run shops July 1st.

The preposal looks good

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:22 PM Michael Patrick,  wrote:

> Here, Cliff :-)
> ( from https://lcb.wa.gov/records/frequently-requested-lists ):
> Marijuana License Applicants
> (contains
> both applicants and issued licenses) When active licenses come up for
> renewal or are undergoing some sort of change their status is changed from
> "Active" to "Pending (Issued)." Please include "Pending (Issued)" when
> filtering to see all currently active licenses
>
> Michael Patrick
> Data Ferret
>
>
> 
>  Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> 
> <#m_-3237784740114912620_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Manor tagging

[Andy Townsend]

On 17/03/2018 09:51, Daniel Koć wrote:
Since there was no response so far, may I propose to deprecate using 
historic=manor and suggest on the wiki page to use only 
historic=castle + castle_type=manor instead. The reasons:



OSM doesn't really have deprecated tags, except in special cases (for 
example highway=ford on a way is a bad idea, because you can't say what 
kind of ford it is).


Also "castle:type=manor" hasn't exactly troubled the scorers so far, has 
it?   https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/castle:type=manor shows a 
grand total of _3_.



2. There's a section on historic=manor wiki that says:

"There may sometimes be problems distinguishing between manors, 
castles, stately homes. The manor tag is intended only for 
representative buildings that are in the same time the administrative 
center of a large agricultural estate. Buildings lacking this economic 
feature should not be tagged."


I wouldn't read too much into the wiki here.  I suspect that almost 
no-one who tags these objects has read it (and I'm basing that on a 
fairly extensive analysis of the usage of historic tags in the UK and 
Ireland).




Being a subtype of castle shows that distinction is softer than when 
using a separate tag.


3. It's easier for data consumers (including rendering) to have more 
general categories with subcategories.


Speaking as a data consumer, not really.  Some aspects of historic 
tagging were difficult, but those were the questions of "is that thing 
still there", "is that thing a building/ruined building, or the grounds 
in which the building is" and "this has a historic tag and lots of other 
tags; which to render"?


For info the relevant bit of the list that I'm using for "historic stuff 
to render" starts at 
https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L1571 
= that's only a long list because I'm looking at all historic stuff, not 
just "castle" and "manor".


I'm using exactly the same rendering pipeline as OSM's standard style, BTW.

Best Regards,

Andy


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging