Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Znoteer via talk]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 01:45:37AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> | From: Znoteer via talk 
> 
> | Looks like I was too late for the meeting. I was the only one in the room. 
> Sorry.
> 
> Don't worry, we elected you President :-)

LOL.

But as President,, I declare the election was rigged :)

-- 
Znoteer
znot...@mailbox.org
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Znoteer via talk 

| Looks like I was too late for the meeting. I was the only one in the room. 
Sorry.

Don't worry, we elected you President :-)
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Znoteer via talk]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 09:02:09PM -0500, Znoteer via talk wrote:
> Hi (znoteer the Montreal lurker here),
> 
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 07:02:04PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > The discussion so far has been very helpful. Many thanks to all who have
> > participated. I look forward to seeing you at tomorrow's meeting.
> > 
> [snip]
> 
> > The conversation so far has identified some people offering to step forward
> > to help right the current ship and render it fit for use. That is very
> [snip]
> Unfortunately, I have choir practice every Tues. I can possibly tune into BBB 
> for the meeting tomorrow, but, alas, late.
> 

Looks like I was too late for the meeting. I was the only one in the room. 
Sorry.

Znoteer
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2022-12-12 17:43, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

The task are not all that hard but when a small number of folks take on
all the load, we get problems because successors are not being trained.


Dare I say the "D" word - Documentation. If training successors is a problem 
then (part of) the solution is to ask for people who work on the tasks to 
document things so that knowledge can be passed on to the next person.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick

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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 8:23 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk 
wrote:

> On 12/12/2022 18.34, Erica Peterson via talk wrote:
> > Re: discord -- perhaps, in the interest of supporting open protocols, we
> could create a Matrix space on element.io?  It is free.
>
> This would be preferable. Discord creates a large moderation burden
> (I've had to moderate a channel during events, and it is no fun at all),
> and the whole content is hidden behind walled-garden links
>

That's been my experience too in the setup of the GTALUG discord server
(and others).

My own comms preference at this point would be:
- Getting our mailing list manageable again using existing tools (mailman
is fine)
- Re-thinking how we build and maintain the website (self-hosted wordpress,
anyone?)
- Using a Signal group or Mattermost (FOSS version of Slack) for those who
prefer chat over mail
- Ditch Discord

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Znoteer via talk]

Hi (znoteer the Montreal lurker here),

On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 07:02:04PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> The discussion so far has been very helpful. Many thanks to all who have
> participated. I look forward to seeing you at tomorrow's meeting.
> 
[snip]

> The conversation so far has identified some people offering to step forward
> to help right the current ship and render it fit for use. That is very
[snip]

I'm one of those people. I offered to help moderate since that doesn't require 
a physical presence.

I'm afraid I wouldn't be much help for email and webdev/maintenance. What I did 
was very basic, a very long time ago (nobody had heard of javascript (cgi 
scripts were the new thing) or googlemail), and stretched me to my 
amateur-sysadmin limits.

I was a junior, volunteer admin of sympa, a maillist system with a gazillion 
options, at a non-profit community run isp. If being unable to be onsite for 
anything is not a hindrance, I could possibly help with maillist maintenance 
(though I probably don't have the experience to be a server admin). I'd 
actually be kinda tickled to do so.

Unfortunately, I have choir practice every Tues. I can possibly tune into BBB 
for the meeting tomorrow, but, alas, late.

Hoping to tune in soon enough tomorrow to talk,

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 12/12/2022 18.34, Erica Peterson via talk wrote:

Re: discord -- perhaps, in the interest of supporting open protocols, we could 
create a Matrix space on element.io?  It is free.


This would be preferable. Discord creates a large moderation burden 
(I've had to moderate a channel during events, and it is no fun at all), 
and the whole content is hidden behind walled-garden links


 Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Erica Peterson via talk]

Re: discord -- perhaps, in the interest of supporting open protocols, we could 
create a Matrix space on element.io?  It is free.

Cheers,
Erica


--- Original Message ---
On Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 5:43 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
 wrote:


> 
> 
> Evan makes many useful points.
> 
> I am the only official maintainer of the system and I only signed on to be
> backup. I just haven't taken the time to figure everything out.
> 
> What's wrong with the current system?
> 
> - there are (rarely) messages that require moderation on the mailing list
> and that isn't being done in a timely fashion. We have volunteers but
> the board has not yet considered them (I asked the board to do so).
> 
> - a particularly important example is that Alan hasn't been whitelisted
> for the announce list. I will endeavour to do this. I haven't yet
> invested the time to figure out how to do this.
> 
> - Gitlab hosts our meeting minutes and agendas. The new board members,
> particularly Evan, don't seem to like that collaborative tool. (I'm
> comfortable enough with it; it seems easy to me.)
> 
> - at some point we are going to have to update the system to a newer
> releases of software (mostly: debian, mailman). As usual, there will be
> unknown hazards there. (Scott has thought about this.)
> 
> In my estimation, switching to a variety of other tools will cause at
> least as many problems as they will solve.
> 
> The key issues are:
> 
> - we need a way of attracting volunteers (and new members; I will pretend
> that that is a separate problem)
> 
> - get volunteer time and effort to provide services that work for us.
> "Us" means maintainers and users.
> 
> - get enough volunteers so the we can survive unexpected resignations.
> 
> - help volunteers do the right thing: work towards positive goals.
> 
> - select tools that provide good services, ones that the "users" are happy
> to use.
> 
> - ease "users" into becoming comfortable and productive with the tools
> 
> - the tools must have a path into the indefinite future. Forced migration
> is not fun.
> 
> It seems that the scarce resource is competent admins. Someone with
> enough time can become competent, so the main scarcity is time.
> 
> We do seem to burn out competent people. We all leave them to do their
> tasks until that happens. We really need a pipeline of people to step
> forward.
> 
> The task are not all that hard but when a small number of folks take on
> all the load, we get problems because successors are not being trained.
> 
> I personally think that the existing services are mostly fine but need
> more:
> 
> - maintainer cycles (currently my fault)
> 
> - opportunities for users to master
> 
> I am not going to be an admin of a non-Linux solution.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because "we've always done it this way" is not a sufficient argument.
> 
> I'm not engaged in Discord but maybe others are. That's why Evan's push
> to create Discord channels is worth a try. Especially since he did the
> work.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the time I've spent as a volunteer has been attending board
> meetings. I am not a member of the board but am invited to attend.
> 
> That shows how little time I've actually put into maintenance. I should
> have spent more; I should have fixed the whitelisting problem.
> 
> It is a worrisome sign that the board meetings sometimes don't reach
> quorum.
> 
> | From: Evan Leibovitch via talk talk@gtalug.org
> 
> | To: GTALUG Talk talk@gtalug.org
> 
> | Cc: Evan Leibovitch evanleibovi...@gmail.com
> 
> | Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 16:36:05 -0500
> | Subject: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services
> |
> | [Apologies if you received this message more than once]
> |
> | Hello everyone,
> |
> | By now you may have read or heard elsewhere about the announcement of the
> | Annual General Meeting (AGM) for the Greater Toronto Linux User Group
> | (GTALUG), to be held virtually https://blue.lpi.org/b/eva-zjc-gjy-kgl on
> 
> | Tuesday December 13.
> |
> | Along with other AGM business, we will be discussing how GTALUG goes
> | forward with our online services.
> |
> | TL;DR: A number of the people who used to set up and run our online
> | services (mainly the website and mailing lists) have left the GTALUG Board,
> | and those who remain have neither the time to fix nor familiarity with the
> | tools currently running these services.
> |
> | As Google has provided to GTALUG its nonprofit services which include full
> | access to commercial Google Workplace (formerly G Suite), the Board has
> | been investigating migr

Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

Evan makes many useful points.

I am the only official maintainer of the system and I only signed on to be 
backup.  I just haven't taken the time to figure everything out.

What's wrong with the current system?

- there are (rarely) messages that require moderation on the mailing list 
  and that isn't being done in a timely fashion.  We have volunteers but 
  the board has not yet considered them (I asked the board to do so).

- a particularly important example is that Alan hasn't been whitelisted 
  for the announce list.  I will endeavour to do this.  I haven't yet 
  invested the time to figure out how to do this.

- Gitlab hosts our meeting minutes and agendas.  The new board members, 
  particularly Evan, don't seem to like that collaborative tool.  (I'm 
  comfortable enough with it; it seems easy to me.)

- at some point we are going to have to update the system to a newer 
  releases of software (mostly: debian, mailman).  As usual, there will be 
  unknown hazards there.  (Scott has thought about this.)

In my estimation, switching to a variety of other tools will cause at 
least as many problems as they will solve.

The key issues are:

- we need a way of attracting volunteers (and new members; I will pretend 
  that that is a separate problem)

- get volunteer time and effort to provide services that work for us.
  "Us" means maintainers and users.

- get enough volunteers so the we can survive unexpected resignations.

- help volunteers do the right thing: work towards positive goals.

- select tools that provide good services, ones that the "users" are happy 
  to use.

- ease "users" into becoming comfortable and productive with the tools

- the tools must have a path into the indefinite future.  Forced migration 
  is not fun.

It seems that the scarce resource is competent admins.  Someone with 
enough time can become competent, so the main scarcity is time.

We do seem to burn out competent people.  We all leave them to do their 
tasks until that happens.  We really need a pipeline of people to step 
forward.

The task are not all that hard but when a small number of folks take on 
all the load, we get problems because successors are not being trained.

I personally think that the existing services are mostly fine but need 
more:

- maintainer cycles (currently my fault)

- opportunities for users to master

I am not going to be an admin of a non-Linux solution.



Just because "we've always done it this way" is not a sufficient argument.

I'm not engaged in Discord but maybe others are.  That's why Evan's push 
to create Discord channels is worth a try.  Especially since he did the 
work.



Most of the time I've spent as a volunteer has been attending board 
meetings.  I am not a member of the board but am invited to attend.

That shows how little time I've actually put into maintenance.  I should 
have spent more; I should have fixed the whitelisting problem.

It is a worrisome sign that the board meetings sometimes don't reach 
quorum.

| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk 
| To: GTALUG Talk 
| Cc: Evan Leibovitch 
| Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 16:36:05 -0500
| Subject: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services
| 
| [Apologies if you received this message more than once]
| 
| Hello everyone,
| 
| By now you may have read or heard elsewhere about the announcement of the
| Annual General Meeting (AGM) for the Greater Toronto Linux User Group
| (GTALUG), to be held virtually <https://blue.lpi.org/b/eva-zjc-gjy-kgl> on
| Tuesday December 13.
| 
| Along with other AGM business, we will be discussing how GTALUG goes
| forward with our online services.
| 
| TL;DR: A number of the people who used to set up and run our online
| services (mainly the website and mailing lists) have left the GTALUG Board,
| and those who remain have neither the time to fix nor familiarity with the
| tools currently running these services.
| 
| As Google has provided to GTALUG its nonprofit services which include full
| access to commercial Google Workplace (formerly G Suite), the Board has
| been investigating migrating some of our online services there.
| 
| While to some such a move would be controversial, the status quo is
| unsustainable. So either we need new people to step forward to operate what
| exists, or we need to move to a service -- provided free of charge -- that
| can dramatically simplify operations.
| 
| The Board wants to have an open discussion on the issue before deciding,
| and the issue will be raised at the AGM. We look forward to hearing your
| views. While responses to this email will certainly be read, the full
| discussion will take place at the AGM.
| 
| Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
| @evanleibovitch / @el56
| 
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[ac via talk]

On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 23:20:09 -0500
"Stewart C. Russell via talk"  wrote:
> On 01/12/2022 02.30, ac via talk wrote:
> > 
> > When "directors" or "boards" or "leaders" make decisions on policy
> > it affects operations. Always. and many times it is "politics" and
> > ...  
> 
> Note that in our case, GTALUG directors are very close to the users. 
> Generally, the services we have are the ones the users were
> interested in. I've been on the board twice, I've seen all the little
> cogwheels turning ...
> 
this is good news, nut it seems that, as a group, we do not have
actual policy rules regarding incoming email relay?

I am willing to work with any other admins or by myself to harden and
configure or re-configure any of the scripts any other admin has added
to the vps lin...@penguin.gtalug.org - and I can setup rules for the 
smtp server - so that it could function the way the group/board specifies. 

I could also setup wordpress, harden etc - but again - rules will be
needed - plugins/theme additions etc. etc. and add any of the other
services the group requires.

At the AGM may someone also discuss the option that the services could
be split? - it does not have to be all @google, we can re-configure the
gandi zone to utilise the best of everything?

Regarding even mailing lists @google - I do not see any technical issues, 
but I do see rules/policy issues/problems - @google there will be other
issues, for example for myself @ a dot me domain name, which relay
frequently either disappears or ends up in spam boxes, and other issues
for people with no main @gmail.com accounts, etc.

So the policy or user group rules should deal with the actual issues
for example if any user relays from @google (or any hacked/abusive smtp
server) and that server is listed as drop on abc/xyz/what? rbl as DROP,
then what are the rules? 

Should our server simply whitelist the affected smtp server? or
should the server bounce the email (as it is probably setup to do now)
(or should the email simply be deleted and disappear (which our server
could also be setup to do...)

> > ... then you need more automation/scripts - seriously, it cannot
> > take that much of your time  
> 
> Part of the problem is that a whole bunch of GTALUG services are held 
> together by legacy scripts. Which the maintainer has moved on from. 

Uhm, okay, but we all (all system admins) have our own scripts that
also work on mailman... soo, I am still not getting the issue(s)?
(and we can all read conf files, and read any scripts/code and either
edit/replace/whatever as required)

> Which the new operator may not understand, or even know they are
> there. We may have lost the documentation (though it's probably in
> the GTALUG github, somewhere - most likely last edited by Chris). So
> more automations will solve some problems and create new ones too.

unless the scripts are compiled and there is no source, (in which
case the new/other/any admin will just add their own)  I do not
understand how an admin would not know/find/edit any of these legacy
scripts?

> You also can't automate moderation in any useful way
> 
on the smtp side additional scripts could reduce incoming trash, which
will reduce high end admin load, there are also some additional changes
that could be made to reduce/automate some of the admin.

and there is no shortage of additional high level admin volunteers, as
Erica has demonstrated?

Just a thought about docs though, maybe we can make another rule that 
everything must be documented, exactly so that anyone can easily do 
whatever they need to do, so if there are/were/is no current proper
doc, this itself can also easily be fixed) - in fact this should probably be
done anyway, no matter if we end up at @linode or @google or at a mix of both

> There are no 'clock' problems: everything here is a 'cloud' (to 
> appropriate Karl Popper's concept of defined, soluble problems vs 
> indeterminate, insoluble ones). The board is burned out. It's good
> that folks are stepping up, but it might not be enough.
> 
email spam @google or @microsoft or @most_places have been mostly
stopped and in 2022 there is still some spam, but it is not a problem
at most providers.

Sure, something still leaks through when trusted users own accounts are 
compromised, but in general, there are no more real issues with spam... 
and there are so many reasonably accurate real time services - so filtering 
incoming relay is not an insoluble problem, it does just need rules though.

so, advice for a burned out board: Improve settings by adding,
following and accepting rules, then, get/involve more high level admins
and add more software to reduce high end admin load

I guess ymmv but with a little tolerance - if your @google server does 
not seem to be able to deliver to @gtalug - and/or correctly
asking/blaming your @google provider,  OR making user group rules stating
that @google (or anyone) is to be whitelisted if their servers are
abusive and they also expect to 

Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 01/12/2022 02.30, ac via talk wrote:


When "directors" or "boards" or "leaders" make decisions on policy it
affects operations. Always. and many times it is "politics" and ...


Note that in our case, GTALUG directors are very close to the users. 
Generally, the services we have are the ones the users were interested 
in. I've been on the board twice, I've seen all the little cogwheels 
turning ...



... then you need more automation/scripts - seriously, it cannot take that
much of your time


Part of the problem is that a whole bunch of GTALUG services are held 
together by legacy scripts. Which the maintainer has moved on from. 
Which the new operator may not understand, or even know they are there. 
We may have lost the documentation (though it's probably in the GTALUG 
github, somewhere - most likely last edited by Chris). So more 
automations will solve some problems and create new ones too. You also 
can't automate moderation in any useful way


There are no 'clock' problems: everything here is a 'cloud' (to 
appropriate Karl Popper's concept of defined, soluble problems vs 
indeterminate, insoluble ones). The board is burned out. It's good that 
folks are stepping up, but it might not be enough.


Thanks, Evan, for your thoughtful answers. Whatever system we end up 
using must have public, web-accessible archives, as anything locked 
behind a user login is not a useful resource.


 Stewart


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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 6:50 PM Evan Leibovitch via talk
 wrote:

snip
> There's a good reason for that ;-).
>
> Let's face it. Email discussion lists are legacy. They're cumbersome and 
> fighting a never-ending battle with spammers and phishers. The main server 
> software choices in current use are listserv (36 years old and proprietary) 
> or mailman (23 years old and FOSS), and you gotta find a host and suitable 
> admins. Plus we still need to maintain an SMTP server, along with anti-spam 
> tools such as RBL hooks which only add more complexity. As a result, most 
> third-party providers of list-based email services these days are 
> one-directional and campaign-based (ie Mailchimp), sources of spam rather 
> than fighters of it. I know very few people younger than 40 for whom email is 
> a preferred means to engage in discussion.
>
> GTALUG has been experimenting with other tools such as a presence on Discord, 
> but email remains the preferred tool of people here for reasons I can best 
> ascribe to inertia. That's OK, but the effort to tame this email beast, in 
> its current form, is too much to bear for our limited resources. (If I had my 
> way we'd be a series of group chats on Signal). Google offers a path for 
> continuing to use email lists that we can live with.
>
Speaking only for myself - - - - well there is a good reason for that inertia!

I am finding that I limit my checking communication time to hopefully
only 2x per day.
(I try not to get too frustrated with 3X but do that if I'm not
getting any work done - - - I'm already tired so then its not like I'm
using valuable work time!)

Adding another communication technique to the list of
1. cell phone texts (I can't do this as I live rural and am in a
reception hole but most people would put that first!)
2. phone calls
3. emails (multiple accounts)
4. texts using a secure service (telegram/signal et al)
5. snail mail
6. other

well that would just takes more 'usable time' from my work day.

I do not get paid to amble around my communications so o o - - - I ask
that entities that I 'treat' with
respect my need to get work done.

Have read of companies that have studied this in their employees and
found that limiting communication time to
only 2 separate times per day results in a greater amount of work
product (assuming that the object isn't closely
tied to communication!!!). And this idea is driving my communication practices.

Viewing anything business related from the desires of the 'under 40' crowd.
Well - - - imo the common malaise is that too many people today go to
work for a paycheck.
They do NOT go to work to get the job or work done. Have run into a
few exceptions to that
but they literally are 'exceptions'!!
That difference needs to be understood.

Moving to multiple methods of communication would likely fragment
communication even further
and would, imo, further reduce the amount.

IMO an even bigger problem is convincing people that they actually
'need' to communicate!

Regards
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[ac via talk]

Hi Erica,

Now @Evan has 2x new volunteers, I am sure that there are a few more :)

I would love to attend the BBB meeting (GTALUG AGM), but it is just
before 3am in my time zone on a day where I have to work a full day the
next day

Whatever the group decides though, please do consider that there are
many skills on the list and that between us we could probably do anything :) 

I would love to contribute whatever is needed to ensure that gtalug
mailing lists continue existing, even if @google or whatever the group
decides...

On Thu, 01 Dec 2022 12:33:49 +
Erica Peterson  wrote:

> What about something like this?
> https://www.mailmanlists.net/en
> 
> $50/year (USD) for a list with up to 1000 subscribers (prices go up
> from there).  I'm not sure how many are on this list.
> 
> I'll happily help administer if the hosting is taken care of (ie, the
> hosting provider handles server admin, patching, etc).
> 
> Cheers,
> Erica
> 
> 
> 
> --- Original Message ---
> On Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 2:30 AM, ac via talk
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 11:30:46 -0500
> > Evan Leibovitch e...@telly.org wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > > We've had some very smart people running mailman and it still
> > > doesn't work to anyone's satisfaction. Or maybe it's our SMTP
> > > server, I don't know which one it is.  
> > 
> > So, this is the place to start.
> > 
> > When "directors" or "boards" or "leaders" make decisions on policy
> > it affects operations. Always. and many times it is "politics" and
> > "feelings" and without a proper understanding of the underlying real
> > issues.
> > 
> > Some background: Re Email: GOOGLE relays almost all of the email on
> > the planet, with Microsoft trailing in second place and the rest of
> > the planet as a small minority.
> > 
> > This has come about mainly because of the initial vast difference in
> > how abuse was handled in the past. Google and Microsoft simply
> > re-writes bounce messages or simply deletes/loses transmission. to
> > be fair most of the surviving email providers like myself, now does
> > exactly the same thing. We are all now lying as this is the new
> > normal and the other new normal is that whenever you receive any
> > incoming relay from Google or Microsoft there are gambling odds
> > that it is rubbish. Google wants and does relay vast amounts of
> > electronic email BUT they do not receive or act on abuse complaints
> > via electronic mail :) Microsoft still receives abuse complaints
> > via email, but, in my own personal opinion: much of the submitted
> > email abuse complaints are meaningless and a waste of time.
> > 
> > Anyway Evan, you said that you tried sending an email to this list
> > on Sunday: I do not know if you received a bounce notification or
> > if your email just disappeared - but the nett result was probably
> > that your email to the list was not distributed. So, on my smtp
> > servers what happened would depend on the reason. For example if
> > the Google server Google used to relay your email was also hacked
> > and sending out malware not yet in anti virus strings, your email
> > would just have silently been deleted and you would not even have
> > received a bounce notice - as Google would have probably either
> > deleted the bounce notification themselves or they would have
> > re-written it to something obtuse stating that failure is due to an
> > administrative prohibition at the recipient mail server (as they
> > never accept responsibility and always blame the victim for their
> > own abuse)
> > 
> > Also, I heard the first time in 1989 that email is dead, after that
> > there has been a thread or news discussion almost every year stating
> > that email is dead. But email is just so unique in that it is
> > imperfect, like us and I am not so sure that it will go quietly
> > into the night anytime soon. Mailing lists however maybe will die,
> > but the level of signal to noise is just so high on other platforms
> > (which is why IRC never killed mailing lists..) that should a group
> > allow their mailing list to die, or fall into disuse, it may affect
> > the quality, diversity and activity of the group.
> > 
> > Regarding your issues with either mailman or smtp server, you do not
> > seem to know or be sure: imo it is more probably the smtp server and
> > also probably not the smtp server itself, but the settings and
> > configuration policies of external free data providers.
> > 
> > Also, it is quite possible that the smtp server is behaving
> > correctly by, for example rejecting your Sunday email - as the
> > server your provider may have been using may have been a
> > compromised server and could have been listed on RBL like Spamcop
> > or sorbs DUL or some other high trust DROP list.
> > 
> > How these things are handled is different in different providers,
> > but what works best is to simply drop everything from the hacked
> > server. So, if for example a Google server becomes hacked 

Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Erica Peterson via talk]

What about something like this?
https://www.mailmanlists.net/en

$50/year (USD) for a list with up to 1000 subscribers (prices go up from 
there).  I'm not sure how many are on this list.

I'll happily help administer if the hosting is taken care of (ie, the hosting 
provider handles server admin, patching, etc).

Cheers,
Erica



--- Original Message ---
On Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 2:30 AM, ac via talk  wrote:


> 
> 
> On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 11:30:46 -0500
> Evan Leibovitch e...@telly.org wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > We've had some very smart people running mailman and it still doesn't
> > work to anyone's satisfaction. Or maybe it's our SMTP server, I don't
> > know which one it is.
> 
> So, this is the place to start.
> 
> When "directors" or "boards" or "leaders" make decisions on policy it
> affects operations. Always. and many times it is "politics" and
> "feelings" and without a proper understanding of the underlying real
> issues.
> 
> Some background: Re Email: GOOGLE relays almost all of the email on the
> planet, with Microsoft trailing in second place and the rest of the
> planet as a small minority.
> 
> This has come about mainly because of the initial vast difference in
> how abuse was handled in the past. Google and Microsoft simply
> re-writes bounce messages or simply deletes/loses transmission. to be
> fair most of the surviving email providers like myself, now does
> exactly the same thing. We are all now lying as this is the new normal
> and the other new normal is that whenever you receive any incoming relay
> from Google or Microsoft there are gambling odds that it is rubbish.
> Google wants and does relay vast amounts of electronic email BUT they
> do not receive or act on abuse complaints via electronic mail :)
> Microsoft still receives abuse complaints via email, but, in my own
> personal opinion: much of the submitted email abuse complaints are
> meaningless and a waste of time.
> 
> Anyway Evan, you said that you tried sending an email to this list on
> Sunday: I do not know if you received a bounce notification or if your
> email just disappeared - but the nett result was probably that your
> email to the list was not distributed. So, on my smtp servers what
> happened would depend on the reason. For example if the Google server
> Google used to relay your email was also hacked and sending out malware
> not yet in anti virus strings, your email would just have silently been
> deleted and you would not even have received a bounce notice - as Google
> would have probably either deleted the bounce notification themselves or
> they would have re-written it to something obtuse stating that failure
> is due to an administrative prohibition at the recipient mail server (as
> they never accept responsibility and always blame the victim for their
> own abuse)
> 
> Also, I heard the first time in 1989 that email is dead, after that
> there has been a thread or news discussion almost every year stating
> that email is dead. But email is just so unique in that it is
> imperfect, like us and I am not so sure that it will go quietly into the
> night anytime soon. Mailing lists however maybe will die, but the level
> of signal to noise is just so high on other platforms (which is why IRC
> never killed mailing lists..) that should a group allow their mailing
> list to die, or fall into disuse, it may affect the quality, diversity
> and activity of the group.
> 
> Regarding your issues with either mailman or smtp server, you do not
> seem to know or be sure: imo it is more probably the smtp server and
> also probably not the smtp server itself, but the settings and
> configuration policies of external free data providers.
> 
> Also, it is quite possible that the smtp server is behaving correctly
> by, for example rejecting your Sunday email - as the server your
> provider may have been using may have been a compromised server and
> could have been listed on RBL like Spamcop or sorbs DUL or some other
> high trust DROP list.
> 
> How these things are handled is different in different providers, but
> what works best is to simply drop everything from the hacked server.
> So, if for example a Google server becomes hacked and is pumping out
> malware with an email from Evan, it is all rejected or dropped,
> depending on policy.
> 
> It sounds like gtalug does not have policies supported by majority of
> users?
> 
> (Should Evans email from a blocked public server be bounced - or not -
> and which free block lists does gtalug trust and use for drop - how is
> drop handled (bounce or nay?) etc etc etc.
> 
> If you move the mailing list to Google you will also not have to worry
> about control or policies as these will be set by Google.
> 
> It also means that when there are REAL issues (You would not believe
> this but Google is not perfect...)
> 1. You will probably not know about it
> 2. You will not be able to do anything about it
> 3. You will probably not understand it
> 4. You will do 

Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[ac via talk]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 11:30:46 -0500
Evan Leibovitch  wrote:

> 
> We've had some very smart people running mailman and it still doesn't
> work to anyone's satisfaction. Or maybe it's our SMTP server, I don't
> know which one it is.
> 
So, this is the place to start.

When "directors" or "boards" or "leaders" make decisions on policy it
affects operations. Always. and many times it is "politics" and
"feelings" and without a proper understanding of the underlying real
issues.

Some background: Re Email: GOOGLE relays almost all of the email on the
planet, with Microsoft trailing in second place and the rest of the
planet as a small minority.

This has come about mainly because of the initial vast difference in
how abuse was handled in the past. Google and Microsoft simply
re-writes bounce messages or simply deletes/loses transmission. to be
fair most of the surviving email providers like myself, now does
exactly the same thing. We are all now lying as this is the new normal
and the other new normal is that whenever you receive any incoming relay
from Google or Microsoft there are gambling odds that it is rubbish.
Google wants and does relay vast amounts of electronic email BUT they
do not receive or act on abuse complaints via electronic mail :) 
Microsoft still receives abuse complaints via email, but, in my own
personal opinion: much of the submitted email abuse complaints are
meaningless and a waste of time.

Anyway Evan, you said that you tried sending an email to this list on
Sunday: I do not know if you received a bounce notification or if your
email just disappeared - but the nett result was probably that your
email to the list was not distributed. So, on my smtp servers what
happened would depend on the reason. For example if the Google server
Google used to relay your email was also hacked and sending out malware
not yet in anti virus strings, your email would just have silently been
deleted and you would not even have received a bounce notice - as Google
would have probably either deleted the bounce notification themselves or
they would have re-written it to something obtuse stating that failure
is due to an administrative prohibition at the recipient mail server (as
they never accept responsibility and always blame the victim for their
own abuse)

Also, I heard the first time in 1989 that email is dead, after that
there has been a thread or news discussion almost every year stating
that email is dead. But email is just so unique in that it is
imperfect, like us and I am not so sure that it will go quietly into the
night anytime soon. Mailing lists however maybe will die, but the level
of signal to noise is just so high on other platforms (which is why IRC
never killed mailing lists..) that should a group allow their mailing
list to die, or fall into disuse, it may affect the quality, diversity
and activity of the group.

Regarding your issues with either mailman or smtp server, you do not
seem to know or be sure: imo it is more probably the smtp server and
also probably not the smtp server itself, but the settings and
configuration policies of external free data providers.

Also, it is quite possible that the smtp server is behaving correctly
by, for example rejecting your Sunday email - as the server your
provider may have been using may have been a compromised server and
could have been listed on RBL like Spamcop or sorbs DUL or some other
high trust DROP list.

How these things are handled is different in different providers, but
what works best is to simply drop everything from the hacked server.
So, if for example a Google server becomes hacked and is pumping out
malware with an email from Evan, it is all rejected or dropped,
depending on policy.

It sounds like gtalug does not have policies supported by majority of
users? 

(Should Evans email from a blocked public server be bounced - or not -
and which free block lists does gtalug trust and use for drop - how is
drop handled (bounce or nay?) etc etc etc.

If you move the mailing list to Google you will also not have to worry
about control or policies as these will be set by Google. 

It also means that when there are REAL issues (You would not believe
this but Google is not perfect...) 
1. You will probably not know about it 
2. You will not be able to do anything about it 
3. You will probably not understand it 
4. You will do whatever Google says to resolve the issue
(Recently I had to create another @gmail account as part of the
"resolution" of a technical issue - and it took three weeks to
resolve...)
5. etc etc etc.

> The existing people on the Board have just become exhausted and the
> volunteers with the tech skills and keys to everything aren't always
> reachable. As volunteers I don't expect immediate tech support, but
> it just makes the process of constant firefighting more than we are
> prepared to bear.
> 
Well, I have also now volunteered. As I am in a different time zone
maybe this could help as I could be available when 

Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[William Park via talk]

Just give 2 choices: (1) Move to Google.  (2) You volunteer to run the 
legacy systems.  I can bet no one will volunteer.



On 2022-11-27 21:01, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

[Apologies if you received this message more than once]

Hello everyone,

By now you may have read or heard elsewhere about the announcement of 
the Annual General Meeting (AGM) for the Greater Toronto Linux User 
Group (GTALUG), to be held virtually 
 on Tuesday December 13.


Along with other AGM business, we will be discussing how GTALUG goes 
forward with our online services.


TL;DR: A number of the people who used to set up and run our online 
services (mainly the website and mailing lists) have left the GTALUG 
Board, and those who remain have neither the time to fix nor familiarity 
with the tools currently running these services.


As Google has provided to GTALUG its nonprofit services which include 
full access to commercial Google Workplace (formerly G Suite), the Board 
has been investigating migrating some of our online services there.


While to some such a move would be controversial, the status quo is 
unsustainable. So either we need new people to step forward to operate 
what exists, or we need to move to a service -- provided free of charge 
-- that can dramatically simplify operations.


The Board wants to have an open discussion on the issue before deciding, 
and the issue will be raised at the AGM. We look forward to hearing your 
views. While responses to this email will certainly be read, the full 
discussion will take place at the AGM.


Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56

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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

Hi Stewart,

On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 7:37 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk 
wrote:

>
>
> Could we make do with a hosted WordPress instance and move the lists to
> groups.io?
>

Thanks for the suggestion. I've looked into it .It might be nice, but we
can't afford it.

Much as the volume of discussion might not indicate, we have too many users
for the groups.io free level. Even at the minimum paid rate we'd have more
expenses than current revenue before even looking at hosted Wordpress
(which we probably wouldn't need because the provided groups.io wiki would
be enough for our website needs).

If everyone reading this email paid for a membership, this could be viable.
But we're nowhere near that.

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

Hi Erica.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 3:06 PM Erica Peterson 
wrote:

> Does anybody know anything about https://librelist.com/ for hosted
> Mailman lists?
>

That would be great to know, because the librelist.com website doesn't
itself seem to know this. The main page says what it is but there are no
links to use the service or get more info. Looking at the site map gives me
links to ... types of 55 gallon drums 
?

  If this is a reliable service it seems tailor made for this group.
>

The latest article I can find on the service is more than a decade old. It
was a one-person operation  that,
even when operating, did not have ease of use as a priority
.
Maybe it still operates but you need to learn the secret handshake. I have
no patience for such games. I would not consider this reliable.


> For the rest (website, forms/surveys, shareable calendar) you can pretty
> easily get a managed Wordpress (Namecheap is $66/year for example)
>

Not quite. The managed service usually gets you barebones Wordpress. Posts
and pages. Things like forms

and calendars  usually
require third-party plugins of assorted quality which we would be solely
responsible for choosing, installing and administering. I have far more
fear of WordPress module authors losing interest (which *has* badly burned
me in the past) than I have in Google discontinuing its nonprofit program.

In other words, "pretty easily" is ... subjective.

but in my (limited) experience, hosting providers that offer managed
> Wordpress often don't want to handle email discussion lists.
>

There's a good reason for that ;-).

Let's face it. Email discussion lists are legacy. They're cumbersome and
fighting a never-ending battle with spammers and phishers. The main server
software choices in current use are listserv (36 years old and proprietary)
or mailman (23 years old and FOSS), and you gotta find a host and suitable
admins. Plus we still need to maintain an SMTP server, along with anti-spam
tools such as RBL hooks which only add more complexity. As a result, most
third-party providers of list-based email services these days are
one-directional and campaign-based (ie Mailchimp), sources of spam rather
than fighters of it. I know very few people younger than 40 for whom email
is a preferred means to engage in discussion.

GTALUG has been experimenting with other tools such as a presence on
Discord, but email remains the preferred tool of people here for reasons I
can best ascribe to inertia. That's OK, but the effort to tame this email
beast, in its current form, is too much to bear for our limited resources.
(If I had my way we'd be a series of group chats on Signal). Google offers
a path for continuing to use email lists that we can live with.

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Erica Peterson via talk]

Does anybody know anything about https://librelist.com/ for hosted Mailman 
lists? If this is a reliable service it seems tailor made for this group.

For the rest (website, forms/surveys, shareable calendar) you can pretty easily 
get a managed Wordpress (Namecheap is $66/year for example), but in my 
(limited) experience, hosting providers that offer managed Wordpress often 
don't want to handle email discussion lists.

Cheers,
Erica

--- Original Message ---
On Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 11:30 AM, Evan Leibovitch via talk 
 wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 5:03 AM ac via talk  wrote:
>
>> to admin a vps or two with apache/nginx and mailman with a fewthousand? 
>> subscribers is, imnsho, not a major thing and in terms ofvps costs is maybe 
>> like 10 bucks a month (for two vps) if even two isreally needed
>
> The issue is not the server or its cost, but the care and feeding of web 
> services:
>
> - Email (multiple lists)
> - Aliases
>
> - Forms and surveys (*)
> - Website
> - Shareable calendar (*)
>
> The ones marked with (*) We would LIKE to do but don't yet have the tools 
> and/or time and/or smarts to do.
>
>> I have been on the mailing list for ten? years now and I do notremember any 
>> month where gtalug had any volume that exceeds what a fivebucks per month 
>> vps can carry and a properly configured mailman (whichis very mature and can 
>> be battle hardened)
>
> We've had some very smart people running mailman and it still doesn't work to 
> anyone's satisfaction. Or maybe it's our SMTP server, I don't know which one 
> it is.
>
> The existing people on the Board have just become exhausted and the 
> volunteers with the tech skills and keys to everything aren't always 
> reachable. As volunteers I don't expect immediate tech support, but it just 
> makes the process of constant firefighting more than we are prepared to bear.
>
>> cannot take more than anhour or two per month to admin.
>
> I can only tell you that this is nowhere near the effort required, which is 
> an insane amount of effort required for a small group like ours.
>
>>> Anything we host ourselves bears both admin resources and financial
>>> hosting cost. Right now we're using mailman and frankly, I see the
>>> bounce messages and it's almost impossible to keep track of.
>>> (Hint: I tried mailing this Sunday night but that bounced). I really
>>> don't like mailman anymore. There are better ways to filter spam.
>>>
>> if your own email to mailman is bouncing, this is probably not what you
>> think it is :)
>
> It probably isn't. But I'm tired of running after other people to diagnose.
>
>>> That said, I'm in no position to guarantee anything.
>>>
>> and this sentence is the crux of it. personally I do not trust google.
>
> I can't guarantee that I'll be alive tomorrow, either.
>
> There is no reason to believe that Google for Nonprofits is going away any 
> time this decade, and if there is I'd love to hear it. If they tried it, the 
> outcry from the charitable world would be deafening.
> There are many reasons and ways to mistrust Google; this isn't one of them.
>
>> it would be far easier to pay 10 bucks and get three sysadmins to eachdonate 
>> an hour a month (and their scripts :) )
>
> That's the whole point of this conversation. We're already paying a nominal 
> hosting fee and have volunteer sysadmins and things are still constantly 
> borked.
>
> IT IS NOT EASIER, let alone FAR easier, our real-world experience to date 
> bears that out.
>
>> so, if you decide to continue having an emailing list and self 
>> hostedservices I would gladly donate some of my time (at least fourhours a 
>> month [...]
>
> If all we had to do is threaten to move services to Google in order to get 
> more people to volunteer, we could have done that ages ago. We're well past 
> that. Your four hours a month are still very much valued, but we need that 
> energy for more things than just keeping things running -- especially when we 
> have an offer, at no cost, of commercial-grade online services.
>
>> providing that there is at least one (or two) otherhigh/senior skill 
>> dev/sys/ops also?
>
> See? Every volunteer effort comes with strings and limitations. So does mine. 
> So does that for everyone else on the Board.
> A group this small should not need to be spending so much of its 
> behind-the-scenes energy just herding cats. There's too much else to do that 
> isn't being done just so we can keep the virtual lights on.
> - Evan---
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 5:03 AM ac via talk  wrote:


> to admin a vps or two with apache/nginx and mailman with a few thousand?
> subscribers is, imnsho,  not a major thing and in terms of vps costs is
> maybe like 10 bucks a month (for two vps) if even two is really needed
>

The issue is not the server or its cost, but the care and feeding  of web
services:

   - Email (multiple lists)
   - Aliases
   - Forms and surveys (*)
   - Website
   - Shareable calendar (*)

The ones marked with (*) We would LIKE to do but don't yet have the tools
and/or time and/or smarts to do.

I have been on the mailing list for ten? years now and I do not remember
> any month where gtalug had any volume that exceeds what a five bucks per
> month vps can carry and a properly configured mailman (which is very
> mature and can be battle hardened)


We've had some very smart people running mailman and it still doesn't work
to anyone's satisfaction. Or maybe it's our SMTP server, I don't know which
one it is.

The existing people on the Board have just become exhausted and the
volunteers with the tech skills and keys to everything aren't always
reachable. As volunteers I don't expect immediate tech support, but it just
makes the process of constant firefighting more than we are prepared to
bear.

cannot take more than an hour or two per month to admin.


I can only tell you that this is nowhere near the effort required, which is
an insane amount of effort required for a small group like ours.


> > Anything we host ourselves bears both admin resources and financial
> > hosting cost. Right now we're using mailman and frankly, I see the
> > bounce messages and it's almost impossible to keep track of.
> > (Hint: I tried mailing this Sunday night but that bounced). I really
> > don't like mailman anymore. There are better ways to filter spam.
> >
> if your own email to mailman is bouncing, this is probably not what you
> think it is :)
>

It probably isn't. But I'm tired of running after other people to diagnose.

> That said, I'm in no position to guarantee anything.
> >
> and this sentence is the crux of it. personally I do not trust google.
>

I can't guarantee that I'll be alive tomorrow, either.
There is no reason to believe that Google for Nonprofits is going away any
time this decade, and if there is I'd love to hear it. If they tried it,
the outcry from the charitable world would be deafening.
There are many reasons and ways to mistrust Google; this isn't one of them.

it would be far easier to pay 10 bucks and get three sysadmins to each donate
> an hour a month (and their scripts :) )
>

That's the whole point of this conversation. We're already paying a nominal
hosting fee and have volunteer sysadmins and things are still constantly
borked.
IT IS NOT EASIER, let alone FAR easier, our real-world experience to date
bears that out.

so, if you decide to continue having an emailing list and self hosted services
> I would gladly donate some of my time (at least four hours a month [...]


If all we had to do is threaten to move services to Google in order to get
more people to volunteer, we could have done that ages ago. We're well past
that. Your four hours a month are still very much valued, but we need that
energy for more things than just keeping things running -- especially when
we have an offer, at no cost, of commercial-grade online services.

providing that there is at least one (or two) other high/senior skill
> dev/sys/ops also?
>

See? Every volunteer effort comes with strings and limitations. So does
mine. So does that for everyone else on the Board.
A group this small should not need to be spending so much of its
behind-the-scenes energy just herding cats. There's too much else to do
that isn't being done just so we can keep the virtual lights on.

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[ac via talk]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 03:39:51 -0500
Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 7:37 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk
>  wrote:
> > On 27/11/2022 21.01, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
> > Along with other AGM business, we will be discussing how GTALUG goes
> > forward with our online services.
> > I'm glad we're going to have this discussion. Chris Browne's
> > untimely passing two years ago showed how heavily GTALUG relied on
> > the work of a very few volunteers. And we do have a lot of online
> > services, including:
> >
> >- the website;
> >- the mailing lists and their various archives. Maintaining and
> >moderating a mailing list is no trivial thing;
> >- GTALUG Wiki — https://wiki.gtalug.org/start — which I don't
> > think anyone's touched for over two years.
> >
> > It might be worth re-evaluating what resources we need. Could we
> > make do with a hosted WordPress instance and move the lists to
> > groups.io? 
> All ideas are welcomed.
> 
to admin a vps or two with apache/nginx and mailman with a few
thousand? subscribers is, imnsho,  not a major thing and in terms of
vps costs is maybe like 10 bucks a month (for two vps) if even two is
really needed

I have been on the mailing list for ten? years now and I do not
remember any month where gtalug had any volume that exceeds what a five
bucks per month vps can carry and a properly configured mailman (which
is very mature and can be battle hardened) cannot take more than an
hour or two per month to admin. (that said, depending on configuration
it can be a full time job - but of course, I am basing the hour or two
on hardened configuration with some additional scripts, to do stuff
automagically - as I am very lazy) 

> Anything we host ourselves bears both admin resources and financial
> hosting cost. Right now we're using mailman and frankly, I see the
> bounce messages and it's almost impossible to keep track of.
> (Hint: I tried mailing this Sunday night but that bounced). I really
> don't like mailman anymore. There are better ways to filter spam.
>
if your own email to mailman is bouncing, this is probably not what you
think it is :)

> > Is GTALUG Inc a qualifying non-profit?
> >  
> 
> Yes. We've already been vetted by TechSoup *and* approved by Google.
> In fact we've had access to the Google nonprofit package for almost a
> year and could move things over to it at any time. The discussion at
> hand is whether we want to start really using it.
> 
> What happens when Google decides to stop providing this free service?
> >
> 
> Google had indeed been known to axe products and projects that didn't
> pan out as they'd hoped (I particularly mourn the loss of Google
> Cardboard and Google Reader). Google for Nonprofits
>  is unlikely to be one of them;
> it's actually very popular. A great many NPOs -- some of which are
> household names -- depend on that service. And with Alphabet being as
> insanely profitable as it is, the company is unlikely to jettison its
> primary CSR
>  tool.
> 
> That said, I'm in no position to guarantee anything.
>
and this sentence is the crux of it. personally I do not trust google.

very frequently the left hand and the right hand are independently
arguing with the right pinky toe over something the left ear heard the
mouth whisper while a strong wind was blowing.
 
it would be far easier to pay 10 bucks and get three sysadmins to each
donate an hour a month (and their scripts :) )

so, if you decide to continue having an emailing list and self hosted
services I would gladly donate some of my time (at least four
hours a month), providing that there is at least one (or two) other
high/senior skill dev/sys/ops also?

> Where does our data go? “If you are not paying for it, you're not the
> > customer; you're the product being sold.”*
> >  
> 
> In this case, it's not the case.
> 
> When you use basic personal GMail and Google Docs, you are most
> certainly giving up privacy in return for "free" services. But that's
> not what's on offer here. We have access to Google Workplace
>  (formerly known as G Suite) which is
> the commercial service that businesses use as a subscription-based
> productivity suite. In return for companies paying for Google
> Workplace, the company does not scan your data and it's subject to
> both Canadian and European privacy laws (after all, the apps
> themselves are pretty much the same as the free ones, what Workplace
> customers are paying for is privacy and support). What GTALUG has is
> a no-cost commercial license for Google Workplace (as well as other
> stuff including $10K worth of Google search advertising per month).
> So we have access to the commercial non-snooped service at no cost.
> 
> - Evan

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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 7:37 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk 
wrote:

> On 27/11/2022 21.01, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
>
>
> Along with other AGM business, we will be discussing how GTALUG goes
> forward with our online services.
>
> I'm glad we're going to have this discussion. Chris Browne's untimely
> passing two years ago showed how heavily GTALUG relied on the work of a
> very few volunteers. And we do have a lot of online services, including:
>
>- the website;
>- the mailing lists and their various archives. Maintaining and
>moderating a mailing list is no trivial thing;
>- GTALUG Wiki — https://wiki.gtalug.org/start — which I don't think
>anyone's touched for over two years.
>
> It might be worth re-evaluating what resources we need. Could we make do
> with a hosted WordPress instance and move the lists to groups.io?
>
All ideas are welcomed.

Anything we host ourselves bears both admin resources and financial hosting
cost. Right now we're using mailman and frankly, I see the bounce messages
and it's almost impossible to keep track of.
(Hint: I tried mailing this Sunday night but that bounced). I really don't
like mailman anymore. There are better ways to filter spam.

> Is GTALUG Inc a qualifying non-profit?
>

Yes. We've already been vetted by TechSoup *and* approved by Google. In
fact we've had access to the Google nonprofit package for almost a year and
could move things over to it at any time. The discussion at hand is whether
we want to start really using it.

What happens when Google decides to stop providing this free service?
>

Google had indeed been known to axe products and projects that didn't pan
out as they'd hoped (I particularly mourn the loss of Google Cardboard and
Google Reader). Google for Nonprofits 
is unlikely to be one of them; it's actually very popular. A great many
NPOs -- some of which are household names -- depend on that service. And
with Alphabet being as insanely profitable as it is, the company is
unlikely to jettison its primary CSR
 tool.

That said, I'm in no position to guarantee anything.

Where does our data go? “If you are not paying for it, you're not the
> customer; you're the product being sold.”*
>

In this case, it's not the case.

When you use basic personal GMail and Google Docs, you are most certainly
giving up privacy in return for "free" services. But that's not what's on
offer here. We have access to Google Workplace
 (formerly known as G Suite) which is the
commercial service that businesses use as a subscription-based productivity
suite. In return for companies paying for Google Workplace, the company
does not scan your data and it's subject to both Canadian and European
privacy laws (after all, the apps themselves are pretty much the same as
the free ones, what Workplace customers are paying for is privacy and
support). What GTALUG has is a no-cost commercial license for Google
Workplace (as well as other stuff including $10K worth of Google search
advertising per month). So we have access to the commercial non-snooped
service at no cost.

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 27/11/2022 21.01, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:


Along with other AGM business, we will be discussing how GTALUG goes 
forward with our online services.
I'm glad we're going to have this discussion. Chris Browne's untimely 
passing two years ago showed how heavily GTALUG relied on the work of a 
very few volunteers. And we do have a lot of online services, including:


 * the website;
 * the mailing lists and their various archives. Maintaining and
   moderating a mailing list is no trivial thing;
 * GTALUG Wiki — https://wiki.gtalug.org/start — which I don't think
   anyone's touched for over two years.

It might be worth re-evaluating what resources we need. Could we make do 
with a hosted WordPress instance and move the lists to groups.io?


As Google has provided to GTALUG its nonprofit services which include 
full access to commercial Google Workplace (formerly G Suite), the 
Board has been investigating migrating some of our online services there.
Is GTALUG Inc a qualifying non-profit? What happens when Google decides 
to stop providing this free service? Where does our data go? “If you are 
not paying for it, you're not the customer; you're the product being sold.”*


cheers,
 Stewart

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*: by blue_beetle on MetaFilter, Aug 2010 — 
https://www.metafilter.com/95152/Userdriven-discontent#3256046---
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[GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

[Apologies if you received this message more than once]

Hello everyone,

By now you may have read or heard elsewhere about the announcement of the
Annual General Meeting (AGM) for the Greater Toronto Linux User Group
(GTALUG), to be held virtually  on
Tuesday December 13.

Along with other AGM business, we will be discussing how GTALUG goes
forward with our online services.

TL;DR: A number of the people who used to set up and run our online
services (mainly the website and mailing lists) have left the GTALUG Board,
and those who remain have neither the time to fix nor familiarity with the
tools currently running these services.

As Google has provided to GTALUG its nonprofit services which include full
access to commercial Google Workplace (formerly G Suite), the Board has
been investigating migrating some of our online services there.

While to some such a move would be controversial, the status quo is
unsustainable. So either we need new people to step forward to operate what
exists, or we need to move to a service -- provided free of charge -- that
can dramatically simplify operations.

The Board wants to have an open discussion on the issue before deciding,
and the issue will be raised at the AGM. We look forward to hearing your
views. While responses to this email will certainly be read, the full
discussion will take place at the AGM.

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56
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[GTALUG] At the GTALUG AGM: How we handle Internet services

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

[Apologies if you received this message more than once]

Hello everyone,

By now you may have read or heard elsewhere about the announcement of the
Annual General Meeting (AGM) for the Greater Toronto Linux User Group
(GTALUG), to be held virtually  on
Tuesday December 13.

Along with other AGM business, we will be discussing how GTALUG goes
forward with our online services.

TL;DR: A number of the people who used to set up and run our online
services (mainly the website and mailing lists) have left the GTALUG Board,
and those who remain have neither the time to fix nor familiarity with the
tools currently running these services.

As Google has provided to GTALUG its nonprofit services which include full
access to commercial Google Workplace (formerly G Suite), the Board has
been investigating migrating some of our online services there.

While to some such a move would be controversial, the status quo is
unsustainable. So either we need new people to step forward to operate what
exists, or we need to move to a service -- provided free of charge -- that
can dramatically simplify operations.

The Board wants to have an open discussion on the issue before deciding,
and the issue will be raised at the AGM. We look forward to hearing your
views. While responses to this email will certainly be read, the full
discussion will take place at the AGM.

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56
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